Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[kismet]

I could take it in the first eps. A little rusty plus not getting enough sleep at night. ;) And DDs magic!

Double Down is a meta and anyone can get hit by a flying skin card.

Anarky is when I started getting a little skeptical. And the rest of the fight scenes since then has been bulls*it from OQ perspective. Everyone can get caught unawares. But the Lady Cop incident is not a lucky moment. It's a trend and frankly I don't like it one bit.

Edited November 8, 2015 by kismet

[DeadZeus]

True, but Oliver has been on his toes throughout the series, thwarting several of Nyssa's attempts at killing him to escape the mariage. Oliver praises Tactical Awareness to Barry and to be mindful of his surroundings, yet he gets shanked in the back by a cop... I get they have a story to tell but making Oliver weak all of a suddon is just poor writing imo.

While i'm enjoying the acting more and more... but the badassness is gone... He even said YOU HAVE FAILED THIS CITY again.. I was like ooh yea!!... and then ooh -_- here we go again lol

[calliope1975]

This guy - can we talk about this guy and how proud I am of him? A mature response to getting bitched at all episode. Poor guy didn't know why he'd done wrong but was willing to give supportive pep talks and give space when needed. He opened up to his friend and accepted advice. He didn't push or get angry in return. He fucking journals. Journaling, people!

 

I adore this guy.

[lemotomato]

I remember how people were saying that it would be nice, for a change, to see Oliver be the stable, supportive guy for his loved ones while they go through their shit, just like they were always there for him. Mature Oliver is a pretty wonderful guy.

[bijoux]

And is also looking for advice in the right place and being completely honest with his bro. I adored him opening up to Diggle about everything and then answering that he was feeling better. Not good just yet, but better, thanks for helping me clear my head and giving me perspective, how did you propose to Lyla, by the way, and how long should I wait before I bring up kids?

[Password]

Not good just yet, but better, thanks for helping me clear my head and giving me perspective, how did you propose to Lyla, by the way, and how long should I wait before I bring up kids?

So you heard this too?

[Angel12d]

Oliver was so good in this episode and I loved how much we saw his growth as a character. He's come so far since his scared-of-commitment days and running off with the first woman he finds. This is Oliver deeply in love and committed and devoted to his relationship and I really loved seeing him be the supportive one for a change. 

[kismet]

I have always loved Oliver Queen. I was so proud of him this episode. Let's face it I have been proud of him all season. I never hated him in s3, like some people did. But that didn't dampen my pride & happiness about how stable & mature OQ has become. There is a reason she chose you and it's more than just your shirt allergy & cooking skills.

I love supportive loving OQ with a big heart & puppy eyes. He also is learning. His first in the episode crashed & burned. As did some of his other attempts. But he gave her space which is what ahe asked for and he tried to listen to her by the end. It was progress. I also liked that he apologized because it shows that he cares. He unintentionally made things worse by some of his attempts, so I liked that he said he was sorry for that.

[AyChihuahua]

I have always loved Oliver Queen. I was so proud of him this episode. Let's face it I have been proud of him all season. I never hated him in s3, like some people did. 

That would be me.  Very nearly hated his guts.  But yeah, so far in S4 I haven't even been irritated with him.  He's been great, and I am also proud of him.

[kismet]

Yep, I know who some of you are :) ... but we are not allowed to talk about other people on this forum. I'm glad you are proud of him. S3 was a dark time even for those like me who stood by him.

[looptab]

We all pretty much agree that the flashbacks are not the greatest thing on the show. One thing that bothers me particularly, though, it's that not only there seems to be little progression towards Oliver becoming the person he was in season 1, but that he is still kinda naive.

 

In the season 3 premiere he made all that fuss about not being able to really trust anyone during the time he was away (even if he did trust a fair amount of people on the island -Yao Fei, Shado, Slade, Sara, Anatoly, that priest). Yet I believed it, because after what happened with Slade, it made sense he would be much more cautious with people. Then, S3 flashbacks, and he becomes part of the Yamashiro family. I didn't read a lot of mistrust there, quite the opposite.

