The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[Guest]

I don't think EBR/Felicity is leaving or dying but okay.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Guest

[Velocity23]

Without it there is no way they gonna reduce Felicity's role. 

[Guest]

Sure there is. Just have her on the computer/comms to relay information and say something comical once in a while. 

Again, just to reiterate, I'm in no way saying this is gonna happen and I don't want it to either. But it's okay to speculate.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Guest

[theOAfc]

Just now, Velocity23 said:

Without it there is no way they gonna reduce Felicity's role. 

Of course there is. There's a reason its called reduce and not erase.

[Velocity23]

Just now, theOAfc said:

Of course there is. There's a reason its called reduce and not erase.

LOL ok keep insisting on that if it makes you feel better. Cannot wait till season 6! 

[ohjoy]

@way2interested types faster than I do, so I pretty much agree with that post. But what I was going to say was --

33 minutes ago, kismet said:

It was the writers & TPTB choice to refuse to write for 2 female leads and change up the formula once it failed. Shame on the writers. In choosing to not split the role, they have damaged their show.

And frankly, if the show moves forward they will have to deal with FS and BC, so here's hoping they have a better plan. Because unless they make FS the BC (which I don't think will be popular with any group), they will always have to deal with 2 female leads. Because for BC to remain true to her comic legend, she needs to be more of a prominent fighter than just a newbie on TA. And that type of prominence will read as female lead to most audiences. So either remove one from the show or learn to write for both.

This, surprisingly, is one thing for which I don't blame the writers. They shouldn't have had to split the role. The idea was to have a female partner for Oliver -- one that was his partner on the romantic front and on the crimefighting front. Their first plan was to have that one female be Laurel (as LI & BC), but they screwed that up from the get-go. Felicity was the totally organic replacement  -- LI + tech wizard that fought daily from within the lair and also in the field occasionally. It worked for me and filled both roles; there was no need to split. The problem was that she sufficiently filled both roles, but for some reason BC didn't go to recurring status or go away altogether. Whether that was on the showrunners or the network or DCTV, I don't know, but that's the arrow with which they shot themselves in the leg.

So they finally get rid of the extraneous BC, only to (apparently) simultaneously strip Felicity of part of the duality for which she had been boosted (the LI portion of the equation). Then they go and add yet another BC. So they are really in a tough spot now -- they either have to get rid of one of these so that the other can fill the dual role as originally planned (which was not an inherently bad plan), or they have to figure out who to write for both of them -- which IMO works only if they split the role, with one character being the romantic partner and the other being the crimefighting partner. (Splitting is the less desirable outcome because it tends to flatten the character dimensions of both women -- their layers are reduced so people can clearly identify which one is which.)

Edited February 22, 2017 by RandomMe
sorry; playing "pick the pronoun"

[statsgirl]

16 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Because if what @SmallScreenDiva said is true and BC didn't work because they didn't know what to do with her (partly because her role was taken by Felicity and they couldn't have two female leads), what's going to happen with the new BC? Felicity still exists. So what's going to happen moving forward? 

And with how hard they're pushing this new BC and talking about how they can't make a GA show without her, it's not exactly a stretch to worry if Felicity's place on the show will slowly diminish. I'm not necessarily saying this is going to happen but it's okay to wonder about it.

They're saying you can't have a Green Arrow universe without a Black Canary, IIRC.  I"m hoping that means that she exists but is not necessary on the show for 23 episodes each season.  Have her be a recurring character is my hope.

[theOAfc]

7 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

 Cannot wait till season 6! 

Indeed.

6 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

to get rid of one of these so that the other can fill the dual role as originally planned (which was not an inherently bad plan), or they have to figure out who to write for both of them -- which IMO works only if they split the role, with one character being the romantic partner and the other being the crimefighting partner

Of course they could just have BC be like Wild Dog and others,more like a sidekick than Oliver's main partner in fight but i highly doubt they would introduce her just for that. 

[kismet]

2 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Yes ... FS and LL were also the female leads of of s3 and s4? I am sorry but this is the age old reasoning that Felicity/EBR is either leaving or dying. 

I think there are some that will say that the storylines for 1 or both of those female leads faltered or were not as good they could be because the other existed. It's a reasonable argument considering some of the storylines that existed for them in s3 & s4. The show chooses to write these female characters as adversaries instead of partners. It would have been amazing to have seen them bond over SL's death and come together as female partners in justice.

If you believe the premise that these writers have difficulty writing quality storylines for 2 females leads, than it is also reasonable to believe that in s6 the show will continue its pattern of having difficulty writing 2 female leads again. And if you are a fan of LL or TDD, then pushing her into the background in a marginalized story arc is a problem. Just like if they decide next season to do the same thing to FS, her fans might find that problematic.

It's not about FS/EBR leaving or dying. It's about the show's writers having trouble with what to do with 2 female leads on TA. We're not novices to Arrow's problems. If they have problems with 2 female leads again, it may impact FS next year instead of BC. That is reasonable speculation and concern. It may amount to nothing, but there is a consistent pattern in how the writers handle 2 female leads and it generally is problematic for at least one of the two.

[Velocity23]

I thought Diggle was Oliver's main partner. 

I never heard a peep from EPs claiming the new BC will become a female lead now. They just repeating the company line. That BC is a part of the GA universe. Its not the first time they did this but what we got on screen was something completely different. 

[kismet]

10 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

@way2interested types faster than I do, so I pretty much agree with that post. But what I was going to say was --

This, surprisingly, is one thing for which I don't blame the writers. They shouldn't have had to split the role. The idea was to have a female partner for Oliver -- one that was his partner on the romantic front and on the crimefighting front. Their first plan was to have that one female be Laurel (as LI & BC), but they screwed that up from the get-go. Felicity was the totally organic replacement  -- LI + tech wizard that fought daily from within the lair and also in the field occasionally. It worked for me and filled both roles; there was no need to split. The problem was that she sufficiently filled both roles, but for some reason BC didn't go to recurring status or go away altogether. Whether that was on the showrunners or the network or DCTV, I don't know, but that's the arrow with which they shot themselves in the leg.

