Caitlin Snow

[Trini]

29 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

But wanting to see something or not doesn't change its existence. 

Do you think Barry/Caitlin as a romantic pairing exists on the show? That's not supported by the show's canon. I've already acknowledged that there was some ship teasing that went nowhere.

9 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

If Barry/Caitlin ever happened, it would be endgame. ...

What makes you think this?
 

38 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

We'll know if WestAllen or any ship is endgame when the Flash ends - and maybe even not then.

  Reveal hidden contents

In Boy Meets World, Sean and Angela were endgame until the revival series when their entire relationship was essentially retconned. 

 

Not a similar situation, IMO. (If Angela(side character) and Cory(lead male) ended up together, maybe....) And I guess we could wait until the series finale to see who ends up with who, or we could look at the plain text of the writing now. I really don't think the showrunners are going to deviate from the tropes they're using. Yeah, the writers aren't subtle. (See also: the Nora Allen teases in Season 4)

[Katsullivan]

23 minutes ago, Trini said:

Do you think Barry/Caitlin as a romantic pairing exists on the show?

No.

Quote

That's not supported by the show's canon. I've already acknowledged that there was some ship teasing that went nowhere.

I have a problem with the ship teasing existing in the first place.

 

25 minutes ago, Trini said:

What makes you think this?

Because Caitlin is white.

25 minutes ago, Trini said:

Not a similar situation, IMO. (If Angela(side character) and Cory(lead male) ended up together, maybe....)

If anything the fact that it was a "beta" couple

Spoiler

and they  brought in the two parties just to end the relationship shows the extent of pettiness to which showrunners can and will go to. I'm guessing you've watched both series so you can appreciate that it wasn't just a case of the showrunner changing the ShawnxAngela endgame --- it was a case of re-writing the entire relationship to invalidate its OTP status. 

And the fact that the showrunners cared enough to do this to a "no stakes" relationship just because it was interracial should tell you how the US TV netscape works.

 

Quote

And I guess we could wait until the series finale to see who ends up with who, or we could look at the plain text of the writing now. I really don't think the showrunners are going to deviate from the tropes they're using. Yeah, the writers aren't subtle. (See also: the Nora Allen teases in Season 4)

It would be less like a season-long build-up like Nora Allen and more like a "if we can get away with this, we'll do it in one episode" thing.

The ship teasing will then serve as retroactive "foreshadowing".

[Trini]

Sounds like you've been burned before, so I get the concern. However, that doesn't mean The Flash will do the same thing; or that SnowBarry is endgame only because Caitlin is the nearest white girl. The showrunners made their decision that Iris is Barry's true love, and reiterated it; they've shown they're not interested in Barry/Caitlin actually happening.

[Katsullivan]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

Sounds like you've been burned before

That is an extraordinarily misleading statement. It implies that this is limited to personal experience, or "bad luck" in picking the "wrong" shows, that if one was "savvier" one would find a plethora of US TV shows were Black women are depicted fairly, and interracial relationships are thriving - and not you know, the reality that this is a pattern that exists almost universally across shows.

If anything the more pertinent question is what gives anyone the confidence that The Flash won't do what every other TV show tends to do where dynamics concerning White Women, and inter-racial relationships are concerned.

And even if we put The Flash in a bubble, and regard it on its own merit, there's nothing in this show that gives me an overwhelming amount of confidence. The show has already established that they can and will write storylines where Caitlin literally gets away with murder with no consequences while Iris gets berated and demeaned in the presence of people who are supposed to defend her; where Caitlin physically and verbally abuses Iris with impunity. As that article said clearly: White Feminism is killing the Arrowverse. 

Acting that there isn't a problem with Caitlin's characterisation, or a genuine threat from SB --- is not going to make it go away. 

[BeautifulFlower]

10 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

That is an extraordinarily misleading statement. It implies that this is limited to personal experience, or "bad luck" in picking the "wrong" shows, that if one was "savvier" one would find a plethora of US TV shows were Black women are depicted fairly, and interracial relationships are thriving - and not you know, the reality that this is a pattern that exists almost universally across shows.

If anything the more pertinent question is what gives anyone the confidence that The Flash won't do what every other TV show tends to do where dynamics concerning White Women, and inter-racial relationships are concerned.

And even if we put The Flash in a bubble, and regard it on its own merit, there's nothing in this show that gives me an overwhelming amount of confidence. The show has already established that they can and will write storylines where Caitlin literally gets away with murder with no consequences while Iris gets berated and demeaned in the presence of people who are supposed to defend her; where Caitlin physically and verbally abuses Iris with impunity. As that article said clearly: White Feminism is killing the Arrowverse. 

Acting that there isn't a problem with Caitlin's characterisation, or a genuine threat from SB --- is not going to make it go away. 

