The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[TheGreenKnight]

I don't know. Maleficent seems the most lethal. There's always a chance for her to turn into a dragon and level main street...

Yeah, I'm actually expecting Maleficent to die for sure. She's the most threatening of the three power-wise, so the main cast will make the goal of wiping her out their priority. Cruella will probably be taken out first. I'm imagining (and hoping) Ursula will be the last one standing, sleeking under the radar while the other two get themselves killed. Her character was always about outsmarting others to end up on top, it would make the most sense.

[Delphi]

Instead of Ursula I think they should have introduced Triton as a villain. Originally IN the little mermaid he was supposed to hate humans because they led to his wife's death, with Ursula actually being involved abd that's why she was banished. That could have been interesting. A parallel to Regina blaming Snow for Daniels death. He could also want vengeance on all the humans.

[Camera One]

He was planning on conquest

 

I know that's what the Snow Queen said, but it didn't make much sense to me.  I can see him with that tendency, in terms of magical conquests (becoming more and more powerful), but I wasn't convinced based on what they showed us.

 

PTSD? Get real, writers. Pre-Zelena Rumple is no different from Post-Zelena Rumple. They're both bloodthirsty power maniacs.

 

 

Agreed.  Writers... if that's what you are aiming for, then maybe show us instead of tell us, after the fact.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I know that's what the Snow Queen said, but it didn't make much sense to me.  I can see him with that tendency, in terms of magical conquests (becoming more and more powerful), but I wasn't convinced based on what they showed us.

Well, I believe he was planning on doing what he did in EF. He didn't want to rule everything, but he wanted to have power over everything... which means he'd go back to killing whoever didn't hold up their end of the bargain. It would be Dark One: The Sequel. 

 

This quote confirmed to me he was prepared to bare harm in one form or another:

 

Rumple: “When I step over that town line with my magic intact, Emma and Storybrooke have nothing to fear from me. As long as they don’t get in my way. But I can’t make that same promise for the rest of the world.”

Edited December 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I guess I was most unconvinced by what he would even want with the rest of the World Without Magic.  I can see him trying to amass more and more power, maybe collecting magical powers that he doesn't have (I'm getting bad flashbacks of "Heroes" now).  But I think he would be disinterested in ruling the peons of society.

[Mathius]

I guess I was most unconvinced by what he would even want with the rest of the World Without Magic.  I can see him trying to amass more and more power, maybe collecting magical powers that he doesn't have (I'm getting bad flashbacks of "Heroes" now).  But I think he would be disinterested in ruling the peons of society.

You kidding? Rumple loves holding power over peons and screwing around with them. KingOfHearts is right, he wanted to replicate his role in the EF in the Land Without Magic, because he doesn't like being confined to Storybrooke but he doesn't want to leave unless he can take his magic power with him, which the hat would have been able to do.

[Camera One]

I don't see him caring about ordinary people if they are not an advantage to him.  He seems to like messing with people if they have something he wants from them.  And usually from what we have seen, what he wants is a magical object (eg. getting an advantageous bargaining position over King George to have access to the fairy godmother's wand).  What would he want from people who didn't have magic, if he has the magic to build himself a house, to make his life comfortable, etc.?  

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't see him caring about ordinary people if they are not an advantage to him

This is true, but I wonder if Rumple intended just to live happily with Belle, just using magic when convenient. Rumple is still quite a sadist though, and torturing others who get in his way would be all in good fun for him. What I mean by him replicating his role in EF is that everyone would be afraid of him and he could get whatever he wanted through his dark means.

[KAOS Agent]

It seems to me that using magic to have power in the Medieval Enchanted Forest would be effective. However, this world is not stuck with such poor technology or weaponry. The world would not stand for a man like Rumpel as a petty tyrant. Good luck dodging snipers and drones, Rumpel. He tries to rule the world or even take over a small part of it and he'll go down. It doesn't even make any sense. Rumpel isn't that stupid. Not to mention that Belle would not approve of any of it.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It doesn't even make any sense. Rumpel isn't that stupid.

 

It's a very, very lame plot line, I agree. Rumple would be more likely to try to send everyone back to EF or try and resurrect Neal. (I still want to see Dark Undead Neal! It would totally backfire on Rumple.)

Edited December 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

It seems to me that using magic to have power in the Medieval Enchanted Forest would be effective. However, this world is not stuck with such poor technology or weaponry. The world would not stand for a man like Rumpel as a petty tyrant. Good luck dodging snipers and drones, Rumpel. He tries to rule the world or even take over a small part of it and he'll go down. It doesn't even make any sense. Rumpel isn't that stupid. Not to mention that Belle would not approve of any of it.

