Hoarders We Know and Encounter

[Grommet]

My dad was a child of the depression and wasn't so much a hoarder as a stocker-upper, a trait I got from him. My local warehouse store can sometimes be a problem with their tempting coupons - I have enough shampoo and body wash to last me a year. But I have a big storage closet in my bathroom, so it's neatly put away. And I have a decent unfinished basement where I can store cases of paper towels and tissues. I will admit, though, that I left the case of tomato soup on the dining table I rarely use, and have been just grabbing a couple of cans to take to work every week.

 

Actually, my dad was a bit of a hoarder. After he had a stroke a few years ago, I helped clear out his office (a 3-room building on his home property) and there were decades' worth of bills, bank statements, business documents, computers and parts and accessories, desks and file cabinets. The paper alone probably took 30 huge trash bags. I've been trying to help my stepmother get organized after his death last fall, and I keep telling her she doesn't need to keep paid bills. Pay them and throw them away!

 

I have trouble throwing away things that seem like they still have value, so I start by putting stuff on the street early on trash day and most of it gets taken before the sanitation crew comes through. I always feel such relief when I see it's been taken by someone!

 

Thanks to all who share their stories here.

[Irritable]

I have 2 new hoarding stories to share - one is sad,  and the other is also sad,  but less so, with an intriguing twist. 

 

First, the saddest one:

 

The manufacturing company for which I worked for 20 years had independent sales rep offices in every state, that had for decades been allowed to run their own offices any way they wanted as long as certain profit numbers were reached.  Often, these reps would have to correspond with one another because some jobs and sales would overlap territories, or commission would have to be split based on some other criteria.  For 18 of those years, I knew that every afternoon a pile of typed letters would come rolling over the fax machine from one of the old-school Florida sales reps.  He was constantly in fear that other reps were trying to cut him out of money he was entitled to, and the letters were semi-polite-ish bullet point lists of questions designed to shake out any potential pennies on every possible job that he might have had even the tiniest whisper of credit due.  It got to the point that no one paid these letters much heed, because they were badgering and insulting, and only 10% of the time was he due anything at all.  But every day, he sat at his desk on his typewriter and pounded out these DID YOU SCREW ME OUT OF COMMISSION??? letters, like his whole company would crumble if he didn't faithfully pursue this lost money that may or may not be out there with his name on it.

 

I remember he came to visit our office once, and was boggled by the small size of our suite compared to his.  "But, where are all your filing cabinets??", he nearly yelled at me in horror, so I showed him the conference room which housed exactly 6 cabinets that were purged at the end of every year.  He said his office had 3 file rooms, each wall covered completely in cabinets and shelves stuffed with copies of every document that has ever made its way into their space.  They printed out hard copies of every order and fax.  They filed mail.  All of his bullet point letters were present in one of those rooms. They made copies of copies and then cross referenced them into separate files, just in case one set ever went missing.  I nodded and smiled as he bragged about all the paper they had managed to stuff into his office space, and asked what he would do with all of it if they ever move.  He told me that they almost had to move once, when the owner of the building decided to sell, so he bought the building himself, just so he wouldn't have to.  He spent a million dollars to preserve his hoard of worthless, yellowing paperwork.

 

Over many years, the parent company had been gradually transitioning all of the sales offices to one centralized computer program for everything, and most of us loved that.  Less paper!  So much easier to look up information! Yay for technology making our lives easier and more efficient!  Only... the Florida rep was not happy at all about this.  He dug in his heels, refused to comply, made a lot of noise complaining and trying unsuccessfully to find allies to fight The Man, and continued to try to run his office using typewriters and fax machines, until things finally reached a point where the parent company had to throw their weight around and force him to comply, or lose his territory.  In response, he committed suicide in his office parking lot.  He left a note, and from what I was told, he alluded to part of his reason being that he had lost control of his own company, and would not be turned into a slave of paperless technology, forced to use a computer system that he did not agree to.  When his office staff had to start going through everything, it was discovered that he had rented many warehouse spaces in the area.  Inside those spaces?  More files.  In his home?  A million boxes of files.  At his brother's home?  More boxes of files.  So when the psychologists on the show back off as soon as some of the hoarders get really agitated, and say they don't want to push them into doing something drastic, this is what they mean.  If you corner someone with this disease too abruptly, and with no compromise, they WILL chew off their own leg, or worse, to get away.

 

The less-sad story:

 

My closest friend's grandfather recently passed away, at the age of 97.  He had lived in the same tiny house in Texas for 70 years, most of those years spent with his wife.  After she passed, everyone expected he would follow shortly after, because she had taken care of him his whole life and you hear about these elderly couples often dying within days or weeks of each other. But, somehow he managed to hang in there, and insisted that he would stay in their home by himself, despite the fact that he was almost completely deaf and blind. 

 

It was known that he had quite a healthy amount of money in savings, and his family being scattered all over the country and unable to do it themselves, encouraged him to hire someone to come to the house every week to do his cleaning, laundry, and prepare meals for him, but he was adamant that he didn't want "strangers" in his house, stealing his things.  It seemed odd, because there were no valuables in the home whatsoever.  The sofa was probably 50 years old, and it was what he called "the new sofa".  He and his wife had always lived a no-frills life, and he was quite proud of the fact that once he was on his own,  he got by on $7,000 per year, which included his food, utilities and taxes. He once threatened to call the police at a hardware store because a cashier had shorted his change by one cent.  I remember him telling that story when I was a kid, during the summer I stayed with my friend at their house, about how she "tried to rob him", and thought he wouldn't notice because he was old, but HE DID BY GOD, and he made sure the owner knew what she was up to.

 

He eventually became very ill, and had to be kept in the hospital for a long period of time.  When it was said that he probably would never be able to go home again, he got so upset that the poor man had to be put in restraints, which was HORRIBLE.  His family assumed he must have been developing dementia, because he was never one to thrash around and become physically violent ever before.  After he passed away, some family members, including my friend, were emptying his house.  There wasn't a whole lot to do, the house was so sparse, and what few pieces of furniture there were just got taken to the curb.  But in a musty little storage space under the utility room floor that she had nearly forgotten about, she found a lockbox.  Inside, that lockbox was packed solid with wads and wads and wads and wads of cash.

