Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[BkWurm1]

Skye used to make me want to claw my eyes out.  Oh lordy she was flat and dull and had no chemistry with her obvious love interest (Ward)  even IMO when he went EVIL.  She was at the forefront of all the happenings but I couldn't care less about her character.

There were two or three specific things that made me stop hating her.  The first was they let me FINALLY understand her.  There is a scene a bit more than a 1/3 of the way into the season where Skye sees the names of fallen SHEILD agents (they go to the academy for reasons) and she's a bit awed by the history and more than a bit mopey that she doesn't know her history but when against regulations Coulson decides to stop lying to her about the mystery of her parents, she one, stopped being petulant about what secrets are you keeping from me and two suddenly she reacted in a real way that I could relate to.  She discovered that she was a part of the grand history of SHEILD and suddenly why she was there made sense and at least for a moment, her dull flat acting had depth and resonated. 

There was one other thing that really earned my tolerance.  She tried being all spy-y when of course she is horribly under qualified and instead of miraculously pulling off her mission, she got gutted!!!!!  Yes, I for a short time thought maybe Whedon in his wisdom had killed her off but no, he instead used her near death to set off a journey that raised the interesting quotient for the rest of the show AND gave me a break from Skye for a few episodes (cause coma don't count as acting).

For some reason once she came back, I stopped resenting her.  I still think she's a weak actress but they stopped IMO treating her like that special snowflake and grounded her motivation in something more solid than Who am I?

Laurel needs something similar to happen at the very least to fix her.  The direction her character is going in doesn't make sense.  Her motivation to basically become her sister is such a mystery that I doubt there is a good reason. Laurel as a whole with her all over the place characterization doesn't make sense. She doesn't feel like a real person within the Arrow universe probably because of the wild personality swings.  That and her lack of consequences.  

I think a scene where Laurel tries to pull off the vigilante thing and fails miserably would do a great deal in pacifying well, at least me.  The show has to treat Laurel by the same standards that it treats the others and two years in, we are so not anywhere close to that yet.  IMO

[writersblock51]

 

I think a scene where Laurel tries to pull off the vigilante thing and fails miserably would do a great deal in pacifying well, at least me.  The show has to treat Laurel by the same standards that it treats the others and two years in, we are so not anywhere close to that yet.  IMO

 

This - I believe her lack of accountability and getting things literally handed to her (rather than earning) has led to a big disconnect between the character and fans.  While she lost her job, she got it back via blackmail.  Who can possibly relate to that and then root for her to succeed?

 

There do seem to be a different set of standards for her that also add to the disconnect.

[statsgirl]

But didn't they already try to do that with shooting the arrow in Streets of Fire?  We thought she would magically be able to use the bow but Oliver still had to talk her through it.

 

it looks like they're still trying to give her unearned things, like the leather jacket

and being Oliver's partner

.

[TanyaKay]

I just want a scene where John Diggle rips her apart because Laurel was trying to pull off something that she is not qualified/capable of. I just want that so bad. John Diggle, telling her how she cost it to the team and how her selfish behaviour is sucking the life out of everything because John Diggle is the only character who can carry self righteous indignation without sounding like a douche because he is so solid and moral and awesome.

[BkWurm1]

But didn't they already try to do that with shooting the arrow in Streets of Fire?  We thought she would magically be able to use the bow but Oliver still had to talk her through it.

 

And then she got his praise for doing such a great job.  I saw it more as 'hey with a little practice just imagine what you could do' rather than any kind of humbling experience. 

[wingster55]

That was more of a relief thing. Like "thanks for helping me"

Don't see how one needs to "earn" being Oliver's partner...no one else did really. Diggle and Felicity were recruited for reasons I sometimes don't understand. 

Not as though he tested their trustworthiness beforehand.

[apinknightmare]

Not as though he tested their trustworthiness beforehand.

 

Haha, seriously?

[wonderwall]

I like to believe that Diggle and Felicity were chosen not only for their expertise, but because Oliver could implicitly trust them. They didn't believe his crap, they called him out on it, and I think Oliver needed that. He needed partners who were always truthful to him and believed in his cause and had the potential to be great, and that's what Digg and Felicity were. Oliver recruited both of them because he could count on them and they've never let him down before he recruited them.

 

So yeah, Felicity and Digg earned their place on the team by being truthful and understanding Oliver. And it doesn't hurt that their 'resumes' were pretty fantastic. Digg earned his place by serving in the military for years and by guiding Oliver through his BS in the first season. Felicity earned her place by spending years hacking and working on computers. They're both experts in their own fields (Digg in warfare, Felicity in technology). 

 

It makes sense why he chose those two people. It doesn't make sense with Laurel because she has no expertise in helping the team during missions. Being a lawyer, her job comes after the mission, so her being in the arrow cave doesn't really make sense. Laurel and Oliver have had a past of mistrust and hate and betrayal that it doesn't make sense for them to be partners right now. And my problem is, is that the writers are going to glaze over the problems Oliver and Laurel have just to make them friends in order to make Laurel likable. And to be honest, Laurel isn't very trustworthy on her own. She was just about to blab about Oliver being the vigilante if it wasn't for Quentin... Laurel makes questionable decisions and that's a liability. 