I hate the way they're writing Caitlin, but SB won't happen and is not a threat. AJK is gone. The showrunners, DC, CW executives, and etc all are for WestAllen. It's not going anywhere. The show has made it clear who the endgame couple is since the beginning. They just introduced their daughter and Todd revealed it was the producers (CW execs or WB, I forgot which one) idea. They know who they want. That's why most have confidence that WestAllen is endgame.

 

Now there is a problem with characterization for Caitlin. A lot of people recognized it (except for some of her fans who like to excuse everything she does). As someone said a long time ago, the writers probably don't even realize how Caitlin is coming off. I don't have any confidence that they will fix her. They keep trying to give her a story beyond just being team doctor, but it ain't working.

Edited June 27, 2018 by BeautifulFlower

[adora721]

My way of thinking is that until they roll credits on the series finale or Caitlin is removed from the show, there's always the possibility the show can make SB happen. I have zero desire for SB; it's just a concern based on TV history and real-world history. I say this as a 1000% WestAllen shipper from the pilot.

One of the most fundamental and sad truths is that whenever POCs make strides in the USA, there will be those who use their power to pull them back "in their place". I only hope that "The Flash" show runners and writers have the courage to stay the WA course till the end. The fact that they are keeping the DCEU Iris West played by Kiersey Clemons is very encouraging.

However, I still cannot stand how they write for Caitlin Frost, and I used to like her in previous seasons. I still watch her scenes hoping it will get better, but no luck so far.

Edited June 27, 2018 by adora721

[adora721]

37 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

They keep trying to give her a story beyond just being team doctor, but it ain't working.

And I keep wondering why she's still on the show, but Wally West is gone. Notwithstanding KL's desire to pursue his music, Wally West is a more important character in the Flash mythos and universe. Caitlin Snow is not and yet she's still here. Is it because DP has a six-year contract? Contracts can be bought out and ended amicably.

I wish they'd retcon Ronnie's supposed death in S2 as just being thrown to an alternate universe and have him come back to take her away to their Fire and Ice happily ever after. 

[Kate45]

39 minutes ago, adora721 said:

And I keep wondering why she's still on the show, but Wally West is gone. Notwithstanding KL's desire to pursue his music, Wally West is a more important character in the Flash mythos and universe. Caitlin Snow is not and yet she's still here. Is it because DP has a six-year contract? Contracts can be bought out and ended amicably.

I wish they'd retcon Ronnie's supposed death in S2 as just being thrown to an alternate universe and have him come back to take her away to their Fire and Ice happily ever after. 

Because the producers like her. They seem to genuinely love all of the actors on this show. Even when they don’t seem to have a plan for the character. It’s consistently looking like that’s the case with Caitlin and to an extent Cisco. 

Keiy left because of his anxiety issues, according to him. He found the work schedule too taxing. Plus, I think he finds the music career to be less stressful. 

All of the actors had a standard 6 year DCTV contract at the start of the show, and that didn’t stop them from killing off Rick Cosnet (Eddie). From what I’ve heard he ticked off AJK and was released from the show. I don’t see Todd ever doing something like that to Danielle or Carlos, but we shall see. 

Edited June 27, 2018 by Kate45

[Starry]

I'm not worried about SB but this show has soured me on Iris/Caitlin. This goes beyond AJK because Caitlin was still rude and dismissive towards Iris in the final episodes.

The Snowbarrisco team-up, that was written in the post-AJK era, was also obvious fan service. When you have hours until the Enlightenment you don't waste time training people who can't last in Flashtime. You recruit the person you already know doesn't get tired in Flashtime. Iris would have been a much better candidate than Caitlin for this reason alone. But they wanted a Snowbarrisco episode so who cares about logic?

[Trini]

4 hours ago, adora721 said:

My way of thinking is that until they roll credits on the series finale or Caitlin is removed from the show, there's always the possibility the show can make SB happen. I have zero desire for SB; it's just a concern based on TV history and real-world history. I say this as a 1000% WestAllen shipper from the pilot.

I choose not to live in fear, especially when all everything is pointing one way. And like mentioned before, WestAllen has the support of the showrunners, network, and the parent company.

But back to Caitlin....

4 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Because the producers like her. They seem to genuinely love all of the actors on this show. Even when they don’t seem to have a plan for the character. It’s consistently looking like that’s the case with Caitlin and to an extent Cisco. 

I figured if they were ever going to write her out, Season 4 would have been a good time to do it. But it's like you said, the producers tend to keep actors around that they like, even if there really isn't a strong narrative reason for the character (various Wells) or even if they struggle with writing a coherent story for the character (Caitlin). I think Caitlin's here until Danielle wants to leave.

[BeautifulFlower]

27 minutes ago, Trini said:

 

But back to Caitlin....

I figured if they were ever going to write her out, Season 4 would have been a good time to do it. But it's like you said, the producers tend to keep actors around that they like, even if there really isn't a strong narrative reason for the character (various Wells) or even if they struggle with writing a coherent story for the character (Caitlin). I think Caitlin's here until Danielle wants to leave.