 

As she pulled each fistful of money out, her sister would straighten and sort the bills.  They smelled horrible, like mildew, and were in pretty rough condition.  By the time the box was empty, there was around $12,000 on that table, in denominations of $1, $5, $10, $20 and $50.  The currency was so old that it was out of circulation, and would not be accepted as authentic if presented as payment in retail stores.  For whatever reason, and I assume it's because he was alive during The Depression, he had secretly hoarded money, and it never came to be of any use to him.  It was divided up between the closer family members, and everyone got nearly a thousand dollars each of this stinky old cash to do with as they pleased.  The only catch was that it first had to be taken to a bank and traded in for new currency.  It was a shock to find, and somewhere in the middle of making piles of all that money to count, they were laughing hysterically at the absurdity of it all, and in the end, everyone got a nice little gift from Grandpa Cecil.  The only part that really bothers my friend was realizing that the reason he was beside himself when the doctor said he would never go home again must have been because he knew all that money was hidden, and he had spent his whole life hiding and protecting it.  It had to be why he refused to hire help - he was afraid it would be discovered and stolen. He didn't even have a chance to tell anyone it was there, he died very suddenly at that point. Hopefully somehow, somewhere out there, he knows that it wasn't taken by thieves in the night.

 

I saw one of the dollar bills myself, and WOW, it really did smell atrocious.  My friend said that in the middle of counting, when they would come upon a $1 or $5 in particularly deplorable condition, they would yell, "THROW THAT IN THE TRASH! WE DON'T NEED IT!" and then dissolve into fits of laughter again.  It's actually too bad their grandfather didn't get to join in on those laughs, but I think maybe he wouldn't have been so amused at the idea of them throwing away money he so carefully hid away in the 1960s and '70s.  There was also plenty of discussion about how he came to be in possession of the money in the first place  It was clearly not from a bank robbery, and he probably wasn't selling drugs. It's a mystery!

[ZaldamoWilder]

Really?  I don't see a difference between anyone who hoards, some are worse than others, but they all have issues. They all have either trauma in their pasts, or perhaps untreated ADHD or a multitude of other issues. I honestly don't see any of them as lazy.

 

I think I can see a difference.   A *true* hoarder is unwilling or unable to make the distinction between worthlessness and value (my new litmus for that is:  "she kept the bowl and threw me out").    Another difference is when higher-levels are confronted, they defend, become enraged or break down, whatever it takes to justify the keep.  When lower-levels are confronted, that is their come to Jesus moment, the confrontation provides them with enough self awareness to be embarrassed or ashamed that a camera crew is in their house.....about this.  High-levels cannot be talked into paring down.  They're not hoarding a thing, they're hoarding events.  So they are just not willing to acknowledge, let alone confront what problem brought them there.   And it's not as though the lower levels have less shit necessarily, but their sudden awareness of it allows them to redefine its value enough to let it go.  I don't know if I see laziness more than apathy.  They see the same piles we do, but get stuck at: where do I begin?

 

Over many years, the parent company had been gradually transitioning all of the sales offices to one centralized computer program for everything, and most of us loved that.  Less paper!  So much easier to look up information! Yay for technology making our lives easier and more efficient!  Only... the Florida rep was not happy at all about this.  He dug in his heels, refused to comply, made a lot of noise complaining and trying unsuccessfully to find allies to fight The Man, and continued to try to run his office using typewriters and fax machines, until things finally reached a point where the parent company had to throw their weight around and force him to comply, or lose his territory.  In response, he committed suicide in his office parking lot.  He left a note, and from what I was told, he alluded to part of his reason being that he had lost control of his own company, and would not be turned into a slave of paperless technology, forced to use a computer system that he did not agree to.  When his office staff had to start going through everything, it was discovered that he had rented many warehouse spaces in the area.  Inside those spaces?  More files.  In his home?  A million boxes of files.  At his brother's home?  More boxes of files.  So when the psychologists on the show back off as soon as some of the hoarders get really agitated, and say they don't want to push them into doing something drastic, this is what they mean.  If you corner someone with this disease too abruptly, and with no compromise, they WILL chew off their own leg, or worse, to get away.

 

 

 

It was known that he had quite a healthy amount of money in savings, and his family being scattered all over the country and unable to do it themselves, encouraged him to hire someone to come to the house every week to do his cleaning, laundry, and prepare meals for him, but he was adamant that he didn't want "strangers" in his house, stealing his things.  It seemed odd, because there were no valuables in the home whatsoever.  The sofa was probably 50 years old, and it was what he called "the new sofa".  He and his wife had always lived a no-frills life, and he was quite proud of the fact that once he was on his own,  he got by on $7,000 per year, which included his food, utilities and taxes. He once threatened to call the police at a hardware store because a cashier had shorted his change by one cent.  I remember him telling that story when I was a kid, during the summer I stayed with my friend at their house, about how she "tried to rob him", and thought he wouldn't notice because he was old, but HE DID BY GOD, and he made sure the owner knew what she was up to.

 

 

As she pulled each fistful of money out, her sister would straighten and sort the bills.  They smelled horrible, like mildew, and were in pretty rough condition.  By the time the box was empty, there was around $12,000 on that table, in denominations of $1, $5, $10, $20 and $50.  The currency was so old that it was out of circulation, and would not be accepted as authentic if presented as payment in retail stores.  For whatever reason, and I assume it's because he was alive during The Depression, he had secretly hoarded money, and it never came to be of any use to him.  It was divided up between the closer family members, and everyone got nearly a thousand dollars each of this stinky old cash to do with as they pleased.  The only catch was that it first had to be taken to a bank and traded in for new currency.  It was a shock to find, and somewhere in the middle of making piles of all that money to count, they were laughing hysterically at the absurdity of it all, and in the end, everyone got a nice little gift from Grandpa Cecil.  The only part that really bothers my friend was realizing that the reason he was beside himself when the doctor said he would never go home again must have been because he knew all that money was hidden, and he had spent his whole life hiding and protecting it.  It had to be why he refused to hire help - he was afraid it would be discovered and stolen. He didn't even have a chance to tell anyone it was there, he died very suddenly at that point. Hopefully somehow, somewhere out there, he knows that it wasn't taken by thieves in the night.

 

 

 

You said it was sad, so I had no business not being prepared.  Still, I gasped.

 

I'm shocked that the banks took it back, can you even keep money in that condition in circulation?  I wonder if there was some exchange rate or something for the bills that were destroyed.  The saddest part of that story for me was not just that his reaction caused him to be restrained but that it far outweighed his efforts.  He so fiercely protected his entire life savings, which may have legit been something when he amassed it, but $12K would not have saved him from poverty in 1960, 70, 80, 90, 00, 10.   