 

Now, in S4, here we are with Poppy, and a part of me just wishes she is some sort of backstabber, to teach him a lesson. Because, I get you're being a hero and all, saving the poor girl, but FFS, you're there on a secret spy-mission, how the hell do you know she isn't going to sell/out you the first chance she gets?

There he is, again being all trusting and.. kind of an idiot? IDK, it's been nagging at the back of my mind for a while. 

Edited November 15, 2015 by looptab

[Sakura12]

I'm also still wondering when dark Oliver is going to show up. We are still seeing naive, trusting, save everyone Oliver 4 years in. His main kills so far have been to save Shado, killing a dying bad guy so Sara didn't have to and self defense. How does that guy become the kill everyone that gets in his way from season 1.

 

At least with Sara they showed her in her kill to survive mode after 1 year. She also didn't trust Oliver at first and her only naivety came from her Stockholm Syndrome with Ivo. But we saw her get over that quickly and turn against him. They we also had Russian mobster call her scary because she wanted to strap an unstable bomb to a guy to kill Slade. Sara's darkness was there from the beginning. They never wavered from Sara being a dark character. 

 

They are however wavering with Oliver now. We are seeing hero good guy Oliver in the present. We should be seeing dark, do what it takes Oliver in the past so we can see how far he's come. 

[dtissagirl]

I kinda think the idea behind the flashback was very naive, if not ill-conceived.

 

Stephen has mentioned it a bunch of times in interviews, that present time Oliver and flashback Oliver are in opposite arcs, and he has talked a lot about how he has to keep all the character stuff that's happened in check to know how to play the different facets of the character. Which for him as an actor might be pretty aces, sure, but for me as a viewer, my investment in it ends in the very abstract notion of appreciating an actor doing this kind of thing, and not at all in appreciating the opposing arcs.

 

Which I don't. Because what ended up happening as the seasons progressed was -- flashback Oliver becoming pilot Oliver accomplishes nothing now. Present time Oliver hasn't been pilot Oliver for 3 and a half years. He's so far removed from pilot Oliver, that pilot Oliver doesn't have any kind of influence in the storyline anymore -- much less a previous Oliver than one from 75 episodes ago. So the arc of the flashbacks is obsolete, and 100% incapable of giving present time Oliver -- the one the audience is invested in -- any kind of character development whatsoever.

[BkWurm1]

Part of my issue with Flashback Oliver right now is he's too much like current day Oliver.  SA has had my admiration for how different he's played present day Oliver and FB Oliver but right now, they seem like the same guy and FB Oliver should be at least as reserved and messed up as season 2 Oliver.  (Since season two would be Oliver after a year of sort of healing) 

 

The actor that played Constantine said it was hard for him at first to "find" his character again and I feel that is what is happening to SA.  I appreciate the present day guy and I like the changes, they make sense, but it feels like he's lost touch with how to be the PTSD guy from the first few seasons which is who I feel we should be seeing in the flashbacks at this point.  I swear he seems lighter in the current FB than he was mid season 3 flashback.   Maybe his stint as a completely different character for Turtles combined with Happy Oliver have left him a tad bit out of touch with who FB Oliver should be. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

I also think SA has perhaps become a little too cocky in his abilities. I know he has photographic memory and he seems to know a lot about the show. So maybe he doesn't think he needs to review the previous seasons, but I wonder if he reviewed the old seasons if that would help. I think @BkWurm1 you are on to something that SA may have lost touch with how to play the damaged guy. I honestly have no idea what his process is, but honestly his performance in the FB has been wanting this season, add that to a lackluster supporting cast, plot & FB script and its becoming problematic.

 

Or maybe he's missing the power of the Wig. The loss of the wig is having a Samson effect on his performance.

[dtissagirl]

I kinda find the two pretty different. I think flashback Oliver has a little murder and A LOT of detachment in his eyes. And I think the whole point of Poppy might be that he's trying to keep a sense of attachment to other people, because he knows he's losing it. Since I disagree that he has to become ~evil~ to match pilot Oliver -- I just think he needs to become a lethal weapon/soldier -- it makes sense to me... I just DON'T CARE, because becoming pilot Oliver is irrelevant to the narrative at this point.

[looptab]

Maybe they should have kept the Slade storyline for the 5th season. Have them go through all kinds of things on the island or elsewhere, and then break the friendship on the 5th year. That could have been the last straw.

