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The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

Grammaeryn

By Grammaeryn
in Arrow

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nksarmi

nksarmi

If I had to compare Oliver/Felicity in terms of writing and function to any couple right now, it would probably be the Clana relationship on Smallville, which I admit isn't a very flattering comparison.

Now I didn't watch Smallville - I tried, I just couldn't - but from everything I've read, I agree with the comparison and I think that is the model this show is following.  I hate to say it, but I think the show will do several seasons of will they/won't they with Oliver and Felicity while building a friendship back up between Oliver and Laurel.  Then in the end (maybe even just the final few episodes), they will go with the iconic pairing of GA + BC. 

 

If this wasn't a comic book show with an iconic couple to address, I would think they might go the path of the two lawyers on JAG where we had to sit through years of one was unavailable/neither wants to sacrifice their career/will they-wont they crap only for them to finally end up together at the last possible second.  I think that crap gets old and I'd rather no show do it ever again. 

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Morrigan2575
Morrigan2575

I always find it odd when people blame the writing for LLs failure. I'll give them that for Lauiver because of the whole cheating thing but, let's be honest if SA/KC had the chemistry that SA/EBR had,

lemotomato
lemotomato

Sorry, that argument rings really hollow when the show has had a history of killing off/mistreating other female characters without a peep of protest from those same "concerned" people. Moira Queen, S

ComicFan777
ComicFan777

I know that this is supposed to be Felicity's dark arc, but...Felicity desperately doing whatever she can to save people (damn the consequences down the road) doesn't make me think that she's losing w

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Angel12d

Angel12d

It's funny, I didn't realize the GA/BC pairing was so iconic. I mean, I'd never even heard of it before. It was only when I started watching this show and googled some things that I found out. Clark/Lois is what I'd call iconic for sure. 

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

I'm interested in this actually. What do you guys think makes an iconic comic book pairing?

Being widely recognizable because they've been integrated into pop culture. So: the characters/pairings that can be easily identified by the majority of non-comic book readers.

Lois and Clark? Yes. Oliver and Dinah? Not really.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

I guess Robert Dougherty had a lot to say recently (too much to quote, so only quoted first paragraph)...

 

The Cost Of Oliver & Laurel's Poor Decisions On 'Arrow' Is At Hand
By Robert Dougherty Mar 27, 2015 02:58 PM
http://www.themovienetwork.com/article/cost-oliver-laurels-poor-decisions-arrow-hand

Two of the most frustrating parts of Arrow Season Three have been Oliver pushing away any his chance to being with Felicity, and Laurel concealing the truth about Sara’s death from her father much longer than she should have. A good part of the audience has been fed up as a consequence, as Oliver and Laurel have each shown supremely ill-advised, one-track ways of thinking – and an inability to really show proper respect for the people that are supposed to be more important to them than anything. For that matter, one could say Arrow has the same problem with its own single minded thinking.
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Edited by tv echo
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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

Rickards delivers her lines with such emotion and truth that it’s hard to separate the character from the actor

 

This was from the Entertainment Monthly review. I found this line very odd and a tad creepy.  I really hope that professional reviewers are able to separate characters from actors.   

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Delphi

Delphi

I think they meant that Emily throws so much of herself into her work that it sometimes seems like the lines blur, it's hard to even see that's she's an actress doing a job but that Felicity seems like a hundred percent a real person. I could be wrong thigh, but that's kinda how I see ebr sometimes.

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foreverevolving

foreverevolving

This was from the Entertainment Monthly review. I found this line very odd and a tad creepy.  I really hope that professional reviewers are able to separate characters from actors.   

 

The connection of "EW = professional reviewers" is fault at its core, it's EW not Vulture or Examiner; trying to find a proper writer there is like finding a needle in a hay stack. just sayin...

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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

(edited)

The connection of "EW = professional reviewers" is fault at its core, it's EW not Vulture or Examiner; trying to find a proper writer there is like finding a needle in a hay stack. just sayin...

 

Actually, the review is from Emertainment Monthly, which I guess is the online student publication for Emerson College, and has nothing to do with Entertainment Weekly, the pop-culture magazine. And while I agree Entertainment Weekly has lost a bit of cachet after folks such as Gillian Flynn, Ken Tucker, etc. left (or were booted out), it still has pretty decent professional reviewers in Jeff Jensen and Chris Nashataway.

 

The problem is that the recaps it does could sometimes be mistaken for reviews when they are absolutely not. They are basically a play-by-play of TV shows, with the occasional snarky comments thrown in by folks who may or may not be professional reviewers (I'm guessing not from the content I've seen). Also, there's a lot of difference between the EW.com and the magazine. The website, like many other media companies, doesn't always employ journalists. The magazine, from what I understand, still does.

