S01.E06: Mombie Dearest

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

As Lizzie and Josie prepare for their long awaited sweet sixteen party, Alaric finds himself preoccupied with the latest supernatural arrival - one that hits a little too close to home. Elsewhere, Penelope'slatest plan gives MG one last shot at impressing Lizzie on her big day, while an unexpected betrayal causes tensions to boil over between Hope and Rafael.

Promo:

 

Original air date: 12/6/18

[Diapason Untuned]

Thoughts on this episode

• When Hope hears that she needs a friend, she immediately goes for someone who just said he was done with her, and she somehow makes it work. Such a Klaus move.
• Whatever MG was drinking this episode, I'm going to need a barrell of it. When he shoots his shot, he shoots his shot.
• Once again, Penelope was trash. She's so interested in screwing Lizzie over that she doesn't care if Josie gets hurt in the crossfire.
• This whole resurrected Jo thing was far more touching than I thught it would be.
• Dorian making some excellent choices for Alaric. Maybe he should be running that school?
• Jury's out on this Necromancer dude. Intro was crap, but next ep seems promising.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Diapason Untuned

[UNOSEZ]

Enjoyable.. Got good work from MG and Penelope... The saltzman family stuff was powerful and sad... And RAF/ Josie are still the best pairing on the show.. If they ever go there with them.. I could see them working or they could be sniping platonic life partners and that could work as well... Liking MG and Penelope ad friends as well

[ursula]

Best part of the show for me was: Jo being so gracious and sensible about Caroline being the twins' mother. They could easily have shoe-horned some nonsense there of her being jealous and they didn't. It looks like the show has entirely retconned Alaric's creepy romance with Caroline and you won't hear me complaining.

I also loved that tidbit about the Merge still happening. That's a Portend of Doom of epic proportions looming over the twins' heads and I hope they make it a series-long mytharc. 

Was it just me or did Hope seem superfluous in this episode? Having the school act like a real school and leave the adults in charge, the only way to write her into the A plot was to have her just randomly walk into it. I've always felt that the twins would have made better lead/central characters anyway. 

Oh and after all the discussion last week, I'm glad the show didn't "Nice Guy" Josie. Neither Lizzie nor Raf were thinking about Josie when they banged each other and Raf's primary concern was about not hurting the girl he had sex with while dealing with the fact that he just had sex for the first time since his girlfriend died. I am so, so, so glad that the show didn't dare judge his sexuality according to Josie's hurt feelings.

[Lady Calypso]

I actually really liked this episode. I think this was the best episode to date. Whether it was because of no Landon, focus on Josie and Alaric or them moving ahead on some of the pairings, it was nice. 

The Mombie Dearest plot was actually very touching. As someone who stopped watching TVD during season 6 and have only caught various clips on what I've missed, I found the Jo stuff to be very moving. It was nice that it was genuinely her. 

I like the idea of the Merge, but I'm fully expecting them to move up the Merge somehow, since I don't think this show will wait six seasons or do a time jump for the twins to turn 22. 

I don't know why I can't warm to MG, but he bugs me so much. I don't like the idea of him and Lizzie together. I'm not even sure why. I was more annoyed by his gestures with Lizzie, rather than endeared. I'm pretty sure I was supposed to feel the latter.

 Meanwhile, I do genuinely like Rafael. He made a stupid move with sleeping with Lizzie, but at least he was honest with her by the end. She seemed to take it alright (for now), though she was definitely hurt. 

Josie's stuff was amazing. I liked the Penelope stuff as well. I still am not feeling them as a couple, but I feel like the actresses have been playing their characters more like scorned friends, rather than scorned lovers. I do like how passionate Penelope is about Josie, but she's also still doing it more for herself. Still, I did like their ending scene. 

Hope didn't get too much to do besides bond with Rafael and fight zombies.

The Necromancer doesn't interest me, but I did genuinely laugh at how melodramatic he was and how annoyed Alaric and Dorian were at the end. 

[Diapason Untuned]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

 Oh and after all the discussion last week, I'm glad the show didn't "Nice Guy" Josie. Neither Lizzie nor Raf were thinking about Josie when they banged each other and

No one said Lizzie was thinking about Josie though...

 

Quote

Raf's primary concern was about not hurting the girl he had sex with while dealing with the fact that he just had sex for the first time since his girlfriend died.

This was good, along with the fact that Raf understands what he did was not good for either of them.

 

Quote

I am so, so, so glad that the show didn't dare judge his sexuality according to Josie's hurt feelings.

*...sigh*

It was not about Josie's hurt feelings, but Raf choosing to hurt her. I suppose that since the show wants me to believe that Raf has no clue about Josie's feelings and that his anger at Josie had aboslutely nothing to do with him sleeping with her sister less than 5 minutes later, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

[ursula]

17 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

don't know why I can't warm to MG, but he bugs me so much. I don't like the idea of him and Lizzie together.

It's the Nice Guy trope - geeky guy likes bitchy girl and she ends up falling for him. It's dated and it's not unconnected to some real-life "unfortunate implications". It's also why I knee-jerk disliked the assertion re: Raf/Josie last week which I can't reiterate enough how glad I am that this episode killed dead.

 

20 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I liked the Penelope stuff as well. I still am not feeling them as a couple, but I feel like the actresses have been playing their characters more like scorned friends, rather than scorned lovers.

THIS! They are definitely playing up the X-factor more with the past few episodes to the extent that it almost feels they've retconned their relationship in the Pilot. Up until now the vibe was that Penelope had dumped Josie and broken her heart. Now it seems like a more complicated "it's me or your twin" with Josie choosing Lizzie dynamic.

24 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think this was the best episode to date. Whether it was because of no Landon, focus on Josie and Alaric or them moving ahead on some of the pairings, it was nice. 

I think so, too. I wish the show was more like this, honestly. While Hope has the Lonely Orphan Girl (from a Large Extended Family of half-immortals) that ostensibly makes her the Chosen One, the twins have a deeper, more unexplored mytharc to tap into and they're more central characters as Alaric's and Caroline's children.

And Landon is just... 🙄 The show should have stuck to its original concept and made him a normal human with the drama of Hope fraternising with the forbidden townies.

[Lady Calypso]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

I think so, too. I wish the show was more like this, honestly. While Hope has the Lonely Orphan Girl (from a Large Extended Family of half-immortals) that ostensibly makes her the Chosen One, the twins have a deeper, more unexplored mytharc to tap into and they're more central characters as Alaric's and Caroline's children.

It really is funny that Hope could have been taken out of this episode completely and I would have been fine with it. Maybe it's because Josie/Lizzie are more interesting characters or the two actresses scream "Leading Lady" while Danielle seems to play a supporting character better.

