Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[quarks]

I don't think they've been moving Laurel out as much as they've been moving Oliver and Laurel out. I think they did believe that they could kill Oliver and Laurel and still keep Laurel around as the Black Canary, only, to make this work, they had to hold off making Laurel the Black Canary for a bit (since that would just cement the whole Oliver/Laurel as destined character thing), thus Sara.

 

Having said that, though, there's a huge difference between Laurel in the first five episodes, where she's an integral part of the plot, and the rest of the series, where she's only occasionally an integral part of the main plot, and that usually as a damsel in distress. Her screentime has also been grossly reduced: from ten to twenty minutes per episode, including solo moments, to two or three minutes an episode, if that.  It's not just the episodes where she's not there at all: in Seeing Red she's on screen for 30 seconds, in a flashback.  In Deathstroke, where she learns the truth, she has about a minute and a half of screentime. She only had major screentime in about four episodes this season - Blind Spot, Time of Death, Birds of Prey and the Man Under the Hood. The only two main cast members with fewer screentime/lines this season were Moira and Thea.  That's a significant change.

 

And I think it's fair to say that one reason many fans haven't warmed up to Laurel is that she hasn't done the cool action things that Sara has.  It's hardly the only reason, granted, and I'm personally not convinced that just letting her stunt double do cool things will solve the problem, but it is a reason.

Edited June 25, 2014 by quarks

[TanyaKay]

At this point I don't want to see her as BC. I can't picture the actress in the role, and there's no way Laurel's origin story would rival Sara's. I don't even know why Laurel would want that role -I understand why KC wants it, but what would Laurel get out of it? Whether they meant to or not, they firmly established Sara in this part. I was actually really afraid they were going to kill her off to pave the way for Laurel, but thankfully they didn't. If it ever did occur to the writers to do this, they thought better of it (and for good reason.) I agree with others that Laurel is a better fit for a morally ambiguous Manhunter at this point. I do wonder what the actress, the writers and the producers see that I and so many others don't, though. It's baffling to read their interviews, KC and Kreisberg in particular. All I can figure is that Katie doesn't understand Laurel either and so she tells people what she's been told? It's strange when actors like Stephen, Manu and even Barrowman give solid answers to character questions. Manu even admits sometimes the writers don't have time to explore things enough (why he suddenly loved Shado, why he hated Oliver if it wasn't the Mirakuru.) But after two seasons of terrible story, I'm not convinced they can salvage the character. Just making her part of the action won't be enough.

 

Exactly at least Manu was intelligent enough to question the motivation for his character and then he did the best he could with whatever was given to him. He was also honest enough to admit it that sometimes it did not make a lot of sense to him.

Compare that to Katie who sounds rather childish and all over the place. In any case an adult who uses the word cute and make out in a conversation more that twice sounds absurd at best.

[dtissagirl]

I don't think they've been moving Laurel out as much as they've been moving Oliver and Laurel out. I think they did believe that they could kill Oliver and Laurel and still keep Laurel around as the Black Canary, only, to make this work, they had to hold off making Laurel the Black Canary for a bit (since that would just cement the whole Oliver/Laurel as destined character thing), thus Sara.

 

I agree that they've moved the story away from Oliver/Laurel in a romantic relationship, but obviously haven't given up yet on Laurel as BC. Delaying making her BC so that they could deal with removing her from love interest first makes sense to me. It goes back to the reasoning that people might accept Laurel as Black Canary if Oliver/Felicity is solidified as the main 'ship.

 

However, they did have opportunity to kill Sara in the last episodes of S2 to reinforce Laurel taking up the BC mantle, but they didn't. So I think while they do still plan on turning Laurel into Black Canary sometime in S3, they're keeping Sara alive in the LoA as backup, if their planned Laurel storyline blows up in their face. Again.

[tv echo]

Miscasting, miscasting, miscasting.

 

Laurel on paper - Warm and compassionate lawyer who fights for the downtrodden and who always knew the real Oliver beneath the superficial playboy.

 

Laurel as portrayed by KC - Disdainful and cold lawyer who uses blackmail to get what she wants and who hadn't a clue that Oliver was the Arrow.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Laurel really knew Oliver the best, then she would've been the first to suspect that he was the vigilante in Season 1.

[Password]

If anything I think the writers saw everyone thought Sara would die so changed their minds. I don't know what their plans are concerning how Laurel will turn into BC, but for me beyond the training and looking physically able, Laurel's motivations are what will be a clincher for me. Otherwise it will seem like Laurel basically goes "Oliver and Sara do it so me too".

Edited June 25, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[TanyaKay]

The only way I can accept Laurel as black canary if they turn her into one in the very last scene of the series finale. Anytime before that would be too soon.

[Sakura12]

Laurel's origin story would be my younger sister is awesome and badass and people call her a hero, I WANT!