Agree. It makes no sense. He would be stuck as one of those purveyors of alternative medicine for people who go for such things. Would he be powerful enough to escape modern weaponry and surveillance if he threatens world leaders? How unlimited would his powers be?

Edited December 22, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Faemonic]

I kept being boggled by what Rumple's motivation could be now that Nealfire's dead, but I realize that clinging to magic power has been consistent with Rumple's character.

 

- Rumple wanting Dark One powers to protect Kid Bae. Fine.

- Rumple wanting to keep Dark One powers because he'd gotten used to a certain standard of living. Fine, he admits that was a mistake. Or maybe he was just saying later that it was a mistake, when what he really objected to were the unwanted but not-exactly-contrived consequences of his decisions.

- Rumple wanting to bring magic back to Storybrooke because...oh, wait, he didn't know then that the town line wiped people's memories.

- Rumple wanting to keep doing magic because he needed to break the curse-break side-effects to find his son...is what he told Belle, but wasn't a factor in using the True Love potion to bring magic back to Storybrooke.

- Rumple getting traumatized from being Zelena's sex slave and watching helplessly as his son dies. I could get on board with that if he ever mentioned it!

 

But...what's he fighting now? Neal's dead. Zelena's dead. Hook's harmless. Regina, I don't know what's going on with her but since Cora's dead she probably won't go after Rumple any time soon. Rumple's been a magic addict since Zoso died, I guess, but something's just missing I feel in his motivation. I have low hopes that would clarify now that he's over the town line, magic-less, and can't get back to Storybrooke (but oh we all know he will find a way.)

Edited December 22, 2014 by Faemonic

[KingOfHearts]

Rumple's goals have always been very specific. Find Bae, save Henry, kill Zelena. What good is power if you've got nothing to use it for? He has always used to reach a certain objective. Yes he's a sadist who just loves power and abusing people, but he's also very calculated. Nothing he does is without a thought-out reason. Bae was his reason for living, and when he pseudo-died in 2x22 Rumple was suicidal. Now Neal dies in 3x15, and he's cool with it. 

 

In a way, it's like Regina. "Bae is my happy ending!" then "Power is my happy ending!" I wouldn't even count Belle. Bae may be dead but I know Rumple would at least look into Zelena's offer to time travel to get him back.

Edited December 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

Yeah, I'm actually expecting Maleficent to die for sure. She's the most threatening of the three power-wise, so the main cast will make the goal of wiping her out their priority. Cruella will probably be taken out first. I'm imagining (and hoping) Ursula will be the last one standing, sleeking under the radar while the other two get themselves killed. Her character was always about outsmarting others to end up on top, it would make the most sense.

That might be the case if A&E didn't despise women of color as much as Mark Goffman (of Sleepy Hollow).  Has any women of color lasted more than one episode other than Tamara?

 

 

It's a very, very lame plot line, I agree. Rumple would be more likely to try to send everyone back to EF or try and resurrect Neal. (I still want to see Dark Undead Neal! It would totally backfire on Rumple.)

"Sometimes Neals Come Back!"

[Guest]

Agree. It makes no sense. He would be stuck as one of those purveyors of alternative medicine for people who go for such things. Would he be powerful enough to escape modern weaponry and surveillance if he threatens world leaders? How unlimited would his powers be?

 

I don't think its infeasible that he'd find a route that would give him power.  I'd assumed that he'd set himself up as a corporate raider or something along those lines and eventually become the CEO of a huge conglomerate when the CEOs he did favors for couldn't meet their end of the bargain.  I see him also using his powers to contribute to campaigns and installing politicians that are beholden to him in places of power.  He didn't really try to conquer outright other kingdoms in the EF so he could rule them, but he did make deals with them, so I don't think land without magic would be any different.  Also, Rumpel's deals always make the other person culpable.  I'd assume that he'd make sure that they knew if they tried to take him out with modern weaponry that he'd make sure it was a mutually assured destruction, like on my death all the deals I made go public.

 

I think Rumpel has two motivations.  First not to be controlled by the dagger.  Second (although the show failed to convey it) to be assured that no one in the vicinity had power equal to or greater than him and hence the ability to control him.  Storybrooke has the Author running around in the background who made a device that could contain him.  Its possible Regina could beat Rumpel, maybe.  Its possible Emma could come into her power enough to beat him.  Emma and Regina could team up against him.  What magic user shows up in Storybrooke next?