 

I don't ever want it to sound like I'm judging these people.  There's enough nuts on tv to do that with, I am super intrigued by this.  I've already told my daughter that when I'm ahem, mature if she has to ever convince me to throw out a thing that is clearly garbage, it's time to take over my care.   She told me I could have the big bedroom in the house she doesn't own yet.  Lol. 

[JudyObscure]

ZaldamoWilder:

I'm shocked that the banks took it back, can you even keep money in that condition in circulation?

When I was a bank teller we always had a place in our drawer for "mutilated." We would add to it all day as we pulled it out of deposits -- fast food restaurants had some really greasy, nasty deposits. It was worth just as much as money in good condition, but it was our job to get it out of circulation by strapping it up and sending it to the Fed who would give us new money in exchange.

Great stories Irritable! The part about Cecil's story that shocks me is the restraints. I thought you could release yourself from hospitals if you were determined to leave and the hospital just listed you as leaving "against advice," or some such term. I hate to think of him working himself into a stroke over that money. It's my guess that he started that little stash a long time ago and figured it would be there "if the banks failed." I'll admit there were moments during the latest stock market plunge when I probably would have socked away some cash in a closet, if my husband wouldn't have laughed at me. I wonder if Cecil's wife knew about it while she was alive. I once had a bank customer take a hundred dollar bill from a stack I had just given him and put it in a secret compartment in his wallet. He grinned and said, "This is my mad money -- money she'd be mad about if she knew I had it."

[Irritable]

Everyone seemed to think Cecil's wife did not know about the stash.  Which was also kind of sad, because she worked so hard her entire life, retired fully vested from not one, but two jobs, and never spent a fun penny on herself.  I wish they could have done something nice with the cash together, like go on a cruise, but they were very rural folks, who didn't at all care to venture out even as far as the nearest big city.  Both were born, raised and laid to rest in their little town, having hardly ever left it.

 

Yes, mutilated, that was the word I couldn't think of!  As long as the gross bills are destroyed, which is what the Fed does with it once received from the banks, then there aren't 2 bills representing the same value in circulation, so it all cancels out.

 

Cecil wasn't in a physical condition to leave the hospital at the time he was restrained.  His body was in septic shock by that point, and he had not even been able to walk he was so weak, but I guess when he heard he wasn't going home the adrenaline must have kicked in and he got some of that superhero strength you hear about, like when women pick up cars off of their children.  I'm sure that adrenaline rush, and its subsequent drop, led to his organs failing that much sooner than they would have.  Such a shame to not be able to have peaceful thoughts at the end, all over a secret that didn't really need to be a big deal at all. 

 

Which now makes me wonder, do all hoarders go through this anxiety when they are on their deathbeds?  Did my mother?  Were some of her most final thoughts a panic because she knew her death would mean people would be going through her hoard, dismantling it, judging it?  Or was she relieved, in a way, to know that she would not have to do it herself?  Would the feelings of being overwhelmed by her hoard, wanting to get rid of it herself but not knowing how or where to begin, go away once she realized it was out of her hands, and not really her problem anymore?  I hope so.  I know she had the aforementioned anxiety up until about 3 weeks before her death, because she had fought me about going into her house even then.  It was a similar situation, she was in hospice care and wouldn't be going back in her house again (although I never actually told her that), so in order to get things for her and feed her cats, she had to let me use her key and go inside.  But when I would come back, she was always very hostile, accusing me of taking a long time and it must have been because going through her things and throwing valuables away.  You know, because I didn't understand the difference between valuables and trash, it was all the same to me, pearl necklaces and rotten food would go in the same garbage bag if you left me in charge.  So she finally said she wanted her "friend" to have the key instead of me - a woman she had known only a couple of years, but that she KNEW she could trust, because this woman would wheel her outside for cigarettes at the chemo center, and I wouldn't.  That's how you can tell who really cares about you, see... it's the person who indulges the smoking habit that gave you the very throat cancer you're fighting. 

 

Anyway, after access was taken from me and given to this "friend", my mom soon went into a kind of permanent sleep.  Not really a coma, exactly, but her body finally relaxed, for the first time I had seen in years.  She slept without thrashing or crying out.  She seemed to be in a peaceful state, but of course I can't know what was going through her mind.  I had not realized that one day she would close her eyes and never open them again, but still be alive, for weeks, essentially causing two grieving periods instead of one.  I wish someone had warned me about that, because I kept showing up every day, waiting for her to wake up so I could talk to her.  During that time, I decided to go by her house, just to check on things, with the copy of the key I had made and not told my mom about.  What I found was that her "friend" had stolen all of the antique silver serving dishes and cutlery from the breakfront in the dining room.  My mother grew up in a household with money, and inherited an abundance of extremely nice pieces.  Inside the breakfront they had all become tarnished, but were in otherwise perfect condition, somewhat protected from the chaos going on in the rest of the house.  And now they were all gone.  I had to call the police, file a report, she was required to return them, but not having an inventory list of what had been there before, I couldn't say for sure which pieces she had not given back, but I knew there were several.  I mean, before the house became a hoard, we used to have Thanksgiving dinners where every person (enough for up to 10) got their own little silver set of salt and pepper shakers.  It was THAT much fanciness.  I guess I'm glad Mom never knew her trustworthy friend had robbed her blind, but I can't lie, there was a small, bitter part of me that wished she had been awake for me to have told her.  Of course, the satisfaction I would have expected would have instead been regret, because no doubt the part of the story my mom would have been mad about was me making a copy of her key, and going into her house without permission, so I guess it's for the best all the ugliness happened without her knowledge.

[scootypuffjr]

Irritable, would you just write that ding-ding book already? You certainly have a way with words, and a fascinating and sympathetic backstory. I'm dying to read whatever stories you care to share, and I'm betting I'm not alone.

[Mrsjumbo]

Irritable, you really have a wonderful way of telling a story! Write your book, please!

When my mom found out she had breast cancer, one of the stories she told me was that she had prepared her funeral, down to what funeral home she would use, which cemetary, which songs to be played at church, etc. She let it slip that she had destroyed a trunk full of letters that were written between her & my dad when they were courting. In her mind she had done the important things, taking care of the logistics of her death & ridding the house of anything embarrassing. Didn't bother to think that we might not want to be saddled with the potential cleaning of the wall to wall furniture in her basement or closets full of clothes. It's a moot point anyway, as she is still alive even with another bout of cancer. This is 10 years after her initial cancer diagnosis, & still their house isn't clean.

