S04.E05: Quite A Ride

[Bryce Lynch]

18 minutes ago, jww said:

"really want to see those kids get the shit kicked out of them. Maybe Jimmy/Saul can make some deal with the bikers to protect him and break those punks' legs - all six legs."

Actually if/when the bikers realize they paid  2-5x retail for the phones they may come looking for Jimmy for a refund(Walmart has prepaid phones  now for $15) also it is hard to believe no one was aware of the ready availability of prepaid/disposal phones.  I do believe Jimmy cleaning the windows was symbolic of Jimmy deciding to clean up his act  and not do anything to endanger his probation and getting his law  license back.

Yeah, I get why all those people would want burner phones.  But, why not just go into a cell phone store and buy them at retail prices?  If they are afraid of being seen on surveillance cameras, or whatever, buying them, they could always pay someone a small fee to go to the store for them.   

[nodorothyparker]

Terrific episode with a lot of moving parts.

I love how the cold open of the last days of Saul Goodman, which initially just felt like a little bonus love letter to Breaking Bad, ending up being such a poignant bookend to Jimmy's grandiose speech about Wexler McGill rising stronger faster higher when his suspension is over to the bored PO's "So, lawyer."  As we already know and are reminded of in that cold open, none of that is going to happen.  Saul Goodman is going to crash and burn at the end without any of the people who ever mattered to him, unable to even get a begrudging goodbye hug from the one person who knew him when he was Jimmy. 

The montage of hawking the burner phones was fantastic, especially in the misdirect of Jimmy wrongly pegging the bikers as the danger rather than the weaselly kids.  There's a couple of ways his later "back in the day" comment to Kim and washing off the windows could go.  He could be resolving himself to clean up and fly straight as it's "only" 9 months and however many days until he can get his law license back, or it could be him realizing that he can't be half in and half out as it leaves him open to being careless and missing things like the little punks.  He correctly sized up that the criminal element he wanted to sell burner phones to were probably not going to be driving by his sad little strip mall and see his all but blinking sign in literal foot-high letters, but he needs to be smarter about it.

Kim seems stuck in that place where you sort of know that you're not on track doing what you're supposed to be doing but you're not yet gauging how serious it is or that you may be actively sabotaging yourself.  It was pretty incredible to hear basically "I work for this one bank.  I've got all the time in the world" from the same woman who worked herself so ragged she fell asleep at the wheel last season.  It's clear she's having some sort of internal crisis over what her priorities are or what they should be.  Which on the surface level feels somewhat understandable in that the huge issue for Mesa Verde turned out to be something that someone else was able to fix while her client would be going to jail and her life would be worse if Kim didn't help her right now.  But she also made a huge commitment to Mesa Verde.  She knows what Jimmy did to get the bank's business for her and what the ultimate fallout to Chuck and Jimmy's relationship that they're all living in the ashes of now are as a result.

No job is worth standing on the side of a highway with a bag over your head or riding around to parts unknown with said bag on your head for what looked like half a day one direction.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, attica said:

Disagree pretty hard with this. Kim could have gotten David's case thrown out, based on what-his-name's improper handling of the case. She instead negotiated some punishment for him, which shows she thinks he bears responsibility.  Anyway the point of a defense attorney isn't so much to make angels of their clients, it's to hold the prosecutors to the standards set forth by law. You wanna throw somebody in jail, depriving them of their freedom? You gotta come correct.  Every defendant deserves zealous representation, regardless of their low-life-ness. Doing so protects all of us.

Maybe.  I think it depends upon what evidence was excluded by the Miranda violation and what other evidence there might be.  It seemed more like she was shaking down the DA, by threatening to get him in trouble with the judge, than that she was 100% confident the case would be thrown out.  

It is a double-edged sword.  Defense attorneys help protect the rights of innocent people by protecting scumbags, but they also make life more dangerous for innocent people by putting scumbags back on the streets more quickly.  As I said, earlier, I think today reading Miranda rights is a bit of a needless formality.  Everyone knows them, and studies say that between 80 to 93% of suspects waive them anyway.  Police can do all sorts of tricks to convince people to talk and not speak with an attorney, but if they don't go through the formality of telling the suspects what they already know, evidence and cases can be thrown out.   I'd have been more sympathetic to Kim and the young man if an illegal search had been involved.  Illegal searches are a more realistic threat to civil rights, IMO.  