Sadly, I agree. With what happened with Supergirl, it's obvious Danielle is the reason Caitlin is still on the show. However, can't the writers just write her off?

Out of all people, Caitlin is the one who is mostly not needed. She mostly plays doctor which is redundant at this point as metahumans can heal. Seriously, how many forced medical scenes do we have to see with it ending with Caitlin saying "you're going to be okay thanks to your healing factor"? The other times she is doing whateve scientific job the plot requires or spouting exposition. If the new Wells is a genius, he can replace her. Hell, Caitlin's been replaced before.

Or at least have Danielle drop to recurring.

[adora721]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

I choose not to live in fear

I don't know if you meant to imply this, but I am not in any way living in fear; these are fictional people after all. I would describe myself as cautious and concerned about the longevity of WA. But, if I've not made myself clear, I hope I'm wrong; I want to be wrong. I hope TV history doesn't repeat itself with WA.

However, it shouldn't be threatening to discuss the SB teasing or the BTS shenanigans that led to it. Talking about it isn't some type of voodoo or magic that will bring it into existence. Especially since the TBTB knew they were plowing a new path by racebending Iris West and yet they put the ship tease in knowing it might bait a certain type of bigoted fan. And to this day, poor CP has to deal with these fans. I suspect they would exist even if SB had never been teased, but they would have less of a focus for themselves if SB teasing hadn't happened. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by adora721

[phoenics]

I've been watching the XMen trilogy and I feel like I have stumbled across what the writers might intend to do with Caitlin/Killer Frost.  I think they are going to go the Jean Grey/Phoenix route and try to act as though CS always had these powers, and because they were so "dangerous", she repressed them (or someone locked them away into her psyche like Charles Xavier did for Jean Grey)...

It's still problematic and I still don't like it.  One, it STILL absolves her for her sins, which is unfair and makes the story on the show less layered and interesting.  And, if they do it in any way like Jean Grey on XMen:  The Last Stand, I won't be able to stand it.  Talk about white men running around desperate to save a white woman who killed numerous people because it "wasn't her".  There is even a scene where Storm (played by Halle Berry) is telling Logan to stop trying to save her since she killed the Professor and he literally grabs her in a rough way in anger - like WTF Logan?  First off - Storm saw her kill the Professor just like you did - yet you're still trying to save her.  Whatever.

I'm just not interested in more stories where mediocre white women are excused and absolved of all guilt with everyone else running around trying to "save" them from themselves, since apparently they aren't capable of being evil unless it's something else's fault and completely not THEIR fault.  Worse, the show seems bound and determined to have Iris be one of the main ones caping for her.  As if.

But... based on how the season ended... I really think that's where we are headed.

Also on a completely unrelated note - I have NEVER identified so hard with Magneto in my life given the current political climate.

[Katsullivan]

27 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Also on a completely unrelated note - I have NEVER identified so hard with Magneto in my life given the current political climate.

I have always identified with Magneto, especially since he was based off Malcolm X while Professor X was based off the Disneyfied version of Martin Luther II that is taught in school these days. 

 

 

28 minutes ago, phoenics said:

One, it STILL absolves her for her sins, which is unfair and makes the story on the show less layered and interesting.

It doesn't have to. Like it didn't make sense for Jean, and it doesn't make sense for Caitlin. Having powers does not make you evil. Having scary, dangerous powers does not make you evil. It's especially frustrating when the franchise already had a white woman with dangerous powers that couldn't be turned off in Rogue. And we see how it isolates her, and while they could have written a better arc for her in the movie, it's understandable why she would take the Cure and it gave a sympathetic "I just want to be normal" story. 

tl dr --- they can give Caitlin "I just want to be normal" without turning her into this caricature of white feminity, at once fragile and bad-ass. 

[adora721]

On 7/6/2018 at 9:35 AM, phoenics said:

I've been watching the XMen trilogy

My condolences for having to endure "X3: The Last Stand"; the worst of the trilogy. You are a brave soul.

On 7/6/2018 at 9:35 AM, phoenics said:

I'm just not interested in more stories where mediocre white women are excused and absolved of all guilt with everyone else running around trying to "save" them from themselves, since apparently they aren't capable of being evil unless it's something else's fault and completely not THEIR fault.  Worse, the show seems bound and determined to have Iris be one of the main ones caping for her.  As if.

The thing is, we've already watched them do this for Caitlin in S3 with Cisco and Julian trying to save her from being Killer Frost; so that would be highly repetitive. Additionally, how can they save Caitlin from Killer Frost when 1) KF is technically "gone" or inactive and 2)When Caitlin is actively trying to get KF back, even going so far as to promise a favor to the slave-trafficker, Amunet. Caitlin doesn't want to be saved from Killer Frost; she wants to be Killer Frost again. 

The producers have stated that S5 is about family. My guess or hope is that Caitlin finds her family has more secrets than expected that have to do with ice powers, and in trying to save her family, she sacrifices herself and dies a hero. Perhaps in trying to bring her father or brother (whoever Thomas is) back to the light, she'll finally admit that powers don't make you evil - it's a choice.