5 minutes ago, ursula said:

It's the Nice Guy trope - geeky guy likes bitchy girl and she ends up falling for him. It's dated and it's not unconnected to some real-life "unfortunate implications". It's also why I knee-jerk disliked the assertion re: Raf/Josie last week which I can't reiterate enough how glad I am that this episode killed dead.

 

Yeah, this is it exactly. MG is a Nice Guy. His whole "shoot his shot" doesn't sound sincere when it comes to Lizzie. I know Lizzie is very selfish and isn't quite a catch, but MG's just not a good guy, but not in an entertaining way.

They do seem intent on making sure the audience realizes how selfish Lizzie is and how awful she can be. I reckon we're supposed to be on Josie's side, but I wonder if it's going to lead to Lizzie making some big sacrifice for her twin.

[Diapason Untuned]

Why do you think MG is insincere about Lizzie again?

[ursula]

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It really is funny that Hope could have been taken out of this episode completely and I would have been fine with it. Maybe it's because Josie/Lizzie are more interesting characters or the two actresses scream "Leading Lady" while Danielle seems to play a supporting character better.

THIS.

I don't think it's so much the actress, but that Legacies!Hope is so different from The-Originals!Hope that she's almost a new character. There are decisions the show made - alienating her from her peers, "bonding" her (for lack of a better word) to Alaric, over-presenting the Poor!Orphan!Hope shtick... I think there's a powerful storyline for Hope somewhere in all this, but the show has gone about it the wrong way.

13 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

They do seem intent on making sure the audience realizes how selfish Lizzie is and how awful she can be. I reckon we're supposed to be on Josie's side, but I wonder if it's going to lead to Lizzie making some big sacrifice for her twin.

And all I see are two girls who both have issues, neither being morally "better" than the other. 

19 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

MG is a Nice Guy. His whole "shoot his shot" doesn't sound sincere when it comes to Lizzie. I know Lizzie is very selfish and isn't quite a catch, but MG's just not a good guy, but not in an entertaining way.

I am really hoping that they have MG "grow out" of his crush on Lizzie and move on. He actually vibes well with Penelope. They have a snarky banter that is entertaining. The Pilot established him and Josie as BFFs, but I haven't seen much of it since then. That's also another ship I could get on board with. 

Just realized that I'm exclusively shipping him with girls, but is it canon that he's straight?

[Lady Calypso]

10 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Why do you think MG is insincere about Lizzie again?

For me, it just sounds like he loves the idea of Lizzie or what he perceives her to be, rather than her. Yes, he knows things about her, but there's a disconnect between MG crushing on Lizzie and MG crushing on the idea of Lizzie. It's hard to explain. I think MG works well with Penelope and I do like MG's scenes with Josie, so I don't think it's entirely the character; it's more just the MG/Lizzie pairing.

6 minutes ago, ursula said:

And all I see are two girls who both have issues, neither being morally "better" than the other. 

True. But I think they're being more blatant with Lizzie than with Josie. Look at how many people seem to like Josie and look at who likes Lizzie, canonically (Lizzie only really has Alaric and MG fully on her side). Again, it's more the writing showcasing Lizzie as "more wrong". I don't like how Lizzie treats Josie, but the last few episodes have really driven the point home about how self absorbed Lizzie is and how inferior Josie feels. 

[Josie means Love]

I was loving the show in the beginning, but the last two episodes seem illogical to me. You set up something in the previous episode and then you completely ruin it in the next, without even mentioning some of the things or taking them under consideration. Rafael being honest to Lizzie this episode was the 2nd best thing that happened, the other being Jo, just for the nostalgic vibes. 

Everyone knows that I didn't like their brief romance at the end of last episode so I'm glad he cleared it up and by the looks of it, his girlfriend (probably another zombie) is being brought back next episode, which is certainly going to develop his character even further. 

Basically, that's what I don't like about the show - Penelope acts all bitchy during the first couple of episodes, then she suddenly starts caring about Josie and then even kisses her. That's messed up dude, she's supposed to have dumped her and broken her heart, what the hell. Rafael lost his girlfriend, expressed interest in Josie, he was hurt by Josie's decision to let Landon go and then slept with her sister, just because he "was angry"?!

Pretty much - I hated Raf last episode, I liked him this episode. I loved Penelope last episode, I hated her this episode. And they're just the example I'm giving, they're not the only ones. The show's constantly changing and it's pretty messed up, Julie doesn't seem to care about what she's setting up the previous episode and then ruining it in the next one. I really, really, really hope Posie doesn't go through, it just doesn't feel right at the moment. 

[Diapason Untuned]

8 minutes ago, ursula said:

And all I see are two girls who both have issues, neither being morally "better" than the other. 

Yeah, Josie has her problems, but Lizzie is being characterized as so incredibly selfish in regards to her sister that it's real hard not to take Josie's side.

[ursula]

32 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

True. But I think they're being more blatant with Lizzie than with Josie. Look at how many people seem to like Josie and look at who likes Lizzie, canonically (Lizzie only really has Alaric and MG fully on her side). Again, it's more the writing showcasing Lizzie as "more wrong". I don't like how Lizzie treats Josie, but the last few episodes have really driven the point home about how self absorbed Lizzie is and how inferior Josie feels. 

Yes, I definitely think the show wants me to prefer Josie which is typical Plec-verse contradictory nonsense because on the one hand, Lizzie is self-absorbed and Josie feels inferior. But on the other hand, it's Josie, not Lizzie, that once used dark magic and attacked her ex. And it's Lizzie, not Josie, that got humiliated by the Mystic Falls thugs and rose above it, and even volunteered to save the girl that had bullied her in the previous episodes. 

So I do get that the writers are telling me (through Penelope, etc) that Lizzie is bad and Josie is her victim  ---- but at the same time, they're doing a really bad job of showing this.

Edited December 7, 2018 by ursula

[Chris24601]

I liked the Saltzman family drama, but I think my favorite part was finding out what Caroline has really been up to because her past relationship with her daughters makes her absence conspicuous and hunting down leads for a way for her girls to avoid the merge deal is much more in line with the Caroline we’ve seen before than one who’s simply too busy recruiting new students to not come home due to the latest drama with the knife.

It also makes me think the merge issue or a dangerous possible method of avoiding it will come up later in the season... or at least knowledge of it will be given to Josie and Lizzie which will greatly affect how they interact with one another.

I also thought Hope, Penelope and MG made a generally entertaining group for monster stomping and wouldn’t mind seeing more of that grouping down the line.