Edited by SmallScreenDiva
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wonderwall

wonderwall

I really like this person's reviews:

 

Arrow 3x17 "Suicidal Tendencies" (So It's Gonna Be Forever Or It's Gonna Go Down In Flames)

Jennifer Marie

http://www.itsjustaboutwrite.com/2015/03/arrow-3x17-suicidal-tendencies-so-its.html

 

 

What's really refreshing about the Oliver/Felicity in this episode is Oliver himself. HE is the one constantly fighting for Felicity. He's the one who tells Ray that Felicity is worth trusting, that her judgement is solid, and that he has nothing to prove to her. Oliver and Felicity know each other inside out. She knows him better than most people in the world. She's not blinded by his flaws. It's actually what makes their dynamic SO great. She refuses to see him with rose-colored glasses and consistently calls him out on his crap. Ray doesn't see that, of course, and in a moment of amazing truth-delivering, Oliver tells Ray: "I have nothing to prove to her. But you do." Even in her relationship, OLIVER is the one fighting for Felicity. And he will never stop fighting for her happy ending. Ever.

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looptab

looptab

(edited)

From Matt Mitovich's "Inside Line" (The article contains spoilers)

This entire season of Arrow feels completely off, in my opinion. Never in my TV-watching life have I yelled (and not in good way) “What the f—?” as many times as I have throughout this season. My question is, do you feel the same? –Amanda
I would say that Season 3 doesn’t so much feel “off” as “too soon” – meaning, bringing on the mighty Ra’s al Ghul is more of a Season 4 or 5 move, especially since it necessitated the permanent (?) removal of Sara from the playing field. (Then again, Sara’s death was also needed as a catalyst to push Laurel into Canary mode, which some would argue was becoming conspicuously overdue.) My other quibble with the Ra’s “offer” – and I’ve stated this elsewhere — is that it asks us to believe that no one already in the League is a more worthy successor than the guy their boss dispatched with in a matter of minutes. Also, I feel like Oliver and Felicity’s talks about feelings are getting a bit repetitive. All that said, I’ve greatly enjoyed Thea’s much-needed development this season. And I have great hopes for Season 4, based on what David Ramsey teased in our Q&A.


(Edited to add the italic as featured in the original article)

Edited by looptab
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Sakura12

Sakura12

I still don't see how Sara's death was needed as a catalyst for Laurel.  So if Sara didn't die Laurel would have no inclination to be hero at all? Wow, what a hero she is. Plus her fans only reasoning is, she deserves it because of comics. That's not a good reason and makes no sense for the character we've seen on screen. It's saying that the character of Laurel deserves a title because a book said so. 

 

The entire reason I liked Sara as Canary was she did it because it was the right thing to do. She didn't have anyone die to motivate her. She motivated herself. 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

I love Robert Dougherty's comments because his frustration feels like my own gets validated. (And he's such an Olicity shipper, it's so nice to see it from a guy in his thirties.)

 

From Matt Mitovich's "Inside Line" (The article contains spoilers)


(Edited to add the italic as featured in the original article)

That's the first time I've ever seen him comment on the show in general rather than a specific spoiler question. That's more in line with Matt Rousch at TV Guide.

 

I find it interesting that it's opened up the floodgates for complaints about this season of the show. 

 

Did Mitovich do it on purpose? Conspiracy theorists want to know.

Edited by statsgirl
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kismet

kismet

I love Robert Dougherty's comments because his frustration feels like my own gets validated. (And he's such an Olicity shipper, it's so nice to see it from a guy in his thirties.)

 

That's the first time I've ever seen him comment on the show in general rather than a specific spoiler question. That's more in line with Matt Rousch at TV Guide.

 

I find it interesting that it's opened up the floodgates for complaints about this season of the show. 

 

Did Mitovich do it on purpose? Conspiracy theorists want to know.

I also find it curious that he answered 3 arrow questions in 1 article, but then released very little spoilers in his answers. So It does sorta feel a little pointed. Perhaps he just as fatigued with this season. I mean he must watch a lot of TV, you tend to be able to tell the good from the not so good. But it does sorta feel like the new motto is onwards to season 4. It seems like MG is the only one that is gung-ho for the remainder of season 3.

