Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

[peachmangosteen]

I'm okay with Michael being mostly uninterested in Liz paying for the lie. He and Liz never had much contact in the first place, so I'm not sure him ripping into her would have much impact.

 

I agree for these reasons and also because, and I've mentioned this before, Michael forgave Sonny for murdering his father, so if he was up in arms over this he would be at a level of SLS that is just astronomical.

[dubbel zout]

Yeah, I certainly don't think that Sam and Jason should trust Liz, but Sam came, unwanted, into Liz's house, and then decided to bash Liz, and accuse her of doing something that she didn't do, so Liz is allowed to defend herself.

 

It would help her case if she didn't say Sam "stole" Jason from her. That's all on Liz. And considering how she lied about Jason's identity, it's not that much of a stretch that she'd lie about this. She let her kids get attached to Jason knowing he might not like the lie, so her protestations that she'd never put her kids in danger rings a bit weak to me. Sorry, Liz. You can't really be surprised that Sam thinks you're at fault. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by dubbel zout

[MissE]

It would help her case if she didn't say Sam "stole" Jason from her. That's all on Liz. And considering how she lied about Jason's identity, it's not that much of a stretch that she'd lie about this. She let her kids get attached to Jason knowing he might not like the lie, so her protestations that she'd never put her kids in danger rings a bit weak to me. Sorry, Liz. You can't really be surprised that Sam thinks you're at fault. 

There's a big difference in Liz getting them attached to "Jake" knowing he was Jason, and basically terrorizing Jake, and putting them in danger. 

[dubbel zout]

My point was that it's not wrong for Sam to think Liz set things up. How does she know where Liz draws the line? Liz has done some stuff.

[JaneDigby]

The worst thing that has ever happened to the character named Liz is the resurrection of PlotPointJake. 

[dubbel zout]

The worst thing that has happened to all of us is the resurrection of PlotPointJake. I hated how he was killed off, but I hate even more what his return is doing to the show.

[Oracle42]

I think Franco, his bullshit toomah redemption and his presence as a regular cast member is worse than Jake's return. But Jake's return was part of the one of the worst stories this show has ever done, so...

Edited January 26, 2016 by Oracle42

[HeatLifer]

Jake's return might have been acceptable if it had actually been written as a heartwarming and eye opening moment for Liz. It should have made her tell Jason the truth straight up, it should have made her feel guilty, it should have made her want to strangle Helena, it should have made her focus on her sons. But nope. We can't have Liz written like a human, can we? She and her son have to be written deeper and deeper in deep holes while Psycho music plays in the background.

This whole story, at the end of the day, hasn't been fair to Liz or her fans. I will forever think it went too far, regardless of whether some think the other characters never screamed at her enough and so she "skated."

[JaneDigby]

I've mentioned in another thread that I'm watching 2006/2007 GH to try to locate my give-a-shit about Sam. It's also letting me see the beginnings of PlotPointJake.

 

Kudos to the poster who theorized that Liz seeks out/ is vulnerable to Jason when her self-esteem is low because that's what I saw. Liz was feeling vulnerable, scared, upset and worthless about the Lucky situation and went to see Jason. (Because Jasus heals, ya'll.) I didn't see a big passion that was finally consummated. I saw two very hurt people who hit the sheets. YMMV. I'm still amazed at the Trash Lucky Festival that was GH back then. He's a drug addict. His father has no time for him. He has to refer to Jason as "heroic." Just yuck. Double-yuck. I probably just missed the scenes where Lucky had to thank Jason for being Jason. 

 

Please, soap overlords, rekill PlotPointJake and set Liz (and me) free from this endless storyline of stupid. 10 years is enough. Just let me enjoy RH's awesome complexion in peace. 

[LeftPhalange]

Still can't believe Ron had the audacity to resurrect DNAJ and then not explain how he's still alive or whose organ Joss got.

[Jazzy24]

Still can't believe Ron had the audacity to resurrect DNAJ and then not explain how he's still alive or whose organ Joss got.

Jake was brought back to even the playing field since Sam had Jason's kid.

Ron didn't care about the whys or how it didn't make sense.

[JaneDigby]

Jake was brought back to even the playing field since Sam had Jason's kid.

Ron didn't care about the whys or how it didn't make sense.

 

Or was it, as Tony Geary claims, to "redeem" Luke? I don't know. Either way the kid has to go. 

[JaneDigby]

I refuse to believe that PlotPoint is Jake. Jake had awesome expressions. (Thanks Serial Drama, gals, wherever you are!)