[only1kcm]

I can't help myself - I watch these shows in horrid fascination because I suspect that, had I not married Mr. KCM, I would have ended up a hoarder myself. I used to joke to friends (yeah, "joke") that I was going to end up at the bottom of my steps with my numerous cats nibbling at my corpse. Of course, there's still hope, but only if Mr. KCM kicks off before me...I'm working to keep him healthy.

Anyway, just wondering: When the Mr. and I drive around, we look to see if we can identify hoarder houses. Does anyone else do this? Thanks to these shows, we can now pick 'em out right off.

[Mrsjumbo]

So now my parents hoarding is affecting me in more ways. We live out of state & dh's family & mine both live in the same town, with siblings nearby them. So when we do come to visit about once a year we get a lot of family visits out of the way.

Last Christmas we came up. The original plan was that we were coming up a few days before Christmas so that we could get all of our visits in. We stayed at my sister's house & we're planning to go to my parents house for the afternoon. My sister called me from work & said "change of plans- mom doesn't wants ou to come over today. She will see you in 2 days on Chrisymas eve". We had driven for 2 days to get there. Do you know how incredibly frustrating it is to be 30 min away from your parents house but not allowed to come over because it is a mess?!

So this year we were planning on coming in for Christmas again (honestly I didn't want to, but Mr Jumbo feels guilt because both sets of parents are getting up there in years. He did say we are not going to drive for 12 hours so that we can meet at a pizza place because no one is allowed over. I asked my sister to feel mom out- if we come for Christmas, can we come over? Again the answer was no. So we are not going until next spring. I will not inconvenience my kids by having them spend their Christmas on the road, for grandparents too selfish to open their doors. Let's hope my parents are still alive by our spring trip.

[JudyObscure]

Dang, Mrs. Jumbo!  That brings home the "people can't visit," aspect of hoarding in a very real way for me now.  Not only do they refuse to clean up at all for your visit they wont even clear a space on the couch for you to sit among the hoard for a little chat.  What does that mean but they think you seeing their mess is a worse thing than you driving for two days and being turned away.  Rather than you and your husband worrying about them passing away unvisited, they should be worried about passing away while their children are feeling so  hurt by them.

[mamadrama]

I grew up in a hoard. When I was little, my mom would laugh and refer to herself as a "packrat." I knew we had a lot of stuff, more than anyone else I knew, but it was normal for me so I didn't think anything of it. In fact, I was taught to be proud of the amount of stuff we had; Mom regularly bragged about it. How much, you ask? When I was eight I received 231 Christmas presents. Yes, my mother made me count them so that I could go to school and tell everyone. Did we have the money to buy all those? No. Our house could never be completely clean. "Clean" was everything pushed back against the walls with paths through the floors. Growing up, we never had access to an eating surface. I slept with my mother until I was a teenager because she would store things on my bed. At one point we lived in a 4-bedroom house. Every bed with piled with stuff, except for hers. And sometimes it was and we had to sleep on it. We had around 10 sitting surfaces, between the couches and multiple chairs, but at any given time only one would be cleared off. 

It was a "clean hoard", although that didn't mean everything was of value. Although she didn't keep her garbage (not while I was growing up, anyway), she kept useless things like plastic container lids and pens that didn't work. 

I, of course, wasn't allowed to give anything away. I also wasn't allowed to play with most of my things. She didn't want me to get all those toys "dirty" or broken. So I had 200 Barbies, and they were all in their boxes. If she bought me a doll and I WAS allowed to remove it from the box, she saved the box-even cheap dolls-because "it might be worth something one day.

In 1989 we opened a storage unit, a 20X20. We filled it up during a move. 

No kidding, that storage unit was not opened again until 2012. She spent more than $10,000 on a storage unit and couldn't even remember what was in it. I, on the other hand, rarely saw a doctor growing up because we "couldn't afford it." I have health issues that wouldn't be present if they'd been addressed while I was younger. She has been in a ton of financial trouble, including bancruptcy and owing the IRS a lot of money, yet she keeps paying on her storage units and buying stuff. 

At the worst, she lived in a 3500 sq. ft. house, completely full of course, and had 7 storage units full. She has more than 20 articifial Christmas trees, some that cost more than $500, yet hasn't had a tree up in years. She continues to buy a new one every year. She buys stuff as she needs it, because she she has so much she can't FIND what she needs.

Over the summer she went to our vacation house with us for a month. Before she left she went out and bought 17 floppy sun hats because they were on sale. 

I have not, in 40 years, ever seen my mother wear a hat. 

Despite the fact that we were staying on a beach, while we were there she went out to Kohls and spent more than $300 on artificial sea shells to decorate with when she got home. 

I could go into the emotional and verbal abuse I've suffered over the years, but I won't. She has gotten me into a lot of financial trouble, however. She's opened credit accounts in my name without telling me and then maxed them out, When we bought our house my name couldn't be on the loan due to a judgement that's on there because of an account she opened. I am still trying to sort it out. Her controlling and manipulative behavior made it almost impossible for me to have normal relationships as an adult. Any close relationship I had was seen as an affront to her. To most hoarders, they see their loved ones having relationships with other people as abandonment. As a result, they'll manipulate and cause problems so that those relationships end. I finally had to cut her off and keep her at arm's length so that I could have a normal life.

It's sad but when I think of her dying, I don't think of being sad or grieving-I think of cleaning the hoard. It stresses me out, and it stresses my husband out. I feel overwhelmed just thinking about it. 

[AZChristian]

I hope those Barbie dolls are still in their boxes; it will help pay some of her debt when she's gone.  (I don't mean to sound flippant.)  You are amazing to have come through that.  It's obvious from your writing that you are well educated and intelligent.  Your future is bright, and having survived your childhood has made you strong.  If you lived in Arizona, I'd want to take you to lunch, because you sound like a really "together" person.

[notyrmomma]

On top of it all, your mom is a thief and you could actually have her arrested for identity theft, but I'm sure you wouldn't do that (I wouldn't either).  Yikes.  My heart goes out to you.

[mamadrama]

12 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I hope those Barbie dolls are still in their boxes; it will help pay some of her debt when she's gone.  (I don't mean to sound flippant.)  You are amazing to have come through that.  It's obvious from your writing that you are well educated and intelligent.  Your future is bright, and having survived your childhood has made you strong.  If you lived in Arizona, I'd want to take you to lunch, because you sound like a really "together" person.

Thank you. You made my day. I have sold quite a few things and covered some bills. :-) I have an amazing husband and wonderful children. I grieve for the mother and childhood I wanted, but I focus my energy on giving my family what they deserve NOW. 

