Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[wonderwall]

I have problems with Laurel learning of Oliver and Sara's fate as well, although I suppose my reasoning is a tad different.

 

Laurel learning about Oliver: The second we saw Laurel find out about Oliver, she was at CNRI and saw that he was alive on the news, something of which everyone was watching. What initially made me feel like there was something off about Laurel was that there was no surprise on her face, she wasn't shocked about Oliver being alive, all we saw from KCs interpretation of her was that Laurel went from indifferent to angry in 2.3 seconds and nothing in between which is kind of a waste. I would've liked to have seen some hurt, pain, confusion, but I didn't see any of that. Then she turned the TV off (something that everyone was watching) and it automatically made me assume she was also selfish (which later episodes proved me right). Right off the bat I wasn't sympathizing with Laurel, and that's a makings of a bad character. Then Laurel met Oliver, and while she was right to be angry with Oliver (come on, the man was instrumental in tearing her family apart), I still wasn't sympathizing with her. What I would've liked to have seen when Laurel first found out that Oliver was alive didn't happen, thus, making Laurel look less sympathetic. I feel like if KC had nailed the first meeting, then I wouldn't have felt this way, unfortunately she has 2 modes, bitchy or judgmental. 

 

Laurel learning about Sara: Having had a sister, I truly never understood Laurel's reaction to learning Sara was alive. It was probably one of the biggest inconsistencies of her character because not an episode before, we saw that Laurel was happy to even have the idea that Sara was alive. If just the idea of believing Sara was alive made Laurel happy, then why in the world did she throw a glass at her? It didn't make sense to me. When a sister comes back after 5 years of thinking she was dead, you don't throw glass at her and tell her she stole your life. IMO, I feel like she reacted worse towards Sara than she did Oliver which makes me scratch my head because Laurel's supposed to be this great family girl (KC said this in an interview somewhere idk where). While Laurel and Sara didn't have the best of relationships, Laurel essentially was mad at Sara over a lying, cheating boy, which made her look so juvenile and so blind. At the end of the day, Laurel got what she wanted, she got her sister back and right off the bat she treated Sara like shit. It just doesn't make sense to me. 

 

And yes, while it's been told (not shown) that Laurel went through a lot of emotional pain, her reactions to learning that both of them alive made her look more selfish somehow (to me at least). It's always about her and it's never about the person who spent 5 years away from home. Let's be real, if they spent 5 years away from home after a ship-wreck with no money, you know they weren't living in paradise. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out. 

Edited September 9, 2014 by wonderwall

[KirkB]

That is my single biggest issue with Laurel. We are repeatedly told (by the EP's and cast and on the show itself) how cool and awesome Laurel is, yet they steadfastly refuse to SHOW us any of the reasons why. Oliver loves her and she is Sara's sister so they are both biased, but if your character really is brilliant or funny or badass no one needs to be TOLD, they just ARE.

[wonderwall]

Funnily enough, it's Felicity who's been made to be the brilliant funny badass. She's everything the writers wanted Laurel to be. Let's compare shall we?

 

Brilliant -- 

Laurel: Laurel's made to be this brilliant lawyer, yet we've never really seen this. Laurel's never won a case, she's extremely unprofessional (the way she yelled at Oliver bringing her personal business to the front stage in front of her client? Come on, that's just ridiculous. Also, the fact that she went against her case her fellow coworkers worked hard on in Queen Vs. State). And in season 3 it only seems as though Laurel is only prosecuting the bad guys the Arrow has chased down, which makes her job a lot easier. This is not what a brilliant Lawyer is like. 

Felicity: Felicity, on the other hand, doesn't need help from the Arrow in order to do her job efficiently and effectively. While some people find it hard to believe that she's a genius because we haven't seen her journey (which imo is ridiculous because who would want to see her go to her classes at MIT?), I think it's been clearly shown what Felicity is capable of through her work with team Arrow and Walter. Felicity isn't only good with the computers though, she's also highly logical which is how she sussed out Moira and how Thea isn't Robert's daughter. 

 

Funny--

Laurel: Laurel was never meant to be funny, all of her jokes have always come off stale and never made me laugh (eg. her line about "does shopping count?", not funny). I don't know if it's because of KCs delivery or if it's just a bad joke, but Laurel doesn't bring any levity to the show at all. 

Felicity: Some people find Felicity's awkwardness grating, however, I find it to be charming. Her awkwardness can be hilarious (but sometimes she does hit the mark, eg. I like you inside me or something like that). Overall, Felicity is a very funny character whose one-liners (which are generally perfectly delivered by EBR) are what people talk about and squeal over in comment sections on IGN, AV Club, tumblr, SpoilerTV, TVline, etc. 

