Carole Radziwill: She's a Real Princess!

[diadochokinesis]

3 hours ago, Ki-in said:

I know you didn't claim that NYU was Ivy League which is why I didn't quote you or mention you specifically in the post (Ryebread either).  I was just clarifying because I've heard people throw that phrase around for top tier schools that aren't IL but are excellent. :-)

Ok, just wanted to make sure that it was clear that I didn't say that.  :)

[ryebread]

5 hours ago, diadochokinesis said:

@ryebread took my quote and falsely stated that I was saying she went to an Ivy league school. 

Well, what I actually said was, before anyone "thinks Carole pledged to an Ivy League".  Because reading that she graduated from a university that is currently ranked 12th in the nation is a little misleading. 

Assuming it's true that she even graduated.... Just kidding, I jest.  But it is curious to me that she pursued a masters in business.  Unless she didn't realize she wanted to go into journalism until after she graduated.

[Mu Shu]

I don't care about Carole's credentials.  I just need to know if those floating stairs behind her in the THs are an art installation, or an actual cantilevered staircase.  Because my god, that looks dangerous.  Like those shitty tiny house death trap staircases.  It makes my OCD trigger wondering if the architect knew what they were doing, and if they are to code.

Also, body of a sexy 70's surfer girl, and the face..... Oh Carole, ask Luann and Dorinda how to age gracefully, youthfully, and keep your actual face.  

[WireWrap]

4 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

I don't care about Carole's credentials.  I just need to know if those floating stairs behind her in the THs are an art installation, or an actual cantilevered staircase.  Because my god, that looks dangerous.  Like those shitty tiny house death trap staircases.  It makes my OCD trigger wondering if the architect knew what they were doing, and if they are to code.

Also, body of a sexy 70's surfer girl, and the face..... Oh Carole, ask Luann and Dorinda how to age gracefully, youthfully, and keep your actual face.  

They are real stairs leading up to her bedroom!

[Mu Shu]

Just now, WireWrap said:

They are real stairs leading up to her bedroom!

Oh shit.  I won't be able to sleep worrying about those damn stairs.  And wondering what goes on in her bedroom with her 21 year old body and 2,000 year old Queen of the Damned returns to Easter Island face.

what the fuck Carole.  Other than the stairs, I think I love you. 

[diadochokinesis]

7 hours ago, ryebread said:

Well, what I actually said was, before anyone "thinks Carole pledged to an Ivy League".  Because reading that she graduated from a university that is currently ranked 12th in the nation is a little misleading. 

Assuming it's true that she even graduated.... Just kidding, I jest.  But it is curious to me that she pursued a masters in business.  Unless she didn't realize she wanted to go into journalism until after she graduated.

I went to a university that was one of the top journalism schools (I was not in that program but had a lot of friends who were). They required a double major. The thought process was that you would be able speak/report intelligently about that area. I don't know what her BA was in but she might have done the MBA because she thought it would help her in a journalism career. It could also be that she just fell into the field of journalism. Her first job was as an intern and she worked her way up to producer. 

[breezy424]

The stairs:  OMG.  Do they even meet code?  Cause they scare me to death.  Nope.  Never would happen in any place that I would live.

Getting a job with a network.  At least in NYC.  Most times you start out as an usher.  OK.  I'm going way back.  It's not an easy process.  There are soooo many applicants.  Been there.  If you get a job as an intern (probably unpaid)  kuddos to you.  I've said this many times but I give full credit to Carole to be able to get a job in network news.  It's not easy and I will never discredit it. 

Is Carole a journalist?  Is she a writer?  Well, she's published two books.  She was employed by a major network out in the field.  I'm not going to nitpick it.

My opinion on Carole, no matter what her career or let's throw in her mother in law and relationship with JFK junior, is that although she has her moments I'm just not liking her so much anymore.  I liked her with Heather, not so much with Beth.  Yep.  Not that she's friends with someone I can't stand but because of her attitude and the things that come out of her mouth.  She's just kind of lost me.  Yeah.  I get that she said things before Beth came back but now.  I'm just not liking the whole cool girls stuff that is coming across as mean girls.

[Lemons]

On 7/25/2017 at 4:02 PM, film noire said:

It was network news, so likely several people -- I feel like an idiot b/c I always assumed she'd done actual reporting/journalism at some point, not just producing  -- when she said she "reported" from the middle east,  I thought she had actually reported, not produced segments (eta: and being a news producer is a tough job, but if that was her only job in news? Well, that's not what I was giving her credit for, and not what words like "reporting" led me to believe she was doing.)

She did reporting , journalism in The Middle East and other places. She also produced.  I guess that's not so unusual to do both.  

I cant figure out why people would want to trivialize her past work?  She might be low key now but at one time she was quite successful. I guess Bethany is the only one who works outside of housewife related things. 

[ryebread]

14 hours ago, Lemons said:

I cant figure out why people would want to trivialize her past work?  She might be low key now but at one time she was quite successful. 

I can't speak for everyone, but I've trivialized because imo, she glamorized.

I rip on Carol's past gigs for the same reason I do Sonja's 'Public Relations' gigs and Moaner's fashion connections to Calvin Klein. I think they all have glorified their past professions just a wee bit. That said, Carole could've graduated at the top of her class at Princeton and written Obama's inaugural speech. I'd give credit where credit is due but I'd still think she was a nitwit.

[biakbiak]

23 hours ago, WireWrap said:

They are real stairs leading up to her bedroom!

It's not her bedroom it's her closet/office. I think her apartment tour is still on Bravo.com.

[Lemons]

3 hours ago, ryebread said:

I can't speak for everyone, but I've trivialized because imo, she glamorized.

I rip on Carol's past gigs for the same reason I do Sonja's 'Public Relations' gigs and Moaner's fashion connections to Calvin Klein. I think they all have glorified their past professions just a wee bit. That said, Carole could've graduated at the top of her class at Princeton and written Obama's inaugural speech. I'd give credit where credit is due but I'd still think she was a nitwit.

You really think getting an internship at ABC News, then being hired by Peter Jennings to work on projects with him, then reporting news,  then producing news for a total of fifteen years is comparable with sonjas hostessing?  I don't get how she is glorifying her fifteen years at ABC?  It's all verifiable.  Maybe because we don't have videos of Carole hunkered down in front of a war zone wearing a helmet?  I just can't see any exaggeration regarding her former career. 

