S05.E04: News Flash

[Kate45]

6 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Now I’m just wondering if things haven’t already changed because of Nora’s continued presence in 2018. You know, the whole Back to the Future effect.

Without question things have changed. We already know that

1. Cicada is in the wrong time period (which I think will definitely end with one of the team metas dying)

2. Two metas who previously went to jail are now dead 

3. Cicada is a different person 

4. For the first time, *objects* have meta capabilities 

That’s all I remember, at this point, and it’s only 4 episodes in. Nora has changed this timeline and there’s no way she’s returning to the same timeline. Who knows what will have changed by then. 

[phoenics]

2 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

Without question things have changed. We already know that

1. Cicada is in the wrong time period (which I think will definitely end with one of the team metas dying)

2. Two metas who previously went to jail are now dead 

3. Cicada is a different person 

4. For the first time, *objects* have meta capabilities 

That’s all I remember, at this point, and it’s only 4 episodes in. Nora has changed this timeline and there’s no way she’s returning to the same timeline. Who knows what will have changed by then. 

She's probably created a twin brother.

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

4. For the first time, *objects* have meta capabilities 

 

Nora helping with the satellite changed who got hit but the piece of metal that Cicada uses, this one or the other timeline one, both would be objects with meta capabilities. So Nora didn't do that.  She might have opened the door for more of them but she also might just not have gotten around to saying, oh yeah, I saw them in the museum!  

3 minutes ago, phoenics said:

She's probably created a twin brother.

Bingo

[Kate45]

1 minute ago, phoenics said:

She's probably created a twin brother.

Tbh, I think she already has one. Her response in the premiere made me totally think she’s lying about it just being her and her mom. But, if she creates her brother, I would love that twist!

[phoenics]

7 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

Tbh, I think she already has one. Her response in the premiere made me totally think she’s lying about it just being her and her mom. But, if she creates her brother, I would love that twist!

It would definitely explain the "We're gonna need more diapers..." line.

[phoenics]

23 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

I did not take it Cecile and Caitlin sneering at Iris, but rather nervous "Yikes" smiles but that's just a side thing. 

 

 

The scene in question:

  

If they meant to convey "yikes" then DP is a horrible actress, because that's not what "yikes" looks like.  Also - they gave DP TWO "yikes" reaction shots in the scene (only one is shown here), with Cecile's in between.  Why the fuck is Caitlin SMILING?!?!  

This is more the look of people who have been WAITING for Nora to "stand up to" or "cut down" Iris.  Not "yikes".

[BkWurm1]

17 minutes ago, phoenics said:

This doesn't even make sense.  I don't need to exonerate or not exonerate myself for something I haven't done yet.  Full stop.  Nothing else matters.

Part of my frustration with this storyline is that there was really no need for Iris to even feel compelled to defend her future self. She didn't have to.  She hasn't done anything.  She could have simply said she didn't understand it and moved on.  But the writers wanted this ridiculous trumped up drama to drag on and they wanted to give the Iris Haters a bone (and throw Barry in for good measure), so we got this mess.

I agree that it does not make sense for Iris to exonerate her future self from some future mistake but that IS what she did.  She chose to take a stance and really, I guess that is what I judge in part.  So we actually agree more about this storyline than one might consider. 

I also don't think you have to worry about Iris being vilified about this by the show. I'm sure the rest of the season will be devoted to vindicating Future Iris's choice only for in the end, Future Iris not to ever have to consider making it because of timeline changes.   So it will become a moot point no matter what one's opinion on Iris's stance.    

I don't think the story beats are written with any specific intent to stir up Iris hate, if it was intentional then Barry wouldn't have agreed with her.  They took pains instead to have the moral authority of the show say she's in the right (Of course I think Barry usually is clueless so it didn't sway me, lol)   Iris is just getting drama to wrap future plot points around. 

Or do you also think the real goal is to make people hate Nora?  Because in this thread, I would say the one getting the hate is Nora and the actress that portrays her.   

1 minute ago, phoenics said:

 

The scene in question:

  

If they meant to convey "yikes" then DP is a horrible actress, because that's not what "yikes" looks like.  Also - they gave DP TWO "yikes" reaction shots in the scene (only one is shown here), with Cecile's in between.  Why the fuck is Caitlin SMILING?!?!  

This is more the look of people who have been WAITING for Nora to "stand up to" or "cut down" Iris.  Not "yikes".

I look at DP's wide unnatural expression in her eyes.  The smile is just for show.  If they are saying anything else, I'd go with, "See, I told you there's tension." From DP and From Cecile, "Whoa, I see what you were talking about."

[phoenics]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I agree that it does not make sense for Iris to exonerate her future self from some future mistake but that IS what she did.  She chose to take a stance and really, I guess that is what I judge in part.  So we actually agree more about this storyline than one might consider. 

I also don't think you have to worry about Iris being vilified about this by the show. I'm sure the rest of the season will be devoted to vindicating Future Iris's choice only for in the end, Future Iris not to ever have to consider making it because of timeline changes.   So it will become a moot point no matter what one's opinion on Iris's stance.    

I don't think the story beats are written with any specific intent to stir up Iris hate, if it was intentional then Barry wouldn't have agreed with her.  They took pains instead to have the moral authority of the show say she's in the right (Of course I think Barry usually is clueless so it didn't sway me, lol)   Iris is just getting drama to wrap future plot points around. 

Or do you also think the real goal is to make people hate Nora?  Because in this thread, I would say the one getting the hate is Nora and the actress that portrays her.   

I said the show was playing both ends against the middle.  You can drop hate bones but also realize that if you fully castigate a character - it doesn't work for the half of the fanbase that loves her.  So - just because Barry sided with Iris does not mean the show wasn't writing to curry Irishate.  The Spyn attack on Iris about her blog was a dead giveaway. So was the pitiful double "yikes" look that DP had - she got two shots to look pleased that Iris was being cut down - that's clear signaling to her fans.

And no - we still don't agree because I'm calling the writers out for having Iris even try to justify it.  It doesn't make sense narratively except to create more drama and angst - when they could have created the SAME outcome by having Barry refuse to let Nora trash Iris in their home.  So either Nora respects Iris or she moves the fuck out.  Instead, the writers had Iris inexplicably decide she was right to put in the chip (I'm not even judging whether she was right or wrong in that - just that the writing choice made NO SENSE except to curry more hate for Iris and by extension Barry).  So no - we don't agree.

I don't agree with judging present Iris for any of that - because it doesn't actually matter since we don't know anything about what happens in the future and lying Nora isn't a reliable narrator.

Edited November 4, 2018 by phoenics

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, phoenics said:

I said the show was playing both ends against the middle.  You can drop hate bones but also realize that if you fully castigate a character - it doesn't work for the half of the fanbase that loves her.  So - just because Barry sided with Iris does not mean the show wasn't writing to curry Irishate.  The Spyn attack on Iris about her blog was a dead giveaway. So was the pitiful double "yikes" look that DP had - she got two shots to look pleased that Iris was being cut down - that's clear signaling to her fans.