 

As it is everyone controls him, in a way, without the dagger because he wanted Belle to think he wasn't all bad.  The Charmings keep coming to Rumpel for help with whatever villain showed up in town and Rumpel helps without making a deal because Belle and Henry are on the hero side of the equation.  It must chap his hide.  In the land with out magic, Rumpel could get away with a patronizing 'its business, it's not like we are being attacked ogres, witches, or evil fairies.'  Belle would have accepted that for a very long time.

[Camera One]

I could see him more wanting to enter other magical realms like Middle Earth or Narnia to get even more powerful in his magic.  He would still have magic in the World Without Magic, so he could easily use various magical objects to neutralize any human weaponry aimed at him.  I'm surprised he didn't pack up all the useful objects he might need, including the gauntlet.

[Shanna Marie]

- Rumple wanting to bring magic back to Storybrooke because...oh, wait, he didn't know then that the town line wiped people's memories.

- Rumple wanting to keep doing magic because he needed to break the curse-break side-effects to find his son...is what he told Belle, but wasn't a factor in using the True Love potion to bring magic back to Storybrooke.

I think the potion just comes back to the fact that he wants to have it all, which has been his problem all along. He supposedly became the Dark One to save Bae from being sent to war, then was stuck that way unless someone killed him, so that wasn't an option. Then Bae found another way, that he could go to a World Without Magic and be himself again. But Rumple chickened out on that because the truth was that he didn't want to be himself again. He regretted letting his son go, but he still didn't want to let go of his power. We've since seen other ways he might have been able to go -- like the Sorcerer's door -- but those would have involved him losing his power once he was in the World Without Magic. The combo of the Dark Curse and the True Love potion were his way of getting to the World Without Magic and still being able to keep his power, though the town line proved to be something of a surprise, first with the memory issue and second with the power loss. The latest scheme seemed to be about removing that limitation from himself, so he could go wherever he wanted and never lose his power.

[TheGreenKnight]

That might be the case if A&E didn't despise women of color as much as Mark Goffman (of Sleepy Hollow).  Has any women of color lasted more than one episode other than Tamara?

The only non-white characters I can think of off-hand are Tamara, Mulan, Sydney Glass, Lancelot, and Rapunzel. Three women in all. I'm not sure if they despise women of color? Maybe they have the bias typical of many writers in that they unconsciously envision most of their characters as the same race they are.

 

EDIT: Oh, wait, I forgot about Maid Marian and the Dragon, even if they weren't very important.

Edited December 22, 2014 by TheGreenKnight

[Faemonic]

He regretted letting his son go, but he still didn't want to let go of his power. We've since seen other ways he might have been able to go -- like the Sorcerer's door -- but those would have involved him losing his power once he was in the World Without Magic.

 

The latest scheme seemed to be about removing that limitation from himself, so he could go wherever he wanted and never lose his power.

I don't know anymore if we're supposed to believe that Rumple didn't know about the door and would or wouldn't have used it. He still lopped Killian's hand off to get a magic bean that was supposed to bring him to Baelfire in the Land Without Magic and therefore wouldn't have had magic, and supposedly only thought up of The Dark Curse because the Blue Fairy said that there were no more magic beans. And the Seer confirmed that The Dark Curse was the only way for him.

 

Also, something else bugs me about that door that I've taken to the relationships thread.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Faemonic

[jhlipton]

The only non-white characters I can think of off-hand are Tamara, Mulan, Sydney Glass, Lancelot, and Rapunzel. Three women in all. I'm not sure if they despise women of color? Maybe they have the bias typical of many writers in that they unconsciously envision most of their characters as the same race they are.

 

EDIT: Oh, wait, I forgot about Maid Marian and the Dragon, even if they weren't very important.

 

You forgot Cinderella's fairy, but that's understandable considering how little time she was on-screen before she was murdered.

 

Maybe I was being a bit harsh but they are most certainly not equal opportunity employers!

[kitticup]

I've been wondering how a Rumple would react to a very desperate peasant who is shunned by his village for his cowardice came to him (rumple) for help to save his son from an illness or simething? Would he identify with the peasant? If so would he show compassion and charge nothing? Would he project his own self- loathing onto the man and deny him help with insulting him? I wonder.

I think Rumple would be troubled but still demand a price.

ETA: Lana is a woman of color. She is Latina.

Edited December 28, 2014 by kitticup

[KingOfHearts]

I think if the son reminded him of Bae he would show a little hidden sympathy. I don't think he'd give a flip about the dad though.

We have Ursula now as a woman of color.

Edited December 28, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

I've been wondering how a Rumple would react to a very desperate peasant who is shunned by his village for his cowardice came to him (rumple) for help to save his son from an illness or simething?

