Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

[stlbf]

Agree to disagree with this statement. As for Liz's conscience, it seems to have taken a long vacation.

If Liz didn't have a strong conscious, then she wouldn't have any issues about keeping quiet. But she does. It is eating away at her.

If this was Carly, you can be quite certain that she would sleep like a baby and never mention the subject again. Carly had no issue keeping quiet about AJ's paternity of Michael. It wasn't until it made more sense to Carly to inform AJ of the truth to manipulate him to better suit her agenda. Carly would have not one qualm doing this same thing if it made her happy.

Liz is feeling panic, fear and guilt. Just not enough yet to blow the secret. Now she believes that Nik is perfectly able to kill someone to protect the secret. That'll crank up the guilt meter too

[WendyCR72]

If Liz didn't have a strong conscious, then she wouldn't have any issues about keeping quiet. But she does. It is eating away at her.

 

If Liz's conscience was eating away at her, she would do more than just spout the words at how horrible she is being. She'd woman up and spill. And yes, Carly is a vile human being, but it's even more illuminating about Liz since she would always turn up her nose at Carly when Liz has become just like her when it comes down to it. And considering Liz has always made herself out to be so morally superior, the irony stands out.

 

So I don't believe anything about Liz's guilt or pain because it's just lip service. And she does the same shit over and over and over again while expecting a different result. She deserves all the misery that is about to come to her.

[tvgoddess]

And yet the thing is that as much as people want her to feel guilty, it just bugs the hell out of me the more she does it. It's repetitive and annoying. Either come clean or commit to the lie full force and move the fuck on. But this endless hand-wringing makes me want drop kick her into the harbor alongside the original fish floating corpse of her truest love.

[Oracle42]

If Nik was supposed to do something about the fact that Liz has lost her ever-lovin mind - shouldn't she be returning the favor? He tried to murder someone over a fraudulent business deal. He is manipulating and hurting his family members. His behavior is waaaay more disturbing and OOC that Liz lying about one of baby daddies

Edited August 26, 2015 by Oracle42

[HeatLifer]

I see fear and panic in Liz. But I don't see her feeling guilt or feeling sorry for Sam or Monica or anyone. She blackmailed and made Laura CRY. She almost asked Nik to try to kill Hayden AGAIN. She got **** back and went straight to work. She doesn't give a flying fuck about where Lucky is or where Robin is (she can join everyone else). I mean, she was pimping Sam and Patrick BEFORE the secret. She's a TERRIBLE FRIEND. This is who the show has made Liz. It's disgusting.

[KerleyQ]

I see fear and panic in Liz. But I don't see her feeling guilt or feeling sorry for Sam or Monica or anyone. She blackmailed and made Laura CRY. She almost asked Nik to try to kill Hayden AGAIN. She got **** back and went straight to work. She doesn't give a flying fuck about where Lucky is or where Robin is (she can join everyone else). I mean, she was pimping Sam and Patrick BEFORE the secret. She's a TERRIBLE FRIEND. This is who the show has made Liz. It's disgusting.

 

I don't understand how her "pimping Sam and Patrick" before she knew about Jake makes her a terrible friend.  As far as she knew, Robin chose to leave, so Patrick was free to move on.  Both Robin and Patrick are her friends, so she was being supportive of Patrick finding happiness after his split with Robin.  If Patrick and Anna couldn't figure out that Robin was, once again, being held captive, then I don't see how we can expect Liz to have pieced it all together on her own (with a lot less pertinent information to go on, to boot).  

[ulkis]

I don't think Liz is a terrible friend for encouraging Patrick and Sam, but I think she should feel a lot weirder advocating Sam and Patrick when there's a iffy history between her and Sam and Robin is/was her good friend. As usual, all nuances are blown away for sledge hammer-ing.

[HeatLifer]

Liz hates Sam. I would never, in a million years, believe she would be happy or YAY or a cheerleader about Patrick being with her. Just MO on that, specifically.

As far as being a friend of Patrick, she should have thrown it out there that maybe it's too soon for him to already be in so deep with another woman after everything that has happened. He had JUST divorced Robin. Like, how do you not have a REAL straight up convo with your friend instead of, "Awesome, Patrick! So happy for you!!"

Ron made everything into a plot point. And he made it so characters say whatever to make his story go 'round.