[Angel12d]

Don't see how one needs to "earn" being Oliver's partner...no one else did really. Diggle and Felicity were recruited for reasons I sometimes don't understand. 

Not as though he tested their trustworthiness beforehand.

 

What?! I thought it was really obvious why Diggle and Felicity were recruited. They proved their worth in different endeavours (Digg with surveillance amongst other things, Felicity with her computer skills) and most importantly, they earned Oliver's trust. 

 

Oh, and to keep this comment on topic, I don't feel like Laurel has 'earned' a place on the team as much as the others because Oliver didn't tell her his secret. Slade did. I'm not as bothered by Laurel sometimes being in the foundry as some people but I don't see why Laurel suddenly has to be fully involved with the team just because she knows Oliver's secret.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Angel12d

[Chaser]

I don't think its that she has to earn her place to Oliver (I may disagree with the importance of her history with Oliver, but he doesn't). She has to earn her place in the eyes of the audience. In my opinion, it felt earned with Diggle and Felicity. 

 

Some may disagree but I would say the most in regards to Felicity because she knew he was full of BS but chose to trust him. She never told anyone, not even Walter. And she continued to assist him.

Edited September 12, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[wingster55]

I honestly believe that Oliver's main reason is because he didn't love either of them. Thea called Oliver on his crap. Tommy, even at his most "I hate Oliver" stage kept that secret to himself (he could have easily told Lance or some cop) so he was trustworthy. Why weren't they told? Because he loves them (and Moira)

The fact that they were competent came second. 

 

She was just about to blab about Oliver being the vigilante if it wasn't for Quentin.

 

I love that she was willing to throw Oliver under the bus..because she was only doing it for her father..I dislike it when tv characters choose love interests over family..so +1 for Laurel in my book.

 

Haha, seriously?

 

When did Felicity prove she could keep a big secret beforehand? Legit question.

[apinknightmare]

What?! I thought it was really obvious why Diggle and Felicity were recruited. They proved their worth in different endeavours (Digg with surveillance amongst other things, Felicity with her computer skills) and most importantly, they earned Oliver's trust. 

 

Seriously. Every single scene Felicity had with Oliver in the first half of S1 was about her earning his trust, which is exactly why he ended up in the back of her car when Moira shot him.

 

She could've gone to the police with the info she discovered while doing work for him numerous times (armored truck heists, anyone? tiny leather hit list book of doom, anyone?), but she didn't. She did the ridiculous things he asked her to because she trusted him for whatever reason, and in turn he grew to trust her.

I honestly believe that Oliver's main reason is because he didn't love either of them. Thea called Oliver on his crap. Tommy, even at his most "I hate Oliver" stage kept that secret to himself (he could have easily told Lance or some cop) so he was trustworthy. Why weren't they told? Because he loves them (and Moira)

The fact that they were competent came second. 

 

I love that she was willing to throw Oliver under the bus..because she was only doing it for her father..I dislike it when tv characters choose love interests over family..so +1 for Laurel in my book.

 

When did Felicity prove she could keep a big secret beforehand? Legit question.

 

If keeping a secret is the cornerstone of trustworthiness, then Oliver should be worried about Laurel, because the first thing she wanted to do when she found out he was Arrow was tell Quentin about it. Luckily he talked her out of it. 

 

But I answered your question above. She could've gone to the police after he gave her that fob with the armored truck heist info on it, she could've gone to the police with his father's book once she thought it might have had something to do with Walter's kidnapping, she could've gone to the police when he showed up with someone else's shot-up laptop. I'd say she's pretty good at staying tight-lipped, and she proved herself in that regard.

[wonderwall]

I'm not saying that it wasn't the right thing to do. No where did I say that. I'm just saying that for Laurel, team arrow isn't her first priority and rightly so. The fact that Laurel was willing to blab is a problem in itself. It was Quentin who was in jail and even he told Laurel not to tell him. Whereas it is Felicity and John's first priority. They put the mission first. Felicity even said that the team took over her life at some point.

 

So you think Oliver would've recruited Thea? A 17 year old? Felicity and John calling Oliver on his shit isn't the only reason he recruited them. I thought I made that quite clear :/ It was just a part of the reason why. 

 

I believe Felicity had proven herself by helping Arrow even though she could tell he was dropping ridiculous lies on him. She didn't ask any questions, she didn't spy on Oliver because of the lies. And even though he did lie to her, she still trusted him. She gave him back the book full of names, she helped Oliver from that gun shot wound, she helped Oliver on multiple occasions... She proved to be a real asset for the team

[Angel12d]

I honestly believe that Oliver's main reason is because he didn't love either of them. Thea called Oliver on his crap. Tommy, even at his most "I hate Oliver" stage kept that secret to himself (he could have easily told Lance or some cop) so he was trustworthy. Why weren't they told? Because he loves them (and Moira)

The fact that they were competent came second. 

 

I love that she was willing to throw Oliver under the bus..because she was only doing it for her father..I dislike it when tv characters choose love interests over family..so +1 for Laurel in my book.