Caitlin dying for her own family takes any heat away from her dying to save Barry (SBs can't claim she did it out of true wuv) or dying to save Iris (Iris haters can't hold Iris/CP responsible). And Caitlin gets a redemption arc that she's sorely lacking.

Edited July 8, 2018 by adora721

[adora721]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

It's especially frustrating when the franchise already had a white woman with dangerous powers that couldn't be turned off in Rogue. And we see how it isolates her, and while they could have written a better arc for her in the movie, it's understandable why she would take the Cure and it gave a sympathetic "I just want to be normal" story

What they did to Rogue's character after the first movie was shameful, especially with an Oscar-winning actress like Anna Pacquin. Don't even get me started on the incomprehensible focus on Mystique in the current movies; she betrayed Charles after he saved her from literal starvation, homelessness, loneliness, and a meaningless life.  But yeah, she's a "hero" - sure...

[Trini]

What ever they do with Caitlin, I just hope she doesn't keep putting the other team members in danger.

[adora721]

On 7/6/2018 at 5:10 PM, Trini said:

What ever they do with Caitlin, I just hope she doesn't keep putting the other team members in danger.

I'm just hoping that since it seemed like Nora didn't like Caitlin that Nora won't have any problems calling Cait out on her garbage, especially since Nora knows Caity's future.

[BeautifulFlower]

I know fans have tried to explain (excuse) why Killer Frost is the way she is. However, their theories make no sense. When Caitlin turns into Killer Frost, all the heat gets removed from her body (including her heart) and that's why she was evil. Huh? Even for a fictional show, that makes no sense at all. How does heat being removed from your body makes you cold and evil?

[adora721]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I know fans have tried to explain (excuse) why Killer Frost is the way she is. However, their theories make no sense. When Caitlin turns into Killer Frost, all the heat gets removed from her body (including her heart) and that's why she was evil. Huh? Even for a fictional show, that makes no sense at all. How does heat being removed from your body makes you cold and evil?

Let's assume that this theory is true; why would Caitlin want Killer Frost back to turn Caitlin's heart evil?  Still nonsensical.

In rewatching the show from S1, I've seen two episodes in which Caitlin or Faux Wells hypothesized DID as a potential cause of unstable, criminal, or evil behavior : Firestorm and Gen. Eiling (before they realized Grodd was controlling him). And we know that Frankie had DID in S3 (as Magenta). Since KF is now submerged or otherwise inactive, why would Caitlin want a mental disorder back? Again, makes no sense. 

It'll take a miracle or genius writing to explain CS wanting an evil heart or a personality disorder back who is responsible for abetting murder, working for a slave-trafficker, attempted murders, kidnapping, stabbing, and assault. And somehow make KF and CS heroic in doing so. And no, killing Nazis doesn't make up for any of these. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by adora721

[Katsullivan]

On 08/07/2018 at 1:25 AM, adora721 said:

I'm just hoping that since it seemed like Nora didn't like Caitlin that Nora won't have any problems calling Cait out on her garbage, especially since Nora knows Caity's future.

If this was any kind of good show, I'd say that Nora's wary look in that episode was a sign that Caitlin was going to be the next season's Big Bad. But of course, we all know that's never going to happen.

 

On 06/07/2018 at 3:55 PM, adora721 said:

Caitlin dying for her own family takes any heat away from her dying to save Barry (SBs can't claim she did it out of true wuv) or dying to save Iris (Iris haters can't hold Iris/CP responsible). And Caitlin gets a redemption arc that she's sorely lacking.

I would love for them to write Caitlin dying to save Iris just to see how batshit crazy that will make certain fans. 

[wingster55]

6 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

I would love for them to write Caitlin dying to save Iris just to see how batshit crazy that will make certain fans. 

This would be amazing. 

[adora721]

Still continuing the Flash re-watch, and once again the writers tell us that powers don't make you evil; they just enhance more of who you are.

In 2x2, here's what Patty said to Sand Demon: “Getting those powers didn’t change who you really are. They only highlighted the worst parts of who you already were.”

This is the second time the writers make it clear that powers only make you more of who you already are.  The first time something like this was said was in 1x6, when Barry said to Tony (Girder) that the PA explosion, "Made us more of who we are."

Therefore, evil KF is who Caitlin already was.

[Kate45]

On 7/13/2018 at 12:17 AM, adora721 said:

Therefore, evil KF is who Caitlin already was.

The exceptions would be KF/Caitlin and Magenta/Frankie from 3x03.

[adora721]

DP admits that Caitlin flirted with Barry in S1 starting at minute 17: https://youtu.be/NEaZMIMnxyo

[BeautifulFlower]

On 7/14/2018 at 11:35 PM, Kate45 said:

The exceptions would be KF/Caitlin and Magenta/Frankie from 3x03.