And I think Liz has a lot of info now. I hold her just as accountable as I hold Anna and Patrick and Nik.

Edited August 24, 2015 by HeatLifer

[KerleyQ]

Liz and Sam have been all over the map with how they feel about each other.  More often than not, it's a "live and let live" relationship.  I don't think encouraging Patrick, if she thinks he seems happy with Sam, is remotely out of bounds for her.  And nobody on this show observes normal "waiting periods" for relationships after death/divorce/breakups.  In real life, yes, but on a soap, I don't expect to see characters discouraging their friends from "too soon" relationships all that often.  

[HeatLifer]

Liz and Sam have been all over the map with how they feel about each other. More often than not, it's a "live and let live" relationship. I don't think encouraging Patrick, if she thinks he seems happy with Sam, is remotely out of bounds for her. And nobody on this show observes normal "waiting periods" for relationships after death/divorce/breakups. In real life, yes, but on a soap, I don't expect to see characters discouraging their friends from "too soon" relationships all that often.

Carly was granted a .02 sec scene of "Isn't it too soon to get engaged?" convo with Jake. I think it's something that can be done if the writers allow it. They're just too focused on Sam and Patrick being perfect and everyone just accepting them together. Same with Liz and Jake, especially on Patrick's end. He's just happy for Liz? Really? Becoming engaged to a guy who has no idea who he is. Patrick? Who had no issues telling Robin whatever was on his douchebag mind. I just can't stand him or his hair. Sorry, got off on a tangent again. Edited August 25, 2015 by HeatLifer

[dubbel zout]

But Nik gave her excuses: Jason was a bad guy, a killer. Jake can be a happy good guy.

 

It cracks me up that Nik and Liz seem to think that once Jake knows he's Jason, he'll suddenly snap back to being a hit man: "Oh, right, that's my real job!"

 

If Liz didn't have a strong conscious, then she wouldn't have any issues about keeping quiet. But she does. It is eating away at her.

 

Nope. If she genuinely had a strong conscience (sorry to be that person, but this is the word that's meant), she wouldn't be lying in the first place. She'd tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may. I totally understand why she's lying, but let's not pretend it's for the greater good. It's all about her.

Edited August 26, 2015 by dubbel zout

[Oracle42]

Nik drops the bombshell that Jake is Jason. And it really broke her. She was tired of being alone and unhappy. She knew what she should do: tell Sam and the Qs. But Nik gave her excuses: Jason was a bad guy, a killer. Jake can be a happy good guy. And Liz could be happy too. She couldn't stand the thought of being miserable and alone again. All she had to do was shut up and be happy. Sam was happy with Patrick. Monica has mourned and gotten past Jason's death. Danny was happy with Sam, Patrick and Emma. Why rock the boat? It sure as hell is rationalization and the immoral choice, but I can see Liz's pov. Her problem is that Liz is a pretty moral woman and her conscious isn't going to let her do it. Not even for love.

Nik didn't give her excuses. He told her the truth so she wouldn't get hurt and tried to talk her out of her creepy obsessive plan.

He's given her excuses since then but that was weeks later and she was wavering because she was afraid of being found out - not because she was doing the wrong thing and causing harm to Jason and his family

[WendyCR72]

Nik didn't give her excuses. He told her the truth so she wouldn't get hurt and tried to talk her out of her creepy obsessive plan.

He's given her excuses since then but that was weeks later and she was wavering because she was afraid of being found out - not because she was doing the wrong thing and causing harm to Jason and his family

 

Yep. Liz is an adult woman. "Nik made me!" is ludicrous. Time for her to pull up her big-girl panties and face the consequences.

[UYI]

I'm curious: What did Carly think of Liz before she started hanging out with Jason in 1999? Did she just see her as her cousin Lucky's girlfriend? Did they even interact at all?

Edited September 6, 2015 by UYI

[ulkis]

No, not really. They thought nothing of each other really.

[ulkis]

I frankly don't care how good RH looks physically (and this poor woman looks her character looks pretty much like a skeleton to me, not at all attractive despite her face and her fans), her character is pretty much dog shit and if RH wasn't as pretty and as thin as she is, all the fans in the world wouldn't have saved her in 2009, and maybe the rabid fans shoudn't have had that much power, because Lizzie has done NOTHING for this show past the L&L2 so-called phenomenon.

