Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Sakura12]

I don't think anyone understands the Laurel character including KC and the writers. They just keep putting her on display hoping we'll eventually someday suddenly love her. 

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sakura12

[BkWurm1]

She handles hand to hand combat early and doesn't take crap from either Oliver or Tommy.  And then in the middle of the episode she goes to Oliver and gets all puppy dog "If you need someone ..." and does her cry/sigh/gasp stuff.  Where does it come from???  I just don't get this character.

 

I have to wonder if the actress and or director had taken the time to add in some vulnerability in her first scene with Oliver where she tells him she wishes he was still dead if then the second scene wouldn't have been so confusing and out of place.  Maybe showing immediate regret for wishing he was dead or something to show that her VERY angry words weren't all that was going on in her head because I fully supported her anger but thought so quickly letting go of that righteous indignation without really understanding why, made Laurel seem wishy-washy and worse, the next time she and Oliver have a confrontation and Laurel is back to being cold and angry, it no longer plays as strong and justified contempt, but her lashing out because Oliver didn't want to play with her. 

[wingster55]

She handles hand to hand combat early and doesn't take crap from either Oliver or Tommy.  And then in the middle of the episode she goes to Oliver and gets all puppy dog "If you need someone ..." and does her cry/sigh/gasp stuff.  Where does it come from???  I just don't get this character.

 

To me it shows the conflicting feelings she had toward Oliver. Fairly straightforward imo. 

[willpwr]

To me it makes her seem bipolar, going from one extreme to the next. No shades of grey.

[TanyaKay]

To me it shows the conflicting feelings she had toward Oliver. Fairly straightforward imo.

Well for most of us, and I am not assuming it as almost every Internet forum and every person in real life thought Laurel was either crazy, entitled, self absorbed or bratty, conflicted is not a word I would ever associate with Laurel as it means she us actually thinking about something other than herself.

[Password]

To me it shows the conflicting feelings she had toward Oliver.

That was probably how it was meant to come off as but, for me and I believe many others it just came off as wishy washy. Laurel didn't have a lot going for her with the terrible back story including her sister and Oliver cheating, so to see her STILL all over the place about this man didn't seem like "gosh I love him and hate him at the same time" but "I am a doormat for this man who continually lies to me".

[statsgirl]

I think the writers and KC were going for conflicted, but as she plays only one emotion at a time (angry!  resentful!  wants Oliver! hates Oliver!), it comes off as wishywashy and screwed up..

[Sakura12]

This is a user submitted poll posted on Spoilertv today. 

 

Who is the worst character on a CW show right now? 
http://www.spoilertv.com/2014/08/usd-poll-who-is-worst-character-on-cw.html

 

Guess who is winning with a whopping 40% of the votes! I know it's user made on the internet, but it's still pretty telling to be on those types of lists. In second place is some guy from Beauty and the Beast and he only has 14%. 

[writersblock51]

ah, but what do fans really know?

 

Oh, wait...

[statsgirl]

The guy from Beauty and the Beast is Gabe, the stall-ship.  It's pretty annoying the way he's being written. But wow, the difference between Laurel at 708 votes right now, and second place Gabe at 264.  

[Orion]

Gabe from Beauty and the Beast,

died at the end of Season 2.

Which is helpful in forgetting how annoying his character was. 

 

I'm not sure the show would view this poll as a negative. Their favorite quote seems to be about love or hate it doesn't matter the only thing they worry about is apathy. So polls like this, while bad for KC and LL, are still getting buzz going for the show. People will tune in to hate watch. Most shows deliberately cast someone the audience can hate on and cheer for their death because its a reason to tune in every week. That being said LL "winning"? that poll by so many votes does not inspire confidence in the success of her arc becoming the "good-doer" BC.

[Password]

I won't lie, seeing Laurel beat up someone in hospital made me sit up and watch. WHAT IS SHE DOING?????? I hope it's something interesting to watch.