 

Badass--

Laurel: Laurel is meant to be a badass and the future BC. However, we've not seen her be badass apart from a few punches way back when in season 1. Even with her few punches, Sara overshadowed Laurel in every sense of the word. Even in the promo of season 3, Laurel is meant to look badass, but all I could see was that she was just kicking a man while he was down (which was also what happened in the finale with the mirakuru cured soldier). Laurel's attempt at being a badass usually also puts her flaws front and center. In the episode where she 'saved' Oliver, it was obvious the writers were desperate to make her seem badass even though Oliver could've easily mauled the mirakuru dude with an exploding arrow. She was, in the end, a liability. Her stupidity and lack of listening to people's good advice generally overshadows her badassness. 

Felicity: Felicity isn't even meant to be a badass. Yet, I've been seeing people call her one especially after the last 3 episodes. Felicity is a badass in her own sense. She uses her strengths against other people which is incredibly brilliant. She successfully interrogated someone, she ran over Isabel, she depowered Slade... It's a hell of a lot more than what Laurel has ever done. If you would've asked me if Felicity was a badass before the final 3 episodes, I don't think I would've said yes. But the writers made her stronger and more confident in her abilities that now, I believe she's a force to be reckoned with. No one messes with Felicity Smoak. 

 

Neither Laurel nor Felicity are perfect, but it seems as though Laurel's strengths have been better put to use with Felicity making Felicity a much stronger and loved character than Laurel. What didn't work with Laurel due to lazy writing and bad acting worked with Felicity. It makes me feel as though the writers care more about Felicity than Laurel and that EBR cares more about her character than KC. I think it really shows. 

[statsgirl]

Laurel learning about Oliver: The second we saw Laurel find out about Oliver, she was at CNRI and saw that he was alive on the news, something of which everyone was watching. What initially made me feel like there was something off about Laurel was that there was no surprise on her face, she wasn't shocked about Oliver being alive, all we saw from KCs interpretation of her was that Laurel went from indifferent to angry in 2.3 seconds and nothing in between which is kind of a waste. I would've liked to have seen some hurt, pain, confusion, but I didn't see any of that. Then she turned the TV off (something that everyone was watching) and it automatically made me assume she was also selfish (which later episodes proved me right). Right off the bat I wasn't sympathizing with Laurel, and that's a makings of a bad character. 

That CNRI scene is what lost Laurel for me.  Everyone in the room was watching the TV but she just picked up the remote and turned it off. Maybe they were going for 'upset' but what I got out of that was self-centred and selfish.

 

Could they have salvaged her in later episodes?  Maybe. But between that scene and how she treated Oliver at the courthouse in the next episode, they buried her character for me.

 

Laurel learning about Sara: Having had a sister, I truly never understood Laurel's reaction to learning Sara was alive. It was probably one of the biggest inconsistencies of her character because not an episode before, we saw that Laurel was happy to even have the idea that Sara was alive. If just the idea of believing Sara was alive made Laurel happy, then why in the world did she throw a glass at her? It didn't make sense to me. When a sister comes back after 5 years of thinking she was dead, you don't throw glass at her and tell her she stole your life. IMO, I feel like she reacted worse towards Sara than she did Oliver which makes me scratch my head because Laurel's supposed to be this great family girl (KC said this in an interview somewhere idk where).

This I sort of understand. When she thought Sara was dead, she was sad and sorry that she had lost her sister. But when she found out Sara was alive and had been hiding from the family for 6 years, all the resentment and anger came back.   Worse, her parents were all over Sara, so happy she was alive, and ignoring Laurel.  And Laurel has always insisted on being the centre of attention.

 

So while I sort of get it, the writers definitely over-did it (did they want to justify Sara going to Oliver and sleeping with him again?) and along with Laurel's concern about Oliver's scars and indifference to Sara's, it does make :Laurel look very shallow.

[wonderwall]

Worse, her parents were all over Sara, so happy she was alive, and ignoring Laurel.  And Laurel has always insisted on being the centre of attention.

Wow, that makes her look so completely childish it's not even funny. 

 

I understand why Laurel would be angry with Sara for sleeping with Oliver again, but she was angry with Sara before she figured out that Sara and Oliver were an item again. What I don't understand is Laurel's reaction to learning Sara was alive again. It just, sorry. Losing a younger sister is something I understand, and using my experiences, it just didn't make sense to me. :/ You just don't throw glass at people unless you're mentally unstable or something... 

 

Also, when she made that complete 180 by giving Oliver relationship advice, it made her seem bipolar and made it look like her anger wasn't justified and was just another tantrum Laurel pulled.

[KirkB]

I think Laurel's anger at both Oliver and later Sara was completely justified. Two of the most important people in her life, who she found out had both betrayed her and apparently died on the same day, turn out not to be dead at all. I would expect some combination of relief, happiness, and rage. They did the happiness part, at least at first. Hell, after she was poisoned the mere thought of Sara being alive helped her get better. Wait, what? Sara IS alive, Oliver and her dad have been hiding it from her? Okay, some yelling is justified. Hold on. Oliver and Sara are back together and flaunting it? That was wrong on so many levels, and frankly Laurel was probably a bit nicer than I would have been in that situation. The problem, I think, is KC. Righteous indignation is probably what they were going for, but what I saw on screen was more of a petty "look at me!" tantrum. She wasn't angry that they cheated on her and lied to her, she was upset that she had been inconvenienced by mourning two people who weren't even dead. I SHOULD feel all kinds of sympathy for Laurel since she was treated horribly by her boyfriend and her sister but putting aside the fact both of them have actually had it worse what I feel when Laurel is on screen is an utter lack of interest.