So they finally get rid of the extraneous BC, only to (apparently) simultaneously strip Felicity of part of the duality for which she had been boosted (the LI portion of the equation). Then they go and add yet another BC. So they are really in a tough spot now -- they either have to get rid of one of these so that the other can fill the dual role as originally planned (which was not an inherently bad plan), or they have to figure out who to write for both of them -- which IMO works only if they split the role, with one character being the romantic partner and the other being the crimefighting partner. (Splitting is the less desirable outcome because it tends to flatten the character dimensions of both women -- their layers are reduced so people can clearly identify which one is which.)

I agree with you that the dual role was not problematic, and it definitely worked with FS in the role. I liked that premise & FS in the role. But for whatever reason TPTB disagreed and LL/BC had to stick around.

But I blame the writers because for whatever reason the idea of BC or the actual BC has been a mandated part of Arrow since s1. They may not have liked KC. They may not have liked being forced to include BC. They may have even preferred FS pairing. However, at the end of the day they had a show to write and that show included LL & BC. And now it includes another BC. It might not be their choosing, but we don't always get what we want. There are a lot of things I don't like about my job, but I have to make them work. I feel like they let the audience and the show down by not making it work with 2 female leads.

Would I prefer the show had shucked LL & BC in s2 or s3, probably. But again we don't always get what we want. And while we have a BC on the screen, I would prefer her written better than what they have in the last 5 seasons.

It's fine to blame other reasons for LL/BC's failure. There are many reasons it was not successful. But for me at the end of the day, it falls squarely on the writers because it's their words that failed to make her work. They might have had dud pieces, but still it's their job to put together a successful script with whatever pieces they are given, even if they disagree or are disappointed with some pieces.

[way2interested]

8 minutes ago, kismet said:

I think there are some that will say that the storylines for 1 or both of those female leads faltered or were not as good they could be because the other existed. It's a reasonable argument considering some of the storylines that existed for them in s3 & s4. The show chooses to write these female characters as adversaries instead of partners. It would have been amazing to have seen them bond over SL's death and come together as female partners in justice.

If you believe the premise that these writers have difficulty writing quality storylines for 2 females leads, than it is also reasonable to believe that in s6 the show will continue its pattern of having difficulty writing 2 female leads again. And if you are a fan of LL or TDD, then pushing her into the background in a marginalized story arc is a problem. Just like if they decide next season to do the same thing to FS, her fans might find that problematic.

It's not about FS/EBR leaving or dying. It's about the show's writers having trouble with what to do with 2 female leads on TA. We're not novices to Arrow's problems. If they have problems with 2 female leads again, it may impact FS next year instead of BC. That is reasonable speculation and concern. It may amount to nothing, but there is a consistent pattern in how the writers handle 2 female leads and it generally is problematic for at least one of the two.

I guess it's reasonable speculation/concern if that's the premise someone chooses to follow, but if not, then what? If someone follows that, then fine, and I'm sure some reviewers/press people do, but idk I never saw them writing for 2 female leads. I saw 1 (s1), then the splitting between 2-3 women because of transitioning (s2), 1 (s3), 1 (s4), and 1 (s5). I don't think they'll have trouble writing for 2 leads because I don't think they're going to be writing, nor have they really had for a while, for 2 leads. That's my premise, it just happens to be different.

[AyChihuahua]

Personally I think it all comes down to the original miscast. Think back over all the couples you've loved in tv shows. Most of them are, by real-life standards, pretty messed up. So I personally think the audience could have gotten past the gross sister-swapping if Oliver and Laurel had fantastic chemistry and were portrayed by excellent actors, especially with more consistent warmth from Laurel. I think the writers quickly got into a death spiral with KC as LL because she simply could not do what they wanted her to, so that left them scrambling to do SOMETHING with her (which she mostly also couldn't do, so...spiral). The pilot's the pilot, but I bet the writing for her started changing from whatever the original plan was very, very quickly.

[tv echo]

Yet another doomsday article (in a nutshell: falling ratings, Flash/metahumans ruined Arrow, and tired actors/writers)...

ARROW SEASON 5: THREE REASONS THAT SEASON 6 WILL BE THE LAST!
sivertime | February 21, 2017
http://sivertimes.com/arrow-season-5-three-reasons-that-season-6-will-be-the-last/23425

Edited February 22, 2017 by tv echo

[kismet]

13 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I guess it's reasonable speculation/concern if that's the premise someone chooses to follow, but if not, then what? If someone follows that, then fine, and I'm sure some reviewers/press people do, but idk I never saw them writing for 2 female leads. I saw 1 (s1), then the splitting between 2-3 women because of transitioning (s2), 1 (s3), 1 (s4), and 1 (s5). I don't think they'll have trouble writing for 2 leads because I don't think they're going to be writing, nor have they really had for a while, for 2 leads. That's my premise, it just happens to be different.

I was simply trying to speak for another viewpoint or premise. Agree that people see the show differently, but in this regard I think their POV of failing to write for multiple female leads is valid. If you only see one female lead, I agree with that premise. Because I too only see 1 female lead, when there should have been more because I also see the rampant failed & marginalized carcasses of stories for the other females. The problem is I think that premise is problematic. And enigmatic of why the show is struggling.

