Whaddya in For? - The Women and Their Crimes

[joanne3482]

I thought it would be interesting to talk about the women, their crimes and possibly how their lives ended them up in Litchfield, without being specific to one episode or one character. (I hope this is okay) (If you haven't binge watched all the episodes you might be spoiled)

 

One of the things I have loved about this show is the inclusion of the backstories that don't always tell you the crime they committed that got them this specific jail sentence. It reminds me of the scenes with both Piper and Brook about how you don't ask. It also makes me wonder if there's a pattern there of who will confess (and accept responsibility) for what she did so we get the whole story vs who kind of glazes over it and continues to blame outside influences or whatever for her crime. Rosa felt guilt over the men in her life dying and she straight up admitted what her crime was. Same with Yoga. Pennsatucky doesn't really feel guilt over shooting the nurse who 'disrespected' her but she has almost pride in her crime. Taystee, on the other hand, we don't really know what specific thing she got caught at that put her in jail, but she doesn't really seem to take responsibility for her behavior. Same with Black Cindy. We know she was a TSA agent who was stealing things out of suitcases, but did her mom turn her in for the iPad or was she caught with more? At least with the theft of the iPad, she didn't seem to feel she did anything wrong. In the episode 4 thread, we've been talking about what crime got Morello thrown in jail, but we don't actually know and it seems to follow the pattern. Until the confrontation with Christopher later on, she saw nothing wrong with her actions. I don't remember if we know exactly what Red did either. And she's another one who does what she did for her family without necessarily thinking her crime was all that wrong. 

[AlinaRay]

I think the back stories are some of the most interesting parts of the series. I'm glad they're going there with the information and I'm also glad that they're leaving it somewhat open-ended or for us to determine. It seems like at lot got caught up with the wrong crowd or were in a wrong place, wrong time situation (Red, Rosa, Piper, Taystee). With some of them it's understandable, like Piper and Red thinking that what they were doing wasn't "that" bad compared to the people around them, but they weren't thinking through that they were all cogs in the wheel of a much bigger operation.

 

I also like that some of them knew full well what they were doing, and did it anyway (Vee, Sister, Black Cindy, Sophia, Gloria). All of them felt justified for what they were doing for their own reasons. Some more understandable than others, but they were still in the wrong (clearly, or they wouldn't have ended up where they are).

 

What I'm kind of waiting to see is someone who was wrongly convicted. I want someone who is really completely innocent end up in prison (on the show) due to the system, and see how they handle it and what would happen to them.

Edited June 11, 2014 by AlinaRay

[joanne3482]

This is probably just spite and I know she SAID it was political activism, but I really want Brook to actually be in there for something much more mundane. Like she said that Meadow "was" her best friend. It made me wonder if she had been drinking (or texting) and driving and gotten into an accident that got Meadow killed. Although if that's the case she would be a sociopath because she is rather upbeat. 

 

What I'm kind of waiting to see is someone who was wrongly convicted. I want someone who is really completely innocent end up in prison (on the show) due to the system, and see how they handle it and what would happen to them.

 

That would be very interesting. 

 

It seems like at lot got caught up with the wrong crowd or were in a wrong place, wrong time situation (Red, Rosa, Piper, Taystee).

 

Looking at Taystee and Daya, they almost had no chance at a legal life. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by joanne3482

[leighdear]

I still don't know the crimes for Suzanne, Norma, Big Boo and Wanda. 

 

I assumed Red's crime was getting caught with whatever those Russian mobsters stashed in her walk-in freezer. 

[CofCinci]

This is probably just spite and I know she SAID it was political activism, but I really want Brook to actually be in there for something much more mundane. Like she said that Meadow "was" her best friend. It made me wonder if she had been drinking (or texting) and driving and gotten into an accident that got Meadow killed.

She would be locked in a state facility for that crime.

[joanne3482]

She would be locked in a state facility for that crime.

 

The state vs federal crimes (on this show) are confusing to me. Pennsatucky shot a woman in an abortion clinic. Murder isn't a federal charge, yet there she is in the federal prison unless it was considered a hate crime. Are all drug offenses automatically federal offenses? Poussey dealt pot and Yoga had a pot farm and killed a kid. Based on this website they may or may not be federal. Because it is a women's prison maybe they combine both groups? 