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Kordi

Kordi

(edited)

Review of 3x17 "Suicidal Tendencies" from Matt Tucker (Green Arrow TV):
 
http://www.greenarrowtv.com/arrow-3-17-suicidal-tendencies-recap-review/22461

 

That´s what he has to say regarding Olicity:

 

"[...] The ever-present spectre of the Oliver-Felicity relationship continues to prove toxic for both characters, bringing out their worst tendencies and often grinding the show to a slow crawl if not a stop. There’s a lovely chemistry that still exists between them that proves this a vital connection for both as people, but any attention spent on this being romantic sends everyone into a tailspin. Oliver has become positively obsessive about his feelings for his lovely friend and masochistic in his way of dealing with them. Yes, it’s human to linger and regret choices you make for idealistic reasons that run contrary to what you want in life. It’s patently unfair to continue to passive-aggressively sour the air in the room with Felicity because she’s relatively moved on.

 

Therein lies the other end of the issue with this constant tug-of-war. Felicity’s feelings are obviously a gaping wound for her. Whether there is some truth to it or not, she will frequently see any criticism or move on Oliver’s part for her benefit as some sort of way to block her from happiness. Part of this is rooted in a deep-seated feeling that she wants him to just man up and fight for her. She might try to convince herself otherwise, but her actions and reactions to any idealistically positive thing Oliver does — such as finding himself and renouncing the offer to become Ra’s al Ghul — speak volumes. This does nothing well for Oliver because he keeps receiving mixed signals, even if he persuades himself to not act on them. Relationships can be messy in their humanity, which is fine and can be a gratifying palette to work with on a show. When it continuously harms characters and the audience’s enjoyment of those characters, better choices need to be made. [...]"

 

Edited by Kordi
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tv echo

tv echo

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Contrary to what two reviewers have said, the problem with the Oliver & Felicity relationship this season is not that the relationship has turned romantic but that the EPs had to come up with artificial plot contrivances to separate two people who were naturally gravitating towards each other, which in turn created unnecessary drama.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)

Contrary to what two reviewers have said, the problem with the Oliver & Felicity relationship this season is not that the relationship has turned romantic but that the EPs had to come up with artificial plot contrivances to separate two people who were naturally gravitating towards each other, which in turn created unnecessary drama.

 

Yeah, I've seen so many complaints that the relationship just doesn't work as a romance, and it's like...how do you even know? They haven't been IN a romantic relationship. The problem isn't putting them together, it's keeping them apart. I hope they just put them together next season and let the relationship live out however long it does, because IMO they've gone too far in to make it a will they/won't they kind of thing at this point. Oliver has already told her he flat-out loves her. He tied the return of his humanity to meeting her. There's only so much more mileage they can get out of keeping them apart (and by that I mean no mileage, because we're not even to the end of them BEING apart and it's already tiresome).

Edited by apinknightmare
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looptab

looptab

I dont give clicks to GATV.  So i will pass.

Can't say I blame you :) I tried too, but I need to read it all, the good, the bad, the infuriating, even when the source is not the best :/

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kismet

kismet

'Arrow' & Felicity Getting Visit From Donna Smoak Just In Time

By Robert Dougherty Mar 31, 2015 04:12 PM

http://www.themovienetwork.com/article/arrow-felicity-getting-visit-donna-smoak-just-time

 

Some good stuff in here

Reading that other critics/reviewers bring up similar points & arguments that we discuss on this board makes me feel better. Sometimes when you read what MG & other EPs say -- it makes me wonder is it me? Am I watching a different show? But no these articles help me remember that we may not always all agree, but a lot of us are on point in our discussions.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

Just tried it. Access Denied.

Damn, it worked before. IDK what happened. Here are some excerpt I found though:

 

“It was one thing for Ray to be regarded as such a failure by a not so small portion of the fanbase, and for Routh to be given nothing to work with to change their minds. It is quite another that Felicity is facing more backlash the longer she excuses Ray, sticks with him and tries to force herself to get over Oliver with him. Never mind the additional mistake the Arrow writers are making by not even letting Oliver get started yet on learning that life with Felicity is actually possible, all for the sake of him eventually turning into Ra’s al Ghul – and risking any decisions about choosing humanity/Felicity look unearned and illogical the longer they put it off.

 

But that’s being ignored in some circles to Felicity’s detriment, between Oliver and Stephen Amell’s wounded puppy dog Felicity eyes, the sloppy way Felicity is written to take crap from Ray that she never used to take from Oliver, and the fact that The Offer is the only time for weeks that Felicity has been allowed to offer Oliver real alternative solutions to problems instead of fighting with him. She should have been doing that the second Oliver wanted to work with Malcolm, if the writers weren’t so single minded and afraid of rethinking or retooling their angst ridden path.”

