S04.E10: Winner

[100Proof]

27 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I forgave the magnet caper in BB because it was funny. I'll forgive a lot for a laugh.

Speaking of which. The damn funniest scene in BB I laughed my head off was towards the end. The bottom glass frame of the front door to Saul's establishment had been smashed out and Walter White was in Saul's office for one thing or the other and had to get out of there in a hurry. He gets to the front door and keeps madly yanking on it, trying to get it open but its locked. After a bit of frenzy, he sorta drops his shoulders, gets this look on his face, then bends down and crawls on hands and knees out the open bottom panel. I split my sides laughing.

Edited October 9, 2018 by 100Proof

[scenario]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure she really wants to tame him, at least not deep down. She seems fascinated with the con artist in him.  I think she has the same gene (no pun intended) that he has, but has been avoiding giving into it better, up until recently.  

I read an article on the magnet caper which interviewed degaussing experts.  The conclusion was generally that it probably wouldn't have worked but that the concept was not totally ridiculous.  One called it "good science fiction".   

As a science fiction fan, I love science fiction but not when its put in a regular show. But also with good science fiction, a little unrealistic science is fine if it moves the plot along and there's not too much of it. I'm fine with one or two, you've got to be kidding moments a season. 

[100Proof]

18 minutes ago, Tara Ariano said:

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

Better Call Saul Gives Season 4's Closing Argument

Jimmy performs sincerity in support of his bar reinstatement appeal while Mike runs a Mann hunt in our EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of Better Call Saul's Season 4 finale, 'Winner.'

Ah, the article writer agrees with my stance that Jimmy was proud of Chuck and gladly stood aside and let Chuck finish the song.  ;)

[Tikichick]

17 minutes ago, 100Proof said:

They're all kinda average ugly, especially the guys. Well, Howard's kinda dapper.  Mike looks like he was in a fire (was he??)

Seriously...female was pointed out because I am male and being hetero male it is in the realm and also obeying laws of this universe to make a comment like that strictly from my own pov and on a whim simply as part of making conversation. You, and anyone else, are perfectly fine to make all the comments you want about the physical attractiveness of the men in the series and that would be perfectly ok.... by me at least.  ;-D

Obeying the same laws of the universe where men will stick it anywhere?

I fail to see where there's such a yawning gap in this discussion where the great need to "make conversation" called for any of the comments you felt were necessary about Kim's looks or lack of sexuality.  

It's damned refreshing to get a female character onscreen who isn't beholden to address anyone's ideas about how sexual she should or shouldn't be, rather that she should simply exist as she wishes -- something afforded to male characters without question because they gots more important things to do.  Kim and Jimmy are in a relationship.  Nobody's questioned Jimmy not being a sexual being.  Sauce for the goose . . .

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, 100Proof said:

Ah, the article writer agrees with my stance that Jimmy was proud of Chuck and gladly stood aside and let Chuck finish the song.  ;)

That's what's great about the writing. At that time, Jimmy admired and looked up to Chuck. He was proud of Chuck. But if he looked at the same thing now, he'd say that Chuck was stealing his limelight. It has two meanings depending on if you look at it while it was happening vs looking back at it a few years later. 

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, 100Proof said:

Speaking of which. The damn funniest scene in BB I laughed my head off was towards the end. The bottom glass frame of the front door to Saul's establishment had been smashed out and Walter White was in Saul's office or one thing or the other and had to get out of there in a hurry. He gets to the front door and keeps madly yanking on it, trying to get it open but its locked. After a bit of frenzy, he sorta drops his shoulders, gets this look on his face, the bends down and crawls out the open bottom panel. I split my sides laughing.

That stuff is just genius. Remember Howard's mincing walk when he snuck into Chuck's backyard, to get in the backdoor unseen? Hilarious, and I always wondered how much of that came from the actor, or the director.

As far as laugh out loud funny, the whole squat cobbler caper, especially Jimmy's explanation to the credulous cops, might be the funniest thing I've ever seen on t.v.. I was alone in my living room, laughing out loud for 2 minutes.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

What deep hidden grieve is Jimmy hiding? Maybe there is no such thing. Actually, I find it more plausible that he'd HATE Chuck even in death. When he grieves, it would make more sense to grieve for the relationship that could have been, not what was. 

Like Howard, Jimmy doesn't and shouldn't be made to feel like he must mourn Chuck. He was a shitty brother to Jimmy and it took a long time for Jimmy to accept that fact.

If Jimmy were a better man, a stronger man, he'd have done opposite direct and prove to everyone, but especially Chuck in death, that he is more than Chuck's idea of who is. As it is, he is proving Chuck was 100% correct about his assessment of him. 

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Obeying the same laws of the universe where men will stick it anywhere?

I fail to see where there's such a yawning gap in this discussion where the great need to "make conversation" called for any of the comments you felt were necessary about Kim's looks or lack of sexuality.  

It's damned refreshing to get a female character onscreen who isn't beholden to address anyone's ideas about how sexual she should or shouldn't be, rather that she should simply exist as she wishes -- something afforded to male characters without question because they gots more important things to do.  Kim and Jimmy are in a relationship.  Nobody's questioned Jimmy not being a sexual being.  Sauce for the goose . . .

Actually people have questioned Jimmy's worthiness to be with Kim based upon his looks.  People have also discussed Howard's success being largely due to his looks.  I don't see any double standard.   

3 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

What deep hidden grieve is Jimmy hiding? Maybe there is no such thing. Actually, I find it more plausible that he'd HATE Chuck even in death. When he grieves, it would make more sense to grieve for the relationship that could have been, not what was. 

Like Howard, Jimmy doesn't and shouldn't be made to feel like he must mourn Chuck. He was a shitty brother to Jimmy and it took a long time for Jimmy to accept that fact.

If Jimmy were a better man, a stronger man, he'd have done opposite direct and prove to everyone, but especially Chuck in death, that he is more than Chuck's idea of who is. As it is, he is proving Chuck was 100% correct about his assessment of him. 

I think Chuck was mostly a good brother to Jimmy.  He was only a really bad brother in response to Jimmy being a horrible brother by tampering with his Mesa Verde documents, to steal the client for Kim, and humiliating him in the process.  Then the two of them kept escalating the situation and were equally at fault.  

He should have been more honest about not wanting Jimmy as a lawyer at HHM, but given how Jimmy reacted when he finally found out, I'm not sure Jimmy would have reacted any better to a more honest approach from Chuck.  

Edited October 9, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

What deep hidden grieve is Jimmy hiding? Maybe there is no such thing. Actually, I find it more plausible that he'd HATE Chuck even in death. When he grieves, it would make more sense to grieve for the relationship that could have been, not what was. 

Like Howard, Jimmy doesn't and shouldn't be made to feel like he must mourn Chuck. He was a shitty brother to Jimmy and it took a long time for Jimmy to accept that fact.