 

I don't think Rumple would give a rat's ass.  Rumple pre-Dark One might have.  Rumple full on power would not.  Whatever compassion and sense of decency died when he became the Dark One.  Rumple becoming the Dark One might have started from a sort of "good" place in the sense that he wanted to save his son badly because he just really loved him and he was all he had at the end of the day.  I don't think he would have lifted a finger to help that hypothetical villager because he would have reminded Rumple of himself.  

 

With all his powers, Rumple is still a big ol' coward who hides behind his powerful magic.  It's interesting that before 411, Hook was the only one who had seen him as such and now Belle got a glimpse into that as well (Milah and Neal are both dead).  Everyone else, from Cora to Regina (I don't remember what it is she saw in Neverland when she got rid of Shadow!Belle) to the Charmings has seen him as this powerful, cruel dark sorcerer. 

 

I think if the son reminded him of Bae he would show a little hidden sympathy. I don't think he'd give a flip about the dad though.

Probably after making a deal with the dad or some nonsense like that.  Rumple gives no fucks about anyone who isn't him or Bae.  I don't include Belle in this because I'm pretty convinced he never loved her enough to make any type of sacrifice for her (and that gauntlet doesn't count).

Edited December 28, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Delphi]

I disagree, and not just because I'm a Rumbeller, I think in the first two seasons it was pretty clear that Rumple loved Belle. Especially in the fairy backs and season two Storybrooke. I've been rewatching after the finale to cope. I think honestly the writing has just gotten so shoddy that they can't make that clear.

Would he ever give up power for her? No, but that's been well established that he wouldn't. But I think the Lacey episode does give a good example of the love there. The Outsider as well.

It's just that loving Belle isn't enough to stop him from being a horrible person, she is just able to keep him in check. Something her presence was capable of well before she got the 'dagger'. The writing of this season has just been more about plot than characters so honestly Rumple has become a plot device.

Even last season's finale. They needed the time portal to open, and they could have found another way, but the easiest way was having Rumple kill Zelena and release the magic.

This season Rumple starts off right and almost immediately back slides because the writers need to advance the plot. They need to add drama for hook. It's almost like he wasn't really a character again until the finale, which is just a waste of Robert's abilities. But that's for another thread.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Delphi

[ShadowFacts]

I'm not sure if Rumpel loves Belle, but I tend to think not really.  It's the writing of course, but it seems kind of deliberate.  He described her earlier this season as the light in his life, not the love of his life.  He certainly does not respect her.  He does hold her in higher regard than anybody besides Bae, but if it is love, certainly not the kind that takes into account wanting what is best for the other person and acting accordingly.

[Amerilla]

I disagree, and not just because I'm a Rumbeller, I think in the first two seasons it was pretty clear that Rumple loved Belle. Especially in the fairy backs and season two Storybrooke. I've been rewatching after the finale to cope. I think honestly the writing has just gotten so shoddy that they can't make that clear.

 

100% in agreement with you on all this, Delphi.

 

I've never doubted that Rumpel loves Belle as much as he is capable, and that his limits are established by both the Dark One curse and the carried-over fears from his pre-Dark One personality. And until it became necessary to the plot for her to be otherwise, Belle was aware of those limitations and worked within them to encourage him to overcome that.

 

The real-world analog would be someone suffering from mental illness (the influence of the DO curse) and self-medicated with drugs (the desire magic/power). It would be enough drama just for the two of them to cope with that over the long haul.

 

Instead they are constantly separated by worlds and deaths and amnesia and curses and "cleaving" and banishments - and oh! what fun you CS folks are going to have when A&E really fully engage their  mitts on Hook and Emma!! The heart-stuffing in front of the diner bathroom is just the beginning.

 

The writing of this season has just been more about plot than characters so honestly Rumple has become a plot device.

 

That's the crux of it. No matter how much Robert may enjoy it, no matter how skilled he may be at it, him being evil and dour simply to push the plot forward is not all that interesting over the long haul.

[Dani-Ellie]

Put me in the camp of "Rumple doesn't really give a crap about anyone who isn't him and Bae." And honestly, for me, Bae's only sort of in that camp, because how many times have we seen Rumple completely ignore Bae's wishes in favor of his own? Every single flashback we've been shown is Bae begging his father to stop hurting people, to stop killing people, to let go of the power, to "come with me and start over."

 

I do think Rumple loves (loved?) Belle as much as he is able, but therein lies the problem. He's not able to love all that much. Whatever his reasoning, his love, first and foremost, is his power. It's why he dropped Bae into the portal (I recently did a rewatch of "The Return" ... Bae didn't just slip from his grip, he most definitely let Bae go). It's why he lied to Belle. It's why he wanted (and attempted!) to kill Henry. It's why he screwed over pretty much everybody this season. Everyone was either a threat to his power or standing in the way of his accumulating more.