[WireWrap]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

It's not her bedroom it's her closet/office. I think her apartment tour is still on Bravo.com.

Thanks, I thought they were to the bedroom/closet. LOL

[Almost 3000]

2 hours ago, biakbiak said:

It's not her bedroom it's her closet/office. I think her apartment tour is still on Bravo.com.

So then where is the bedroom and bath? I thought the reason for putting her office in the kitchen during her last remodel was she wanted a larger closet upstairs in the bedroom. I think the bedroom is upstairs. I'd view the Bravo video but they don't play well on my computer.

27 minutes ago, WireWrap said:

Thanks, I thought they were to the bedroom/closet. LOL

Edited July 29, 2017 by Almost 3000

[biakbiak]

2 minutes ago, Almost 3000 said:

So then where is the bedroom and bath? I thought the reason for putting her office in the kitchen during her last remodel was she wanted a larger closet upstairs in the bedroom. I think the bedroom is upstairs. I'd view the Bravo video but they don't play well on my computer.

Off the hallway. Her is a spread of her doesn't include any of those rooms but you can see the doors to both. I belebeleive in the Reno she made it all her dressing room.

[Almost 3000]

3 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Off the hallway. Her is a spread of her doesn't include any of those rooms but you can see the doors to both. I belebeleive in the Reno she made it all her dressing room.

Thanks!  I've always thought she only had the upstairs. Knowing that, now the floating steps don't seem like such a hassle if all the living areas are on the main floor. Man, the pets and Adam really ruined that remodel.

[Mindthinkr]

I can't wait to see the new fabric that she chose to redo the animal print sofa in. Remember how she had dozens of swatches to choose from? 

[diadochokinesis]

4 hours ago, Lemons said:

You really think getting an internship at ABC News, then being hired by Peter Jennings to work on projects with him, then reporting news,  then producing news for a total of fifteen years is comparable with sonjas hostessing?  I don't get how she is glorifying her fifteen years at ABC?  It's all verifiable.  Maybe because we don't have videos of Carole hunkered down in front of a war zone wearing a helmet?  I just can't see any exaggeration regarding her former career. 

They also don't just give the Peabody and 3 Emmys to a hostess equivalent person. I sincerely doubt she has glamorized her journalism history. I think it is just a case of BEC for some people. 

[ryebread]

11 hours ago, Lemons said:

You really think getting an internship at ABC News, then being hired by Peter Jennings to work on projects with him, then reporting news,  then producing news for a total of fifteen years is comparable with sonjas hostessing?  I don't get how she is glorifying her fifteen years at ABC?  It's all verifiable.  Maybe because we don't have videos of Carole hunkered down in front of a war zone wearing a helmet?  I just can't see any exaggeration regarding her former career. 

You're doing it right there. Glamorizing.

My boyfriend was a producer at HBO, incidentally at the same time Carole was employed at ABC.

He produced pieces for Howard Cosell, Sugar Ray Leonard - many on air sports personalities of the day.  But was not hired by them. He was hired by HBO. Much like Carole was not hired directly by Peter Jennings. She may have had to communicate with him peripherally, (or maybe not) but I highly doubt they were hunkered down together in a tent in Afghanistan knocking out stories. Do you really think lowly producers are hired by on air talent? Not even Executive Producers are. If you think so, then I don't know who put that idea in your head, except Carole.

My boyfriend also won an Emmy. Actually the piece he helped produce won the Emmy. There were 6 other producers on the same piece that also got the statues.  Even the guy who operated the graphics generating Chyron machine got one. And Angela the gofer. And the guy who did some voiceovers. If you think they went to the actual Emmy Awards to walk on stage like you see on TV, they didn't. There was a small, untelevised award dinner on a Tuesday night.

So my point is, huzzah for winning Emmys and a Peabody. She was obviously a member of a team that helped put together an excellent news piece. But I think some people think it's like when Spielberg or Jay Z produce an award winning piece. It's not. Her career as a producer has been glamorized. And that's okay. 

 She reminds me of how my turd of an ex-boyfriend describes himself on his Facebook page as an 'Emmy Award winning Sports Producer'.  Though he's absolutely entitled to call himself that, he tended to puff his actual position up. And most people bought his puffery and were razzle dazzled by it. Including me. Heh.

[ryebread]

7 hours ago, diadochokinesis said:

I think it is just a case of BEC for some people. 

That's fair. I don't like her and think she's a phony. Keebler doesn't make enough crackers for this bish over here, when it comes to Carole.

On the other hand, some people have a case of the opposite of BEC. Glorifying, glamorizing and idolizing reality 'stars'. OBEC. Oppositional bitch eating crackers. I was going to call it a disorder. But it's not. We're just having fun picking at our favorites that we love to hate. Or  worshipping those that we love to love. That's okay by me.

[Lemons]

6 hours ago, ryebread said:

That's fair. I don't like her and think she's a phony. Keebler doesn't make enough crackers for this bish over here, when it comes to Carole.

On the other hand, some people have a case of the opposite of BEC. Glorifying, glamorizing and idolizing reality 'stars'. OBEC. Oppositional bitch eating crackers. I was going to call it a disorder. But it's not. We're just having fun picking at our favorites that we love to hate. Or  worshipping those that we love to love. That's okay by me.

How is stating facts "glamorizing" something?  You can pick apart what it really means to be a producer or reporter but the facts are those were her job descriptions and that's what she got paid to do. 

I wouldn't assume her story is the same as your ex's HBO story or maybe it is, so what? How is she supposed to describe her years at ABC?

 Too many women's accomplishments are trivialized. Carole got her MBA in the 80's and began working in a male dominated field in the 80's. I wouldn't take anything away from her. 

[HunterHunted]

10 hours ago, ryebread said:

My boyfriend also won an Emmy. Actually the piece he helped produce won the Emmy. There were 6 other producers on the same piece that also got the statues.  Even the guy who operated the graphics generating Chyron machine got one. And Angela the gofer. And the guy who did some voiceovers. If you think they went to the actual Emmy Awards to walk on stage like you see on TV, they didn't. There was a small, untelevised award dinner on a Tuesday night.

