S02.E09: Empathy

[Efzee]

Honestly, I don't care if Glassman is portrayed realistically or not, but I'm so fed up with him. Like someone else mentioned upthread, he's behaving like a petulant toddler. For the umpteenth time. Sure, it's gotta suck to go from President of hospital/top surgeon (he was a neurosurgeon right, not a neurologist?) to recovering patient, but so far he's been whining and whining and refusing any professional/friendly help and actively denying he's got issues. Seriously, I'd expect better from someone with his intellect and knowledge of the medical situation/consequences.

And I don't know if it's the privileged, white middle-aged+ American thing or the whole (American) car culture that's upsetting him (and those in the anecdotes upthread) so much, but how can he be so utterly irresponsible of (almost) refusing to give up his license? Does he not remember how he fell down just an episode or two ago when he got up? That he's been walking with a cane? That he was having arguments with his dead daughter and refusing treatment to prolong them? That he can't even remember the name of Shaun's brother?! Gosh, that really sounds like someone I'd like to encounter on a busy road! I also think his treating physician has a way too laissez-faire attitude towards him/his recovery.

I've known a couple of people (mostly middle-aged+ men, interestingly) in my social circle, including my father, who've had varying neurological issues and all of them were advised by their neurologist to not drive for at least 6 weeks post treatment/surgery. If you have medical issues that can hinder your driving you have to inform the equivalent of the DMV in my country (it's your responsibility, not the doctor) and your license will be temporarily suspended. Then, when you (and your doctor/physician) feel you've recovered well enough, you need to contact the DMV and get tested and evaluated by an independent doctor, medical specialist and driving instructor before a decision is made whether or not you will get your license back. And all of the people I've known who've been in such a situation, have started that process of their own accord (and some, unfortunately, didn't recover well enough to get their license back). But then the whole process of getting a driver's license is more complicated (involves an average of 40+ 45-minute lessons with a licensed instructor, a theoretical and a practical exam at the average total cost of €2500) in my country compared to the US. Plus, a car is not really seen as a status symbol or means of independence, or at least not to the degree it is in the US.

4 hours ago, janey99 said:

I'm struggling with the pedophile story line, particularly the portrayal of the "urges."  At one point he asks Reznick "you're attracted to men, right?" and then invites her to compare that with what he is experiencing when he is "attracted" to children, however, I'm not sure those two "attractions" are baseline comparable?  Most people who are attracted to socially acceptable potential partners do not walk around so preoccupied with that attraction (and sex generally) that they mutilate their genitals in an attempt to quell the attraction and control their actions.  There must be another more uncontrollable urge in play, and the show's failure to address this was a big fail, especially when, in the immediately prior episode, there was a storyline about a woman who lost her sexual inhibitions as a result of hormones produced by a tumor, and couldn't even stop herself from kissing Shaun as he leaned over her to perform a medical exam.

I came here to see if anyone else thought the same thing I did and I see someone did! I don't know if it's the portrayal of pedophiles in shows/movies that's incorrect or it's really like that for them, but the comparison just doesn't work for me. I don't go around lusting after everyone of the opposite sex or be obsessed with having sex with them/sexual thoughts in general to the degree I can't live a normal life. Hell, I can even step back and decline sex from someone I'm actually really attracted to for any number of reasons.

[possibilities]

The show is very inconsistent about the writing. One episode they had a race to get an organ transplanted before it lost viability. Another episode, they hadn't even done the screening to figure out if the designated recipient would be capable of undergoing the transplant, and there was no urgency to figure out who would get the organ before it was too late. One episode hinges on Claire getting the patient declared a danger to herself, via psych eval. Another, she says it would take months to get psychiatric evaluation for a patient who is a danger to both himself and others, so they let him leave the hospital repeatedly and he kills himself after almost dying of sepsis under their watch. THey're all over the place with both character and plot.

I have heard more than one theory about autism. One is the "no empathy" one, but another is that autistic people are incapacitated by too much empathy, not too little. At least, that's what one spectrum-dweller told me. It's related to the flooding issue: too much sensory and emotional input disables a coherent response in certain situations.

What I really think is that there is a lot of new research, related to the skyrocketing number of autistic people in the population, and that it's probably a complex situation that is not identical for each person.