Those two don't compare. In the post-Flashpoint timeline, Frankie developed DID from years of suffering from child abuse. Caitlin has shown no signs of having DID in season 3. Sure, she suffered trauma like Ronnie and Fake Jay, but Caitlin got over those. People have been saying that Caitlin was scared to go evil with her powers like Earth 2 KF. That makes no sense to me. Cisco told her that Reverb was evil, but did Cisco go evil when using his powers? No. So, why would Caitlin be afraid of ending up like her doppelganger if Cisco didn't? All of season 3, they kept painting Caitlin and Killer Frost as the same person. No mental illness at all. The split thin didn't come until season 4, just so the writers can retcon season 3.

40 minutes ago, adora721 said:

DP admits that Caitlin flirted with Barry in S1 starting at minute 17: https://youtu.be/NEaZMIMnxyo

At least she admitted the supposed flirtation was one sided and it was on Caitlin's end. Except for 1x12 and Hannibal episode, there's no way the writers were intentionally writing Caitlin flirting with Barry. Part of it had to be Danielle's acting choices.

[adora721]

8 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

So, why would Caitlin be afraid of ending up like her doppelganger if Cisco didn't? 

Ah! The irony is that in 2x5, Caitlin said to Cisco, who feared he'd be evil, “I don’t think any of us would become evil if we all of a sudden got powers.”

That's what you get folks when writers come and go or don't respect continuity or even their own established in-universe facts.

ETA: In the same video, DP says that KF would be grateful to Julian for setting her free.  So, for those who think that KF hates Barry for making her KF, that negates that argument. If KF would be grateful to Julian, she'd be even more grateful to Barry.

And yet in the same interview, DP also stated that Caitlin was angry at Barry for Flashpoint giving her powers. In 3x7, it was clearly, clearly, Caitlin using her ice powers to go after that man who was a proselyte of Alchemy. It was clearly Caitlin who kidnapped Julian to make him take away her powers. It was also clearly Caitlin who lashed out at Barry, even going so far as to throw his dead parents and friends in his face. And yet, so many claim that KF isn't Caitlin.  And yet, when Barry offered to let her kill him, Caitlin didn't.

So, putting the clues together from DP's own mouth and the show,  KF mostly likely didn't hate Barry for creating her and Caitlin did flirt with Barry to no avail. The most reasonable conclusion for KF's turning against Barry was for revenge because Barry didn't return Caitlin's flirtatious affections and  killing Iris was the way to make Barry suffer. And we did see KF flirt with Savitar to no avail.

It would also explain why Caitlin never truly befriended Iris for years even though they worked closely together and Iris was friendly to Caitlin. For example, Iris cooked for her and Ronnie, had Caitlin to her house for several Christmases, gave her information about the Burning Man, Iris showed concern about her KF dilemma in S3 despite the threat of Savitar, was Caitlin's MoH at the wedding to Ronnie, etc. All this, and Caitlin only thought of Iris as a "work friend". 

Edited July 17, 2018 by adora721

[adora721]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

At least she admitted the supposed flirtation was one sided and it was on Caitlin's end. Except for 1x12 and Hannibal episode, there's no way the writers were intentionally writing Caitlin flirting with Barry. Part of it had to be Danielle's acting choices.

Did you notice the delusional and condescending, "But Barry's been all about Iris lately." I was like, LATELY??????? And this was in S3, so she was still pandering to her SB fans and their delusions even then.

Edited July 17, 2018 by adora721

[Katsullivan]

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

Did you notice the delusional and condescending, "But Barry's been all about Iris lately." I was like, LATELY??????? And this was in S3, so she was still pandering to her SB fans and their delusions even then.

And this is the person that is going to direct an episode next season, and have control over how much or how little screentime and relevance Iris gets?

[Trini]

Danielle is not the only one with control over screentime (for anyone); assuming that she gets much say at all. She has to follow the script, and the director's cut is not the final cut. There are other decisionmakers involved too.

[Kate45]

6 minutes ago, Trini said:

Danielle is not the only one with control over screentime (for anyone); assuming that she gets much say at all. She has to follow the script, and the director's cut is not the final cut. There are other decisionmakers involved too.

Basically, this. The main thing is the script for her episode. 

[BeautifulFlower]

On 6/21/2018 at 1:19 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

I seen someone say this: How can people expect the writers to treat Caitlin better if her fans don't? When I look at Caitlin fans, I get three categories.

1. You have the ones who only care about her being with Barry.

2. You have the few one who actually care about her

3. You have the ones who only like her because they don't like Iris. These ones like to try to "advocate" for Caitlin, but can't seem to do that without bashing Iris.

I agree with you on the buzz part. I don't think she brings much buzz. I've been wondering this. Is it me or did the promotion team tried to paint 4x05 as Iris centric as a way to get people to watch a Caitlin centric episode?

I'm reading my old comments, and it reminded me of something. 

