Mad Men - General Discussion

[jnymph]

After re-watching some of the season 1 episodes during the AMC marathon showings; I was struck by how much of a decline this show has taken.   Season 1 -3  were phenomenal; I almost forgot that fact.

[Sweets McGee]

After re-watching some of the season 1 episodes during the AMC marathon showings; I was struck by how much of a decline this show has taken.   Season 1 -3  were phenomenal; I almost forgot that fact.

The "decline" is not a fact. Personally I enjoy the later seasons (4+) more. But I've said that many times here, no need to rehash.

[Juneau Gal]

After re-watching some of the season 1 episodes during the AMC marathon showings; I was struck by how much of a decline this show has taken.   Season 1 -3  were phenomenal; I almost forgot that fact.

r

I agree, but I think what drives my agreement is that I just got plain tired of what I saw as a lack of evolution with the Don character. After season 4 it just got very, very tedious for me seeing him self-destruct again and again. The show is still stellar, I just got worn out by it.

[cooksdelight]

This rewatch marathon hit home with me how much I enjoyed the first few seasons as well. Betty and Don were at their best when they were together. Yes, he cheated on her like a louse, but now that I know where he winds up (with Megan, then without) I think he may agree that his marriage to Betty was the best thing to happen in his life. His work was also at it's best. The agency was more interesting before Layne came along and everything changed.

[txhorns79]

I think he may agree that his marriage to Betty was the best thing to happen in his life.

 

I would say that his relationship with Anna was the best thing to happen in his life.  While I think Don loved and valued Betty, he was much more intimate and open with Anna than he ever was with Betty. 

Edited May 15, 2015 by txhorns79

[Sweets McGee]

I do love going back and seeing the S1 Don & Betty interactions after seeing the rest of the show. So young, so in love. What a big difference 10+ years make.

[turbogirlnyc]

The "decline" is not a fact. Personally I enjoy the later seasons (4+) more. But I've said that many times here, no need to rehash.

It may not be a fact but boy did Megan bring it down a notch. MMV, of course.

Betty did smoke like a chimney. I wonder if pressure to be thin and anxiety had a role to play. As well as being a stay at home mom.

This is a little late but were people seriously unable to stop crying (per Betty) when Kennedy was assassinated? My parents told me, meh, we were at school when everyone found out.

The only comparison I can think of for my generation is 9/11 but that involved thousands of people being killed. I'm just curious.

Edited May 15, 2015 by turbogirlnyc

[Sweets McGee]

I always wonder that too, about the people crying. I don't ever cry over people I don't know personally, but maybe that's just me.

[cooksdelight]

I had just turned four when Kennedy died, and I remember my entire family -- dad, mom, grandparents, aunts, uncles -- in the living room transfixed by the little B&W television my grandparents had. I knew something bad had happened, and I remember seeing the flag-draped casket but I didn't fully understand what was going on. There was a lot of crying.

When Betty was pregnant with Gene, not only was she smoking but she was drinking as well. A gimlet in the bar where she picked up the guy for a quickie. My mother smoked her entire life, while she was pregnant with each of us, because no one told her it was a bad thing.

[wendyg]

My mother, who I saw cry twice in my life and who taught all her kids never to cry in public - was crying when she opened the door for me that day when I got home from school. Not sobbing horribly, but she was definitely crying and very upset and shocked. I was nine.

[Juneau Gal]

My very first vivid memory, I had just turned five, was of our next door neighbor in Detroit - she had a big Catholic family - coming into our kitchen sobbing and telling my mom of the assassination. It was a very unsettled time and then rolled into an even more unsettled time with Vietnam. When I think back to my childhood growing up in the 60s and early 70s, there is a pervasive shadow of fear overlaying much of it. We really did live under the specter that the world could end at any minute thanks to the Cold War etal. Mad Men captures that feeling very well.

[jnymph]

The "decline" is not a fact. Personally I enjoy the later seasons (4+) more. But I've said that many times here, no need to rehash.