 

Sara dying would've been a motivation (not a better one, just a motivation) but she didn't die, so that motivation is gone. She could've had one with Tommy but they didn't go with that either, they could've shown her grow disheartened by the unfair justice system but that storyline they gave to Quentin (seeing it again would be pointless). So really Laurel is left with I want my sister wants/has. I guess does make sense with the characterization of Laurel they've shown us thus far. But it's a terrible origin story for a hero. 

[abhi]

Regarding motivation, they have done a better job with Thea, a supporting character, then Laurel ( main character). At least, at the end of the Season we know that Thea wants to be strong and has a badass teacher in the form of Malcom Merlyn. Just what exactly is Laurel's motivation to become a vigilante at the end of the season and who's going to teach her to fight in the haitus, I am not sure of it. Comparing Thea and Laurel, Thea has a great head-start and should be a better fighter than Laurel from hereon throughout the series.

Edited June 25, 2014 by abhi

[icandigit]

 

This next bit is pure projection on my part, but I also don't think the writers anticipated how Cassidy would interpret the role.  Even just audio interpretations can be surprising. Listening to the English versus Castillano versions on the Blu-rays is pretty revealing - Laurel's more sympathetic in Spanish, and that's voicing.

There are so many scenes wither her, where if she just played the scene differently it would have an entirely different feel. I remember her "Who are you?" to Felicity. Saying that with a different tone would have changed the whole scene.I feel like I do that now with every scene she's in. Even that horrible I know you in bones speech could have been done differently.

[Sakura12]

They even showed Thea's beginning journey in the season 1 finale, when she saved Roy, while Laurel was saving a filing cabinet and having to be rescued because she was stupid enough to ignore everyone's warning. 

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

Otherwise it will seem like Laurel basically goes "Oliver and Sara do it so me too".

 

Oh I don't know.  There is also the motivation of "I want Oliver and he likes women with secret identities, so if I have a secret identity, we'll get back together" and of course, the comics, comics, comics, COMICS!!!  I'm inspired by her hero journey already. LOL.

[statsgirl]

I wonder if the original plan was to kill Sara off at the end of s2 so that Laurel could take up the Canary cloak in her name... and then they realized that Sara had become so popular the audience would resent Laurel even more if they killed of Sara for Laurel's sake.

 

Rewatching the episodes is making me increasingly convinced that the show decided to abandon whatever plan they did have for Laurel right around when the second episode aired.

But not the plan to make her Oliver's love interest... Marc Guggenheim was still talking about Oliver and Laurel getting together and breaking up over and over again in an interview this season.

 

 

However, it seems to me that AK/MG really do believe that the fans don't like Laurel because we just want her to be Black Canary already (he said that in an interview) .

If AK really was that delusional back then (and I think he was), all he needs to do is look at the comments at TVLine when the first pictures of Laurel with the bow came out to disillusion himself.  Hundreds of comments against and saying it was unearned, and a few in support.

 

It seems to me that either the EPs are deliberately misleading the audience in order to retain the KC/Laurel fans or they have no clue as to why the character does't work, in which case they should come here and read this thread.  It sounds like they had an idea for who Laurel is when they started the show but the Laurel that KC is playing doesn't work in that.

 

If they want to keep Laurel as a character, they have to move her away both from a love interest for Oliver (because that didn't work even before there were alternatives) and from being the Black Canary.  I have my doubts if she would work as BC even on a BoP show.  I think they'll spend the first third of the season testing the waters to see how she's being received as a pre-Canary, and after Christmas we'll find out if they've decided they're going to go in that direction or another one.

 

I think Arrow has moved away from being a comic/superhero show like Smallville and into being a show for its own sake like Supernatural. If they want to stay on that track, they have to move away from their early ideas about Laurel. 

[Morrigan2575]

If AK really was that delusional back then (and I think he was), all he needs to do is look at the comments at TVLine when the first pictures of Laurel with the bow came out to disillusion himself.  Hundreds of comments against and saying it was unearned, and a few in support.

 

I want to say it was around December?  Right around the time of the mid-season finale.  

 

ETA Found it

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/movienewsandreviews/news/?a=92945

 

Arrow executive producer Andrew Kreisberg spoke with TV Line about the back half of season 2 and touched on some of the criticism fans have of the show's depiction of Laurel Lance, played by actress Katie Cassidy. "You know, it’s been somewhat hard, I think, for Katie and us to hear some of the criticisms of her character because we don’t do anything without thinking about it," said Kreisberg. Fans (myself included at times) have commented that it seems Laurel is often an after thought on the show and that it seems she is very far from becoming her costumed alter-ego, the Black Canary. But Kreisberg says to have patience. "One of the great things about having as much success as we had in Season 1 was the freedom to allow things to unfold the way that they should. We’ve always had a fantastic plan for Laurel’s character, and I know that there’s impatience out there in the world to see her “strap on the fish nets” [as Black Canary] but everything we’re doing is all about leading up to that in a the way that we feel keeps it the most realistic and grounded. To take somebody who is a public interest lawyer and turned her into a super hero… you have to go through the paces. So this season we’ve really been putting her through her paces. We always think of these things as chapters, and these next four episodes are really about Laurel. She’s taking center stage as she begins to suspect that Sebastian is not exactly who he seems

 

Edited June 25, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[calliope1975]

It's interesting to (re)read that quote because on one hand he talks about having patience and going along with the journey that they're telling. And then MG (I think) is the one who said they don't really think about plans they do what they want ASAP which is why we had eleventy billion story lines which all mostly ended up being mediocre and then fizzled out. 