So my point is, huzzah for winning Emmys and a Peabody. She was obviously a member of a team that helped put together an excellent news piece. But I think some people think it's like when Spielberg or Jay Z produce an award winning piece. It's not. Her career as a producer has been glamorized. And that's okay. 

Except Carole's situation is exactly like Jay Z and Spielberg.

The Grammys

Album of the Year is awarded to the performer and the production team of a full album if other than the performer.

Record of the Year is awarded to the performer and the production team of a single song if other than the performer.

Song of the Year is awarded to the writer(s)/composer(s) of a single song.

Beyonce has been criticized for muscling her way into writer's credits on her songs. She'll change an "oh" to an "ah" and demand a writing credit. Even though there are more than 70 writers and 25 producers on Lemonade doesn't make it any less her vision even if she wasn't capable of single handedly creating it. However, each one of those 70 writers and 25 producers deserves to be acknowledged and receive an award when Lemonade wins something.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/does-beyonce-write-her-own-music-and-does-it-really-matter

The Oscars

The Academy Award for Best Picture is one of the Academy Awards presented annually since the awards debuted in 1929, by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences (AMPAS). This award goes to the producers of the film and is the only category in which every member is eligible to submit a nomination and vote on the final ballot. Best Picture is considered the premier award of the Academy Awards, as it represents all the directing, acting, music composing, writing, editing, and other efforts put forth into a film production.

The Oscars have individual categories, but Best Picture is where the whole is judged over the individual accomplishments. Spielberg is a fantastic director, but he can't direct his way out of a shit script or terrible casting especially if he isn't a producer.

Nearly everything of note has been accomplished by a team of individuals working together.

Does this mean that not only did Tenzing Norgay help Edmund Hillary become the first person recorded to summit Mount Everest that there was actually an expedition team of over 400 people, including 362 porters and 20 Sherpa guides?

Wait...wait...Neil Armstrong isn't singularly responsible for the Apollo 11 spaceflight and moon landing? And there was even a multiperson crew and a massive team of engineers, physicists, and mathematicians on Earth who also contributed to the mission? Some, like Katherine Johnson, whose contributions we're only really learning about now. 

Carole has Emmys and a Peabody award according to the rules of her profession. The individuals in the fields of television and journalism felt that it was appropriate that all 17 million producers and guys operating chyron machines received awards for their work. They seem to believe that not just Peter Jennings or Walter Cronkite deserve awards for noteworthy news stories. You may disagree with their belief that all of the people who worked on a project should receive an award. I'm probably going to follow what the journalists think is fair. And unlike the Oscars there is no Emmy category for  best newscaster so it's hard to separate what Peter Jennings brings to the table when his team isn't contributing. Maybe Carole was absolutely useless on those news stories that won those awards, but other times she was not. That's why she got and retained her producer job and credit. ABC news was clearly unwilling to go through each and every news story and apportion a percentage of contribution for each and every member of the team so by their rules Carole is deserving of her Emmys and Peabody award.

Finally, the fact that many parts of the Grammys, Emmys, and Oscars aren't televised doesn't mean those achievements matter less. It's probably an indication that those categories are far more important to the field than the shit we do see in the televised awards. Lots of people can name Barbara Walters, Peter Jennings, Walter Cronkite, and Edward R. Murrow. However, Garrett Brown and Jim Rodnunsky probably had more impact on the medium of television. Brown invented the steadicam and Brown and Rodnunsky both created computer-controlled, stabilized, cable-suspended camera systems. Garrett Brown actually invented it, Rodnunsky came up with a competitor 4 or 5 years later. These cable-suspended camera systems have been used to film most televised sports since the 90s. Most people don't know their names. Their awards weren't televised. Their inventions have impacted billions.

I don't think Carole's accomplishments are comparable to any of the achievements that I've discussed above. However, her profession created the rules that allowed her to receive the awards that she has received. If they had an issue with her work we'd probably have heard more than vague grumblings of a ghostwriter. And if you think people wouldn't spill, they would. See Katie Couric's ouster at CBS News, Ann Curry's ouster from Today, and Brian Williams' ouster from NBC News.

[breezy424]

Does anyone know exactly what Carole did as a producer?  I don't think so and to assume that she was a sort of tag along in receiving a Peabody or Emmy is unfair IMO.  I don't like Carole anymore.  I think she's a mean girl.  But I'm not going to make assumptions about aspects of her past career. 

Good for her that she 'got' a position in network news.  Good for her that she was part of a team that got a Peabody or an Emmy.  Good for anyone who achieved that. 

[ryebread]

18 hours ago, Lemons said:

Too many women's accomplishments are trivialized. Carole got her MBA in the 80's and began working in a male dominated field in the 80's. I wouldn't take anything away from her. 

You're right. Too many women's accomplishments are trivialized.

Aviva graduated from Vassar. Has a Masters in French Literature and then went on to get her law degree. She did this after surviving a traumatizing accident as a 6 year old. 

Carole called Aviva a 'nothing' and made fun of her leg. Or lack, thereof. Marginalized Aviva's writing skills. If that's not trivializing - accomplishments and a life - I don't know what is. Carole is one of those special snowflakes that can dish it but can't take it.

[ryebread]

13 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

And if you think people wouldn't spill, they would. See Katie Couric's ouster at CBS News, Ann Curry's ouster from Today, and Brian Williams' ouster from NBC News.

There it is again. The glamorization of what Carole was. Let's pretend Carole had gotten fired. Her ouster would be nothing like Ann Curry's or Katie Couric's. Even today, with her 'fame'.  She just wasn't/isn't all that. 

And to say that her situation is "exactly like Jay Z and Spielberg". I highly disagree.

She won awards. I'm not trying to take that away from her but when I read things like the above and her Wiki page, for example, it amuses me because I've been behind the scenes with a TV producer and I can assure you with 100% confidence it's not as it's being portrayed. She's no Jay Z.

 

ETA: @HunterHunted I only bolded  and commented on the last bit of your post because it was the easiest to comment on - I'm supposed to be getting ready for breakfast LOL. But thanks for your thoughts - I'll come back after I've eaten my weight in bacon and eggs.