[Muffyn]

When we were young, my mother gave great significance to two pieces of furniture.  When my parents divorced and she moved two of my sibling and me across country, her mother’s sewing machine/cabinet and the “dry sink” my mother had bought with her own money were the only two pieces of furniture we brought along.  No beds.  No dressers.  Very little clothing.  No toys.   Our focus was on things that were important to her, not necessary for our lives. 

For a long time, after abandoning her teenaged children, she lived on military bases, so she had very little with her.  However, she insisted on having my aunt and then my sister store all of her belongings and would occasionally ask someone to find something really specific and send it to her.  She would get really angry when it wasn’t found, accusing others of throwing things away.  So she purposefully created a life in which she could keep few belongings and then insisted others keep her unnecessary belongings safe for her, including the two pieces of furniture. 

She retired with her new husband in a retirement community in Texas.  She convinced my eldest brother to move in with her.  He slipped up one day and told me that when she is out of town, he throws things away that she won’t get rid of – broken coffee pots, non-working appliances, torn towels. She will buy new versions of these things but won’t throw out the old ones.  Also, whenever a plate breaks, she puts it in the yard “for the frogs.”   He has done a lot of work in the yard to hide the fact that he is throwing away the broken plates (the neighbors had been commenting on how trashy it looks).  If she knows he is throwing things away, she throws a fit, crying and screaming.  Then come all kinds of bizarre accusations. 

When my brother realized what he said, he swore me to secrecy.  At first I thought he didn’t want me to tell her he threw things away.  That was part of it.  He was terrified I would tell people about her hoarding.  (So know, internet folks, that somewhere my brother is feeling a shiver down his spine as you read this.)  Note: We don’t live in the same state; I’ve never been to her house.

We had to move my other brother into a care facility.  I helped my mother go through his things.  I used tips I learned from watching the hoarding shows.  He had a large bedroom in a shared apartment.  So much of what was in there were things she had bought for him that he didn’t want or need.  One entire dresser drawer was filled with unopened multi-packs of socks.   She started mentally spinning, looking at every little thing, wanting to save old rubber bands and mismatched buttons.  She was angry that he didn’t use any of the many things she had bought him to help him get organized; that is, to organize all of the crap she kept buying him that he didn’t want.

At first I worked on the keep, throw away and donate plan.  However, every throwaway got her angry.  Socks with holes in them?  Donate – “Goodwill will put them in the rag box.”  Same with other torn or stained clothing.  When I explained we had to throw them away she got verbally abusive.  I pulled out the info I had printed from Goodwill and then one that showed you where you could donate other items in the area.  All of them said no torn or soiled clothing.  Of course, in her mind, they didn’t understand the value of things. 

I shifted her to putting together exactly what he would keep, basically a couple of weeks of clothing, all of which he could get in and out of easily. 

When we were going through his drawers, she would make nasty comments about the things he chose to keep.  He had chips from AA.  She went on for several minutes about why anyone would keep such a thing.  As we got to all of the weird little things that build up in drawers over the years, I realized that instead of throwing them into the trashcan that was near me, she was actually throwing them at me.  I moved a trashcan right next to her.  She kept pelting me with cigarette lighters, dried out pens and the like.  She kept trying to get me to take things but I refused because I knew what the story would become.  Rather than I helped her clean out his room, the new ideation would be that I did it because I wanted his things.  After all, I could have scored some sweet torn clothing, jeans that wouldn’t fit me, and things branded with Marlboro.  She can never accept that anyone ever just helps – they always have to have ulterior motives. 

We made it through the move out.  My other brother still lives with her in casa de broken appliances.  Her husband passed away.  Fortunately, she didn’t have the option to keep his body at the house.  She may have pulled a Psycho and had him preserved and sitting in his favorite chair. 

I’ve given just a few hoarding related examples here.  I did not speak to her for 20+ years because of the way she treats people.  When my brother mentioned her hoarding, it seemed so logical.  She shows the same kinds of behaviors we see in the worst of the hoarders – controlling, manipulative, histrionic, threatening to withhold affection, accusatory.   My eldest brother has put himself into a situation where he is now stuck living with her. She has helped destroy his life.  He no longer works, nor does he have any friends.  All people are suspect.  It is all very sad.

At the same time, I watch these shows because I can be really messy.  It happens more when I am depressed, really busy or injured.  I also had a good friend who is a hoarder of the crap piled to the ceiling, no one can come into my house, variety.  When I am depressed, I realize that I am making my home unappealing to keep people away.   At other times it is a matter of things piling up and not feeling like focusing on cleaning them up.  However, these shows help me kick into gear to clean things up.  Once a year I try to go through my closets and get rid of anything I don’t need/use.  I had a habit of piling up things to go to charity and not getting them out of the house.  I have become more likely to toss things or to list them as free for the taking on Next Door.  Also I ask people not to give me presents.  Sounds mean but I hate getting things I can’t use. 

My former friend who is a hoarder used to love to buy me things I didn’t want and then would be upset if she didn’t see them in my house.  It felt too damn good getting rid of all that junk.   

Edited September 12, 2016 by Muffyn

[Muffyn]

My other hoarder was my tenant.  I own a two flat (house in which each floor is a separate apartment).  The upstairs tenant was a clean hoarder, loading the place floor to ceiling with books and all kinds of found objects.  He loved to show off the great finds he would get at garage sales.  None of it was ever useful.  Meanwhile he convinced the neighbors that he was the one keeping the house together.

He was a clean hoarder.  Every few months he would make a big show out of cleaning and sealing the tile on the bathroom floor.  Meanwhile, we had mice.  I needed to go into his apartment to take care of a wireless issue.  It took him 30 minutes to clear a 5 foot path from the door to the computer. 

He filled our entire damp garage, other than my parking space, with stuff.  It got moldy.  The basement is not dry.  He placed things against the gas hot water heaters.  I had to ask him to move these items multiple times.  When I moved it, something broke.  He suggested I replace it, trying to guilt me because he was supposedly keeping that stuff to donate to a local store.  What did I break?  The glass on a picture frame that held a drawing that was not appropriate for a school (unless it was a porn academy). 

I had to pay him off to get him to move out.  It took the movers 10 hours and they gave up.  He filled two large storage units and one smaller one.  They filled the 22’ truck twice and he was taking loads of things in his car.  He moved in with a friend.  I somehow doubt they are still friends.  At one point he talked about moving into the neighbor’s open apartment.  I took a risk and let the neighbor see the garage and inside his apartment.  I swore him to secrecy.  Ended that move next door plan.  I like that neighbor too much to wish this guy on him. 