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, I get why all those people would want burner phones.  But, why not just go into a cell phone store and buy them at retail prices?  If they are afraid of being seen on surveillance cameras, or whatever, buying them, they could always pay someone a small fee to go to the store for them.   

The roll out of pre paid mobile phones in the U.S. was very uneven. I think it began in Houston in 1994, but there were regulatory roadblocks that really slowed things down. It really mau have been 2005 or so before it arrived in Albuquerque, and it would not be unusual for there to be a delay prior to widespread market penetration with the likes of WalMart. Jimmy may be just taking advantage in a somewhat brief window of opportunity. I'm old enough to remember when cell phone salespeople could earn 150k-plus (in late 80s money!) annual incomes.

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

She knows what Jimmy did to get the bank's business for her and what the ultimate fallout to Chuck and Jimmy's relationship that they're all living in the ashes of now are as a result.

I think you are onto something.  Kim could be subconsciously sabotaging her relationship with Mesa Verde because she feels so guilty about how Jimmy got it for her and that it ended up costing Chuck his life.  

[SunnyBeBe]

24 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Frankly, the most unrealistic part was that a first time offender like that, in New Mexico, would ever be threatened with real jail time. If they portrayed the New Mexico criminal justice system realistically, where even violent criminality frequently results in very light sentences, a lot of the audience would be commenting on how unrealistic it is.

I don't know if NM had sentencing guidelines back then and no time to search, but, most states did. Plus, there are first offender deferral programs that most qualify for if no prior convictions, etc. (You do community service, keep job, don't get more charges and they are dismissed.) I worked in the beginning on court appointed for about 2 years and if you go full on, it's a lot of work and you are in court a lot. Not much pay though.  Maybe, it's just me, but to call it fulfilling.....it's a stretch. Hasn't Kim done it before? There's nothing wrong with being zealous. In fact that's required from an attorney, but, I just don't get an experienced attorney vibe from her on these indigent criminal cases. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[ahmerali]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think you are onto something.  Kim could be subconsciously sabotaging her relationship with Mesa Verde because she feels so guilty about how Jimmy got it for her and that it ended up costing Chuck his life.  

Good call. I didn't consider that angle but she's just trying to salvage something out of this whole situation. Or maybe it's a bit of, "Jimmy isn't bothered about it, why should I care about that hoity-toity world any more?"

[RedBaron]

On 9/4/2018 at 12:38 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

Except what she does as a public defender actually harms society.  That scumbag kid she got off with 4 months probabation is almost certainly going to hurt a lot of people and it is unlikely that Denise will turn her life around.  

I think that is what Judge Neelix was trying to warn her about.  

It is a catch-22.  Criminal defense attorneys are obviously necessary to a fair justice system.  But, people get robbed, assaulted, raped, and murdered every day because of the work they do.

I could not disagree with this more.  Defense attorneys do not "harm"society and people do not get robbed, assaulted, raped and murdered because of the work public defenders do.  If some scumbag is getting off it is because the police or the prosecutor did not do their job correctly.  If a statement or evidence gets suppressed, it is not the defense attorneys fault for pointing out the constitutional violations that occurred.  By keeping the police and prosecutors in line, it makes the system safer for everyone.   If no violations occur, then nothing gets suppressed.  It's how the system is supposed to work.   They are the last line of defense in making sure people's constitutional and civil rights are not violated and people get a fair trial.  It is up to them to call out any violations (and not just look the other way).  Again, if the police and prosecutors do their job legally and by the book, it is not an issue.    I think public defenders are especially noble since they are most likely representing defendants who are more likely to be impoverished and minorities -- the main groups of people most likely to have rights trampled and get railroaded.    

I do agree with SunnyBeBe in that the conversation between Kim and the DA was not realistic.  They went back and forth from 7 years in prison to 4 mos. probation.  Most sentencing guidelines would not allow that type of leeway.

