Clock Tower Theater: Fanfic, Fan Music Videos and Art

[way2interested]

Just now, Angel12d said:

It is literally like the balloon has been popped. Fandom (or maybe just the Olicity fandom) is like the shrivelled deflated balloon in the corner. Haha.

Which is slightly strange to me, since quite honestly 315 was a worse episode than 505 was, but it just goes to show that context and PR do in fact matter, especially for morale. 

[Thundercatmary]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Which is slightly strange to me, since quite honestly 315 was a worse episode than 505 was, but it just goes to show that context and PR do in fact matter, especially for morale. 

I also think a lot of what people are upset about really goes all the way back to 4b and the BMD, and are just now getting to the point where they've had enough.

[SmallScreenDiva]

19 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Oh damn. I was counting on her channel so I don't have to watch the episodes anymore. 

Looks like she's just behind. She posted this on Twitter: (of course she hasn't seen the last 2 eps so who knows what the reaction is going to be)

Edited November 4, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Which is slightly strange to me, since quite honestly 315 was a worse episode than 505 was, but it just goes to show that context and PR do in fact matter, especially for morale. 

I don't find it strange at all. O/F are both gonna be sleeping with other people this time for who knows how long, PR has been very alienating and MG just insulted and dismissed shippers as irrelevant to their viewership. I think it's a combination of many factors, not just the episode tbh. 

[Thundercatmary]

2 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Looks like she's just behind. She posted this on Twitter: (of course she hasn't seen the last 2 eps so who knows what the reaction is going to be)

yes good news for me, if i could post a happy gif i would lol

[Chaser]

I used to ship Klaroline. Klaus got Haley pregnant, Klaus want to a spin off and took Haley with him, Klaus got a Caroline Copy LI (actually repeating Klaroline beats with Cami). Caroline moved on with Stefan. They did the never say never with Klaroline but they basically wrote if off.

That fandom still had more positivity then Olicity. 

I don't think I've ever seen a shipper fandom more hopeless and it's the weirdest thing because the show is writing the normal beats of a endgame TV romance. 

I blame it on the BS from the PR and the stupidity of how far they were taken in S4. Oh and the writers who can't write.

[Thundercatmary]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I used to ship Klaroline. Klaus got Haley pregnant, Klaus want to a spin off and took Haley with him, Klaus got a Caroline Copy LI (actually repeating Klaroline beats with Cami). Caroline moved on with Stefan. They did the never say never with Klaroline but they basically wrote if off.

That fandom still had more positivity then Olicity. 

I don't think I've ever seen a shipper fandom more hopeless and it's the weirdest thing because the show is writing the normal beats of a endgame TV romance. 

I blame it on the BS from the PR and the stupidity of how far they were taken in S4. Oh and the writers who can't write.

I agree and honestly i sometimes side eye myself but i think it's like you said, with the PR and interviews etc it amplifies everything.

[apinknightmare]

I need to know how some of this fic ends, and if MG and Co's shitty plotting and writing and showrunnig ruin that for me too, SO. HELP. ME. 

[Mellowyellow]

12 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I used to ship Klaroline. Klaus got Haley pregnant, Klaus want to a spin off and took Haley with him, Klaus got a Caroline Copy LI (actually repeating Klaroline beats with Cami). Caroline moved on with Stefan. They did the never say never with Klaroline but they basically wrote if off.

That fandom still had more positivity then Olicity. 

I don't think I've ever seen a shipper fandom more hopeless and it's the weirdest thing because the show is writing the normal beats of a endgame TV romance. 

I blame it on the BS from the PR and the stupidity of how far they were taken in S4. Oh and the writers who can't write.

Omg I shipped Klaroline too but Klaroline never made crazy promises or had "you are my always" grand gestures so it didn't sting. I just accepted it wasn't going to happen, no bitterness. Plus Stefan was a damn good LI! He does not look like a bearded lady! Much easier to accept.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Mellowyellow

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I don't find it strange at all. O/F are both gonna be sleeping with other people this time for who knows how long, PR has been very alienating and MG just insulted and dismissed shippers as irrelevant to their viewership. I think it's a combination of many factors, not just the episode tbh. 