If Jimmy were a better man, a stronger man, he'd have done opposite direct and prove to everyone, but especially Chuck in death, that he is more than Chuck's idea of who is. As it is, he is proving Chuck was 100% correct about his assessment of him. 

It would take him years, decades to get people to look up to him the way they looked up to Chuck. Jimmy always takes the easy way out. He would have been fine to be the second banana if Chuck would have respected him for trying. I could see Jimmy setting up a practice with Chuck watching him closely and Jimmy playing it straight for the most part. Keeping his scams to things like the commercial. He'd let HHM use him to do the dirty work as long as Chuck respected him for what he was.  

Once Chuck made it clear that he didn't give a damn about Jimmy, Jimmy had three choices. He could spent decades trying to outchuck Chuck and probably failing. Or he could try to tear Chucks legacy down and be hated for it. He chose to say the hell with it and go for the cash grab. 

[Bryce Lynch]

14 minutes ago, Bannon said:

That stuff is just genius. Remember Howard's mincing walk when he snuck into Chuck's backyard, to get in the backdoor unseen? Hilarious, and I always wondered how much of that came from the actor, or the director.

As far as laugh out loud funny, the whole squat cobbler caper, especially Jimmy's explanation to the credulous cops, might be the funniest thing I've ever seen on t.v.. I was alone in my living room, laughing out loud for 2 minutes.

They had a "What BCS themed tattoo would you get?" question on reddit.  While I would never actually get a tattoo, my first reaction was "Squat Cobbler".  

Edited October 9, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[scenario]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Actually people have questioned Jimmy's worthiness to be with Kim based upon his looks.  People have also discussed Howard's success being largely due to his looks.  I don't see any double standard.   

I think Chuck was mostly a good brother to Jimmy.  He was only a really bad brother in response to Jimmy being a horrible brother by tampering with his Mesa Verde documents, to steal the client for Kim, and humiliating him in the process.  Then the two of them kept escalating the situation and were equally at fault.  

He should have been more honest about not wanting Jimmy as a lawyer at HHM, but given how Jimmy reacted when he finally found out, I'm not sure Jimmy would have reacted any better to a more honest approach from Chuck.  

Chuck refusing to allow his brother to join HHM and setting someone else to take the blame was being a horrible brother. At the same time he was doing it, he was letting Jimmy serve him hands and foot. He used Jimmy every chance he could while he secretly hated him. Jimmy could have been a shady but mostly honest lawyer under Chucks thumb if he had played it right and Jimmy would have been happy. By taking the path he took, Chuck brought out the worst in Jimmy. 

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, scenario said:

Chuck refusing to allow his brother to join HHM and setting someone else to take the blame was being a horrible brother. At the same time he was doing it, he was letting Jimmy serve him hands and foot. He used Jimmy every chance he could while he secretly hated him. Jimmy could have been a shady but mostly honest lawyer under Chucks thumb if he had played it right and Jimmy would have been happy. By taking the path he took, Chuck brought out the worst in Jimmy. 

Jimmy would NEVER be able to play it straight as a lawyer, and Chuck should not have wasted the valuable time he owed to his firm and to his clients trying to babysit his con-artist little brother.  

Jimmy doesn't do well under thumbs, light or heavy.  He was given largely free reign at D&M and was unhappy and went rogue with the ad.  Then, when he was under close scrutiny through Erin, he could't stand it and forced them to fire him.    

The decision not to hire Jimmy as a lawyer was 100% correct and hiring him would have been foolish and irresponsible.  

Having Howard take the blame was wrong.  But, I think Chuck knew it would devastate Jimmy to know the truth, and he didn't want to ruin their relationship. Still not the right decision, but understandable, IMO.

Jimmy always manages to bring out the worst in Jimmy. He was about to go to prison as sex offender when Chuck rescued, and gave him tough love and a job.  

[Eulipian 5k]

2 hours ago, attica said:

A note of appreciation for a wee technical detail. In the Werner gets shot scene, the camera is at a distance, so we see the muzzle flash an instant before we hear the sound effect of its firing. Because light travels faster than sound. Good physics, there, show!

There was a Twilight Zone/Outer Limits where the plot centered on a Civil War sniper whose bullet was slower than the speed of sound and whether the target would move before the bullet got there. Yo science!

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

For some strange reason I have the urge to say that he got shot in the Schnitzel.  Too bad his name wasn't Weiner instead of Werner.

I was hoping Werner would have lived and that Mike would have found a way to help him escape.  I do wonder if Gus is going to want to see Werner's body to confirm that he is dead.

Just his schnitzel. :)

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jimmy would NEVER be able to play it straight as a lawyer, and Chuck should not have wasted the valuable time he owed to his firm and to his clients trying to babysit his con-artist little brother.  

Jimmy doesn't do well under thumbs, light or heavy.  He was given largely free reign at D&M and was unhappy and went rogue with the ad.  Then, when he was under close scrutiny through Erin, he could't stand it and forced them to fire him.    

The decision not to hire Jimmy as a lawyer was 100% correct and hiring him would have been foolish and irresponsible.  

Having Howard take the blame was wrong.  But, I think Chuck knew it would devastate Jimmy to know the truth, and he didn't want to ruin their relationship. Still not the right decision, but understandable, IMO.

Jimmy always manages to bring out the worst in Jimmy. He was about to go to prison as sex offender when Chuck rescued, and gave him tough love and a job.  

Again, a guy who played it straight for 7 years in a mail room may have played it straight as a lawyer, given the right conditions. Once again, there is no empirical basis for this overly deterministic view of human behavior. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

 I think most of the other characters are pretty average looking, at best.

Isn't that like real life, though? We're all "pretty average looking." It's kind of refreshing, given that in TV shows everyone is usually absurdly attractive. 

[PeterPirate]

11 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

What deep hidden grieve is Jimmy hiding? Maybe there is no such thing. Actually, I find it more plausible that he'd HATE Chuck even in death. When he grieves, it would make more sense to grieve for the relationship that could have been, not what was. 

Like Howard, Jimmy doesn't and shouldn't be made to feel like he must mourn Chuck. He was a shitty brother to Jimmy and it took a long time for Jimmy to accept that fact.

If Jimmy were a better man, a stronger man, he'd have done opposite direct and prove to everyone, but especially Chuck in death, that he is more than Chuck's idea of who is. As it is, he is proving Chuck was 100% correct about his assessment of him. 

 

Just now, icemiser69 said:

Maybe he doesn't give a shit and feels he has no issues to resolve? 

With or without Chuck as his older brother, it could just be that Jimmy was destined to be "The Bad Seed".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Seed_(1956_film)

I agree with both of these.  That spiel Jimmy gave to the unfortunate Ms. Esposito was just plain toxic.  No amount of past condemnation from Chuck could justify it.  It came from something inherently wrong with Jimmy.  

 

29 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I read an article on the magnet caper which interviewed degaussing experts.  The conclusion was generally that it probably wouldn't have worked but that the concept was not totally ridiculous.  One called it "good science fiction".   