I do not see what you see.  I also don't think that everything that is negative that happens to Iris is about curring hate.  Characters need antagonist that challenge them or sometimes the just say something mean so that the audience is clear on who is the bad guy.  I just don't believe that whole season storylines are crafted around that kind of bone throwing.  But that's fine.  We can agree to disagree.  

[phoenics]

14 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I do not see what you see.  I also don't think that everything that is negative that happens to Iris is about curring hate.  Characters need antagonist that challenge them or sometimes the just say something mean so that the audience is clear on who is the bad guy.  I just don't believe that whole season storylines are crafted around that kind of bone throwing.  But that's fine.  We can agree to disagree.  

Sure we can - but please stop misrepresenting what I'm saying just because you don't agree.  I did NOT say that just because something negative happened to Iris that it was about currying hate.  I said that the way this storyline has played out played out this way was to give a bone to the haters.  And it has.  Look at twitter and facebook and even here, lol.  My issue is that the writing is unbalanced and manipulative to get us here and characters are acting weird to allow the imbalance to continue.  Case in point - the fact that NO ONE called Nora out for how she was treating Iris?  Until Barry finally did?  No.  The way Cecile/Cait shared that petty/catty/bitchy/smug look after Nora cut Iris down?  Spyn coming at Iris for her blog and making a false equivalence?  And the way the writers didn't give Iris a voice to dispute Spyn?  Even after Iris and Barry sided together, they gave Nora a massive amount of dialogue and point of view and forced Iris to just sit there and take it.  

Even now - Iris still gets LESS pov than other characters.  

Like I said - I know what unbalanced writing looks like and it typically happens when writers are trying to play both ends against the middle.  The writers know that CP's Iris has a LOT of haters (due to racism) as well as fans who love her and since they are now putting her front and center (the way she always should have been) they are also giving the haters a bone so they will keep watching.  I've seen this play out too many times not to recognize it.

Also - I'm just really irritated at seeing Iris being flogged for something she hasn't even done yet - and seeing folks jump on her statement at the end as an excuse to flog her as though she is futureIris.  All while being forced to watch Caitlin NEVER be held accountable for her actions where she's legit tried to murder people.  Oh and being forced to watch the show bend over backwards to retcon Caitlin's KF story to continually absolve her of any guilt.  But I have to sit through Iris be punished for desperately trying to understand why a future version of herself might have done something?

But the writers aren't leaving any hater bones... lol, okay.

Edited November 4, 2018 by phoenics

[Kate45]

@phoenics I have to say from my experience, Nora is getting a lot more hate in this storyline than Iris is getting. In fact, I’ve seen a huge downturn in the amount of Iris haters based on this storyline. The only ones continually hating Iris and calling her abusive are the SB fans, and some Iris fans. Literally everyone else I have seen has said that fandom is coming to Iris’ defense. There are large pages that are typically cesspools for Iris hate and they have defended her on every turn with this storyline. 

Most seem fed up with Nora and her quite frankly childish behavior. 

Spyn is a recurring character this season, so I don’t feel right judging their interactions until her storyline wraps up. I actually really like what Iris has gotten so far this year, and I hope her storyline turns into something you like this year. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Kate45

[SevenStars]

12 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

@phoenics I have to say from my experience, Nora is getting a lot more hate in this storyline than Iris is getting. In fact, I’ve seen a huge downturn in the amount of Iris haters based on this storyline. The only ones continually hating Iris and calling her abusive are the SB fans, and some Iris fans. Literally everyone else I have seen has said that fandom is coming to Iris’ defense. There are large pages that are typically cesspools for Iris hate and they have defended her on every turn with this storyline. 

Most seem fed up with Nora and her quite frankly childish behavior. 

Spyn is a recurring character this season, so I don’t feel right judging their interactions until her storyline wraps up. I actually really like what Irishas gotten so far this year, and I hope her storyline turns into something you like this year. 

I agree. I was actually surprise at the amount of support/defender Iris is getting in regard to this story. I just watch the scene with Nora/Iris on YouTube and I was afraid to read the comments because YouTube comment section is usually not kind to Iris but almost all the comments was in support/defending Iris in some form. Even from those who understand Nora's Pov and sympathize with her, were also able to understand and defend Iris actions. I have seen some hate but it's from the usually Iris haters who hates that Iris is even breathing. 

Also can I add that this story seems to be really good for the Flash when it comes to continuing discussion because I have not seen so much discussions days after an episode, about a flash story/episode in a long time. And it seems to be happening all over the place. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

 

Also - I'm just really irritated at seeing Iris being flogged for something she hasn't even done yet - and seeing folks jump on her statement at the end as an excuse to flog her as though she is futureIris.  All while being forced to watch Caitlin NEVER be held accountable for her actions where she's legit tried to murder people.  Oh and being forced to watch the show bend over backwards to retcon Caitlin's KF story to continually absolve her of any guilt.  But I have to sit through Iris be punished for desperately trying to understand why a future version of herself might have done something?

But the writers aren't leaving any hater bones... lol, okay.

 

1

I am holding Iris accountable for something she is doing NOW. Not in the future.  But holding a character accountable isn't about hating them.  I've been advocating for Iris since the earlier days. 

Caitlin and the Killer Frost storyline was a mess because they changed all the rules about metahumans, first saying her powers made her evil when it never worked like that before and then saying that Killer Frost wasn't even Caitlin in control so according to the show writers Caitlin really isn't' at fault.  It's poor writing and doesn't make a lot of sense but that's par for the course on many Flash storylines, it's not limited to DP and Killer Frost.  Basically, they realized at some point they didn't want to make Caitlin a villain but still wanted to play with her comic book canon alter ego who IS a villain. Again, it was poorly handled but in their way of thinking, it was handled.  It may not make a lot of sense but Flash does that often enough where I don't expect anything more.  

Quote

Sure we can - but please stop misrepresenting what I'm saying just because you don't agree.  I did NOT say that just because something negative happened to Iris that it was about currying hate.  I said that the way this storyline has played out played out this way was to give a bone to the haters.  And it has.  Look at twitter and facebook and even here, lol.  My issue is that the writing is unbalanced and manipulative to get us here and characters are acting weird to allow the imbalance to continue.  Case in point - the fact that NO ONE called Nora out for how she was treating Iris?  Until Barry finally did?  No. 

 

1

They took too long to have a conversation with Nora about what was up and I do hold it against Barry for just ignoring the issue for way too long. But if Barry called her out, then someone did call her out.   Still, other people not broaching the subject is not on Nora and that's not on Iris.

She's not a new character.  She's the one with all the audience goodwill.  Iris didn't look bad just because her daughter is clearly upset about something.  Which is why I used the general term anything negative happening to Iris. Because while it sucks for Iris that she and Nora weren't connecting, it didn't make Iris look bad. This storyline until the final scene probably universally made her look GOOD. She was continually patient and kept trying. 