[Nanrad]

Laurel's anger was justified, but it was the execution that was crappy. 

[BkWurm1]

The second we saw Laurel find out about Oliver, she was at CNRI and saw that he was alive on the news, something of which everyone was watching. What initially made me feel like there was something off about Laurel was that there was no surprise on her face, she wasn't shocked about Oliver being alive, all we saw from KCs interpretation of her was that Laurel went from indifferent to angry in 2.3 seconds and nothing in between which is kind of a waste. I would've liked to have seen some hurt, pain, confusion, but I didn't see any of that.

 

I suspect what the writers were going for was Laurel seeing the millionth news piece on Oliver Queen returning from the dead.  His story was probably major headlines long before he ever reached Starling City.  The news would have done waaaaaaaay more than just a brief blurb about him arriving home if they hadn't already broken the story and discussed it for days ad nauseam digging up all the old sordid details. 

 

So I suspect we were supposed to see Laurel annoyed that she had to deal with this again and that even her co workers were obsessed with every little step of his journey home when it wasn't even news anymore.  (Because you absolutely know CNN would have a camera stationed half way around the world at the airport that Oliver Queen would be using to fly home, just waiting to catch a glimpse of him or failing that the reporters that would pretend he might be driving by any minute now)  At least I think that is what they meant to show but of course that was a flop because this is the very first time we see Laurel seeing present day Oliver so her lack of a reaction is really our first impression of their whole relationship.   

 

(I can't remember, was she in flashbacks before this moment or is this the VERY first time we see her?)

Edited September 9, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Nanrad]

I think this is the very few time we see her.

[Morrigan2575]

I suspect what the writers were going for was Laurel seeing the millionth news piece on Oliver Queen returning from the dead.  His story was probably major headlines long before he ever reached Starling City.  The news would have done waaaaaaaay more than just a brief blurb about him arriving home if they hadn't already broken the story and discussed it for days ad nauseam digging up all the old sordid details.

 

Going by the leaked script the notes say she turns off the TV before they can mention Sara's last name.  When reading the script the indication should be both anger, embarrassment, trying to hide from her co-workers that it was her sister that was on the yacht with Oliver.  Unfortunately that's not what came across in the show, at least not for me.

 

I had no problem with Laurel's reaction/anger to seeing Oliver again, the show made it clear that the news of Oliver returning from the dead broke a few/couple of days before the Oliver/Laurel confrontation.  I can see how Laurel would have gotten to and settled on anger by the time they talked. 

 

What I don't understand is Laurel's reaction to Sara...it was just too immediate, same episode we go from oh my Angel sister gave me hope to drunk bitching after finding out sister is really alive.  I don't know if there's a cut scene but to me it would have made more sense to see Laurel's immediate reaction be happiness at seeing her sister and then settling into anger once she had some time to stew on it.  Instead what I got was a blank look from KC/Laurel - which I could never interpret (sadness?  shock?  happiness? confusion?) followed by Drunky McBitchy getting pissed because her family is happy and not paying attention to her...and I'm sure that's not what they were going for but that's what came across to me.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Ceylon5]

Going by the leaked script the notes say she turns off the TV before they can mention Sara's last name.  When reading the script the indication should be both anger, embarrassment, trying to hide from her co-workers that it was her sister that was on the yacht with Oliver.  Unfortunately that's not what came across in the show, at least not for me.

 

This probably didn't come across to viewers because it doesn't actually happen on screen like that - she turned the TV off after they had shown a picture of "SARAH LANCE" and the announcer had said one of the victims was "local resident, Sarah Lance, survived by her sister, Laurel...".  (I always thought her name was spelled "Sara", but I guess not.)  The impression I got was that this was the first she was hearing about Oliver surviving, and that she was therefore more shocked than anything else.  Which doesn't really explain why she turned off the TV, but what can you do...

[Morrigan2575]

This probably didn't come across to viewers because it doesn't actually happen on screen like that - she turned the TV off after they had shown a picture of "SARAH LANCE" and the announcer had said one of the victims was "local resident, Sarah Lance, survived by her sister, Laurel...".  (I always thought her name was spelled "Sara", but I guess not.)  The impression I got was that this was the first she was hearing about Oliver surviving, and that she was therefore more shocked than anything else.  Which doesn't really explain why she turned off the TV, but what can you do...

Interesting, I only watched the pilot once (when it first aired).  I don't remember the specifics of that scene, I remember her switching off the TV but that's about it.  The pilot script is actually fresher in my mind.  I remember reading the pilot script and thinking (on paper) Laurel comes across much better than she did in the episode, even though she's still clearly Rachel Dawes lite.