 

[ulkis]

Or was it, as Tony Geary claims, to "redeem" Luke? I don't know. Either way the kid has to go. 

 

It was pretty much just because Ron wanted something major to come out of the last Spencer "adventure". 

[LeftPhalange]

LMAO look at Town Pariah Liez in action.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-VjojqYNkM

[UYI]

Or was it, as Tony Geary claims, to "redeem" Luke? I don't know. Either way the kid has to go. 

 

I'm guessing a combination of both. Each reason makes sense to me. 

[JaneDigby]

Since PlotPoint gives me the willies every single time he's on screen, I need a Liz palate cleanser.

 

Liz calling out idiocy:

 

Not being impressed by their lame arguments to the contrary

 

Ric is obviously thinking of Liz here

 

Liz with kids who don't give me nightmares (plus Greg Vaughan!)

 

There, I feel better. Anyone want to engage in a spirited debate of Liz/Ric vs Liz/Lucky?

[KerleyQ]

That last picture, between BH and GV, it's almost an unfair level of pretty.  Which reminds me, I uber-loathed that scene of Liz saying that Nik was the first time she actually enjoyed sex (or some such shit).  Please.  We all saw how hot the Liz/Lucky honeymoon scenes were between BH and GV.  And, honestly, before I eventually stabbed my eyes with a fork to stop seeing the Niz sex, Liz mostly looked like she was completely disgusted with herself and Nik.  It was one of the reasons I just could not understand that story line.  

 

Also, GV's Lucky was always so ovary-achingly cute with those kids.  

[dubbel zout]

I really miss "Bitch, please" Cameron. He was a gem.

 

I uber-loathed that scene of Liz saying that Nik was the first time she actually enjoyed sex (or some such shit).  Please.

 

We all know that Nik is the second-most selfish lover in Port Charles. (Sonny, of course, being number one.) I can only think someone threw in that line to try to explain why Nik and Liz would hook up at that point. They could have worked, but not at the expense of cuckolding Lucky. Ugh. That story was so bad.

Edited January 24, 2016 by dubbel zout

[JaneDigby]

That last picture, between BH and GV, it's almost an unfair level of pretty.  Which reminds me, I uber-loathed that scene of Liz saying that Nik was the first time she actually enjoyed sex (or some such shit).  Please.  We all saw how hot the Liz/Lucky honeymoon scenes were between BH and GV.  And, honestly, before I eventually stabbed my eyes with a fork to stop seeing the Niz sex, Liz mostly looked like she was completely disgusted with herself and Nik.  It was one of the reasons I just could not understand that story line.  

 

Also, GV's Lucky was always so ovary-achingly cute with those kids.  

 

Say what one will about the current awfulness of Liz's storyline I actually think the Lucky/Liz/Nik story was 1 billion times worst. Maybe 2 billion times. TC was so bloated at the time that every scene (on YT) of Liz/Nik sharing the proverbial afterglow he has the sheet up to his chin. That's passion, baby. Nik is another character this show has a long track record of not know what to do with but throwing him into the L&L story was wretched. Liz/Nik for me is what Carly/Franco is for Carly fans. 

 

I freely admit to being vaguely irrational when it comes to the visual charms of Greg Vaughan. The crap I waded through on Days for his sake was nearly equal to the crap I waded through on GH for Stephen Nichol's sake. At least GV got to wear a priest collar on Days and look hotly holy and hotly unavailable. 

[KerleyQ]

Say what one will about the current awfulness of Liz's storyline I actually think the Lucky/Liz/Nik story was 1 billion times worst. Maybe 2 billion times. TC was so bloated at the time that every scene (on YT) of Liz/Nik sharing the proverbial afterglow he has the sheet up to his chin. That's passion, baby. Nik is another character this show has a long track record of not know what to do with but throwing him into the L&L story was wretched. Liz/Nik for me is what Carly/Franco is for Carly fans. 

 

I freely admit to being vaguely irrational when it comes to the visual charms of Greg Vaughan. The crap I waded through on Days for his sake was nearly equal to the crap I waded through on GH for Stephen Nichol's sake. At least GV got to wear a priest collar on Days and look hotly holy and hotly unavailable. 

 

I'm with you on the visual charms of GV.  Even when I was pissed at his Lucky, I couldn't totally hate him, especially when we had scenes of him with the kids.  