The writing I disagree about being unbalanced, Iris has had a POV on how not connecting with Nora and her coolness upset her the whole time.   Iris is the one that got to confront the evil blogger and figure out she's not up to anything good. And why should Iris feel like she has to defend her blog to some jerk in a coffee shop that no one in the audience is invested in?   Why is something negative said to her bringing Iris down?  Is it true?  Cause that would only be the way I'd buy that they were writing it to convince the audience Iris's blog was a joke. (or whatever it was called)  Iris got to be right about the blogger.  She got to save the day.  She got the faith of the hero of the show.  This storyline builds up Iris.  

Quote

 

 Even after Iris and Barry sided together, they gave Nora a massive amount of dialogue and point of view and forced Iris to just sit there and take it.  

Even now - Iris still gets LESS pov than other characters. 

 

 What was Iris sitting and taking?  Nora pouring out her pain and feelings about her life was about how she felt, it wasn't about Iris.  What PoV would Iris have on it other than what they showed, that Nora's pain deeply hurt Iris to see and she hated the continued fracure in all their relationship?  Iris can't say Nora didn't feel how she felt.  It was IMO an emotional scene and I am unhappy with Iris's irrational declaration, but Iris got to say her pov on the situation and then Nora said how she felt.  That felt balanaced to me.  

Iris in the past got shafted all the time on POV and so much more, but I don't' feel that is the case in this storyline.   

Quote

Like I said - I know what unbalanced writing looks like and it typically happens when writers are trying to play both ends against the middle.  The writers know that CP's Iris has a LOT of haters (due to racism) as well as fans who love her and since they are now putting her front and center (the way she always should have been) they are also giving the haters a bone so they will keep watching.  I've seen this play out too many times not to recognize it.

I just don't agree that that is what is happening. Like I said, we can disagree because from my POV I feel that I've watched enough tv to say that the stuff like a rift between mother and daughter or pitting sort of colleagues against each other isn't about throwing bones, it's about building story and creating conflicts.  Iris has been reduced or ignored plenty of times in the past.  This is Iris right in the thick of everything and it doesn't feel the least bit shoehorned (except that she would decide to declare future self right) I just don't see how it gives "haters" any real meat.  How is this bad for Iris?  If nothing negative happened, then there would be no story and Iris would be sitting quietlyin the background.  

  Like I said, i don't even expect they will ever talk about Iris saying future Iris was right again, MAYBE in the 'previously ons' but otherwise it will all be about her good reason.  Honestly, that's a shame since it could have been a meaty storyline that would add depth to both characters.  Hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe we'll get lucky and they'll let future Iris make a mistake, at least before the new timeline erases it.  

Edited November 4, 2018 by BkWurm1

[ursula]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

 

The scene in question:

  

If they meant to convey "yikes" then DP is a horrible actress, because that's not what "yikes" looks like.  Also - they gave DP TWO "yikes" reaction shots in the scene (only one is shown here), with Cecile's in between.  Why the fuck is Caitlin SMILING?!?!  

This is more the look of people who have been WAITING for Nora to "stand up to" or "cut down" Iris.  Not "yikes".

Yeah. It looks worse everytime I see it. Either DP is that bad an actor or Caitlin is meant to look like a smug snake. Honestly not sure which is worse.

[Trini]

On 11/2/2018 at 7:16 PM, phoenics said:

It's not appeasing them to hate the show.  It's giving them bones so they watch - in a love to hate Iris kind of way.  They hate her, but they are still engaged.  And if they aren't getting SB or Iris killed off like they want, then stories like this where they have something to bash Iris over and add to the buzz about the show - well producers consider that a win....

I guess I don't follow this logic. Anti-fans (who are not a big enough part of the audience despite their amplified presence on the internet) are going to hate no matter what, and they don't need specific "bait" to do that. And if you're referring Caitlin/Killer Frost/SnowBarry fans specifically, Caitlin's sideplot about her father and KF's origins are there for their engagement.

 

11 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

... Regardless, my point is Iris has no excuse not to have told Nora she had powers and that she had a chip implanted to suppress them more than a few years into Nora's life, anything else would have been the result of Iris being controlling and manipulative. Worst of all, now Iris' past self has the gall to before she even knows why she would do it defend actions that would be indefensible even if they were in the future and Nora was chewing out the version of Iris that actually did it. On top of that, now Barry is defending Iris's future actions despite not knowing why FutureIris would do it either, just assuming outright it's for benevolent reasons. NewsFlash Barry and Iris, just because an action is done for benevolent reasons doesn't mean that action isn't still extremely EXTREMELY wrong. That's under the assumption that FutureIris did what she did for truly benevolent reasons in the first place and not because of some hangup or another. ...

I don't anyone is trying to excuse Future Iris for lying; Nora's feelings about that are valid. I don't think we have the full picture yet, though. I am hoping that it's addressed but - these writers, man.

 

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think it would be extremely hard to keep it separate when all the pain is still so very fresh for Nora.  That she normally isn't rude or mean tells me she was trying at least not to take it out on past Iris. But in this last episode, like you pointed out, she felt like Iris was stepping more into the same old same old mom role that she'd played in her future life.  And the anger really spilled out.  It's a relief at least that the topic is out in the open.  You have to feel for Nora having had no one in the current timeline to talk about this huge trauma in her life.  Of course, her anger and betrayal came out in unhealthy ways.   I just wish that Iris and Barry could have found a way to express faith in there being good intentions behind it without assuming infallibility.  All it does is alienate Nora and really strain their credibility since as everyone keeps pointing out, they don't know what happened.  ...

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I know this show and I know these writers.  I am near 100% positive that they will skirt around the part where they said it was the right thing to do and concentrate in the future on if she had a good reason and then we'll get the good reason and Nora will be sorry she ever doubted her mom and they'll never debate if Iris was wrong to not fill her in when Nora was an adult.    So knowing that, I will get it all out in this episode thread and then go back to trying not to care about some of the maddening things they do on The Flash.  ...

I get that.

Barry & Iris might not know the circumstances, but they know themselves, and each other. Plus, even though she hasn't made that decision yet, they showed Iris feeling upset about it.

The West-Allen family unit -the theme of the season- was already fractured with Nora being cold toward Iris; they weren't going to break it up even more, so of course Barry unequivocally backs Iris.

Barry & Iris (because I do not think Iris made the choice by herself) will definitely be vindicated one way or another.

[Kate45]

58 minutes ago, ursula said:

Yeah. It looks worse everytime I see it. Either DP is that bad an actor or Caitlin is meant to look like a smug snake. Honestly not sure which is worse.

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. Many of Danielle’s acting choices make it difficult to read the scenes at times. 

[Starry]

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I am holding Iris accountable for something she is doing NOW. Not in the future.  But holding a character accountable isn't about hating them.  I've been advocating for Iris since the earlier days. 