[tarotx]

I personally think that Oliver in both year 4s is supposed to be Similar. Though FB a transitional phase before going darker and present day a first steps out of PTSD. I do think it might be hard for SA to play that slight difference. I can see a difference though in episodes like 4.6, when current Oliver has to show self doubt and insecuritues, they are pretty much in the same place.

[statsgirl]

In terms of being an actor, I would have thought that he'd relish playing two such different Oliver's.  Has he gone soft?

 

Or maybe he's missing the power of the Wig. The loss of the wig is having a Samson effect on his performance.

I know you said it like a joke but I think there might be some truth to that. The wig was a physical manifestation that this is a very different Oliver than the one in the present.  It's easier to forget that now and just play himself.

 

I don't understand why fb Oliver hasn't arranged for an "accident" to happen to Conklin yet.  He should be at that stage where he's just going to take out the guy that's risking exposing his mission.

Edited November 16, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

I know you said it like a joke but I think there might be some truth to that. The wig was a physical manifestation that this is a very different Oliver than the one in the present.  It's easier to forget that now and just play himself.

It was a joke... But I also meant it as a truth. I feel like the wig added something to the FB. It was visual reminder of a different time. I also think it helped the audience  & actor get into a different mindset.

 

Haircuts can be powerful things IRL & on shows... I just wonder if perhaps this haircut had negative effect on the performances.

[AyChihuahua]

I kinda find the two pretty different. I think flashback Oliver has a little murder and A LOT of detachment in his eyes. And I think the whole point of Poppy might be that he's trying to keep a sense of attachment to other people, because he knows he's losing it. Since I disagree that he has to become ~evil~ to match pilot Oliver -- I just think he needs to become a lethal weapon/soldier -- it makes sense to me... I just DON'T CARE, because becoming pilot Oliver is irrelevant to the narrative at this point.

SERIOUSLY.  He just was not that bad in present day S1.  Killing me with the whole "He must become SO DARK."  

[dtissagirl]

I don't think he was bad at all in S1. Imo, bad and dark are in no way the same thing. People can go to really dark places -- and PTSD can be incredibly dark -- without being "bad". He was a soldier, he fought the war, and the war won.

[Angel12d]

IMO, I want to see a darker Oliver in flashbacks because s1 Oliver was a lot darker than he is now, especially in the sense that he had no issues with killing people. He had no problem keeping secrets or lying to his family and friends. He had his emotional walls up.  He was pretty single-minded in his focus to destroy everyone on his father's list. And he had extreme PTSD. I guess I want to see more of how he became that Pilot Oliver especially. 

[dtissagirl]

I think what they set up to do is bound to fail, to be honest. This is a guy who in the pilot was completely detached from everyone, and from his own emotions, but he still wanted to save the city -- which is not only an inherently "good" thing to want to do, but also something that showed that he actually wasn't THAT detached. You don't try to save people if you generally don't care.

And... There's not enough screen time, nor quality, nor gravitas in the flashbacks to accomplish that.

[Angel12d]

I think what they set up to do is bound to fail, to be honest. This is a guy who in the pilot was completely detached from everyone, and from his own emotions, but he still wanted to save the city -- which is not only an inherently "good" thing to want to do, but also something that showed that he actually wasn't THAT detached. You don't try to save people if you generally don't care.

And... There's not enough screen time, nor quality, nor gravitas in the flashbacks to accomplish that.

 

I agree. I think in my head I just expected Oliver to be a little bit more detached by now? And someone with serious trust issues too. But helping Poppy (can't believe I'm actually calling her that, it's caught on haha!) and treating everyone pretty well is not really meshing with my head canon, I guess. 

 

Of course there's still time before we circle back to Pilot Oliver so who knows?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Angel12d

[kismet]

I think there is a difference between dark and evil. I don't need to see OQ become evil or bad. Because I do not think he was evil or bad in s1. I think he was detached & broken. He most definitely suffered from PTSD. He was lost and his laser focus on the mission seemed more pathological than healthy. He wasn't out to save the city. He was set on fixing his father's wrong. It wasn't until Dig or FS that he even considered that his mission to right his father's wrongs could align with saving the city.