 

I personally think Rumple and Belle being together was dragging them both down. Belle had to be either oblivious or enabling, and Rumple had a leash that, as far as I can tell, he grew to resent. I hated that he was lying to her. And it wasn't even a lie by omission; he offered her something under the guise of "look how much I trust you!" and it wasn't real, so what, he didn't trust her? And then he went and made that deceit the symbol of their engagement. That's so damn underhanded and, quite frankly, disgusting to me. And I get it, he's a villain, he's going to do underhanded, disgusting things. But don't try to sell me that as an epic fairy-tale True Love story.

 

I cheered when Belle commanded him over the town line. Rumple wants to have his cake and eat it, too, and he finally found out that he couldn't. It provided me a nice bit of comeuppance for him and a healthy dose of self-respect for Belle. Because she should want to be chosen, and she shouldn't have to be second to her husband's thirst for power.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Amerilla]

I liked that scene because Robert and Emilie knocked it out of the park, but at the end of the day, it all comes back to crappy writing.

 

There were any number of ways the writers could have approached Rumpel's story in 4a that linked in to his character's emotional backstory and into the Rumbelle relationship.

 

At the very least, they could have drawn a distinct parallel between his marriage to Belle and his marriage to Milah.

 

With Milah, he was too scared to leave the safe confines of their village to face the unknown, even though that's what she so clearly wanted.

 

In 4a, his goal is to be able to leave Storybrooke with his power, but they didn't really drive home the idea that the motivation behind that was, in part, so he could show Belle the world - something the story has established several times over the years Belle would want to do - without the fear that held him back the first time.

 

That would have underscored a lot of ongoing themes: that he hasn't faced any of his old fears, that he's still  man who makes "wrong choices," that even after all it's cost him, magic remains an addiction.

 

And if they had built an actual relationship with Henry, rather than deflecting it into Operation Moron-goose, you'd have set him up to be planning on leaving with his wife and Bae's son, and it becomes a story about emotion - one that could still have ended up in exactly the same place, but actually have meant something to the characters involved.

 

Instead it was like: "Mwah-ha-ha, I will cleave myself from this dagger the moment the stars align and flee this lasagne-obsessed rathole...oh, yeah, and I'll take Belle and the kid with me, I guess."

 

The whole story was devoid of passion, thus devoid of meaning. It's tragic. They can keep "villains" villainous, but who wants to watch a bunch of paper cut-outs act out a paper-thin story?

[Camera One]

Exactly.  They got a kick out of writing Rumple as a full-out villain again, and the writers even got praise for doing this from some reviewers.  The Zelena prisoner debacle was the perfect vehicle to explain why Rumple might have been tempted because he was just so afraid of being controlled like that again.  It seems like the writers knew this could be justification but they threw that out there AFTER eleven episodes as if that retroactively can explain everything.  As usual, it's all tell and no show.  Does he care about Henry?  Is he trying to tell himself that after he cleaves himself from the dagger, that's it?  The writers write Rumple supposedly aiming for world domination in one breath, and then in another, they insist that Rumple could still become the man he promised to be at Neal's gravestone.  It's all mixed signals, so the writers can go whatever direction they want to, and claim there's foundation for it.  

[Amerilla]

I wonder how much of this the writers planned out ahead of time?

 

Someone was pointing out on Tumblr just now that at SDCC in July, there was a lot of emphasis on the fact the marriage was true and meaningful to Rumple but that Rumpel and Belle were going to face a lot of push-pull stemming from Rumpel's stuggle to stay on the straight and narrow, and even Robert seemed to be emphasizing "character" stuff, both with Belle and Henry.

 

That shifted at New York CC in October, where A&E were highlighting Rumpel's fundamental selfishness and how addiction to power drove him more than love. It was also around then that Robert started emphasizing magic addiction in his interviews and downplaying his relationship with Belle in ways he really hasn't before.

 

Maybe that's the over-simplification of bitter Rumbellers, but I think it's basically true on the facts - I remember being quite enthused at the stuff that was coming out of SDCC - and it certainly feels from what we saw on-screen like the more they got into the writing for 4a, the less interested the were in coming up with any proper motivation for Rumpel or storyline for Belle..

[Faemonic]

A few pages back, I expressed how flabbergasted I was that Rumple would take such a sudden interest in Henry. Even with the deleted scene in White Out that doesn't count because it's a deleted scene, and Henry's single solitary line about Rumple being Henry's only connection to Neal Sr...it didn't make sense.