Edited July 30, 2017 by ryebread

[Lemons]

3 hours ago, ryebread said:

You're right. Too many women's accomplishments are trivialized.

Aviva graduated from Vassar. Has a Masters in French Literature and then went on to get her law degree. She did this after surviving a traumatizing accident as a 6 year old. 

Carole called Aviva a 'nothing' and made fun of her leg. Or lack, thereof. Marginalized Aviva's writing skills. If that's not trivializing - accomplishments and a life - I don't know what is. Carole is one of those special snowflakes that can dish it but can't take it.

There's a bit of glamorizing Aviva right there. Of course she continued her life after her accident. What was she supposed to do?  People carry on after accidents and illness. Avila is obviously super intelligent. I never paid much attention to her but her marrying Harry tells me a lot. What type of law did she practice?

Carole trivializing aviva's accomplishments is no better than people trivializing Carole's accomplishments.  As for Carole marginalizing aviva's writing, Aviva did the same thing to Carole.  I have no idea who started first.  

[motorcitymom65]

36 minutes ago, Lemons said:

There's a bit of glamorizing Aviva right there. Of course she continued her life after her accident. What was she supposed to do?  People carry on after accidents and illness. Avila is obviously super intelligent. I never paid much attention to her but her marrying Harry tells me a lot. What type of law did she practice?

Carole trivializing aviva's accomplishments is no better than people trivializing Carole's accomplishments.  As for Carole marginalizing aviva's writing, Aviva did the same thing to Carole.  I have no idea who started first.  

Aviva started everything. Carole never trivialized any of Aviva's accomplishments when she first met her or when they were friends. It was only after Aviva started talking about the "word on the street" being that Carole had used a GW that Carole became enraged. Aviva also said that she had heard that Anthony's family wanted nothing to do with her and that she had been basically disavowed by the whole Radziwill/Kennedy clan. She also said something about "at least I am not 50 and childless." Yes, Carole said mean things too. That Aviva was basically nothing. But she didn't say it out of the blue. She said it after she was attacked by Aviva and called a fraud.  I would have called her nothing as well. Wouldn't most people? Or far worse? 

[lunastartron]

35 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Aviva started everything. Carole never trivialized any of Aviva's accomplishments when she first met her or when they were friends. It was only after Aviva started talking about the "word on the street" being that Carole had used a GW that Carole became enraged. Aviva also said that she had heard that Anthony's family wanted nothing to do with her and that she had been basically disavowed by the whole Radziwill/Kennedy clan. She also said something about "at least I am not 50 and childless." Yes, Carole said mean things too. That Aviva was basically nothing. But she didn't say it out of the blue. She said it after she was attacked by Aviva and called a fraud.  I would have called her nothing as well. Wouldn't most people? Or far worse? 

At the luncheon that sparked BookGate, Carole asked Aviva no less than three times if she had used a ghostwriter (one repetition would be somewhat understandable from confusion since she herself was relying on "word on the street" that Aviva had used one) and demanded to know what background had prepared Aviva to churn out Leggy Blonde. She rolled her eyes throughout the exchange, acted like it was stupid to even mention/sneered "that was a letter to your mother, NOT a book" when Aviva referred to her Chicken Soup anthology publication.

The belittling and demeaning had commenced way before Aviva started alluding to Carole's relationships with the Kennedys or made the "50 and alone" remark (which I recall occurring after the "you're nothing" retort - isn't order important if retaliation is defensible when Carole does it?). 

Edited July 30, 2017 by lunastartron

[Lemons]

42 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Aviva started everything. Carole never trivialized any of Aviva's accomplishments when she first met her or when they were friends. It was only after Aviva started talking about the "word on the street" being that Carole had used a GW that Carole became enraged. Aviva also said that she had heard that Anthony's family wanted nothing to do with her and that she had been basically disavowed by the whole Radziwill/Kennedy clan. She also said something about "at least I am not 50 and childless." Yes, Carole said mean things too. That Aviva was basically nothing. But she didn't say it out of the blue. She said it after she was attacked by Aviva and called a fraud.  I would have called her nothing as well. Wouldn't most people? Or far worse? 

Do you remember what kind of law Aviva practiced?  Was aviva's book successful?  All I remember about Aviva was that she was a bit of a whiner. 

[HunterHunted]

6 hours ago, ryebread said:

There it is again. The glamorization of what Carole was. Let's pretend Carole had gotten fired. Her ouster would be nothing like Ann Curry's or Katie Couric's. Even today, with her 'fame'.  She just wasn't/isn't all that. 

And to say that her situation is "exactly like Jay Z and Spielberg". I highly disagree.

She won awards. I'm not trying to take that away from her but when I read things like the above and her Wiki page, for example, it amuses me because I've been behind the scenes with a TV producer and I can assure you with 100% confidence it's not as it's being portrayed. She's no Jay Z.

 

ETA: @HunterHunted I only bolded  and commented on the last bit of your post because it was the easiest to comment on - I'm supposed to be getting ready for breakfast LOL. But thanks for your thoughts - I'll come back after I've eaten my weight in bacon and eggs.

Perhaps I could have made my point better. My point was that people are more than willing to spill the tea when sacred cows and notables, like Katie Couric, Ann Curry, Brian Williams, screw up or are sent packing. If Carole was as worthless as is contended, we probably would have heard something by now. She isn't nearly as important or powerful as any of the individuals that I've mentioned, but suddenly everyone is clamming up about the irrelevance of Carole Radziwill because...

Once again, I'm sorry that I didn't make my point more clear. In my examples of Beyonce, Jay Z, and Steven Spielberg, Carole isn't an analogue of any of these people. She's an analogue for all of the nameless faceless (by us) production people who are rewarded because their contributions add to a notable final product.

Your argument rests on glamorizing what Spielberg and Jay-Z can do on their own. Jay-Z is no Jay-Z. His ass can't read music. He can't write music. He can't play a damn instrument. He has used ghost writers for some of his raps. My point is that all of the individuals who contribute to the making of Jay-Z deserve to be commended too. As does Carole for whatever her contributions may be.

I too have connections to the entertainment industry, including a number of friends and family who are Grammy, Emmy, and Oscar nominees and winners. Though strangely, no one with or nominated for a Tony. This is the precise reason that I'm not going to automatically assume that Carole's contributions were meaningless or minimal. I wasn't present when she was working at ABC news. I don't know what she did or didn't do.