 4x21 is the perfect example to describe Caitlin's "fans". This episode had Caitlin with more screen time than Iris. You think her fans would be satisfied with that and talk about that. Nope, Iris was all on their mind. Seriously, they literally can't seem to keep Iris out their mouths.

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I'm reading my old comments, and it reminded me of something. 

 4x21 is the perfect example to describe Caitlin's "fans". This episode had Caitlin with more screen time than Iris. You think her fans would be satisfied with that and talk about that. Nope, Iris was all on their mind. Seriously, they literally can't seem to keep Iris out their mouths.

This is true. I think this was also the episode with Barry and Iris in bed and with her journalism storyline? They were very upset about them being in bed since a number of them were convinced that Barry and Iris don’t have sex ?. Also, I think it started to help them see that Iris getting into journalism didn’t mean she would be leaving SL. 

I also seem to remember a number of people only talking about Harry and Iris, and not remembering that Caitlin had a really big part in this episode. 

[BeautifulFlower]

4 hours ago, Kate45 said:

This is true. I think this was also the episode with Barry and Iris in bed and with her journalism storyline? They were very upset about them being in bed since a number of them were convinced that Barry and Iris don’t have sex ?. Also, I think it started to help them see that Iris getting into journalism didn’t mean she would be leaving SL. 

I also seem to remember a number of people only talking about Harry and Iris, and not remembering that Caitlin had a really big part in this episode. 

Lol. They're the ones who kept claiming Iris was sidelining Caitlin, yet don't even talk about Caitlin after watching a Caitlin centric episode. It's ridiculous, and they're making themselves so obvious.

[phoenics]

On 7/17/2018 at 5:58 PM, adora721 said:

DP admits that Caitlin flirted with Barry in S1 starting at minute 17: https://youtu.be/NEaZMIMnxyo

You know what?  Thank GOD for Grant Gustin fighting NOT to have that crackship and moving forward with their endgame of Westallen instead.

[adora721]

I'm not sure if I should put these in the media section, but the post pertains solely to Caitlin Snow. Been reading a few online magazine reviews of "Nora" and was curious about  the media perspective on Caitlin's current story. I really liked the character in S1 and S2, but fell out of like once S3 came around. I hope S5 can really redeem her, but it seems some in the media also have issues, some milder than mine, with the character:

IGN: "Unfortunately, there are plenty of other reminders that the series has chronic difficulties in juggling its ensemble cast. For one thing, it's clear that the Killer Frost storyline will be soldiering on in the same direction this year, which is most definitely not a good thing. The series has really struggled to push Caitlin forward following her fall from grace in Season 3, which thus far has involved pulling a complete 180 and transforming Killer Frost into Caitlin's disembodied BFF. Dragging Ralph into that story doesn't seem like the best move for either character. "

Den of Geek:  "I’m not thrilled that the series is going to continue on with the “Caitlin wishes Killer Frost will come back” thing, but I can’t really fault this episode for it. And hey, new season/clean slate, right?"

The Young Folks: "I am currently indifferent to Caitlin’s attachment to Killer Frost and the sudden emergence of a new origin story, but I look forward to seeing what the show has in store for the now undead Thomas Snow and how that plays into everything."

Fangirlish: "Killer Frost has been a bit of a mess the last couple of seasons, as the show has waffled on what they want her to be. There was no explanation for why she was initially evil. No real explanation for why she wanted to be good. She spent a year trying to get rid of Frost – knowingly working for a human trafficker to do so. After all that, there was little explanation for why she decided she wanted Frost back. (Sorry. Post-It Note messages doesn’t cut it, given the level of her fear. Also, without cause for Frost’s change of heart, it’s hard to know why anyone would put stock into the idea it wouldn’t suddenly change again.)

At the end of last season, I had the impression they were gearing up to do a soft reboot of Frost’s character. With the revelation that her abilities predated the particle accelerator explosion, it’s clear that they are moving forward with the reboot. I have hope that this will be a benefit to the character. I also hope this is the last reboot they do with her character. It’s past time for the writers to decide what they want Frost to be and commit to it."

Spoiler TV: "While Caitlin was pretty quiet, I am hopeful that her Killer Frost arc is fully and interestingly fleshed out. "

[Katsullivan]

On 12/10/2018 at 9:02 PM, adora721 said:

Fangirlish: Killer Frost has been a bit of a mess the last couple of seasons, as the show has waffled on what they want her to be. There was no explanation for why she was initially evil. No real explanation for why she wanted to be good.

This was my favorite.

I love that the media are starting to see and call out the white feminist bullshit writing for Caitlin where she will act as a villain and traitor, but never actually be responsible for any of her actions.

[adora721]

On 10/12/2018 at 6:02 PM, adora721 said:

It’s past time for the writers to decide what they want Frost to be and commit to it.

 

On 10/12/2018 at 6:02 PM, adora721 said:

Also, without cause for Frost’s change of heart, it’s hard to know why anyone would put stock into the idea it wouldn’t suddenly change again.