[Chaser]

In the first season I could see what they were trying to do with Laurel, but it never quite got there. There was such a mix of missing scenes, bad writing and questionably acting choices. 

 

I think they could have gotten away with those first scenes of Laurel being so angry if they had just followed it with a scene of her going to the bathroom or the roof or even a broom closet and taking a moment just to crack. Show her in shock, show her trying to stop the tears. He was supposed to be the love of her life, show something other then anger for a moment. Honestly, that would have been a good time to actually show a good moment between the two in flashbacks. 

 

They butchered the Laurel/Sara relationship so bad in my opinion.  And it did start with the first interaction between the characters. Relief and shock should have been there, I think anger should have come later. Maybe in conversation when Sara wouldn't talk about what happened during those years. Then have Laurel get flooded with the realization that she was alive all this time and they never heard from her.

 

Laurel is a frustrating character because she so easily could have worked. 

[Password]

Laurel is a frustrating character because she so easily could have worked. 

 

I agree. All the building blocks were there, but they butchered her character.

[statsgirl]

Going by the leaked script the notes say she turns off the TV before they can mention Sara's last name.  When reading the script the indication should be both anger, embarrassment, trying to hide from her co-workers that it was her sister that was on the yacht with Oliver.  Unfortunately that's not what came across in the show, at least not for me.

 

I had no problem with Laurel's reaction/anger to seeing Oliver again, the show made it clear that the news of Oliver returning from the dead broke a few/couple of days before the Oliver/Laurel confrontation.  I can see how Laurel would have gotten to and settled on anger by the time they talked. 

But why settle on anger?  It's been five years and she's moved on in her life, she's gone to law school, graduated, and now she's helping the poor people of the Glades who can't afford regular lawyers' fees.  She should be hurt and maybe a little angry but the kind of anger KC portrays is out of place.

 

Everyone knew that it was her sister on the yacht with Oliver Queen. But they wouldn't have known that he was dating Laurel at the time.  As far as they knew, Laurel lost her sister when her sister went on a trip with Oliver Queen and the yacht sank. Nothing to be embarrassed about in front of her co-workers.

 

Okay, some yelling is justified. Hold on. Oliver and Sara are back together and flaunting it? That was wrong on so many levels, and frankly Laurel was probably a bit nicer than I would have been in that situation. The problem, I think, is KC. Righteous indignation is probably what they were going for, but what I saw on screen was more of a petty "look at me!" tantrum. She wasn't angry that they cheated on her and lied to her, she was upset that she had been inconvenienced by mourning two people who weren't even dead. I SHOULD feel all kinds of sympathy for Laurel since she was treated horribly by her boyfriend and her sister but putting aside the fact both of them have actually had it worse what I feel when Laurel is on screen is an utter lack of interest.

She was treated badly by her boyfriend and her sister, but not horribly.  They could have been much worse to her.  She was justified to be angry at her father from not telling her Sara was alive, actually she should have been more angry at him than she was.

 

I agree, it was a "pay attention to me" tantrum rather than the deep angry and abandonment she should have felt.

 

I agree. All the building blocks were there, but they butchered her character.

Maybe to some extent. But they butchered Thea's too, and Willa Holland made me like her. Laurel has had a ton of chances to be redeemed as a character and nothing has stuck.

[bethy]

Even in the promo of season 3, Laurel is meant to look badass, but all I could see was that she was just kicking a man while he was down

 

 

Yeah, this.  Even as the promo is flashing "New Attitude" across the screen, they show Laurel twisting the arm of a guy in a hospital bed.  Which, I guess, OK. I'm betting the man is a bad guy, but really?  Is that what the good guys do?  That's the "attitude" they want to highlight about the character?   She's so tough, she can rough up an injured man?  Sure.

Edited September 9, 2014 by bethy

[Tangerine]

That CNRI scene is what lost Laurel for me.  Everyone in the room was watching the TV but she just picked up the remote and turned it off. Maybe they were going for 'upset' but what I got out of that was self-centred and selfish.

 

Laurel didn't lose me completely when this happened, but I did get a familiar pit in my stomach that it would be an uphill climb for me to like her character. The news would have been understandably upsetting, but they could have gone with her leaving the room instead of shutting off the TV and giving everybody the stink eye. It's a combination of bad writing and weak acting because a stronger actress might have been able to sell that conflict of emotions but KC unfortunately isn't great when it comes to nuance.

 

But why settle on anger?  It's been five years and she's moved on in her life, she's gone to law school, graduated, and now she's helping the poor people of the Glades who can't afford regular lawyers' fees.  She should be hurt and maybe a little angry but the kind of anger KC portrays is out of place.

 

If Laurel is supposed to be a compassionate character, it would have gone a long way for me to buy into her and Oliver as a couple had she shown him just a teeny tiny bit of it in their first reunion. I don't blame her for her anger, she had a lot of things pent up she needed to say. But maybe even just a hint of realization or guilt that saying to a guy who she supposedly loved and who had just survived something incredibly traumatic that wishing he was still rotting in hell was probably a horrible thing to say no matter what he did. 