I also agree that Kim is still idealistic and seems to find helping people more satisfying than her work on Mesa Verde but she already made a commitment to Mesa Verde and they are relying on just her because of the big push/presentation she made to them.  She definitely needs to handle it better if she wants out.  It's unfair to them if she's decided she just not into it anymore..   I'll be interested to see where her storyline is headed. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by RedBaron

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I don't know if NM had sentencing guidelines back then and no time to search, but, most states did. Plus, there are first offender programs that most qualify for if no prior convictions, etc.  I worked in the beginning on court appointed for about 2 years and if you go full on, it's a lot of work and you are in court a lot. Maybe, it's just me, but to call it fulfilling.....it's a stretch. Hasn't Kim done it before? There's nothing wrong with being zealous. In fact that's required from an attorney, but, I just don't get an experienced attorney vibe from her on these indigent criminal cases. 

Who knows? Maybe she just is coming around to the reality that she wants to specialize in criminal defense exclusively, and is just dipping her toe in the water with these indigent cases, while subconciously sabotaging her career in banking regulation. I don't know where the writers are going, but I am very interested in finding out.

[nodorothyparker]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Kim could be subconsciously sabotaging her relationship with Mesa Verde because she feels so guilty about how Jimmy got it for her and that it ended up costing Chuck his life.  

I do think this figures heavily into whatever's going on with her as we know she feels a fair amount of guilt of over what happened to Chuck at Jimmy's bar hearing.  She brought it up when Howard made his big confessional and I think at least one other time since then.  Having no way of knowing that Jimmy tipped off the malpractice insurance about Chuck's issues, it seems reasonable to think the company must have learned about it from the transcripts of that hearing.  Paige told Kim they made Chuck sound like a loon to the point that they completely disregarded Jimmy's confession about what he did to Mesa Verde's files as real.

It has the potential to be a double-edged sword for Kim.  She may not want it knowing that the fight over it ultimately led to Chuck's death.  Or she may be completely crushed when she finally does lose their business because of the cost to both brothers to get it.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, RedBaron said:

I could not disagree with this more.  Defense attorneys do not "harm"society and people do not get robbed, assaulted, raped and murdered because of the work public defenders do.  If some scumbag is getting off it is because the police or the prosecutor did not do their job correctly.  If a statement or evidence gets suppressed, it is not the defense attorneys fault for pointing out the constitutional violations that occurred.  Are they supposed to look the other way?  If no violations occur, then nothing gets suppressed.  It's how the system is supposed to work.   They are the last line of defense in making sure people's constitutional and civil rights are not violated and people get a fair trial.  It is up to them to call out any violations (and not just look the other way).  Again, if the police and prosecutors do their job legally and by the book, it is not an issue.    I think public defenders are especially noble since they are most likely representing defendants who are more likely to be impoverished and minorities -- the main groups of people most likely to have rights trampled and get railroaded.    

I do agree with SunnyBeBe in that the conversation between Kim and the DA was not realistic.  They went back and forth from 7 years in prison to 4 mos. probation.  Most sentencing guidelines would not allow that type of leeway.

I also agree that Kim is still idealistic and seems to find helping people more satisfying than her work on Mesa Verde but she already made a commitment to Mesa Verde and they are relying on just her because of the big push/presentation she made to them.  She definitely needs to handle it better if she wants out.  It's unfair to them if she's decided she just not into it anymore..   I'll be interested to see where her storyline is headed. 

However you slice it, defense attorneys assist people guilty of crimes (often horrific ones) in beating charges and getting light sentences.  Those criminals go back on the streets and rob, assault, rape, kill, etc, more innocent people.  They also routinely and deliberately distort and conceal facts to accomplish this.   Preventing an innocent person from be railroaded is a noble thing.  But, most of what defense attorneys do is try to prevent guilty people from paying for their crimes.  They are necessary to have a legitimate justice system and I guess that helps them sleep at night, but there is no question that thousands of people are victimized each year, as a result of the work of zealous defense attorneys.  

My point is, if Kim hoped to find fulfillment and redemption in doing legal aid work, she will likely find just the opposite.  As Judge Neelix reminded her, for every case where she gets the chance to save an innocent, helpless person, she will probably work 20 or 50 cases where she tries to help a person who deserves to go to prison, avoid it.   I doubt that will make her feel better, in the long run.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[RedBaron]

On 9/4/2018 at 4:30 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

However you slice it, defense attorneys assist people guilty of crimes (often horrific ones) in beating charges and getting light sentences.  Those criminals go back on the streets and rob, assault, rape, kill, etc, more innocent people.  They also routinely and deliberately distort and conceal facts to accomplish this.   Preventing an innocent person from be railroaded is a noble thing.  But, most of what defense attorneys do is try to prevent guilty people from paying for their crimes.  They are necessary to have a legitimate justice system and I guess that help them sleep at night, but there is no question that thousands of people are victimized each year, as a result of the work of zealous defense attorneys.  