Even in my own work, it's the rare piece of legislation that I've managed to develop with no input or collaboration with others. The world doesn't work that way. Some people have provided more input than others. However, the final product wouldn't have been possible without contributions from everyone.

[WireWrap]

2 hours ago, lunastartron said:

At the luncheon that sparked BookGate, Carole asked Aviva no less than three times if she had used a ghostwriter (one repetition would be somewhat understandable from confusion since she herself was relying on "word on the street" that Aviva had used one) and demanded to know what background had prepared Aviva to churn out Leggy Blonde. She rolled her eyes throughout the exchange, acted like it was stupid to even mention/sneered "that was a letter to your mother, NOT a book" when Aviva referred to her Chicken Soup anthology publication.

The belittling and demeaning had commenced way before Aviva started alluding to Carole's relationships with the Kennedys or made the "50 and alone" remark (which I recall occurring after the "you're nothing" retort - isn't order important if retaliation is defensible when Carole does it?). 

 Not quite, Aviva started the fight by accusing Carole of having a GW for What Remains because Carole dared to ask if Aviva used the GW she, Carole, vetted for her on camera! Had Carole not done that on camera, Aviva wouldn't have gone after Carole IMO. 

1 hour ago, Lemons said:

Do you remember what kind of law Aviva practiced?  Was aviva's book successful?  All I remember about Aviva was that she was a bit of a whiner. 

Aviva never practiced law. She got her degrees, law/English, but never worked in either field after graduation, until she wrote her book (English degree). I'm not sure how her book sold and IMO, she was a spoiled, nasty woman that demanded that production do as she demanded. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by WireWrap

[HunterHunted]

2 hours ago, WireWrap said:

Aviva never practiced law. She got her degrees, law/English, but never worked in either field after graduation, until she wrote her book (English degree). I'm not sure how her book sold and IMO, she was a spoiled, nasty woman that demanded that production do as she demanded. 

Until this show, Aviva had never worked outside the home.

[Inspectabecky]

4 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Perhaps I could have made my point better. My point was that people are more than willing to spill the tea when sacred cows and notables, like Katie Couric, Ann Curry, Brian Williams, screw up or are sent packing. If Carole was as worthless as is contended, we probably would have heard something by now. She isn't nearly as important or powerful as any of the individuals that I've mentioned, but suddenly everyone is clamming up about the irrelevance of Carole Radziwill because...

Once again, I'm sorry that I didn't make my point more clear. In my examples of Beyonce, Jay Z, and Steven Spielberg, Carole isn't an analogue of any of these people. She's an analogue for all of the nameless faceless (by us) production people who are rewarded because their contributions add to a notable final product.

Your argument rests on glamorizing what Spielberg and Jay-Z can do on their own. Jay-Z is no Jay-Z. His ass can't read music. He can't write music. He can't play a damn instrument. He has used ghost writers for some of his raps. My point is that all of the individuals who contribute to the making of Jay-Z deserve to be commended too. As does Carole for whatever her contributions may be.

I too have connections to the entertainment industry, including a number of friends and family who are Grammy, Emmy, and Oscar nominees and winners. Though strangely, no one with or nominated for a Tony. This is the precise reason that I'm not going to automatically assume that Carole's contributions were meaningless or minimal. I wasn't present when she was working at ABC news. I don't know what she did or didn't do.

Even in my own work, it's the rare piece of legislation that I've managed to develop with no input or collaboration with others. The world doesn't work that way. Some people have provided more input than others. However, the final product wouldn't have been possible without contributions from everyone.

He's written for lots of people but not the other way around.. If you know otherwise, it'd break parts of the internet lol

[lunastartron]

3 hours ago, WireWrap said:

 Not quite, Aviva started the fight by accusing Carole of having a GW for What Remains because Carole dared to ask if Aviva used the GW she, Carole, vetted for her on camera! Had Carole not done that on camera, Aviva wouldn't have gone after Carole IMO. 

Aviva never practiced law. She got her degrees, law/English, but never worked in either field after graduation, until she wrote her book (English degree). I'm not sure how her book sold and IMO, she was a spoiled, nasty woman that demanded that production do as she demanded. 

I kind of agree about Aviva's motivations but I don't think she started the feud (although she obviously escalated and in certain respects finished it). This gets convoluted because of fourth wall considerations but the timeline as I recall seeing it was 

- Aviva asks Carole for assistance determining which cowriter/gw to enlist for Leggy Blonde in the off season 

- They lose contact for six to eight months and Carole for some reason is already primed for shit at the season six premiere party (i.e. whispering to Heather, "oh.my.gawwd. Did you see? Aviva's here."), later citing the fact that Aviva hasn't remained in touch as an illustration that she's not a good friend 

- At the luncheon, Aviva tells Carole she hasn't been around because she's been focused on completing Leggy Blonde. Carole then repeatedly asks if Aviva hired anyone and/or just talked into a tape recorder for her contributions to the book. Aviva says nope, she wrote it all down like e-mailing. (When I say Carole is relying on the streets for her belief that Aviva has used a cowriter, I mean that she doesn't know what ultimately happened with that process and has heard, like Aviva about Carole, from mutual industry relationships that she did indeed use one).

-Cue Carole's eye-rolling, indignation about the Chicken Soup essay, and dismissiveness. To which Aviva finally replies by asking if Carole had her own first book ghostwritten. And we're off with Carole sighing that she wrote for 15 years at ABC. 

From my perspective, Aviva was trying to tap dance around her own use of a gw and became irritated when Carole repeatedly brought it up but Carole was determined to be an condescending asshole from jump.

5 hours ago, Lemons said:

Do you remember what kind of law Aviva practiced?  Was aviva's book successful?  All I remember about Aviva was that she was a bit of a whiner. 

Leggy Blonde and Widow's Guide both sold horribly within context of expectations. Per BookScan figures that someone linked to a while back, they both moved under 10k copies. Leggy Blonde sold only about 50 - 70 percent of what Widow's Guide did but the loss on WG for its publisher would have been more substantial because the advance was a lot higher. 