 

Somebody had mentioned that scene where Laurel was ripping into Oliver in front of her client in the courthouse. That scene was probably the one where they lost me on Laurel: 

• She made everybody there awkward by airing out her and Oliver's dirty laundry. Oliver's return was already all over the news, it just seemed cruel and unnecessary.
• Her client was about to go through something incredibly difficult and once again she made it all about herself when she should have been focusing on her client.
• Even though Oliver and her client didn't say anything to one another, they still had a ton more chemistry then anything I saw from Oliver and Laurel. 

[statsgirl]

 

• Even though Oliver and her client didn't say anything to one another, they still had a ton more chemistry then anything I saw from Oliver and Laurel. 

 

Yes to everything else you're saying too but this was the one that really struck me when I saw the scene.  How is it that they barely said anything to each other, but I thought they would have made a much more viable couple than Oliver and Laurel?  More compassion?  More interest in the other person? She seemed a better person than Laurel?  The EPs need to figure that out because unless they do, they'll continue mis-writing Laurel.

[Chaser]

I've been trying to think of characters that I disliked at the beginning but grew to love or at lease enjoy and I'm having a hard time. Maybe Cordelia on Buffy/Angel, some AOS characters, but those I mostly started with indifference. 

 

I don't want to say it, but sometimes I think it won't matter what they do with Laurel. Those first two years burned her too much for me. Anytime she is doing something awesome, I'll just roll my eyes. If they make her the Black Canary, I'll just think Sara earned that. If they decided to go with O/L, I'll turn off the TV and start ignoring the show. Ugh I didn't even have this problem with Lana and it took years to get me to this point with Elena. 

Edited September 10, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[blixie]

It happens on soaps all the time, characters you liked can be destroyed, and characters you hated can become awesome, but the daytime narratives are ever expansive and there's more time to play that out, for stilted and painful actors to learn on the job and blossom. In more traditional narrative shows in primetime, I really really disliked Britta and Jeff on Community, Jeff started to win me over around episode 6, Britta was problematic into S2, when they finally decided to go almost full dork with her.

 

Currently I'd argue Ward on Agents of SHIELD is almost as disliked as Laurel, certainly as critiqued, the actor is terrible, and the writing he has received runs circles around what Arrow has done with Laurel. Of course they pulled a late season reveal about Ward that made him marginally more interesting, and that's the same path they should take with Laurel. At some point you have to fold your losing hand.

[wonderwall]

The thing is though, is that characters in soaps generally have no depth which is why it's so easy to flip flop opinions with them. The problem with Arrow is that there are so many likable/round/well developed characters that it's more difficult to make a hated character more likable. Said character will always be compared to the already likable characters and in the end, said character will never be as liked as the other supporting cast. That's a big problem especially if you're a lead. If Laurel was a supporting character, it's no doubt she would've bitten the bullet a long time ago, but she's not. I fear that the writers and EPs will try too hard to make people like her, and forcing people to like a character will just deter them even more. I'm predicting a complete retcon of Laurel's character in season 3. 

 

I have a theory called the negative drift phenomena where if people don't like a certain character, that negative feeling they have for them will not likely change and everything the character does will probably be off-putting/grating/annoying, and that sooner or later, it'll take less and less effort to feel that way about a character. This is what I've been seeing a lot on this board (there's nothing wrong with it, it's just how some people work). 

 

While I don't remain optimistic about Laurel in the third season, I am trying to keep an open mind about her (though the fact that I have to use up energy to even try to find her watchable is a problem in itself). I think season 3 will either make or break Laurel, and if it doesn't make Laurel, then I think the EPs are going to have to go back to the drawing board and either write Laurel off the show or change the direction of her character because right now, she's pretty much the Dawson of the show. Let's hope the EPs and KC don't britta Laurel again. 

[statsgirl]

The reveal for Ward though is

he turned into a very bad guy.

  I think they should do that for Laurel, but they never will.

 

But as long as we're talking Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., I  think a better comparitor for Laurel is Skye, who everyone on the show says is awesome (and who is disliked by a lot of the audience) and who has story line after storyline revolve around her (like Laurel), and who is played by I think the worst actor on the show.  (I think Brent Dalton is a better actor and I liked Ward except when he's with Skye..)  I think both Skye and Laurel need the focus off of them, majorly, for a while.

City of Blood was on TV this evening.  I think in terms of Laurel, it's the best episode she's had because she's sympathetic at the funeral,, likable becuase she acknowledges that Qentin was right not to believe her when she wasdrinking, and smart about bugging Blood's office.  Really good so far.

 

And then the writers put her in the middle of the Arrow cave where she was the only one who could get through to Oliver, and after he told her to stay behind, she followed him  sso that she could save him from the mirakuru soldier but really she stalled the plan so it didn't come off and ended up causing more trouble.  If only they would havce stopped at her giving the information about Blood to the Team, I could have liked her.