[HunterHunted]

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

The Necromancer doesn't interest me, but I did genuinely laugh at how melodramatic he was and how annoyed Alaric and Dorian were at the end. 

That was a heaping help of "I don't have time for this riddle, game, or song and dance bullshit. I'm so over it."

[ketose]

7 hours ago, ursula said:

THIS.

I don't think it's so much the actress, but that Legacies!Hope is so different from The-Originals!Hope that she's almost a new character. There are decisions the show made - alienating her from her peers, "bonding" her (for lack of a better word) to Alaric, over-presenting the Poor!Orphan!Hope shtick... I think there's a powerful storyline for Hope somewhere in all this, but the show has gone about it the wrong way.

Hope may still be recovering from the fact she sired a wolf into a hybrid, which led to his death. Like Alaric said, she's a cautionary tale.

I'd just like to gripe about the show ruining several 80's songs tonight by the exclusive use of remakes of said songs at the birthday party.

[UNOSEZ]

Also I think having no Landon helped... Gave some room to breathe for other characters especially Hope.. She's been great with Josie and RAF and her teamup with MG and Penelope was fun... But her around Landon is just a bit of a downer at least so far.. Maybe when he comes back and other relationships have settled some he can fit in better... But for now it works better that he's gone

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Even though I've been complaining about Alaric this season, I definitely saw some of old TVD Alaric when Jo walked into his office and his immediate reaction was to pick up a crossbow and aim it at her. He's been around long enough to know that when something looks like your dead wife, it's usually NOT your dead wife (case in point: the last time Alaric thought Jo had come back from the dead, it was some other random person in her body).

I was cracking up at the idea that production has been keeping Jo's bloody wedding gown since S6 of TVD just in case they need it for something like this.

Ugh, Caroline wasn't even in this episode and I still had to hear her oft-used phrase "the love of my life." Please stop with that already, writers. It's like "champion" on Angel aka nails on a chalkboard to me.

One thing that annoyed me was that Alaric told the girls to go away and instead of listening, they magically opened his locked door and barged in. Seriously, girls, do you not respect your father's privacy or anything he says?

I loved how fiercely protective Lizzie was about Caroline. It's clear that she sees Caroline as her mom (not just the surrogate who carried them) and Jo as the bio mom who is a stranger (and I really liked that Jo understood that and accepted it instead of demanding to be an instamom to girls who had spent 16 years without her). I totally understand that, but I also understand Josie wanting to talk to her. I wish she hadn't let Lizzie pressure her into leaving. My feeling is that when dead people pop up, you shouldn't count on them being around indefinitely - if you have questions, ASK THEM NOW. I'm glad that Lizzie later apologized to Jo for being so rude to her.

I rolled my eyes when we got the Elena/Damon/Stefan "I walked halfway down the staircase for my dramatic entrance and only then realized that my escort wasn't here and someone else swooped in at the last second" scenario with Lizzie/MG/Rafael. Seriously, show, when you're ripping off your own storylines, I KNOW that you aren't even trying anymore.

When the DJ hit that obnoxious horn sound, I was waiting to hear "You're listening to Ira and the Douche!"

I'm glad that Rafael was finally honest with Lizzie about his feelings, but did he have to do it in the middle of her birthday party? I know he only did it because she brought up having sex with him later that night, but it must have been devastating for her to get dumped during her party surrounded by all of their classmates. If I were him, I would have brushed off what she said and then broken up with her after the party in private.

And it was kind of a dick move for Lizzie to ask Rafael to be her date to the party without telling him ahead of time that he would have to do all that escort stuff and making sure he was familiar/comfortable with it. If Hope hadn't taught him, he would have been so self conscious and embarrassed.

I hope that this is the end of the Lizzie/MG stuff. Although Penelope clearly has a bias against Lizzie, urging him to get over Lizzie was not bad advice. He took his shot and she had fun with him, but she dropped him the second that Rafael showed up. SHE'S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU, MG.

MG is such a try hard around Lizzie, and part of me understands it because I remember what it was like to have a really intense crush with someone who you think is out of your league. His scenes with Penelope, Josie, and Hope are all so much better because he is just being himself so I really hope this is the end of his obviously unrequited crush on Lizzie. Let him just be awesome with everyone else.

I liked Jo in TVD but she wasn't my favorite so knowing that she was going to be in this episode didn't elicit any kind of OMGWTFBBQ reaction from me, but I really enjoyed her presence. From her patience with Alaric (the last time she saw him, they were about to get married and she comes back from an infinite void to find him pointing a crossbow at her and threatening to kill her, then she answers all of his questions, ignores his obvious mistrust of her, and then sacrifices herself in order to keep him and the girls safe) to her practicality and willingness to give up the chance to be with her family, she was great.

Ha, I LOVE that Dorian knew the monster would ask for the knife so he took it and wouldn't give it back to Alaric, even to save Josie. I really appreciate that he refused to be swayed by Alaric's love for Josie because HELLO, this knife could bring about the apocalypse! Finally we have someone in Mystic Falls with a good head on their shoulders who isn't willing to risk the safety of the entire world because of one person.

Who was in the car with Dorian with he was on the phone with Alaric telling him that he took the knife? It was really dark on my screen so I couldn't tell who it was.

I was cracking up earlier when Alaric said he had all the teachers looking for Jo. I was like WHAT OTHER TEACHERS? All we've seen are Alaric, Dorian, and Emma so I really want to hear about all these teachers who were out scouring the Salvatore estate for Jo. I'd loved to have heard Alaric's instructions/explanation to them too: "My dead almost wife who was murdered just before we could say 'I do' showed up in my office wearing her bloody wedding dress. I'm still undecided as to whether she's a monster wearing her body or not, but at any rate, she's disappeared so if you guys could help me find her - you know, just to be on the safe side - that would be great. Don't worry about leaving all of the teenage students unsupervised at my daughters' birthday party. I'm sure none of them are drinking alcohol, doing drugs, getting into fights, or doing dangerous magic."

I knew it was just a matter of time before Hope formed her own Scooby gang so it was nice to see that happen. I was cracking up at MG afterward, convinced that he's now a superhero. I just hope his cockiness doesn't end up getting him hurt in the near future. Yes, you have supernatural powers but know your limits, man!

Alaric and Dorian's dry reaction to the Necromancer announcing himself was like classic Buffy. Loved it!

Edited December 8, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo
typos

[Diapason Untuned]

10 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

For me, it just sounds like he loves the idea of Lizzie or what he perceives her to be, rather than her. Yes, he knows things about her, but there's a disconnect between MG crushing on Lizzie and MG crushing on the idea of Lizzie. 