 

When did Felicity prove she could keep a big secret beforehand? Legit question.

 

I actually think their competence came first. The fact that he didn't love them maybe aided in that but I doubt very much it was the first reason, otherwise he could have chosen any old person outside his main circle of family and friends. He chose them specifically for their skills. It's kind of ironic though considering he loves Diggle and Felicity now, after everything.

 

And Felicity proved she was trustworthy when she didn't spill every single one of his stupid lies/cover stories and continued to help him, without question.

 

 

Seriously. Every single scene Felicity had with Oliver in the first half of S1 was about her earning his trust, which is exactly why he ended up in the back of her car when Moira shot him.

 

She could've gone to the police with the info she discovered while doing work for him numerous times (armored truck heists, anyone? tiny leather hit list book of doom, anyone?), but she didn't. She did the ridiculous things he asked her to because she trusted him for whatever reason, and in turn he grew to trust her.

 

I know. The only reason Oliver chose Felicity's car after Moira shot him was because he knew he could trust her after everything she had done for him beforehand. Every scene led to that moment and every scene after just built and strengthened it.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Angel12d

[willpwr]

Seriously. Every single scene Felicity had with Oliver in the first half of S1 was about her earning his trust, which is exactly why he ended up in the back of her car when Moira shot him.

 

She could've gone to the police with the info she discovered while doing work for him numerous times (armored truck heists, anyone? tiny leather hit list book of doom, anyone?), but she didn't. She did the ridiculous things he asked her to because she trusted him for whatever reason, and in turn he grew to trust her.

Not only that but she risked jail time by doing it. Lance caught her and could have had her arrested instead of just questioned for hacking. Every time Oliver went up to her and asked her to do something, she took a risk, sure he was her boss but that doesn't give him the right to get her mixed up in illegal activity. I think it speaks highly of her character that both Walter and Oliver trusted her with secrets. I am reminded of this when I take into account how she spoke directly to Moira about her secret, she didn't try to blackmail her unlike how others tend to resolve issues *ahem* but was direct and honest with Moira, she risked losing Oliver as a friend because she couldn't hide a secret from him.

 

As for Laurel needing Slade to tell her that Oliver is the vigilante because she couldn't figure it out on her own after having worked with him, I'm reminded of this interview with Andrew Kreisberg:

But it was Moira's surprising admission that she knew of Oliver's secret life as the vigilante that was eyebrow-raising. "We had always talked about the idea that Moira knew Oliver was the Arrow," Kreisberg said, revealing that there were "a couple of other places" where the producers thought Moira should inform Oliver. But he pointed to a pivotal scene in "Sacrifice," where Oliver essentially talks to his mother as the Arrow amid the Undertaking, as her moment of revelation. "She'd be borderline low IQ if she wasn't like, 'Wait a minute!' We liked that she had never told him, and everything just felt like it came together in this one episode."

[wingster55]

Ok point made. 

If keeping a secret is the cornerstone of trustworthiness, then Oliver should be worried about Laurel, because the first thing she wanted to do when she found out he was Arrow was tell Quentin about it.

 

That's not why she was gonna tell the secret, as I mentioned above. 

 

"She'd be borderline low IQ if she wasn't like, 'Wait a minute!'

 

It's not that she'd have a low one..it's because she's smarter than EVERYONE. 

Edited September 12, 2014 by wingster55

[wonderwall]

The problem I had with Laurel telling Quentin about Oliver being the Arrow as that she didn't even think about the ramifications of telling Quentin. She just said "I know who it is let me tell you". She didn't try to think of another way, she wanted the easy way out and leave everyone else screwed. Laurel is terrible at making decisions, and in the past few seasons, I think it's blatantly clear that Laurel's decision making skills is a huge issue that usually screws people over. It's not that Laurel didn't have a reason to tell people (as everyone will at some point, Felicity had reason to sell Oliver out in season 1 but instead called him a hero in the police department), it's that she didn't think things through and nearly ruined what Oliver slaved for ever since he came back. Thank god for Quentin. 

[dtissagirl]

And trust has to go both ways. It's not enough that just Oliver is trusting them. The people he chose had to trust him back. Diggle had to take some time after he learned Oliver's secret to wrap his head around it, and he had to choose to trust Oliver. Felicity explicity says that Oliver is lying to her face all the time and still she could trust him.

Nobody Oliver knew pre-island really trusted Oliver after he came back. Thea knew he was hiding something, Laurel says a bunch of stuff to his face about him never being able to be a hero when he was on trial, Tommy was always worried about Oliver and Laurel's history.

[wingster55]

Sometimes we're irrational when dealing with those we love. In the case of Laurel and Quentin...she loves him more than anyone I believe. So when she learned that selling Oliver out would help her father out..she of course was irrational about it.

 

I really can't blame her..I would have no hesitation in her position. Parents/sister above all.

 

Thea knew he was hiding something, Laurel says a bunch of stuff to his face about him never being able to be a hero when he was on trial, Tommy was always worried about Oliver and Laurel's history.

 

How does Thea knowing he's a liar = her not trusting him?