[Nanrad]

I've finally understand the root of my anger with Laurel: yes, she's terribly written (and, at times, acted), but if she was constructed with care and KC actually understood her character, she could be so much better than this. The issue for me is that everything that could have went wrong with Laurel, did go wrong. I wish I could like her, but there is so much wrong with her to overlook. 

Edited September 10, 2014 by Nanrad

[Starfish35]

There's a lot of frustrating things about Laurel for me. Honestly (I think I've said this before, although it may have been back in the TWoP days) before the show started I was more excited about Laurel's character than any of the others. I didn't know much about Black Canary (not being a comics book reader) but I knew enough to know that's who she was eventually supposed to be, and that was enough to get my interest.

To go from that to being one of my most despised characters ever.... It's discouraging, because Laurel could have been amazing. There's actually not that many female characters I dislike - it's a pretty short list. But right now Laurel's at the top of it. It's not just one thing they've done wrong - it's like, if they had a choice to make about her character they invariably chose the wrong thing. Add to that the fact that KC's acting grates on my nerves badly. And now not only is she a badly written badly acted character, she's a character that poses a direct threat to a character I actually do enjoy (Sara), which just piles on the resentment.

For all my criticism of KC's acting, however, acting isn't totally a make or break point for me. It's annoying, but if I find a story compelling enough I can eventually get used to it. I personally think Emily Rose on Haven is a worse actress than KC, but because I'm interested in Audrey's story, I've managed to get past the actress's rather monotone style. And it also works the other way around. It's true that a good actor/actress can elevate some mediocre writing, but there's some writing that even the best actor or actress couldn't rescue.

In Laurel it seems like we've got both. Bad acting, bad writing - add in the non-existent chemistry with her co-star(s), and you have the trifecta of doom. :( Of course this is all a matter of perspective, and mileage will vary, but....I just don't think Laurel is fixable. And I wish it was different. As much as I love Sara, in all honesty she's not the Dinah Laurel Lance I wanted either. She's just (to me) a far more compelling and interesting character than our Arrow version of Laurel.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Starfish35

[KirkB]

I got about halfway through the Birds of Prey episode the other day before I had to turn it off, because seeing Sara in her Canary suit walking around with Laurel (who never recognized her own damn sister, but I digress) was kind of depressing. I knew sooner or later Laurel was going to be in that suit, or one very similar, and Sara would be gone. Best case scenario, she had moved away and is wearing a different suit. More likely scenario, she's dead. I am indifferent to Laurel right now because she has done nothing on the show to impress (or anger) me. She's just a place setting character, filling the screen until someone more interesting comes along. If she is at the forefront, fighting crime alongside Oliver, I will be forced to actually pay attention to Laurel. Which would normally be a good thing, but in this case I don't see any way to make Laurel interesting enough to drive a scene. I do think the majority of the problem is Katie Cassidy, but she is not solely responsible because even a mediocre actress can be bolstered to a certain degree with good enough writing and directing. Here she isn't getting either.

Edited September 10, 2014 by KirkB

[Starfish35]

Well and that's the thing. The problem with Laurel is who she's supposed to be. Someone upthread said something about if Laurel was a supporting character none of this would be an issue. Laurel is supposed to be the lead female character (though that seems to be on paper only these days). She's supposed to be the future Black Canary (though that role is currently being competently filled). She was supposed to be (though they've apparently changed course on this) the love of Oliver Queen's lfe. If she were just a supporting character, none of this about acting and writing and chemistry would be an issue because she wouldn't expected to be a major player. It's an issue because of the role she's expected to eventually take on the show.

Laurel is a frustrating character because she so easily could have worked.

And also this, so very much this. Edited September 10, 2014 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

I have legit just decided (about 5 seconds ago) to stop writing about how much and why I dislike Laurel. It accomplishes nothing (for me) and writing down her failures just grates on my nerves even more. Either her character starts working in season 3 or it doesn't. I'm not going to waste any more time on her. Instead, I think I'm going to focus on the things I like about this show...

 

Huh, I feel better already :)

[Chaser]

Another problem they need to address is that in order for her to become who she was supposed to be, they need to to sacrifice what is proven to work. If she becomes the Black Canary, they lose Sara as the Canary. Oliver/Arrrow and Laurel/Black Canary team up, they lose Team Arrow. If they go with Oliver/Laurel, they lose Olicity. These are elements in place that work on the show. That's a lot of risk on a character they have been trying to fix for a season plus.

@Wonderwall - Complaining about Laurel is like eating junk food. Probably not good for your health but very satisfying in the moment.