Personally, I think when you have multiple females on a show and the writers room is only capable of writing one female lead while marginalizing all the other females for me that is failure. I prefer more balanced portrayals. On a show like Arrow, there will always be one titular character but I feel like the writers room should be able to write more than one female lead and they can't. Look at what they did to Moira & then Sara, they killed them off the moment their stories were getting interesting. They balance more than one male character "lead". And even if they don't officially earmark them as leads, they have never marginalized the males as much as they have the females on Arrow. I need 2 hands to list the prominent male stories that have existed in each season for different males, while I barely need a few fingers for the females.

I understand the concern that a new female that has a comic legacy may displace an existing female character - who knows it might be Thea. Because whenever they bring in a new female character, another one has to be reduced that is the Arrow way. I don't agree with it, but that is not the point.

[Starfish35]

28 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Yet another doomsday article (in a nutshell: falling ratings, Flash/metahumans ruined Arrow, and tired actors/writers)...

ARROW SEASON 5: THREE REASONS THAT SEASON 6 WILL BE THE LAST!
sivertime | February 21, 2017
http://sivertimes.com/arrow-season-5-three-reasons-that-season-6-will-be-the-last/23425

I think they will get seven seasons.  Season seven might be shortened, depending on how much the ratings fall over the next season, but I think they will get at least seven seasons.  

[Cleanqueen]

I think one thing people keep forgetting when it comes to Katie Cassidy, is that I believe the EP's never wanted her. She was forced on to them by the network and they had to do with her. Also considering KC's head canon's that Oliver and Laurel are soulmates and her always adding some form of romantic element to her scenes with Oliver (think 4x17) might have made it difficult to accept that she could just be a fighting partner with Oliver. 

I don't think they want Dinah to be Oliver's partner on the field, yes his equal but not full partner in the same way Sara was. I think that would then render Diggle and the other useless newbies pointless. They'll always have group fighting scenes and she'll have her own stories with other people but I don't think they want to do the GA/BC team ups ppl think they will. I mean remember the Russia episode, they made a point of saying that they two went out together because he didn't want the team to know what he was up to highlighting the fact that the only way they could do solo missions is without the team knowing. Of course they'll probably give a nod here and there but I don't think it'll ever be as prominent as people think it will be, forget even  a future romance. 

[dtissagirl]

8 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I think they will get seven seasons.  Season seven might be shortened, depending on how much the ratings fall over the next season, but I think they will get at least seven seasons.  

I think it might be too early to link live ratings to a S7, because the new Netflix deal hasn't affected Arrow yet. What happens when S5 hits the platform -- now only 8 days after the finale -- might be the most defining thing re: how long will the WB be willing to keep Arrow alive.

[way2interested]

34 minutes ago, kismet said:

I was simply trying to speak for another viewpoint or premise. Agree that people see the show differently, but in this regard I think their POV of failing to write for multiple female leads is valid. If you only see one female lead, I agree with that premise. Because I too only see 1 female lead, when there should have been more because I also see the rampant failed & marginalized carcasses of stories for the other females. The problem is I think that premise is problematic. And enigmatic of why the show is struggling.

Personally, I think when you have multiple females on a show and the writers room is only capable of writing one female lead while marginalizing all the other females for me that is failure. I prefer more balanced portrayals. On a show like Arrow, there will always be one titular character but I feel like the writers room should be able to write more than one female lead and they can't. Look at what they did to Moira & then Sara, they killed them off the moment their stories were getting interesting. They balance more than one male character "lead". And even if they don't officially earmark them as leads, they have never marginalized the males as much as they have the females on Arrow. I need 2 hands to list the prominent male stories that have existed in each season for different males, while I barely need a few fingers for the females.

I understand the concern that a new female that has a comic legacy may displace an existing female character - who knows it might be Thea. Because whenever they bring in a new female character, another one has to be reduced that is the Arrow way. I don't agree with it, but that is not the point.

That's fine speaking for the other viewpoint, but I just don't see it as valid. A female lead implies that she gets more role/story than the other female characters. There can't be multiple female leads, especially when this isn't an ensemble and when the show's main character isn't any of these women. If a show has one main woman, then the others are subsequently supporting characters who shouldn't have as much of a role as the leads. I don't really see what you even mean by balancing more than one male "lead," since the only male "lead" is Oliver, no one else. Diggle never had a lead role (unless it was a themed episode for him which Laurel, Felicity, and Sara have also had), Roy never had a lead role, Curtis never had a lead role, etc. They've balanced male characters perhaps better, but to call all of the males and females "leads" who have to have a certain quota or such before they're considered "marginalized" is rather subjective already setting oneself up to be disappointed right off the bat. I'm not saying there's not anything to be disappointed at, but at the end of the day they can't treat all the females as leads. Some will have to be supporting and sometimes be perceived as not having enough.

I don't think there should be more than one female lead but rather a "lead" and "supporting." S4 did this fine, Laurel had stuff to do, Thea had stuff to do, Felicity had a bit more stuff to do because she was the female lead. The idea that the plots didn't pan out well is the idea that's really problematic, not that they should be writing more stuff for the other female characters. At the end of the day as of now, Tinah is a new recurring supporting character, and if she becomes a new regular she'll be a new supporting series regular unless they go through a transition season again. Sure someone can fear about that, but my view is that they probably don't want to do that again. They'll keep the supporting character a new supporting character and the other female and male supporting characters as supporting characters. 

[LeighAn]

I feel like people panic about Tinah and then...nothing happens. 

There's so far been no "testing" of any romance- apart from Juliana looking like a cat on heat, but nothing on Olivers part. And the writing isn't supporting a romantic tease as yet. 

She hasn't done anything really on consequence since she's been on the show and has been treated no differently in screen time then Wild Dog and Curtis.

Shes been rushed into the team so fast that it's left no room to watch her slowly develop. 

And she hasn't become this uber popular break out character that overshadows Felicity.