My apologies........"fact" was bad choice of words.

I meant it as Just my opinion.

Edited May 15, 2015 by jnymph

[cooksdelight]

Oh good lord, Joan is in for a checkup with her OB-GYN and the man is smoking a cigarette in the exam room!

[suomi]

Ha! When I was born (1950) the doctor came into my mom's room the next morning, pulled a chair close to the bed, shook ciggies from his pack, and they both lit up.

_ _ _ _ _

 

When JFK died some of the teachers at school cried for the rest of the day, some were able to carry on. Then I got home and my mom was crying, which she continued to do until her eyes were swollen shut. She slept on the couch in front of the TV for 3 nights and cried for 3 days, with mounds of kleenex everywhere.

[DianeDobbler]

I agree, but I think what drives my agreement is that I just got plain tired of what I saw as a lack of evolution with the Don character. After season 4 it just got very, very tedious for me seeing him self-destruct again and again. The show is still stellar, I just got worn out by it.

 

For me, it's more about self-destructing the SAME WAY. You can take the basics - mistress plus drinking plus unconventional behavior on the job - and put twists on it. Write the elements as actual characters, so you mix it up a little. Instead it was, oh look, the same elements are reappearing. If the story is headed where I think it is, it's a good story, and quite clever. Sort of the opposite of Breaking Bad, where we knew how it would end with Walter White, but wanted to see it happen and how it happened, I guess. With Mad Men, it sort of set up that we KNEW where it was going with Don, because he appeared to be coming apart the entire time, except there's this other story underneath where he's really not - he's becoming himself. That "really not" piece of it is what makes it different from all the other "difficult men" shows, particularly with the death of Betty and the plight of the kids, an event and finale that, to me, augers to redeem Mad Men from its past X number of seasons stasis, against all expectations.

 

It's just that the journey, IMO, was WAY more tedious than it needed to be, with wasted side trips. If you look at The Sopranos, IMO it was very uneven, and the best/strongest story arc was Season 1, the mother. However, along the way there were some entertaining short arcs, some of which featured Tony's quite diverse mistresses. There was Gloria, very sexy and sultry, he thought was his soulmate, but she turns out to be his mom! There was the Russian woman with the limp - sort of a real curve ball as she was connected to his longer term, younger, more glamorous mistress. There's plenty of stretches of the Sopranos where I was like "Shoot me now." but the show did a good job mixing things up when it got down to repeating the basics. With Mad Men, it was Groundhog Day.

Edited May 15, 2015 by DianeDobbler

[Umbelina]

It may not be a fact but boy did Megan bring it down a notch. MMV, of course.

Betty did smoke like a chimney. I wonder if pressure to be thin and anxiety had a role to play. As well as being a stay at home mom.

This is a little late but were people seriously unable to stop crying (per Betty) when Kennedy was assassinated? My parents told me, meh, we were at school when everyone found out.

The only comparison I can think of for my generation is 9/11 but that involved thousands of people being killed. I'm just curious.

That was so well done.

 

Pete's line was one of many that really stood out to me as capturing the feel of that time.  Not a direct quote but "Just when things were finally looking better, more hopeful."

 

It was so shocking, and very few people believed Oswald did it, in spite of the constant press about his trip to Russia, etc.  It played endlessly on television for days, on all channels.  My mother was convinced Jack Ruby was hired by USA/Cuba/FBI people.  It was well known how much J Edgar Hoover detested the Kennedys.   As for me, I remember specifically this young kid saying that they weren't letting him speak to a lawyer, and that he was a "patsy." 

 

I was just a bit older than Sally, and I was at school.  Teachers were crying, and we were all sent home.  I didn't really know what was going on, they didn't tell us.  On the way home I ran  into two neighbor friends of mine that went to Catholic School (also dismissed) and they were crying, told me all the nuns were crying, and they were going home to pray.