[peachmangosteen]

The writing has really sucked in terms of Liz's POV, and I think one of the main reason's its been so uneven, is instead of letting the fallout for Liz be her realizing how much she sacrificed of herself for Jason, and what this lie cost her outside of Jason ...

 

This would've been great, but she'd have to have actually lost something outside of Jason for it to work. As it is, she has lost nothing else (hell she's barely lost Jason since all her scenes still involve him) so there's really no reason for her to have a big realization. But yea that would've been the way to go. 

 

I just literally can not comprehend why they did this story if it was going to result in no real consequences for Liz or at the very least some growth or change for her. All for this for a stupid as fuck triangle? We all know Jason/Sam in endgame so it's pointless. All it manages to do is make all 3 characters look bad and/or boring. Such terrible storytelling.

[MissE]

This would've been great, but she'd have to have actually lost something outside of Jason for it to work. As it is, she has lost nothing else (hell she's barely lost Jason since all her scenes still involve him) so there's really no reason for her to have a big realization. But yea that would've been the way to go. 

 

I just literally can not comprehend why they did this story if it was going to result in no real consequences for Liz or at the very least some growth or change for her. All for this for a stupid as fuck triangle? We all know Jason/Sam in endgame so it's pointless. All it manages to do is make all 3 characters look bad and/or boring. Such terrible storytelling.

What else could she have lost outside Jason though? 

 

I definitely agree thought that this story was pointless. Especially if they aren't going to truly let Liz grow, and get over Jason. This triangle has never done any of the characters any favors, but I feel like Liz has always suffered the most from it because Jason will always go back to Sam. Liz is just pulled in, when they want Jasam to have a third party. Even for this story, if they wanted Liz and Jake/Jason together, they should have just had Liz find out he was Jason when everybody else did. There was enough drama there without destroying her as a character.

 

I don't know though, I wish I could say that I thought that this would be the last go around of this god awful triangle, but I just don't think it is. I'm sure the next time Liz starts seeing someone else, they will derail that relationship and bring her back into Jason's orbit like they always do.

[JaneDigby]

I just literally can not comprehend why they did this story if it was going to result in no real consequences for Liz or at the very least some growth or change for her. All for this for a stupid as fuck triangle? We all know Jason/Sam in endgame so it's pointless. All it manages to do is make all 3 characters look bad and/or boring. Such terrible storytelling.

 

I'll take "stupid soaps" for $1,000, Alex. They told it because they're stupid so they think we're stupid. The only way to generate interest in Jason & Sam, in their minds, is by retreading a story that was told-out in 2008. No one in this story looks good. No one has grown. Yes, it's nice to see Sam not begging Jason but she still has to spend way too much time reminding everyone that he is her husband and wistfully hoping he will remember her. Because, you know, there's no way he'd fall in love with her just for being herself. Nope. He's gotta remember. This isn't a Sam story. It's not a Liz story. It's a Jason story. 

[dubbel zout]

But as peachmangosteen pointed out, she's barely lost Jason. They'll always be linked because of Jake, and they're too chicken to really lay it on the line with him that they will not be living together as a family. They are not presenting a united front with that. And Jason being around all the time also undercuts things. I don't expect him to ignore Jake's issues, but I can understand why Jake is confused about his parents.

 

It's a Jason story.

 

If it's not all about Sonny, it's all about Jason. BW needs to step it up acting-wise, IMO. Even if he doesn't know what's going to happen, I wish he'd start to give Jason some sort of character. Right now he's just someone who has the name Jason Morgan. I get that Jason doesn't know his history, but he's been awake long enough to form some sort of current personality.

Edited January 26, 2016 by dubbel zout

[MissE]

But as peachmangosteen pointed out, she's barely lost Jason. They'll always be linked because of Jake, and they're too chicken to really lay it on the line with him that they will not be living together as a family. They are not presenting a united front with that. And Jason being around all the time also undercuts things. I don't expect him to ignore Jake's issues, but I can understand why Jake is confused about his parents.

 

 

If it's not all about Sonny, it's all about Jason. BW needs to step it up acting-wise, IMO. Even if he doesn't know what's going to happen, I wish he'd start to give Jason some sort of character. Right now he's just someone who has the name Jason Morgan. I get that Jason doesn't know his history, but he's been awake long enough to form some sort of current personality.