[statsgirl]

I'm not sure the show would view this poll as a negative. Their favorite quote seems to be about love or hate it doesn't matter the only thing they worry about is apathy. So polls like this, while bad for KC and LL, are still getting buzz going for the show. People will tune in to hate watch. Most shows deliberately cast someone the audience can hate on and cheer for their death because its a reason to tune in every week. That being said LL "winning"? that poll by so many votes does not inspire confidence in the success of her arc becoming the "good-doer" BC.

Knowing them, they'll see it as validation for Laurel.  But if they read closely, it's a poll for "the worst character", not the one you love to hate.

 

Maybe they should have labelled it "the most useless character" because I still can't figure out how they're going to give her leading lady airtime and make her relevant enough.

[Chaser]

Newbie poster: For me, Laurel lacks foundation as a character. Its like she was built on quicksand. Its hard for me to understand where she is coming from half the time so it's difficult for me to understand where her character is heading. With two seasons under her, we should now who she is. Its kinda sad when we know characters like Felicity (even with her backstory - we know her) and even Sin better but a lead that was in the plan from the beginning. And the really sad thing is, I have two seasons of indifference and downright annoyance with the character. Season three is going to be a hard sell for me; I can't do quick fixes with these characters. 

[wonderwall]

Welcome! (Btw, I really hope your username is in reference to doctor who :p)

 

I agree completely. I've said this before hundreds of times on other boards but if someone were to ask me who Laurel Lance was I wouldn't be able to give a comprehensive answer as I can with Felicity. The only thing I can say about her is that she's a Lawyer/supposed badass (but fails miserably at being so)/ supposed do gooder. I know nothing of her personality, characteristics, or anything else for that matter. I don't know when Laurel's acting OOC or when she's not which is a huge problem because that just makes her character all the more inconsistent. I hope they start building a solid foundation for Laurel instead of just building upon the flimsy one they have right now. 

[Chaser]

Thanks…and Yep a total Whovian present!

 

The problem is she is so bi-polar EVERYTHING is in character for her. Which strangely enough, leads to a lack of character. lol 

 

One of the things I've noticed about Laurel is they go for the big scene with her. All emotional, all the time. I think the mark of a good actor is they can make the small moments big (to punch you in the gut with everything that ISN'T said) and the big moments small (to allow for the character to display vunerbility) .  

[wonderwall]

I think the problem with giving KC all the big scenes is the fact that she tends to overact everything (I hate how she stares off in the distance as if she's saying something profound to Oliver). So I agree, give her smaller moments because it suits her acting abilities more. 

[Chaser]

I think every character needs both of those scenes. I can't wait for steady as a rock Diggle to lose it on Oliver and Felicity is a perfect example of a character that balances the big and small moments. Laurel needs those for depth of character. But I don't have faith in the actor or the writers for that kind of balance.

Edited September 1, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[BkWurm1]

For me, Laurel lacks foundation as a character. Its like she was built on quicksand. Its hard for me to understand where she is coming from half the time so it's difficult for me to understand where her character is heading

 

One of the things I've noticed about Laurel is they go for the big scene with her. All emotional, all the time

 

You've hit the nail on the head with her characterization.  It's all over the place.  I tried to just now describe Laurel and all I did was run into contradictions.

 

She's devoted to her family - but she wasn't close to her mother, ran her sister away when she returned from the dead and has been downright mean to daddy.

 

She's a lawyer who wants to do good  - but even in season 1 she didn't seem to know how to use the law to help.  The firefighter murdered episode comes to mind when the Arrow handed her proof that her theory was right, she had no clue what to do with any evidence.  Plus by year two she's no longer looking out for the little guy.  She's gone from defender to prosecutor.  So I can't define her by her job. 

 

She hated Oliver but if he wanted to talk, she'd listen (why WOULD he want to expose all his trauma to someone that wants him dead?)  She loves Tommy but she ran back to Oliver but then Tommy died to save her so she does love Tommy and she and Oliver can never be together but then she has dinner with him one night and just assumes they are  going do the horizontal mombo.   Oh and if she was so finished with Oliver, why the freak out when her sister was dating him again?  An episode later, she's giving that very couple relationship advise.

 

Everything she does it a contradiction.