Caitlin and the Killer Frost storyline was a mess because they changed all the rules about metahumans, first saying her powers made her evil when it never worked like that before and then saying that Killer Frost wasn't even Caitlin in control so according to the show writers Caitlin really isn't' at fault.  It's poor writing and doesn't make a lot of sense but that's par for the course on many Flash storylines, it's not limited to DP and Killer Frost.  Basically, they realized at some point they didn't want to make Caitlin a villain but still wanted to play with her comic book canon alter ego who IS a villain. Again, it was poorly handled but in their way of thinking, it was handled.  It may not make a lot of sense but Flash does that often enough where I don't expect anything more. 

Caitlin and KF get bad writing but this going out of their way to absolve her of every mistake isn't par of the course for The Flash. That is limited to Caitlin. I never accepted the retcon that Caitlin and KF were two separate people but what's even more absurd and telling is that it coincided with Killer Frost's actual redemption. They don't want Caitlin to be a villain but they apparently don't want Killer Frost to be a villain either as it was shown in the Girls Night Out episode where Iris ( ha ) invalidated Cecile's feelings and pretended the accomplice in HR's murder was the reason they were able to defeat Savitar. They want to have Killer Frost as the muscle of a metahuman trafficker but they also want "innocent" Caitlin to be so desperate to get her back that she's willing to do another job for Amunet and all she gets for it is a slap on the wrist, if even. It was also Caitlin who held to a piece of the Philosopher's Stone knowing at the time that the stone had to be thrown into the SF to prevent Savitar's escape. She didn't care. She didn't care that Iris would die because all she was concerned with was getting rid of a split personality that she now misses very much, lol. And no-one, in show, thinks that Caitlin deserves to be held accountable for it? There's wanting your cake and eat it too and then there's what they've been doing with Caitlin for the last two seasons. That's not par of the course, that's the white feminist writing giving Caitlin special treatment when everyone else gets called out for lesser screw ups.

For this reason alone I get where @phoenics is coming from. The writers are giving the audience reasons to hate both Iris and Nora, who just happen to be WOC, while manipulating them into believing that Caitlin/KF is never at fault for anything. They had Barry support Iris but they also had Nora challenge her. Same with Nora. She got plenty of POV in this episode, Cecile and Caitlin sneering in the background when she shaded Iris and what it's IMO a sympathetic edit but they also had Barry dismiss her feelings. If characters are at odds with each other than the writers are giving those characters haters someone, in-show, to validate their negative feelings. That doesn't happen with Caitlin. She's always someone's victim. So if I dislike Caitlin I don't get ONE Flash character that "agrees" with me, lol. And that is despite Caitlin/KF doing evil and problematic things to the other members of Team Flash.

I actually do like that Iris and Nora are getting this story but when you factor in that both Iris and Nora are WOC who get a controversial storyline while the white woman never gets antagonized by anyone I can see why some are weary. It's because this kind of story being given to characters that are minorities exacerbates the racism/homophobia that is present in the fandom, especially when the straight white woman is treated with kids' gloves. Of course, it's also a double edged sword because while Iris and Nora get to play with better material Killer Frost remains a joke.

It's true that on this board Nora is getting way more hate than Iris ( I didn't see any hate thrown at the actress though. If anything, I see more hate directed at DP and, in one case, CP ) but I personally don't see that as a positive. I do like Nora ( she's WestAllen's daughter! ), I do see where she's coming from and it makes me a bit sad that as of now, people are either hating Iris or her child with Barry. I guess that's what happens when you're in fandom, take the good with the bad.

 

10 hours ago, ursula said:

Yeah. It looks worse everytime I see it. Either DP is that bad an actor or Caitlin is meant to look like a smug snake. Honestly not sure which is worse.

The only reason this scene didn't work for me is because of the context. Nora may be Iris' daughter but she's basically a stranger to Iris and the others in this timeline. This scene would have worked better if they were all friends and Iris was on the joke and used to this kind of shade. But given the situation, Caitlin and Cecile just end up looking petty. I didn't give it much thought though.

 

10 hours ago, Trini said:

I guess I don't follow this logic. Anti-fans (who are not a big enough part of the audience despite their amplified presence on the internet) are going to hate no matter what, and they don't need specific "bait" to do that. And if you're referring Caitlin/Killer Frost/SnowBarry fans specifically, Caitlin's sideplot about her father and KF's origins are there for their engagement.

You'd think! Barry is not a part of that story so no, they are not engaged. Looking for reasons to hate his wife has them more interested. But I do agree that antis will hate no matter what. There isn't one episode of this show they haven't found something to attack Iris over.

[Lady Calypso]

15 hours ago, phoenics said:

 

The scene in question:

  

If they meant to convey "yikes" then DP is a horrible actress, because that's not what "yikes" looks like.  Also - they gave DP TWO "yikes" reaction shots in the scene (only one is shown here), with Cecile's in between.  Why the fuck is Caitlin SMILING?!?!  

This is more the look of people who have been WAITING for Nora to "stand up to" or "cut down" Iris.  Not "yikes".

I'm pretty sure this was played to make Caitlin AND Cecile bemused by Nora's bitchy attitude toward her mother, rather than an actual "Yikes" reaction. The two are definitely smiling and trying to withhold laughter. But since nobody but Barry, eventually, came to Iris' defense in the last few episodes, it's no surprise that they don't give a shit about Iris being treated like dirt by her future daughter. And Caitlin and Cecile should know that Iris didn't do anything to warrant the bitchy remarks about her job. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm pretty sure this was played to make Caitlin AND Cecile bemused by Nora's bitchy attitude toward her mother, rather than an actual "Yikes" reaction. The two are definitely smiling and trying to withhold laughter. But since nobody but Barry, eventually, came to Iris' defense in the last few episodes, it's no surprise that they don't give a shit about Iris being treated like dirt by her future daughter. And Caitlin and Cecile should know that Iris didn't do anything to warrant the bitchy remarks about her job. 

Yeah. They should have raised their eyebrows and looked...uncomfortable at hearing such behavior that was rude and uncalled for instead of an amused ‘tee-hee!’ Reaction they actually gave.

[adora721]

4 hours ago, Starry said:

They don't want Caitlin to be a villain but they apparently don't want Killer Frost to be a villain either as it was shown in the Girls Night Out episode where Iris ( ha ) invalidated Cecile's feelings and pretended the accomplice in HR's murder was the reason they were able to defeat Savitar.

If I could give your post most a million likes, I would.

Let's not forget that, in 4x9, the villain, Amunet Black, actually told Caitlin, "You, Caitlin Snow, are and have always been remarkable." Caitlin is so sacrosanct that even villains admire her!

The writers seem to want us to think of Killer Frost the same way we think of Savitar. Savitar is an insane, murderous version of Barry Allen, but we don't hold Barry responsible for Savitar's actions. However, we have an idea about his motivations for his actions, and Savitar got his comeuppance.  However, if it's the same with Killer Frost, we don't have any real motivations for her evil acts against the team, particularly Iris. And without knowing why KF does what she does, why should the team trust KF to bring her back? Why is no one on the team questioning Cait's reasons for wanting KF back? 