I just meant strange in the case of taken in a vacuum, I see 315 as a more discouraging episode (Oliver not even listening or talking to Felicity, Ray and Felicity having sex, saving Malcolm, etc.). But, given context (coming after 4b, MG's tweet, displeasing spoilers/rumors) and PR (nothing promising for Olicity, nothing exciting for the main characters, the alienating nature of all of the promo), 505 is seen as a bigger disappointment/fandom morale killer, like you're saying.

[calliope1975]

It's worse for me because in S3, they hadn't gotten together yet. So, all that stuff was typical stall stuff. It was after they got together and were almost married and had a fake marriage with real vows, and then are just acting like that's all whatevs that's got me bummed out. Even when they eventually reunite, which I'm 100% sure they will, I'll still be upset about 5a and we'll see about 5b. Plus, TPTB being complete dicks. There's that, too. 

I don't even want to read the fix it fics that are being written right now. I need straight up AU's. The AU-er the better. 

[Mellowyellow]

4 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

 

I don't even want to read the fix it fics that are being written right now. I need straight up AU's. The AU-er the better. 

I'm getting close to that line where I wonder how long before I can't read AUs either!

On that note I'm re reading all of Supersillydorky06's AU fics to try and cheer myself up!

Have you read http://archiveofourown.org/works/7931917/chapters/18128824

It's sooooooo good! She updated and I was like "Meh after 505 I can't even read this." But then I read it and it was still awesome!

[calliope1975]

39 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm getting close to that line where I wonder how long before I can't read AUs either!

On that note I'm re reading all of Supersillydorky06's AU fics to try and cheer myself up!

Have you read http://archiveofourown.org/works/7931917/chapters/18128824

It's sooooooo good! She updated and I was like "Meh after 505 I can't even read this." But then I read it and it was still awesome!

Thanks for the rec! I need some good fics to cheer me up. :D

[kismet]

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

I just meant strange in the case of taken in a vacuum, I see 315 as a more discouraging episode (Oliver not even listening or talking to Felicity, Ray and Felicity having sex, saving Malcolm, etc.). But, given context (coming after 4b, MG's tweet, displeasing spoilers/rumors) and PR (nothing promising for Olicity, nothing exciting for the main characters, the alienating nature of all of the promo), 505 is seen as a bigger disappointment/fandom morale killer, like you're saying.

315 was like falling down the stairs and breaking your leg right before summer. You know you won't be able to do all the fun stuff you planned. Perhaps that trip to the really great beach will have to be postponed. It was disheartening but it didn't kill your enthusiasm, you just had to find other ways to do use your free time and energy. It was actually after s3, that I became more interested in fan fic. Fix-it, AU, different POV. The sadness & frustration on the show lead me to Fan Fics. I needed another outlet, while the show worked through its typical stalling.

The way things are now I can't say I feel the same. The current status of the show, the BTS and the social media has lead me to drop most of my fan fics. 505 wasn't the worse episode, and it had glimmers of Olicity hope, but combined with the writers' social media, I do think it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

S5 in my perspective was like when you went to the doctor for that chronic fatigue & cough and thought it was a cold only to find out you had a serious disease. And the Arrow Writers response to the frustrations is like when you have follow-up scans and find out its only getting worse, perhaps even terminal with little to no treatment options. For me, that is not necessarily something that inspires creativity. In some it does, but a lot of people spend a lot of time in anger, denial or shock. I think eventually some people may come back and find a creative way to work through their frustrations, but I don't think that time is coming as quickly as  some might like.

Right now, I think the fandom is grieving. And we are all going through Kubler-Ross in our own way. Hopefully, things can get better. I really used to enjoy the fun of the Arrow fandom and fanfics. And this board was always great to interact with.

[Midnight Lullaby]

7 hours ago, way2interested said:

I just meant strange in the case of taken in a vacuum, I see 315 as a more discouraging episode (Oliver not even listening or talking to Felicity, Ray and Felicity having sex, saving Malcolm, etc.). But, given context (coming after 4b, MG's tweet, displeasing spoilers/rumors) and PR (nothing promising for Olicity, nothing exciting for the main characters, the alienating nature of all of the promo), 505 is seen as a bigger disappointment/fandom morale killer, like you're saying.