 

I guess "good science fiction" has its basis in reality.  A few months ago I did some calculations and found, to my surprise, that the magnetic field generated by a disconnected cell phone battery was pretty close to the field from an "Exit" sign about 40 feet away.  

There was also Seven Of Nine's special dermal regeneration uniform.  That was some pretty good science fiction too.  

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by PeterPirate

[ShadowFacts]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jimmy always manages to bring out the worst in Jimmy. He was about to go to prison as sex offender when Chuck rescued, and gave him tough love and a job.  

Yes.  He was Slippin' Jimmy for a long time, independent of Chuck's even living in the same state.

1 minute ago, PeterPirate said:

I agree with both of these.  That spiel Jimmy gave to the unfortunate Ms. Esposito was just plain toxic.  No amount of past condemnation from Chuck could justify it.  It came from something inherently wrong with Jimmy.  

He's done plenty of crappy things to people who didn't deserve it.  I think he took a wrong turn as a young kid, observing his father be too soft.  He decided that was something to deride and be the opposite of.  He was shown to be multi-dimensional in caring about his friend (Marco?) and sometimes the elders and Chuck in his illness.  But there is something pretty disordered with Jimmy. 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Again, a guy who played it straight for 7 years in a mail room may have played it straight as a lawyer, given the right conditions. Once again, there is no empirical basis for this overly deterministic view of human behavior. 

I keep going back to a) Jimmy's behavior, before and after his mail room days (and whose to say he wasn't doing some cons during those days?) b) Chuck's pinpoint knowledge of Jimmy.  He sniffed out every scam he ran, down to the last detail.  I don't think he ever falsely accused him, either.  So, it's not as though he just blamed everything on Jimmy and guessed right once in a while.

A guy who sinks to the depths that Saul Goodman sinks to, was not going to be any different if his brother gave him a job he didn't deserve and tried, in vain, to keep him under control.   No matter how well you train him, a chimp with a machine gun is eventually going to hurt people. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, scenario said:

He would probably fall down under the counter where the thicker armor is and push the panic button which calls the police. Any place that handles large sums of cash has some built in security. 

Which is why Lalo chose to "get the drop on him."

[ShadowFacts]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I keep going back to a) Jimmy's behavior, before and after his mail room days (and whose to say he wasn't doing some cons during those days?) b) Chuck's pinpoint knowledge of Jimmy.  He sniffed out every scam he ran, down to the last detail.  I don't think he ever falsely accused him, either.  So, it's not as though he just blamed everything on Jimmy and guessed right once in a while.

A guy who sinks to the depths that Saul Goodman sinks to, was not going to be any different if his brother gave him a job he didn't deserve and tried, in vain, to keep him under control.   No matter how well you train him, a chimp with a machine gun is eventually going to hurt people. 

We can now see that Chuck held out some hope for Jimmy, vouching for him and celebrating with him, nurturing him by taking him home safely.  It wasn't until they started in with the Mesa Verde tug of war that things went irreversibly ugly.  By the end of the episode I was thinking to myself, Chuck was right about every penny he said Jimmy stole from the store.  And yet he didn't give up on Jimmy for many years.  I see Chuck in a different light now.  That's really good writing. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

So that's where the expression "gum up the works" comes from. ?

Quote

 The Space Marines in Aliens had the same problem.   

Private Hudson: Nine meters. Seven. Six.

Ripley: That can't be; that's inside the room.

Oh hey, it's Lalo!

[PeterPirate]

Just now, ShadowFacts said:

Yes.  He was Slippin' Jimmy for a long time, independent of Chuck's even living in the same state.

He's done plenty of crappy things to people who didn't deserve it.  I think he took a wrong turn as a young kid, observing his father be too soft.  He decided that was something to deride and be the opposite of.  He was shown to be multi-dimensional in caring about his friend (Marco?) and sometimes the elders and Chuck in his illness.  But there is something pretty disordered with Jimmy. 

I agree.  While life is never, never deterministic, one always has to play the odds.  Even if given a place at HHM, I wouldn't bet on a positive outcome for Jimmy unless given odds of around 50-1.

Still, I can't get over the fact that the title of the episode was "Winner".  Jimmy did win out in the end, at least for now.  So who knows, maybe Gene will get back into law and become quite successful.  Maybe he'll make it all the way onto the Supreme Court.

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jimmy would NEVER be able to play it straight as a lawyer, and Chuck should not have wasted the valuable time he owed to his firm and to his clients trying to babysit his con-artist little brother.  

Jimmy doesn't do well under thumbs, light or heavy.  He was given largely free reign at D&M and was unhappy and went rogue with the ad.  Then, when he was under close scrutiny through Erin, he could't stand it and forced them to fire him.    

The decision not to hire Jimmy as a lawyer was 100% correct and hiring him would have been foolish and irresponsible.  

Having Howard take the blame was wrong.  But, I think Chuck knew it would devastate Jimmy to know the truth, and he didn't want to ruin their relationship. Still not the right decision, but understandable, IMO.

Jimmy always manages to bring out the worst in Jimmy. He was about to go to prison as sex offender when Chuck rescued, and gave him tough love and a job.  

I totally agree that Chuck was right not to hire him at HHM. Jimmy was totally out of place in a big law firm. I just think that if Chuck had helped set Jimmy up in his own practice doing elder law or something and thrown him a case once in a while, he'd have played it mostly straight. He'd have had his scams once in a while but they would be minor ones. Giving Jimmy a part time clerk to do the boring paperwork, who also reported to Chuck would be all he needed to do. A stern look from Chuck would have set the Jimmy from early season one back on track. 

Chuck is a much a con artist as Jimmy is. Put Jimmy in doc review for a month. Everyone starts at the bottom. Then have a quiet brother to brother talk. "Jimmy, your too much like me. You've got to be the boss. You're better off in your own firm than being just a wheel in a cog." Then offer to set Jimmy up in his own office. 

Sometimes even really honest firms need to do something that is legal but distasteful that would look bad for the firm, like defending the scumbag brother of a very important client. They don't want to do it but they they also don't want to upset a very big client. Throw the case at Jimmy. If he uses some questionable tactics and gets the brother free, HHM's hands are clean and the client is happy. 

There's a big difference between a toned down slippin' Jimmy and Saul. I think that with the right encouragement from Chuck, Jimmy could have had a nice Elder Law practice and kept the slippin' Jimmy stuff to a minimum.  It could go two ways, Jimmy stays mostly on the straight and narrow and Chuck takes credit with his friends for straightening out his ner do well brother. Or Jimmy goes bad and Chuck washes his hands of him and he looks like the good brother who did everything he could and Jimmy just threw it all away.

The way Chuck played it was bound to blow up in his face. Setting him up in his own practice had a lot less downside to it than hiring him or getting another firm to hire him.