I just don't think there is really anything for people to panic about or have concerns about. I mean if she had the name of any other hero would there be this much discussion about intentions?

And I still don't think the writers give up crap about canon compliance any more then they did the last four seasons this season. Putting lots and lots of comic characters in for visibility yes. But being 100% comic accurate no. The only reason Dinah has all the canon check marks is because the writers had to do something drastic precisely because they were replacing an exsisting canon character with another character. 

[kismet]

@way2interested I think my point is valid. There is evidence to support it. I think we just expect and want different things from the show. I think it's possible to have more than one female lead. And if I agreed to your show, than perhaps we shouldn't have any female leads. Because so far, Arrow has really struggled with their female leads when they are not writing their LIs parts. And if you look at s5, that is what they did. They restored OQ as the LEAD, and everybody else is supporting. Which perhaps is the best direction for the show, since they can't expand their writing skills to include an ensemble in a way that is more than stuff to do.

I agree your viewpoint as valid, I just don't agree with it. And I think it's best if we just leave it as that.

[way2interested]

Just now, kismet said:

@way2interested I think my point is valid. There is evidence to support it. I think we just expect and want different things from the show. I think it's possible to have more than one female lead. And if I agreed to your show, than perhaps we shouldn't have any female leads. Because so far, Arrow has really struggled with their female leads when they are not writing their LIs parts. And if you look at s5, that is what they did. They restored OQ as the LEAD, and everybody else is supporting. Which perhaps is the best direction for the show, since they can't expand their writing skills to include an ensemble in a way that is more than stuff to do.

I agree your viewpoint as valid, I just don't agree with it. And I think it's best if we just leave it as that.

I didn't mean to say your viewpoint isn't valid, just that I didn't find it as valid (like a person being afraid of earthquakes in Mississippi, it's valid to be afraid of earthquakes, but I don't find it as valid to be afraid of them there), and I apologize if it came off as being condescending or anything. I never said I didn't want any female leads nor did I say there shouldn't be, but I also don't agree with your viewpoint, so it's fine, we can drop it.  

[lemotomato]

I keep seeing claims of a hard push by TPTB for Tinah, but she's been onscreen for 3 whole episodes and JH hasn't done an interview with any media outlet except an obscure blog no one has ever heard of. So how hard is the push, really?

[thegirlsleuth]

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I keep seeing claims of a hard push by TPTB for Tinah, but she's been onscreen for 3 whole episodes and JH hasn't done an interview with any media outlet except an obscure blog no one has ever heard of. So how hard is the push, really?

This is true, although I will be interested to see what happens if she takes the Black Canary name.  We might see a push after she has the name,

[Starfish35]

Just now, thegirlsleuth said:

This is true, although I will be interested to see what happens if she takes the Black Canary name.  We might see a push after she has the name,

Yeah we'll see what happens once she's in costume.

[LeighAn]

4 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I keep seeing claims of a hard push by TPTB for Tinah, but she's been onscreen for 3 whole episodes and JH hasn't done an interview with any media outlet except an obscure blog no one has ever heard of. So how hard is the push, really?

I mean she may get interviews after this ep now that she'll be suited up but I'm not counting that as a garuntee.

But I mean just the fact that they rushed her on the team in one episode and have given her no real story threads makes me think they have her there just to say they have her there.

I feel like we all put way more thought into her then TPTB have as far. 

[apinknightmare]

Waiting until she's in costume would be so weird (not that I'm discounting the idea - at all) since there isn't any secret that she's going to be Black Canary. Oliver explicitly stated he was looking for a new one, they marketed her in the previews as the new one, like...how very anti-climactic and typical Arrow at this point.

[thegirlsleuth]

I also won't discount that Juliana might be getting the Chico treatment, where she punishes anyone who's not Katie Cassidy. 

[lemotomato]

EK was doing interviews with outlets like Collider even before Curtis appeared on screen last year. He didn't become Mr Terrific until this year. Just saying.

[dtissagirl]

Wild Dong ate all the media push.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

I thought Diggle was Oliver's main partner. 

I never heard a peep from EPs claiming the new BC will become a female lead now. They just repeating the company line. That BC is a part of the GA universe. Its not the first time they did this but what we got on screen was something completely different. 

Right now the writing for Tinah isn't as a new female lead.  Anything could change, but it hasn't yet.  I also can see a place for her as not a new female lead in terms of LI or even closer partner in crime fighting with Oliver, but as a trusted Captain that would free up Oliver to be GA on his terms and then she'd look after the noobs.  And Diggle could go where ever he's needed in the story.  

BC has in a lot of animated stuff I've seen been a trainer and mentor, so that's a role I can see her taking up. 

[LeighAn]

This is the most hilarious article ever. Never change Chris Hayner:

http://screenertv.com/television/arrow-the-sin-eater-susan-williams-thea-felicity/

For Those not wanting to give clicks- he accuses Team Arrow of being fascists for what they did to Susan.

[Starfish35]

This really seemed to strike a nerve with the TV journalists for some reason.  Matt Mitovich also had a fit about it.  

[wonderwall]

Nevermind. Leighan beat me to it haha

Edited February 23, 2017 by wonderwall

[Trisha]

3 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

This really seemed to strike a nerve with the TV journalists for some reason.  Matt Mitovich also had a fit about it.  

I do like how commenters in the TV Line recap were schooling Matt about when exactly Susan was shown to be shady. He seemed to soften his stance (somewhat) about how she went into the relationship with good intentions.

I get that for journalists, plagiarism accusations are the kiss of death but last night's rush to condemn Thea by male journos was gross. 

[Morrigan2575]

20 minutes ago, Trisha said:

I do like how commenters in the TV Line recap were schooling Matt about when exactly Susan was shown to be shady. He seemed to soften his stance (somewhat) about how she went into the relationship with good intentions.