I think the problem is also that is two years later..people are getting tired IMO. In season 3 everyone was aware that we had to go through rag pampers to get to the good times..now we had the good times and they took them away..starting the bad part again it's pretty depressing, LOL.

[Luckylyn]

Olicity got me making videos again after a long hiatus but lately I haven't been feeling motivated to finish the video I've been working on.  I don't enjoy angst especially when it's poorly written and so I 'm feeling uninspired.  

[arjumand]

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think the problem is also that is two years later..people are getting tired IMO. In season 3 everyone was aware that we had to go through rag pampers to get to the good times..now we had the good times and they took them away..starting the bad part again it's pretty depressing, LOL.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said in the spoiler discussion thread. In Season 3, we'd never had anything, so we were happy with the crumbs thrown our way. This season, in the past we've been given things we never even knew we wanted, and then to have it all snatched away is very dispiriting.

Even now, after reading all the details of the latest episode (I'm finding it difficult to watch it, for some reason), I'm getting ever more annoyed. I thought that when Oliver would find out about Detective TinyHands, he'd get drunk and bang someone and regret it. But it doesn't look like that's going to be the case, going forward - no angry table flipping, nothing.

Edited November 4, 2016 by arjumand

[lemotomato]

On 11/3/2016 at 8:34 PM, calliope1975 said:

I don't even want to read the fix it fics that are being written right now. I need straight up AU's. The AU-er the better. 

 

On 11/2/2016 at 6:55 PM, Hiveminder said:

This show is really making me wish there were less post Olicity breakup fics and more AU Olicity are happily together like they should be fics being written right now. I could really use them. 

How about some AU fluffy one-shots and drabbles collections?

I'm Not Throwing Away My One-Shot by somethingelseornothingatall
Tethered by bobs
Love is in the Air: Olicity Drabbles by spaztronaut
Did It Hurt When You Fell From Heaven? by bri617

[tv echo]

Cute...

[wonderwall]

This is gorgeous:

http://whoeveryoulovethemost.tumblr.com/post/153092355791/original-team-arrow-the-a-team

[wonderwall]

My aesthetic:

http://captainsamell.tumblr.com/post/152865443451/insp

[calliope1975]

I'm not sure why I keep reading Pieces of Always (the FICON spinoff.) It's very well written, but I cannot reconcile how terrible Olicity are as parents.

Spoiler

There wasn't even an actual born child present in this latest chapter, and I still felt terrible for Jules. 

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm not sure why I keep reading Pieces of Always (the FICON spinoff.) It's very well written, but I cannot reconcile how terrible Olicity are as parents.

  Hide contents

There wasn't even an actual born child present in this latest chapter, and I still felt terrible for Jules. 

I got bored part way through the most recent chapter and stopped reading, but I read the chapter with William. It bothered me because Jules seemed so much more at ease with him than Oliver and Felicity so now we know it's not her. It's them. 

[apinknightmare]

2 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm not sure why I keep reading Pieces of Always (the FICON spinoff.) It's very well written, but I cannot reconcile how terrible Olicity are as parents.

  Hide contents

There wasn't even an actual born child present in this latest chapter, and I still felt terrible for Jules. 

I can't tell if they're doing this on purpose or what.

Spoiler

 

It seems so obvious that focusing on putting together a nursery for a child that won't be born for a few years when you have one on the way is kinda shitty? And buying two of everything - planning for Ellie when they haven't even had Jules yet, like, Jules can't even have her own wall decals? But then at the same time they always make sure to put a little "we're going to love Jules just as much, totes excited to have her" in there, so it seems like they don't want to give the impression that Ellie is favored all the while writing about how perfect she is, and like Jules is generally a pain in the ass. I mean:

Quote

Felicity curls against him, seeking the security and warmth he has to offer her. The overactive little girl taking up residence in her womb right now makes things slightly awkward, but they manage. A very big part of him is grateful to feel this child kick against him. She is not Ellie, but he has no doubt they will love her every bit as much and he's so eager to build their family together that he can scarcely wait for their little girl's arrival.