[Pike Ludwell]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Chuck always cared about Jimmy.  But, he was also a bit embarrassed by him (see the dinner with Rebecca) and was not thrilled with the idea of him being a lawyer and dead set against him being a lawyer at HHM.   He was totally right about Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree being like a chimp with a machine gun.  He knew Jimmy extremely well.  He could always figure out what he was up to, whether it was the billboard rescue scam, tricking Chuck into doing his wills for him, the Mesa Verde document fraud, bribing the copy shop guy, or how to trick Jimmy into confessing and later breaking in to destroy the cassette tape.  The only thing he got wrong was thinking Jimmy would sneak in, under cover of darkness, rather than breaking down the door and confronting him.  

Chuck wasn't just tolerating Jimmy in the sequence - he seemed to truly like him and was very caring - unlike the flashback this season to the mailroom where Chuck showed flashes of annoyance, and the Rebecca scene as well which you mention. Much of Chuck's expressions to Jimmy last season seemed like there was never a true liking of Jimmy ("I never gave much thought about you", etc.) - at best just a reluctant tolerance. So a scene showing genuine caring for him seemed strange.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Pat Hoolihan

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

We can now see that Chuck held out some hope for Jimmy, vouching for him and celebrating with him, nurturing him by taking him home safely.  It wasn't until they started in with the Mesa Verde tug of war that things went irreversibly ugly.  By the end of the episode I was thinking to myself, Chuck was right about every penny he said Jimmy stole from the store.  And yet he didn't give up on Jimmy for many years.  I see Chuck in a different light now.  That's really good writing. 

I have always been more friendly towards Chuck than most, and this season has helped confirm my view. 

Regarding the money from the store, I still think Jimmy probably took about 50% and the grifters who targeted his gullible Dad took about 49% and the other 1% was all the Little Debbies that Mrs. McGill gave to Marco. :)

Edited October 9, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[axlmadonna]

14 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

"God damn it."

I am unable to convey in words the type, nor depth, of sadness which overtook me while watching this ep.  No entertainment has ever taken me to this particular place.

My sentiments exactly.

[Bannon]

40 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I keep going back to a) Jimmy's behavior, before and after his mail room days (and whose to say he wasn't doing some cons during those days?) b) Chuck's pinpoint knowledge of Jimmy.  He sniffed out every scam he ran, down to the last detail.  I don't think he ever falsely accused him, either.  So, it's not as though he just blamed everything on Jimmy and guessed right once in a while.

A guy who sinks to the depths that Saul Goodman sinks to, was not going to be any different if his brother gave him a job he didn't deserve and tried, in vain, to keep him under control.   No matter how well you train him, a chimp with a machine gun is eventually going to hurt people. 

Again, what you propose is contrary to available evidence with regard to human behavior, and if we don't have evidence of Jimmy running cons while in the mail room, then we don't have evidence. People's behavior is not predetermined, and there are many examples of habitual rule breakers, worse than Jimmy, who decide to stop doing so. What evidence we have indicates that Jimmy, while in the mail room, laboring for delayed gratification, did not run cons. This is compelling evidence that with the right incentive structure in place, Jimmy will follow rules.

[Eulipian 5k]

I don't get the Chuck hate over his relations with a brother who is known as a "scumbag lawyer". We see Kim, and applaud, her finally seeing Slippin Saul, after 20 months. In season 1 we were told Chuck repeatedly,  I assume for years, "bailing" out Jimmy. He even brought him into his precious law firm  to keep him out of trouble. To repay him, Jimmy becomes even more of an embarrassment by taking up the Law as a profession, to impress a girl. To this day , last week, the law means nothing to Jimmy, and Chuck knew that.

Kim's tolerance won't last the  next few years with Saul, Chuck had the rest of his life to look forward to with Jimmy insulting (Chuck's) chosen profession.

[MisterBluxom]

Someone posted something up-thread regarding "The  Wire".  I have a tiny request about that show. But it's a little Off-Topic and so I will post it in the spoiler box below:

 

I've been looking for a thread where people can post the names of their favorite TV shows so that others can have a look at them. If anyone knows of such a thread on this forum (or any other forum), please could you send me a private message with a link to that thread? With the demise of this season of Better Call Saul, I'd really like to try and watch some new shows and I'd prefer to watch some shows that have been recommended by people in this forum. Thanks in Advance. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by MissBluxom

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I don't get the Chuck hate over his relations with a brother who is known as a "scumbag lawyer". We see Kim, and applaud, her finally seeing Slippin Saul, after 20 months. In season 1 we were told Chuck repeatedly,  I assume for years, "bailing" out Jimmy. He even brought him into his precious law firm  to keep him out of trouble. To repay him, Jimmy becomes even more of an embarrassment by taking up the Law as a profession, to impress a girl. To this day , last week, the law means nothing to Jimmy, and Chuck knew that.

Kim's tolerance won't last the  next few years with Saul, Chuck had the rest of his life to look forward to with Jimmy insulting (Chuck's) chosen profession.

Chuck should be the good guy. The problem that I see is that the Jimmy we see in season 1 is trying to go straight. Chuck knew his brother was a worthless human being. Chuck ended up pushing Jimmy into becoming Saul. 

[Bannon]

38 minutes ago, scenario said:

 

Sometimes even really honest firms need to do something that is legal but distasteful that would look bad for the firm, like defending the scumbag brother of a very important client. They don't want to do it but they they also don't want to upset a very big client. Throw the case at Jimmy. If he uses some questionable tactics and gets the brother free, HHM's hands are clean and the client is happy. 

 

 

Both HHM and D&M were really dumb in not recognizing Jimmy had a real talent for creating extremely effective, if cheesy, television ads for soliciting litigation, and he could have set up his own firm's name to appear in the commercial, thus protecting the brand image of HHM and D&M, while Jimmy funneled all the prospective Sandpiper clients to them. I mean, this is exactly what big litigation shops do. For the partners at D&M to get in a snit about an unapproved ad that ran one time, while ignoring the wave of phone calls it generated, instead of saying, "Hey, that's a really great ad, that provided terrific results. Let's just get the Jimmy McGill Law Firm brand on it, not D&M", was really stupid management.

[Bryce Lynch]

14 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I don't get the Chuck hate over his relations with a brother who is known as a "scumbag lawyer". We see Kim, and applaud, her finally seeing Slippin Saul, after 20 months. In season 1 we were told Chuck repeatedly,  I assume for years, "bailing" out Jimmy. He even brought him into his precious law firm  to keep him out of trouble. To repay him, Jimmy becomes even more of an embarrassment by taking up the Law as a profession, to impress a girl. To this day , last week, the law means nothing to Jimmy, and Chuck knew that.

Kim's tolerance won't last the  next few years with Saul, Chuck had the rest of his life to look forward to with Jimmy insulting (Chuck's) chosen profession.

Also, even Kim, who has great affection for Jimmy, convinced Hamlin to vouch for him, and lives with him, has to this point, realized that entering into a law partnership with Jimmy would be foolish and dangerous.  If your lover and best friend doesn't trust you enough to practice law in her firm, why should anyone?