I don't like Liz solely because she is pretty. Otherwise I'd like every female character on this show. You're right that my main affection for her stems back from LL2, but I wouldn't say she's contributed nothing to this show, she's had two other popular pairings. It also wasn't just "rabid" fans of Liz who protested when BH got fired.

Edited September 24, 2015 by ulkis

[JaneDigby]

I don't like Liz solely because she is pretty. Otherwise I'd like every female character on this. You're right that my main affection for her stems back from LL2, but I wouldn't say she's contributed nothing to this show, she's had two other popular pairings. It also wasn't just "rabid" fans of Liz who protested when BH got fired.

 

I agree that any affection/tolerance for Liz (the character) likely has roots in Lucky/Liz. I know there are hardcore fans of the Liz/Jason pairing, too. Not my thing but I've met a few and they were average soap fans. I liked Liz/Ric version 1 - before Ric was 100% tossed under the bus to prop Sonny. Liz is part of a core family, a link back to a time when the show was about (gasp) a hospital and not the mob. RH's looks have zero impact on how I feel about Liz. (I still want to know RH's skin care regime but that's another matter. )

 

I'd be up for having Liz reclaimed as a character - she's a mess in my eyes. I don't think she's any more dog shit than Sonny, Carly, Ava, Franco, Sam, Alexis or Jason at this point. 

[SlovakPrincess]

Almost all the characters are FUBAR at this point.   So I don't think Liz can't be redeemed.  If she came to her senses and confessed and took the recriminations and consequences like a grown up (and got some damn therapy), she might eventually be fine.  

 

Really, a two-year reset is in order to purge the taint of Ron's over-the-top, ugly, character-wrecking legacy.   But they won't do it, unfortunately.  They just have the characters do ridiculous things and then expect us to shrug.  

[KerleyQ]

Really, Liz's speech to herself at the NB about how everyone in town has done awful shit and been essentially rewarded for it, living happy lives, may as well have been the viewers talking.  What Liz is doing is wrong, no question, but on the sliding moral scale that is the town of Port Charles, it's definitely not even in the top 10 of worst things people have done. It still needs to be redeemed in some way, no question, but as long as the various killers in town are still walking around on screen, she doesn't need to be run out of town in shame. 

[tallyrand]

The problem with Liz is that she could have had a nice, happy life but she keeps ruining it for herself.  She is the mistress of her own destruction based on her bad choices.  Which is one of the reasons I find her fascinating.  Out of all of the characters on GH, I have always found her the most fascinating psychologically, and I WISH the writers could delve more deeply into her issues.  It could be such a wonderful, interesting story.  Have Tom come back into town after getting out of jail so she has to face her rape, or have her mother come into town.  There are so many things the writers could do with Elizabeth, but instead they choose to use her in a circle of shit where she is again portrayed as the worst of the worst.  It's so frustrating because everyone else is sitting pretty.  She's GH's whipping boy (woman).  

 

I don't need or necessarily want redemption for Liz. I don't want some dumb story where she sacrifices for Danny or for Jasam's family and then she is automatically redeemed, or some horrible thing happens to her.  I want some actual time spent on her issues and her choices, so that she has to face them head on.  I also don't want to deal with weeks of her getting lambasted by all those other PC assholes.  It's going to be boring and frustrating.  This story would have been so much better if she didn't find out Jake was Jason.  

[UYI]

I would love to have a story where its explained why her whole immediate family seemed to deem her the black sheep from the time she was 15, especially if it turns out her parents have been in contact with Sarah this whole time, while they've been absent from her life. A speech where Liz tells her mother off and calls her a deadbeat would be AMAZING.

Edited September 25, 2015 by UYI

[JaneDigby]

Great comments about Liz being the author of her own misery. That jibes with the Liz who told Sarah she just plain hated her. (Yes, I cheered that.) I don't want Liz "redeemed" in the usual soap fashion - the one that involves the character losing all their interesting qualities while everyone in town says how awesome they are. I just want Liz to make sense. I want her to use her brain. 

[Oracle42]

That's kind of the reason I wanted RB to be recast as Sarah. I think Liz needs friends/family and BH & RB had a sparky antagonistic/competitive vibe that seems right for Liz and Sarah.