Except for that one day, I think Liz has done a good job with letting Jake know that Jason isn't staying with them anymore. Just last week, she made it clear to him that Jason wasn't living with them anymore, and that they weren't getting married. Jason, IMO, is the one that has confused Jake more than anyone since the break up. He's the one insisting that he stay over at the house, even though Liz said no, and he's the one that insisted that they stay at the MC together. Every time Liz brings up that this is making it harder for Jake, he shuts her down. Jason always does this, he loves to lead Liz on, and then play dumb when she gets confused about his mixed signals, he's doing the same thing to Jake now. 

[dubbel zout]

Like I wrote, they aren't presenting a united front. Liz needs to lay down the law with Jason on this. I fault her for it as much as him. They are both Jake's parents.

[WendyCR72]

Liz is the one that told Jake "anything can happen" when he asked about Jason and Liz reuniting. Liz should have put her wounded pride aside and told the kid it wasn't happening. Jason is a wishy-washy tool, but Liz is also leading her son on and encouraging his disturbing behavior albeit unknowingly.

 

As said above, Liz and Jason need to be on the same page.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Liz is the one that told Jake "anything can happen" when he asked about Jason and Liz reuniting. Liz should have put her wounded pride aside and told the kid it wasn't happening. Jason is a wishy-washy tool, but Liz is also leading her son on and encouraging his disturbing behavior albeit unknowingly.

And then the next scene they had together, Liz told Jake that she and Jason weren't getting married and that Jason wasn't going to come back and live in their home.  I blame it on the hacks. They can't make up their fucking minds. They want it both ways: that Liz has accepted it is over, and having her be delusional, making smug faces and leading Jake on.

[MissE]

Liz is the one that told Jake "anything can happen" when he asked about Jason and Liz reuniting. Liz should have put her wounded pride aside and told the kid it wasn't happening. Jason is a wishy-washy tool, but Liz is also leading her son on and encouraging his disturbing behavior albeit unknowingly.

 

As said above, Liz and Jason need to be on the same page.

Well Friday, Liz told Jake that Jason wasn't coming back, and they weren't getting married.

 

They do need to be a united front, but Jason basically refuses to listen to her.

[peachmangosteen]

They want it both ways ...

 

Yep. They always do this with Liz imo. I'm beating a dead horse with this but I'm saying it again, they need to shit or get off the pot already vis a vis Liz being a Manipulative Miss or Adorable Angel. This bullshit of her being one thing one minute and the other the next was tiresome about 5 years ago.

[yowsah1]

Say what one will about the current awfulness of Liz's storyline I actually think the Lucky/Liz/Nik story was 1 billion times worst.

 

I give this hideous storyline the prize for "absolute worst" because in this one, not content with completely trashing Liz at every turn, the sick fucks who write this garbage have decided to trash her child as well.

 

TRASHING.

A.

CHILD.

 

Jumping Jaysus, not even RC sunk that low.

[ulkis]

I give this hideous storyline the prize for "absolute worst" because in this one, not content with completely trashing Liz at every turn, the sick fucks who write this garbage have decided to trash her child as well.

TRASHING.

A.

CHILD.

Jumping Jaysus, not even RC sunk that low.

He has Spencer actually try to kill another child (Cam), definitely had the writers take dibs at Cam, Josslyn was also kind of evil, and had a weird creepy child love quartet. He was worse with the kids, imo.

[jsbt]

Ron always took his passive aggression out on various characters in the later years, including ones he usually liked if his plot warranted the need. He would at least make them 'wrong' in some way to try to 'balance the scales'. (Michael, last February)

 

It was worse with others that Ron actually didn't like, and I thought it was gross how yeah, he seemed to treat little wooden Cameron like any other adult character he didn't care for. Sure, this Cam is boring but what did the kid do other than not be Spencer? He's nine!

[LeftPhalange]

Sure, this Cam is boring but what did the kid do other than not be Spencer? He's nine!

 

The other two who aren't DNAJ can't be used for Victimized Liez vs Propped Saint Sam purposes so who cares what happens to them. 

[peachmangosteen]

It always seems like Liz is just the go to whipping girl for this show.

 

I can think of some reasons for this tbh. For one, Liz has had so many popular pairings that I think they feel they can fuck over one of them to promote another coupling and then easily put her back with one of her other guys or a new guy and still generate a lot of fan support for it. Also, from what I've seen online I think out of all the characters/actresses, Liz/BH has the most enduring fans who will support and promote her no matter what she does/who she's with so the writers think, 'Hey, let's use Liz as a tool in this other story because it's easy and her fans will always be there anyway.'