 

Once I got home, my mom, kind of a wiser Betty type (very beautiful but not as immature) had a cigarette and the TV on, told us what happened.

 

I was watching when Oswald was killed.  Betty's "WHAT IS HAPPENING?" felt so real to me.  It was just another extremely shock, on top of shocks.

 

My mother, who didn't like Jackie (oddly she knew Marilyn personally from her early days in Hollywood and resented her treatment by the Kennedy's, always felt they had her killed, so she didn't like them) commented on odd things.  She specifically said Jackie was wearing his blood all over her clothing on purpose (which she was, "let them see what they've done.")  She also said things about the pageantry of the funeral that weren't very flattering, but in the end, when John John saluted, although she again implied "that Jackie planned that to tug at heartstrings" she also wiped away a tear.

 

Oddly enough, later in life my mother loved Jackie Onassis, she, unlike many, really applauded her marrying the old rich guy and getting her kids out of the USA and away from the circus.  She loved her becoming a book editor too.  So early dislike turned into admiration, even though she was never a Kennedy fan.  Mom was always slightly out of step with the prevailing opinions.  When others thought Jackie a saint, my mom really couldn't stand her.  When others were appalled at Jackie dishonoring Jack and the USA by marrying rich and splitting to Greece, my mom applauded her.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Umbelina

[CajunGirl]

I haven't moved from the couch since the marathon started (except when nature has called). Unfortunately, I fell asleep last night before the episode where Peggy tells Pete about their baby. Thank God for Netflix.

I wanted to thank all of you for your insightful comments. Like many of you, I've watched MM since the first episode and so much of Sally's story mirrors my own... My dad was Don Draper and my mom was a Betty. It took me years to understand how being married to a man like that can change a woman. I know my mom wanted to be a better mother, but it's hard when you're too busy trying to figure out ways to keep your wandering husband satisfied (which is impossible).

Binge watching the series has given me a whole new perspective and some different opinions. I used to think January Jones was the weak acting link. But I now see her as playing the role perfectly. I've also never given enough credit to the actress who played Anna Draper. She was only in a handful of episodes but Melinda Page Harrison's portrayal of this compassionate salt-of-the-earth character was beautiful. Unfortunately, the Megan era is fast approaching and I know I won't change my opinion of Jessica Pare's acting. I've really loved several of this final season's episodes (the ones without the human Eeyore), but I can honestly say the Megan heavy seasons were my least favorite (although there were some excellent episodes throughout).

Is someone going to ask the mods to create a thread called "The Crying Room" for those of us who will undobtedly be in mourning after the final episode airs?

[JudyObscure]

I'm just realizing how much I like any episode with Lane in it.

[CajunGirl]

I'm just realizing how much I like any episode with Lane in it.

"The Good News" is one of my favorite episodes. Lane is so funny and happy (which makes his ultimate demise so much more tragic). And I love the nuanced scenes between Don and Anna. I think this was one of Jon Hamm's strongest episodes.

[Inquisitionist]

As for me, I remember specifically this young kid saying that they weren't letting him speak to a lawyer, and that he was a "patsy."

 

Yes, and that's why Oswald had to be killed, because the patsy can unravel it all.  There's a tendency now to call people who don't believe Oswald acted alone (or more likely, was involved at all) "conspiracy nuts," but there were serious investigations at the time that pointed to the impossibiity of one shooter pulling this off, and when the Warren Report came out, it was immediately dismissed as woefully incomplete and downright erroneous by anyone who knew anything about the assassination.  Now evidence is coming out that Oswald was part of the US intelligence community and that many of the actions that were used to paint him as a wacko lefty or whatever after-the-fact were things he was ordered to do.  Too bad the full records on him will probably never be unsealed while anyone who was alive at the time of the assassination is still living.

 

But I digress... I was in 2nd grade at a Catholic school in the fall of 1963, and we all bawled our eyes out at the news.