 

If AK still truly believes people are criticizing the Laurel character because she's not BC yet, he isn't functioning in reality. People have well thought out, non-shipper concerns, and I think the show would be more successful if they tried to address those problems. Now, if they recognize the problems and what we saw in S2 WAS their attempt to fix it, then I have nothing. They are incompetent at their job.

[Starfish35]

I wonder if the original plan was to kill Sara off at the end of s2 so that Laurel could take up the Canary cloak in her name... and then they realized that Sara had become so popular the audience would resent Laurel even more if they killed of Sara for Laurel's sake.

I think so.

If AK really was that delusional back then (and I think he was), all he needs to do is look at the comments at TVLine when the first pictures of Laurel with the bow came out to disillusion himself. Hundreds of comments against and saying it was unearned, and a few in support.

There was a huge backlash over that, so much so that they threw out a sneak peak with Oliver telling her how to shoot the bow, in what seemed like an attempt to calm everyone down.

I have wondered a little how that backlash has affected things going forward. Obviously at that point the finale was already filmed. But it kind of seemed like they expected everyone to be all excited about Laurel getting to be part of Team Arrow and shooting the bow, and instead the response was pretty much a resounding NO. And Laurel's "inspirational" speech to Oliver "in his darkest hour" was mocked, while Felicity's was applauded. And instead of the traditional post-finale interviews with the EPs, there has instead been dead silence. It has made me wonder whether some season three plans were being rethought in the wake of the reaction to Laurel in the last few episodes of the season. I might be wrong, but based on that, I don't think Laurel on Team Arrow is going to go over well.

On the other hand, no one has stopped Katie Cassidy from spreading far and wide that she's getting ready to be BC. So....there's that too.

[Sakura12]

Only one of those four episodes was really about Laurel, the rest she was back to being an afterthought. 

 

The only believable way for Laurel to become the BC is to be on the last episode of the series (mostly so I don't have witness it), if they want her story to be real and grounded of a lawyer becoming a super hero. If that's the case then there really is no need for KC to be working out so much, it'll have to be gradual like it is in real life. Laurel has a full time job that should take most of her time, so she'd only have nights and maybe weekends to train and maybe not even that all the time since she's a DA. 

[statsgirl]

I can totally understand what he's saying .... or rather I could if I hadn't been watching the show these past two seasons.  Then it sounds like he's speaking from an alternate reality.

 

 

Fans (myself included at times) have commented that it seems Laurel is often an after thought on the show and that it seems she is very far from becoming her costumed alter-ego, the Black Canary. But Kreisberg says to have patience.

He seems to think that when people say she's an after-thought, they mean "give us more Laurel".  Okay, Andrew, time to do some polling because I really haven't a clue any more other than I know I enjoy the episodes more when she isn't in them..

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think they'll spend the first third of the season testing the waters to see how she's being received as a pre-Canary, and after Christmas we'll find out if they've decided they're going to go in that direction or another one.

 

 

I think we'll find out much sooner than that.  Just watch to see if KC goes media silent.  That'll tell you which direction the EPs are going with the Laurel character.

 

This next bit is pure projection on my part, but I also don't think the writers anticipated how Cassidy would interpret the role.  Even just audio interpretations can be surprising. Listening to the English versus Castillano versions on the Blu-rays is pretty revealing - Laurel's more sympathetic in Spanish, and that's voicing.

 

 

Rewatching some of the season one episodes, I realized that with a more nuanced actress, many of the Laurel scenes could have gone such a different way.  Instead, I'm just getting super-bitchy all of the time when it comes to Laurel. 

[statsgirl]

So if they didn't test her with Stephen Amell, was KC's only screen test with the "Laurel is a crusading lawyer" parts of the script, and showing off her fight scenes from Supernatural?  Because if that's the case, I can see why they hired her, but it was still stupid not to test her with all the parts that make up Laurel.

 

Of all the actors on the show, I think she's the only one who was really miscast. 

[Morrigan2575]

He seems to think that when people say she's an after-thought, they mean "give us more Laurel".  Okay, Andrew, time to do some polling because I really haven't a clue any more other than I know I enjoy the episodes more when she isn't in them..