9 hours ago, Lemons said:

There's a bit of glamorizing Aviva right there. Of course she continued her life after her accident. What was she supposed to do?  People carry on after accidents and illness. Avila is obviously super intelligent. I never paid much attention to her but her marrying Harry tells me a lot. What type of law did she practice?

Carole trivializing aviva's accomplishments is no better than people trivializing Carole's accomplishments.  As for Carole marginalizing aviva's writing, Aviva did the same thing to Carole.  I have no idea who started first.  

This gets kind of circular but one can just as easily say, "well, of course, Carole got her degree and worked in male-dominated fields in the '80s. Women do that when the fields in which they're interested are male-dominated." 

 

As for the bolded, that's the whole point of the years-long discourse on Carole's record IMO. It only garnered scrutiny once she started demeaning others ("you're nothing: you've never worked outside the home!"; "yeeaaah, that essay was a letter to your mother, not a book!") and making reductive pronouncements about how editors are only supporting contributors to the development of a manuscript (tell that to Gordon Lish), she herself is a "writer" who has devoted years and years to her "craft," no one should ever tell her job well done unless that person is Joyce Carol Oates, and suggesting that there's only certain ways in which writing is legitimate. 

 

And it became a talking point again when Carole explicitly told Ramona that she shouldn't even try to broach a political conversation because she's too uninformed. Unlike Carole, whose career has enabled her to call Twitter users "dumbass"es and impugn Melania for posing nude in her past. 

 

When Carole situates herself as a writer to whom that art is so sacrosanct it forms the lynchpin of her identity and then she blows off deadlines for which she is contractually obligated because work for which she has received an advance is less fun than vomiting at a rave with Adam and cites her professional history as the reason why she's "apples" to others' "spaceships," I don't think it's that surprising questions arise such as "well, what did her production duties actually entail since 'producer' encompasses an array of duties from hands off financing to assistant responsibilities to logistical coordination?" 

Edited July 31, 2017 by lunastartron

[Lemons]

28 minutes ago, lunastartron said:

 

This gets kind of circular but one can just as easily say, "well, of course, Carole got her degree and worked in male-dominated fields in the '80s. Women do that when the fields in which they're interested are male-dominated." 

 

They were male dominated fields for a reason. They didn't hire women. Until the late 7o's it was still legal to ask a woman what her plans to get married and pregnant were. And you know that went on far longer.  The 80's weren't that far removed from the women's liberation movement, brought on because of discrimination of women. Women still don't get paid the same as men.  It was an accomplishment to get into journalism in the 80's as a women without being just an attractive talking head. 

Aviva sounds like she was a career student, married rich men twice and had children in her 30's and 40's. Smart with no ambition. Nothing to glamorize there. 

[WireWrap]

1 hour ago, lunastartron said:

I kind of agree about Aviva's motivations but I don't think she started the feud (although she obviously escalated and in certain respects finished it). This gets convoluted because of fourth wall considerations but the timeline as I recall seeing it was 

- Aviva asks Carole for assistance determining which cowriter/gw to enlist for Leggy Blonde in the off season 

- They lose contact for six to eight months and Carole for some reason is already primed for shit at the season six premiere party (i.e. whispering to Heather, "oh.my.gawwd. Did you see? Aviva's here."), later citing the fact that Aviva hasn't remained in touch as an illustration that she's not a good friend 

- At the luncheon, Aviva tells Carole she hasn't been around because she's been focused on completing Leggy Blonde. Carole then repeatedly asks if Aviva hired anyone and/or just talked into a tape recorder for her contributions to the book. Aviva says nope, she wrote it all down like e-mailing. (When I say Carole is relying on the streets for her belief that Aviva has used a cowriter, I mean that she doesn't know what ultimately happened with that process and has heard, like Aviva about Carole, from mutual industry relationships that she did indeed use one).

-Cue Carole's eye-rolling, indignation about the Chicken Soup essay, and dismissiveness. To which Aviva finally replies by asking if Carole had her own first book ghostwritten. And we're off with Carole sighing that she wrote for 15 years at ABC. 

From my perspective, Aviva was trying to tap dance around her own use of a gw and became irritated when Carole repeatedly brought it up but Carole was determined to be an condescending asshole from jump.

 

Yes, to a degree Carole pushed when she asked if Aviva used the GW but I don't think she did it, at first, to be mean/hurt/embarrass her and I really doubt that Aviva told her to keep that info private, to not mention it on camera. I suspect that Aviva asked Carole to vet a GW in hopes that Carole would mention it on camera so that she had a storyline. Outside of her creepy father and weird ex husband, her life was rather boring, she needed something and she made GWgate it. Oh, and Aviva fawned all over Carole for writing What Remains just the season before.

IMO, Aviva preplanned this "GW" fight and Carole was taken by surprise at that lunch when she did it. Did Carole take it too far, Yes, she did. Her comments and the face/chin grab were wrong but IMO, Aviva baited her with the comments about Carole's in-laws, her not having children, on top of the "word on the street" innuendoes/lies she threw at Carole. All to fire Carole up for 2 reasons, she thought it would up her book sales (that failed big time) and to give herself a storyline because she had none to begin with. IMO, Aviva was delusional enough to believe that she would become the "star" of the NY HW show and that the viewers wanted her/her (weird) family to be the focus/the center of show.....She was Wrong! 

[film noire]

I don't have kids -- and loathed Aviva -- but working "inside the home" is a job also worthy of an award. We don't value that work  (we sentimentalize it, but don't value it) and treat it like an obstacle course (no matter what you do, you will do it wrong) but it's valuable and as much a job as news producer.

4 hours ago, Lemons said:

Aviva sounds like she was a career student, married rich men twice and had children in her 30's and 40's. Smart with no ambition. 

If what you wanted and then achieved in life was a great education, four kids, a kickass home and enough financial stability to do charitable work instead of going to an office, then -- by anybody's lights -  you made it to the big top (on one leg or two) and time to take a bow. (I myself won't clap -- because I can't stand the woman and would chew glass first -- but I admit she deserves credit.)

Quote

Nothing to glamorize there. 