In the past few years, most of Liz's story lines have been romances (bad ones) and since Emily died, she hasn't had a real friend or a person who loves her unconditionally -even when they don't like her- that GH can use to give her POV and to grow the character past making the same bad choices.

I think one of the best things that Guza did for Sam was to give her a family, people to care about other than Jason, to round her out.

Liz has lost the people that used to do that for her. Audrey is never onscreen, Emily is dead, Lucky is gone and her friendship with Nik has really been damaged by the affair and by Rc's writing for the characters.

I like BH as an actress and I want to like Liz but I need something to root for 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Oracle42

[Lillybee]

What bothers me the most about Liz is during the time that Niz was running is that Nik tried to leave PC twice. The first time Liz convinced him to stay and the second time she sent JJ's Lucky to keep him in PC,

[dubbel zout]

I think one of the best things that Guza did for Sam was to give her a family, people to care about other than Jason, to round her out.

 

BH's backburnering for ages and the firing/rehiring debacle didn't help Liz, and Ron just let her coast on her history.

 

I like BH as an actress and I want to like Liz but I need something to root for

 

I like BH and Liz, but I agree we need something to root for. Liz has been a plot point in other people's stories for too long.

[Oracle42]

I will never understand how NL became the primary heroine in that group

[dubbel zout]

Daytime Emmy Winner Natalia Livingston, I think you meant.

[WendyCR72]

Daytime Emmy Winner Natalia Livingston, I think you meant.

 

Which is why I'll forever equate the Daytime Emmys to a prize in a Cracker Jacks box!

[UYI]

Which is why I'll forever equate the Daytime Emmys to a prize in a Cracker Jacks box!

 

I would say it's only in the last decade that the Daytime Emmys have become this way, though, and even then I would say there have still been some deserving winners. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by UYI

[dubbel zout]

I feel like the supporting categories tend to be more WTF with winners. Your choice in the lead might not win, but I think those actors more consistently deserve to be nominated. I also think the lead awards sometimes are more for a career body of work, where the supporting is more story-specific.

 

Of course there are always going to be exceptions.

Edited October 12, 2015 by dubbel zout

[WendyCR72]

I realize I was one of the guilty parties for getting this off track, but maybe we should table the Emmy stuff and get back to loving or loathing Little Miss Webber here.

 

Thanks a bunch!

[UYI]

Just for you, WendyCR72: SJB!Carly slapping Liz!

 

[WendyCR72]

Just for you, WendyCR72: SJB!Carly slapping Liz!

 

 

Aww, shucks! You know just how to make me smile, @UYI!  :-)

[testardo]

Watch out Johnny. Soon Sonny will be sending Jasonborg to kill you. Saint Sonny ? Liz is evil ? she cannot even come close if she lives for another thousand years, I am not a big Liz fan or hater. .Now carly I have always hated no matter who played her.

[ulkis]

I'm not even angry at the folks who are looking forward to Liz getting dragged. God only knows the GH fans still watching could use some small smidgen of entertainment with their daily torture. I'm sure the Liz haters will be very happy and satisfied watching the grand-daughter of Steve Hardy metaphorically dragged into a methane tank and her head held under. I won't be.

I'm not looking forward to Liz getting dragged per se. I would like someone to ask her why she thought Jason was worth driving herself insane for. Probably won't happen, sigh.

[katie9918]

I'm not looking forward to Liz getting dragged per se. I would like someone to ask her why she thought Jason was worth driving herself insane for. Probably won't happen, sigh.

That's the million dollar question not only for the characters Liz and Sam, but for each character's more looney fans.

Why the fuck would any fan of Liz or Sam want them anywhere near Jason?

[ulkis]

I mean I dunno, I can get it to a certain extent. Once you're attached to a character/pairing it's hard to get disattached later.

[mybabyaidan]

I think, and I could be misremembering, Ron at least somewhat layers a foundation for her behavior in that speech to Nikolas about how everyone in town does horrible things and instead of being punished is rewarded.