 

I had to read that interview twice because the first time I read it, I didn't realize that the this comment was the reporter  

Fans (myself included at times) have commented that it seems Laurel is often an after thought on the show and that it seems she is very far from becoming her costumed alter-ego, the Black Canary.

 

So basically even Comic Book Resources have noted that Laurel seems to have no purpose and is just forced into episodes, as @quarks said "what should we do with Laurel?" and as @Sakura12 has said many times "it's like they right an episode and then realize they forgot Laurel and were like crap! Where can we fit her in?"

 

So if they didn't test her with Stephen Amell, was KC's only screen test with the "Laurel is a crusading lawyer" parts of the script, and showing off her fight scenes from Supernatural?  Because if that's the case, I can see why they hired her, but it was still stupid not to test her with all the parts that make up Laurel.

 

Apparently it was a crying scene.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Password]

 

But Kreisberg says to have patience. "One of the great things about having as much success as we had in Season 1 was the freedom to allow things to unfold the way that they should. We’ve always had a fantastic plan for Laurel’s character

 

This really bothers me. It seems like they needed the green light from the great reaction to the second half of s1 to carry out their evil, mastermind plans (that don't involve Felicity and Diggle enough). What gave them the impression that people liked Laurel in all of that, and not Team Arrow? Not just liked her, but that people were patient enough to care about the slow burn of Laurel's journey to the BC.

[Sakura12]

I remember watching season 1 and finding Laurel boring and useless, then in the second season I found her useless and wanted her off my screen. I went back and watched some season episodes just to see if there was difference and wow, she came off as more bitchy and entitled than I remembered. We have the "i'm going to write a scathing review of this restaurant because they are taking too long seating us" and the "Do you know who I am" from this season. If that's their interpretation of a caring, selfless individual I can't imagine what their version of a selfish, entitled character looks like.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

Sakura12, that restaurant scene struck me as so entitled and bitchy and that's even before she embarrassed Tommy in front of Oliver and Helena. It's like she came from vast money and expected to be treated like royalty, where the two guys who really were billionaires were nice and obliging.

 

It seems like Laurel is a square peg (self-centered, bitchy, entitled) in a round hole (caring, crusader lawyer).   Until they write a square hole for her, I don't think the character is ever going to work.

 

 

Apparently it was a crying scene.

Seriously?   Why didn't they actually test her with something she's going to do as the character?

 

When has Laurel cried? The only times I remember were in s2 in the flashback, and in her drinking moments.

[Morrigan2575]

Seriously?   Why didn't they actually test her with something she's going to do as the character?

When has Laurel cried? The only times I remember were in s2 in the flashback, and in her drinking moments.

 

Laurel cries all the freaking time. It's so bad that a fan at the Motor City Con called Laurel a Crybaby while asking KC a question and there's a meme going around, something like New Arrow Episode this Wednesday...spoiler alert Laurel Cries

[statsgirl]

I guess  I'm blocking it out.

 

So they were casting the love interest/superhero companion of the lead, and instead of screen testing her with him and seeing if she could do fight scenes, her screen test was crying?  I guess maybe you do get what you deserve after all.

[Sakura12]

I bet Caity screen test wasn't a crying scene. I think it was her playing a villain or something, so they wanted to see if she can play a badass to be able to play the Black Canary. I think she also said she sent in her parkour and tricking tapes to them. That's probably a main reason she got the part.

 

A crying scene is definitely Laurel, but not at all the Dinah Lance from the comics. The fact that she doesn't even go by the name from comics is telling me she's not the character from the comics. 

 

Or maybe the EP's shouldn't have hired someone better suited for the part of the BC if they still wanted people to buy Laurel as the BC. Plus there was no Laurel "journey" this season. This season was the journey of Sara Lance's Black Canary that was then thrown away in the final minutes of the finale for no reason at all for Laurel.  Which if that was their intention from the start then it is one of the worst storytelling techniques I've ever seen used. 

[Starfish35]

Plus there was no Laurel "journey" this season. This season was the journey of Sara Lance's Black Canary that was then thrown away in the final minutes of the finale for no reason at all for Laurel. Which if that was their intention from the start then it is one of the worst storytelling techniques I've ever seen used.

Completely agreed. It makes no sense. They spent the entire season focused on Sara, not Laurel. Even Laurel's addiction "arc" spent more time on how it affected Sara than how it affected Laurel. So how is this Laurel's journey again?

Edited June 26, 2014 by Starfish35

[TanyaKay]

Laurel's origin story would be my younger sister is awesome and badass and people call her a hero, I WANT!

 

Sara dying would've been a motivation (not a better one, just a motivation) but she didn't die, so that motivation is gone. She could've had one with Tommy but they didn't go with that either, they could've shown her grow disheartened by the unfair justice system but that storyline they gave to Quentin (seeing it again would be pointless). So really Laurel is left with I want my sister wants/has. I guess does make sense with the characterization of Laurel they've shown us thus far. But it's a terrible origin story for a hero. 