[CajunGirl]

Annnnd.... (Suddenly I have a lot to say..LOL), for those viewers who got tired of the trajectory of Don's story (continuing to make the same bad decisions over and over and constantly needing to feed ego beast with new and different women and career drama), that's exactly the story of my Dad's life. He was on his fourth wife when he died at 71 of congestive heart failure (years of smoking, which he started in the Marines as an 18-year old, led to a quadruple bypass, a pacemaker and a defibrillator by the time he was 55). Like Dick Whitman, he had an extremely tragic childhood (losing both of his parents at the hand of his father), and suffered with those demons his whole life. But no matter what, he was ALWAYS there for my brother and I when we needed him. No matter where he lived, no matter how old my bother and/or I were, if we called and asked him for help, he'd hop on the next plane to wherever we were.

That's why I want so desperately for Don to realize that the unconditional love he's always seeking is right there for the taking with his kids. If he steps up and becomes the father the kids need (and that he never had), he'll be able to live the rest of his life with few regrets.

[turbogirlnyc]

I just saw the interview panel with Megan and turned the TV off. *sigh* She didn't even stand out amongst the other ladies. I only recognized Megan from her teeth. Her chemistry with John Hamm was rather non existent, in my humble opinion.

[Umbelina]

Yes, the doubt of the real story behind Kennedy's assassination began immediately, even while people were grieving.  When Ruby shot Oswald, it increased even more.  Mad Men did touch on it a bit, but not much, Pete saying someone at the office said "the man made a lot of enemies" and I think one other comment in the episode, but mostly, they left it alone, and I think that was a good choice.

 

However, the way I remember it, as a precocious 10 year old, and probably more aware than the majority of kids?  None of the adults believed it, and "bullshit" or "they were always going to kill him" comments abounded, even during the grief.  Many thought mob, MANY thought Hoover, almost all seemed to think it internal rather than foreign, and that was during the Communist Menace days!  For me, I just remember him wanting a lawyer, and saying he was a patsy, and "of course I've been in there, I WORK there."  It hit me very strongly, and I remember asking "Why can't he have a lawyer?"  The scope of the possibilities didn't occur to me, just that this skinny little guy didn't seem capable of pulling this off.  After he was murdered, which, as I said, I watched live, and then several more times in replays, my mother's only comment was "Well, they sure shut him up fast."

[CajunGirl]

I just saw the interview panel with Megan and turned the TV off. *sigh* She didn't even stand out amongst the other ladies. I only recognized Megan from her teeth. Her chemistry with John Hamm was rather non existent, in my humble opinion.

I remember thinking she was very pretty and statuesque but awkward as hell. She always seemed to be flailing around trying to figure out what to do with her hands and/or body. I wonder what seasons 5 & 6 would have been like with a stellar actress in that role (hell, even a competent actress). Just my opinion....

[cooksdelight]

That's how I feel about Megan, if only someone better had been cast in the role I might not have laughed at her as much as I did. When she wasn't trying to be funny.

[Cara]

Betty did smoke like a chimney. I wonder if pressure to be thin and anxiety had a role to play. As well as being a stay at home mom.

.

I can see worrying about her weight and anxiety playing a part. But being a stay at home mom? I'm not sure why you think that would be a factor.

[Umbelina]

Her acting honestly didn't bother me that much, but after reading here, and RE-watching, gosh, she really wasn't up to the standards of the rest of the cast.  I think she honestly tried though, and I think she did improve over the years.  In a regular show she would have probably been fine, but these actors are so present and so adept at batting the ball back and forth with seemingly no effort.

[cooksdelight]

These spots they are running for the show, one about "Sobriety" where Roger and Don are talking about being alcoholics.... really poor taste, in my opinion, with Hamm's recent stint in rehab. I know, I know, he's playing a character that drinks too much, but I can't help but wonder what he might think.

[cooksdelight]

Peggy's getting ready to ride the motorcycle in a circle, I cannot wait!!