[UYI]

In a way, Liz is this show's version of Taylor Swift--the fans who love her, REALLY love her, and the ones who hate her, REALLY hate her (me personally? I'm divided on both of them). And I guess that makes Sam Katy Perry, big boobs and all. :P 

[mybabyaidan]

In a way, Liz is this show's version of Taylor Swift--the fans who love her, REALLY love her, and the ones who hate her, REALLY hate her (me personally? I'm divided on both of them). And I guess that makes Sam Katy Perry, big boobs and all. :P 

 

That might be the MEANEST thing anyone has ever said about Sam, and I have been hearing some pretty bad stuff since 2004.  LOL.

Edited February 12, 2016 by mybabyaidan

[HeatLifer]

That's what I mean about propping - Show appearing to make Liz a shell with a broken life, while beating us over the head with the Great JaSam Love.

This is why I want Liz away from JaSam and part of the reason why I didn't want Jake back. Liz has been on the show how long? And STILL doesn't have a guy that loves only HER and she only loves HIM and that's, for the most part, undebatable? How is she pretty much the sole longtime character in this boat? It's crazy. I'm repetitive about this bc it's stupid to me. She shouldn't be nearing 20 years on this show and have no real love interest that's hers.

[ulkis]

Lucky! They just won't let him on the effing screen. Sigh.

[HeatLifer]

Lucky! They just won't let him on the effing screen. Sigh.

Girl, don't even get me started. It should have been him. But they TRASHED Lucky and that relationship. First in the name of Jason and Liason (look how well that turned out, RME) then with Liz and NIK. Just....ugh.

[LeftPhalange]

If Lucky showed interest in Liez again she'd just get bored after awhile and decide she's in love with Nik or Ric again. And of course none of those three men would stand a chance if Jason should ever find himself single and ready to mingle. They've made her so fickle that it would take a lot for me to believe she's capable of being happy and satisfied with one man for a significant period of time. 

[HeatLifer]

They've made her so fickle

And that to me is a problem and was never an original character trait.

[Oracle42]

I'm always going to be rooting for L&L2. They were the reason I got sucked in on a regular basis

[HeatLifer]

I'm always going to be rooting for L&L2. They were the reason I got sucked in on a regular basis

They were beautiful.

[Oracle42]

And that to me is a problem and was never an original character trait.

 

At this point, I'd say that was self-sabatoging fear of abandonement. And that should've been the story coming out of this - not blowing up her stupid house. Liz dealing with her family coming back to PC and dealing with whatever loneliness and fear led her to pull this gross crap with Jakeson

I mean, she actively tried to convince an amnesiac that no one missed him or was looking for him. She's not a cruel person so that behavior needs an explanation

Edited February 13, 2016 by Oracle42

[HeatLifer]

At this point, I'd say that was self-sabatoging fear of abandonement. And that should've been the story coming out of this - not blowing up her stupid house. Liz dealing with her family coming back to PC and dealing with whatever loneliness and fear led her to pull this gross crap with Jakeson

I mean, she actively tried to convince an amnesiac that no one missed him or was looking for him. She's not a cruel person so that behavior needs an explanation

I don't know how the writers can explain something that I think was OOC. It would just be BS excuses.

[Oracle42]

I think much of what RC wrote was inexcusable -except Undead!AJ and Undead!Robin - but unless I get my reset (pleasepleaseplease!!) all of RC's crap is canon

And I really think Liz has an actual basis for those specific kind of issues given her family, Lucky's "death", Emily's death and most of her previous relationships

Edited February 13, 2016 by Oracle42

[HeatLifer]

I think much of what RC wrote was inexcusable -except Undead!AJ and Robin - but unless I get my reset (pleasepleaseplease!!) all of RC's crap is cannon

And I really think Liz has an actual basis for those specific kind of issues given her family, Lucky's "death", Emily's death and most of her previous relationships

Of course it's canon. Unfortunately everything that is shown on-screen is canon, lol. Still doesn't mean it makes sense and I personally can't discuss it because it just gives the writers what they want: for viewers to believe everything they write is somehow true to the character and it "makes sense, we swear!" They twist these characters and expect viewers to just accept it. Edited February 12, 2016 by HeatLifer

[ulkis]

What was the point of Liz's call with the insurance company? To rub it in that she doesn't have a husband? Although I've never had an insurance company ask to speak to my husband when I'm the policy holder.

I don't know MissE. To be honest, it really seems like you're twisting every thing or action into some sort of anti-Liz message from the writers, when there are enough big things from the show. Yes, they shat on Liz all summer but they're starting to turn things around.