 

Lolz, what's next then? Would she want Nyssa because Sara "has" her? Nyssa will break her neck like a twig if it happens. Not everyone is big on sharing like good ol' Ollie!

[quarks]

But not the plan to make her Oliver's love interest... Marc Guggenheim was still talking about Oliver and Laurel getting together and breaking up over and over again in an interview this season.

 

 

Was that Kreisberg or Guggenheim? Kreisberg had that "Lois and Clark" interview, where he brought up their history of breakups and added in the interview "not necessarily romantically" and later said his remarks were taken out of context.

 

(Is it possible that he was responding to some sort of "Ok, well, given that you're promising some sort of major return to Oliver/Felicity, what do you plan to do about Laurel?" with the response of "Sigh. We're kinda stuck with that - it's sorta like Lois and Clark, they get together, break up, divorce, you have to deal with it"? Maybe?)

 

Also, both of them were a bit coy before the season finale - they definitely wanted the fakeout to be a surprise. And then there's Guggenheim's tweet from back in February:

 

https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/438081399162040320

 

This is in answer to a fan asking if this is the end of Laurel and Oliver as a couple. It's not a flat out, "Yes, it is, now stop bugging me," and Guggenheim later said that fans should interpret this as "Well, if they are still alive and well, we can hope." And to be fair, to a certain extent the Oliver/Laurel relationship did get revisited later in the season - mostly from Laurel's side with her "I always felt drawn to you," and "I know you in my bones" stuff and Sara's "Oliver needs you."  

 

But those moments were all pretty overshadowed by the Oliver/Felicity stuff, and Guggenheim's Laurel/Oliver tweet there is far from the, "Yes, we have lots of Olicity moments coming up," and "The Oliver and Felicity moments are one of the core elements of the show," and his later flat out statement post the finale that yes, the "Unthinkable" thing was Oliver giving up the woman he loves, and the several interviews focusing on Oliver/Felicity.

 

The comments on Laurel this season have mostly focused on: 1, admitting that Laurel has not been received well by the fans, with hopeful comments that "maybe, THIS plot twist will do it!" (so far, from what I've seen, not), 2, promises about YAY LAUREL JOURNEY, 3, assurances that this time, really, Katie Cassidy CAN rise to the occasion and act, 4, statements that Laurel is more fun and easy to write now that she knows the truth (this sounds very true, since it seemed to be getting harder and harder for the show to write some contrivance or other or squeeze Laurel into the episode), 5, assurances that fans were going to be really surprised with how Laurel would react to learning the truth (true! She didn't reach for a bottle! That was surprising! Go Laurel!  On the other hand, not true! She made it all about herself and the special bond she "always" felt for the Hood/Arrow and her need for a hug! Right, this is not the bitterness thread. So sorry. Moving on.), 6, assurances that fans are going to be really surprised with what the show plans to do with Laurel! 

 

Now, unfortunately, at least some of these statements have turned out to be, how shall I put it? Perhaps not entirely true.  And yes, Laurel is still on the show, and yes, the indications so far are that Laurel will be in the Arrow Cave next season and becoming the Black Canary.  Those are not developments I am excited about. I'm also aware that my "contract!" and "still shopping Birds of Prey around" explanations for why Laurel is on the show lack something - TV shows haven't hesitated to fire actors under contract before, and my personal sense, given Laurel and Helena's previous interactions on the show, and the unpopularity of Laurel's character, is that Birds of Prey would be an easier sell without Laurel.  The then WB network picked up the Angel spinoff because, whatever the complaints about Boreanz' acting in the first two seasons of Buffy (and there were many), fans loved the character. That's...less true in this instance.  So yeah, this gives the sense that yes, the writers must be planning something here otherwise why keep her on?  And yes, the producers have continued to say that Laurel will always be an important person in Oliver's life. I kinda feel they have to say this to explain why she's on the show.

 

But I'm not seeing a continued push for Laurel and Oliver romantically. I don't think the producers want to make any definitive "never" statements, partly because they don't want to alienate Laurel fans, mostly because they don't know how long the show will run and if EBR and Lotz will want to remain attached to it instead of moving on to other projects after a few more years. But I do think there's a gap between "not ruling it out" and "yes, definitely doing this."  

 

Regarding Laurel's journey: I feel I should point out that Laurel DID take journeys this season! For instance, she got into a car while drunk and drove, which is travelling! So, journey! She traveled out to see Blood's mother which led to getting that poor woman killed! Journey!  And then at the end of the season, despite everyone and everybody telling her to PLEASE STAY SAFE she walked across a burning city forcing her sister to rescue her so JOURNEY! and then she was kidnapped and dragged somewhere else which, again, technically going from one place to another place, so JOURNEY! And then she hit somebody directly in the face instead of shooting him in the back, so JOURNEY! I know most of you are not going to like my definition of "journey" here but I think we should give credit where credit is due.