Every now and then I receive a package for him.  He registered for some lists that help you find out of print paperbacks.  He didn’t update his address, so these will show up at my house.  I don’t have his address so I add them to my bag to donate to friends of the public library.  For anyone else I would find a way to get them to him.  For him, no.  I figure they will be just another thing thrown onto a pile of junk in his house that will someday come crashing down.     

I have sent approximately $50,000 repairing the damage to the apartment and the house caused by his hoard. 

[enoughcats]

A question came up of what we can expect the VA to do about Veterans who hoard.

Quote

  15 HOURS AGO, AUNTJESS SAID:

I'd think any health worker would be a mandated reporter, especially when there are children or animals, or vermin is impacting the neighbors.

You'd think, but either they aren't, or don't want to be bothered.

We were waiting for the VA to take one look at his place (or smell) and say "Nope.  You're leaving now."  That didn't happen.  They just shrugged their shoulders, and I don't know if they even reported it internally.

In our closest city the VA couldn't give a rat's a$$.  They work to keep their beds filled.  My FIL and MIL were getting up in years and ended up in a geriatric evaluation ward.  Both failed the minimental tests.  He also did something rather disgusting when he thought she wasn't getting the right care, and his evaluation further suffered when the nurses heard her telling him what to do.  She was already Bat $hit crazy and they reasoned he was, too, or he wouldn't have let her boss him around.  So we signed him up for a place in the VA hospital.  She went into care where she could throw chairs around as long as she had the energy.  He got worse, and she died.  He got even worse and started seeing dead people who weren't there (nor had they ever been there.)  

After three+ years he died, and never got into the VA hospital.  They were a success.  They kept their beds filled. 

[smores]

I don't know about the VA, but I can say that my father was a hoarder.  He was not a VA patient, however, he did have section 8 housing and it was inspected every year, by the state as well as his landlord.  I was never sure how they were ok with it, but no one had a problem with it.  They came through, saw it, and then signed off on it for another year.  When he died, I hadn't been in his home for about 8 years (I live in another state and he tried very hard to keep people out of his home), so it was quite a shock.  He had also begun to hoard up my grandmother's home, she lived nearby and he was helping to care for her and spent time there everyday.  

I always knew I was going to have to clean out his house, and I always knew he was a hoarder.  Over the years there were conversations and arguments about getting rid of stuff (my parents divorced when I was very young and I didn't live with him), and he was pretty much like any hoarder you see on tv, he wasn't a hoarder, his stuff was not a hoard, he was collecting things and they were valuable.  Etc, etc.  In many ways, I was lucky because he died before it became an issue that was forced to be addressed, and I was able to just deal with it without having him to fight with.  I will say that I was extremely grateful for the show having been on.  Without it, I wouldn't have had a clue where to start with the mess.  I actually did end up calling 1 800 GOT JUNK.  Having watched a few seasons, my husband and I would talk and we had made some random plans about what we would do eventually.  My father ended up dying suddenly, so most of those plans didn't happen, but we at least had some idea of what to do.

[Mrsjumbo]

So I went to make my yearly visit to my parent's house. They knew I was coming so the living room, kitchen, dining room & bathrooms were picked up & cleaned.

 

Listening to their conversations they don't realize how crazy they sound. My mother was telling me how they bought a side table 18 YEARS ago & it's still sitting in the shipping box in the hallway. She's waiting for dad to get it out of the box & set it up. 

 

Despite the main main rooms being cleaned, here's dads tv room: 

[Mrsjumbo]

my mother's bedroom.

she has clothes in closets in 3 rooms. She told me that the rod fell down in one of the closets a few weeks ago & those are her "summer clothes" so she's picking clothes out to wear every day off of the closet floor. I'm going to have to call my little sister to take care of it.

[Mrsjumbo]

More sitting room.

I didn't even go into the basement... couldn't face that mess.

[AZChristian]

And if a social worker or home nurse was there, they would say, "We've seen worse."

[QuinnInND]

As an OCD neat clean freak, those pictures make me twitchy. 

[smores]

Me too.  I really don't understand the disconnect where someone lives like that (and, I am talking about my own father, please don't think Mrsjumbo that I'm singling your parents out) and then can go to someone else's house, watch tv, see people and workplaces around them and then come home and think it's a totally normal way to live.  Sure, there aren't diapers piled up, or animals (or people!) living under the piles, but still.  My father said he "collected things" and would admit that some areas were "a little messy" but that was it.  And when he said something was a little messy, he didn't mean the entire room that you could only walk through in one path because of the mountains of vhs tapes and bins of other crap, or the couch that only one person could sit on because of more VHS tapes.  He meant the little table next to the chair he sat in, where he would have piles of newspapers he hadn't read yet, so he had his scissors ready to cut out any interesting articles, stacks of coupons, etc.  THAT was the "little messy" part, just that tiny end table.  The rest, it was clean and organized.  

[enoughcats]

Dear  Lord, I had forgotten the king sized boxes of Corn Flakes.  My Mother had 12 and only six had mice in them.  

The kitchen pantry was a disaster, the rest of the house was neat.  But those damned boxes of Corn Flakes.  A blast from the past.

[camom]

Quote

On top of it all, your mom is a thief and you could actually have her arrested for identity theft, but I'm sure you wouldn't do that (I wouldn't either).  Yikes.  My heart goes out to you.

I wouldn't prosecute -- the first time.  After that I just might.  

I have a hoarder down the street, and last week he moved to another state!  It took months to clear out the house and sort through everything.  So glad he is gone.

[funky-rat]

The cranky old neighbors of ours (who I suspect are hoarders) set up for a yard sale last week.  For starters, it's a waste of time to do yard sales where we live.  No one wants to drive out there, and find us (and we live on the back row of our neighborhood).  I always tag on to other people's yard sales.  I was somewhat intrigued by what they were going to put out.  About 2 card tables worth of stuff.  And nothing there - save for a stainless steel stock pot that looked new, and an electric roaster - was worth anything at all.  Ugly homemade plastic lamps that were all the rage here years ago (made from plastic flower pots and Lite Brite pegs).  And ancient old tiny lunch cooler.   There was a halfway decent cooler they had that looked like a football, until I saw that it had a HUGE auto dealership logo on it (where they got their car last year), so that's pointless.  Lots of plastic stuff out for sale.  After the first day, the stock pot was gone (I didn't need one, but it was nice looking).  I didn't see much of anything else go over the next 3 days.  No clue how much she priced stuff.  I do know that they left the stuff outside in the driveway the entire time - uncovered - and it rained.  I guess everything went back in to their house, or their full storage building.