 

I still think that's a flimsy reason.  "Everyone else is doing it, so I am too!"  Be your own person, have some kind of morals in a town full of morally corrupt people.   I just always think if Liz as being held to higher standards than most of PC.  She's not in the mob, she's not a murderer, and she usually isn't a mob enabler.  She's supposed to be "better".   It's just annoying that her reasoning for this whole thing is so lame and pathetic.  It could have been a much more interesting story if Jake and Liz had been developed as a couple more.  If they had already been intimate and had been on more than one fucking date.  I could have bought her reasons for lying a lot more if she and Jake had been truly in love when she found out the truth. The whole story was fucked up from the beginning, so I just can't wait until this whole debacle is over with.

 

Except that Liz always has to be the bad guy for Jasam. Sam did bad things for Liason, but Liz was doing horrible things during that time as well. Not to mention that Sam never had to pay for anything she did. She got to be the big hero rescuing Jake, and she still got what she wanted in the end. 

 

Liz on the other hand, never got what she wanted. She went from that Jason shit to the Niz affair, and then got to be alone for 4 years, before they decided to make her the bad guy for Jasam during the Danny lie. She had to chase after Jason, when he clearly wanted nothing to do with her, and she had to keep Danny from his mom. 

 

Now they have her doing that again. and once again, Sam will get everything she ever wanted, while Liz will be hated by everyone, and end up all alone, and probably without her kids as well. If Jasam need a bad guy, then let someone else do it. Liz has paid her dues with that horrendous couple.

 

Also, there doesn't have to be a bad guy. Especially when its so one sided. Sam is a freaking saint on this show, while Liz is being portrayed as a psycho. Its extremely lazy writing. If you want Liz keeping this secret, then making Sam the saint of Port Charles, just makes it way too obvious what the writers intentions with Liz are. There was absolutely no reason to have Liz keep this secret. Her lying about Danny, made her and Sam "even" if you can even call it that. 

 

This is pure character assassination to make two characters look better. That's all it is, and to me, if you have to completely destroy a character that has been on this show for 20 years, just to make a couple look good, or make people root for them, then that couple clearly can't stand on their own.

 

 

Liz was barely in JaSam's story for years.  I think there was even a year when Liz and Jason only shared like a few scenes.  So I don't really see how Liz is ALWAYS the bad guy for JaSam.  She certainly wasn't the bad guy when Sam watched Jake get kidnapped.   And Sam most definitely "paid" for her actions....In PC terms anyway.   It will be the same for Liz.  She'll get consequences, and move on like everyone else (besides Sonny and Carly) on this show.  I just don't see how anyone can say Liz will get it worse than everyone else when it hasn't even aired/been written yet.    I also don't understand the whole "Sam is a saint" stuff I have seen get thrown around all the time.  She isn't a saint.  She is a normal person.  Just because she isn't actively lying right now, or scheming doesn't make her a saint.  She still "supports" the mob, she still does illegal things.  She is far from sainthood.

 

And again, JaSam has been a popular couple for almost 10 years (off and on).  Liz was only a factor on a small percentage of that.   LeftPhalange said a lot of what I was going to say, so I'll just leave it with this.  They can stand on their own just fine.  They did for years.   But we'll never agree, so let's just agree to disagree.

 

Exactly! Once Kelly was staying, Sam got a full whitewash, and became the big victim in that whole mess. Liz won't get that here because Sam is a bigger saint at this point, then Sabrina was. Liz won't be allowed to bring up all the times Sam has hurt her, and what Sam did to Jake. She will just have to take whatever nonsense Sam gives her. Hell, they've already showed how Sam will never own up to what she did, when she decided to bash Liz to Patrick, and tell him about Danny, but conveniently leaving out everything she did to Liz and Jake.

 

And at what point does Liz get to stop being the bad guy for Jason and Sam? When does she get to truly move on?

 

Just because Sam doesn't wax on and on about something she did in her past doesn't mean she hasn't owned up to it.  And again, we don't know she hasn't told Patrick about the Jake stuff.  Just because she didn't mention it on the day she talked about the Danny thing doesn't mean he doesn't know.  Hell, Sam found out about Liz's part in the Danny thing offscreen. 

 

How did Sam become a victim in the Jake kidnapping mess?  Jason threatened to kill her, Lucky broke up with her, and she was on the outs with a lot of people for a long time.  I never saw her being written as the victim back then.