But Shaun has always seemed to me to have empathy. He just doesn't have all the same ways of processing and responding to things as the  majority of people around him. He values honesty more than ego-fluffing politeness, and he doesn't see the value in certain other social conventions, but we've seen he cares very much about helping patients and relieving suffering and improving quality of life. He doesn't strike me as unable to understand why that matters, even with patients who are much different than himself. The issue to me seems to be more about him reading cues than about caring or being able to understand and respond once he cracks the code of where the suffering is.

Edited November 28, 2018 by possibilities

[aemom]

On 2018-11-27 at 10:05 AM, notcreative enough said:

That soccer player was too damn old to run into a street after a ball. A seven year old maybe but he looked like a grown ass man. 

I figure that he was about 14 years old. Way too old.

 

On 2018-11-26 at 11:07 PM, Annber03 said:

I knew that guy was gonna kill himself. Still winced when he fell forward in front of that bus at the end anyway.

Me too. But it was still shocking when it happened. I really don't understand why they couldn't do a psychiatric hold on him. He was very clearly a danger to himself. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by AEMom
Typo

[Emma9]

On November 26, 2018 at 11:21 PM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

I was conflicted about Claire and Morgan's patient. It stems from my inability to understand how you could desire the underage, let alone the ones in your family. I can't empathize because the course of his dilemma is far beyond me reach 

I have difficulty understanding it from the other direction. I'm grey-ace. The notion that it's what you instinctively desire that defines you rather than what you choose to do about it is weird to me and always has been, although obviously it's less distressing to be defined by a lack of desire rather than an abhorrent one.

If the patient were attracted to adult women, but never met any who'd consensually have sex with him, would he be a rapist waiting to happen? What was said upthread about pedophiles being hardwired in a way that can't be fixed is something I've read before, but does that also mean they have lessened impulse control?

Or is it all about the intrusive thoughts aspect? I had a brief but distressing spell of that in my teens, albeit a different sort, and it was immensely frustrating because of the 'don't think about an elephant' paradox. The more I beat myself up over what I was dwelling on, the more brainspace it took up. Breaking that cycle was the only thing that made it stop.

Anyhow, agreed with most here that the guy should've been on a psych hold. Or, analogous to the FGM storyline from earlier in the season, an ethics panel might have found that he had the right to decide what happened to his genitals, 'healthy' or not, before the complications caused by waiting made it impossible.

[vavera4ka]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 8:20 AM, catrice2 said:

 

Let's face it I'm very shallow at this point I don't care who they put Melendez with. I just want a shirtless scene. I'm sure I missed some last year because I wasn't watching this show until the end but I'm here for it especially now that Jared is gone 

Is there an extra spot at your shallow table? lol I wanna see that tattoo again

Though idk, I still want him with Claire. Yes, like someone in previous episode thread said, Claire is too good for Melendez, but Claire is too amazing. She's too good for about 99% of men: real or fictional lol. So might as well be a talented, hot, suborn (did I mention hot?) doctor. Though Nicholas seems to be the type of actor who has chemistry with everyone. lol So I can see Melendez hook up working with other characters too... 

[Ellacentz]

Claire and Melendez will always be the perfect match..apart from the fact that they have this amazing chemistry..being with Melendez will help her grow and he will always be there to guild her.. After all helping one grow is also part of a good relationship..lim and Melendez are equals so there's nothing there to see and they have this brother and sister vibe no chemistry whatsoever..infact lim looks like an elder sister to Melendez..lim and Melendez are better of as rivals.making them romantically involved will destroy their friendship..some people are meant to be just friends..

Edited November 29, 2018 by Ellacentz

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

3 hours ago, Emma9 said:

I have difficulty understanding it from the other direction. I'm grey-ace. The notion that it's what you instinctively desire that defines you rather than what you choose to do about it is weird to me and always has been, although obviously it's less distressing to be defined by a lack of desire rather than an abhorrent one.

If the patient were attracted to adult women, but never met any who'd consensually have sex with him, would he be a rapist waiting to happen? What was said upthread about pedophiles being hardwired in a way that can't be fixed is something I've read before, but does that also mean they have lessened impulse control?

Or is it all about the intrusive thoughts aspect? I had a brief but distressing spell of that in my teens, albeit a different sort, and it was immensely frustrating because of the 'don't think about an elephant' paradox. The more I beat myself up over what I was dwelling on, the more brainspace it took up. Breaking that cycle was the only thing that made it stop.