[gwlisa]

Drug offenses are usually not federal crimes unless the circumstances qualify it - like possessing drugs on federal property or dealing on a cruise ship, etc. State prisons are filled with women convicted of drug offenses, so it is very confusing to me why some of them are there in federal custody. I wish a quick line on the show would explain. Feds don't play host to state offenders.

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

Same with Black Cindy. We know she was a TSA agent who was stealing things out of suitcases, but did her mom turn her in for the iPad or was she caught with more? At least with the theft of the iPad, she didn't seem to feel she did anything wrong.

It may well have been the iPad theft. There are apps available that will track a mobile device using its built-in GPS, and Cindy wouldn't know enough to uninstall them, given that she didn't even take the basic step of erasing the owner's pictures from it. If the iPad were tracked down in her daughter's possession, Cindy's mother (who was completely fed up with her antics) probably would have no problems telling the authorities that Cindy had given it to the girl; it wouldn't be hard to then connect its owners reporting it missing from their luggage after a flight where Cindy had access to the bag. Bottom line is that Cindy would have NO legitimate excuse for that iPad having ended up in her possession.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Sir RaiderDuck OMS

[Kara]

Was it ever specified what Miss Claudette was in for?  I was reading an old article here that said she was in prison for killing the guy that raped one of her housekeepers, but from my memory, it wasn't clear that murder was the reason she was in prison.   I thought maybe it was for human trafficking, or slave labor, since when they first showed her story, she was told that she would have to work off her debts after coming from Haiti.  It appeared that she took over for that woman, and continued forcing girls to work off their debts.  I thought maybe the murder was never pinned on her, but it led to an investigation that resulted in her conviction for forcing the girls to work.  Did I just miss something?  When she was going through her appeal, was it mentioned?  Also, I know the actress was severely injured in an accident, so I figured that was the reason that she was not in season 2, but did they ever give a reason for her character's absence?  I can't remember how season 1 ended in regards to her story.  I should go back and watch it again.

[cotterpin]

Was it ever specified what Miss Claudette was in for?  <snipped> I can't remember how season 1 ended in regards to her story.  I should go back and watch it again.

 

She pinned Fischer against a wall in the hallway and choked her after finding out her appeal was denied, and was hauled away to max security

[bluedevilblue]

Was it ever specified what Miss Claudette was in for?  I was reading an old article here that said she was in prison for killing the guy that raped one of her housekeepers, but from my memory, it wasn't clear that murder was the reason she was in prison.   I thought maybe it was for human trafficking, or slave labor, since when they first showed her story, she was told that she would have to work off her debts after coming from Haiti. 

 

I think it's very likely that Nichols - who said Miss Claudette was in for human trafficking - is right.  Murder is usually a state charge, whereas the trafficking from Haiti would be federal.

[mansonlamps]

Plus you would think she would be in max security for murder.

[ilovese4]

I thought the point about the older ladies being the scariest prisoners was well made- they're the ones who've committed the serious crimes, they've just transferred over from max for good behaviour.

[GreekGeek]

What I'm kind of waiting to see is someone who was wrongly convicted. I want someone who is really completely innocent end up in prison (on the show) due to the system, and see how they handle it and what would happen to them.

 

I'm actually glad that the show hasn't gone there yet. A lot of shows and movies about prison make characters sympathetic by having them be wrongfully convicted, or receiving a harsh punishment for a very minor offense. This show doesn't shy away from the fact that many of the women did in fact commit some serious crimes, and they all have their darker aspects. But we still care about them, root for them to be OK and become upset when they're treated badly by the prison staff. (Well, all except Vee.)

Edited July 12, 2014 by GreekGeek

[bravelittletoaster]

Ha, I noticed a Twitter conversation in my feed yesterday between Piper Kerman and a couple randos where someone was like, "Piper, please settle a bet for us.  I think Morello would be in federal for mail fraud, while my friend thinks stalking."  And Piper responded unequivocally it was the mail fraud.  Stalking would be state.  heh.