 

“Things would have been so much better in Team Arrow’s Oliver-free trilogy if Felicity was permitted to do more than quit the team, quasi-flirt with Ray, prop up Laurel and help her lie to Quentin, and hiss at Malcolm Merlyn – like talk to someone like Diggle or Roy about the loss and regret she felt. Things would have been much, much better later if the writers let Felicity start delving into her abandonment issues, show Oliver what losing him over and over again took out of her, and let her at least try to give him other options that don’t involve him leaving her and his humanity in favor of Malcolm’s help – and instead we got angry speeches, hooking up with Ray and almost nothing else.

 

For that matter, things would have made a lot more sense if Diggle or Roy had come to help her out and let her get some things off her chest, which would have revealed and enriched things more than anything with Ray could have. Hell, the greatest pipe dream of all would be for even Laurel to try and help her after the help Felicity gave her at a few key points, even though it has nothing to do with her Black Canary mission. And if we really want to be ambitious, we could have had Thea and Felicity – the two remaining loves of Oliver’s life – exchange more than two words together already about their shared experience of loss and love when it comes to Oliver, especially since Thea needs a real friend now even more than Felicity does.”
“In a very, very ideal world, Donna would be intuitive enough to see that Felicity’s worry isn’t just about Ray. In an extremely ideal world, somehow Oliver would be brought up – especially if Felicity is visiting the hospital for the first time since her breakup kiss with him. In an even greater dream world where issues like this can be talked through, instead of being brushed aside as angsty subtext, Felicity would get to tell Donna about the whole Oliver situation this year – with the added comedy of leaving aside the Arrow parts and his ‘death’ And in the final great dream, Donna would bring up some of the questions fans have been asking all year. Like why Felicity didn’t push back harder in the hospital before their kiss, why she didn’t share how she feels herself in hopes of reaching Oliver, why she is flocking to another man with the same problems and why that ‘seemingly’ more normal man still isn’t enough.”
Edited by wonderwall
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Soulfire

Soulfire

(edited)

10 Reasons Why The Flash Could Ruin Arrow

 

Some good points are made. Click through for the article, but the 10 reasons are as follows:

 

10. A Superpowered Universe

9. Metahuman Villains

8. Just Call Barry

7. Barry Vs. Oliver

6. The Flash Vs. The Arrow Can’t Be Replicated

5. Insta-Heroes

4. Pseudo Science

3. Time Travel

2. Starling City: Spinoff Central

1. Creative Team Split

 

Some excerpts:

 

Reg. #5 Insta-Heroes --

 

In the months since the premiere of The Flash, characters on both sides have been catching the vigilante bug and taking to the streets without earning a place in the heroes’ gallery. Barry himself gets a pass for obtaining his abilities via lightning strike, but the convenient template of presenting a character ready-made for the jump to superheroism that worked so well on The Flash has been used far less successfully on Arrow with the transformations of Laurel Lance into Black Canary and Ray Palmer into the ATOM.

 

Seeing Barry casually refer to himself as a hero while chatting with Oliver was worth an indulgent eye-roll; watching similar scenes unfold on Arrow with non-superpowered novice vigilantes is downright cringeworthy and cheapens the journey of the protagonist.

 

Reg. #3 Time Travel --

 

And that option [Time Travel] so very much needs to stay on The Flash. Having the time travel reset button as a crutch already has the potential to cripple Barry’s show in the long run; allowing it to become canon on Arrow both deprives Oliver of a position of power on his show and lowers the stakes irrevocably. People actually die on Arrow, and the recently introduced Lazarus Pit will be trouble enough without time travel in the mix.

 

Reg. #2 Starling City: Spinoff Central --

 

[News] of a spinoff indeed featuring Brandon Routh as Palmer has only confirmed the fears of regular viewers: Oliver truly had been marginalised on his own series for the purpose of developing an audience for another character’s spinoff. As neither Palmer nor Routh have received writing nuanced enough to win the hearts of many viewers, the marginalisation may even have been for naught.

 

Reg. #1 Creative Team Split --

 

[The] increasing quality of the material on the first season of The Flash has corresponded with an increased sloppiness for much of Arrow’s third year, and it’s difficult not to wonder how much of a role the behind-the-scenes changes in the creative team dynamic played in the dip in organic storytelling. Both Kreisberg and Berlanti made the move over to executive producing on The Flash as a priority on The CW, leaving Marc Guggenheim at the helm of Arrow.

 

Of course, the decrease in effective storytelling could be attributed to other factors. Nevertheless, the fact that the collaborative crossover produced two of the best episodes of both shows is pretty compelling – and discouraging – evidence that the creative team split has had negative consequences for Arrow.