Edited June 26, 2014 by quarks

[Starfish35]

Was that Kreisberg or Guggenheim?

That was Guggenheim...ETA: quote found, see post below.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

Thanks, Starfish35, that's the quote I was thinking of and I remember being horrified because that's the worst kind of TV trope especially for a couple I don't like int he first place..  I thought it was later in s2 though. (I'll tlry to find it with this starting point.)

 

my personal sense, given Laurel and Helena's previous interactions on the show, and the unpopularity of Laurel's character, is that Birds of Prey would be an easier sell without Laurel.

Lawks, yes. I assumed that if they were trying to sell BoP it would be Huntress, Sara as BC, and Nyssa or if Katrina Law was busy then Sin as Oracle.  I can't see KC on that show at all and assumed that if there is a spin-off, they would want to keep her on Arrow as kind of a shadow BC.  

 

But if they keep Laurel on Arrow, they have to cut out that "I know Oliver better than anyone else does; I know him in my bones" while showing us that no, Laurel didn't and doesn't have a clue who he really is.

Edited June 26, 2014 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

I still don't get what they think they are doing with Laurel. They say one thing about her in interviews Laurel is selfless, good and caring, yet what I see on screen is Laurel being selfish, entitled and delusional.

 

Then when she does a good thing they expect us to cheer for her. Which they think will make people like her and not realize even more that Laurel rarely does good things. 

[Starfish35]

Thanks, Starfish35, that's the quote I was thinking of and I remember being horrified because that's the worst kind of TV trope especially for a couple I don't like int he first place.. I thought it was later in s2 though. (I'll tlry to find it with this starting point.)

Here it is: July 2, 2013 -

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=46389

On balancing the will they/won't they aspect of Oliver and Laurel's relationship on "Arrow": I think any time you do a TV show, and you've got two people together who are star-crossed lovers and they're destined to be together, but you don't want them together because you run into the "Moonlighting" problem of your two main characters, once they actually end up together, in a committed relationship, then it seems to lose all of its sexual spark.The little magic trick that we have to do with Oliver and Laurel is, keep bringing them together and pulling them apart, bringing them together and pulling them apart.

Yeah, I think a lot of people, including myself, were horrified by that quote.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Starfish35

[formerlyfreedom]

We're getting a little off-topic in here - I'm seeing more relationship discussion then discussion on Laurel, so let's get back on track please and thanks! 

 

ETA: I've moved some posts over to the relationship thread, so if you are looking for something that seems to be gone, please check over there.

[Starfish35]

Never mind.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Starfish35

[poetgirl925]

I didn't realize they were shopping a BoP spinoff around. Way back when I first heard that Arrow would include Dinah Laurel Lance, I hoped for a BoP show. I used to collect BC and BoP comics, so I went into this show highly predisposed to liking the character. It's really bad they can't sell this character to someone who wanted to like her. I'd definitely watch BoP if it included Sara, but I'll never be on board with a show headed up by Laurel/KC. And while the producers might be deluding themselves, I really think the network execs know better. They rarely promote Laurel. In fact, I don't think I've seen anything promoting Laurel since the infamous 'Laurel shoots a bow' pics/video. I saw those pics during my break from the show and I remember thinking "Well, glad I'm not watching that this week!"

Even at the end of S1 when I really despised both her and Oliver, I was still trying to think of ways the character could be improved. Then S2 happened and I'm pretty much done. Even the one thing I was hoping for - that she'd be smart enough to figure out Arrow and the woman in black once Sara showed up - didn't happen. Instead of looking at how that reveal could benefit Laurel, especially after they forced her suspicions of Blood, they made that information part of Slade's plan. That made no sense to me because Slade had a lot going on and that was just a tiny part of what he was up to. Something that could have been written to show Laurel in a better light ended up making her look really stupid, and not just because she answered her UNLOCKED DOOR without checking who was there and then just stood there like having him show up was no big deal. If Arrow were a horror movie, Laurel would be dead a hundred times over by now, so yeah - this is not the Black Canary I was hoping for and somewhere in the comic world, the real Dinah Laurel would probably love nothing more than to smack everyone involved in creating such a mess of a character. It's a bad sign that they can't even sell this character to someone like me who was actively looking for reasons to like her.

I really can't think of anything they could do with Laurel next season that will change how I feel now. Bad writing has been compounded by (at best) mediocre acting. I've never actually seen KC in anything else - I've never heard of her before Arrow - but I agree with others here that the way KC portrays Laurel is a big part of the problem. After 2 seasons, I doubt her portrayal will change even if the writing improves. Since BC started out in The Flash universe, I'm sort of hoping they'll send her over there and then teleport her into the future -I can dream, right?