Anyhow, agreed with most here that the guy should've been on a psych hold. Or, analogous to the FGM storyline from earlier in the season, an ethics panel might have found that he had the right to decide what happened to his genitals, 'healthy' or not, before the complications caused by waiting made it impossible.

You are comparing apples to oranges. A sexual attraction of a peer is not the same as sexual attraction to a minor.

That is that is the hurdle I can't get over. If we are talking about other impulses, I would of course take into consideration the person's attempt to curb it. As it stands, the urge itself is what I cannot reconcile with. 

Also one action doesn't define a person. It is a cumulation of everything they do and are the define them. I couldn't define this guy on his urges anymore than I could his attempt to curb it.

I am not defining him as a person. It is nice that he wants to do something about the urges, however it doesn't make the urge anymore understandable or acceptable or whatever you think I should feel besides empathy. 

[possibilities]

On 11/27/2018 at 11:01 PM, statsgirl said:

That was Claire's suggestion, to look for alternate treatments but Reznick argued against it saying that those treatments don't work.  Yet another reason why no one should listen to a surgeon's opinion of other areas of medicine. Reznick was wrong and I hate that the show's writers didn't challenge it.

That article is really interesting. I think there is a cultural desire to sift people into good/bad and that it's a combination of laziness and ego that drives it. The treatment program described sounds like it's actually very effective, and could be used in a lot of situations where, instead, we just declare the person irredeemable and write them off with a flourish of moral self-satisfaction.

The show could be more actually really very interesting, and also do more good, by actually using truth, instead of cooking up BS just to cook up an easy plot.

[Emma9]

2 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

As it stands, the urge itself is what I cannot reconcile with.

That's absolutely fair, and more likely the majority opinion, I'm sure. I wasn't trying to argue you out of your viewpoint, just stating that my own wiring (which I did not choose and could not change) makes it difficult for me personally to 'get' on a gut level, since sexual attraction of any type is an issue I can only understand from, to follow the theme of the episode, an analytical basis rather than an emotional one.

The article that statsgirl linked to is interesting, although the study apparently only looked at those who have offended, a group which I cannot reconcile any sympathy for. You say elsewhere in your post that "one action doesn't define a person", but in my view it's less about the action than having the capacity to commit that action. If someone can choose to cause that level of harm to a child, whether it's sexual in nature or motivation or not, that says something much more intrinsic about them than what goes on in their own head.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Emma9

[rmontro]

On 11/28/2018 at 1:55 PM, Efzee said:

Honestly, I don't care if Glassman is portrayed realistically or not, but I'm so fed up with him. Like someone else mentioned upthread, he's behaving like a petulant toddler. For the umpteenth time. Sure, it's gotta suck to go from President of hospital/top surgeon (he was a neurosurgeon right, not a neurologist?) to recovering patient, but so far he's been whining and whining and refusing any professional/friendly help and actively denying he's got issues. Seriously, I'd expect better from someone with his intellect and knowledge of the medical situation/consequences.

 

That's all true, but Glassman was annoying even before he got the brain tumor.  I guess the idea behind the storyline is that he's gone from being the somewhat overbearing caretaker of Shaun, to being cared for himself by Shaun, who is being somewhat overbearing in his role as caretaker.

On 11/28/2018 at 1:55 PM, Efzee said:

I don't know if it's the portrayal of pedophiles in shows/movies that's incorrect or it's really like that for them, but the comparison just doesn't work for me. I don't go around lusting after everyone of the opposite sex or be obsessed with having sex with them/sexual thoughts in general to the degree I can't live a normal life. Hell, I can even step back and decline sex from someone I'm actually really attracted to for any number of reasons.

We don't relate (and don't want to relate) to pedophiles' desires.  But I can and do believe that they probably can't help what they are attracted to.  Those of us with acceptable attractions however, we have a release for those desires.  If not now, we can at least hope for it in the future.  The patient in the story could NEVER have any release of his desires, and I think that's probably a more formidable obstacle than people are giving credit to here. 

You and I can decline sex from someone we are attracted to, but the patient had not acted on any of his impulses either (or so we were told).  But he was willing to self mutilate or end his life to put an end to his desires.  That could indicate that he had other psychiatric problems (and as has been pointed out, the staff really dropped the ball not getting an evaluation for him).  If he knew that he couldn't control his desires much longer, does that make his suicide a heroic act (in that he is sparing a future victim)?