I think the writers fear the backlash from certain members of the fandom if they give KF the actual fate she deserves. And if Caitlin Snow is so remarkable on her own, why does she need to be Killer Frost? 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

The writers seem to want us to think of Killer Frost the same way we think of Savitar. Savitar is an insane, murderous version of Barry Allen, but we don't hold Barry responsible for Savitar's actions. However, we have an idea about his motivations for his actions, and Savitar got his comeuppance.  However, if it's the same with Killer Frost, we don't have any real showrunners for her evil acts against the team, particularly Iris. And without knowing why KF does what she does, why should the team trust KF to bring her back? Why is no one on the team questioning Cait's reasons for wanting KF back? 

I think the writers fear the backlash from certain members of the fandom if they give KF the actual fate she deserves. And if Caitlin Snow is so remarkable on her own, why does she need to be Killer Frost? 

 

Blame the comics and show runners obsession with "masks".

[ursula]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yeah. They should have raised their eyebrows and looked...uncomfortable at hearing such behavior that was rude and uncalled for instead of an amused ‘tee-hee!’ Reaction they actually gave.

And as @SevenStars pointed out in the relationship thread, Cecile who actually brought up another young daughter shouldn't have found Nora's attitude amusing. Her reaction is just a way to validate/mitigate Caitlin's own.

[Kate45]

44 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Blame the comics and show runners obsession with "masks".

Can you explain this a bit? I’m confused. The Caitlin Snow/KF story in the comics makes perfect sense. This story on the show? It’s stupid and has never made sense. It has always been about absolving Caitlin of any and all guilt. It’s a luxury that has never been afforded to anyone else on the show. 

[scarynikki12]

Be civil to one another.  You're allowed to be in complete agreement, complete disagreement, and every stage in between.  If you can't bring yourself to be civil to your fellow posters then don't engage in the discussion. 

[adora721]

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

The Caitlin Snow/KF story in the comics makes perfect sense. This story on the show? It’s stupid and has never made sense.

I speculate that it doesn't make sense (in part) because AJK had plans to flip the WA story to make Caitlin the endgame love interest like what happened on "Arrow".  To do that, he had to keep Caitlin as "clean" and "unspoiled" as possible. However, he also had to do something with her comic alter ego, KF,  while waiting for Cait to eventually triumph as the new love interest.

So, they wrote the KF story with Cait being in control in 3x7 using cold powers to harm the team and others, then KF in control from 3x18 - 3x23, then Cait back in control at the end of 3x23-4x4, then Cait and KF being two separate people with Cait having no knowledge of the KF's actions in 4x5 onward, back to Cait knowing what KF said in 4x15. 

The only consistent part of the whole, convoluted debacle of a story was Cait somehow being exonerated from any fault and never being held responsible even when it was clear she was responsible for a lot.  The reason: So that Cait would be seen as "worthy", for lack of a better word, to still be the endgame love interest of the hero, Barry Allen.

When Cait didn't become the love interest, AJK had no plan B,  no plan C - nothing. And now he's gone. So, Cait's story has been floundering ever since S3, and this is the umpteenth attempt to land on some solid ground. I hope they succeed this time around.

Edited November 5, 2018 by adora721

[Trini]

So back to the episode -

Ralph is still an unnecessary addition to the show, but at least the writing for him has vastly improved this season. This is how he should have been written from the start: smart, capable, helpful; supporting as comic relief*, and not taking over the show.

*And the tone of the humor is also better.

Wells #657, however can go breach himself.

-----

Nitpick: So Las Vegas is "way west" of Central City?? Even though I don't think they've stated it outright, haven't they pretended that Central City is vaguely a West Coast city?

[ruby24]

Speaking of cities, did I hear right in an episode a couple weeks ago that Central City has 14 million residents??? That would put it like at #5 on the list of the biggest cities in the world.

[phoenics]

On 11/4/2018 at 12:25 AM, BkWurm1 said:

 

I look at DP's wide unnatural expression in her eyes.  The smile is just for show.  If they are saying anything else, I'd go with, "See, I told you there's tension." From DP and From Cecile, "Whoa, I see what you were talking about."

That's a generous interpretation, imo - especially given they gave Caitlin TWO shots of her reacting.  Only one was shown in this gif.

[phoenics]

On 11/4/2018 at 1:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

 

 What was Iris sitting and taking?  Nora pouring out her pain and feelings about her life was about how she felt, it wasn't about Iris.  What PoV would Iris have on it other than what they showed, that Nora's pain deeply hurt Iris to see and she hated the continued fracure in all their relationship?  Iris can't say Nora didn't feel how she felt.  It was IMO an emotional scene and I am unhappy with Iris's irrational declaration, but Iris got to say her pov on the situation and then Nora said how she felt.  That felt balanaced to me.  

 

I'm speaking specifically about Nora saying that Iris did this because Iris was controlling - they didn't let Iris respond to that.  Nora doesn't actually know why Iris did that in the future - she's making an assumption - an assumption which assumes the WORST about Iris with nothing to back it up but Nora's feelings of ire towards her mother.

My issue is - they didn't even let Iris ask Nora what FutureIris' reasoning was. That's the most simply, basic question ever, but they never had Iris ask it or Barry ask it.  That's a clear signal that Nora hasn't discussed this with her mother in the future.

[phoenics]

On 11/4/2018 at 11:08 AM, Starry said:

Caitlin and KF get bad writing but this going out of their way to absolve her of every mistake isn't par of the course for The Flash. That is limited to Caitlin. I never accepted the retcon that Caitlin and KF were two separate people but what's even more absurd and telling is that it coincided with Killer Frost's actual redemption. They don't want Caitlin to be a villain but they apparently don't want Killer Frost to be a villain either as it was shown in the Girls Night Out episode where Iris ( ha ) invalidated Cecile's feelings and pretended the accomplice in HR's murder was the reason they were able to defeat Savitar. They want to have Killer Frost as the muscle of a metahuman trafficker but they also want "innocent" Caitlin to be so desperate to get her back that she's willing to do another job for Amunet and all she gets for it is a slap on the wrist, if even. It was also Caitlin who held to a piece of the Philosopher's Stone knowing at the time that the stone had to be thrown into the SF to prevent Savitar's escape. She didn't care. She didn't care that Iris would die because all she was concerned with was getting rid of a split personality that she now misses very much, lol. And no-one, in show, thinks that Caitlin deserves to be held accountable for it? There's wanting your cake and eat it too and then there's what they've been doing with Caitlin for the last two seasons. That's not par of the course, that's the white feminist writing giving Caitlin special treatment when everyone else gets called out for lesser screw ups.