I would buy this if MG and Lizzie weren't already friends. Aside from family members, he seems to be the only person that likes her or even really knows her, so I'm not sure what this idea of Lizzie he's supposed to be in love with even is.

 

Quote

Look at how many people seem to like Josie and look at who likes Lizzie, canonically (Lizzie only really has Alaric and MG fully on her side). 

At this point, Lizzie is almost a deconstruction. She's characterized as a popular queen bee type character, but out of all her peers, MG is the only person that likes her. Even Rafael, who's been there for a minute, immediately said he wanted nothing to do with her and only changed his mind- a bit- because he felt guilty about sleeping with her.

 

10 hours ago, ursula said:

Yes, I definitely think the show wants me to prefer Josie which is typical Plec-verse contradictory nonsense because on the one hand, Lizzie is self-absorbed and Josie feels inferior. But on the other hand, it's Josie, not Lizzie, that once used dark magic and attacked her ex. And it's Lizzie, not Josie, that got humiliated by the Mystic Falls thugs and rose above it, and even volunteered to save the girl that had bullied her in the previous episodes. 

So I do get that the writers are telling me (through Penelope, etc) that Lizzie is bad and Josie is her victim  ---- but at the same time, they're doing a really bad job of showing this.

Those are all external things. In terms of their relationship, Lizzie is clearly shown to the cause of most of the problems.

[Lady Calypso]

13 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

I would buy this if MG and Lizzie weren't already friends. Aside from family members, he seems to be the only person that likes her or even really knows her, so I'm not sure what this idea of Lizzie he's supposed to be in love with even is.

Ok, then I guess I simply don't like the couple. I don't see chemistry with the actors, if it's not about the writing with MG/Lizzie. Or maybe it's all of it. Maybe it's not as simple to explain my feelings about them as I hoped. 

22 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

MG is such a try hard around Lizzie, and part of me really understands it because I remember what it was like to have a really intense crush with someone who you think is out of your league. His scenes with Penelope, Josie, and Hope are all so much better because he is just being himself so I really hope this is the end of his obviously unrequited crush on Lizzie. Let him just be awesome with everyone else.

I 100% see Lizzie falling for him at some point. Why? Because that's how it tends to go with teenage TV dramas. Boy has unrequited crush and chases girl until she gives in. It's so rare for this type of show to have the unrequited crush JUST stay an unrequited crush. I'd rather MG/Lizzie be friends. I'm annoyed at the trope. I think that's my overall problem with MG/Lizzie; it's so tropey and it's one that I've never liked because it's so rarely done well. See: the obligatory "romantic wooing" scene with MG and Lizzie in this episode. He goes all out for her, which....I guess bugs me as a viewer. And I know that him knowing what she liked was supposed to be the real romantic gesture, but...I was ticked off more than endeared by MG. 

[paulvdb]

53 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ha, I LOVE that Dorian knew the monster would ask for the knife so he took it and wouldn't give it back to Alaric, even to save Josie. I really appreciate that he refuses to be swayed by Alaric's love for Josie because HELLO, this knife could bring about he apocalypse! Finally we have someone in Mystic Falls with a good head on their shoulders who isn't willing to risk the safety of the entire world because of one person.

If I could I would heart this paragraph 1000 times. That's something that always bugged me not just in the TVD universe but on just about every other tv show where this happens. So I love Dorian for just taking the knife away.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 minutes ago, paulvdb said:

If I could I would heart this paragraph 1000 times. That's something that always bugged me not just in this universe but on just about every other tv show where this happens. So I love Dorian for just taking the knife away.

Imagine if the original Scoobies on TVD had just once said, "Well, if letting you die will SAVE THE WORLD, we'll miss you a lot but we can't in good conscience let millions of people die."

Edited December 7, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[AngelKitty]

Quote

MG: To kill a walker, you gotta go for the brain. Everybody knows that.
Penelope: Yeah, every nerd maybe. Just call it a zombie.

I copied this from the quotes thread because it totally cracked me up when they said that.

 

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was cracking up earlier when Alaric said he had all the teachers looking for Jo. I was like WHAT OTHER TEACHERS?

This has been my beef since the beginning.

I feel so sorry for MG because he looks so young and is never going to get older.

I guess they had to have some sort of "big bad" arc, but I'm really more interested in how the school works. I would think there would be more adults being turned into vampires or werewolves than kids.  

[Artsda]

I'm glad they said where Caroline is because it's not like her to not be there for her daughters Sweet 16. She would have thrown that ball and made sure everything was planned and go crazy over it.

Liked seeing Jo return, but Alaric's "love of my life" was a bit much since how rushed they were. He seemed to loved Elena's sister more.

[ursula]

4 hours ago, Artsda said:

Liked seeing Jo return, but Alaric's "love of my life" was a bit much since how rushed they were. He seemed to loved Elena's sister more.

Well he proposed to Jo, so that counts for something. I never bought Alaric/Jenna. He gaslighted her too much.

[paulvdb]

7 hours ago, Artsda said:

He seemed to loved Elena's sister more.

Jenna was Elena's aunt, not her sister. And I was also thinking that Jenna or Isobel would be the love of Alaric's life. But I can understand why they went with Jo on this show because Jenna and Isobel would not have any relation with the twins.

[GaT]

Every moment Lizzie is on screen, this show sucks. I hate her.

[Lambsilencer]

It was nice to see Jodi Lyn O'Keefe again as Jo. And yes, I'm glad it was mostly really her, and the love she showed for Alaric and the girls was truly genuine. I think they found a nice way to bring closure to that chapter of "The Vampire Diaries".

The only gripe I have, and I have this with many shows that do this: The haunting, beautiful scene with Jo saying goodbye would have been the perfect ending for the episode - somber, yes, sad, yes, but also poignant and it would keep lingering with the audience long after the episode has ended.

But practically every time there is such a scene near the end in a show it's always that, near the end. Never the actual end. There's always a much less weighty scene tacked on which ruins the haunting mood of moments like this. I wonder why that is. Maybe it's a network mandate because TPTB fear that people would be done and not watch the next program if they end with a sad scene like that?

Too bad, that move has tampered with many a wonderfully emotional scene staying with us after the episode has ended, sinking in deeper, because it was not the final moment.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Lambsilencer

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On a related note, I hated that they used light/wacky music during some of the more serious scenes earlier in the episode.

I was also going to complain about all the covers of 80s songs, but since they weren't as bad as the terrible season of emo cover songs on Grey's Anatomy a few years ago, I'm going to let it go and just hope it deosn't happen a lot in the future.