Yeah, I would guess that making sure the justice system is legitimate and fair, would help them sleep at night.  

I still think you are blaming the wrong people.  And if you are referring to illegal behavior by defense attorneys (or any attorney), that is a different can of worms and definitely not the norm or "routine."  There are checks in place for that as well.  In this episode, it was the prosecutor who didn't want his unethical behavior to come to light so he agreed to the deal.  Who's fault is that?

Anyway, my previous post pretty much already responds to this so we can agree to disagree.  

Edited September 4, 2018 by RedBaron

[teddysmom]

1 hour ago, attica said:

Disagree pretty hard with this. Kim could have gotten David's case thrown out, based on what-his-name's improper handling of the case. She instead negotiated some punishment for him, which shows she thinks he bears responsibility.  Anyway the point of a defense attorney isn't so much to make angels of their clients, it's to hold the prosecutors to the standards set forth by law. You wanna throw somebody in jail, depriving them of their freedom? You gotta come correct.  Every defendant deserves zealous representation, regardless of their low-life-ness. Doing so protects all of us.

THIS.  One of those times that low life didn't do the crime. 

What if it wasn't a "low life", but your kid? 

[wendyg]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

When Saul arrived at the vacuum cleaner shop with the disappearer, Walt was already there. 

Yes - I think for about three days. Saul was wearing the right color shirt (purple) for it to be the day the disappearer picked him up. I loved Francesca's reaction to the attempted hug. (And thought Saul really should have given her more money up front.)

What's really noticeable about Kim's work with these defendants is that her approach is very like Jimmy's was when he was doing the same work. She tells them in no-nonsense terms what to do and what awaits them if they don't follow her instructions. I thought the kid looked like he was taking in what she was telling him when she warned him what it would be like for him in "adult jail".

Francesca and Kim already know each other, so ISTM she wouldn't need Kim's card. She *would* need Howard's, though. Or that of the prosecutor we're always seeing in these cases.

The first contractor was obviously bullshitting, and the mention of a previous illegal job didn't help. So either he didn't have a clue what the job really involved (in which case: disastrous cave-in) or he was a cowboy out to take their money and would do a crappy job (in which case: ditto). Either way, not someone you want. Noticeable that first guy showed up like a real estate agent with an infrared beam to measure rooms and a laptop...2nd guy shows his reams of experience by bringing a little notebook, a pen, and his brain.

What shocked Jimmy, I think, was realizing how atrophied his "Slippin' Jimmy" muscles were: he *thought* he could go back an interact on the streets the way he always had, but the time away in corporate law and near-respectability has in fact changed him in ways he didn't recognize until now. He *thought* the punks would realize he was one of them...instead, they see a middle-aged, middle-class guy with money they can roll. He needs a new image. Fortunately for him, there's one waiting for him.

[JudyObscure]

56 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Saul Goodman is going to crash and burn at the end without any of the people who ever mattered to him, unable to even get a begrudging goodbye hug from the one person who knew him when he was Jimmy. 

{ I think you're a better writer than Dorothy Parker who could be sort of a snot.}

I hope the show fills in what I always thought were some missing moments in the Francesca/Jimmy relationship.  Jimmy liked her so much when he first hired her, going against Kim's misgivings and praising her for her kindness to the elders.  I understand that she was disillusioned over Jimmy and probably pretty horrified by Saul from time to time, but why the out and out hatred that developed?

[wendyg]

2 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I understand that she was disillusioned over Jimmy and probably pretty horrified by Saul from time to time, but why the out and out hatred that developed?

I think it was the

Spoiler

call to Hank about Marie that did it.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

THIS.  One of those times that low life didn't do the crime. 

What if it wasn't a "low life", but your kid? 

If my kid is a lowlife criminal, regardless of how I feel about it, it is objectively, still not good for society for him to get away with his crimes.  