[Bannon]

20 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I don't get the Chuck hate over his relations with a brother who is known as a "scumbag lawyer". We see Kim, and applaud, her finally seeing Slippin Saul, after 20 months. In season 1 we were told Chuck repeatedly,  I assume for years, "bailing" out Jimmy. He even brought him into his precious law firm  to keep him out of trouble. To repay him, Jimmy becomes even more of an embarrassment by taking up the Law as a profession, to impress a girl. To this day , last week, the law means nothing to Jimmy, and Chuck knew that.

Kim's tolerance won't last the  next few years with Saul, Chuck had the rest of his life to look forward to with Jimmy insulting (Chuck's) chosen profession.

When you lie to the scumbag lawyer, over a protracted period of time, as to who actually opposes the scumbag lawyer joining your law firm, then you are every bit as much a scumbag.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

When you lie to the scumbag lawyer, over a protracted period of time, as to who actually opposes the scumbag lawyer joining your law firm, then you are every bit as much a scumbag.

Sure, deceiving your scumbag brother, as to not hurt his feelings, is just as bad as the numerous felonies and ethical violations Jimmy has committed since Chuck vouched for him before the Bar.  Its even as bad as the stuff Saul will do later, like arrange prison shankings of witnesses, launder millions in drug money, participate in a scheme to poison a kid, etc. etc. etc.   

[axlmadonna]

8 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

Wasn't it interesting that in the last episode he tried to be sincere but was perceived as being insincere. But in this episode, he was trying to fool them and he succeeded in being perceived as sincere. But he likely destroyed  his relationship with Kim by doing so and that relationship was just infinitely more valuable than his relationship with those despicable (IMHO) people on the board. Why despicable? Because they had made up their minds to deny that young lady who was deserving but gave an opportunity to Jimmy who clearly not deserving.

I'm surprised that this was the moment that Kim realized he was beyond hope, rather than when he was floating the idea of SETTING A JUDGE'S OFFICE ON FIRE as a way to "be the hero". Fire is not a thing you can absolutely contain once it is set in motion, and it travels extremely quickly. There would have been a very good chance that someone was hurt and/or killed by that stunt, yet Kim just gave a slightly concerned look to him seriously suggesting it.

I'm still very confused by the notion that sincerity is required in order to be a lawyer in good standing. There were specific requirements made of Jimmy in order to be re-instated, and he met them all (as far as they know). He went to all of his probation meetings, got a legit job, and behaved like an upstanding citizen for a year. Where does the legal requirement that you be sincerely remorseful enter into it? If you repeat the behavior, you get disbarred. If not, then you continue your profession. Why is there such a subjective process for someone being reinstated?

The young lady in question had shoplifted. That is not a good decision, but it is a very minor indiscretion compared to what Jimmy did (and has done his whole life). He has been given many chances, even after his screw ups from before he became a lawyer (getting a non-lawyering job at HHM, getting that SWEET opportunity at D&M, which he just threw away in the most despicable way, hanging out his own legit shingle, etc.). Each time, he made staggeringly bad choices or simply threw away his opportunities. The girl he was speaking to did one dumb thing in her youth, and lost one potential scholarship. For that, he thinks she should just turn her back on all future legitimate opportunities and break bad? What a terrible way to advise her. Talk about projecting! The fact is, and I say this as someone who acquired a shoplifting misdemeanor on her record at the age of 19, while it does somewhat limit your opportunities, it by no means makes you an outcast in the professional world, especially after the passage of time without any further legal issues. She can absolutely have a bright future, she's no Jimmy.

Furthermore, I'm not sure that she was "deserving" of one of the scholarships, even if she hadn't had a blemish on her legal record. There were a lot more than three applicants, and they were all highly qualified. Jimmy even admitted that several had better grades than she did, among other factors. Jimmy just took exception to the one lady's dismissal of her because of the shoplifting, but that doesn't mean that the other members voted the way they did for the same reason. Even if they did, what is despicable about choosing to give a prestigious legal scholarship to students who chose to respect the law over one who didn't? I don't see them as despicable at all.

[Bryce Lynch]

19 minutes ago, scenario said:

Chuck should be the good guy. The problem that I see is that the Jimmy we see in season 1 is trying to go straight. Chuck knew his brother was a worthless human being. Chuck ended up pushing Jimmy into becoming Saul. 

When did he try to go straight?  In the first few episodes we see him 1) Arrange a dangerous auto accident scheme to try to get a client 2) Accept a bribe from embezzlers who stole from the County 3) Extort his clients into plea bargaining.  4) Infringing on HHM's copyrighted logo...and color :). 5) Stage a billboard accident to make himself look like a hero.  6) Be willing to take $1 million dollars from a mentally incompetent client for a totally unwinnable secession case.  7) Bribe a court clerk with beanie babies. :) 8) Help a "client" steal a police officer's notebook.  9) Try to shake down HHM by falsely representing himself as Chuck's attorney/agent, when Chuck clearly did not want a buy out.  

He had brief spasms of ethical behavior with his elder care practice, but other than that, he was behaving like a scumbag (though a less virulent one than in later seasons) from the start of his law practice.    

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, axlmadonna said:

I'm surprised that this was the moment that Kim realized he was beyond hope, rather than when he was floating the idea of SETTING A JUDGE'S OFFICE ON FIRE as a way to "be the hero". Fire is not a thing you can absolutely contain once it is set in motion, and it travels extremely quickly. There would have been a very good chance that someone was hurt and/or killed by that stunt, yet Kim just gave a slightly concerned look to him seriously suggesting it.

I'm still very confused by the notion that sincerity is required in order to be a lawyer in good standing. There were specific requirements made of Jimmy in order to be re-instated, and he met them all (as far as they know). He went to all of his probation meetings, got a legit job, and behaved like an upstanding citizen for a year. Where does the legal requirement that you be sincerely remorseful enter into it? If you repeat the behavior, you get disbarred. If not, then you continue your profession. Why is there such a subjective process for someone being reinstated?

The young lady in question had shoplifted. That is not a good decision, but it is a very minor indiscretion compared to what Jimmy did (and has done his whole life). He has been given many chances, even after his screw ups from before he became a lawyer (getting a non-lawyering job at HHM, getting that SWEET opportunity at D&M, which he just threw away in the most despicable way, hanging out his own legit shingle, etc.). Each time, he made staggeringly bad choices or simply threw away his opportunities. The girl he was speaking to did one dumb thing in her youth, and lost one potential scholarship. For that, he thinks she should just turn her back on all future legitimate opportunities and break bad? What a terrible way to advise her. Talk about projecting! The fact is, and I say this as someone who acquired a shoplifting misdemeanor on her record at the age of 19, while it does somewhat limit your opportunities, it by no means makes you an outcast in the professional world, especially after the passage of time without any further legal issues. She can absolutely have a bright future, she's no Jimmy.