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

as the terrible season of emo cover songs on Grey's Anatomy a few years ago,

Arrrgh... What was that?  Every episode I was cooling out watching my show then bam.. Some bizarre version of a classic starts taking me all out of my zone

[Check Sanity]

On 12/6/2018 at 11:03 PM, ursula said:

I think so, too. I wish the show was more like this, honestly. While Hope has the Lonely Orphan Girl (from a Large Extended Family of half-immortals) that ostensibly makes her the Chosen One, the twins have a deeper, more unexplored mytharc to tap into and they're more central characters as Alaric's and Caroline's children.

And Landon is just... 🙄 The show should have stuck to its original concept and made him a normal human with the drama of Hope fraternising with the forbidden townies.

1

As if that concept hasn't been told a million times before... I'm kind of glad they twisted things, especially after Matt on TVD and the way they kind of trapped themselves storytelling wise there. Plus it makes more sense for this show to not have human core characters (yet).

On 12/6/2018 at 11:30 PM, ursula said:

I am really hoping that they have MG "grow out" of his crush on Lizzie and move on. He actually vibes well with Penelope. They have a snarky banter that is entertaining. The Pilot established him and Josie as BFFs, but I haven't seen much of it since then. That's also another ship I could get on board with. 

Just realized that I'm exclusively shipping him with girls, but is it canon that he's straight?

 

After MG and Penelope were caught feeding/kissing, that put a strain on his friendship with the twins. 
So far yes he's straight. Also considering his confusion about Penelope flirting with him, he seemed unaware that one could be bi, pan, etc. While he could prove to not be straight, it's unlikely.

On 12/7/2018 at 10:44 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I 100% see Lizzie falling for him at some point. Why? Because that's how it tends to go with teenage TV dramas. Boy has unrequited crush and chases girl until she gives in. It's so rare for this type of show to have the unrequited crush JUST stay an unrequited crush. I'd rather MG/Lizzie be friends. I'm annoyed at the trope. I think that's my overall problem with MG/Lizzie; it's so tropey and it's one that I've never liked because it's so rarely done well. See: the obligatory "romantic wooing" scene with MG and Lizzie in this episode. He goes all out for her, which....I guess bugs me as a viewer. And I know that him knowing what she liked was supposed to be the real romantic gesture, but...I was ticked off more than endeared by MG. 

5

I think I'd like to see a missed timing unrequited love type story that ends with them being friends. 

On 12/6/2018 at 11:40 PM, Josie means Love said:

I was loving the show in the beginning, but the last two episodes seem illogical to me. You set up something in the previous episode and then you completely ruin it in the next, without even mentioning some of the things or taking them under consideration. Rafael being honest to Lizzie this episode was the 2nd best thing that happened, the other being Jo, just for the nostalgic vibes. 

Everyone knows that I didn't like their brief romance at the end of last episode so I'm glad he cleared it up and by the looks of it, his girlfriend (probably another zombie) is being brought back next episode, which is certainly going to develop his character even further. 

Basically, that's what I don't like about the show - Penelope acts all bitchy during the first couple of episodes, then she suddenly starts caring about Josie and then even kisses her. That's messed up dude, she's supposed to have dumped her and broken her heart, what the hell. Rafael lost his girlfriend, expressed interest in Josie, he was hurt by Josie's decision to let Landon go and then slept with her sister, just because he "was angry"?!

Pretty much - I hated Raf last episode, I liked him this episode. I loved Penelope last episode, I hated her this episode. And they're just the example I'm giving, they're not the only ones. The show's constantly changing and it's pretty messed up, Julie doesn't seem to care about what she's setting up the previous episode and then ruining it in the next one. I really, really, really hope Posie doesn't go through, it just doesn't feel right at the moment. 

On 12/7/2018 at 12:01 AM, ursula said:

Yes, I definitely think the show wants me to prefer Josie which is typical Plec-verse contradictory nonsense because on the one hand, Lizzie is self-absorbed and Josie feels inferior. But on the other hand, it's Josie, not Lizzie, that once used dark magic and attacked her ex. And it's Lizzie, not Josie, that got humiliated by the Mystic Falls thugs and rose above it, and even volunteered to save the girl that had bullied her in the previous episodes. 

So I do get that the writers are telling me (through Penelope, etc) that Lizzie is bad and Josie is her victim  ---- but at the same time, they're doing a really bad job of showing this.

Have you two considered you're trying to force the characters into tropes and the writers are trying to show the characters as multifaceted, contradictory, flawed teenagers on purpose?

@Josie means Love They're not going to unveil everything about a character all in one episode. Just because someone breaks up with another person does not mean they weren't hurt themselves. As I said in last episode's thread, Raf is just reacting to his immediate present. This episode he finally started to reconcile with his grief, it's been 6 weeks since his gf died. Despite showing some interest in Josie, his grief is way more present and significant at this point. 
@ursula I don't think they're trying to show Lizzie as "bad", she's self-absorbed but not uncaring. Her issue was pointed out this episode via Jo. Lizzie doesn't really open up and show her heart (except to her family) and in doing so keeps everyone else at a distance. I don't think the show is trying to make people pick and choose between the twins at all. Viewers do that on their own as is.

The twins overall arc seems like it's going to be tied to the merge problem that looms in their future. Likely for them to defeat that will require a balance between the two. However, they have different personal arcs and issues to overcome. They're both at their core good, so we should be liking both, it's just people (audience) gravitate towards people/characters based on their own biases.

I'll give that the writers and actors may not be hitting the mark perfectly, but the contradictions pointed out aren't unreasonable to me.

On 12/7/2018 at 10:18 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Who was in the car with Dorian with he was on the phone with Alaric telling him that he took the knife? It was really dark on my screen so I couldn't tell who it was.

 

It was Emma. 

Do we know what Dorian is, if anything? He can hold his own and we've seen him teach, but I don't think he was doing the magic himself in that scene. 

 

6 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Arrrgh... What was that?  Every episode I was cooling out watching my show then bam.. Some bizarre version of a classic starts taking me all out of my zone

Heh The Safety Dance song is the one that got me. As in I suddenly clued into the song lyrics and then was completely taken out of the scene of Raf and Hope becoming friends.

[ursula]

12 minutes ago, Check Sanity said:

As if that concept hasn't been told a million times before...

You mean like the concept of magic schools... supernatural teenagers... special orphan chosen ones.... quests.... magic swords.... ad nauseum. 🤣 

 

12 minutes ago, Check Sanity said:

Plus it makes more sense for this show to not have human core characters

🤣Alaric and Dorian would like to have a word with you. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by ursula

[ursula]

7 minutes ago, Check Sanity said:

Have you two considered you're trying to force the characters into tropes and the writers are trying to show the characters as multifaceted, contradictory, flawed teenagers on purpose?