Edited June 26, 2014 by poetgirl925

[TanyaKay]

I don't think people in the Flash universe would like to be saddled with a character like hers. The writers should realize that there is no hope for KC and should they decide to do anything with BC, they need to build it around Sara. She can always take up her mother's name after her death to honor her or something and develop her independent of Oliver Queen. I always wonder about the comic purists who support Laurel. Shouldn't they support the character of BC and the actress who portrays it best instead of the actress who ruins EVERYTHING!

[poetgirl925]

I don't understand comic purists anyway. There's not a single, set canon for Oliver or Dinah in the comics which means they're in favor of limited canon at best. I mean, I might only support BC when she's not connected to GA at all - in that case, am I still a purist? They act like the only canon that ever existed is the one they support, but there are many continuities having nothing at all to do with Dinah Laurel or GA, and that includes the New 52. I'm surprised so-called 'purists' even watch Arrow tbh - it's so different that it must drive them bananas. These are the same dudes who want a cheesy comic knockoff straight down to Oliver's goatee and Dinah's fishnets, both of which would tank the show. If comic purists were enough to keep a live action comic based show on the air, there would be a lot more of them on TV.

[KirkB]

I don't understand comic purists anyway. There's not a single, set canon for Oliver or Dinah in the comics which means they're in favor of limited canon at best. I mean, I might only support BC when she's not connected to GA at all - in that case, am I still a purist? They act like the only canon that ever existed is the one they support, but there are many continuities having nothing at all to do with Dinah Laurel or GA, and that includes the New 52. I'm surprised so-called 'purists' even watch Arrow tbh - it's so different that it must drive them bananas. These are the same dudes who want a cheesy comic knockoff straight down to Oliver's goatee and Dinah's fishnets, both of which would tank the show. If comic purists were enough to keep a live action comic based show on the air, there would be a lot more of them on TV.

 

Me neither. I used to be a hardcore comic fan but I was never a purist, because even from a young age I realized how fluid the medium was. My favorite character, the Hulk, literally changed colors a few times. Even when a character has a classic look, personality or relationship, doesn't mean it won't change the next time a writer wants to do something different. I'm not as familiar with Dinah Lance as I am some characters but I'm pretty sure the character who was introduced originally is not the same one in the books now. Actually, I know she's not, since they retconned the original to be her mother. You might wake up one day, open your new Black Canary comic and find out the character is now a middle aged Asian guy.

[Sakura12]

That's why I never got the because comics excuse. The comics are changed so often whatever happens in one is completely changed when someone else takes over. Plus there's all these alternate universes, which is how I see Arrow. In this version Oliver Queen was stranded on an island for 5 years, with Slade Wilson and Shado and Dinah Lance had two daughters instead of one and it's her thought dead youngest daughter that becomes the Black Canary instead of her. 

 

Just like the newest version of the comics where Green Arrow and Black Canary don't even know each other and she has no children. 

[poetgirl925]

Haha - I can remember my uncle and brother complaining about some Hulk changes lol. I got my first comics from my uncle, and he was a BC fan as well. Dinah Drake was the original BC and debuted in The Flash back in the 40s I think. She wasn't a meta human - no Canary cry as far as I can remember. She wanted to be a cop but wasn't allowed to; since her father had trained her in fighting techniques, she used them as a vigilante instead. The retcon you're talking about happened in the 80s to explain why there was suddenly a much younger BC with a Canary cry and involved a super weird story in which Dinah Drake's memories were transferred to Dinah Laurel. That Dinah Laurel was also not a meta human - she was cursed as a baby. Then there was another reboot in the 90s and again in the 2000s, both of which had meta Dinah Laurel born to original BC and training to follow in her mother's footsteps. The current BC in the New 52 is back to Dinah Drake, so technically Laurel doesn't exist in current comic canon at all. (Can someone please tell KC this?) I love the comics, but I've always been fine with changing canon in reboots because it's a new story involving familiar characters. If they were all the same, what would be the point? This is why I hate when people ask "Why should Laurel be BC?" and the answer is "Because comics." I find it really infuriating, and none of this canon can be used to explain anything on Arrow involving Laurel the show character.

Going back to Laurel though, a writer friend and I were discussing whether or not we found anything about Laurel to be out of character during the past two seasons. I'm arguing no because in two seasons, I'm not sure her character has been firmly established. She tends to tilt whichever way the script calls for. I could maybe say her suddenly sleeping with Oliver in the S1 finale was OOC, but she was so wishy washy before that it's iffy. I can definitely think of instances where other characters were behaving OOC because of a scene or plot revolving around her though, especially this season. Anyone want to weigh in?

[scarynikki12]

I can understand a desire to stay true to the comics in specific circumstances.  Keeping the characterization of the Black Canary consistent from comic to show, for instance.  I want her to stay strong and kick ass, not a perpetual Damsel in Distress, which is why I cannot support Laurel taking on the mantle.  On the other hand, there's no need for the Black Canary to be named Laurel, so I absolutely think that making the change to Sara works and defaulting to the argument that it isn't like the comics fails.