These two statements resonated with me most.

What continues to baffle me is that they wrote Caitlin and Killer Frost to do all these evil and selfish acts, which tarnishes them both deeply. But they won't write her a real redemption arc - no apologies to the people she hurt, no consequences for her actions, no remorse for working with the slave trafficker, no asking Cecile or Iris (or Barry or Cisco) about how they feel about her wanting Killer Frost to come back. The lack of such basic considerations continue to tarnish her character even more. The things she did were criminal and heinous, but they are swept under the rug as if they were nothing special.

Barry reaped what he sowed when he messed with timeline and almost lost Cisco, Iris, Joe, and poor Wally was traumatized and paralyzed.  It's like it's in the contract that Caitlin must never reap what she sows.

[Katsullivan]

11 minutes ago, adora721 said:

What continues to baffle me is that they wrote Caitlin and Killer Frost to do all these evil and selfish acts, which tarnishes them both deeply. But they won't write her a real redemption arc - no apologies to the people she hurt, no consequences for her actions, no remorse for working with the slave trafficker, no asking Cecile or Iris (or Barry or Cisco) about how they feel about her wanting Killer Frost to come back. The lack of such basic considerations continue to tarnish her character even more. The things she did were criminal and heinous, but they are swept under the rug as if they were nothing special.

Paradoxically, as much as the writers love writing her, it becomes hard to invest in anything to do with Caitlin because there are no consequences for her actions. We saw the fallout of Barry's decision with Flashpoint ripple throughout season 3 but Caitlin murders HR and there's zero reaction to this. The writers might be protecting her, but what they're doing ultimately is rendering her pointless. If nothing she does leaves any impact --- then nothing she does matters. Which begs the question - besides catering to the white female demography- what exactly is the point of Caitlin Snow?

[adora721]

When I compare Cait's story to Mick Rory or even Leonard Snart, I can't really understand her motivations for going evil or for changing to the good.  I don't like Leonard or Mick, but I can understand their motivations and reasons for changing from bad to good and bad again (Leo). 

I wish they'd put Cait into therapy throughout the season; at least she'd be dealing with what seems like a form of insanity.

Edited October 15, 2018 by adora721

[Katsullivan]

16 hours ago, adora721 said:

When I compare Cait's story to Mick Rory or even Leonard Snart, I can't really understand her motivations for going evil or for changing to the good.  I don't like Leonard or Mick, but I can understand their motivations and reasons for changing from bad to good and bad again (Leo). 

 

This.

16 hours ago, adora721 said:

I wish they'd put Cait into therapy throughout the season; at least she'd be dealing with what seems like a form of insanity.

That ship has sailed, imo and I'm glad. The last thing people with real mental illness need is to have this show reinforce the idea that mental illness => violence.

[adora721]

11 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

That ship has sailed, imo and I'm glad. The last thing people with real mental illness need is to have this show reinforce the idea that mental illness => violence.

I hadn't thought about the possibility of the writers botching a mental illness story line or sending the message that mental illness always leads to violence. I still believe they missed out on an opportunity to treat Cait like they did Frankie, as someone with deep trauma issues that needs therapy.

The writers are sending the message to the audience, particularly the young children who watch, that friendship means never having to say you're sorry for violent acts and there are no consequences for bad decisions. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by adora721

[adora721]

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

They never had plans to make Caitlin Killer Frost. When fans learned about her character from the comics, they kept asking to see killer frost. We got that in season 2. That was supposed to be the only time we Killer Frost. However, fans and also Danielle, wanted E-1 caitlin to be Killer Frost. Since E-1 becoming Killer Frost, that means she had to betray the team. Oh, they couldn't have that. Now we're stuck with this messy plot.

I'm not sure your assertion is in agreement with the facts.

1. They cast Danielle as E1 "Caitlin Snow" before casting Iris West and put Caitlin (along with Cisco) in season 2 of "Arrow".  If there was no intention of making her Killer Frost, why not cast her as a new, original character with a new name as they did with Tina McGee in the 90's Flash TV show? Surely, they knew the "Caitlin Snow" name would make comic fans expect a Killer Frost story arc.
2. They also cast E1 Ronnie Raymond (Firestorm), a character with whom Killer Frost has been strongly linked to either as an antagonist or a romantic interest in the comics. Why do so if there's no intention of having Killer Frost?
3. In season 1, they purposely had Caitlin say that she and Ronnie were like, "fire and ice". This is more than just an allusion to her cold, scientific nature. 
4. In the early days of interviews and articles, the topic of Killer Frost came up frequently and even AJK and DP talked about it.

Interestingly enough, here's an excerpt about powers:

"We saw a glimpse of Caitlin’s future as Killer Frost. How does she feel about not having any powers, at this point?

KREISBERG: She’s got powers. She’s smart.

DANIELLE PANABAKER: She also has the power of often being the only female voice in the room, to boss them around a little bit."