 

She won't be left behind when Team Arrow goes out to fight but then once she's out there she tells Oliver he doesn't need her and leaves. 

 

I guess the only thing consistent about Laurel is that she IS highly inconsistent.  That and she's emotional ALL THE TIME. 

Edited September 1, 2014 by BkWurm1

[catrox14]

I think the problem with giving KC all the big scenes is the fact that she tends to overact everything (I hate how she stares off in the distance as if she's saying something profound to Oliver).

 

Otherwise known as 'smell the fart' acting (tm Joey Tribbiani)

Edited September 1, 2014 by catrox14

[Chaser]

Laurel fall into the classic Lana Lang Trap in S1. They tried to make her too good. So perfect that everyone loved and admired her. The Ideal for Oliver and Tommy. The perfect crusading Lawyer. But the audience couldn't buy any of this because it wasn't supported by the writing. The show runners didn't get this so they decided to go the opposite route and give her all the problems. Her Superiority Complex is actually hiding her Inferiority Complex because everyone leaves her (total Buffy moment). 

[pootlus]

Which is why I'd be completely behind Laurel going off the deep end, and I think Katie could actually sell that (especially as her leading lady status has been pretty well yanked from under her).

 

And I mean really going off the deep end, not just weeping a bit, popping a few pills and chucking the odd exploding wine glass.

[Chaser]

Evil!Laurel would be awesome. I would watch a show with a completely unhinged Laurel. They should throw a wig on her and call her Cupid.

[catrox14]

They've already cast Cupid.  It's Young Mary Winchester - AKA Amy Gumenick

[pootlus]

I'm sure there are more batshit crazy DC characters she can become :)

[Chaser]

My favorite batshit crazy is Harley Quinn but A) we already got a glimpse and B) she is way too awesome.

[catrox14]

Just let Dinah Laurel Dinah Lance become Manhunter.

Edited September 1, 2014 by catrox14

[icandigit]

 

I think the problem with giving KC all the big scenes is the fact that she tends to overact everything

I keep wondering what show she thinks she's on. It's not the same one I see everyone acting in. But, if the directors keep letting this happen, there's not much that can be done.

[KirkB]

I have a feeling there is something going on we're not privy to. I don't pay much attention to Laurel, but for those of you who think she makes weird, inappropriate expressions at odd times and overacts at others, there almost has to be a reason. Maybe it's coming across strangely because she doesn't quite understand and is just doing what she's told? I mean, if it's not deliberate or at least acceptable, why would the EP's let her get away with it otherwise?

Edited September 1, 2014 by KirkB

[willpwr]

Maybe it's not within their schedule or budget to keep reshooting her scenes until they get what they want. I don't know, to be honest. I'm basing this off of her admitting that she couldn't help but smile at the jacket scene because she was too giddy. The way she has described some of her scenes and her character have me very confused because I'm not seeing what she's seeing.

[statsgirl]

 I mean, if it's not deliberate or at least acceptable, why would the EP's let her get away with it otherwise?

She's Hollywood royalty and has an ironclad contract?  And AK is determined to keep Dinah Laurel Lance on the show?

 

If they can't make Laurel work this season, I wouldn't be surprised if she's off the show. But I also wouldn't be surprised if they keep her on.  There are so many good things about the show, from SA's Oliver to Team Arrow to John Barrowman and Paul Blackthorne that maybe they think it doesn't matter so much.

[foreverevolving]

She's Hollywood royalty and has an ironclad contract?  And AK is determined to keep Dinah Laurel Lance on the show?

 

If they can't make Laurel work this season, I wouldn't be surprised if she's off the show. But I also wouldn't be surprised if they keep her on.  There are so many good things about the show, from SA's Oliver to Team Arrow to John Barrowman and Paul Blackthorne that maybe they think it doesn't matter so much.

My only problem is that, at the moment, and with KC portraying the role, the show feels like an under oiled machine; or to take the analogy (or is it metaphor?) a bit further: one cog (kc, the writing for Laurel, both) in the machine is causing a slowdown and until you replace that cog the machine is never gonna operate at peak capacity.