Why wouldn't all of him feel grateful to feel his daughter kicking? Goodness, they are terrible.

 

[calliope1975]

10 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I can't tell if they're doing this on purpose or what.

That's what I was thinking as well.

Spoiler

They seem so oblivious and terrible that I keep waiting for the chapter where they realize how horrible they are. I actually was waiting for it in this chapter. I kept thinking - you know you're having a child that's not Ellie, right? Like, right now? But with the future chapters, it seems that realization never happens. I'm so confused. There's writing Olicity as flawed people who make mistakes and then there's the way they're portrayed in this fic, and I'm confused as to the intent of the writers. 

[HighHopes]

Ugh. The treatment of Jules in that FiCoN sequel fic is breaking my heart. I gave up on FiCoN, but checked out this fic because I wanted to see what people were talking about. And my heart hurts for her. And this is probably the first fic that has made me actively dislike Felicity. 

I don't know what the rules are for bringing in posts from other forums, but there was a post on the This is Us episode forum that seriously applies to this fic. "Observing a parent repeatedly demonstrate incredible levels of love and caring for a sibling while not demonstrating the same for the sibling observing and craving that love can have a profound impact on someone's psyche. Particularly when your pain is happening right under the parent's nose and they never notice".

I cannot believe these writers had Oliver and Felicity build a nursery for and talk about how much they miss Ellie, when they have a child on the way. Jules really is an afterthought to them isn't she? Something they needed to get out of the way first so they could look forward to their children Ellie and Nate. I want someone to point out how awful they were to Jules. But from what I see in their comments and replies, these writers apparently do not see the problem somehow? 

Ugh. I want to take Jules away from them and give her to an Oliver and Felicity in another fic. Possibly the All Blue Skies fic that hasn't been updated in forever. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by HighHopes

[calliope1975]

23 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

Ugh. I want to take Jules away from them and give them to an Oliver and Felicity in another fic. Possibly the All Blue Skies fic that hasn't been updated in forever. 

I need fix-it fic for this fic. 

[LeighAn]

Wow that Pieces of Always update. Even when they are trying to provide POV for Oliver and Felicity's relationship with Jules I feel like they just get me to the point of understanding Oliver and Felicity and then in the next sentence have them verbalise internally something else that makes me feel horrible for Jules and wish for better parents for her. If we see the kids as adults I feel like Jules is going to be like a Villan in the future thats how screwed up her parenting has been. Like a Bad Willow BTVS storyline.

Edited November 21, 2016 by LeighAn

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, all through the chapter I was like, okay this isn't so bad, then:

Spoiler

It'd been so hard to bond with her baby when she'd still been mourning the loss of Ellie, the first Ellie. It'd taken her a long time to admit even to herself, much less to Oliver, that some part of her had been convinced maybe the baby would be Ellie, born a bit earlier than the other timeline. Felicity loves Julianna so completely for who she is, frustrating though that may sometimes be, because in many ways she truly is her mother's daughter. But in those early days, there'd been a quiet part of her that had felt like it was Ellie who should have been in her arms instead, because that's who she'd secretly thought she'd been pregnant with all along. She hadn't wanted to think that way, but the thought had been there regardless, feeding the postpartum depression she'd suffered through immeasurably.

Yuck.

[calliope1975]

I'm gonna need AU Oliver and Felicity to come take Jules away where she's appreciated. 

Spoiler

Even when Oliver answered the phone, it seemed like he was pissed at Jules. She's 7. What the hell has a 7 year old done to deserve the attitude? And while I understand how devastating PPD is, why didn't these idiots try to fix their relationship with their child after that passed?

[dtissagirl]

Is it wrong that I'm fascinated by you guys reading this trainwreck of a fic?

[calliope1975]

17 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Is it wrong that I'm fascinated by you guys reading this trainwreck of a fic?

I can't help it. I keep hoping they'll be better parents yet I'm fascinated by how much they suck. 

[EmeraldArcher]

31 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Is it wrong that I'm fascinated by you guys reading this trainwreck of a fic?