🤣🤣🤣 We're still talking about the Plecverse right?

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

🤣🤣🤣 We're still talking about the Plecverse right?

She also basically proffessed her love for the Hope/Landon  pairing.. And that any hope/RAF interactions would be him keeping the sheets warm for Landon.. Which In and of itself im not really against.. They could work as best friends.. But I don't want the option off the table... As just a sacrifice to the Landon/Hope ship ahead has in her dreams... I still think her infatuation with Damon /Elena really bogged down TVD... So I have no faith in her

[Josie means Love]

Plec is one of the worst showrunners in history, she literally destroyed TVD. Season 7 and 8 were BS and they ruined the legacy of the previous 6 seasons. They shouldn't have even existed. I can't say anything about TO though, I haven't watched it past the middle of S3. The first 3-4 episodes of Legacies were really good, then came episode 5, and then 6, and it's going downfall real quick, at least for me. It's probably going to be renewed for a 2nd season, but it could and should be it's last. 

[Check Sanity]

4 hours ago, ursula said:

You mean like the concept of magic schools... supernatural teenagers... special orphan chosen ones.... quests.... magic swords.... ad nauseum. 🤣 

 

🤣Alaric and Dorian would like to have a word with you. 

 

On 12/6/2018 at 11:03 PM, ursula said:

I think so, too. I wish the show was more like this, honestly. While Hope has the Lonely Orphan Girl (from a Large Extended Family of half-immortals) that ostensibly makes her the Chosen One, the twins have a deeper, more unexplored mytharc to tap into and they're more central characters as Alaric's and Caroline's children.

And Landon is just... 🙄 The show should have stuck to its original concept and made him a normal human with the drama of Hope fraternising with the forbidden townies.

1

I did ask upthread if Dorian was for sure confirmed as human. Alaric, while currently human, has not lead a life where he was only human, so he's a weird exception. Especially since he's the headmaster of the school. 

I was snarking at the fact that one sentence wants the show to go with unexplored mytharc, and the very next wants more of the same. I'd have been fine with whatever, it's entertaining. Still, I do like a bit of mystery so I'm glad they went with Landon being something more and unknown. Plus so far the show has been killing off all its weekly folklore creatures, and I'd like for some of them to still exist in future seasons. With the rate they're going, I'm finding it hard to see the sustainability of the show's format as is. Plus it's not really expanding the world if they just keep killing off all the new creatures.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Check Sanity
formatting//typo

[Josie means Love]

They might find a way to save some of the creatures from Malivore (or free their minds so they no longer seek the knife, something like that) and take them to the school, although it's highly unlikely. It's monster of the week format so they're going to keep killing off new creatures every episode, except some upper tiers like that Necromancer guy. My guess is that he dies next episode, though. 

By the way, Dorian was wrong to call the Necromancer a "low-level witch cannon fodder". Probably he has never played Diablo 2. 

[ursula]

16 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

I was snarking at the fact that one sentence wants the show to go with unexplored mytharc, and the very next wants more of the same. I'd have been fine

Actually this:

16 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

While Hope has the Lonely Orphan Girl (from a Large Extended Family of half-immortals) that ostensibly makes her the Chosen One,

Is pointing out the fallacy of force-fitting Hope into an arc that contradicts her established backstory. The mytharc isn't wrong --- but it's wrong for Hope. As noted earlier:

On 12/6/2018 at 11:30 PM, ursula said:

On 12/6/2018 at 11:10 PM, Lady Calypso said:

It really is funny that Hope could have been taken out of this episode completely and I would have been fine with it. [...]

[...]Legacies!Hope is so different from The-Originals!Hope that she's almost a new character. There are decisions the show made - alienating her from her peers, "bonding" her (for lack of a better word) to Alaric, over-presenting the Poor!Orphan!Hope shtick... I think there's a powerful storyline for Hope somewhere in all this, but the show has gone about it the wrong way.

Tropes are not inherently good or bad. Obviously, they are tropes for a reason and they can be subverted in interesting ways e.g. the immortal/human dynamic is usually a male/female dynamic. Having Hope play a traditionally masculine role would have been interesting. Landon being another unicorn (even the phrase 'another unicorn' is practically an oxymoron)  when the show is already struggling with Hope is not.

Edited December 9, 2018 by ursula

[Check Sanity]

I wasn't talking about that part of the sentence, I was pointing at this part:

On 12/6/2018 at 11:03 PM, ursula said:

 the twins have a deeper, more unexplored mytharc to tap into and they're more central characters as Alaric's and Caroline's children.

 

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Tropes are not inherently good or bad. Obviously, they are tropes for a reason and they can be subverted in interesting ways e.g. the immortal/human dynamic is usually a male/female dynamic. Having Hope play a traditionally masculine role would have been intriguing. 

And the mystery surrounding Landon? All I see is another unicorn character when the show is already struggling with Hope. 

 

Agreed, and the suggestions you've mentioned, I think would be cool to see. However, I also like what we are seeing.

As for Landon being a unicorn, sure. But so is Hope, and so are the twins (as the last of their coven). So are the creatures of the week. In an environment where there are a bunch of unicorns, they end kind of all end up on an even playing field. They may not be the same type of Chosen One, but there are still aspects of being one that could help bond them.

As I noted, I'm all for more unique creatures or more "unicorns". For a few reasons but especially because I think there's an interesting thing the show is doing in regards to exploring friends becoming family. This episode had Raf confronting Hope's idea of family. Which I was so happy about after last episode showed so many of the kids not understanding how Raf and Landon are family. Or in the case of Josie, missing the fact that she considers the school family and they're not blood.

That's the other element that comes in to play here, the setting is a boarding school. Except for the twins, no one's parents are around, so it doesn't matter if they're orphans or not, other students easily become family (I say this from experience of having gone to boarding school).

By the way, Hope's bonding with Alaric is not abnormal. Kids who have dealt with grown-up things tend to gravitate towards adults because their peers can't relate. Also, people in boarding school tend to form stronger bonds with those in their immediate surrounding. Hope even went to Emma this episode to gush about her crush on Landon. Sure phones exist and visits home happen, but there is a strange "visitor" dynamic that happens when one goes away to school. Hope not being so close to her extended family when most of her time isn't spent with them isn't weird or a mischaracterization by the writers. It's pretty spot on. (I understand you don't like that they took this route. )

Where I think there has been some awkwardness with the writing is deciding whether this show is an ensemble or has a lead. This episode it felt more like an ensemble show. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Check Sanity

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

Hope's bonding with Alaric is not abnormal.

It's not abnormal, it's OOC to the established backstory.