Furthermore, I'm not sure that she was "deserving" of one of the scholarships, even if she hadn't had a blemish on her legal record. There were a lot more than three applicants, and they were all highly qualified. Jimmy even admitted that several had better grades than she did, among other factors. Jimmy just took exception to the one lady's dismissal of her because of the shoplifting, but that doesn't mean that the other members voted the way they did for the same reason. Even if they did, what is despicable about choosing to give a prestigious legal scholarship to students who chose to respect the law over one who didn't? I don't see them as despicable at all.

Great post!

The plan to set the judge's office on fire was perhaps the most evil and crazy thing he has come up with (so far).  I think Kim just wrote it off as stupid brainstorming, and I think Jimmy realized it was a bad idea, himself.  As I said, it reminded me of "Endless Love" where the teenage boy who get's banned from dating Brooke Shields sets a small fire on her porch, that he plans to put out, but it ends up killing a family member (her father, I think).  

Sincerity is not a requirement per se.  But under the NM Bar regulations, an attorney suspended for longer than 6 months must show by clear and convincing proof that he is, among other things, morally fit to be an attorney.  His perceived lack of sincerity probably caused the committee to not believe he proved his moral fitness.

ITA, that Jimmy was projecting his, very different, situation onto the girl.  He didn't make one mistake at 15, like she did.  He has been a con artist all his life, and keeps screwing up. Despite that he was able to become a lawyer and get a cushy job in an exclusive firm, but he threw it in the trash. 

I agree on the scholarship.  While it might be nice to give one of the three to a sort of underdog, who got in trouble, but has turned things around, the board had no obligation to do so.  I do think referring to her as "the shoplifter" was a bit blunt (though true), but she was clearly the least qualified candidate.  

[Bannon]

37 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sure, deceiving your scumbag brother, as to not hurt his feelings, is just as bad as the numerous felonies and ethical violations Jimmy has committed since Chuck vouched for him before the Bar.  Its even as bad as the stuff Saul will do later, like arrange prison shankings of witnesses, launder millions in drug money, participate in a scheme to poison a kid, etc. etc. etc.   

You, see, the deception is not intended to avoid hurting Jimmy's feeling, given the unlikelihood of the deception remaining undiscovered forever. Jimmy's feelings were always going to get hurt. Chuck was just too much of an ass to have an honest conversation with his brother/servant.

One scumbag doesn't become less of one because the other scumbag does worse things, even much, much, worse things. There is no excuse or mitigation for what Chuck did to Jimmy. None, no matter how awful the things Jimmy did or will do. You don't get to do terribly unethical things to another person  and then offer up "But that person has done much worse things, so I'm not as much of a scumbag!". That isn't how morality or ethics works, when those two qualities are examined with rigor.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Again, what you propose is contrary to available evidence with regard to human behavior, and if we don't have evidence of Jimmy running cons while in the mail room, then we don't have evidence. People's behavior is not predetermined, and there are many examples of habitual rule breakers, worse than Jimmy, who decide to stop doing so. What evidence we have indicates that Jimmy, while in the mail room, laboring for delayed gratification, did not run cons. This is compelling evidence that with the right incentive structure in place, Jimmy will follow rules.

I don't know if it's compelling evidence, but it's some evidence.  We see how much he and now Kim get a charge out of their escapades, could he resist doing that forever?  Maybe, maybe not, nothing is preordained as you say.  But look at Kim, who also was a straight arrow for years, she is becoming Slippin' Kimmy (hyperbole) and she has a big incentive structure in place -- she is a partner in a prestigious firm, got there on her own hard work and would seemingly recognize she has a lot to lose by skating along the edges of not only ethics, but legality.  But she's getting a right proper turn-on and wants to do more.  It remains to be seen if Jimmy's cold-hearted used of Chuck's memory, then cackling about it, puts the brakes on her "powers."  I hope so but I have my doubts. 

As far as Jimmy entertaining any fire idea, that is really beyond the pale given Chuck's manner of death. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by ShadowFacts
Forgot a thought

[PeterPirate]

51 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Both HHM and D&M were really dumb in not recognizing Jimmy had a real talent for creating extremely effective, if cheesy, television ads for soliciting litigation, and he could have set up his own firm's name to appear in the commercial, thus protecting the brand image of HHM and D&M, while Jimmy funneled all the prospective Sandpiper clients to them. I mean, this is exactly what big litigation shops do. For the partners at D&M to get in a snit about an unapproved ad that ran one time, while ignoring the wave of phone calls it generated, instead of saying, "Hey, that's a really great ad, that provided terrific results. Let's just get the Jimmy McGill Law Firm brand on it, not D&M", was really stupid management.

This opinion rests on the assumption that Jimmy would not find another way to harm D&M even with the new business arrangement in place.  

Life is never deterministic, but that's a downside risk that I would not take.  

[qtpye]

14 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Unspoken, but very definitely part of Jimmy's agony in the Esteem, was not just that elites would never let him truly in - but that he was never truly good enough to ever have a Kim love him.

 

7 hours ago, rehoboth said:

Jimmy tells her what he wishes someone had told him years ago so he wouldn't have wasted so much time pursuing a life at HHM or some other big law firm.  He was in essence letting Young Jimmy know what was in store for him, that he will never be a winner, that he will always be looked down on no matter what degree he has earned or what big case he brought in to the firm.

 

7 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

He was hitting on a truth there that a record follows you around, unfairly, for a long time, but he was not being helpful.  She needs different guidance than from a guy ranting in a parking lot. 

Jimmy is dead to me now.  The way he had a blast fooling the bar people with his fake respect for the memory of Chuck overshadows anything I may have still liked about him.  He just oozes sleaze to me now.  So, good job, writers. 

 

6 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

It's conceivable over the eight-month time jump that Jimmy could have squirreled away well more than 20 grand between his on the books job and his drop phone side business.  It's not like he has much in the way of bills living with Kim and no office expenses.  The dedication of the reading room wasn't a clear-cut scam as much as it was a way of drawing a lot of attention within the legal community and making a show of reverence to Chuck's memory.

The more I think about this episode, the more I think it's going to go down as one of the great ones.  Barring Lalo coming through the drop ceiling to murder poor Fred and be every bit the violently stylistic cartoon the rest of the younger generation of Salamancas often are.

Kim makes sense to me if I view her through their talk at the diner last episode following the Lubbock caper.  She was insistent that they only use their "powers" for good and that they would recognize when it was okay to do it.  In her mind, she's convinced herself it's acceptable to bend a few corners or pull a little scam for the thrill as long as it's not actually hurting anyone and something good comes of it.  Up to that point, Jimmy had been talking about getting his license back to be a criminal attorney in what she assumed was a legitimate sense.  Not as a criminal lawyer.  And nothing they were doing in this episode was really technically wrong.  Networking and making donations to get positive attention are legitimate ways business happens.  She had told him to talk about Chuck to the panel.  That's what she believed was happening.  It was only at the end when Jimmy was gloating to her as if he thought she understood and was in on the scam that she realized he was using his own unresolved issues with Chuck to manipulate the panel into doing his bidding.  And oh by the way, I'm not going to be James M. McGill, Esq., you wouldn't go back into business with anyway.  Meet Saul Goodman, criminal lawyer.