[JudyObscure]

Betty did smoke like a chimney. I wonder if pressure to be thin and anxiety had a role to play.

I smoked for 25 years and the sure knowledge that I would gain weight was part of it, and the boredom when I was a SAHM was part, and the need to be alert  and focused when I was working was part of it, but all those little things are very secondary to the real reason it took me so long to quit.  Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances in the world, far more than many common drugs like cocaine, after the first few years of smoking, you keep doing it because it hurts so much when you stop.

[Sweets McGee]

Thanks to all who shared their personal memories of people grieving after the Kennedy assassination. It's just hard for those of us who weren't around yet to grasp. Different times....

[turbogirlnyc]

I can see worrying about her weight and anxiety playing a part. But being a stay at home mom? I'm not sure why you think that would be a factor.

Point taken. I forgot smoking was allowed everywhere back then.

[Ohwell]

I'm watching the Mad Men marathon right now and, oddly enough, if this show had started this year I probably wouldn't have stuck with it.  For the most part, the acting and dialog are stilted, unnatural, and strange.  I've always thought that about the show and yet I was strangely fascinated anyway. 

[RedHawk]

Does anyone else feel like so many threads we have seen in Season 7, especially part B, are tied to the earlier episodes quite well? I had forgotten so much, and watching today (a few hours, a break, a few more hours) I have been amazed at how well I think it may possibly come together. Sadly, I tuned out when Megan came in (right after the "Welcome to 1965" episode) and can't watch right now. It felt like I caught just the right episodes, however, to remind myself of so many incidents and interactions. It's been so great watching it again!

[cooksdelight]

RedHawk, I'm with you. I tuned out as soon as Megan started to make her prescence known tonight. I saw so much in the first 4 seasons that tied in to what we're winding up with. The marathon was a great idea and I'm glad AMC did this.

[cooksdelight]

Woke up to see the first interview with Ginsburg. Peggy doesn't know how right she was when she told Roger that the guy was certifiable.

[JudyObscure]

I always think Joan is at her most beautiful in this restaurant scene with Greg and his family, just before their marriage blows up.

This whole episode is gut wrenching. What a crying shame it is that Peggy and Dawn couldn't have been friends. Before the awful, awkwardness of the scene with the purse, Peggy was being more open about her feelings than I had ever seen her.

Now Joan's mother is telling her, "It's a year, it will pass, I'll help." I always thought Joan should have given her marriage that year, Greg might have come home a different man.

Edited May 16, 2015 by JudyObscure

[wendyg]

Greg wasn't going to come home: "home" was where he was a failure. He'd have re-upped in the army again. Or found some other way to avoid confronting the reality of his own and others' disappointment in him. Why would you want Joan to stay with her rapist?

[cooksdelight]

I never liked Greg at all. He looks like he's always got a chew of tobacco in his lower lip.

Seeing Pete get the shit knocked out of him by Lane was the best present this morning.

[JudyObscure]

Why would you want Joan to stay with her rapist?

Since that happened before the marriage, I thought we were supposed to assume that Joan had decided it was a one time thing and he had compensating good points. Everyone in this show has proven to be more than their worst moment. Joan isn't a prostitute because of her Jaguar moment. Peggy isn't a horrible person because she gave a baby up for adoption. Betty isn't a slut because she picked up a man in a bar. Greg had a sweet, nurturing side. He loved being a doctor, he volunteered in the poorest part of town and he loved Kevin. Mainly I wanted Kevin to have a father. I know not hating Greg is an unpopular opinion but I just don't.

[fitzfrog]

Another connection I just noticed in the marathon:  When Roger takes LSD for the first time, he's a little out of sorts when the drug kicks in.  The host tells him not to look in the mirror, but he keeps staring at himself.  Then Don appears behind him and seems to calm him down, at least in part by saying very emphatically "You're okay"--exactly what Roger said to Don in the bar a few weeks back.

[cooksdelight]

I just figured out where I've seen Peggy's boyfriend before. He played a shoe & foot fetish murderer on Law & Order SVU.