 

 

Bottomline, Jake and Liz fell in love long before Nicholas ran his big fat mouth and outed that Jake and Jason were the same person.

 

YMMV here, but I really don't think they were in "love" by the Nurses Ball.  And THAT is where I think the writers made a HUGE mistake in this whole stupid clusterfuck of a storyline.  If Liz HAD to find out, they should have established Lake much better.  As it was, up until the Nurses Ball, they only had one interrupted date and weren't even intimate.  I would call what they had attraction, and maybe even intense like, but I don't think it was love at that point.  BUt again, YMMV.

 

I mean I dunno, I can get it to a certain extent. Once you're attached to a character/pairing it's hard to get disattached later.

 

It really is.  I hated Jason for a long long time after the shit he pulled after Sam was raped (I am still calling it that even though Franco never actually raped her....she THOUGHT she was raped for over a year) and especially after he wanted her to abort her baby.   But as a Sam fan, I want her to be happy.  And Jason is her soulmate.  Her husband.  They pretty much go hand in hand, as long as both of them are on the show.

[tallyrand]

I don't disagree with much of what you said. I just think that on the occasions when the writers have decided jasam need angst they bring in Liz to be the spoiler. Basically Liz is now a stalking freak obsessed with Jason. That's all her character is. It's frustrating to see a character and actress you like being reduced to being so pathetic while every other character is being written as the best they can be and is being protected. And not that this belongs in the Liz thread but I don't think sam paid for actions. She got jason back, got a baby and no one other than Liz, Jason and lucky know about her transgressions. Everyone in town knows about the niZ affair. Liz is treated like a plot point not a character. It's frustrating to watch every other character move on while she just gets to stay pathetic for the loser jason.

[katie9918]

My favorite Liz was the one who shaded Jason every time she saw him while she was with Ric. She only changed her tune when she found out about all of Ric's horrible deeds, which should have only affected how she felt about Ric.

The fact that Ric was a psycho didn't change that Jason was a remorseless serial killer and it's a shame Liz wasn't permitted to dump Ric's ass and retain her antipathy towards Jason.

[Oracle42]

 

Bottomline, Jake and Liz fell in love long before Nicholas ran his big fat mouth and outed that Jake and Jason were the same person.

YMMV here, but I really don't think they were in "love" by the Nurses Ball.  And THAT is where I think the writers made a HUGE mistake in this whole stupid clusterfuck of a storyline.  If Liz HAD to find out, they should have established Lake much better.  As it was, up until the Nurses Ball, they only had one interrupted date and weren't even intimate.  I would call what they had attraction, and maybe even intense like, but I don't think it was love at that point.  BUt again, YMMV.

 

Liz had just broken up with Ric (who was about to propose to her) when Nik told her the truth about Jason. I think it was another terrible decision on RC's part but I don't think you can make a credible argument that Liz/Jake were in love given the fact that she immediately dropped him for Ric and was in a relationship with Ric until she learned the truth about Jake's identity.

 

I don't disagree with much of what you said. I just think that on the occasions when the writers have decided jasam need angst they bring in Liz to be the spoiler.

 

I've missed some of GH but the only time I remember Liz being involved with Jason/Sam was during SOS/Jake and the Danny DNA lie. What other times has she served as angst? Because I watched most of Jason/Sam's stories and I don't remember seeing Liz in most of them and they stretched out over years. 

[mybabyaidan]

I've missed some of GH but the only time I remember Liz being involved with Jason/Sam was during SOS/Jake and the Danny DNA lie. What other times has she served as angst? Because I watched most of Jason/Sam's stories and I don't remember seeing Liz in most of them and they stretched out over years. 

 

 

Nope, those are the only 2 I remember as well.  So yeah, she has served as angst, but hardly ALWAYS.  JaSam were together a long ass time.  And they had a lot of angst that didn't include Liz at all. 

[KerleyQ]

I don't disagree with much of what you said. I just think that on the occasions when the writers have decided jasam need angst they bring in Liz to be the spoiler. Basically Liz is now a stalking freak obsessed with Jason. That's all her character is. It's frustrating to see a character and actress you like being reduced to being so pathetic while every other character is being written as the best they can be and is being protected. And not that this belongs in the Liz thread but I don't think sam paid for actions. She got jason back, got a baby and no one other than Liz, Jason and lucky know about her transgressions. Everyone in town knows about the niZ affair. Liz is treated like a plot point not a character. It's frustrating to watch every other character move on while she just gets to stay pathetic for the loser jason.