I'm right there with you.  I stopped reading the original fic by Chapter 10-ish, I think.  It was too long, and I just lost interest.

But, I've loved reading everyone's reactions to that fic and now the spin-off.  It's the most that universe has ever entertained me! 

[apinknightmare]

41 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Is it wrong that I'm fascinated by you guys reading this trainwreck of a fic?

If I can't stop myself from reading it, I'm glad someone is getting some entertainment out of it.

[HighHopes]

Just ugh at this story. I have no idea why I'm reading it, it's kinda like a train wreck-- I can't seem to look away.  

Spoiler

Quote

 

Felicity can only watch in amazement as the dog tries to climb its way up Jules' leotard to lick her face, making her daughter laugh.

She laughs.

Jules laughs.

Her stubborn, sassy little girl who is more likely to argue the color of the sky with her than smile at her is laughing. It's a sound that's so rarely volunteered in the Queen house that she's honestly stunned right now. Jules laughs at things, but it's more of a dry chuckle, a grunt sometimes, a derisive snort. Never this. Never a full-bodied giggle that absolutely transforms her daughter right before her eyes.

The extremely long sigh he lets out is both relief and frustration rolled into one. "Damn it, Jules."

Felicity gets it. She won't tell him this, but his hair is substantially more salt and pepper than the other timeline's version of him had been at this age. She's absolutely certain that's entirely thanks to Julianna.

"Yeah," Felicity agrees, grinning hugely. She stares at their daughter. "You should see it. It's beautiful."

He pauses, like he's not sure what to do with this idea, and she can't blame him because she isn't sure she could have envisioned this kind of joy on her daughter's face this morning either.

 

It's these things that make me hurt for Jules so much. Are you really telling me that an eight year old is so stressful that she caused someone to go grey early? Or that you have never really seen your EIGHT year old daughter really smile or laugh? That you could never imagine her being that happy? Ever? Felicity, I think that says more about you as a parent than what traits your daughter got from you. Jesus. 

 

[LeighAn]

50 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

Just ugh at this story. I have no idea why I'm reading it, it's kinda like a train wreck-- I can't seem to look away.  

  Reveal hidden contents

It's these things that make me hurt for Jules so much. Are you really telling me that an eight year old is so stressful that she caused someone to go grey early? Or that you have never really seen your EIGHT year old daughter really smile or laugh? That you could never imagine her being that happy? Ever? Felicity, I think that says more about you as a parent than what traits your daughter got from you. Jesus. 

 

Yep this part aggravated me as well 

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm gonna need AU Oliver and Felicity to come take Jules away where she's appreciated. 

  Hide contents

Even when Oliver answered the phone, it seemed like he was pissed at Jules. She's 7. What the hell has a 7 year old done to deserve the attitude? And while I understand how devastating PPD is, why didn't these idiots try to fix their relationship with their child after that passed?

I dropped the original fic maybe two chapters before it ended, because I grew to dislike this timeline's Felicity as much as I disliked Laurel and the show. I have not touched this follow-up fics in this timeline with a ten foot pole, but I think the solution is perfectly clear. Original timeline speedsters need to pick up Jules and drop her off with original Oliver and Felicity. They're bound to appreciate her more than these guys. Which isn't saying much because they've set the bar awfully low.

[statsgirl]

I'm intrigued as to whether they are writing Felicity and Oliver as garbage parents on purpose, or they just don't get it.

Here, cleanse your palate.  dettoit's Hallowe'en fic Give Me Something Good, in two parts. The first is Sam and Dean arrive to help with a haunting, and the second part is a fluffy AU that I needed badly given what's happening on the show now.

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'm intrigued as to whether they are writing Felicity and Oliver as garbage parents on purpose, or they just don't get it.

Judging by the author's notes and some twitter commentary, I don't get the sense that they're intentionally writing them as garbage parents. It seems to me like this is all intended as reasonable reaction and aftermath to what happened with the first Ellie.

Edited November 22, 2016 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

The Felicity of Pieces of Always is in serious need of some real psychotherapy because of her obsession with Ellie.  In the real world, Ellie II  would be almost as messed up as Jules, and probably unbearably self-centred given how Felicity dotes on her.