I get that for journalists, plagiarism accusations are the kiss of death but last night's rush to condemn Thea by male journos was gross. 

Not just male journalists seems the divide falls along gender lines.

[theOAfc]

40 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Not just male journalists seems the divide falls along gender lines.

Yeah i mean there are those male fans who will never see anything wrong in oliver's actions.  This is once again the case of fans supporting the male superhero no matter what VS the rest who question things using critical thinking. If it was the other way around you bet they would defend Oliver and call Thea/Felicity not just stupid but selfish for jeopardizing the whole team's secret identity by trusting a shady reporter. Cause Oliver always knows best ...

Big example is Matt's(from TV line) tweet about how Oliver didnt like what happened implying we(the viewers) are supposed to stand with Oliver's perception of things. 

https://twitter.com/MattMitovich/status/834587067493539840

Quote

Matt: How icky is what Thea (and Felicity) did to Susan? #Arrow

Fan: I don't see why this poll was even necessary? Thea and Felicity did the right thing. End of discussion.

Matt: Funny, Oliver didn't think so. At all

Edited February 23, 2017 by theOAfc

[tv echo]

‘Arrow’ recap: 'The Sin Eater’
SARA NETZLEY FEBRUARY 22, 2017 AT 11:32PM EST
http://ew.com/recap/arrow-season-5-episode-14/

Quote

A trio of familiar faces return to menace the good people of Star City tonight in what turns out to be an underwhelming team-up, while Oliver struggles to keep his personal and professional lives from capsizing.
*  *  *
“You just blew up her life!” Oliver yells. “Who does that to a person?” Um, I don’t know, someone who loves you and did what’s necessary to protect her brother’s superhero secret identity from the journalist who lied and manipulated her for a hatchet piece on said mayor brother? I’m not sure I’ve ever disliked Oliver more than in this episode, honestly.

And now we come to the roundelay of blame. Quentin blames himself for Liza embracing her bad side again.  Oliver blames himself for killing Billy. Quentin argues that Billy’s death is Prometheus’ fault, not Oliver’s, and Thea tells Quentin, “You’ve got to stop taking responsibility for other people’s sins.” OMG, we get it, Arrow! Everybody’s a sin eater on this show!
*  *  *
Then Oliver continues his questionable decision making and confesses to Pike how Prometheus manipulated the Green Arrow into killing Billy, then Adrian covered it up to avoid a citywide panic. He asks Pike to let Green Arrow be the hero that the city needs, and it seems like any halfway decent cop should be like, “Wait a second, how do you know all this? Are you the Green Arrow, Mayor Queen, given your similar age, build, height, and stubbled jaw?” Alas, this doesn’t happen.
*  *  *
They arrest all the thugs but leave Team Arrow alone. Green Arrow thanks Pike and repeats Oliver’s earlier words about regretting his role in Billy’s death for the rest of his life. OMG, Pike can see your perfect stubble in your tiny mask, dude. Seriously, you’re basically a serial killer who’s at the taunting-police-with-letters-and-begging-to-be-caught stage. Oliver, baby, do you want to be unmasked? Is this what’s happening here? Do you need a Snickers?
*  *  *
Next, Oliver finds Thea, who apologizes again. He tells her she made a choice — likely the same choice their mother would’ve made. (This is not a compliment.) Then he says he’s less worried about Susan and more worried about his little sister. OLIVER. She protected your identity. Dial back the judgey face, son.
*  *  *
Overall, this was a frustrating Arrow episode. Not only was Oliver yelling at and sympathizing with the wrong people here, but this team-up of three great female villains from seasons past was completely under baked. China White had like three lines, and Cupid didn’t get to spin out any of her usual Oliver obsessions. I would have loved to see more of that trio, scheming and bickering and fighting, and less of the Susan/Oliver/Bratva/Billy/Thea blame-game-a-palooza. It just feels a bit like a wasted opportunity, alas.
*  *  *
-Honestly, it gave me a little shiver to see Dinah masked and giving a canary cry, and it was genuinely touching to see Quentin encouraging her to continue Laurel’s mission. Are you ready for her to don the rest of the outfit?
-But seriously, can anyone muster sympathy for Susan? Because I seem to be fresh out.

Edited February 23, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

A friendly reminder from Arrow: Never, ever mess with Thea Queen
By Alasdair Wilkins  Feb 23, 2017  12:40 AM
http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/friendly-reminder-arrow-never-ever-mess-thea-queen-250861

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It’s perceptive then for Arrow to have Oliver reject Thea’s initial claim that she screwed up. As Oliver says, Thea made a choice, and she knew exactly what she was doing. Even if Thea doesn’t understand precisely how bad it is to frame a reporter for a plagiarism scandal on that sort of scale—she basically just sent out Susan’s journalistic burn notice—she absolutely knew the purpose of her stunt was, as she put it to Lance in the most delightfully smug way, to take out the trash. Left to the viewer’s interpretation is just how much Thea’s personal enmity for Susan factored into her scorched-earth strategy. And if that is a factor, then her motivations are so utterly that of the disgusted little sister: Thea might not hate all of Oliver’s girlfriends, but goodness does she hate this particular girlfriend. And that too sounds pretty Moira of her, if she did let her disapproval of Oliver’s life decisions guide her own approach here. It can sometimes be frustrating when a show is a little too obvious about who the protagonist is and how all the other characters make their decisions based on that one person—Arrow can certainly be guilty of that—but it’s a legitimately great character detail how much Moira and now Thea operate on the assumption that Oliver must be saved from himself.