[ForReal]

On 11/28/2018 at 10:55 AM, Efzee said:

I also think his treating physician has a way too laissez-faire attitude towards him/his recovery.

Wasn't there some reference to the fact that he chose her because she had a troubled background and he'd be able to call the shots a little easier?

[Trini]

5 hours ago, ForReal said:

Wasn't there some reference to the fact that he chose her because she had a troubled background and he'd be able to call the shots a little easier?

Yeah, he choose her assuming that their previous (professional) relationship would make it easier for him to deal with. I'm not sure if that's necessarily influencing her treatment from her side, though.

[bros402]

On 11/28/2018 at 9:07 AM, luvapickle said:

My brothers taught me how to drive, then I took the driving test. I am not so sure Shaun would "take" to someone unknown teaching him.

A driver rehab program would have an occupational therapist teaching him how to drive - another medical professional. Shaun would probably take it well - better than Lea freaking out on him, at least.

[Pink-n-Green]

On 11/26/2018 at 11:07 PM, Annber03 said:

I knew that guy was gonna kill himself. Still winced when he fell forward in front of that bus at the end anyway.

For a second, it reminded me of the scene in Mean Girls stepped in front of a moving bus but she actually ended up okay.  Didn't work out here, though.

Also, is there anyone else who thought Leia could have given up the passenger seat to the elderly gentleman with brain cancer?

On 11/26/2018 at 11:21 PM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Andrew is such an asshole. I hope Lim and Melendez join forces against him. 

I kind of agree with you, but I can't bring myself to hate Andrews.  He seems like a compassionate doctor to the patients; it's just the interpersonal work relationships he needs to work on!

On 11/27/2018 at 12:23 AM, preeya said:

Who was the actor playing testicle guy? I could swear he's a Ritter. Perhaps John's son?

Testicle guy?!?!?!?!?  LOL; love it!!

[Pink-n-Green]

On 11/28/2018 at 1:55 PM, Efzee said:

If you have medical issues that can hinder your driving you have to inform the equivalent of the DMV in my country (it's your responsibility, not the doctor) and your license will be temporarily suspended.

Unfortunately, we're not big on personal responsibility here.

[Driad]

4 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Also, is there anyone else who thought Leia could have given up the passenger seat to the elderly gentleman with brain cancer?

I thought she should have, but someone here wondered if California requires the licensed driver to sit in front when a person with a learner's permit is driving.  Another of many plot holes that could have been fixed with a quick line from one of the characters.

Also, Lea could have driven, and let Shaun sit in back.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Driad

[TurtlePower]

On 11/28/2018 at 2:00 AM, doctor destiny said:

Okay I really liked the episode.  Nice balance of humor and subtle comedy.  I got that the writing team were subtly trying to show that in fact Shaun does have a lot of empathy.  It's a complete canard that autistic people don't.  In fact it's pretty insulting.  This idea was promulgated by Simon Baron-Cohen (Sasha's cousin) a researcher at Cambridge University.  A lot of people in the autism community believe that Baron-Cohen has been detrimental to the cause with his extreme male brain theory (women have autism too and it's definitely not that) and his empathy-deficit theory.  Many autistics like my lovely children are deeply empathetic to the point where it harms them.  They many not have as good cognitive empathy (understanding what you might think though YMMV) but caring?  Baron-Cohen does auties a big disservice here.  So while it's great to see Shaun's empathy it should never have been in question in the first place.  

Completely agree, and I'm sure there are many people out there walking around misdiagnosed because some professionals are still stuck in this way of thinking. "You have empathy, you can't be autistic." My own diagnosis was missed for a long time because I didn't fit the "mold", plus I'm female. 

I had mixed feelings on Lea teaching Shaun to drive. She was definitely more likable. I love that she helped him make parallels to his work, which I feel like most driving instructors wouldn't know how to do for Shaun, but he needs some structure. My own drivers ed experience was pretty difficult and I failed the test 3 times because I took things literally--take the next left meant I turned into someone's driveway or a parking lot, which was the actual next left. I'd also freak out in traffic and fail to parallel park if anyone was waiting behind me (to this day I will walk a mile versus park in traffic). It'll be interesting to see how Shaun progresses with his driving. 

[bros402]

13 hours ago, TurtlePower said:

Completely agree, and I'm sure there are many people out there walking around misdiagnosed because some professionals are still stuck in this way of thinking. "You have empathy, you can't be autistic." My own diagnosis was missed for a long time because I didn't fit the "mold", plus I'm female. 