Tommy didn't trust Laurel more than Oliver. For the secret/hood...I'd say he more then earned his trustworthiness. 

Edited September 12, 2014 by wingster55

[wonderwall]

Another reason why Laurel would never really be able to fit into the team: She never listens to anyone. And that's a big problem especially when her not listening to people puts herself and the people around her in life/death situations. I get that Laurel is independent. But that's not how being a part of a team works. And to be honest, I don't think I can take her dismissing Felicity and Digg to have a conversation about something that doesn't need to be conversed in private... 

[wingster55]

And to be honest, I don't think I can take her dismissing Felicity and Digg to have a conversation about something that doesn't need to be conversed in private

 

Dismissing is a bit of an exaggeration I think.

Not like she flourished her arms and said "be gone peasants" 

[dtissagirl]

How does Thea knowing he's a liar = her not trusting him?

I can only speak for myself obvi, but if I know someone's lying my AUTOMATIC REACTION is NOT to trust them.

Edited September 12, 2014 by dancingnancy

[wonderwall]

Sometimes we're irrational when dealing with those we love. In the case of Laurel and Quentin...she loves him more than anyone I believe. So when she learned that selling Oliver out would help her father out..she of course was irrational about it.

 

I really can't blame her..I would have no hesitation in her position. Parents/sister above all.

I really get this, I really really do. But if you compare, everyone else was willing to sacrifice a whole lot to keep Oliver's persona as the Arrow alive. Felicity was willing to sacrifice her relationship with Oliver (someone really important to her) and potentially her status on the team which at that point probably took over her entire life by telling Oliver the truth about Thea. Diggle is willing to sacrifice being there for his family and possibly dying for the team and the cause. Roy sacrificed his relationship with Thea (possibly the only person he really loved) for the Arrow and so on... 

 

Almost all of them have made sacrifices, hell, even Quentin made sacrifices by telling Laurel to keep his identity a secret. However, Laurel has never really made that sacrifice on her own. That's what's disconcerting. 

[quarks]

Not like she flourished her arms and said "be gone peasants"

 

 

Let's not put ideas of a Reign/Arrow crossover into anyone's head.

[TanyaKay]

I really can't blame her..I would have no hesitation in her position. Parents/sister above all.

 

Parents sister above all else?

Really?

 

In first season, she went against her father's wishes to collude with vigilante and then did not talk to him for many episodes when he tried to use her connection to catch the vigilante, she also taunted him of his past alcoholism of many times which a loving responsible daughter would never do, esp considering the reasons of his descent into alcoholism.  

 

And the less said about her love for her sister the better.

First, she was not happy that her sister came back from dead after six years and hurled an exploding glass to her face and accused her of cheating her life! I mean WTF?

 

Secondly, Laurel did not give a rat's ass about her sister when she Slade told her about Oliver and she found out the secret of them being secret super heroes, she went to see Oliver and told him that he is important to her and not to her sister which was rather odd considering she just made up with her like 3 episodes back.

 

Laurel is the worst character ever, if I ever came across someone like that in real life, I would make sure to stay as far as possible.

[Chaser]

I have a lot of issues with Laurel but her willingness to give up Oliver to save her father was not one of that.

 

She should have gone to Oliver and told him she knew and try to convince him to save her father before going to her Dad. It would have played better. But still, I would throw anyone under the bus to save my family.

[wonderwall]

Dismissing is a bit of an exaggeration I think.

Not like she flourished her arms and said "be gone peasants" 

Webster's dictionary: 

dis·miss: to send (someone) away : to cause or allow (someone) to leave -- which is exactly what she did when she asked them to leave

 

While I don't think she treated Felicity and Digg like scum, I think it was a bit hasty for her to ask them to leave considering they're Oliver's partners and they're ridiculously worried about him. 

Edited September 12, 2014 by wonderwall

[catrox14]

I've been telling all y'all that Laurel is going to steal her sister's life. That is in no way a look of admiration. It's a "you bitch, I am so going to be you".

 

It's kind of interesting .I read another blog and I've seen discussion that Laurel is all about wanting to live up to her sister's model and that she just doesn't think she's good enough.

 

And all I can think of is that look that Laurel has in the gif posted above that is so not about emulating from admiration but emulation because CRAZY.

[apinknightmare]

 

I love that she was willing to throw Oliver under the bus..because she was only doing it for her father..I dislike it when tv characters choose love interests over family..so +1 for Laurel in my book.

 

This is precisely why Oliver should be wary of partnering up with her in any kind of endeavor. She was pro-Arrow, then anti-Arrow, she tried to have him arrested, then she found out who he was and realized why she "always felt this connection," then she thought about revealing him to save her father, then she knew him like she knew her own name, now she seems to be "Go Team, Go!" Where will she land next?

 

If there's anyone who has proven themselves to be wishy-washy and untrustworthy where Arrow's concerned, it's Laurel.

[wingster55]

 

I can only speak for myself obvi, but if I know someone's lying my AUTOMATIC REACTION is NOT to trust them.