Again, my main point, is that I don't think Kim is going to find the fulfillment and absolution she is seeking, by tanking her relationship with MV and helping mostly guilty people avoid jail.   Wait till she finds out that the kid she got 4 months probation, or another client, mugged and old lady, or killed someone.  She feels horribly guilty about zealously defending Jimmy and destroying Chuck in the process.  Is she going to feel less guilty after tearing apart a rape victim on the stand to try to get a client off?

I think a person who can compartmentalize and put ethics on a higher plain than morals can live with the moral implications of facilitating criminals much better than one who can't.  Kim doesn't seem to have that sort of mindset.  Her lecture to the young man (which was clearly falling on deaf ears) tells me she is deluding herself into thinking she is going to make a difference in her clients' lives and help them reform.  Maybe, she will occasionally help a Denise type, but most of them are going to use Kim to get away with crimes, so they can commit more crimes.  I think Kim will either need to shut off her consciences, like Jimmy, or she will feel even more guilty in her new area of practice.  

[ahmerali]

8 minutes ago, wendyg said:

I think it was the

  Hide contents

call to Hank about Marie that did it.

You could be right, but she would have had to pull all sorts of crap for him like this over the years.

[wendyg]

I think that's part of it - she started out by liking him and he's relentlessly sucked her into crime and danger. I think she retains some personal liking for him beneath the anger, though. It's a relationship I'm hoping they'll explore more, because she really is the one person who's been in his life through these stages. My guess is Saul figures by November she'll be able to give him a sense of when and if he can come back...but note that despite her anger and even contempt....she expects to be there to answer the phone.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, ahmerali said:

You could be right, but she would have had to pull all sorts of crap for him like this over the years.

The incident mentioned might have been one of the things that made Francesca start to dislike Saul. (Afterward she said he needed to pay her more) But, I think the general sleaziness of the practice and all his scummy clients seemed to wear on her as well.  The DMV  MVD must have seemed like paradise compared to looking out into Saul's waiting room.  

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

No job is worth standing on the side of a highway with a bag over your head or riding around to parts unknown with said bag on your head for what looked like half a day one direction.

Yes, nothing bad could happen with that. 

19 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

{ I think you're a better writer than Dorothy Parker who could be sort of a snot.}

I hope the show fills in what I always thought were some missing moments in the Francesca/Jimmy relationship.  Jimmy liked her so much when he first hired her, going against Kim's misgivings and praising her for her kindness to the elders.  I understand that she was disillusioned over Jimmy and probably pretty horrified by Saul from time to time, but why the out and out hatred that developed?

I seem to remember Saul making an ugly smart ass comment about her physicality, but I can't remember what.  Anyway, I was happy when she refused his hug. 

[nodorothyparker]

2 hours ago, wendyg said:

What shocked Jimmy, I think, was realizing how atrophied his "Slippin' Jimmy" muscles were: he *thought* he could go back an interact on the streets the way he always had, but the time away in corporate law and near-respectability has in fact changed him in ways he didn't recognize until now. He *thought* the punks would realize he was one of them...instead, they see a middle-aged, middle-class guy with money they can roll. He needs a new image. Fortunately for him, there's one waiting for him.

You said much more succinctly what I think I was trying to get at.  Jimmy's nearing that point where he can't be half in and half out.  He just got his ass kicked by some snot-nosed punks he feels he should have picked up on who also should have recognized him as a fellow hustler.

From the way Francesca scoffed at him when Jimmy wistfully said what a ride it had been, I imagine she's seen quite a few things along the way that have really soured her from the days when her biggest challenge on the job was how to engage Jimmy's elderly clients over how much they enjoyed Cracker Barrel.

 

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

{ I think you're a better writer than Dorothy Parker who could be sort of a snot.}

Thanks, but it always takes me a dozen words to say what she could manage in half that.  I'm a great admirer of her wit but there's a reason my handle is what it is.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, nothing bad could happen with that. 

I seem to remember Saul making an ugly smart ass comment about her physicality, but I can't remember what.  Anyway, I was happy when she refused his hug. 

Is this it?

Saul: "Take a break, H.T. Let's go."

Francesca: "You're going to stop calling me that or I'm gonna hang you by your tie."

Saul: "Yeah, yeah, stop showing off for the client. Honey Tits! I say it's endearing."