 

I guess I want to see how he got there. I know that the fb are not necessarily critical to the narrative of the season. But for me, I am invested in OQ; it is important what happened to him that caused the change. I do want to see how he got from being the naïve directionless selfish party boy to the committed selfless focused man who is sacrificing/devoting his time to save other people both by night & day now. Perhaps if they had ended the fb after s1 or s2, they could have found another way to tell it. But they chose the fb writing technique, so now we are stuck with them. I do think the fb have become boring and stale. But that is more on the writing than anything. I do think SA’s acting in the fb has become lackluster in comparison to other seasons. Part of me attributes it to the writing and his supporting cast. This island crew & Poppy are a pretty uninspiring group. 

 

I do think that @TAROTX may be onto something and perhaps fb & pd OQ are supposed to be similar because this is the transitional year. When he tortured Shrieve it seemed to come out of nowhere. But the OQ we met in s1 was more systematic & methodical. The violence in s1 wasn’t random or forced out of circumstance. So OQ needs to become more methodical in how he approaches situations. The first 3 seasons had him following someone around & doing what they said. At least on the island, he seems to be having to think on his feet and chart his own course. Perhaps in a few episodes, we will see more of a turn as he begins to see that some of his decisions do not always have easy choices or the desired outcomes.

Edited November 17, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

I think what they set up to do is bound to fail, to be honest. This is a guy who in the pilot was completely detached from everyone, and from his own emotions, but he still wanted to save the city -- which is not only an inherently "good" thing to want to do, but also something that showed that he actually wasn't THAT detached. You don't try to save people if you generally don't care.

I think they can do it if they write it as doing it for his father rather because he cares about the city.  When Oliver first came back, he was only about The List and everything else could go hang.  It took Diggle to get him to notice other people (paying the medical bills for the cop who had been shot in the bank robbery) and Felicity to get him to target bad guys who weren't on The List (i.e. The Dodger).

 

If they play it as Oliver is so deep in PTSD that the only thing he can concentrate on is his father's request to save the city from the people on the List, I can see them doing it.  But would they have the courage?

 

Also as Oliver goes through his years away, it seems like he actually has less PTSD now than he did in season 1 and 2.  Wrong way, show.

[apinknightmare]

I think they made a mistake showing that Oliver hooded up and tried to be a vigilante in Coast City. It seemed so...IDK, good-natured and sweetly naive of him. I really thought that he embarked on his whole crusade specifically for his father. Like, when Felicity asked him if it had ever occurred to him that he could do some real good in the city, now we know that it had at one point - he had already tried it. 

 

Oliver left Hong Kong because he thought he wasn't "good enough" to return home or whatever, and I get that he was trying to find himself and hold onto something that made him feel like a worthy person, I just think it was the wrong way to start out the flashbacks this year. I don't think Oliver has to go super OMG DARK, but I guess since I've had three-ish years to think about how he became the dude in the pilot, I had different expectations about how that would happen. He's still connecting with people. We still have a year and a half to go though, so - maybe the dude he killed in the water last week will be the beginning of the lying, scheming, detached guy we saw in S1. 

[kismet]

Hooding up in Coast City was a bad idea to start the Flashbacks. It set the wrong tone. Also Waller's comment about some interesting hobbies diminished a lot of what he did. It was a cool line and all, but it would have been better if he didn't Hood up first in CoC.

[looptab]

Also "Let me wait another couple years before I go home to honor my father", haha.

I don't know, I don't have much of a problem with him being the Hood in Coast City. I saw that not so much as doing good for the sake of doing good, as he later understood he could do, but more like giving into whatever overtook him when dealing with Shrieve. With people who, in his mind, deserved it, so he could justify his actions. They also showed him going after a drug dealer, maybe it was related to Thea. Instead when he came back to Starling, he was in single-minded revenge mode, so it must have happened something that shifted his focus and made him finally decide to act, and act the way he did. Does that make any sense? 