But even then Thea never showed signs of distrust until his lies were actually exposed in s2

 

I really get this, I really really do. But if you compare, everyone else was willing to sacrifice a whole lot to keep Oliver's persona as the Arrow alive. Felicity was willing to sacrifice her relationship with Oliver (someone really important to her) and potentially her status on the team which at that point probably took over her entire life by telling Oliver the truth about Thea. Diggle is willing to sacrifice being there for his family and possibly dying for the team and the cause. Roy sacrificed his relationship with Thea (possibly the only person he really loved) for the Arrow and so on...

Almost all of them have made sacrifices, hell, even Quentin made sacrifices by telling Laurel to keep his identity a secret. However, Laurel has never really made that sacrifice on her own. That's what's disconcerting.

 

Felicity's potential sacrifice wasn't going to affect Oliver's life as the Arrow. Neither does Roy's. Diggle's...kinda does. Quentin is the only one who did...and possibly only because Sara was also a vigilante. 

 

Parents sister above all else?

Really?

 

That was my own personal stance actually.

Edited September 12, 2014 by wingster55

[willpwr]

In The Man Under the Hood after Quentin was arrested, Laurel kept asking him if he knew who the Vigilante was, that appeared to be her primary concern, that her father knew, not that he was in jail, now I may be wrong but that's how it came across to me. She later saw her sister's scars in the hospital, she saw the sacrifices Sara and Oliver were making, how they were risking their lives on a daily basis. She then met Oliver as the hood on a rooftop and talked about how he had always been there for her, etc, while on the roof she got the call about Quentin. When she arrived at the hospital she asked Sara to leave, knowing Sara was the woman in the mask aka the other vigilante. If Quentin admitted to knowing who one of the vigilantes is and the police know there are 2, is it not reasonable to determine that  Quentin would have to name both of them? Why did she ask Sara to leave knowing she was in on the secret and it was partly her secret to tell, not Laurel's? 

[wonderwall]

I guess the point I was making is that Roy, Diggle, Oliver, Felicity, and Quentin all made sacrifices for the team. They didn't take the easy way out of their issues thus affecting their status on the team or affecting the team itself. Laurel was willing to take the easy way out without much consideration. There was no internal struggle, there was nothing. She was just automatically okay with releasing that information and that's not a sign of a good team member. IDK if I'm articulating my thoughts properly, I mean it all makes sense in my head but when I type it out it probably doesn't :p 

[statsgirl]

I thought it was really obvious why Diggle and Felicity were recruited. They proved their worth in different endeavours (Digg with surveillance amongst other things, Felicity with her computer skills) and most importantly, they earned Oliver's trust.

I just want to emphasize this.  Both Diggle and Felicity had skills sets that Oliver needed.  Tommy and Thea didn't.  Roy chose to join on his own before he even know who Oliver was.  Laurel's skill set, being a lawyer, puts her on the opposite side of The Vigilante.

 

Not only that but she risked jail time by doing it. Lance caught her and could have had her arrested instead of just questioned for hacking. Every time Oliver went up to her and asked her to do something, she took a risk, sure he was her boss but that doesn't give him the right to get her mixed up in illegal activity.

The other big plus that Felicity had was that she believed Oliver was a hero, and Diggle too believed he was doing the right thing and making a difference, which is why he joined him.

 

Laurel kep flip-flopping but much of the time she believed that The Hood/The Arrow was a killer.  It's impossible that Oliver could trust her with his secret under those conditions.

 

Let's not put ideas of a Reign/Arrow crossover into anyone's head.

 

Now that Moira is gone, I'd love to see Megan Follows do her evil queen on Arrow.

[BkWurm1]

Now that Moira is gone, I'd love to see Megan Follows do her evil queen on Arrow.

 

Megan Follows will always be Anne Shirley to me. I think she and Felicity would be pals. 

[wingster55]

Tommy and Thea didn't.

 

I disagree...Tommy could help Oliver with the 1%ers as well as not arising suspicion when doing field work for Oliver/being with Oliver as they're BFFs.

Damn it, I miss Tommy! 

Thea has wicked aim

[Orion]

That was more of a relief thing. Like "thanks for helping me"

Don't see how one needs to "earn" being Oliver's partner...no one else did really. Diggle and Felicity were recruited for reasons I sometimes don't understand. 

Not as though he tested their trustworthiness beforehand.

 

It doesn't really matter whether the viewer believes that a partnership is earned, the story does believe that. The writers have been extremely clear that when Oliver declares Diggle and than Felicity his partners these are big character moments. They are both accompanied by hand shakes and intimate blocking - a close up on the two people shaking hands. They make sure that Oliver is the one to declare them partners, equals in this crusade.  Both of these scenes are designed to show the importance of Felicity and Diggle in Oliver's mission.  They have earned their place and their voice on Team Arrow because that's what the story conveys and the writers show us that by not having Oliver immediately welcome them to the cave and call them his partners. It comes over the course of several episodes. Partner to the Arrow writers means a bond and a trust between all of them.

 

To me it's very telling that Oliver is the one to call Felicity and Diggle his partners while in the S3 promo

Laurel calls herself Oliver's partner.