For this reason alone I get where @phoenics is coming from. The writers are giving the audience reasons to hate both Iris and Nora, who just happen to be WOC, while manipulating them into believing that Caitlin/KF is never at fault for anything. They had Barry support Iris but they also had Nora challenge her. Same with Nora. She got plenty of POV in this episode, Cecile and Caitlin sneering in the background when she shaded Iris and what it's IMO a sympathetic edit but they also had Barry dismiss her feelings. If characters are at odds with each other than the writers are giving those characters haters someone, in-show, to validate their negative feelings. That doesn't happen with Caitlin. She's always someone's victim. So if I dislike Caitlin I don't get ONE Flash character that "agrees" with me, lol. And that is despite Caitlin/KF doing evil and problematic things to the other members of Team Flash.

I actually do like that Iris and Nora are getting this story but when you factor in that both Iris and Nora are WOC who get a controversial storyline while the white woman never gets antagonized by anyone I can see why some are weary. It's because this kind of story being given to characters that are minorities exacerbates the racism/homophobia that is present in the fandom, especially when the straight white woman is treated with kids' gloves. Of course, it's also a double edged sword because while Iris and Nora get to play with better material Killer Frost remains a joke.

It's true that on this board Nora is getting way more hate than Iris ( I didn't see any hate thrown at the actress though. If anything, I see more hate directed at DP and, in one case, CP ) but I personally don't see that as a positive. I do like Nora ( she's WestAllen's daughter! ), I do see where she's coming from and it makes me a bit sad that as of now, people are either hating Iris or her child with Barry. I guess that's what happens when you're in fandom, take the good with the bad.

 

The only reason this scene didn't work for me is because of the context. Nora may be Iris' daughter but she's basically a stranger to Iris and the others in this timeline. This scene would have worked better if they were all friends and Iris was on the joke and used to this kind of shade. But given the situation, Caitlin and Cecile just end up looking petty. I didn't give it much thought though.

 

You'd think! Barry is not a part of that story so no, they are not engaged. Looking for reasons to hate his wife has them more interested. But I do agree that antis will hate no matter what. There isn't one episode of this show they haven't found something to attack Iris over.

Thank you - I really should have directed my anger at the hate bait to both Iris AND Nora.  I don't really like how they're writing Nora either - first, she's being written as far too young and immature for someone who should be mid-to-late twenties, and second, it just feels like the writers are using the character for hate bait on either side.  I don't hate Nora - I hate how she's being written and how she's being utilized by the writers. 

On the one hand, I DO like the layers in this story - but I find the execution to be faulty because the writers are trying to have their cake and eat it too.  I'm also admittedly scarred by the writing of the past 4 years and seeing 1 character coated in teflon while everyone else has to pay for their mistakes is hard.  Especially since we're in Storyline#3 of trying to exonerate and purify that teflon character.

I want to understand Nora and be on her side.  I want to understand Iris and be on her side.  I want to be able to watch without feeling like the writers are gonna screw me and WoC over.  But given how Cecile was used to prop up Caitlin's smug face and then how Spyn was used to hit Iris over the head with the #1 reason folks hated on her in S1, I don't see that happening.

[BeautifulFlower]

18 hours ago, adora721 said:

I speculate that it doesn't make sense (in part) because AJK had plans to flip the WA story to make Caitlin the endgame love interest like what happened on "Arrow".  To do that, he had to keep Caitlin as "clean" and "unspoiled" as possible. However, he also had to do something with her comic alter ego, KF,  while waiting for Cait to eventually triumph as the new love interest.

So, they wrote the KF story with Cait being in control in 3x7 using cold powers to harm the team and others, then KF in control from 3x18 - 3x23, then Cait back in control at the end of 3x23-4x4, then Cait and KF being two separate people with Cait having no knowledge of the KF's actions in 4x5 onward, back to Cait knowing what KF said in 4x15. 

The only consistent part of the whole, convoluted debacle of a story was Cait somehow being exonerated from any fault and never being held responsible even when it was clear she was responsible for a lot.  The reason: So that Cait would be seen as "worthy", for lack of a better word, to still be the endgame love interest of the hero, Barry Allen.

When Cait didn't become the love interest, AJK had no plan B,  no plan C - nothing. And now he's gone. So, Cait's story has been floundering ever since S3, and this is the umpteenth attempt to land on some solid ground. I hope they succeed this time around.

They never had plans to make Caitlin Killer Frost. When fans learned about her character from the comics, they kept asking to see killer frost. We got that in season 2. That was supposed to be the only time we Killer Frost. However, fans and also Danielle, wanted E-1 caitlin to be Killer Frost. Since E-1 becoming Killer Frost, that means she had to betray the team. Oh, they couldn't have that. Now we're stuck with this messy plot.

[Trini]

10 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Speaking of cities, did I hear right in an episode a couple weeks ago that Central City has 14 million residents??? That would put it like at #5 on the list of the biggest cities in the world.

It could be that huge of a city in the world of The Flash, but then it only has one police precinct and one CSI.... or the writers just don't care about the math. ::sigh::

[Trini]

So Sherloque put out the idea - and I'm assuming we're supposed go along with it - that Cicada was born from the shrapnel of the dark matter-infused satellite, but does that match up with what they showed us in the premiere? Because although it was vague, it seemed like Cicada already existed (but maybe not the dagger) when the satellite came down, based on the end scene of 5.01.

[adora721]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

They never had plans to make Caitlin Killer Frost. When fans learned about her character from the comics, they kept asking to see killer frost. We got that in season 2. That was supposed to be the only time we Killer Frost. However, fans and also Danielle, wanted E-1 caitlin to be Killer Frost. Since E-1 becoming Killer Frost, that means she had to betray the team. Oh, they couldn't have that. Now we're stuck with this messy plot.

Taking my response to the Caitlin Snow thread.

[BkWurm1]

On 11/4/2018 at 4:47 PM, Kate45 said:

Can you explain this a bit? I’m confused. The Caitlin Snow/KF story in the comics makes perfect sense. This story on the show? It’s stupid and has never made sense. It has always been about absolving Caitlin of any and all guilt. It’s a luxury that has never been afforded to anyone else on the show. 

What I'm referring to is the need I've seen at times in shows to bring an element that existed in the comics and apply it to the TV show even if the circumstances are too different to make it really work.  As the character of Caitlin was crafted for the show, one of the good guys, along with the show's desire to keep DP as a regular, there isn't really room for Killer Frost to exist apart from like they did it in season two, as from a different universe where she is a different character under different circumstances. 

Just because something worked in a different medium with often a vastly different setup doesn't mean it's going to fit the narrative and tone here. But because the character they have permission to use has this alter identity in the comics that can do all sorts of cool things (pun not intended), they in my opinion shoehorned it in even though it's not a good fit as evidenced by the convoluted, shifting mess of an explanation to make it ok and keep Caitlin from being evil. 

I always am in favor of when the show puts the good of the story it is trying to tell and has been telling above telling stories or including shiny things just for the sake of saying look what we did too! 

[phoenics]

19 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

What I'm referring to is the need I've seen at times in shows to bring an element that existed in the comics and apply it to the TV show even if the circumstances are too different to make it really work.  As the character of Caitlin was crafted for the show, one of the good guys, along with the show's desire to keep DP as a regular, there isn't really room for Killer Frost to exist apart from like they did it in season two, as from a different universe where she is a different character under different circumstances. 