[wonderwall]

Lmao I'll probably come back to criticizing Laurel (if she does something monumentally stupid which imo won't take long) when the new season starts :p What can I say? I'm an addict, and addicts just can't quit cold turkey that easily (although the almighty Laurel might believe/ say otherwise. LAST ONE I PROMISE)

[quarks]

Skye on AoS is not one of my favorite characters, but in all fairness to her, at least she is continually doing stuff. I just rewatched Darkness on the Edge of Town, and it's amazing: absolutely every other character, including characters who only get a couple of lines each and immediately die and including Tommy who knows zilch but gets called in for questioning on the plot anyway and including a pilot who is just a voice and including a character who never speaks is involved in either the present day earthquake machine plot or the flashback yay let's go destroy China's economy plot.  

 

What does Laurel do during all of this?  She pops up and talks about her feelings for Oliver. She pops up and talks to Quentin about her feelings for Oliver, reminding all of us about how Oliver cheated on her and Sara died yadda yadda because we've only heard this every other episode.  Then she hooks up with Oliver. 

 

That's it.

 

Since episode five, this show has struggled to figure out a way to keep Laurel in the plot, and most of the time solved it by not having her in the plot at all, or having her stand around and deliver various speeches about what she's feeling at any given moment.  Which leads to this: 26 pages of posts about her. Which I've just added to. Sigh.

[statsgirl]

It feels strange to say this but I think having Laurel not in the plot is actually an advantage because I can skip over her scenes.  Skye is not only in every. damn. plot, half the times she's driving them.  Can you imagine what Arrow would be like if who Laurel is was were the key to some great big thing on the show and they devoted several episodes to looking into her origins?

 

 

Since episode five, this show has struggled to figure out a way to keep Laurel in the plot, and most of the time solved it by not having her in the plot at all, or having her stand around and deliver various speeches about what she's feeling at any given moment.  

That suggests an easy partial fix for Laurel -- have her talk about someone else's feelings for a change. The problems someone else is having in their life rather than hers.  But then, it wouldn't be Laurel, would it?

[dtissagirl]

I'm with @statsgirl in that I appreciate them keeping Laurel mostly out of the A-plot so I have the option to skip her scenes. *g*

 

But what baffles me is they had trouble adding Laurel to the main stories in S1, and then instead of figuring how to fix that, they isolated Laurel about a hundred times more in S2. She was replaced as love interest [Felicity], stripped of her potential future superhero plot [sara] and lost her place as Team Arrow's inside man in law enforcement [Quentin].

 

But the kicker was even after she was involved in the A-plot, the S2 finale had Nyssa tranq her TO GET HER OUT OF THE WAY OF THE STORY, and she was decorative background extra #2 when Felicity was miracuring Slade. I've been trying to come up with another character that has been as useless to a narrative as Laurel, and I only can remember Mandy from West Wing S1 -- but they realized her completely uselessness and got rid of her when they came back for S2. Stop watching Angel and go watch some West Wing, Arrow writers!

Edited September 10, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Chaser]

Her role in those last couple episodes of the S2 finale was hard to figure out. Her only role was to be a red herring in the finale. And the episode before that was more about Sara then anything to do with her. I think this has been mentioned before, but they could have reversed Felicity and her roles and given her the hero moment and the romantic beats. They made the choice not to go that direction.

 

Another interesting thing: the episode prior to all this, was a big Laurel episode. She had the Blood plot line, Intro to the Arrow Cave, speech to Oliver, tagging along after him. You would think they were actaully building towards something. I wonder if they were just trying a appease the KC/LL fans because they knew they would be sidelining her for the finale.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Her role in those last couple episodes of the S2 finale was hard to figure out. Her only role was to be a red herring in the finale. And the episode before that was more about Sara then anything to do with her. I think this has been mentioned before, but they could have reversed Felicity and her roles and given her the hero moment and the romantic beats. They made the choice not to go that direction.

Another interesting thing: the episode prior to all this, was a big Laurel episode. She had the Blood plot line, Intro to the Arrow Cave, speech to Oliver, tagging along after him. You would think they were actaully building towards something. I wonder if they were just trying a appease the KC/LL fans because they knew they would be sidelining her for the finale.

I think if they had switched Felicity and Laurel's roles in the finale they would have lost a lot of viewers. Lautel's narrative has been such she doesn't make sense in most of the plots without a shoehorn. It is crazy enough Oliver is declaring his love to Felicity after banging Sara but to declare his love to Laurel (or vice versa) in the short timeframe would disgust me enough to quit watching.

Laurel doesn't have Sara's training. She doesn't have Felicity's loyalty. She doesn't have Isobel's buckets of crazy or work ethic. She doesn't have anything to offer. She detracts. I don't even know if she would make a good villain. She has no motivation. She has no drive. She exists because she is in the comics and it isn't enough in my opinion to save the character. She can't keep searching for motivation unless that is her story which I have no interest in watching.

[TanyaKay]

Another interesting thing: the episode prior to all this, was a big Laurel episode. She had the Blood plot line, Intro to the Arrow Cave, speech to Oliver, tagging along after him. You would think they were actaully building towards something. I wonder if they were just trying a appease the KC/LL fans because they knew they would be sidelining her for the finale.