[fitzfrog]

I just figured out where I've seen Peggy's boyfriend before. He played a shoe & foot fetish murderer on Law & Order SVU.

The one whose mom smacked him on the head all the time??!!  Thank you for making that connection for me!!

[JudyObscure]

What's the opposite of anachronistic?  Peggy's mother.  I feel like I've traveled back in a time machine every time she's on screen.

[Sweets McGee]

I am sad that At the Codfish Ball is the last time we'll ever see Peggy's mom. I guess there is that .0001% chance she's in the finale, but you know. She was a great character.

[SlovakPrincess]

I am sad that At the Codfish Ball is the last time we'll ever see Peggy's mom. I guess there is that .0001% chance she's in the finale, but you know. She was a great character.

Her telling Peggy to buy a cat, then buy another one when that cat dies (as a better alternative than living with a man, unmarried) will never NOT crack me up. It's so hilariously unhelpful, but quite true to views at that time. Like, "know your proper place as a spinster!"

I wasn't a big Pete / Beth fan the first time around, but their first love scene in her living room is hot ...

And Peggy just said "Pizza House!" into the phone to get rid of Don ... hee! One of my favorite Peggy moments.

Edited May 16, 2015 by SlovakPrincess

[cooksdelight]

I'm glad Peggy told Megan off about leaving a job that was literally handed to her in the beginning, when so many others would kill for it. I think it is Megan always getting her way that pisses me off about her, and the way she just slouches around no matter what she's doing.

[Bawoman]

I couldn't stand Megan, especially in season 5, but I had to side with her here. Sure, it was a great opportunity, but what was good for Peggy didn't have to be good for her. Advertising didnt make Megan happy, and she shouldn't be faulted for that. I thought that s/l was to show how close minded Peggy could be. Advertising was her everything, so she automatically assumed it should be that for everyone else.

[Umbelina]

Since that happened before the marriage, I thought we were supposed to assume that Joan had decided it was a one time thing and he had compensating good points. Everyone in this show has proven to be more than their worst moment. Joan isn't a prostitute because of her Jaguar moment. Peggy isn't a horrible person because she gave a baby up for adoption. Betty isn't a slut because she picked up a man in a bar. Greg had a sweet, nurturing side. He loved being a doctor, he volunteered in the poorest part of town and he loved Kevin. Mainly I wanted Kevin to have a father. I know not hating Greg is an unpopular opinion but I just don't.

Oh I really hated him.

 

It wasn't just the rape, it was also the way he treated her after they were married, although God knows it was better than before they married.  I felt he deliberately tried to embarrass her during that "dance for us monkey, play the accordion" scene as well, although Joan rose beautifully to the occasion with her dignity firmly in place.  The scene when she took some initiative in bed in a fun way "You are tired, let me do the driving tonight" and he lost his hard on and rejected her?  Oh yeah, great marriage, obviously what she might want in bed was absolutely of no interest to him.  He was a liar, and a loser, and a poseur, she was always the one supporting them and being the adult, talking him up, helping him stop whining and man up for his interviews.  With Greg, it was always about his feeling of a lack of power, that's why he raped her, and continued to lord it over her and order her around.  He was an insecure asshole and no matter how hard Joan tried to reassure him and buck him up, it was never enough.

 

How exhausting.  When she told him off at that table and finally said "Did you think I forgot?" or whatever it was about the rape I nearly cheered. 

 

Greg LOVED people saluting to him and the illusions of power/respect.  Joanie was always much too good for him and she finally realized it, when he ONCE again lied his ass off to her, and kicked him out.  Ugh.

[SlovakPrincess]

Seeing Michael Ginsburg again, healthy and whole, hurts my heart a little.   Poor guy.  I hope he gets out of the psychiatric hospital eventually.   

 

Sadly, I doubt we'll get an update on Michael or Sal or any of my other old favs, in the finale.