[Pimms]

Regarding the state vs federal issue -- is it possible that some of them are serving concurrent or consecutive state and federal sentences, for different crimes? According to this, whoever has primary jurisdiction (i.e. whoever first gains physical custody of the defendant) will impose the primary sentence (i.e. the first sentence served). So if you are first arrested by the feds, and they don't relinquish physical custody of you, their sentence will be served before a state-imposed sentence. 

 

A judge may order a sentence to run either consecutively or concurrently with the other jurisdiction's sentence. So someone like Morello might be in a federal institution for mail fraud; after finishing up at Litchfield, she might end up in a state facility for the stalking charge. (Didn't she tell Miss Rosa that she had "four and two" left on her sentence? Maybe that meant four more at Litchfield, then two in a state prison; then again, she may have meant 4 years and two months). It's also possible that Pennsatucky will head to a state facility for murdering that nurse, and that she's serving federal time for something else that we don't know about. 

 

If they were first arrested by the feds, it's possible that they're serving concurrent state and federal sentences at Litchfield. The document I linked points out that state DAs are often fine with shifting primary jurisdiction to the feds for a concurrent sentence, since the US foots the bill and not the state. It seems less common to serve federal time in a state prison.

 

With all this said, I can't seem to find any statistics on how common it is to serve concurrent sentences. The default federal position appears to be consecutive rather than concurrent sentences. 

 

All of this is subject to the usual disclaimer that I am not a lawyer. 

 

ETA: Just wanted to add --  there are some really unrealistic things on this show (such as Alex and Piper even being in the same prison) and I figured that if I could somehow make one of these things coherent, it'd give me more peace of mind; even if it is through super extreme fanwankery.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Pimms

[bravelittletoaster]

ETA: Just wanted to add --  there are some really unrealistic things on this show (such as Alex and Piper even being in the same prison) and I figured that if I could somehow make one of these things coherent, it'd give me more peace of mind; even if it is through super extreme fanwankery.

 

There aren't many federal pens for women though.  I think there are only 5, and they very nearly closed the one that Litchfield is based on recently--they were going to send all of those prisoners down to Alabama, something Piper publicly lobbied against since it basically means separating those women from their visitors for the duration of their sentence.  I think they stopped that.  Anyhow, point being there aren't many women's correctional facilities at the federal level, so I think it's not outside the realm of possibility that you'd be stuck in there with someone you knew.  Also irl in Chicago they actually stuck Piper and the woman Alex is based on in the same cell [!!] when it was time to testify, which one wouldn't think they would have done.  IIRC Piper spent her first few nights fantasizing about killing her, but they eventually reached a truce and buried a bit of hatchet anyways.

[jonesingjay]

What did Yoga Jones do? Did she really kill a kid? I just finished watching episode six. We get Janae's backstory. She gets into it with Yoga Jones, trying to push her buttons, when she guesses that she killed a kid Janae gets slapped.

[halgia]

This is probably just spite and I know she SAID it was political activism, but I really want Brook to actually be in there for something much more mundane. Like she said that Meadow "was" her best friend. It made me wonder if she had been drinking (or texting) and driving and gotten into an accident that got Meadow killed. Although if that's the case she would be a sociopath because she is rather upbeat.

That would be interesting, but Meadow asked if she could send Brook a care package (or at least Brook said so), so probably not exactly that.

 

 

What did Yoga Jones do? Did she really kill a kid? I just finished watching episode six. We get Janae's backstory. She gets into it with Yoga Jones, trying to push her buttons, when she guesses that she killed a kid Janae gets slapped.

Answered in a later episode. :)

[Zuleikha]

I just finished watching the Sister Ingalls backstory episode, and I'm very confused by it. I didn't get the impression that Sister Ingalls confessed to an affair with the Central American guerilla guy in her book--that would be a big deal for a nun! She wouldn't have been so calm when the lawyer-esque guy was reading the chapter from the book. What on earth did the Church excommunicate her for? You can't be excommunicated just for self-aggrandizement. Excommunication is a big deal!

[Cubisa]

Yoga Jones was growing weed in her backyard, and shot an 8 year old boy she thought was a deer.