Edited November 17, 2015 by looptab

[KirkB]

It seems to me the more they show what Oliver went through, the less Oliver makes sense, which is counterintuitive. A guy stuck, more or less alone, on an island for 5 years with little more to do than train himself by shooting a bow and parkouring off cliffs while raging about his dead father and fulfilling his last wish and going after the people on his list fits the cold, merciless killer we saw in the pilot and early season 1. A guy who had friends and perhaps several girlfriends while on the island and was not actually ON the island for chunks of the time doesn't quite mesh with the PTSD, cold hearted assassin we first met. Granted, they still have a ways to go and a ton more flashbacks to bore us...I mean, show us, but I still wish they'd focus on the now. I was marginally interested in how Oliver became that guy when he WAS that guy but he's evolved beyond that now, so what's the point?

[apinknightmare]

 

I don't know, I don't have much of a problem with him being the Hood in Coast City. I saw that not so much as doing good for the sake of doing good, as he later understood he could do, but more like giving into whatever overtook him when dealing with Shrieve. With people who, in his mind, deserved it., so he could justify his actions.They also showed him going after a drug dealer, maybe it was related to Thea. Instead when he came back to Starling, he was in single-minded revenge mode, so it must have happened something that shifted his focus and made him finally decide to act, and act the way he did. Does that make any sense?

 

I just think it was narratively not the best choice, because they didn't tell us why he was doing it. Also, because he fumbled with it and was totally inept, it just seemed naive and do-gooder instead of like he was looking for an outlet for anything, and it doesn't at all match up with the kind of fighter he was at that point in time. 

 

I'm guessing next year someone is going to tell him about the Undertaking and that he's got to come home to finally right his father's wrongs or whatever in the hell, and he'll recommit to hooding up. I just wish that we hadn't seen pre-Hood vigilante-ing. Takes some of the sentimentality away from his choice to suit up IMO.

Edited November 17, 2015 by apinknightmare

[looptab]

Yeah, I get what you mean.  I agree that it wasn't the best choice, what I wrote above is totally just my head canon, and I'm almost certain something will happen at some point that will completely undo it. This show forces us to come up with interpretations for their random moves, this works for me, haha. (For now). And you're right, he was a better fighter during the Amazo flashbacks than in that premiere's one.

 

I had the same thought about the Undertaking and someone telling him to go home, but he didn't really know what it was he was fighting when he got back, so, maybe?

[apinknightmare]

I had the same thought about the Undertaking and someone telling him to go home, but he didn't really know what it was he was fighting when he got back, so, maybe?

 

Oh yeah, that's right. He didn't know what was going on, just that he was going after these people on his father's list. I'm curious about what makes him want to do that, although I don't have any faith at this point that it'll be even remotely good, haha.

[looptab]

Oh yeah, that's right. He didn't know what was going on, just that he was going after these people on his father's list. I'm curious about what makes him want to do that, although I don't have any faith at this point that it'll be even remotely good, haha.

You are smarter than I am. I keep hoping, haha.

[Carrie Ann]

I'm not watching this season's flashbacks until conditions improve (i.e., you guys tell me something interesting happens), but to my mind, they can only end one of two ways in order to get Oliver where he needs to be by end of next season. Either they fridge Poppy, or they first have her turn out to be bad and then they kill her. Something has to make him feel hopeless, distrusting, indifferent about his own survival, convinced he can't form relationships, and I don't understand why they'd put all of that into the Bratva season. (It better be the g-d Bratva season, or so help me...) That's not the place to make him become disillusioned, when he wouldn't have any illusions about it in the first place. But right now, Poppy just seems like Shado 2.0 (except instead of training Oliver in something useful, she's reliant on him). I guess the only way I see her death being different for Oliver is that maybe he would determine that he can't actually save anyone? That it's better just to go after the bad guys than to try to save the good ones?

[Angel12d]

I still have some hope that Poppy turns out bad. She was already pretty terrible allowing people to be tortured and killed for stealing drugs when she was the one who stole them. Oliver placing his last remaining trust in the wrong woman only to be betrayed in the end would definitely set him on a darker path. That combined with Oliver maybe getting closer to the bad guys on the island and the lines getting blurred with the mission would make this better, IMO. But I really don't know what they're doing this year. 