[enoughcats]

Hoarders did a couple of episodes in Canada.  According to the linked article about off site storage rental, Canadians rent only two squarer feet of storage per capita.  Americans rent per capita  nine  square feet per year.

There's also an excellent bit of snark about 

Quote

will transform a former Target in Oshawa into a Dymon. That renovation, once completed, will have performed a neat trick: converting a space that once sold junk into one that, at a cost, will hold it for you in a humidity-controlled environment.

 

Canada's new real estate war

[funky-rat]

Hoarder neighbors are selling their place, and moving - I'm guessing to some sort of assisted living thing.  He isn't moving around real well (never did, but it's worse now) and I see a 2nd car in their driveway every night, which I assume is some sort of nurse.  He hangs out in the front bedroom all day (he doesn't close the blinds) watching TV - I assume he lives in there. 

I was curious, so I pulled up the listing.  A few things were telling:

1) They're selling for less than what they paid for it about 1.5 years ago.  Some may be that they hurt some of their resale value by removing the standard storage shed, and putting in an odd out-building that just has a house door (instead of double doors, perfect for putting in a snow blower, lawn mower, etc - harder to do with a single house door) that is chocked to the brim with boxes of stuff.  Their place is 25-ish years newer than ours, but they're not getting a ton more for it than we paid for our 1977 home (and we did not overpay).  Theirs has one less bedroom than ours, but has an extra bathroom, and a sun room on the back.  They also have skylights, and a partially enclosed porch.

2) Theirs was the only listing that had ZERO inside photos.  Just outside.  Even some of the older, not-as-nice places had at least one inside photo.

3) They had 2 little Yorkies.  I haven't seen them in eons, and there are 2 small dog crates sitting outside with a note on them ($15 ea).  They've been rained on countless times.  They make no effort to cover them, or at least pull them under their roofed porch.  I'm hoping they didn't turn in to saildogs after getting lost somewhere.

4) The listings go on a main site, but she also usually lists available stuff on other sites, including Craigslist, because she can post more photos.  She didn't list it anywhere else.

I'm now chomping at the bit to see what it looks like in there, lol.

[mamadrama]

You all might appreciate this...Dr. Chabaud contacted me last week. I am part of a children of hoarders group and she got in touch with me about working with her on a future project. She provided her home phone number, as well as her office contact info, but so far I've only written a reply. To be honest, I am kind of nervous about speaking with her. :-) I do want to move forward on the project, though. She's done a lot of good work for those of us who are COH. 

[JudyObscure]

Very cool, Mamadrama!  I would be thrilled to get a call from the wonderful, ever-calm Dr. Suzaaahn.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Very cool, Mamadrama!  I would be thrilled to get a call from the wonderful, ever-calm Dr. Suzaaahn.

She's apparently fun to hang out with, too. I've heard stories about bars and drinking. 

[JudyObscure]

Aha!  Now we might have a clue  to how she remains so mellow in the face of hoarders who just can't part with that rat feces covered tea towel. :)

[AZChristian]

6 hours ago, mamadrama said:

You all might appreciate this...Dr. Chabaud contacted me last week. I am part of a children of hoarders group and she got in touch with me about working with her on a future project. She provided her home phone number, as well as her office contact info, but so far I've only written a reply. To be honest, I am kind of nervous about speaking with her. :-) I do want to move forward on the project, though. She's done a lot of good work for those of us who are COH. 

You go, girl!!!!

[mamadrama]

One of the things she told me in her email was that she'd had a stroke last year and had apparently taken the year off. She was just now getting around to contacting people, getting active on the internet again, etc. I was sorry to hear that. 

[atlantaloves]

I actually witnessed a friend of mine, who is a total hoarder, trying to give a very high end thrift store some stained stinky clothing....saying that I, her friend, said that they didn't accept clothing that was stained..... they don't, everything has to be dry cleaned or freshly cleaned......the expression on this poor lady's face at the shop was priceless.....I just left and went out to my car ---- I could not listen to it any more.   Well, at least that was some crap that left the pile of dirty clothing that is always in her car to be donated that will be thrown out or given to a shelter. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE....stained clothing is fine to wear? I guess so, cause my buddy wears crap like that all the time, and she is loaded. And this is a gal who buys 900.00 handbags an doesn't blink an eye. God, I give up. 

[JudyObscure]

14 hours ago, atlantaloves said:

And this is a gal who buys 900.00 handbags an doesn't blink an eye

I just watched the movie "Jasmine," where the Cate Blanchet character claims penury and moves in with her poor sister dragging behind her about $15,000  worth of Louis Vuitton luggage. Being a fashion moron, I was shocked to see what it looked like -- ugly brown and black checks with little printed hearts and what not.   Why?

[atlantaloves]

Oh yeah, and that character in Blue Jasmine was sporting a 10,000.00 Birkin bag as well. Whoa, she was totally insane and deserved what she got in the end! Good movie though! 

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, atlantaloves said:

10,000.00 Birkin bag as well

Wow, I had no idea.  Another one who got what he deserved is the "future senator" boy friend who almost married her.  He was so offended when he found out about her past, but the reason he had noticed her in the first place was that she had so much "style," then he listed all the high-end name brands like the purse, her belt, and her scarf.  That's not what I call style, I just call that buying the most expensive stuff around.  Style is being able to look fabulous in what you bought at Penny's.

No criticism meant toward anyone who buys those things because they really like or enjoy them. It's making them so important you'd rather starve that bewilders me.

 

I had to go see what a Birkin bag looked like and then I found this bag while I was shopping:

https://www.ebay.com/i/331881567291?chn=ps&dispctrl=1

Edited November 10, 2017 by JudyObscure
eta:This has opened a whole new world for me.

[atlantaloves]

Yeah, the boyfriend was very into "things" but man, he wasn't into liars. 

[funky-rat]

Hoarder neighbors are gone.  It happened quick.  No yard sale or endless boxes sitting around.  My guess is they took it all to storage, or their new homestead.  My money is on storage, as it appears they're moving to some sort of senior living situation, as his health was never great.