All the comments of "oh, this has such feels" make me despair of the fic ever getting fixed.

[bijoux]

Is anyone following Our Version of Events by Macha and geneeste? It got updated yesterday. I can't say I'm hooked on it, but it's a fun way to pass a bit of time. However, I'm getting a bit apprehensive about how much Oliver and Felicity are allowed to interact. The chapter before last was solely Oliver and Thea, and while most of this chapter had them in the same scene, they had maybe a minute alone. I actually get the choice intelectually, what with the fic's focus being public perception. So it certainly makes sense to portray how others see them. Emotionally, though, I'm like, Good God, Felicity, he obviously wants to talk to you in private. Can't you step out for a minute and then come back in to talk with Dig?

[way2interested]

The Darkest Hour updated. Didn't read it yet, but posting for others who were looking forward to updates as much as I was-

http://archiveofourown.org/works/5722732/chapters/19782133

[HighHopes]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

Is anyone following Our Version of Events by Macha and geneeste? It got updated yesterday. I can't say I'm hooked on it, but it's a fun way to pass a bit of time. However, I'm getting a bit apprehensive about how much Oliver and Felicity are allowed to interact. The chapter before last was solely Oliver and Thea, and while most of this chapter had them in the same scene, they had maybe a minute alone. I actually get the choice intelectually, what with the fic's focus being public perception. So it certainly makes sense to portray how others see them. Emotionally, though, I'm like, Good God, Felicity, he obviously wants to talk to you in private. Can't you step out for a minute and then come back in to talk with Dig?

That was like Macha's other fic I think-- the one that was all text messages? There was never a chapter about Oliver and Felicity messaging or talking to each other. It's a weird writing choice and works once or twice I think, but it's not as fun to read an Olicity fic that doesn't actually have Olicity interacting very often. 

[bijoux]

They have interacted, I don't want people to think they haven't. They had a date and as I said, they spent the vast majority of the last chapter together, it's only that Dig and Lyla were with them 95% of that time. Which is fine and I get it, I just want some one on one time.

[Mellowyellow]

I have faith in Macha! 

Anyone reading the Victorian fic? It's sooooo goooood!

[bijoux]

54 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Anyone reading the Victorian fic? It's sooooo goooood!

I'm not really sure which fic you're talking about, but I tried one historic fic in this fandom once and regretted it. It was the 1800s and NOBODY was acting or speaking accordingly. It drove me insane for the one chapter that I read.

[Mellowyellow]

12 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I'm not really sure which fic you're talking about, but I tried one historic fic in this fandom once and regretted it. It was the 1800s and NOBODY was acting or speaking accordingly. It drove me insane for the one chapter that I read.

http://archiveofourown.org/works/8181362

This one!!!!! I loveeeeeee it!

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

http://archiveofourown.org/works/8181362

This one!!!!! I loveeeeeee it!

I've been reading that. It's a nice enough story, but I have trouble seeing the characters as Oliver and Felicity. Plus, the Laurel as Oliver's sister thing is just weird. 

[Mellowyellow]

I just imagine people who look like Oliver and Felicity walking around and I'm good.  My reasoning is that in another time, another place there is scope for them to act very differently.

That said I'm a huge AU fan and don't actually really like canon-ish fics so I'm very forgiving of OOC behaviour.

[statsgirl]

8 hours ago, bijoux said:

They have interacted, I don't want people to think they haven't. They had a date and as I said, they spent the vast majority of the last chapter together, it's only that Dig and Lyla were with them 95% of that time. Which is fine and I get it, I just want some one on one time.

I thought that Diggle and Lyla were well used though "Okay, let's talk about how much PDA you're going to have, and confirm that real sex is off the table" while they both cringed.  So funny.

Re the Victorian one:  I generally like her fic but I'm finding this one slower to start.  Maybe I should wait until there is more of it written.  And Oliver has way too many sisters, it's like his mother is a brood mare.  Noah insisting that Felicity marry into the peerage makes sense to me.

Edited November 23, 2016 by statsgirl