I had mixed feelings on Lea teaching Shaun to drive. She was definitely more likable. I love that she helped him make parallels to his work, which I feel like most driving instructors wouldn't know how to do for Shaun, but he needs some structure. My own drivers ed experience was pretty difficult and I failed the test 3 times because I took things literally--take the next left meant I turned into someone's driveway or a parking lot, which was the actual next left. I'd also freak out in traffic and fail to parallel park if anyone was waiting behind me (to this day I will walk a mile versus park in traffic). It'll be interesting to see how Shaun progresses with his driving. 

I did driving lessons with an occupational therapist - it helped a lot, but in the end, they recommended I not take the test as my other disabilities impacted my performance too much - I had to look at the turn signal lever in order to hit it, I had issues telling how far away things were, stuff like that

[Barb1959]

This show really got to me.  I had to cut it off mid way thru.  I never have to do that.

[Annber03]

12 minutes ago, Barb1959 said:

This show really got to me.  I had to cut it off mid way thru.  I never have to do that.

How so (if the reason is something you feel comfortable sharing, that is)?

[Trini]

On 11/30/2018 at 8:09 AM, Pink-n-Green said:

For a second, it reminded me of the scene in Mean Girls stepped in front of a moving bus but she actually ended up okay.  Didn't work out here, though.

I mean, after "OH no!", my first thought was "well, he's right in in front of a hospital, so..." But then they said he died.

[StevedeMena]

On 11/26/2018 at 8:21 PM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Andrew is such an asshole. I hope Lim and Melendez join forces against him. 

I was conflicted about Claire and Morgan's patient. It stems from my inability to understand how you could desire the underage, let alone the ones in your family. I can't empathize because the course of his dilemma is far beyond me reach 

Pedophilia isn’t a “choice” or “desire”. It’s a psychiatric disorder with no known cure. 

[Efzee]

On 29-11-2018 at 11:59 PM, rmontro said:

We don't relate (and don't want to relate) to pedophiles' desires.  But I can and do believe that they probably can't help what they are attracted to.  Those of us with acceptable attractions however, we have a release for those desires.  If not now, we can at least hope for it in the future.  The patient in the story could NEVER have any release of his desires, and I think that's probably a more formidable obstacle than people are giving credit to here. 

You and I can decline sex from someone we are attracted to, but the patient had not acted on any of his impulses either (or so we were told).  But he was willing to self mutilate or end his life to put an end to his desires.  That could indicate that he had other psychiatric problems (and as has been pointed out, the staff really dropped the ball not getting an evaluation for him).  If he knew that he couldn't control his desires much longer, does that make his suicide a heroic act (in that he is sparing a future victim)?

But that would imply that every virgin in/past puberty would go around being uncontrollably attracted to the opposite/same sex. And while I know teenagers have lots of hormones running rampant inside of them, the overwhelming majority of them refrain from forcing themselves onto/raping someone else just fine. The whole uncontrollable urge is something I have trouble understanding. This guy for example said he couldn't be around his sister's family since she had children, which defnitely implies he's attracted to any child regardless of age (presumably somewhere past toddler age and before t(w)een), sex, genetic/social relation or appearance. To compare it to a person with a "normal" (i.e. non-pedophile) sexual orientation if that's the correct term to use, would be that, for example, I couldn't possibly spend time with my sister or best friend after they got romantically involved with a man because I would have uncontrollable sexual thoughts and urges about that man despite him being my (future) brother-in-law or my best friend's partner (who, usually, is off-limits in most societies/cultures), all because he is a man. Doesn't matter how old he is (as long as he's an adult), what he looks like, what his personality is like and so on. And that's not how sexual attraction works for me or people I know.

Also, the patient made a very important distinction by saying (or correcting himself?) that he "never touched a child" after claiming to not act on his thoughts/urges, which to me implied that he did have a way to get sexual release either by using his thougths/imagination or, sadly, child pron (not sure about censoring).

[Barb1959]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 3:37 PM, Annber03 said:

How so (if the reason is something you feel comfortable sharing, that is)?

No...I had a family member that ended up in jail over something like this.  It was a devastated circumstance and it brought back bad memories.  

[Annber03]

Ah, okay. 

That's tough. I'm sorry you had to deal with that.