Just because something worked in a different medium with often a vastly different setup doesn't mean it's going to fit the narrative and tone here. But because the character they have permission to use has this alter identity in the comics that can do all sorts of cool things (pun not intended), they in my opinion shoehorned it in even though it's not a good fit as evidenced by the convoluted, shifting mess of an explanation to make it ok and keep Caitlin from being evil. 

I always am in favor of when the show puts the good of the story it is trying to tell and has been telling above telling stories or including shiny things just for the sake of saying look what we did too! 

I feel like the show had 2 chances to make Cait/KF work.  The first was when Ronnie was still alive - but they killed him.  They could've rectified that by bringing him back from the dead but then they killed off Stein.  So that way was out.

But then they could have made KF work by not bending over backwards and into pretzels to have KF AND Caitlin and to keep both of them clean and absolved of all wrongdoing.  This, imo, has doomed this character.  It's given KF a messy backstory, motivation and even explanation for why she's evil.  It's made Caitlin a mess because since why KF keeps changing, we know that she was in control enough to be accountable for her actions when she 1) kidnapped Cecile, 2) aided and abetted Savitar in trying to kill Iris and actually in killing HR and 3) tried to kill Barry/Cisco.  The dialogue where Caitlin is bitter at Barry and saying he had Iris and then the scene where she nearly kills Iris with the whole freezing her arm or not thing... it makes it less likely that it was about KF's feelings but that Caitlin had her own issues with Iris and those came to the forefront.  But when you consider that there is NO canon reason why Caitlin wouldn't like Iris, then it becomes obvious that part of it was used as bait for the fans who don't like Iris and wanted to cheer on Cait/KF as long as she lashed out.  This also ties into Caitlin smug-laughing when Nora cut Iris down over the blog thing.

It's like the writers want to use Caitlin as a foil to Iris, but are too chickensh!t to actually have her come right out and admit it.  Instead, they try to make KF do it and say Caitlin has no control (except then they forget that they let Cait control her before and after that) when viewers can see that Cait does, in fact, have control.  And that her powers don't actually "make" her evil.  Which means it's actually Cait doing these things through KF.  But again - what reason would Cait have to dislike Iris?  She doesn't have one - unless the writers are trying to dance around Cait wanting to be with Barry - which really has no basis - or they're trying to dog whistle just to her fans that deep down, Cait wants Barry.  But how is that whistle louder than her scenes with Cisco?

The writers playing Caitlin/KF at both ends (doing bad things but never being held accountable) has wrecked this character.  It's a shame.  They should have left it as being played by an older woman - that would have been great to pair her with Harry.

Edited November 6, 2018 by phoenics

[Trini]

On 11/5/2018 at 3:29 PM, Trini said:

So Sherloque put out the idea - and I'm assuming we're supposed go along with it - that Cicada was born from the shrapnel of the dark matter-infused satellite, but does that match up with what they showed us in the premiere? Because although it was vague, it seemed like Cicada already existed (but maybe not the dagger) when the satellite came down, based on the end scene of 5.01.

Oops the scene was in the Comic Con trailer the came out in August. But in any case, it's convenient that Cicada is already mastering his powers when, at the time, it had only been a few days since the satellite incident.

[BkWurm1]

On 11/6/2018 at 11:55 AM, phoenics said:

.

But then they could have made KF work by not bending over backwards and into pretzels to have KF AND Caitlin and to keep both of them clean and absolved of all wrongdoing.  This, imo, has doomed this character.  It's given KF a messy backstory, motivation and even explanation for why she's evil.  It's made Caitlin a mess because since why KF keeps changing, we know that she was in control enough to be accountable for her actions when she 1) kidnapped Cecile, 2) aided and abetted Savitar in trying to kill Iris and actually in killing HR and 3) tried to kill Barry/Cisco.  The dialogue where Caitlin is bitter at Barry and saying he had Iris and then the scene where she nearly kills Iris with the whole freezing her arm or not thing... it makes it less likely that it was about KF's feelings but that Caitlin had her own issues with Iris and those came to the forefront.  But when you consider that there is NO canon reason why Caitlin wouldn't like Iris, then it becomes obvious that part of it was used as bait for the fans who don't like Iris and wanted to cheer on Cait/KF as long as she lashed out.  This also ties into Caitlin smug-laughing when Nora cut Iris down over the blog thing.

It's like the writers want to use Caitlin as a foil to Iris, but are too chickensh!t to actually have her come right out and admit it.  Instead, they try to make KF do it and say Caitlin has no control (except then they forget that they let Cait control her before and after that) when viewers can see that Cait does, in fact, have control.  And that her powers don't actually "make" her evil.  Which means it's actually Cait doing these things through KF.  But again - what reason would Cait have to dislike Iris?  She doesn't have one - unless the writers are trying to dance around Cait wanting to be with Barry - which really has no basis - or they're trying to dog whistle just to her fans that deep down, Cait wants Barry.  But how is that whistle louder than her scenes with Cisco?

The writers playing Caitlin/KF at both ends (doing bad things but never being held accountable) has wrecked this character.  It's a shame.  They should have left it as being played by an older woman - that would have been great to pair her with Harry.

 

 

I think that the show originally was doing the Caitlin turns evil when her powers show up but early on was able to suppress them at times until the evil factor took over only for Caitlin to take back some control, enough so that they toyed with saying that former all good Catlin and the former all evil Caitlin were gone and there was someone in the middle coming but chickened out over the hiatus or just latched on to a different idea and decided to have their cake and eat it too with the split personality thing.  Maybe they reasoned that at first it was just her powers poisoning her mind but later KF got strong enough to fully go solo.  I really don't buy into either solution but you asked why Caitlin would dislike Iris. 

If her mind was being poisoned by evil then just envying Iris getting to be with the man she loved rather than suffering like Caitlin did when Ronnie died would be enough reason.  It wouldn't be so much about Iris or Barry (and not about wanting to be with Barry at all since we've seen no sign of that) but Caitlin's losses and that seeing other's happy didn't set well with evil Caitlin.  

Since last season (when KF is now treated as a separate person --that Caitlin's friends seem to like better than her-such horrible writing for women!!) did she ever actually try to kill Iris?  I'm not interested in rewatching last season but I remember KF being disdainful of most of Caitlin's life, including her friends but not really giving a hoot enough to say she hated them at that point.   I maybe remember something early on last season where KF does some kind of knee-jerk attack that seemed more about hey you stay away than specifically targeting Iris but I could be mixing up seasons.  

  

17 hours ago, Trini said:

Oops the scene was in the Comic Con trailer the came out in August. But in any case, it's convenient that Cicada is already mastering his powers when, at the time, it had only been a few days since the satellite incident.