And, in fairness, Oliver is such a damn moron sometimes. Mostly, he’s a damn moron whenever romance is involved. On balance, it’s probably marginally better for Oliver to work on the assumption that he can find love while balancing his demanding double life as a vigilante and a mayor instead of, you know, just sort of aimlessly moping around the Arrow Cave, but it takes a special kind of idiocy to believe he had “handled” the situation when his girlfriend—a journalist, no less!—asked him if he is the Green Arrow. It’s legitimately laudable that Oliver has reached a point in his development where he can see a real distinction between the man and the mask, but he lets that hard-earned clarity of self cloud his judgment when dealing with everyone else.
*  *  *
... Stephen Amell has long been a major asset for the show, but a particular development this season is how he’s able to convey Oliver’s newfound emotional maturity, at least when love interests aren’t involved. “The Sin-Eater” doesn’t do anything we didn’t already know Arrow could do, and it steers perhaps a tad too readily into some of the show’s sillier conceits. But no matter: Like pretty much every other episode this season, the episode is a rollicking good time, an entertaining slice of superhero pulp. And with business set to pick up next week as Oliver stares down impeachment, that’s more than enough to keep things humming along.

Edited February 23, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

‘Arrow’ Recap: Star City Gets Its Own Legion of Doom
Robert Chan  February 23, 2017
https://www.yahoo.com/tv/arrow-recap-star-city-gets-its-own-legion-of-doom-125505072.html

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Is this the end of Susan’s arc? The revelation of all her research was building up a real head of steam; if this is how it ends, it’s pretty anti-climactic. It’s hard to know how to feel because it was never clearly established whether she was sleeping with him for a story or fell in love with him despite the incriminating things she learned about him. That being said, normal people have been turned into supervillains for less.

And what about Thea? This is as chillingly cold-blooded as anything she did while possessed by the bloodlust of the Lazarus Pit. If she had done it as sweet payback for Susan raking her over the coals earlier in the season, at least it could be written off as a crime of passion, but she basically destroyed a woman’s life for political expediency. Although, come to think of it, maybe she’s finally found her calling. What politician wouldn’t want a trained (character) assassin as their chief of staff?
*  *  *
... Look, Ollie, if you’re trying to hide your identity from the head of the ACU, maybe don’t say exactly the same thing to him as Green Arrow as you do as mayor. That voice modulator isn’t going to do any good if you keep plagiarizing yourself like that.

Edited February 23, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow 5.14 Review – “The Sin-Eater”
February 22, 2017 | Posted by Michael Haigis
http://411mania.com/movies/arrow-5-14-review-the-sin-eater/

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“The Sin Eater” isn’t a full episode of Arrow, so much as it is a sixty minute diversion, another loop in the show’s late season holding pattern.
*  *  *
If you read last week’s review, or watched that episode, you’ll notice that Arrow’s previous episode was similarly divorced from the momentum of the main prometheus storyline. Where that installment tried, feebly, to enter the gun-rights dialogue, this episode settled on yet another largely uninteresting and easily overcome obstacle for Oliver.

The emotional through line in “The Sin Eater” was not as coherent or consistent as the best episodes the series has to offer. Like many weeks, this one made the argument that the present is largely a punitive state, determined by the past. Oliver faces unprecedented difficulty, we are made to believe, because he accidentally killed Malone. That we saw that happen, and also understand that it was entirely unavoidable and hardly The Green Oliver’s fault, in many ways undercuts the gravity of this framework – Oliver’s pained, constipated facial expressions be damned.
*  *  *
Logic makes this plot odd, and it isn’t helped at all by the way Arrow has told the story. Two weeks ago, an episode ended with Susan conspiring to discover Arrow’s identity, minutes after she was laying bed tracing Oliver’s Bratva tattoos with her finger and asking too-personal questions. The show may not have been framing her as nefarious – ambitious maybe – but it certainly was making the argument that she was operating, manipulating even, without her lover’s best interests in mind.

If we believe what has mostly been shown to us – that if Susan didn’t begin her relationship with Oliver as a fact-finding mission, it quickly became one for her – the moral outrage coming from Oliver in “Sin Eater” didn’t make a ton of sense (as is often the case). When he discovers that Thea and Felicity have taken extreme measures to protect his identity, he berates both of them separately, dropping predictable cliches like “I Care About Her”, and “She wouldn’t do that to me.”
*  *  *
I shouldn’t backseat write, but there is a far, far more compelling question buried under all the cheap moralizing in this episode. That question: “What are the personal costs of being the watchful guardian of a metropolis?” Or, more specifically “Doesn’t the choice to don a cloak, cape, cowl, etc. mean you might have to destroy a lover’s life to protect the greater good?” Superheroes are essentially the greater good. They are the big picture, they are the forest. So, what happens when one of the trees becomes extremely problematic.

Oliver should know this. Also, he should realistically be upset that his girlfriend had been compiling a confidential dossier about his real identity, and it doesn’t seem as though it would have been a very difficult choice for her to publicize the info.

But writing characters as human beings is not Arrow’s forte, generally. So what we are treated to, instead, is another reductive moral framework propped up by cliche.

Edited February 23, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

ARROW: "THE SIN-EATER" REVIEW
Jesse Scheeden   Feb. 22, 2017
http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/02/23/arrow-the-sin-eater-review?abthid=58aee2279a13ef8a6e000006

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Basically, there was a lot about this episode that didn’t work. However, there were some intriguing developments on Ollie front as his relationship with Susan took an unexpected turn. By all appearances, Susan seemed to be a real wolf in sheep’s clothing. Waiting for her chance to expose Ollie’s secret to the world and cash in. Instead, she confronted him about that secret and wound up having her career trashed as a result. She seemed genuinely hurt, both at seeing her career crumble and at being lied to by her boyfriend. So does this imply she was more heavily invested in her romance with Ollie than it seemed? Or is this all part of Prometheus’ labyrinthine plot to destroy Oliver Queen?