[statsgirl]

Poppy let a guy get shot but she did speak up when Oliver was torturing the other guy.  So while she's not hero material (would have spoken up before anyone killed), she's not worse than most people would be in real life.  She seems like an ordinary nice person who maybe was on a cruise and got taken up by pirates and turned in slave labor.  They're going to have to do something drastic to make Oliver turn evil, like give her a personality.  If he turns cold-hearted because she's killed, it's going to be a cheat since he didn't for Sara or Shado and they meant more to him than Poppy seems to.

 

 

Instead when he came back to Starling, he was in single-minded revenge mode, so it must have happened something that shifted his focus and made him finally decide to act, and act the way he did. Does that make any sense?

It makes sense but s4 flashback Oliver is so much like the s4 present day Oliver that I'm beginning to doubt they have the guts to make him turn bad. He hasn't even killed except in self-defense. At this point, he'll become a Bratva captain by doing Anatoly a favor.

[kismet]

They have to make Poppy bad... I just don't see her being an innocent person. Also fbOQ needs to be betrayed by somebody. You don't develop some of the issues he had in s1 if nobody betrays you. The only person that betrayed him was Slade, but that can be explained with the mirakuru.

 

Also, I have been thinking if part of the reason they had OQ hood up in fb was to somehow make the other masked heroes journeys seem more comparable. Perhaps they were trying to knock him down a rung. By showing us OQ hooding up to get over what happened to Akio and fighting the darkness in him (or whatever reasons they tried to come up with) in many ways he was just like LL or TQ. He is just like every other mask now on the show that put the mask on to fight his inner demons & save people without the proper training or mindset. I feel like they weakened OQ in the FB to make everybody else look better, just like how they are weakening his fighting in the present day to make everyone else look better. It's sad, but I think its unfortunately might be true.

[AyChihuahua]

They're going to have to do something drastic to make Oliver turn evil, like give her a personality.  

 

It makes sense but s4 flashback Oliver is so much like the s4 present day Oliver that I'm beginning to doubt they have the guts to make him turn bad. He hasn't even killed except in self-defense. At this point, he'll become a Bratva captain by doing Anatoly a favor.

The first part above made me LOL.  TBH, I don't think the actress can infuse the character with a personality.

 

Re the bottom part, he has already done Anatoly a favor.  He freed him from the Amazo and got him on a submarine and on his way off the island.

 

I do agree that he has to go somewhat darker, but I don't think, and have never thought, they'll go that dark.  Because (1) he's a budding superhero; (2) they don't have the guts (which I'm happy with in this case); and (3) pilot Oliver was detached and focused and all that, but he never killed or tried to kill a good guy, even when doing so would have benefited his mission, so he wasn't THAT dark to begin with.

 

I've thought about it, and I think the worst things he's done were torturing that scientist guy in HK who turned out to have been drugged and was, I believe, innocent; and arrowing the Dollmaker's lawyer, and the storage place guy in the Flarrow crossover.  

Edited November 17, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[quarks]

So I finally realized what's been off for me for the flashbacks for the past two seasons. No, not the fact that they don't make any sense. I was all about the flashbacks that claimed that the Japanese were creating supersoldiers on some not really all that deserted island and that everyone had to go and blow up a submarine in order to stop bad things. And I was even all about the attempt to destroy the Chinese economy. Think big, evil dudes. Think big.

 

No, my problem is the way the characters in the flashbacks are reacting to Oliver, or, in some ways, not reacting.

 

In the first two seasons, everyone in the flashbacks - potential allies and enemies -  treated Oliver as what he was - a liability. And often an irritating liability. Even after Shado and Slade trained him, somewhat, everyone still had very good reasons not to trust Oliver's decision making, people judgement, or fighting skills - and reacted accordingly. 

 

Since then, a grand total of one character, Tatsu, has responded appropriately to Oliver. Everyone else is treating him as if they know he's the protagonist of the show, and giving him special treatment because of that. That was bad enough last season, what with Amanda Waller and General Shrieve both treating Oliver as "Hey, this guy is going to be the Green Arrow! Let's put him on special missions!"  But this season it's really not making any sense that so far, the only people to treat Oliver with skepticism have been the two guys who kicked Oliver off the plane and the bearded drug guy - and even the bearded drug guy has been way too restrained. He doesn't trust Oliver - with reason. Ok then! This is an evil island filled with land mines, so why not try to put Oliver on one?  (Bonus - that would actually add some tension the flashbacks.) No, instead he continues to allow Oliver to walk around with a gun and just gripes about it.