2

Barry was zooming around just a few days after he woke up and in the pilot, the particle accelerator went off and Joe's partner was killed immediately by someone that came into their powers so I think it's plausible enough. Different people have been shown to come into their powers at different speeds.  

Edited November 7, 2018 by BkWurm1

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think that the show originally was doing the Caitlin turns evil when her powers show up but early on was able to suppress them at times until the evil factor took over only for Caitlin to take back some control, enough so that they toyed with saying that former all good Catlin and the former all evil Caitlin were gone and there was someone in the middle coming but chickened out over the hiatus or just latched on to a different idea and decided to have their cake and eat it too with the split personality thing.  Maybe they reasoned that at first it was just her powers poisoning her mind but later KF got strong enough to fully go solo.  I really don't buy into either solution but you asked why Caitlin would dislike Iris. 

If her mind was being poisoned by evil then just envying Iris getting to be with the man she loved rather than suffering like Caitlin did when Ronnie died would be enough reason.  It wouldn't be so much about Iris or Barry (and not about wanting to be with Barry at all since we've seen no sign of that) but Caitlin's losses and that seeing other's happy didn't set well with evil Caitlin.  

Since last season (when KF is now treated as a separate person --that Caitlin's friends seem to like better than her-such horrible writing for women!!) did she ever actually try to kill Iris?  I'm not interested in rewatching last season but I remember KF being disdainful of most of Caitlin's life, including her friends but not really giving a hoot enough to say she hated them at that point.   I maybe remember something early on last season where KF does some kind of knee-jerk attack that seemed more about hey you stay away than specifically targeting Iris but I could be mixing up seasons.  

  

Barry was zooming around just a few days after he woke up and in the pilot, the particle accelerator went off and Joe's partner was killed immediately by someone that came into their powers so I think it's plausible enough. Different people have been shown to come into their powers at different speeds.  

 

If Caitlin was mad and directing anger at Iris because Iris was "lucky in love" (when Iris had lost a fiance too) just because she had a shot with Barry, then it would stand to reason that she'd hate everyone else who found love as well.  Cisco.  Joe.  Everyone.  That it was directed at Iris only confirms my point - that the writers were trying to let Cait have animus (that was really unfounded) at Iris without speaking it outloud because they knew her fans  would fill in their own projected reasonings for her ire at Iris.  That's my whole point.

The problem is that the writers won't let Cait own it.  They keep throwing responsibility for her actions over the fence.  So they use her to do bad/mean things to Iris and to look like she's jealous of Iris or like she wants Barry for herself (without ever supporting it with anything canon on the show), but then they won't let her own the reason for it - they just throw the blame on KF instead.  So, like you said, they have their cake and eat it too.  The Irishater fans and Cait fans who wish Iris would go away get to enjoy Cait shading/hurting/attacking Iris, but they also get to keep claiming she has some kind of moral purity because the writers never make her pay for any of it.

That's the problem with her storyline.

Also - I didn't say that Cait tried to kill Iris.  I said she aided and abetted Savitar in trying to kill Iris, and that she personally tried to kill Cisco & Barry.

Edited November 7, 2018 by phoenics

[adora721]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

 I maybe remember something early on last season where KF does some kind of knee-jerk attack that seemed more about hey you stay away than specifically targeting Iris but I could be mixing up seasons.  

In 4x5, Killer Frost threatened to freeze Iris' arm off when Iris tried to befriend her. So, not attempted murder, just a maiming threat that time. Threatening to cause physical harm is a felony.

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, adora721 said:

In 4x5, Killer Frost threatened to freeze Iris' arm off when Iris tried to befriend her. So, not attempted murder, just a maiming threat that time. Threatening to cause physical harm is a felony.

Actually she did back off from freezing Iris' arm - which would have killed Iris.  Sort of trying to kill Iris by inaction.  Her exact dialogue was "Just another few seconds and she's dead... how's that for changing the future?"  Then Julian intervened and appealed to her better angel and she resumed freezing Iris' arm to stop the spread of the deadly thing killing her from the inside (I forgot the name of the villain).

[adora721]

45 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Actually she did back off from freezing Iris' arm - which would have killed Iris.  Sort of trying to kill Iris by inaction.  Her exact dialogue was "Just another few seconds and she's dead... how's that for changing the future?"  Then Julian intervened and appealed to her better angel and she resumed freezing Iris' arm to stop the spread of the deadly thing killing her from the inside (I forgot the name of the villain).

That was in season 3, and in that case, freezing Iris' arm would have saved her. I'm talking about what she threatened to do to Iris in season 4, which would have maimed Iris had she carried out the threat.

[phoenics]

11 minutes ago, adora721 said:

That was in season 3, and in that case, freezing Iris' arm would have saved her. I'm talking about what she threatened to do to Iris in season 4, which would have maimed Iris had she carried out the threat.

I'll respond in the CS thread, as Trini suggested - well not really.

Edited November 7, 2018 by phoenics

[scarynikki12]

If your post is about anything other than this episode, take it to the appropriate thread.

[Grace19]

I guess I'm late.  Just wanted to say that  I hated that the writers had iris defend future iris.  No matter the reason for putting in the chip,  future iris should have come clean a long time ago than having nora find out on her own. 

[adora721]

I think that we, like Nora, don't know why Iris chipped Nora and never came clean about it in the future. Perhaps the chip is somehow saving Nora's life; if they are

Spoiler

doing a story similar to Bart Allen's accelerated aging story in the comics, that would be a valid reason for chipping Nora and never letting her know that she could rapidly age and die without the chip. Why burden your kid with that knowlege her entire life?

When I think of the Iris we've seen in the past 4.5 seasons, she's not controlling at all nor does she have malicious intentions. Assuming Iris has some awful motive for chipping her daughter and never telling Nora is very inconsistent with the Iris we know, and I don't believe grief over losing Barry in the future would change Iris to become deliberately malicious to anyone, let alone her own child.  Until we have a reason, I'm assuming the best about Iris' future actions.

Edited December 31, 2018 by adora721

[Froippi]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

I think that we, like Nora, don't know why Iris chipped Nora and never came clean about it in the future. Perhaps the chip is somehow saving Nora's life; if they are

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doing a story similar to Bart Allen's accelerated aging story in the comics, that would be a valid reason for chipping Nora and never letting her know that she could rapidly age and die without the chip. Why burden your kid with that knowlege her entire life?

When I think of the Iris we've seen in the past 4.5 seasons, she's not controlling at all nor does she have malicious intentions. Assuming Iris has some awful motive for chipping her daughter and never telling Nora is very inconsistent with the Iris we know, and I don't believe grief over losing Barry in the future would change Iris to become deliberately malicious to anyone, let alone her own child.  Until we have a reason, I'm assuming the best about Iris' future actions.

Well one reason is if she uses her speed Eobard Thawne could sense her presence but that would be up for debate 

[gryphon]

Nora has annoyed me from the moment she first appeared and we didn’t know who she was.   
How badly is she messing up the timeline?   Why can’t she travel back again?  
Right now, I’m watching for Cisco.