[wonderwall]

KC doesn't make Laurel a layered character through her expressions/body language etc. And neither does the writing tbqh. That's the problem.

 

I don't see this changing at all because I've seen most of KCs acting gigs (except for Skribbler and Harpers Island) and she really doesn't add any depth to her characters. She brings in the snark, looks pretty, and that's it. 

[BkWurm1]

There is a line in season 1, episode 10 Burned.  It's the one with the firemen dying.  It's also the one where Tommy asks for a drawer and Laurel shuts that topic down.  Oliver brings it up to Laurel and she says something like he should know she's an all or nothing kind of girl.  Something about either leaping in with both feet or not all all. 

 

I wonder if that is supposed to be the explanation for the wild swings of mood and opinion that Laurel seems to constantly have.  It might explain the acting too.  She'd be all extremes all the time.

 

Of course IMO that isn't how real people act.  They feel  more than one emotion at a time. 

[writersblock51]

I still thnk the most viable route for Laurel to take at this point it to become the show's version of Manhunter, even though the label has already been given to someone else - she can take over from that person after some training, personal reflection and, of course, whatever singular event causes her to step into that role.

 

I think the term "Hollywood royalty" is being generous when it comes to KC.  I would think her connections with the CW were more of a factor in her getting the role and keeping it than anything else.  Lots more examples of Hollywood royalty out there that come to mind whenever I hear the term - Drew Barrymore, Gwyneth Paltrow, Jaden Smith, are just a few.  Is KC connected via her father's & grandfather's last name? Sure. But given that their moments in the spotlight are far gone, I'm not sure how much it helps her now.  then again, I have no clue who her mother is.

[willpwr]

I was just reading KC's wiki and this part stuck out to me:

 

In 2002, Katie Cassidy recorded a version of “I Think I Love You,” which had been a hit for her father’s made-for-television band, the Partridge Family. She was 15 at the time, five years younger than her dad when he recorded his version. In his autobiography, David Cassidy said he did not support his then-estranged daughter’s attempt at a music career, saying she was too young and had not yet ‘paid her dues.’

 

She made her acting debut the following year.

 

I think her last name definitely gave her a big advantage but I agree that her relationship with CW was probably a bigger factor in regards to landing the Laurel Lance role.

[blixie]

 

I think the term "Hollywood royalty" is being generous when it comes to KC.  I would think her connections with the CW were more of a factor in her getting the role and keeping it than anything else.

 

Seriously. Angelina Jolie, and GOOP are Hollywood royalty, Katie Cassidy is not, David Cassidy was never actually well liked in the business, and he's most well known today for drunk driving. Repeatedly. I think it's more that someone at the CW/CBS really really likes her, and keeps trying to find her something that will stick. All her work on television as either been for CW or the parent CBS.

 

I see S3 as Laurel's Last Stand, either they are able to finally give Laurel grounding, dimensionality, and POV, building to her being Black Canary..one.day. Or they cut her loose and build to a story where she becomes White Canary and exits the show. I just don't see Manhunter being a legit option. Katie Cassidy being paid basically lead female prices to work as fifth fiddle hero character would be really unlikely. Like I'm sure that S2 Lance arc had everything to do with getting some work out of her when she'd spent most of S2 in a third tier supporting role.

 

I will never waver from thinking Laurel going bad/evil and exiting her with potential return visits would be the best thing for KC, Laurel, and certainly weary viewers.

[Starfish35]

Just my opinion, but I don't think there is any scenario ever where Laurel becomes evil. I'd like to hope that they'd cut her loose if they can't make her work this year, but I hoped that last year as well so I'm not holding my breath. But making her evil is another whole thing entirely and candidly I don't find it even remotely plausible. Regardless of how the audience may perceive Laurel as a character, as far as the writers are concerned she's still a heroine, and they're not going to trash that even if they are eventually forced to let her go.

A scenario I could possibly see however is them making her Black Canary at the end of the season and then writing her out, sending Laurel away from Starling City on her own (offscreen) journey. It wouldn't be my choice since it would still mean losing Sara as our Canary, but the writers might see it as a way to have their cake and eat it too. They get to say that they followed through on what they promised and made Laurel the Black Canary, even if it doesn't end up with Arrow and Canary together onscreen.