In hindsight, it was obvious that final emotional bait and switch was coming from the moment he chased down his scholarship pick on the sidewalk and clearly unnerved her in telling her how it was going to be.  Jimmy's own resentment and self-loathing over never being able to rise above being the ne'er-do-well little brother of the near deified Chuck was on full display throughout this episode.  At least that's how I read the breakdown in the broken down car in the parking garage beneath the (legal) house Chuck built.  And yet we got that lovely if initially surprising cold open back to a time when Chuck was at least believably going through the motions of caring for that little brother, even if he was quick to push his brother out of the way to grab the spotlight and belt out a verse as if to prove he was better at that too.

 

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

It would have perfectly reasonable, and astute, for Chuck to tell Jimmy, "Go build a practice of your own, out of nothing, for 4 or 5 years, and then if your success means that greater access to capital would be useful, THEN we will talk about bringing you under the HHM banner. That would require honesty, however, something the McGill brothers have in short supply.

 

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

As usual, the acting was incredible. Unlike many shows, BCS doesn't feel the need to rely only on broad, emotional scenes for impact. The small, quiet ones work just as well and that's a testament to this cast. Bob Odenkirk really delivered in every scene in this episode - from his little smiles to Kim to the rant to his scholarship candidate and then the full-on breakdown in the car. 

Having said that, I am going to be a dissenter and say that I was a bit disappointed in this episode. Way, way too much time was spent with the search for Werner. Yes, I understand that Werner served his purpose primarily in Mike's story line to gradually become "Gus' man." However, it was a long run for a short slide. IMO, the entire meth lab story line was tedious. It was just a matter of which engineer was going to go rogue and doom the completion of the project (Kai or Werner). I'm curious to see how this gets addressed next season.

I was also sorry that we didn't see more of Nacho, both last night and in the season has a whole. His story line seemed to stall out in the last third of the season. 

Perhaps this was just me but I was distracted by Jimmy and Kim's activity early in the episode: crying at the grave, the library dedication, the scholarship committee. I was confused on the timeline (unnecessarily) and kept asking myself questions like "where did he get $23,000." Anyway, I spent too much time on the details and didn't step back to look at the broader plot. 

However, I loved how the groundwork was laid for his transformation into Saul and how he will carry his disrespect for the legal community with him. Jimmy/Saul wants to practice law but not uphold the law.

All in all, this is a wonderful show and I dread the long wait before we see Jimmy, Kim, Mike and Nacho again.

 

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Two things kind of interfered with my enjoyment of this episode, which was still pretty good.  I thought the insertion of Lalo was unnecessary, as mentioned above.  Another time next season would have been fine to showcase that he's a clever psycho, he didn't add anything here.  An innocent person gets murdered, no me gusta.   I also did not buy Werner accepting his end so calmly, going to look at the stars.  I did not want him to go that gently into that goodnight.  They spent a lot of time on his character the last few episodes, and then just a sheep to slaughter.  Mike didn't even seem that conflicted, more just resigned.  It didn't work for me. 

 

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

It's one of the many skills he learned at the feet of Hector. 

I thought she was buying the off-script portion of his speech hook, line and sinker, she had tears in her eyes.  I think she thought he finally had a breakthrough, but he really just broke through to another level of insincerity. 

 

2 hours ago, scenario said:

It would take him years, decades to get people to look up to him the way they looked up to Chuck. Jimmy always takes the easy way out. He would have been fine to be the second banana if Chuck would have respected him for trying. I could see Jimmy setting up a practice with Chuck watching him closely and Jimmy playing it straight for the most part. Keeping his scams to things like the commercial. He'd let HHM use him to do the dirty work as long as Chuck respected him for what he was.  

Once Chuck made it clear that he didn't give a damn about Jimmy, Jimmy had three choices. He could spent decades trying to outchuck Chuck and probably failing. Or he could try to tear Chucks legacy down and be hated for it. He chose to say the hell with it and go for the cash grab. 

 

I love this show and will miss it on hiatus. Gilligan is one of my favorite showrunners and this helped me get through my manic Mondays. 

I open with this because my comments might make it seem otherwise.

There is a trope where a character exists solely to define or redeem another character. It is not unusual for this character to be a woman or a person of color.  Here this character was the world's most lovable German Civil Engineer. This highly intelligent man from a country with a history of not taking "half measures" is really thinking that he could escape for a couple of days of vacation with his beloved wife? Did he not think about the brutality of criminals that would go to such lengths to create a super lab? Even though his death scene was beautiful it almost seemed like the character was like "Yeah, my arc is over, I just personified how Mike became Gus's brutal enforcer so time for me to die". It really was a handful of nothing.   What really ground my gears was that Jimmy is taking his misplaced anger against Chuck out on the entire ABQ legal community. I mean he was accepted into their ranks. He had an amazing job with Davis and Main which he purposely messed up because of Shannigans. A mature person would just speak like an adult to the partners about how it was not a good fit and worked something out but Jimmy always has to go ass clown. Howard was always a fan of Jimmy and even referred to him as "Charlie Hustle". Howard would have hired him if it was not for Chuck. Jimmy has always been an ass to Howard and never really let up. Now I have a serious question for all the intelligent people that post on this board. Does anyone think that Jimmy was sincere in the hearing but is pretending to be a jerk to Kim so he does not drag her down? He had a very strange look on his face when she said she will always be "with him". Maybe, Kim was like the old lady that he first ostracized from her friends and then threw himself under the bus so he could make things right?

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

This opinion rests on the assumption that Jimmy would not find another way to harm D&M even with the new business arrangement in place.  

Life is never deterministic, but that's a downside risk that I would not take.  

You just have a contract provision that says Jimmy doesn't get paid for any commercial which he doesn't run by you first, and that he can't do any other legal work but run the commercials. Then you backload the considerable compensation, contingent on all provisions of the contract being adhered to. Jimmy does like money. What he doesn't like is not being able to advance himself. He ran the commercial without D&M's approval because he rightly suspected they would shoot it down without seeing how well it worked. He overestimated their intelligence in thinking that the results would be such that they could think of a solution to the brand image issue, but, to be fair, Jimmy should have proposed the solution himself.  The solution is obvious, but nobody sees it, which is not all that unusual. 

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, scenario said:

Chuck should be the good guy. The problem that I see is that the Jimmy we see in season 1 is trying to go straight. Chuck knew his brother was a worthless human being. Chuck ended up pushing Jimmy into becoming Saul. 

I am very sorry. But despite spending more than an hour trying to produce a reply to the above post, I failed. No matter how often I tried or how many different ways in which I tried, I just kept on failing.