2 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

Hope not being so close to her extended family when most of her time isn't spent with them isn't weird or a mischaracterization by the writers. It's pretty spot on. (I understand you don't like that they took this route. )

Again, OOC. Because we've already seen Hope being extraordinarily close to her extended family while a student in the school with a magical embargo on their proximity to boot. So it's not so much a personal preference for me as a despair at the lack of consistency/continuity. In addition, I liked The Originals!Hope and I was interested in seeing her story continue. (An unpopular opinion at the time, by the way). Legacies!Hope is so different that she might as well be a different character in a different story played by the same actor.

2 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

As for Landon being a unicorn, sure. But so is Hope, and so are the twins (as the last of their coven). So are the creatures of the week. 

The twins are witches with a unique back-story but they're not unicorns. If anything the show has downplayed the negative aspects of siphoning - as evidenced by Jo's lack of reaction at birthing children like Kai. The MOTWs are all disposable monsters of the same purpose, so they're not anymore unique than the Krypton-infested villains of Smallville or the Charmed monsters are. I mean they don't even get names. If anything the original TVD villains had more uniqueness (Klaus as Hybrid Original... travellers/Markos... Silas...Kai) in terms of powers and motivations than the Legacies fare.

The only unique unicorns left (pun intended) are Hope as tribid and Landon as undefined yet-not-monster supernatural. We're barely dealing with Hope's place in the supernatural world (another retcon from The Originals where she went by Hope Marshall, and kept her heritage and powers mostly hidden) and now the show is shoe-horning another unicorn when they haven't.... how do I put it? Fully explored the potential of the one they have.

(Now if the show was setting up Landon to be the Big Bad, I take back my complaints about the character. But again, Plecverse. Expectations are low.)

2 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

That's the other element that comes in to play here, the setting is a boarding school. Except for the twins, no one's parents are around, so it doesn't matter if they're orphans or not, other students easily become family (I say this from experience of having gone to boarding school).

Which would be relevant if the show didn't have Alaric as a principal character (Matt Davis is the male lead if I'm not wrong, not an "and "), and force a connection between him and only Hope. Again another retcon from the previous show where Alaric had a more distant relationship while Caroline was the Principal with the closer connection to Hope. Again forcing established characters to fit into cookie cutter patterns: Alaric/Elena pt 2 while ignoring the context that is there (Alaric's kids) and is not there (no Jenna/Isobel connection and unlike Elena, Hope has a large family she's closely connected to). 

 

2 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

I wasn't talking about that part of the sentence, I was pointing at this part

And I was pointing out that rather than forcing Hope and the story into a mytharc she didn't fit (Harry Potter in Hogwarts), they had a more intriguing one that they could have explored/expanded. I'm not condemning the trope  for its own sake because the trope doesn't fit into this story, at least not with its backstory, ergo why there's such a disconnect between TO and L. Not sure what the misunderstanding is there.

If you noticed, most of the problems are with the story in the context of being part of a larger established story. 

 

20 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

I did ask upthread if Dorian was for sure confirmed as human. Alaric, while currently human, has not lead a life where he was only human, so he's a weird exception. Especially since he's the headmaster of the school. 

If Alaric's non-human-ness was referred to more (or even in TVD where it was cancelled in the early episodes of season 6), I'd agree but the show keeps emphasizing his humanity, to the extent that it's what saves him from the gargoyle, and a good time to bring up his former life as a vampire - when Jo narrates how they met - glosses over it. Dorian has always been human, though, and he constantly presents as human on this show. There have been humans integrated well into the Plecverse - Alaric is the most obvious example, but so was John Gilbert before he died, but also Sheriff Forbes and to an extent, Carol Lockwood. So Landon could be integrated well. I also think it's a shame that the high-school rivals, as cartoonish as they were, were killed off so early because the schools's rivalry was interesting and the kids would have made interesting B-story arcs, and if they ever wanted to do a "Newbie Vampire" arc, they could have done so with one of those kids. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by ursula

[Diapason Untuned]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

The only unique unicorns left (pun intended) are Hope as tribid and Landon as undefined yet-not-monster supernatural. We're barely dealing with Hope's place in the supernatural world (another retcon from The Originals where she went by Hope Marshall, and kept her heritage and powers mostly hidden) and now the show is shoe-horning another unicorn when they haven't.... how do I put it? Fully explored the potential of the one they have.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not really sure how much of a unicorn Hope is in this show. Yes, they've highlighted how unique her situation is, but compared to all these mythical creatures showing up which is basically the focus of the show at this point, it doesn't really stack up.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Diapason Untuned

[Check Sanity]

21 hours ago, ursula said:

It's not abnormal, it's OOC to the established backstory.

Again, OOC. Because we've already seen Hope being extraordinarily close to her extended family while a student in the school with a magical embargo on their proximity to boot. So it's not so much a personal preference for me as a despair at the lack of consistency/continuity. In addition, I liked The Originals!Hope and I was interested in seeing her story continue. (An unpopular opinion at the time, by the way). Legacies!Hope is so different that she might as well be a different character in a different story played by the same actor.

11

Is it though? She lost her parental figures, she was close to her extended family, but that's not the same thing. Alaric sees her every day, unlike her extended family. Also from a production standpoint, they're not going to emphasize characters that aren't on the show. It *is* strange that she seems to be more of a priority to Alaric than the twins at times, but the show isn't ignoring it, it's been acknowledged as a problem. 

* The rest of my post responding to most everything else was eaten by the computer somehow and I'm too pissed by that to try to redo it so I'm just going to wait until this weeks episode to continue the conversation. Cheers til then.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

She lost her parental figures, she was close to her extended family, but that's not the same thing. Alaric sees her every day, unlike her extended family. Also from a production standpoint, they're not going to emphasize characters that aren't on the show.

Watsonianly, she had also lost Klaus in TO-5 in the sense that she wasn't even having regularly conversations with him, and she couldn't see Hayley every day either. But the show made a point of showing (lol) that Hope was video-chatting with Kol and Freya came to visit her in school. As for the Doylist reason, I've never understood that. They don't have to emphasize her extended family to acknowledge that she has an extended family. It's enough not to write Hope's relationship with Alaric as if she has no one else in the whole world but him. 

Quote

It *is* strange that she seems to be more of a priority to Alaric than the twins at times, but the show isn't ignoring it, it's been acknowledged as a problem. 

I think the show is... ignoring it under the umbrella that since it's been acknowledged, that's enough? I don't know how to make this clearer but the show just having it be randomly pointed out without any follow through or coherent explanation is ... cowardly narration.