[poetgirl925]

I've been reading all the interviews and viewing all the panels I can find. I really think most of my reason for thinking Laurel is BC in S3 has to do with KC and how she's handling promoting her character, how she's answering questions about other characters - it's sort of in direct contrast to others being rather quiet on what's coming. They either say they don't know or they can't answer. I can't find anything where any other person has teased 'Laurel may be BC in S3.' I can't even find any post-finale producer interviews. Is anyone answering these questions other than KC? While I can't imagine KC would make such a big deal about it if she didn't know SOME details, she's also on record saying there's nothing between Oliver and Felicity while others (the actors, producers, the network) directly contradict that. The CW seems to be promoting it as the main ship atm and haven't teased anything Laurel related at all.

[Sunshine]

AK (KC's biggest cheerleader) said right before 2.23 that we would know who would be the BC at the end of 43 minutes.  We got the magical jacket and Oliver hand-off from Sarah in that episode.  KC did an interview with someone the next day saying that is what it meant.  In the last week, Colton was quoted somewhere about Sarah coming back and seeing different facets and also mentioned the jacket hand-off.  (I on the other hand am in denial). 

[apinknightmare]

 

AK (KC's biggest cheerleader) said right before 2.23 that we would know who would be the BC at the end of 43 minutes.

 

This is OT for this thread, I know, but I think he was messing with the audience. What he said was, "Will Laurel not end up being Black Canary, with Sara taking the title?  Kreisberg: The answer to that question will be apparent 43 minutes after you start watching the finale."

 

Which, IMO, basically means nothing. It kind of implies that something happens at the end of the ep, which is a) 42 minutes long (not 43), and b) the jacket scene was like, 8 minutes before the end. If he were being definitive, he'd have said "You'll know by the end of the ep." These guys are all liars though, so who even knows. 

[abhi]

Yeah, nothing the EPs say should be taken too seriously. Kreisberg also laughed after saying that 43 minutes dialogue. So, who knows, maybe they are screwing with our expectations. According to Twitter Cassidy has already read the script for 3.01, and had said that its a page turner. So, maybe she has gotten her wish and will be insta Canary.

[Sakura12]

According to Twitter Cassidy has already read the script for 3.01, and had said that its a page turner. So, maybe she has gotten her wish and will be insta Canary.

 

I'm waiting for SDCC to see what's announced, if it's that then Arrow is definitely off my DVR. 

[scarynikki12]

It's entirely possible that she means she turned the pages really fast looking for the reveal of Laurel as the BC, only to find that it isn't there.  That would, technically, be a page turner.

[TanyaKay]

Haha - I can remember my uncle and brother complaining about some Hulk changes lol. I got my first comics from my uncle, and he was a BC fan as well. Dinah Drake was the original BC and debuted in The Flash back in the 40s I think. She wasn't a meta human - no Canary cry as far as I can remember. She wanted to be a cop but wasn't allowed to; since her father had trained her in fighting techniques, she used them as a vigilante instead. The retcon you're talking about happened in the 80s to explain why there was suddenly a much younger BC with a Canary cry and involved a super weird story in which Dinah Drake's memories were transferred to Dinah Laurel. That Dinah Laurel was also not a meta human - she was cursed as a baby. Then there was another reboot in the 90s and again in the 2000s, both of which had meta Dinah Laurel born to original BC and training to follow in her mother's footsteps. The current BC in the New 52 is back to Dinah Drake, so technically Laurel doesn't exist in current comic canon at all. (Can someone please tell KC this?) I love the comics, but I've always been fine with changing canon in reboots because it's a new story involving familiar characters. If they were all the same, what would be the point? This is why I hate when people ask "Why should Laurel be BC?" and the answer is "Because comics." I find it really infuriating, and none of this canon can be used to explain anything on Arrow involving Laurel the show character.

Going back to Laurel though, a writer friend and I were discussing whether or not we found anything about Laurel to be out of character during the past two seasons. I'm arguing no because in two seasons, I'm not sure her character has been firmly established. She tends to tilt whichever way the script calls for. I could maybe say her suddenly sleeping with Oliver in the S1 finale was OOC, but she was so wishy washy before that it's iffy. I can definitely think of instances where other characters were behaving OOC because of a scene or plot revolving around her though, especially this season. Anyone want to weigh in?

 

I can recall episode 12 where everyone was acting like an idiot to make Laurel look like the smartest person in the room when she was going after Blood. I mean uber hacker Felicity was outsmarted by some random security guy?

[pootlus]

Given that it's her job to read the script, a page turner is a given, I would think!

I'm also waiting for SDCC to get a feel for at least the early part of the season to see if I'm still going to watch.