The excerpt seems to imply that AJK wasn't looking at KF, but it contradicts other facts. 

Interesting that DP talks about bossing the boys around and being the only female; things that Iris takes tons of heat for daily.

Edited November 5, 2018 by adora721

[adora721]

On 7/12/2018 at 12:01 PM, Katsullivan said:

I would love for them to write Caitlin dying to save Iris just to see how batshit crazy that will make certain fans. 

Forget how crazy it would drive certain fans; imagine DP having to act that scene with Candice.  Yowza!

[adora721]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

I feel like the show had 2 chances to make Cait/KF work.  The first was when Ronnie was still alive - but they killed him.  They could've rectified that by bringing him back from the dead but then they killed off Stein.  So that way was out.

 

 

I also think they could have made a reverse version of the Firestorm story by having Killer Frost actually physically split from Caitlin Snow after Flashpoint or at the end of S3. Meaning, KF would be a separate body, mind, motivations, actions, etc. split off from Caitlin. Kinda like what happened with Regina on "Once Upon a Time."  DP would play both parts, but they could have kept Caitlin "innocent" and KF would do whatever evil, dastardly thing she wanted to do. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by adora721

[phoenics]

28 minutes ago, adora721 said:

 

I also think they could have made a reverse version of the Firestorm story by having Killer Frost actually physically split from Caitlin Snow after Flashpoint or at the end of S3. Meaning, KF would be a separate body, mind, motivations, actions, etc. split off from Caitlin. Kinda like what happened with Regina on "Once Upon a Time."  DP would play both parts, but they could have kept Caitlin "innocent" and KF would do whatever evil, dastardly thing she wanted to do. 

 

Hmmm maybe... but that's exacerbating the problem with Caitlin - who really serves zero narrative purpose without KF.  If you separate them - she's even more superfluous than she is right now.  Caitlin/KF as the same person was the only saving grace Caitlin had from an interest standpoint, outside of being a part of a crackship.

Edited November 6, 2018 by phoenics

[adora721]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

Hmmm maybe... but that's exacerbating the problem with Caitlin - who really serves zero narrative purpose without KF. 

Yes and no. Caitlin would have an ongoing nemesis who is a reflection of her darkest self. That could be made interesting. Her quest could be to turn KF good or to de-power her. After all, KF would have Cait's memories and could utilize the weaknesses of Team Flash to attack them or work with the Flash's enemies. There are ways to make that dynamic interesting for Cait and the audience. Plus, DP does her best "acting" as Killer Frost.

In addition, it may be that 

Spoiler

her father, Thomas, will be a villain or nemesis this season who may tempt Cait to betray the team yet again. If Thomas has cold powers, it's like a male Killer Frost. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by adora721

[phoenics]

From the episode thread:  

 

 

Was this in Girl's night?

[adora721]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

From the episode thread:  

 

 

Was this in Girl's night?

Yes; it was in 4x5, "Girl's Night Out", that Killer Frost threatened to freeze Iris' arm off. Go to minute 1:47 of video: 

Edited November 8, 2018 by adora721

[phoenics]

On 11/7/2018 at 7:14 PM, adora721 said:

Yes; it was in 4x5, "Girl's Night Out", that Killer Frost threatened to freeze Iris' arm off. Go to minute 1:47 of video: 

 

After watching that, my comments in the other thread ring true.  They continually try to play both ends against the middle.  Why have KF spurn Iris and bring her relationship with Barry into it?  Her words were, "If you want to have that hand for Barry to put a ring on it, I suggest you move it."  WHY THAT?  Seriously - why?  That dialogue, and her comments to Barry about how he didn't care about Flashpoint because "He had Iris" and then other snippy, snide comments she's made to them as KF, and even her murderous actions toward Iris that make no sense as coming from KF since KF is supposedly a separate entity - one where Caitlin doesn't remember what happened when she was KF.  So that stands to reason that KF wouldn't remember Cait's life either.

So WHY have KF making all of these snide comments about Iris that  have their basis rooted in Iris' relationship with Barry?  Why have KF team up with Savitar if KF is a separate entity?  What reason would KF have for that?  She's just evil?  No.  That's not it.

It's because the writers are using KF to be mean/murderous to Iris and make snide comments to Iris and Barry with a lot of shade directed at them for being together.  But since KF and Caitlin aren't the same person apparently and neither remembers the others' life, then it makes NO sense to have KF say these things.

Unless it's just bait for the Iris haters and Cait fans who want SB.  It's a way for the writers to have their cake and eat it too.  KF says all the stuff Cait's fans WISH she would say to Iris/Barry (because that's what THEY want to say), but since the writers know Cait has NO BASIS to say any of those things and they don't want Cait to pay for what she says or does, they make KF do it and then claim that Cait has no power over KF.

Except they've forgotten that they HAVE made Cait have control of herself as KF - so this all falls apart with all but the most virulent Iris haters and Cait supporters.