 

and this is why Nyssa is so important to the show, she tranqs Laurel just at the right moment so that audience will not have to suffer her presence any longer. Aren't we glad that Nyssa exists.

[wonderwall]

 

Is it just me, or does Laurel's face looks a little creepy here? It looks like she's thinking "I'm going to steal your life and everyone you love"

OKAY THIS IS THE LAST ONE

Edited September 10, 2014 by wonderwall

[KirkB]

A little? No, that expression is a lot creepy. With no context, it looks kind of likes she's saying "That's the Canary and I'm going to gobble her up."

Edited September 10, 2014 by KirkB

[Orion]

She has a similar expression when Sara says, "Oliver needs you" at the end of 2X23 it's.. creepy is the kindest word I can think of.  Like someone just told her there is free cake on the table behind her.  It's a little manic especially during the goodbye to Sara scene. 

 

Honestly, those scenes just scream KC wants that name, jacket and Oliver.  Are we sure Laurel isn't

Cupid and she's obsessed with Sara and Oliver.

Because I could buy that!

[TanyaKay]

She has a similar expression when Sara says, "Oliver needs you" at the end of 2X23 it's.. creepy is the kindest word I can think of.  Like someone just told her there is free cake on the table behind her.  It's a little manic especially during the goodbye to Sara scene. 

 

Honestly, those scenes just scream KC wants that name, jacket and Oliver.  Are we sure Laurel isn't

Cupid and she's obsessed with Sara and Oliver.

Because I could buy that!

 

Oh God, they should never have let Laurel in the secret identity of Arrow. They should have made her Cupid who was obsessed with Arrow and then when she wouldève found out that it had been Oliver Queen all along, she would be so disappointed that she would leave the city and go live in a commune in Northern California near a winery.

The Arrow writers missed a golden opportunity right there.

[KirkB]

Maybe she''ll develop a split personality. Part of the time she'll be plain ol' dull Laurel Lance...and no one will care. The other part of the time she will be Cupid, who is maniacly obsessed with the Arrow but has no idea he's Oliver. People still won't care that much but at least she won't be so boring, maybe?

[wonderwall]

I think they'll start trying to push Laurel into being this perfect person who can do no wrong and can learn to fight really quickly as well as win all of her cases and be a perfect family person and blah blah blah. Basically I'm pretty sure she'll become a mary sue (god I hate that word, but i think it's appropriate in this case). 

[Angel12d]

 

Is it just me, or does Laurel's face looks a little creepy here? It looks like she's thinking "I'm going to steal your life and everyone you love"

OKAY THIS IS THE LAST ONE

 

This is why Laurel's going to be questioning 'Am I my sister?' in s3 isn't it? Because she wants to be the hero. She wants the same recognition. I'm sure it was written to be like 'Wow, that's my sister, I'm so proud of her!' but in gif form especially it comes across a little strange. 

Edited September 11, 2014 by Angel12d

[writersblock51]

 

Basically I'm pretty sure she'll become a mary sue

 

I'm resigned to that happening.  And that GIF does her no favors.  But I also thought her expression was creepy as hell when I first saw that scene.  Add that to the jacket scene and oooffff... not well done nor played with a subtle touch.

[BkWurm1]

Just tonight on Conan they were talking about how the slow camera zoom is always the cue to the viewer that crazy is coming. 

[dtissagirl]

That gif is making me imagine Laurel killing Sara and eating her brain just to see if that's the trick to become nuCanary. :)

Birds of Prey was on Tav here this week, and the way Laurel repeats Helena's "once you get the darkness inside" speech to Kate Spencer after blackmailing her way back into the DAs office is a TOTAL set up to make Laurel go evil. Except sometime between BoP and the finale the EPs flip-flopped that decision and went with the magic jacket instead. Sigh,

[Password]

To be fair, the promo showed Laurel beating up a person in hospital so maybe she will embrace that darkness. As strange as it sounds, it would be the only thing that makes sense for her character.

[tv echo]

I find the comparisons of Laurel to Skye on Agents of SHIELD interesting.  Part of the problem with Skye is that they've made her into such a special snowflake and shoehorned her onto Team Coulson in a contrived manner, the other part is the acting...  OK, I see the comparison.  However, I have to point out that, while KC has been acting for about 10 years, Chloe Bennet, who plays Skye, has only been acting for about 2 years.  Prior to AOS, CB's only acting credit was as Hailey on the TV show Nashville.  Before that, CB was a pop singer in China under the name Chloe Wang (she was born in Chicago to a Chinese father and American mother).

[KirkB]

The difference, I think, is Skye is actually shown DOING things. Like her or not, she serves a purpose in the scenes she's dominating. Unlike Laurel, she doesn't appear to be there mainly because of a contractual obligation.

[wingster55]

I think she looks proud in that gif.

[Starfish35]

I thought she looked proud when I originally saw the scene (it's one of the few scenes I actually liked Laurel last season) but I agree with the others - that gif makes the look on her face creepy as hell.