Either way, both Thea and Felicity got their hands pretty dirty this week. Felicity’s role in the framing of Susan was more or less glossed over, but ideally it’s not something that will be forgotten. It’s clear that Felicity’s arc during the latter half of the season involves her being corrupted by the absolute power afforded by her new hacker resources. Her judgment seems questionable lately, and sooner or later she’ll have to account for her digital misdeeds just as Ollie is paying the price for his use of lethal force.

As for Thea, it’s nice to see her take a more active role in the conflict after a season that’s seen her mainly sit on the sidelines. At times it’s enough to question whether Thea still serves a useful role on the series. Perhaps she does. The episode closed out with a strong scene between Ollie and Thea as Ollie reflected on just how much his little sister is turning out to be like her mother. It’s a sobering revelation given the often questionable choices Moira made during the course of the first two seasons.

Edited February 23, 2017 by tv echo

[kismet]

Haven't watched the episode or really read the reviews.... I did see what a couple people said about OQ & TQ, shame he chose reporter over his sis. He really is the worst this time of year.

As for legitimate reviewers,  I do feel bad for them and reporters at this time. It's a really rough time for them with the whole fake news and attacking of media outlets. That being said, im guessing the situation was different and they probably should not have gone after Thea. But I do understand them being sensitive to plagiarism claims.

[tv echo]

Apparently Kayti Burt returned from her 2-week vacation wearing rose-colored glasses...

"Arrow” Recap: “The Sin-Eater” – Prometheus Tightens the Noose
BY KAYTI BURT      FEBRUARY 22, 2017
http://collider.com/arrow-recap-the-sin-eater/

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“The Sin-Eater” was one of those Arrow Season 5 episodes that we have come to know and love: an installment that both reminds us of Seasons 1 and 2 of the superhero show, while using its full 5-year history to reach new thematic depths.
*  *  *
Oliver is right to be worried because Thea’s actions don’t seem solely motivated by a desire to help Oliver. (Because does pissing Susan Williams off really seem like the way to deescalate this situation?) Like her mother before her, Thea is motivated by her love of power and manipulation. She is a schemer and that isn’t always a bad thing. Her scheming has been used for good, too, but, here, she seems to revel in the feeling of taking Susan down. (She’s probably still smarting from Susan’s betrayal when they first met. A Queen woman never forgets.)
*  *  *
— Seeing Thea and Felicity reunite was pretty adorable. We need more scenes like this one, though I was disappointed to see that their plan to save Oliver was so bad after loving the way they teamed up to save him from his obvious blindspots.
*  *  *
— Felicity continues to be weirdly emotionally divorced from the Billy Malone issue. Like, no one even mentions that they were in a serious relationship anymore and she doesn’t really react when his grisly murder at the hands of her ex-boyfriend is brought up. This is weird, right?

— I don’t quite believe that China White would let Liza Warner take charge. She doesn’t seem like a follower. Also, was it weird to anyone else that Cupid didn’t flirt with Oliver once?

Edited February 23, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Review: ‘Arrow’ Plays Politics With All-Female Supervillains for ‘The Sin-Eater’
Kevin Fitzpatrick | Feb. 22, 2017
http://screencrush.com/arrow-the-sin-eater-review/

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On the one hand, it was smart to bring together a coalition of recurring characters like China White (Kelly Hu), Cupid (Amy Gumenick) and Liza Warner (Rutina Wesley), as neither could necessarily carry their own episode at such a crucial juncture for the season. What’s strange is that the least-recurring Warner was the only villain whose history ended up woven into the plot; with the added stretch of invoking Quentin’s partnership with Darhk last year at a time the character has moved onto vastly different issues. The hour’s running theme had one character taking on the sins of another (though really, when is guilt not the show’s most prevalent device), and neither Warner nor her compatriots felt like the best representation of that.
*  *  *
Such a half-baked plot driver wasn’t nearly so interesting as the threads it danced around anyway, like Oliver’s genuine conundrum at Susan potentially uncovering his secret identity, or the extremes Felicity and Thea went to handle it.I’m less inclined to buy any more of the SCPD turning against Oliver, and I’d doubt it the writers have the clearest handle on whether Susan represents an earnest reporter, or someone wrapped up in all the Russian intrigue, but I do appreciate that Thea’s manipulations ended up an echo of her mother (we miss you, Moira). The conflict between Oliver and Thea didn’t quite resolve by the hour’s end, but nonetheless garnered some intense performances from Stephen Amell and Willa Holland; keeping Lance engaged emotionally as well.
*  *  *
Hey, Oliver has a fancy wrist thingy. And Curtis has a distracting new costume. With … red boots?
*  *  *
Still picking up some weird Quentin-Thea vibes, as well as Diggle-Dinah.

[tv echo]

Arrow Season 5 Episode 14 Review: “The Sin-Eater” 
Chris King+  February 22, 2017
http://www.tvovermind.com/the-cw/arrow/arrow-season-5-episode-14-review-sin-eater

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So is Oliver wrong to demonize Thea while defending Susan? Yes and no. It’s clear that Thea’s actions in this situation aren’t entirely pure of heart; she wanted to damage Susan in a way that would be irrevocable not only because it would protect Oliver but because it would also hopefully remove her from their lives. She wanted to hurt Susan, and the fact that she didn’t consult Oliver before taking action is wrong; she should have talked to him before doing what she did. Furthermore, Susan’s career being ruined partially due to Oliver’s Green Arrow identity serves as another reminder to him of what Prometheus has said: he ruins the lives of everyone he touches. Part of his anger towards Thea here could be because he’s been trying so hard to prove Prometheus wrong throughout Season 5, and I can’t say that I blame Oliver too much for wanting his sister to be a better person when he himself is trying to be one as well.