[nodorothyparker]

Saul also asked her if he could come home with her in the very first episode of BB they appeared.  She was clearly over it even then.

[wendyg]

But she doesn't quit; she's clearly decided he's worth putting up with for some reason. Either she likes the person but not the job or it's going to turn out that her association with him makes her unemployable elsewhere.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, wendyg said:

But she doesn't quit; she's clearly decided he's worth putting up with for some reason. Either she likes the person but not the job or it's going to turn out that her association with him makes her unemployable elsewhere.

I'm thinking Saul pays her well enough to make all the risk and unpleasantness worth her while.  

[nodorothyparker]

4 minutes ago, wendyg said:

But she doesn't quit; she's clearly decided he's worth putting up with for some reason. Either she likes the person but not the job or it's going to turn out that her association with him makes her unemployable elsewhere.

If I had to hazard a guess, I would imagine that Saul still being Jimmy in there somewhere with Jimmy's unfailing sense of loyalty probably pays her very well to stick around.  That and given the amount of open disdain we saw from "legitimate" characters on BB for Saul, you're probably right that a work history or reference that involves him probably isn't a selling point in her favor to get decent work elsewhere.

[Bannon]

The larger point being driven home, via the story of Kim's evolution, may be that personal fulfillment, via a career in law, in any aspect of its practice, is very,  very, theoretical. The rule of law may be, as Chuck maintained, human civilization's greteast achievement, given the alternative,  but it still comes down to the blunt application of coercive power, and that is simply innately brutal.

[peeayebee]

12 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I believe the shoebox is the box of memorabilia we see Gene open up in the flash forward of episode 101.  It contained some old photos,  a passport, the Band Aid box that he kept his childhood coin collection in and the VHS tape of Saul Goodman ads.

Thanks for the reminder. Actually, before reading your post I had read an interview with Odenkirk where he says, "I would say that something happens to this guy, Jimmy McGill, that makes him compartmentalize so much of himself — his heart, his empathy, his hope for himself. All that stuff gets locked in a box and hidden underneath his Saul persona." Reading that I thought, Aha! This is the box in the wall (as well as the actual box of memories).

 

12 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I think Jimmy knows exactly what is eating Howard, and he's reveling in it. 

As I quoted above, Jimmy is compartmentalizing himself, and this knowledge about what's bothering Howard is in one of those compartments. It's in his subconscious, so I believe when he asks what's eating him, it's an honest question for where his mind is at the moment. Howard can't believe that Jimmy is being so dense, and he probably believes that Jimmy is simply being cruel, which is why he stops trying to explain and just leaves. 

 

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

And now I'm recalling my ex husband frequently saying "mox nix," from the German for "it doesn't matter" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mox_nix ).

Ha! I had forgotten that my late husband also said that, but I don't think I ever knew what it meant. I thought it was Pig Latin or something. 

I think that Kim's client David is going to come back to bite her in the butt, meaning that he's going to commit a vicious crime which Kim blames herself over. When she was talking to him after getting him off, you could see from his smug face that he planned on doing whatever the hell he wanted. His expression did change ever so slightly at the very end, but I highly doubt he will stay on the straight and narrow for long at all.

Edited September 4, 2018 by peeayebee

[ShadowFacts]

25 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Is this it?

Saul: "Take a break, H.T. Let's go."

Francesca: "You're going to stop calling me that or I'm gonna hang you by your tie."

Saul: "Yeah, yeah, stop showing off for the client. Honey Tits! I say it's endearing."

Yep, that was it.  What a jackass.

[sempervivum]

Are we meant to recognize that the MV contract (or whatever it was) error that caused all the uproar at Kim's office, was something she herself missed when she was supposedly 'checking her assistant's work' the night Jimmy got beat up?

And was there some meaning to the fact that the movie Jimmy chose (which Kim didn't want to watch) was 'Dr. Zhivago'? 

As a more recent viewer, I have to say what is not a news flash to most of you: that it seems clear to me that Jimmy just doesn't have it in him to follow the straight and narrow. He approached his scamming (conning the shady contractor into buying a whole bunch of burner phones; his own street selling, including specially 'dressing the part') as if it were a legitimate JOB to which he was fully committed. Based on his conversation with the probation officer, he's only been at the phone store less than a week; he has already given up on it and moved straight to 'slippin' '-risking not just his probation, but his career and future with Kim-because he's bored. BTW, for all his pains, I doubt that he could have made more than a few hundred $ in profit.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, ShadowFacts said:

Yep, that was it.  What a jackass.