It's the difference between being invited to the party and showing up without being invited.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Orion

[TanyaKay]

To me it's very telling that Oliver is the one to call Felicity and Diggle his partners while in the S3 promo

Laurel calls herself Oliver's partner.

It's the difference between being invited to the party and showing up without being invited.

 

You have put the argument to bed in a very succinct manner. Thank you

[blixie]

 

Roy, Diggle, Oliver, Felicity, and Quentin all made sacrifices for the team.

But Laurel was distinctly not part of the team, so I don't think it's really a fair or useful comparison, I don't see any reason why after being alienated from Oliver for almost two years she should suddenly prioritize his vigilante agenda over her father's well being.

 

I tend to agree with wingster55 that a significant part of Diggle, Felicity, and Roy being recruited for Team Arrow, had to do with his lack of prior attachment to them, though I think their competence and demonstrated trustworthiness was what inspired him to accept/pursue their help. While supposedly Quentin doesn't know who Arrow is, he was still embraced as an active ally by Oliver, and he eventually embraced the Team/cause in his own time.

 

There are so many reasons to dislike Laurel, this just isn't one of mine.

[Password]

I don't think Laurel can be blamed for trying to get her dad free. Oliver was pretty much lying to her from the get go so she owed him nothing. At the same time, does that make Laurel reliable for Arrow? Nope. But it's certainly not something I hold against her.

I was annoyed that Laurel's reaction to finding out about him being the Arrow wasn't filled with more fireworks. Oliver lied to Laurel constantly. He certainly deserved go be railed on.

[KirkB]

Laurel kept flip-flopping but much of the time she believed that The Hood/The Arrow was a killer.  It's impossible that Oliver could trust her with his secret under those conditions.

 

Actually, the Arrow WAS a killer. Oliver had taken it upon himself to kill anyone he thought deserved it.

 

I'll come back to Laurel in a moment but I also want to address Oliver recruiting Diggle and Felicity. While it's true Diggle proved himself, he was Oliver's bodyguard at first and wouldn't leave Oliver alone. Oliver pretty much had to let him help since he was going to be in the way and the only other option would have been to kill him. The fact he had phenomenal skills of his own was a bonus. As for Felicity, I have never been able to understand why he (or Walter for that matter) chose her to help him in the beginning. She was, as far as we have have ever shown, just a random IT person. How is it the two of them (Walter and Oliver), on separate occasions and for separate reasons, happened to choose the exact same person?

 

Back on topic. The only reason for Verdant to exist is because of the lair. They presumably spent a fair amount of money on the Arrowlair set and are going to want to keep using it but it doesn't HAVE to still be under Verdant. They could build one somewhere else. Laurel may help Oliver, from a legal perspective, start trying to take QC back and continue his nocturnal activities. The more she is involved, even if it is just in a paper pushing sense, the more Laurel is going to consider herself a part of the team because that is just who she is. But just because Laurel says (or thinks) she is on team Arrow doesn't necessarily mean she is, at least not until she finally gets fitted with the black mask and fishnets. And unlike Sara, I imagine she will actually wear the fishnets because she would want to be able to show off her legs. I'm just hoping it won't be any time soon.

Edited September 12, 2014 by KirkB

[willpwr]

It's not just Oliver's agenda, it's her sister's as well. It's her father's in a way, after he started working with the vigilante and changed his stance on him, he knew what he was risking and he chose to continue to do so because he believed in what he was doing. Telling Oliver's secret wasn't Laurel's right, she could have asked Oliver to turn himself in when she got the call about Quentin, he was there, she could have told him she knew, instead she decided to go behind his back, asked her sister to leave (knowing her sister was the other vigilante) and tried to tell her father Oliver's secret which would have had consequences for Oliver, her sister and in turn, her father as well, who would have been turning in his other daughter to the police.

Actually, the Arrow WAS a killer. Oliver had taken it upon himself to kill anyone he thought deserved it.

She was well aware of that from the beginning but lauded him as a good guy anyway because he was helping her. It was only after she saw him kill in person that she changed her mind and went from number 1 fan to hating him.

[Sakura12]

The biggest issue I have with Laurel is she wasn't invited to be in on the secret. She was told about Oliver's identity by the villain (stupidly imo, but most every thing involving Laurel tends to be stupid or forced). Oliver choose to trust Diggle and Felicity and invite them into his secret life. He choose to show Tommy who he was (even if it was a last second save. He had plenty of times to do that with Laurel and choose not to) and while Sara already knew he was the Arrow from his wearing Shado's hood, Oliver choose to bring her into the lair and meet his team. Those are the people he trusted with his secret and his mission.

 

We can't say he didn't have emotional attachment to Tommy and Sara. Tommy was his best friend since he was kid. Sara was with him on the hellish island.