 

Then all of a sudden Rumple's being so considerate of Regina, like, d'aww, the best villain pep talk he could muster up, wishing Regina the best for her own happy ending...oh, and letting her have her son back. Regina didn't ever get to face Rumple down for trying to kidnap Henry. And when did Rumple even decide that he didn't want Henry along after all? Did Hook tell Rumple about the marbles and Rumple just hates marbles?

[Mari]

I wonder how much of this the writers planned out ahead of time?

 

Someone was pointing out on Tumblr just now that at SDCC in July, there was a lot of emphasis on the fact the marriage was true and meaningful to Rumple but that Rumpel and Belle were going to face a lot of push-pull stemming from Rumpel's stuggle to stay on the straight and narrow, and even Robert seemed to be emphasizing "character" stuff, both with Belle and Henry.

Was it the SDCC that had the interviews where they were asked about abuse/control issues with Rumple/Belle?  I remember there being surprise from Carlyle, de Ravin, and from A&E that people even questioned that Rumple loved Belle, and true shock that some saw it as at least a borderline abusive relationship, but I can't say I remember for sure if it the SDCC interviews were the ones.

 

They might have made some changes to the story based on what they were hearing, and, well, done as brilliant a job as they've done on several other completely nonshiny things.

[Rumsy4]

And when did Rumple even decide that he didn't want Henry along after all? Did Hook tell Rumple about the marbles and Rumple just hates marbles?

 

He was planning to take Henry when he thought the Shattered Sight spell was going to finish off everyone in Storybrooke except for Ingrid, Emma, and Elsa. So, he was planning on leaving town with Belle and Henry.

 

Was it the SDCC that had the interviews where they were asked about abuse/control issues with Rumple/Belle?  I remember there being surprise from Carlyle, de Ravin, and from A&E that people even questioned that Rumple loved Belle, and true shock that some saw it as at least a borderline abusive relationship, but I can't say I remember for sure if it the SDCC interviews were the ones.

 

They might have made some changes to the story based on what they were hearing, and, well, done as brilliant a job as they've done on several other completely nonshiny things.

 

Yes. That was also the time de Ravin said that Belle was very forgiving. So, maybe the actors didn't know where the arc was headed by the end of the half-season. I don't think A&E would have changed the direction of that arc completely to the point where Belle and Rumple weren't supposed to split up. Unless they came up with the idea for the Queens of Darkness mid-way through the season. Who knows.

[Faemonic]

He was planning to take Henry when he thought the Shattered Sight spell was going to finish off everyone in Storybrooke except for Ingrid, Emma, and Elsa. So, he was planning on leaving town with Belle and Henry.

Why would Rumple bother with Henry at all if he wasn't going to bother with Henry, though? I mean, okay, death by mobs or freezing to death is rather harsh for a 13-year-old boy and Rumple thought that Henry would be fine with his moms now that Shattered Sight wasn't an issue. That makes sense in my head, but I guess having shown that and explored that enough to make any emotional sense would be too much to ask. (I had Zelena PTSD as Rumple's motivator for a while in my head, but that wasn't what I was seeing and one throwaway line in Regina's car doesn't make it real.)

Edited December 30, 2014 by Faemonic

[Mari]

That was also the time de Ravin said that Belle was very forgiving. So, maybe the actors didn't know where the arc was headed by the end of the half-season. I don't think A&E would have changed the direction of that arc completely to the point where Belle and Rumple weren't supposed to split up.

It wouldn't be the first time that the actors for the show have a different idea about what's going to happen than what actually did, so it's possible they didn't know what was really planned.

 

However, Amerilla pointed out once that splitting Belle and Rumple up every half season is pretty typical of the show--I don't doubt that they were planning on Rumple and Belle being separated for one reason or another. I'm just not sure that their original plan involved Belle banishing him, with an impassioned speech about how he didn't love her.

 

The original plan could easily have been more along the lines of Ingrid banished him, and he needed to quest his way back, for example.  I guess it just wouldn't surprise me if the SDCC questions panicked them and they made changes to "empower" Belle at the last minute.

[Camera One]

They had already set up the fake Dagger at the end of 3B, so they couldn't drag Belle NOT finding out for more than a half-season.  Why not have Belle find out that Rumple had killed Zelena too?  I suppose it's been so long since Rumple killed Zelena that it is practically a moot point now?  So is it just going to be swept under the rug like the Graham murder?  Why are there so many unnecessary loose ends?  