My personal choice of course would be the same as it was last year - kill off Laurel and keep Sara as the Black Canary. But I've kind of given up hope on getting my wish on that.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Starfish35

[Ceylon5]

If it's true that Katie's contract is only 3 years, then maybe the reason they're not committing to anything with regards to Laurel's storyline is because they're waiting to see what will happen during the negotiations for renewing her contract.  It's possible that either a) due to budget restrictions, they don't want to pay her as much, given that she's playing a far smaller role than was initially envisioned for her, and she might not want to work for less money; or b) she or they have already decided that they don't want to renew the contract, so she/they are already planning her exit as a main cast-member.  Basically, given that they've replaced her as main love interest and already have a Canary, her bargaining power in terms of the relevance or importance of her character is greatly reduced.  In addition, her original bargaining chip of name recognition is no longer relevant.  It's possible that they're just going to tread water with her again for season 3 and then write her out.  They would be foolish to do anything drastic to force the Black Canary issue (like killing Sara), only to end up with Katie deciding to leave because the contract negotiations didn't pan out.  So, if she's still around in Season 4, perhaps then they'll finally commit to a definite direction for her, but till then, they might just be in wait and see mode.

 

ETA: Just seen Starfish35's comment - if they use their imaginations, I'm sure they could find a way to send her off on her journey towards Black Canary off-screen and keep Sara alive as the current Canary, if they have their hearts set on having a Canary on the show.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Ceylon5

[blixie]

 

But making her evil is another whole thing entirely and candidly I don't find it even remotely plausible.

 

Oh to be clear, yes I agree the go evil thing is entirely unlikely, I think there are lots of ways to exit her character, going evil is just my favorite considering what Katie Cassidy's wheelhouse is, and frankly they way they have written their supposed "heroine" for two years. I have zero expectation it will happen, but I can't seen any situation in which Laurel can become Canary without having at least as many years "training" as Ollie/Sara, around three. They've already lost two years of that "storytellling" time,by not telling us jack shit about Laurel, and indeed making her unlikable and unrootable. So I mean yeah, maybe KC is willing to take pay cut/reduced role as long as she eventually re-emerges as Black Canary? But why do ANY of that when you have a kick ass Canary in place who is very well like, and very rootable? 

 

I'm glad to hear her contract was only for 3 years, that makes me even more confident they are only playing out her string.

[Starfish35]

I don't know that the three-year contract is confirmed. IIRC it's just speculation at this point.

As far as her training (and this too is speculation), if they had her take up the Canary "mantle" (so to speak) at the end of the season and then exit to presumably pursue further training offscreen, I think they avoid the issue of whether Laurel can feasibly keep up with Oliver with her current lack of training, because we would not be going to see that.

How plausible this scenario is I think depends on how willing they are to give up having a Canary presence on the show. I can't see any reason in show why Laurel would take up that particular name without Sara having surrendered it somehow, whether by death or retirement or whatever. They're not even having two Arrows on the show

(Roy is becoming Arsenal, not Red Arrow)

so I don't see two Canaries happening, whether Laurel stays or goes.

But this is just my personal take on it, so *shrugs*

Edited September 3, 2014 by Starfish35

[KirkB]

I wonder if maybe they won't have Laurel 'die', that is the others think she's dead when she's actually gone off with Ra's at the end of the season. Not necessarily by choice either. I could see him faking her death and brainwashing her, so in fact she could come back in the future as the White Canary or something in response to both Sara (and Nyssa?) betraying him and his plans being defeated by the team.

Edited September 3, 2014 by KirkB

[willpwr]

That could definitely happen, does anyone remember the timeframe mentioned for Malcolm's LoA training? Tommy was 8, I believe, when he left and I imagine he would have been about the same age or older than Laurel at that point. The writers probably think that since she has basic self-defense training that she might not need much to catch up but IMHO that is ridiculous.