 

Laurel wasn't chosen to be in on the secret. When she found out she immediately was going to turn him in, then she forced her way on to the team. None of them even wanted her there, they told her stay behind. But of course being Laurel she didn't listen. Basically Laurel's only there because she's supposed to be the lead female and supposed to be a hero someday because the comics say so. Which is why I have a hard time buying her involvement I don't see it as a natural progression of the story we've seen so far. I see it as forced because the actors contract says so.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Sakura12

[Chaser]

Its the lack of organic progression with Laurel. I thought Slade telling her was high schoolish. It felt more like they were letting Laurel in on the secret because they were having such trouble making her relevant to the story as a whole.  Which I understand because it did her character no favors constantly being shoe horned into the A-Plot, but it didn't feel natural. It became about fixing HER and not about the story.

 

I hope that makes sense.

[statsgirl]

Among the reasons why Oliver didn't tell Laurel he was The Hood, I think guilt would be a bigger factor than love.  It's true that he didn't tell anyone he had known before the island but I don't think that's because he only told people he didn't love.  When he first came back, Oliver pushed everyone from his past away, not because he loved them but because he couldn't love any more.  He pushed Laurel away especially hard , maybe because he felt guilty and maybe partly because he felt he was a monster now and she shouldn't be near him.

I disagree...Tommy could help Oliver with the 1%ers as well as not arising suspicion when doing field work for Oliver/being with Oliver as they're BFFs.

Damn it, I miss Tommy! 

Thea has wicked aim

 

I miss Tommy too.

I don't want to be argumentative but how could Tommy have helped the crusade?  Oliver had his list of names and he was taking them down one by one.  He brought on Diggle because he needed a partner, Digg had fighting skills and was okay with killing. He brought on Felicity because she had tech skills no one else had and she wanted to find Walter.  

 

Not to mention, we saw how horrified Tommy was when he realized Oliver was the  Arrow, unlike Diggle who was okay with killing.  I can't see how or why Oliver would have told Tommy and asked him to  help.  Unlike Oliver, Tommy was pretty okay with the 1% and when Oliver returned, he was still a party boy.

 

Thea was 17, and still a child, not only in Oliver's eyes but emotionally as well. To tell her about his crusade, much less recruit her to kill, would have been very wrong, like making his little sister into a child soldier?

Actually, the Arrow WAS a killer. Oliver had taken it upon himself to kill anyone he thought deserved it.

And just about everyone who found out that he was a killer rejected him.  Both Laurel and Tommy rejected him, Tommy as a friend and Laurel as a hero object.  Diggle rejected him at first until Oliver convinced him it was the right thing to do and Felicity stayed but kept pushing  him not to kill.

 

The only people who seemed okay with it were Moira and Sara, both of whom had got their own hands dirty. Why didn't Oliver tell Moira what he was doing?  He thought she was good and innocent, and when he found out she wasn't, he couldn't trust her.

 

As for Felicity, I have never been able to understand why he (or Walter for that matter) chose her to help him in the beginning. She was, as far as we have have ever shown, just a random IT person. How is it the two of them (Walter and Oliver), on separate occasions and for separate reasons, happened to choose the exact same person?

It's usually fanwanked that Walter recommended Felicity to Oliver as an IT person who was very good at her job. On the show, Oliver went to Felicity first and presumably when the EPs decided they wanted to keep Felicity on, they started writing her IT things to do for Walter because it's several episodes till Oliver comes back to her again.

 

 

The more she is involved, even if it is just in a paper pushing sense, the more Laurel is going to consider herself a part of the team because that is just who she is. But just because Laurel says (or thinks) she is on team Arrow doesn't necessarily mean she is, at least not until she finally gets fitted with the black mask and fishnets. And unlike Sara, I imagine she will actually wear the fishnets because she would want to be able to show off her legs. I'm just hoping it won't be any time soon.

Good point, Laurel would want to show off her legs. (Which is another reason why she shouldn't be on the team, but that's another issue.)

 

There is being on the team, and there is being a help to the team like Commissioner Gordon or Quentin Lance, someone you can go to when you need their help but who is not involved in the core organization and discussions.  I can see why Laurel/KC would want to think of herself as being a partner on the team, that's where the cool kids are,  

 

But I really hope she stays on the sidelines instead for a number of reasons  For starters, she's sworn to uphold the law, not go around it, and Laurel has trouble with going against her creed unless it's about getting something for herself.  Emotionally Laurel is a bad fit on Team Arrow.  She's too volatile, it's all love/hate with her, and she's too self-centered and doesn't follow orders. unlike Diggle who will tell Oliver when he disagrees with him but puts it aside to let Oliver lead.  She really should be the sort of character who knows about the team, who brings them problems to fix, and who helps them bring down the bad guys by prosecuting them.

 

The only reason for Laurel to be part of the inner circle of the lair is Comics! and that would make for bad storytelling.  

[Starfish35]

I think it would have helped Laurel in season two if she'd found about about Sara being alive much much earlier. Well, actually I think bringing Sara back at all was a mistake as far as Laurel was concerned, but let's run with it as a given for the moment. The writers said when the news about Sara broke that this was still all about Laurel's journey. Except that's not the way it played out on screen. As much as I love the character, it did end up turning into the Season of Sara, and Laurel ended up first sidelined, then later after she did find out, playing supporting character to Sara rather than the other way around.