Well, but -- Hollywood has been churning out product glamorizing that lifestyle for decades ; ) We've had a love affair with housewives (happy, sad, good and bad) since forever, and the culture loves a housewife story like no other. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by film noire

[motorcitymom65]

Carole asked Aviva if she had used a GW because the last conversation they had had was when Aviva called Carole and asked for names of reputable folks she could use. Carole gave her names. If I had provided that information to someone, when I next talked to them, I would ask if they had found any of those folks helpful. I think most people probably would. As Carole said, it is certainly not unusual for folks who don't have a background in writing to hire someone to help with the heavy lifting.

I could not stand Aviva, but would never trivialize her education. She went to good schools, I am assuming was a good student, and got her law degree. She never used it, but getting it - if that was her goal - was a great accomplishment. Despite my dislike of her, I would never want to take that away from her. No matter what I think of any of these gals, I would never want to take that away from any of them. Ramona is the HW I most detest. After watching her on the show for a decade, I am bemused at the fact that she was ever able to be successful at anything. Her success is much more shocking to me than is Carole's. But I don't doubt that Ramona was successful or that she did the things that she claimed to have done. I don't know how much help she received (financial or otherwise), but I really don't care. It is a fact that she found great success which is an accomplishment that I don't believe should be diminished. 

Which is the way I feel about Carole's accomplishments. She went to great schools, got great jobs, saw the world in a way most people do not, was recognized in her field with prestigious awards, and wrote a best selling book. She knows and has known fabulous and note-worthy people. Those are just the facts. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by motorcitymom65

[Ki-in]

1 hour ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Which is the way I feel about Carole's accomplishments. She went to great schools, got great jobs, saw the world in a way most people do not, was recognized in her field with prestigious awards, and wrote a best selling book. She knows and has known fabulous and note-worthy people. Those are just the facts. 

And yet here she is on a reality show for all the world to gawk and laugh at. It kind of puts a side eye on her accomplishments if she's willing to look like an idiot on tv and although she has always had a sense of being better than the other HW's she is every bit as ridiculous and laughable and certainly no better than the other HW's she loves to demean. 

[Ki-in]

We forgot to add model in Carole's list of accomplishments, funny the only time she's brought that up was to try and impress some youngins Sonja brought around (Jordache? Never heard of those jeans , maybe you're pronouncing it wrong) Now that was entertainment!

This is a model woman with serious accomplishments, Willow Bay not only went to an Ivy League school but was beautiful enough to be the face of Estee Lauder for years, worked in journalism and is now the Dean of the USC Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism.  At one point I thought someone like her would be a welcome addition to HW's but Willow clearly has her shit together and would probably be embarrassed to admit to watching let alone ever be on such a silly show.

Since Carole stills feels she's relevant to journalism, maybe Carole should aspire to be more like her rather than taking random gummies, riding on handlebars and running around with a bunch of drunks she seems to loathe. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Bay

Willow in her prime.  This is what brains and beauty look like

Edited July 31, 2017 by Ki-in

[Mu Shu]

I just like the fact that Carole runs around without a bra or boob job.  She has the best Hw boobs, IMO.  Sexy.

[motorcitymom65]

3 hours ago, Ki-in said:

We forgot to add model in Carole's list of accomplishments, funny the only time she's brought that up was to try and impress some youngins Sonja brought around (Jordache? Never heard of those jeans , maybe you're pronouncing it wrong) Now that was entertainment!

This is a model woman with serious accomplishments, Willow Bay not only went to an Ivy League school but was beautiful enough to be the face of Estee Lauder for years, worked in journalism and is now the Dean of the USC Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism.  At one point I thought someone like her would be a welcome addition to HW's but Willow clearly has her shit together and would probably be embarrassed to admit to watching let alone ever be on such a silly show.

Since Carole stills feels she's relevant to journalism, maybe Carole should aspire to be more like her rather than taking random gummies, riding on handlebars and running around with a bunch of drunks she seems to loathe. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Bay

Willow in her prime.  This is what brains and beauty look like

Who says she has to aspire to be like anyone? There isn't probably a person alive who couldn't point to someone else who has been more successful or more admired in their chosen career path. Does that mean that we should all be unhappy with what we have done simply because there is someone who has done more? There are plenty of folks in my field who have done more and done it better than I have. If I spent all my time lamenting that I didn't achieve the same level of success that they did I would be one miserable bitch.  Not everyone lives their life measuring their accomplishments against those of other people. Maybe Carole can just aspire to being happy as she is. She seems content with her lot in life, which is nice to see in a HW. Others seem to think she should want/do more. Carole seems happy as she is, which is why she is appealing to some, and not appealing to others. 

[Otherkate]

Someone should let Carole know that it's a competition, I'm not sure she knows!

Btw, anyone who wouldn't want to admit to watching RHONY is not someone I would care to hang out with. I know lots of successful women who love this show. I don't really consider watching it to be a disqualifying factor. There's nothing wrong with silly entertainment. Thank god for it, in fact.

[Lemons]

6 hours ago, Ki-in said:

We forgot to add model in Carole's list of accomplishments, funny the only time she's brought that up was to try and impress some youngins Sonja brought around (Jordache? Never heard of those jeans , maybe you're pronouncing it wrong) Now that was entertainment!

This is a model woman with serious accomplishments, Willow Bay not only went to an Ivy League school but was beautiful enough to be the face of Estee Lauder for years, worked in journalism and is now the Dean of the USC Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism.  At one point I thought someone like her would be a welcome addition to HW's but Willow clearly has her shit together and would probably be embarrassed to admit to watching let alone ever be on such a silly show.

Since Carole stills feels she's relevant to journalism, maybe Carole should aspire to be more like her rather than taking random gummies, riding on handlebars and running around with a bunch of drunks she seems to loathe. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Bay

Willow in her prime.  This is what brains and beauty look like

 

I don't know, I have to side eye anyone who purposely changes their name to Willow Bay.  I never heard of this woman but she's obviously smart and beautiful.  It was easier to get a foot in the door in TV news as a beautiful woman in the 80's, and even now if you're talking about Fox News.  

[Mozelle]

At this stage in her life, Carole seems content with filming this show for a few months a year, hanging out with her friends and boyfriend (as well as her fur babies), putting one in the air from time to time, and traveling. She's not out here trying to hustle and get every piece of branding on camera, and that's fine. If she were hustling and getting every piece of branding on camera, that would conceivably be a problem, too, since so many complain about Bethenny how Skinny Girl is always in a shot. 