Yeah, even if the DEA lets Saul off the hook, he'd have to stay in hiding from #metoo. :)

[PeterPirate]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, even if the DEA lets Saul off the hook, he'd have to stay in hiding from #metoo. :)

Yeah, but he still has a date with a hot blonde on November 12.  

[teddysmom]

46 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

What if it wasn't a "low life", but your kid? 

Your kid isn't a low life criminal, but someone arrested for something and the police and DA don't follow proper protocol.  

The boy in BCS didn't get away with it, he is serving probation, which is perfectly normal for a first time offense of only property damage, and it will be on his record. 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

Your kid isn't a low life criminal, but someone arrested for something and the police and DA don't follow proper protocol.  

The boy in BCS didn't get away with it, he is serving probation, which is perfectly normal for a first time offense of only property damage, and it will be on his record. 

In this case, the kid was a lowlife who smashed the window of a jewelry store, presumably with the intent of stealing from it.  The DA said he had a witness, which means he likely could have made the case even without whatever evidence might have been excluded due to the lack of Miranda rights being read.  It seems like Kim was trying to leverage the fact that the DA knew the police didn't mirandize him before "the first part" of his statement to blackmail him into giving the kid a slap on the wrist, not because the DA couldn't make the case, but because the judge would be angry with the DA over his conduct.

In our warped "justice" system, it might be perfectly fine to give a criminal probation for trying to break into a jewelry store, but IMO, it should bring prison time.  It is often shockingly difficult to get yourself incarcerated these days, though the common, public misconception is that young men are being incarcerated for "no reason".  

[wendyg]

22 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Howard can't believe that Jimmy is being so dense, and he probably believes that Jimmy is simply being cruel, which is why he stops trying to explain and just leaves. 

Oh, no, I read that as one thing only: FEAR OF KIM. His comment that he's already shared too much seems to me to allude to the takedown he experienced.

I bought a prepaid phone in Harrisburg, PA I think in early 2000 or 2001.

[Bannon]

33 minutes ago, sempervivum said:

Are we meant to recognize that the MV contract (or whatever it was) error that caused all the uproar at Kim's office, was something she herself missed when she was supposedly 'checking her assistant's work' the night Jimmy got beat up?

And was there some meaning to the fact that the movie Jimmy chose (which Kim didn't want to watch) was 'Dr. Zhivago'? 

As a more recent viewer, I have to say what is not a news flash to most of you: that it seems clear to me that Jimmy just doesn't have it in him to follow the straight and narrow. He approached his scamming (conning the shady contractor into buying a whole bunch of burner phones; his own street selling, including specially 'dressing the part') as if it were a legitimate JOB to which he was fully committed. Based on his conversation with the probation officer, he's only been at the phone store less than a week; he has already given up on it and moved straight to 'slippin' '-risking not just his probation, but his career and future with Kim-because he's bored. BTW, for all his pains, I doubt that he could have made more than a few hundred $ in profit.

I'm not quite sure about you are saying about Jimmy here, but I want to caution against oversimplifying this character, and thus missing what is most interesting and tragic about his story. Jimmy was willing and able to follow the straight and narrow. He did so for 7 years, toiling away in a mail room job for which he was very intellectually overqualified, while putting himself through law school at night. He did this for two reasons. One, he thought he could obtain the esteem of his older brother by doing so, and two, he thought it would provide a way to have a very substantial professional and intimate relationship with Kim. He would have done anything, absolutely anything, including strictly adhering to an ethical code, to obtain those two goals.

Jimmy's world in Albuquerque began to crumble back into the ethical morass of his Chicago days the moment that reality began to come into focus, that Chuck would never, ever, hold Jimmy in esteem, no matter what Jimmy did. Since that process started, Jimmy's sense of loss and grief, and subsequent anger, has been expanding like a balloon attached to a helium tank, and Chuck's sting operation on Jimmy, followed by Chuck's brutal denial of Jimmy, followed by Chuck's hideous suicide, has stretched that balloon to unimaginable size. Jimmy is being swallowed by an emotional process that he only vaguely grasps, and it is transforming him into something far more brutal than he ever was in Chicago. The impending destruction of his relationship with Kim will burst the balloon, and then things will really get ugly.