[Morrigan2575]

Malcolm trained with LoA for 2 years and then one presumes he kept up his training, just like Oliver keeps training even after The Island and Hong Kong.  So Malcolm had 2 years hardcore training with the LoA and 20 years of continuing learning/training/practice...which is why he was better than Oliver in S1.

[Starfish35]

I wonder if maybe they won't have Laurel 'die', that is the others think she's dead when she's actually gone off with Ra's at the end of the season. Not necessarily by choice either. I could see him faking her death and brainwashing her, so in fact she could come back in the future as the White Canary or something in response to both Sara (and Nyssa?) betraying him and his plans being defeated by the team.

But that kind of scenario necessitates her future return at some point, and continual plot lines for her. I'm talking getting rid of her altogether. Period. Possible guest appearances down the road somewhere but no guarantees. I don't like the idea of cutting her but stringing her fans along with the promise of a return. It feels too much like they did to Elizabeth Weir on Stargate Atlantis (never ever over the bitterness). If they're going to write her out, write her out. The end. Fans can imagine her off training or starting Birds of Prey with Helena or whatever but as far as Starling City is concerned the Black Canary story would be done.

But I probably have too strong of feelings on this due to past experiences - sorry. :(

Edited September 3, 2014 by Starfish35

[catrox14]

My primary beef with Laurel becoming the Canary is that the Canary is a killer. As is Oliver. Laurel has shown no proclivities towards being a killer. In fact, her primary reason for wanting to take down the Vigilante was because he was a killer. So what I would have to be sold on, is what would be the compelling reason for Laurel to decide that killing is OKEY DOKEY.  And even then I'd be like, "Welp, Laurel is doing yet another about face".  But then even if she does say killing is okay in the service of Starling City and saving people and being a good-doer but then she's already blackmailed and manipulated her way into the DA job..so that's not exactly being a good-doer either.

 

And no, please, spare me a "Laurel is brainwashed into being Black Canary" which is why she magically has superninja skills? That is worse than a time jump of stupidity. IMO

 

And of course, at this point, I don't see what they can to do make an arc towards a hero believable so it should be a villain or just get her off the show.

Edited September 3, 2014 by catrox14

[NumberCruncher]

That inconsistency drives me nuts too, @catrox14.   Laurel was so hell-bent on taking down the Arrow for being a vigilante/killer, but once she discovers Oliver is the Arrow and her sister is an assassin, now she's completely okay with it and willingly joins in the killing?  The woman who touted "We don't need to go outside the law to find justice" is going to...go outside the law. The writers have done her character a disservice for 2 seasons, and it's going to take some serious rewriting of history to make Laurel a believable Black Canary.  It's inevitable that she will be BC, but I have a feeling the writers are going to expect the audience to swallow a lot of characterization flip-flopping and implausibility to get her there.  If I were KC I'd be pissed at Laurel's character progression.

[BkWurm1]

My primary beef with Laurel becoming the Canary is that the Canary is a killer. As is Oliver. Laurel has shown no proclivities towards being a killer. In fact, her primary reason for wanting to take down the Vigilante was because he was a killer. So what I would have to be sold on, is what would be the compelling reason for Laurel to decide that killing is OKEY DOKEY.  And even then I'd be like, "Welp, Laurel is doing yet another about face".  But then even if she does say killing is okay in the service of Starling City and saving people and being a good-doer but then she's already blackmailed and manipulated her way into the DA job..so that's not exactly being a good-doer either.

 

Interestingly the objection I hear to Sara as Black Canary is because she is a killer.  I hear over and over that BC is a hero so someone that came from the LoA and was a killer couldn't possibly be the real BC.  I guess I don't know my Black Canary history well enough to know how far into the grey she would wander so what's the real characterization?. 

Edited September 3, 2014 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

Huh, I didn't think BC was a killer either... Plus, Laurel didn't show any remorse at all when she killed that cop so... 

[Morrigan2575]

I could be wrong but what I think Catrox is referring to are the characters in the show, not how they're presented in the comics. Why woul "good doer" Laurel want to become Canary the Assassin or be like Arrow a vigilante/kikler turned hero?