Edited by Soulfire
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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

I agree with both the Hurley/WhatCulture article and the latest Dougherty article (link is now working).  Other excerpts from Dougherty's article that I liked:

The anti Raylicity fans got quite a few new converts after last week, considering Ray’s attitude towards Felicity and Oliver after learning their secrets. And yet they really went out into full force when Felicity wound up coming to Ray to apologize, despite his lack of trust in her, his hypocrisy in lecturing Felicity about secrets, his attempts to take Oliver down and the fact he almost electrocuted Roy in the process – something even Marc Guggenheim admits he screwed up at.

*  *  *
Some could ask what is going through Felicity’s head, but it’s really wiser to wonder what is going through her writers' heads.... A lot of us fans can easily guess at the even deeper reasons behind all of this. But the longer the show doesn’t bother to address it, or give Felicity an actual friend or person to talk to other than Oliver and Ray, the more everyone else just starts to wonder what is wrong with her – when her writers deserve all those questions instead.
*  *  *
Felicity did briefly share the scars of her father leaving her last season with Oliver, before telling him about Malcolm being Thea’s dad. Those scars were brought up again from Donna this year, only in a new context. And in the process, every time Oliver has pushed her away, left her or unintentionally made her feel unwanted and unworthy enough to stay for has had an even deeper meaning. Combined with how her first love was taken away, presumed dead and then revealed to have turned evil, it makes for a textbook abandonment complex.

 

The kind that is so severe that Felicity would settle for anything like Ray – who at least hasn’t left yet – after being left by Oliver once too often and so many before then. The kind that, in a show that didn’t screw itself up, would have been addressing this from the very beginning and not just in special appearances from parents.
*  *  *
Others can say that pulling away from Oliver, rejecting him and his poor decisions and trying to move on is her pushing back from how Oliver thinks his life, and hers, is supposed to be. Yet there’s so many more issues, demons and fears from Felicity's side that should have been addressed in the process and haven't -- and would have been so much better avenues to make her hold back from Oliver than any love triangle nonsense, and Ray nonsense in general.

 

Now because they've gone the other way and made her look stupid to many more viewers, all for the sake of the show's misguided vision, they are squandering Felicity in more ways than one right now. If they could have actually taken time to get into her head, give her other people to open up to and defend herself to, and delve deeper into the real issues and losses that have afflicted her in ways we can only guess, this could have been somewhat salvaged for her. Yet when it comes to the need to make Ray work, get their precious new spinoff and put Olicity through the unnecessary angst playbook, little things like that don’t seem to matter to them.
*  *  *
If they've been saving the real good stuff to truly explore Felicity's issues, abandonment fears and desperation for someone to finally come back to her and show she's someone worth every risk -- or so we can only guess -- then they'd better be done with the waiting game now. If they can't even be bothered to really try and give her feelings the much better, more illuminating context they deserve with her mother around, then at this rate, they may not even try again until September 2015 at the earliest.

Edited by tv echo
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statsgirl

statsgirl

They really did miss a lot of potentially good storylines about Felicity's feelings of abandonment, instead choosing to build up BC, Ray and Ra's.

 

Charlotte Ross:

 

 

And, y'know, I think it would be so much fun. I think that his character has been through so much, and he's so serious, he needs to have some fun and some laughs. I think their personalities are so different -- they're so strong, in different ways, and have been through so much heartache as well, in different ways. And I think that, instinctually, I just get a good feeling that I think it could be a really fun thing to play. I think the fans are kind of dead on that way.

I'm not sure exactly what's going to happen, but it's safe to say that Greg [berlanti], Andrew [Kreisberg] and Marc [Guggenheim] and the network, they hear the fans, they see what they're saying and that really is taken into consideration, I think. I'm kind of hopeful that I have a little date with the detective. I really do.

The actors keep telling me this but I've yet to see real evidence of it.

 

 

Now, I love being the boss, and I seem to be playing a lot of MILFs! Those kind of roles seem to be coming up, and listen, I'm honored. I'm a fitness fanatic, so I work out two to three hours a day. I try to give advice to women about what to eat and how to work out and that kind of thing, so I love being the mom -- and if it's a mom that has to wear a Herve Leger dress that's the size of my fingernail, then yeah!

I admire people who can work out for that long. So much better than me.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

This part cracked me up, because seriously:

Super sweet that the first thing Oliver asks Felicity, when he’s being hunted by police, is how Ray was doing. I don’t know how she just didn’t kick everyone else out of Dig’s apartment at that moment and make sweet now-or-never fugitive love with Oliver.

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looptab

looptab

"Nothing annoys me in this world more than Laurel’s “trying not to get caught in a lie” face. Nothing else in this world. Not taxes, not dirty dishes, not traffic jams. Nothing."

Seriously. Worst poker face ever.

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