Edited December 29, 2014 by Camera One

[Mari]

They had already set up the fake Dagger at the end of 3B, so they couldn't drag Belle NOT finding out for more than a half-season.  Why not have Belle find out that Rumple had killed Zelena too?  I suppose it's been so long since Rumple killed Zelena that it is practically a moot point now?  So is it just going to be swept under the rug like the Graham murder?  Why are there so many unnecessary loose ends?  

From what I've seen so far on the show, Rumple killing Zelena is not something that matters to them;  Zelena was their temporary villain--what does her death matter?  She's not going to be on the show again, and we already knew that Rumple wasn't always a nice person.  Plus, Rumple was all traumatized and stuff, so Zelena why would anyone be upset by that one little murder?

 

It should, because the show would be more interesting if they allowed actual, reasonable follow-up and follow through.

[Camera One]

I just remembered there was a precedent.  Neal never found out Rumple murdered Tamara, and we know they're not going back for that one.

[KAOS Agent]

No one ever found out that Regina had murdered Greg/Owen's father, Kurt, either. It's just more whitewashing of the "reforming" villains. If it's never addressed and no one knows about it, then it's all cool when decent people express wanting to be friends with her. 

[KingOfHearts]

Don't forget Rumple turning Gaston into a rose... that was pretty much murder. Wouldn't it be awesome if Belle somehow found out about it and revived him? No one seems to give a flying flip about Lumiere or Gepetto's parents, either.

Edited December 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Just commenting on this discussion from Spoiler thread (no spoilers are included):

Not that they're going to kill Rumple anytime soon. He's going to skate because they won't get rid of him and they won't permanently change him.

 

That's the problem with keeping Big Bads alive for too long.  It gets so tiresome to have them continue as a threat because you already know they are not going to die.  We know Rumple will return to Storybrooke (and we even found out 6 weeks later, he was already back on track).  We know he will succeed in causing havoc either himself, or through the Queens of Darkness he is in league with.  We know he will worm his way back, and our "heroes" will eventually work with him again (and probably crawling to him for help).  It just becomes so predictable.

 

To avoid that, there are really only two choices.  Write them off the show in defeat (eg. killing them off, trapping them in Pandora Box #815), or redeem them. In a progressive, logical way, not in a yin-yang, ping-pong kind of way where every 13 episodes, they alternate between hero and villain. 

 

Ironically, Storybrooke Gold was arguably the one type of villain you *could* keep around because he was selfish but usually did not go out of his way to harm others.  But that went out the window in 4A, and I think that was one of the biggest mistakes in this half season.  They went too far with his character to go back to the way things were.

 

So if they want us to take their plotline seriously, they simply cannot have Belle forgive Rumple at the end of 4B, or give him yet another grand sacrifice.  If so, they will have destroyed Rumple like they did Regina.  

Edited December 30, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

That's the problem with keeping Big Bads alive for too long.  It gets so tiresome to have them continue as a threat because you already know they are not going to die.  We know Rumple will return to Storybrooke (and we even found out 6 weeks later, he was already back on track).  We know he will succeed in causing havoc either himself, or through the Queens of Darkness he is in league with.  We know he will worm his way back, and our "heroes" will eventually work with him again (and probably crawling to him for help).  It just becomes so predictable.

 

I believe this was a big turnoff to viewers in S2. They saw all the crap Regina put everyone under in the first season, then she got none of the comeuppance everyone expected her to get after the season premiere. She followed the Big Bad formula to a fault in S1, with no reason to sympathize or believe she could redeem herself. S2 comes along and totally changes her character's DNA with very little reason, throwing the whole audience off. Then there's the Woegina Movement in 2B, and that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

I suppose it would have worked if the angry mobs forced her into hiding instead of that murder framing. The peasants should have raided her house, took from her vault what she stole, then vowed to kill her on sight. Then, after several weeks of realizing the pain she had caused, maybe the show could get me to cheer her redemption arc on. After having a heartfelt, deep apology to the Charmings, Emma, and Henry, she could start turning her life around and eventually try to be a good person to everyone else.

 

Realistically, Rumple should have died at the end of 3A. That really was a decent ending for him... but since he's a main character, he's easily resurrected and brought back two episodes later. It really diminishes the weight of his sacrifice.

Edited December 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[The Cake is a Pie]

I still wish they had resurrected Rumple as a powerless human. Think of all the potential human drama they could have milked, to give him the chance to live in SB as just Mr. Gold, rebuild a relationship with Neal, reconnect with Belle, start to form normal relationships with Henry and the others, then have Zelena blow in and force the Dark One powers back upon him and see the conflict that would have created. 