 

There was really just no reason to do the angle of Liz knowing (or at least not as soon as she did).  Wasn't there enough angst for JaSam with him not knowing who he is and Nik knowing (and tying it all into the ELQ story that she was investigating)?  Not only is it unnecessary character trashing, but it's made the story drag out WAY longer than it should have.  

[katie9918]

I honestly don't think there's character trashing going on here.

What Liz is doing is extreme, of course, but I don't think it's that much more extreme than some of the other ill-advised shit she's pulled in the past.

[tallyrand]

Since 2006, Liz has been used as a spoiler or the other party. The SOS, the jake lie, Danny/DNA and now. Considering jason and sam got together in what 2005, that's not nothing. Basically Liz was angst from 2006-2008 and then in 2010 or 2011 and now. I didn't say always. I'm sure they had other problems. But when Jason was having an outside flirtation during the time he was with sam, I believe it was exclusively with Liz.

[Oracle42]

I actually think it would have been worse if SBu hadn't left when he did. I think RC was planning to play out this story originally using the Danny DNA lie as the story that would blow them up - which means that lie would have lasted months instead of days but either way I don't think RC was planning to do a real Liz/Jason story and Liz was always going to be the bad guy. 

 

I think RC believed he was much better at writing gray characters and redemption stories than he actually was

Edited November 2, 2015 by Oracle42

[tallyrand]

Marrying a man who is already married and moving for him to adopt her children is pretty extreme. For example jason proposed to her twice I think when she was pregnant with jake back in 2006-7 and she said no because he loved sam. It wouldn't be extreme for sam to endanger children based on what she's done in the past or patrick to show no sympathy for SAMs obsession with her dead husband , but the writers have Liz being the worst of herself while sam, Jason and Patrick are the best. The unevenness of the writing is what bothers me more so than Liz being written out of character.

Edited November 2, 2015 by tallyrand

[WendyCR72]

I have made no secret about my negative feelings for Liz, but I think "wolf in sheep's clothing" or "woman always wanting what she can't have" is how most regimes have viewed her since JJ's Lucky first "died".

 

Maybe it's not right or fair with her background, but if it wasn't so, I doubt Ewen would have been turned bad and disposed of. Hell, Matt/Liz could have gone somewhere. But TIIC axed him, too.

 

It seems like they don't want Liz to have her own romance and she is seen as the obstacle, the interloper. Not to dredge up that past controversy, but I bet that is why BH was almost fired: Because no one cares about Liz moving out of the interloper, devil in disguise roadblock.

 

And considering how things have progressed, I don't see the pattern breaking anytime soon.

[katie9918]

Marrying a man who is already married and moving for him to adopt her children is pretty extreme. For example jason proposed to her twice I think when she was pregnant with jake back in 2006-7 and she said no because he loved sam. It wouldn't be extreme for sam to endanger children based on what she's done in the past or patrick to show no sympathy for SAMs obsession with her dead husband , but the writers have Liz being the worst of herself while sam, Jason and Patrick are the best. The unevenness of the writing is what bothers me more so than Liz being written out of character.

Given the fact that both Patrick and Sam are milquetoast pod versions unrecognizable as themselves, i hardly think Liz is the only one being written OOC. And Patrick has been consistently trashed since Robin was forced out of town by Victor and Helena.

Liz isn't the only character being trashed here.

[mybabyaidan]

Since 2006, Liz has been used as a spoiler or the other party. The SOS, the jake lie, Danny/DNA and now. Considering jason and sam got together in what 2005, that's not nothing. Basically Liz was angst from 2006-2008 and then in 2010 or 2011 and now. I didn't say always. I'm sure they had other problems. But when Jason was having an outside flirtation during the time he was with sam, I believe it was exclusively with Liz.

 

I wasn't referring to your posts when I said always.   And if you list all of the angst/obstacles JaSam has been through in their time together, Liz barely makes a blip.  But again, agree to disagree.  I don't want to keep repeating stuff, So I am going to bow out now.  Have a good night all!

Edited November 2, 2015 by mybabyaidan