My reply always seemed to devolve into a soliloquy about Harvey Weinstein and the way in which our society seems to have devolved in such a way that it now seems quite impossible (at least impossible for me) to discuss gender rights.  The only thing I've been able to accomplish was to make a big mess. So, ...... I apologize to you all and I'm afraid that I cannot explain why I've been unable to produce any kind of sensible reply.  I'm sorry and disheartened. I don't know what to say except, "Yuck".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm very sorry but I intended to erase the above post before I left this board for the day. I don't know why or how. But this post has remained here apparently for quite some time before I realized it was just a mistake.  I intended to erase it and I'm sorry but I decided to leave it here in case anyone has written a reply.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MissBluxom

[PeterPirate]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

You just have a contract provision that says Jimmy doesn't get paid for any commercial which he doesn't run by you first, and that he can't do any other legal work but run the commercials. Then you backload the considerable compensation, contingent on all provisions of the contract being adhered to. Jimmy does like money. What he doesn't like is not being able to advance himself. He ran the commercial without D&M's approval because he rightly suspected they would shoot it down without seeing how well it worked. He overestimated their intelligence in thinking that the results would be such that they could think of a solution to the brand image issue, but, to be fair, Jimmy should have proposed the solution himself.  The solution is obvious, but nobody sees it, which is not all that unusual. 

Again, I'm not an attorney, so I really don't have the perspective necessary to evaluate the intelligence of lawyers.  However, D&M seemed to be a successful firm with high-end clients, and all three partners deemed Jimmy's actions to be detrimental to their firm in the eyes of those clients, regardless of how well the commercial ran.  And in this case I will rely on the managerial decision-making process that I learned in kindergarten and go with the three instead of the one.  

And even with that contract provision in place--or any other provision for that matter--Jimmy could still find a completely new way to damage the firm.  

Edited October 9, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Eulipian 5k]

36 minutes ago, Bannon said:

You just have a contract provision that says Jimmy doesn't get paid for any commercial which he doesn't run by you first, and that he can't do any other legal work but run the commercials.

It didn't sound like this was a new question. It seemed that No TV Ads was "settled law" in the company. It may well have been written in company policy, anyway. All the senior staff knew it was wrong and felt it would damage their reputation. Lawyers and doctors didn't do TV ads and I got the impression that ethics was the reason. I'm sure both professions could pump up their business with a TV campaign  but where would it end?

Oh right,, it ends with those reallly, really, sleazzy ads Saul Goodman runs on TV.

[scenario]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

When did he try to go straight?  In the first few episodes we see him 1) Arrange a dangerous auto accident scheme to try to get a client 2) Accept a bribe from embezzlers who stole from the County 3) Extort his clients into plea bargaining.  4) Infringing on HHM's copyrighted logo...and color :). 5) Stage a billboard accident to make himself look like a hero.  6) Be willing to take $1 million dollars from a mentally incompetent client for a totally unwinnable secession case.  7) Bribe a court clerk with beanie babies. :) 8) Help a "client" steal a police officer's notebook.  9) Try to shake down HHM by falsely representing himself as Chuck's attorney/agent, when Chuck clearly did not want a buy out.  

He had brief spasms of ethical behavior with his elder care practice, but other than that, he was behaving like a scumbag (though a less virulent one than in later seasons) from the start of his law practice.    

When we first see him he is taking care of his mentally ill brother while trying to set up his own law practice. His only income are defense cases that the government gives him that pay next to nothing. He is desperate for money. Slippin' Jimmy always takes the easy way out. He wouldn't be setting up car accidents if he wasn't desperate for money. 

Jimmy tries to do the right thing when times are easy. When times are tough he takes the easy way out and cheats. He's not a good guy. But he's not the evil guy he will become. Chuck lied to him and told him he was scum over and over again. Chuck could have tried to help. Or he could have told Jimmy to go away much sooner. Instead he was willing to keep Jimmy around and use him. 

So the way I see it, Jimmy is not inherently evil, he'll take the straight and narrow path if it is easy. But dealing with a mentally ill person who knew just what to say and do to deeply hurt him pushed him to choose the evil path. If he wasn't deeply flawed to start with he wouldn't be on the path he's on, but the path was not written in stone. 

5 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

It didn't sound like this was a new question. It seemed that No TV Ads was "settled law" in the company. It may well have been written in company policy, anyway. All the senior staff knew it was wrong and felt it would damage their reputation. Lawyers and doctors didn't do TV ads and I got the impression that ethics was the reason. I'm sure both professions could pump up their business with a TV campaign  but where would it end?

Oh right,, it ends with those reallly, really, sleazzy ads Saul Goodman runs on TV.

On the other hand, should companies like sandpiper get away with stealing their clients money because the victims either don't know they were robbed or they don't know where to turn? 

[Ohwell]

Part of it might be the heavy makeup but Kim's face is hard/harsh-looking and the way she barks just makes me want to cover my ears.

[Bannon]

59 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Again, I'm not an attorney, so I really don't have the perspective necessary to evaluate the intelligence of lawyers.  However, D&M seemed to be a successful firm with high-end clients, and all three partners deemed Jimmy's actions to be detrimental to their firm in the eyes of those clients, regardless of how well the commercial ran.  And in this case I will rely on the managerial decision-making process that I learned in kindergarten and go with the three instead of the one.  

And even with that contract provision in place--or any other provision for that matter--Jimmy could still find a completely new way to damage the firm.  

You don't need tp be an attorney to recognize poor problem solving skills, and managers at successul businesses make mistakes  and when they make them frequently enough, the business becomes unsuccessful. The idea that you are going to be able to find employees who are well above average at generating revenues, and without significant weaknesses is just unrealistic. Employees who are really good at generating revenues are rare, so when you get one, they need to be managed, so their weaknesses are mitigated. This is how managers are supposed to earn their salaries, by extracting value, while limiting risk. Does  it work all the time? Of course not, but that's why you need to be creative. Jimmy being a poor fit for a large, traditional law firm was a solvable problem, I think.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

You, see, the deception is not intended to avoid hurting Jimmy's feeling, given the unlikelihood of the deception remaining undiscovered forever. Jimmy's feelings were always going to get hurt. Chuck was just too much of an ass to have an honest conversation with his brother/servant.

One scumbag doesn't become less of one because the other scumbag does worse things, even much, much, worse things. There is no excuse or mitigation for what Chuck did to Jimmy. None, no matter how awful the things Jimmy did or will do. You don't get to do terribly unethical things to another person  and then offer up "But that person has done much worse things, so I'm not as much of a scumbag!". That isn't how morality or ethics works, when those two qualities are examined with rigor.

When Chuck started the deception, Jimmy was not his servant.  He was they guy Chuck freed from a prison sentence and sex offender tag and gave a job.  

Keeping a secret to avoid hurting someone's feelings, and breaking up the only family relationship that Jimmy had,  is not even close to as bad as what Jimmy did.  

I'm pretty sure just about every person on earth has, at one time or another, made up an excuse to not do something for or with a family member.   That does not make them "scumbags" especially when they saved that family member's life from utter ruin.  

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

As far as Jimmy entertaining any fire idea, that is really beyond the pale given Chuck's manner of death. 

So true!  I hadn't thought of that.