 

And although it's one thing, I guess, to have Evil Island Guy trust Oliver because a bunch of sticks said, "Pay no attention to the extraordinary coincidence that a billionaire kid just happened to wash up on the same island where we're trying to grow drugs, and pay no attention to the fact that we were on this island for months before we found him, which seems odd, sure, but we're sticks, so listen to us!" It's another thing to have Constantine and Poppy also trust Oliver.  All Constantine knows is that Oliver has a gun and has argued with some of the bad guys, and yet, he just goes along with Oliver to the Magical Hatch of Magical Artifacts?  All Poppy knows is that Oliver didn't kill her and he knows where a cave is. 

 

And look, Oliver's just not that trustworthy. And also, Oliver should be wondering why anyone is trusting him - he did in the first couple of seasons. The reactions just feel all off, magic sticks or no magic sticks. Hopefully this can get corrected soon, since we're still due for another year and a half of flashbacks.

[tv echo]

Here's the thing about Oliver being subdued by Liza Warner that bothered me.  Oliver is physically stronger than Liza.  Oliver could've reached up, grabbed her wrists or arms, forcibly wrenched them apart and away from his neck, and then flipped her forward over his head in one smooth move.

Edited November 30, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

Wasn't the whole reason why he didn't fight back because he couldn't? She caught him off guard by putting a knife in his back, and threatened to paralyze him IIRC. I'd make minimal movements too, haha.

[tv echo]

You're right - I had to watch the scene again (but Oliver still showed a surprising lack of situational awareness)...

 

[DeadZeus]

Roy and Sara were perfect sidekicks in season 2 and 3... They had their badass scenes, also really unique scenes. But never stole the spotlight for so long and Oliver always seemed more skilled. Currently Team Arrow has way to much spotlight and they are not even badass like Roy or Sara, the fightscenes are extremely generic. I really hope this whole Oliver = weakling ordeal will be over soon :(

[Password]

Can I just put this question out there?

How does Oliver learn? I mean he's made great strides in not shutting people out, apologizing when he's wrong, ADMITTING when he's wrong. But this secrets thing is just something he can't kick.

What do you think it'll take before his go-to reaction is "secret? No I'll tell the truth"?

This is a pre-island problem which was worsened on the island. Seriously, what?

Edited December 3, 2015 by Password

[AyChihuahua]

Can I just put this question out there?

How does Oliver learn? I mean he's made great strides in not shutting people out, apologizing when he's wrong, ADMITTING when he's wrong. But this secrets thing is just something he can't kick.

What do you think it'll take before his go-to reaction is "secret? No I'll tell the truth"?

This is a pre-island problem which was worsened on the island. Seriously, what?

I mean, secrets got his mother killed, are the reason Thea went off with Malcolm which resulted in her being mindraped and Sara being killed, arguably helped get Tommy killed, got his whole team nearly killed.  I don't think I believe anything will truly teach him this lesson.  I mean yeah, he's going to be super bummed when Felicity dumps him, but why should she, or I, believe that he's changed that time?  Plus that is sure a lot of pressure to put on her to re-engage in a relationship with him and best the test dummy, AGAIN.

[Password]

It really makes me want him to see a psychiatrist. A professional to help him when his thoughts immediately go to keeping secrets or switching to protection mode. Because this is a massive issue.

[bijoux]

It really makes me want him to see a psychiatrist. A professional to help him when his thoughts immediately go to keeping secrets or switching to protection mode. Because this is a massive issue.

I nominate the lady whose office he broke into in season 1. I liked her.

[Carrie Ann]

From the Bitterness thread:

 

I'm bitter because they managed to make me lose empathy for OQ for the first time in 4 yrs. Between the writers & SA cuddle face, in a few seconds they managed to make me find a hate for the character that I didn't think was possible. I freaking even defended him throughout all of his s3 antics and then they deliver me this crap? I'm frankly pissed.