[CherithCutestory]

Drug offenses are usually not federal crimes unless the circumstances qualify it - like possessing drugs on federal property or dealing on a cruise ship, etc. State prisons are filled with women convicted of drug offenses, so it is very confusing to me why some of them are there in federal custody. I wish a quick line on the show would explain. Feds don't play host to state offenders.

 

 

Almost drug distribution/trafficking offense could be a federal crime under the theory of aggregation in the commerce clause. Meaning that drug sale and activity crosses borders and even if one person is only selling within the confines of their state it impacts the drug trade in aggregate.  So, you can be in violation of federal law. This is a huge issue in states where marijuana is now legal becaue technically the DEA could come in and shut down an otherwise legal store. And that has happened with medical marijuana stores in California. These are places that grown their own they aren't importing. Currently there is just an agreement not to do that but they could. Yoga Jones would be a classic example of this.

 

They just usually don't get involved with low-level drug stuff on the state level. But if there is any relatively signifcant ring the feds very well could be the one to sweep in on that. Which is probably what happened with Vee and Taystee.

 

When I was a prosecutor a lot of the cops I worked with also belonged to federal taskforces. And assisted the feds with penetrating local drug rings. Cops like to work with the Feds on drug cases because the Feds are much more aggressive about asset forfeiture than the states (which is saying something because a lot of states are pretty damn aggressive with it already). And they have more resources to really dig in and go after everything a person has (homes, cars, boats). And the local guys get a percentage of anything that comes in through asset forfeiture. And DA's are usually okay handing things over to the Feds, unless it is a really high profile case, because they are already overworked. And a local DA's office also usually gets a small percentage of asset forfeiture money if they have provided any help with the case (drafted affadavits for warrants, sat in for a transfer of the case, sat in for an arraignment).

 

Also, RICO is a very broad statute and a lot of people could fall under it. And there are all sorts of gun charges that come under federal law. So, there are all manner of ways federal jurisdiction can kick in. And the power dynamic being what it is, if the Feds want it the Feds usually get it if they could plausibly have jurisdiction.

 

Also, Morello crossed state lines in order to stalk Christopher and his fiance. She followed them on their trip to Jersey something they made a point to tell us twice. And there are federal anti-stalking laws if you crossed state lines  to threaten or harrass. So she could very well be in for stalking and not mail fraud, which she may have never been caught doing.

 

http://www.victimsofcrime.org/our-programs/stalking-resource-center/stalking-laws/federal-stalking-laws

Edited December 18, 2014 by CherithCutestory

[possibilities]

Somewhere in another thread, someone asked how much time you could get for food stamp fraud. I just looked up what the penalties are, and it looks like you could get up to 20 years for a big case: http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/what-is-the-punishment-for-food-stamp-fraud-342755.html

...if you knowingly use, transfer, acquire, alter, or possess food stamp benefits "in any manner contrary to the Food Stamp Act" you can be fined and imprisoned. If the value of the benefits is $5,000 or more, then you can be fined up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment for 20 years....

 

I've been trying to find statistics on what percentage of women in prison are convicted of what particular crimes (i.e. how many for drug related offenses, how many for credit card fraud, what percentage robbed banks, etc). I thought it would be easy to find, but apparently my search prowess is not what I'd hoped, so I am still looking.

 

I did find this: http://www.corrections.com/news/article/30166-statistics-on-women-offenders

Thirty-six percent of females were incarcerated for violent crimes. Property offenses (30 percent) and drug offenses (26 percent) were the next most prevalent offenses.

It's not as detailed as what I was hoping to find, but it's a start.

[Pallida]

I think it'd be difficult to parse out percentages since people are often convicted of multiple offenses, unless you just generally mean "of those in prison, how many were convicted of X."  (I am curious now how many drug offenses coincide with credit card or check fraud now.)  You might find something similar to what you're looking for at the Bureau of Justice Statistics website: http://www.bjs.gov

[Lillybee]

Theresa Guidice,RHONJ, combination of real person and TV personality has been sentenced to 13 months in a federal pen in Conn.

It would be interesting if a somewhat like character showed up on this show.