However, it’s also pretty clear that Oliver isn’t using his brain to its full capacity. To chastise Thea without giving any thought to Susan’s actions (that she confronted him about being the Green Arrow, that she had so much evidence linking him to the Green Arrow persona, and that she had obviously been using their relationship as a way to further investigate him) is absolutely ridiculous. I understand that Oliver is trying to see the best in people this season and be more of a lighter and good presence in the world, but he is letting whatever feelings he has for Susan completely cloud his judgment here. Plus, it’s disheartening to see him turn so quickly on Thea without even acknowledging the fact that she was trying to protect him. Her going as far as she does against Susan ties in thematically with with everything else going on in this episode (it is titled “The Sin-Eater”), but Oliver’s lack of compassion for his own sister is disappointing and the one part of tonight’s episode that I thought was a little too far-fetched.
*  *  *
Some really wonderful moments between Dinah and the rest of Team Arrow in this episode. The two best ones, though, are when Felicity presents her with Laurel’s mask and when Quentin gives her his blessing to take on the Black Canary mantle, telling her that Laurel wanted someone to “carry on” in her place.
*  *  *
Felicity’s snark when she’s hacking into Susan’s computer is absolutely one of the best moments from this episode. I loved it.

Edited February 23, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

'Arrow' Recap: It's a Ladies Night ... of Crime 
Wednesday, February 22, 2017   Derek Stauffer
http://www.buddytv.com/articles/arrow/arrow-recap-the-team-hunts-dow-63398.aspx

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It's an incredibly big step over the line but because Thea is doing it to Susan and because Thea is so channeling the wickedness of her mother, Moira, I can't help but love her actions. Oliver, understandably, is a little upset that his baby sister has ruined his girlfriend's life, even if that girlfriend is the wettest of blankets. Oliver expresses his concerns to Thea and blah, blah, blah. I don't care! I need more Thea inheriting the Dark Queen throne that her mother vacated because of her death. Still not sure about "Dark Felicity" but I'm popping the popcorn waiting for more "Dark Thea," especially a Dark Thea not borne of a Lazarus Pit. 

[tv echo]

Arrow season 5 episode 14 review: Sin-Eater
Tyler McCarthy  Feb 23, 2017
http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/arrow/47488/arrow-season-5-episode-14-review-sin-eater

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Yes, Oliver killed Malone, but other than introducing Bruce Wayne, there’s no one on Earth that wouldn’t have been fooled. Arrow does a lot with high-concept villains and city-ending plots that are very much responsible for its enduring fanbase. However, after five seasons, the showrunners have not gotten out of their funk of manufacturing emotional arcs out of past insanity. In the comic books, we can turn our back on villains of the week with ease. The show, however, makes us marinate with it for several episodes before there’s any catharsis (or we can move on to something better).

If that’s going to be the formula, the showrunners might need to stop building back doors to protect character integrity like Lance being forced to work for Darhk, Diggle being tricked by the government, or, yes, Oliver not actually being responsible for Malone’s death. Honestly, at times the only one making sense in this episode was Thea, which brings us to the biggest highlight of this week.
*  *  *
Oliver has been dating Susan Williams, his least-shipped relationship to date. Not only is she just not Felicity, but she’s been actively investigating him only to finally discover that he is the Green Arrow and didn’t spend the full five years stranded on Lian Yu. She confronted him with that knowledge this episode, which was a very boring way for this massive bombshell that’s been building over the course of 14 episodes to come out, because he easily deflected the question.
*  *  *
Sadly, the ladies doing a good job by being onscreen was it for the night. Those hoping to get a dose of girl power were sadly left lacking. There was no element of bonding between the ladies, therefore making them incredibly less formidable compared to Team Arrow. As for their big plan, they just beat up three groups of thugs and found a stash of money left behind by Tobias Church… The end. Perhaps it’s a matter of expectations rather than delivery. With The Flash taking on a gorilla-packed two-episode arc this week, and Legends Of Tomorrow bringing the Legion of Doom to life, maybe people expected more from the returning trio than a one-off story.

Edited February 23, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

ACCOUNTABLE: ARROW 5X14 REVIEW (THE SIN-EATER) 
jbuffyangel    FEBRUARY 24, 2017 @ 02:23
http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/157644841288/accountable-arrow-5x14-review-the-sin-eater

[tv echo]

A jail break, cover-up and some heavy-handed themes in the latest Arrow
Trent Moore  Feb 23, 2017 
http://www.blastr.com/2017-2-23/dc-arrow-the-sin-eater-episode-recap

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The lingering mystery of Oliver's reporter girlfriend's investigation into his real identity also hit this week as he lies to her when confronted about his vigilante escapades. Her suspicions are pretty much confirmed when Thea has Felicity plant incriminating stuff on her laptop to have her fired for plagiarism. This story seemed like it was going somewhere early, but no, she was apparently just a reporter dating the focus of her story. Umm, yeah. Ok, that does look pretty bad.
*  *  *
In case you didn't catch it, this episode was titled "The Sin-Eater." If you did miss it, you obviously weren't paying attention, because they beat that theme over our heads like a ton of sin-soaked bricks. The Russian story hits that note explicitly while Quentin is guilt-ridden with taking the blame for Liza Warner's jail break. Then there's Oliver, who is always a gaping wound of blame and guilt. Look, I'm glad to see the show stay on theme. But try aiming for a bit more subtlety next time, guys. It goes a long way.
*  *  *
Also: Glad to see Dinah Drake join the SCPD. With Quentin in the mayor's office, it provides the team with a connection back to law enforcement. But why does the entire media apparatus of Star City turn out for a random police officer swearing-in? This is, like, a huge city. TV stations don't typically turn out for every swearing-in for every new cop the town adds. That just felt really random.