If they'd had Laurel find out about Sara much much earlier in the season, and have that be her arc instead of the addiction arc, I think it might have worked better. Selfishly I'm kind of glad they didn't because we got some great father/daughter Quentin/Sara stuff, but from a standpoint of what would have helped Laurel more, having her find out rather than Quentin would have wrapped her into the season arc more easily, and would have made an eventual reveal about Oliver more organic feeling if she already knew about Sara. Doing it the way they did meant that Laurel was just off in the sidelines doing her own thing until they contrived a way to include her in the main story arc, and the fact that she was so long clueless to everything going on around her meant that her supposedly inspirational speech in City of Blood made her look completely ridiculous and out of touch with reality.

A season long sister bonding arc might possibly also have helped make the eventual (inevitable?) transition more palatable. Right now Laurel as far as we know is clueless about what it is her sister is involved in and what it's really cost her. But if she'd been involved early on when Sara was still running from the LoA - I wonder how that might have changed things. I loved seeing a protective Quentin determined to protect his daughter, but Laurel as a protective big sister might have made me like Laurel a little bit more (unless they'd made her a damsel to be rescued).

Which brings me to another point. I'm baffled by KC's statements that the director didn't want her to look too capable with the shotgun or whatever it was. WHY??? Why would they be so opposed to their future Black Canary already being a bit badass? That's been one of my complaints about the character in the first place - why not give her a background in martial arts, or police/military training, or something? Why the hell did they want her to start completely from ground zero, so far behind Oliver?

This is pretty much what I mean when I say that pretty much every single decision they've made with Laurel completely baffles me.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Starfish35

[SmallScreenDiva]

Dismissing is a bit of an exaggeration I think.

Not like she flourished her arms and said "be gone peasants" 

 

I'd just watched that scene again and it really comes across as a dismissal. It's in the tone of her voice, in the way she played the beats. She said, "Will you give us a moment?" Both Digg and Felicity hesitated a little, and she just stared at them until they moved. Obviously it's not in the script, but some kind of softening in her body language toward D and F would have helped. Maybe an apologetic smile? Something! Of course, it doesn't help that she put herself right in between Oliver and Felicity, and the latter had to move (or get out of the way). I don't know what the director is playing at with that kind of blocking (well, I actually think I do know what the director was trying to show. He wasn't exactly subtle). I really wish the writers at least added a "please" in there. Might have helped.

[Chaser]

I'ver always thought that Sara's arc should have been tied more to Laurel and less Oliver and the Team. I think if they had dropped the addiction storyline with Laurel and made her arc be about reconnecting with Sara and her father, it would have done wonders for her character.  Because Sara was tied into all these A-Plot lines, it felt more like she was lead and her personal story was reconnecting with her father and achololic sister.

 

If they had let Laurel take the lead, I could see her finding out about Oliver through Sara. I think that would have worked better.

[Chaser]

I can understand why she would want to speak to Oliver privately; He was the only one she knew (or thinks she knows). However, KC should have played the scene a little unsure; Laurel didn't know the dynamic of the team at the time or the general environment she was walking into. She should have softened her approach.

 

The blocking though really did her characters no favors. To show her physically placing herself between Oliver and Diggle/Felicity was a bad call. 

[Password]

I'ver always thought that Sara's arc should have been tied more to Laurel and less Oliver and the Team. I think if they had dropped the addiction storyline with Laurel and made her arc be about reconnecting with Sara and her father, it would have done wonders for her character.  Because Sara was tied into all these A-Plot lines, it felt more like she was lead and her personal story was reconnecting with her father and achololic sister.

I reckon in their attempts to keep BC and GA in each other's hair, they missed a real opportunity for character growth for both sisters. Theirs, in my opinion, is still a broken relationship. In the end it did feel far more like they were telling Sara's story, even allowing Laurel to apologise and bless Oliver and Sara's relationship. I don't know if the writers and EPs lost their way a little because people really liked Sara, or if it was intentional to sideline Laurel, but they did a bang up job. Maybe the EPs fell in love with Sara for a while, who knows.

If anything, I really hope SOMETHING positive, organic and unforced happens in their sisterly relationship.. They've both really hurt one another. Sara getting back together with Oliver, then attending that dinner still leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

If they really are pursuing the BC angle only, and not love interest too, I hope the EPs do Laurel justice and write something consistent for her. If it just ends up being Laurel wondering if she can be her sister, then what's the point. It may come off differently in the comics when the mother seemingly passes the baton to the daughter. But little sister to older just seems strange and contrived and BECAUSE COMICS.

The blocking though really did her characters no favors. To show her physically placing herself between Oliver and Diggle/Felicity was a bad call.

I agree, made even worse by Felicity having to move away.

[foreverevolving]

In all honesty the entire scene was constructed wrong from the second we saw Laurel. from the way she "entered" into Oliver line of sight (such as that horrible music, and the way katie is strutting!). personally i feel if Katie would have went with a small stuttering when she's asking them to "give them a moment" can. (pause for a second) can you give us a moment. please." or would have asked "would you mind giving us a second?", maybe play with her fingers as she's asking to show a bit of nervousness or a similar emotion it would have made it come across more nicely.