 

I agree with you @Calliope1975, I don't know what to do with my feelings regarding OQ's characterization. I usually do not stick around for shows where I lose empathy for the main character. I'm hoping they will fix it in 409, but I know they won't. It's not even that he lied to FS. It's that he lied for BabyMama's stupid restrictions and then looked so happy to be out of the clear. It wasn't even a life or death circumstance. And what had BabayMama done in that episode to earn OQ's undying loyalty to a lie at the cost of his relationships? He could have told FS that he is still keeping something from her and that when he works it out, he'll let her know. Explain that its not that he doesn't trust her or want her as a partner - it's just this situation is out of his control (which it is to a certain degree if you listen to BM's ultimatums as absolutes). I prefer honesty in relationships, but sometimes lies or lies by omission are needed. But no one should be that relieved that they cuddle up someone's chest and appear as if nothing bad is happening. Guilt, remorse, hesitation cross people's face. I've kept secrets from loved ones and I can't think of one time I was ever that relieved in their presence. Heck, when I'm stressed I've been known to unwillingly/unconsciously smile. It's a nervous tick. That is not what was going on in that Cuddle. That was a smile of happiness & contentment, not the emotions to be attached with a lie of this magnitude.

 

And that is why I am so mad at what they did to OQ. OQ makes mistakes, but he is never cheerful or gleeful afterwards. It was such a callback to the douche he was as Ollie, it was alarming. However, even Ollie I could excuse as a result of bad parenting & other stuff. Not the case with s4 OQ, he has had 3+ years post-island & 5 years of HELL to understand that secret & lies carry consequences. He should know better than to make that facial expression. He should also know better than to lie, but it was more his reaction to getting away with it that bothered me the most.

 

In the end it really is the happy cuddling that's the worst of it. Oliver lying in and of itself certainly wouldn't be good but it could be understandable since he's had a lot happen and unhappen to him in a day or two. All it needed was a different reaction during the cuddle. It could have even started with a smile but then switched to conflicted or sad. Does someone here send asks to SA either via Twitter or Facebook? I really would like to know why he chose to play the scene that way.

 

First, I saw someone on Tumblr say that the lighting on SA's face may actually be part of the problem, and I agree. That's such a weird thing to say, but I think the angle of his face and the light/shadows on it may make him look a little more serene/content than he was actually trying to convey. It kind of looks like a grimace or a "close your eyes to stop thinking" type of face depending on your brightness levels.

 

But even if that's not the case, it doesn't change my interpretation of the scene, which is that Oliver looks completely relieved to be in Felicity's arms because he is. Because that is his dominant, overwhelming emotion at that moment. That doesn't mean he's not at all conflicted, and I would definitely have preferred to see something like that. But on the other hand, while I watched the scene, I was so thrown by that reaction that my immediate interpretation was, "Whoa, okay, he was REALLY fucked up by the thought of her breaking up with him." So fucked up that he would make such a stupid, desperate mistake. Fucked up on a level above the typical human response.

 

That line, "It's over, and I'm back, in Star City, with you." The clinging hug, the closed-eyed, clear, deep, intense relief in his face. The way he looked panicked and sickened at every point earlier in the episode where losing her crossed his mind: the first scene with Samantha, the non-breakup, the scene where Barry told him, the "She is nice. She's the best," line, which was my favorite delivery of his in the whole episode. They all add up to tell me that the thought of losing her is horrifying and unbearable to him, on a deep, lizard-brain level. I think his PTSD is in play; I think his fear of what he becomes without her is in play. I think he has finally let himself be vulnerable to a thing having power over him--his love for her and their life and hopes for a future together--and he is bone-deep terrified at the thought of it slipping away.

 

So when he's back in SC, and she's so firmly with him--and especially if you believe the interpretation that he doesn't think he's ever going to be allowed to really be William's father (Samantha saying he can "never" tell anyone else, just Mommy's friend, etc.)--he's just overwhelmingly relieved to have dodged the scariest bullet of his life, and probably willfully blind to the obvious risk that Felicity will find out some other day.

 

SA is about the only performer on the show whose interpretations of the script almost always make sense to me, so when I watched that end scene, it immediately told me something I wasn't told by the script. To be clear: I still don't accept this as a valid reason for him not to tell Felicity, and I don't think it's the definitive interpretation. But it is mine, and it means I can continue to understand Oliver, even while I reject this choice and this path they've chosen for him.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Carrie Ann