The new neighbors are a family with 2 kids (boy and girl).  It's only a 2 bedroom - I wouldn't like that.  Around two weeks ago, one of those "pods" was dropped off, and it was gone over the weekend, and the place looks nice.  Right after the pod got dropped off, we noticed a pile of junk sitting in the side yard.  Apparently hoarder neighbors left stuff behind, including a broken recliner and some bound yucky looking carpet..  Jerks.

[enoughcats]

3 minutes ago, funky-rat said:

some bound yucky looking carpet..

In the movies, there'd be a body in the carpet.  

. 

[atlantaloves]

okay, I got a new one for you guys who have hoarder friends, my same friend, who has got to buy a new car pretty soon ,her car is a WRECK --- she is going to STORE HER OLD CAR and pay to store it, and she has to keep insurance on it, and the reason she gave me.....ready for THIS.....IT'S MINE.  I suggested donating to someplace where maybe they could fix it up so somebody could use it, but noooooooooooooooooooooo.....It's mine.  (the car is 25 years old) 

[enoughcats]

It's 2018.  I hope all here are having a great this year.  We are well, even though we have a goat farm next door.  Good neighbors, but they are trying to earn some extra money.  Goats!  Sound like kitty cats in distress sometimes.  Goats like to stand on things, did you know that? 

Oh, for our now deceased former next door neighbor who hoarded dogs.  He left the house to his lady friend....and now the couple who live there...are decent people.  She knows the yard is a mess, His brother is getting on him about the mess.  

She's asked us if we noticed.  Yes, said my husband, you can even see it from outer space. So we've printed a google earth picture of their treeless yard.  We're out in the country, but very expensive houses are being built on five acre lots and the satellite imagery is fine so the tax assessors can measure sizes for taxes.  So far we can pick out the goat lean to's but no individual goats have been photographed, yet. 

He keeps bringing stuff that is junked at work, because it might be useful.  Stay tuned, this is far from over.

[AZChristian]

We continue to beat our heads against the wall with my near-hoarder, full-on hypochondriac older brother (78).  He had a medical emergency 16 months ago; while he was in the hospital and rehab center (about 10 days), we cleared off his back patio because the landlord left a notice:  Clean the patio up, or you'll be evicted.

My husband deals with him better than I do.  I end up using four- and twelve-letter words with bro that I don't use on anyone else on earth - he loves to push me to that point and then act all offended at my language.  But I digress.

Hubby told me the other day that the patio is now in worse shape than it was when we cleaned it up.  Bro finally agreed to let us post a non-working electric mobility scooter that has been under a tarp for over 5 years on the patio.  We live in the desert.  You can just imagine how filthy it was.  If he doesn't clean up the inside of his house, you know he hasn't bothered with wiping down the scooter.  As soon as he said, "I guess I could let it go," I put it in the "FREE" section of Craigslist, and it was gone in less than 2 hours.  

I flat-out refused to talk to him yesterday when we met the recipients of the scooter at his place.  He said something to me, and I looked at him and said, "I am NOT talking to you.  Don't go there."  So his pushback reply was, "If there's a problem and you don't tell me what it is, how can it be resolved?"  I said, "I've told you the problem (his filthy environment) 50 times.  Telling you again is a waste of my breath.  Don't go there."  He, wisely, shut up.

Hubby went over there with a "to-do" list for him today because (as part of his pretense to get sympathy), he says he doesn't get anything done because he stops in the middle and forgets to get back to things.  "Here's a list.  Get this done by Monday.  Otherwise, you'll need to rely on cabs to get you to the store and to doctor visits.  If you're not going to help yourself, we're not going to help you either.  Period.  Do it, or we're done."  So he got all "What was (my name)'s problem yesterday?  She was really mad."  Hubby responded, "I'm really proud of her.  She didn't call you the names she sometimes does, and goodness knows you deserved them."  Bro was a little shocked that hubby didn't fall for his innocent act.  

The plan is that we will give him a list . . . for one room at a time . . .  Stuff that just clutters the place will be put into bins and we'll keep them temporarily in our storage shed.  Undersized clothing has to be donated or disposed of.  When the place is down to bare bones, we'll clean the carpet and he's going to order new living room furniture.  Then we'll bring back the boxes, one at a time.  He's going to have to defend every item.  If it's something halfway worthwhile and he has a place for it, he can keep it.  If it serves no purpose and looks like crap, he's going to hear "my words" again.  

None of the psychologists on the hoarding shows would approve, but I'm calling it tough love.  He's going to end up in a nursing home if he keeps tripping on all his crap.  Or he's going to be evicted.  And he is NOT moving in with us.

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, AZChristian said:

 

The plan is that we will give him a list . . . for one room at a time . . .  Stuff that just clutters the place will be put into bins and we'll keep them temporarily in our storage shed.  Undersized clothing has to be donated or disposed of.  When the place is down to bare bones, we'll clean the carpet and he's going to order new living room furniture.  Then we'll bring back the boxes, one at a time.  He's going to have to defend every item.  If it's something halfway worthwhile and he has a place for it, he can keep it.  If it serves no purpose and looks like crap, he's going to hear "my words" again.  

 

Great plan! 

I need to get rid of some undersized clothing myself. I'm telling myself that if I actually do lose weight I can buy new stuff, it's out of style anyway.

[AZChristian]

So, Bro agreed to let go of a box of 103 old Atari game cartridges.  Bear in mind, he does not have (nor has he ever had) a game console - just the cartridges.  Sitting in a box in his closet, taking up space and collecting dust.

So a nearby place gave us $96 for them.  And then we went to Ikea and bought a shelf unit that will allow more vertical storage in that same closet.  It was only $63.

So win/win.  More space, and the storage was kind of "free."

[enoughcats]

The goat farm next door is now a smallish lot, subdivided into goat paddocks.  The last grass (Front yard) is being divided into additional paddocks. There is no landscaping, no grass, and a hoarded out carport on the other side of the house. And it's spring/summer and the flies are too well fed.

[funky-rat]

16 hours ago, AZChristian said:

So, Bro agreed to let go of a box of 103 old Atari game cartridges.  Bear in mind, he does not have (nor has he ever had) a game console - just the cartridges.  Sitting in a box in his closet, taking up space and collecting dust.

**Hangs head because has more than 103 Atari cartridges in a box in the closet**

However, I do have a console, and do play it occasionally.  And my closet it organized.

[AZChristian]

1 minute ago, funky-rat said:

**Hangs head because has more than 103 Atari cartridges in a box in the closet**

However, I do have a console, and do play it occasionally.  And my closet it organized.

So if you were my sibling, I would have no argument with you.