Edited December 10, 2018 by ursula

[Lady Calypso]

44 minutes ago, ursula said:

I think the show is... ignoring it under the umbrella that since it's been acknowledged, that's enough? I don't know how to make this clearer but the show just having it be randomly pointed out without any follow through or coherent explanation is ... cowardly narration.

I actually think they're building it up toward the season finale. I think Josie and Lizzie have made it clear that Alaric favours Hope over them. Lizzie is definitely the most passionate about it. I think that, with this only being episode six, that they have a plan with this. I think, furthermore, they've been showcasing Alaric in a negative light for a reason. With having clear favourites, turning away Landon and essentially ignoring Rafael's requests, and him running off to deal with the new magical creatures, I do see it being dealt with. I assume once Josie and Lizzie have their big fight that has seemed to be brewing in the background, that whole Saltzman unit is going to explode, likely right in the season finale. It's like them acknowledging Josie's codependency and inability to stand up to Lizzie. It may not be dealt with right this second, but they're very clearly leading up to it. 

I appreciate somewhat of the slow burn, if this is the case, since the other new freshman show Charmed has been going through plots at warp speed. They're definitely not ignoring the issue, which is good. Maybe Plec had enough confidence to assume that this show would do extremely well and that there'd be a guaranteed second season. Maybe that's why she's unafraid to tell the stories like this. With the monsters of the week trend, which is unlike Plec, she probably has a plan with character arcs, especially with the twins, Alaric, and Hope. 

I don't entirely trust Plec, but I think she has an idea going on. It's whether it's executed well that's the bigger question.

Or...I'm completely wrong, Plec is pulling things out of her ass and the show is going to focus on Landon as the super special protagonist. I mean, everyone in that school is special in their own way, but Landon is the new Elena. There's just something about him that they're keeping as a mystery. We know he's connected to the knife (just like we knew Elena had a lookalike named Katherine) but we don't know HOW that came to be or why it's super important. (with Elena/Katherine, we found out they were doppelgangers and had super special stuff about them). I just think (or hope) that they're doing this for a reason.

Now, if the season ends and none of this gets acknowledged, then I'll happily join you about sweeping the Hope vs twins with Alaric thing under the rug. But there are ten episodes left, so there's plenty of time to get to that plot point.

[Gwen-Stacys]

Everyone keeps pointing to how cohesive season 1-2 (and even 3) character plotlines of TVD were without pointing out the fact that JP wasn't the showrunner for those seasons. It was Kevin Williamson, who'd also originally nay-nayed the idea of Damon/Elena ever being a thing. It wasn't until he left at the end of season 3 that we had that big change and the show (inarguably) started to go downhill. So while I like where legacies is going now, I don't have much faith in its' future. (Seasons 1-2ish of the originals was run by Michael Narducci)

Edited December 11, 2018 by Gwen-Stacys

[UNOSEZ]

20 minutes ago, Gwen-Stacys said:

It was Kevin Williamson, who'd also originally nay-nayed the idea of Damon/Elena ever being a thing. It wasn't until he left at the end of season 3 that we had that big change and the show

And Lord bless him for his that.. I do wonder if its him or Plec I have to thank for the torture/sacrifice porn that was Bonnie Bennett's life? 

[ursula]

21 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think Josie and Lizzie have made it clear that Alaric favours Hope over them. Lizzie is definitely the most passionate about it.

And the show constantly undercuts that argument with the emphasis that Lizzie is (crazy? selfish bordering on evil? abusive?) irrational. About the only neutral observer of this was Emma but considering that she's had 2 therapy sessions with Hope and it's never come up (when an inappropriate student/teacher attachment should be a red flag with any school counsellor), I'm putting that under "lip service".

Yeah, that's the phrase I was trying to describe with that wordy paragraph - "lip service". The show's paying lip service to the weirdness without actually depicting it as a problem with/for Hope and/or Alaric. It's telling that their closeness is basically retconned from the last episode.

23 minutes ago, Gwen-Stacys said:

Everyone keeps pointing to how cohesive season 1-2 (and even 3) character plotlines of TVD were without pointing out the fact that JP wasn't the showrunner for those seasons. It was Kevin Williamson, who'd also originally nay-nayed the idea of Damon/Elena ever being a thing. It wasn't until he left at the end of season 3 that we had that big change and the show (inarguably) started to go downhill. So while I like where legacies is going now, I don't have much faith in its' future. (Seasons 1-2ish of the originals was run by Michael Narducci)

Well said. In all fairness, I think Plec actually comes up with some good ideas. She did co-showrun seasons1&2 so I don’t give Williamson all the credit for that. And unless I'm wrong, season 6's Prison World/Gemini Coven arc was all her.  However, Plec gets carried away with her… fannishness? for lack of a better word? and it affects her artistic professionalism. I mean there’s even an io9 article that basically says that:
Vampire Diaries is turning into Damon fanfiction, as written by Damon.

Between her extreme love for Damon/Ian and the almost personal antipathy she had towards Bonnie/Kat Graham, and the fact that at a point, she was basically writing in scenes for shipping "cookies", for lack of a better word, the show suffered with her at the helm.

8 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

And Lord bless him for his that.. I do wonder if its him or Plec I have to thank for the torture/sacrifice porn that was Bonnie Bennett's life? 

Plec loathed Bonnie and suffers from Advanced Misogynoir. But Kevin was in charge in season 1 when Bonnie got her neck eaten through by Damon and ended the scene comforting Elena over her boyfriend, when Bonnie mourned off-camera after her grandmother died and she was given a sympathetic pov but depicted as unreasonable bitch for being uncomfortable with vampires, when Bonnie's "love interests" were people like Ben and Luka that used her and mocked her behind her back. So I don't take Kevin off the hook. I also watched The Secret Circle and the problematic portrayal of Jessica Parker Kennedy's character, and also how he went from TVD where all the witches were black and in service of vampires to TSC where the protagonists were white witches. So...

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

TVD where all the witches were black and in service of vampires to TSC where the protagonists were white witches. So...

Kinda off topic but in watching the last episode of charmed.. I did notice that most of the sarcasm witches.. Were women of color... Not that the elders were all white.. Butb did seem predominantly so.. And the one forbidden magic spell so far was derived from santeria... Wonder if they will play that up... They never did on TVD even though as you point out almost all the witches were woc who existed only in relation to all the white vampires 

[ursula]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

almost all the witches were woc who existed only in relation to all the white vampires 

Well they stopped being Black when they got agency, love interest and generally became interesting on their own right not as a prop for the vampires to use and murder violently: Liv, Luke, Kai, Jo... Then in TO almost all the major witches were not-black. Still can't get over the fact that Vincent made it out of that show alive.

Edited December 11, 2018 by ursula