[regularlyleaded]

I believe this was a big turnoff to viewers in S2. They saw all the crap Regina put everyone under in the first season, then she got none of the comeuppance everyone expected her to get after the season premiere. She followed the Big Bad formula to a fault in S1, with no reason to sympathize or believe she could redeem herself. S2 comes along and totally changes her character's DNA with very little reason, throwing the whole audience off.

Taking my reply to the Writers thread.

[Amerilla]

I still wish they had resurrected Rumple as a powerless human. Think of all the potential human drama they could have milked, to give him the chance to live in SB as just Mr. Gold, rebuild a relationship with Neal, reconnect with Belle, start to form normal relationships with Henry and the others, then have Zelena blow in and force the Dark One powers back upon him and see the conflict that would have created.

 

I wanted this so badly in 3b. I do try to keep my expectations super-low, but frankly, I was just crushed when they went the way they did. It was a really rich storyline and I think the entire cast could have run with it. Instead, they took their usual route of beating the dead horse....and then beating it again.

 

In a sense, they really did kill Rumpel as a character at the end of 3a. In the current season, they haven't made him more villainous so much as they've made him more unlikable, to the point where there's really no point in rooting for his eventual redemption, or caring whether he lives or dies. It's just watching Robert Carlyle collect a paycheck now.  

Edited December 30, 2014 by Amerilla

[KingOfHearts]

 

I wanted this so badly in 3b. I do try to keep my expectations super-low, but frankly, I was just crushed when they went the way they did. It was a really rich storyline and I think the entire cast could have run with it. Instead, they took their usual route of beating the dead horse....and then beating it again.

 

I wish he could have been nuts the whole time, like we saw at the end of Witch Hunt. Just sparkly Rumple out of his mind. That could have been some sort of byproduct of being a resurrected Dark One. Sadly, the whole "absorbing Neal" contrivance was what they went with. I really wanted Zelena to be the one to get Rumple back in a more elaborate way than a random vault. The Netherworld with the Burning Room comes to mind.

[Dani-Ellie]

Or Crazy Rumple could have been the result of Zelena forcing him to cast the Dark Curse and using Bae's heart to do it. Delicious bit of wickedness for Zelena, understandable sympathy for Rumple, same tragic ending for Neal.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know how Rumple comes back from wanting to hat Emma and having Hook do it to the fairies.  Him messing with Hook is one thing, I'm sort of okay to a certain extent with what happened.  Hook tried to blackmail him twice and it was an epic fail the second time around.  Hook and Rumple are old enemies with a lot of history between them and something was bound to give eventually.  And no, I'm not excusing Rumple taking Hook's heart and then trying to kill the man.  But the progression between the two was a somewhat normal one.   Rumple making Hook pay for blackmailing him and threatening his marriage given that the first missus left Rumple because of Hook, I can see Rumple upping the ante.  I can even understand Rumple's visceral hatred of the fairies (I think his hatred of them is on par with his hatred of Hook).  But Rumple willingly going after Emma, sacrificing her so that he could separate himself from his dagger and gain as much power as possible?

 

How does anyone who cares and loves Emma get over this?  And I really don't care whether the people can be freed from the hat or not and even if they could, I'm assuming that once he freed himself from the dagger, the people in the hat would actually die, die, die...

 

The one thing I'm just struggling with is how Rumple can live in Storybrooke, how anyone can talk to him like he's a normal person or whatever...but I guess Regina created a precedent and everyone who lives in SB is pretty much brain dead.

[Delphi]

Speaking of, or not really, whatever but whatever happened to Regina abstaining from magic to redeem herself. Sure she back slid but somewhere along her redemption (again) how does Henry not mention that she was supposed to give up magic to redeem herself?

[Faemonic]

Speaking of, or not really, whatever but whatever happened to Regina abstaining from magic to redeem herself. Sure she back slid but somewhere along her redemption (again) how does Henry not mention that she was supposed to give up magic to redeem herself?

I guess Regina would be comparable to alcohol addicts who become moderate drinkers. It doesn't always have to be cold turkey.

 

It's the addiction to power and the disposition to abuse it that's the bad thing, rather than magic itself, or else people wouldn't keep saying that magic is a part of Emma and the key to savioring so Emma should embrace it and use it all the time for everything (especially when the Big Bads have always without exception been magic-users, a lot of solutions to their problems require magicking a thing, and magickal illnesses abound.)

 

So, as long as Regina doesn't wrap Henry up in apple tree branches for getting "only" a B+ in algebra, or steal Hook's heart to use him as her sex toy, or propose to Robin Hood with a fake phylactery of her personal power that she can then use as an alibi for all the magical shadiness that she's really doing...then Archie would approve.