[HunterHunted]

6 hours ago, Lemons said:

I don't know, I have to side eye anyone who purposely changes their name to Willow Bay.  I never heard of this woman but she's obviously smart and beautiful.  It was easier to get a foot in the door in TV news as a beautiful woman in the 80's, and even now if you're talking about Fox News.  

I'm not saying Willow Bay didn't work for her career achievements, but she's married to Bob Iger. I can't imagine that didn't help her out. He was the president of ABC. He's now chairman and CEO of Disney and has hundreds of millions of dollars. Being a dean of a school is less about skill, talent, or professional expertise and more about fundraising and connections, which she demonstrated by launching the Julie Chen/Leslie Moonves and CBS Media Center in Wallis Annenberg Hall.

[lunastartron]

23 hours ago, film noire said:

I don't have kids -- and loathed Aviva -- but working "inside the home" is a job also worthy of an award. We don't value that work  (we sentimentalize it, but don't value it) and treat it like an obstacle course (no matter what you do, you will do it wrong) but it's valuable and as much a job as news producer.

If what you wanted and then achieved in life was a great education, four kids, a kickass home and enough financial stability to do charitable work instead of going to an office, then -- by anybody's lights -  you made it to the big top (on one leg or two) and time to take a bow. (I myself won't clap -- because I can't stand the woman and would chew glass first -- but I admit she deserves credit.)

Well, but -- Hollywood has been churning out product glamorizing that lifestyle for decades ; ) We've had a love affair with housewives (happy, sad, good and bad) since forever, and the culture loves a housewife story like no other. 

 

I just want to applaud this especially astute and brilliantly articulated post. Can I say "job well done" or will you hold it against me like Carole because I'm not Joyce Carol Oates/Mary Karr? ;-) 

Also, I'm one of the few posters here who liked Aviva (shout out to @ryebread). While I understand some of the antipathy toward aspects of her personality if not the general intensity among viewers, I do like to think she chose her wallpaper in the rental redecoration with full consciousness of the reference/allusion. 

[lunastartron]

On July 30, 2017 at 9:30 PM, WireWrap said:

Yes, to a degree Carole pushed when she asked if Aviva used the GW but I don't think she did it, at first, to be mean/hurt/embarrass her and I really doubt that Aviva told her to keep that info private, to not mention it on camera. I suspect that Aviva asked Carole to vet a GW in hopes that Carole would mention it on camera so that she had a storyline. Outside of her creepy father and weird ex husband, her life was rather boring, she needed something and she made GWgate it. Oh, and Aviva fawned all over Carole for writing What Remains just the season before.

IMO, Aviva preplanned this "GW" fight and Carole was taken by surprise at that lunch when she did it. Did Carole take it too far, Yes, she did. Her comments and the face/chin grab were wrong but IMO, Aviva baited her with the comments about Carole's in-laws, her not having children, on top of the "word on the street" innuendoes/lies she threw at Carole. All to fire Carole up for 2 reasons, she thought it would up her book sales (that failed big time) and to give herself a storyline because she had none to begin with. IMO, Aviva was delusional enough to believe that she would become the "star" of the NY HW show and that the viewers wanted her/her (weird) family to be the focus/the center of show.....She was Wrong! 

I don't think Aviva had any moral reservations about launching her overall salvo against Carole. And I believe that production encouraged her to use it as a storyline and she had no problem doing so after she felt slighted at the lunch. 

But it often gets lost that a lot of the hooks Aviva threw in the main BookGate brawl at her housewarming were in direct response to shit Carole was already lobbing. It didn't occur in a vacuum or come out of nowhere.

"You're sick. There aren't two Avivas, there's one and she's a phony" -----> Phony? How often do the Kennedys speak to you anymore?

"You're nothing: you've never worked outside the home"; something like "I never talk about how you have three degrees" but never had a job; "you're a psycho" -------> "I'd support you if you got pregnant" and "at least I'm not 50 and alone."

Carole really showed her ass that night IMO well before grabbing Aviva and running over to Reid and Harry to proclaim "your wife/ex is not a good person." 

[film noire]

3 hours ago, lunastartron said:

While I understand some of the antipathy toward aspects of her personality if not the general intensity among viewers, I do like to think she chose her wallpaper in the rental redecoration with full consciousness of the reference/allusion. 

Ha!  -- well, she has an English degree, so I'm sure she read the story (unless she had a ghost reader :) 

Edited August 1, 2017 by film noire

[eXiled]

Carole did come at Aviva wrong that night, and I wasn't upset when Aviva gave it right back to her with both barrels. Yet I did have to giggle at Aviva's "50 and alone" retort. Any woman who marries Harry Dubin on purpose has no room to shame another woman's life/relationship status, IMO. Oily, gross and only considered eligible because of his family's fortune, the man has been passed around Manhattan more than a soggy marijuana joint. Fifty and "alone" is better than having that on your CV, honey!

[WireWrap]

5 hours ago, lunastartron said:

I don't think Aviva had any moral reservations about launching her overall salvo against Carole. And I believe that production encouraged her to use it as a storyline and she had no problem doing so after she felt slighted at the lunch. 

But it often gets lost that a lot of the hooks Aviva threw in the main BookGate brawl at her housewarming were in direct response to shit Carole was already lobbing. It didn't occur in a vacuum or come out of nowhere.

"You're sick. There aren't two Avivas, there's one and she's a phony" -----> Phony? How often do the Kennedys speak to you anymore?

"You're nothing: you've never worked outside the home"; something like "I never talk about how you have three degrees" but never had a job; "you're a psycho" -------> "I'd support you if you got pregnant" and "at least I'm not 50 and alone."

Carole really showed her ass that night IMO well before grabbing Aviva and running over to Reid and Harry to proclaim "your wife/ex is not a good person." 

Yes, as I said, Carole said some nasty things but if we are talking just about that rental house party then we also have to factor in Aviva going from 1 person/group to the next, slamming Carole. Aviva kept smack talking Carole to everyone, then Ramona ran to tell Carole what Aviva was saying about her and advised her to confront her about it. So, Carole comes to the party to support Aviva only to find out that Aviva was trash talking her to everyone, which is what set it all off that night.