Again, this is the saddest t.v. drama I've ever watched, and it takes amazing writing to deliver as much humor as it does, in that context.

12 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

In this case, the kid was a lowlife who smashed the window of a jewelry store, presumably with the intent of stealing from it.  The DA said he had a witness, which means he likely could have made the case even without whatever evidence might have been excluded due to the lack of Miranda rights being read.  It seems like Kim was trying to leverage the fact that the DA knew the police didn't mirandize him before "the first part" of his statement to blackmail him into giving the kid a slap on the wrist, not because the DA couldn't make the case, but because the judge would be angry with the DA over his conduct.

In our warped "justice" system, it might be perfectly fine to give a criminal probation for trying to break into a jewelry store, but IMO, it should bring prison time.  It is often shockingly difficult to get yourself incarcerated these days, though the common, public misconception is that young men are being incarcerated for "no reason".  

I also want to caution against this forum getting too far astray into political debate.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Bannon

[MisterBluxom]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

As I was watching last night, I thought, OMG, if you didn't follow BB how would much of this stuff would make any sense.  Of course, knowing what had transpired and why we were seeing the opening scene added to my amusement.  I cracked up when he called the vacuum cleaner repair.  

...

 

You are so right!

I watched BB from start to finish twice and I loved it! I thought it was one of the very best TV shows ever made. At least somewhere in the Top 3. 

Even so, last night,  I had a very difficult time trying to figure out just how all the pieces of BB and BCS fit together and interacted. It sure was eerie seeing Fring again.

As I said earlier, I never even thought about the underground Meth Lab. I had no idea what was going on with those engineers. Not a clue.

But, I still love all the shows that Vince Gilligan has produced (X-Files, Breaking Bad and  Better Call Saul). The X-Files have not held up for me very well. But the other two and Game of Thrones and Fargo are really my favorite shows. So, I should have been able to follow the timeline like all the rest of you did. Shouldn't I?

It was just so involved, I couldn't manage to follow it all. But I still loved it.

 

P.S.  I really appreciate hearing from people who have worked as lawyers or who have some other experience in the Legal profession. It's great to hear your opinions on the just how realistic some of these negotiations have been. I think it will be great to see how Kim reacts to her current situation and what she chooses to do.

Money does not seem to be her driving interest. I'm not sure what it is. I can't even tell if she:

1) enjoys helping the downtrodden - people who would get really screwed without her help. (I know I'd like that).

2) sticking it to "The Man". (have you seen the film with Jack Black? Oh what was it called? School of Rock. I have a feeling she may enjoy forcing judges to deal fairly with people.

3) Maybe she loves Jimmy and just wants to find a way the two of them can live the rest of their lives (Happily Ever After), I have  no clue. But she has become my favorite character on this show and even though it's silly, I really want to see her wind up happy with whatever she wants - whatever will make her happy.

Edited September 4, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

Better Call Saul Is Looking At The Man In The Mirror

But only indirectly, as Mike brings his tradecraft to project management, Kim rebels, and Jimmy's entrepreneurship takes a hit in our EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of S04.E05.

[SunnyBeBe]

I can't fault Kim. The attorney's job (oath to uphold the Constitution) is to zealously represent the client. It's not my job to judge or decide, but, to do the best I can for them within the confines of the law. I still think that her character is going to feel that this indigent representation is not as fulfilling as she expects.  One of my early mentors used to say, a good case was one in which you got paid for your services. lol  Kim may have seen lean times before, so, maybe, she's up for it.  She is really sharp though.  I wish that she could find her niche and settle in.  

[ShadowFacts]

49 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I'm not quite sure about you are saying about Jimmy here, but I want to caution against oversimplifying this character, and thus missing what is most interesting and tragic about his story. Jimmy was willing and able to follow the straight and narrow. He did so for 7 years, toiling away in a mail room job for which he was very intellectually overqualified, while putting himself through law school at night. He did this for two reasons. One, he thought he could obtain the esteem of his older brother by doing so, and two, he thought it would provide a way to have a very substantial professional and intimate relationship with Kim. He would have done anything, absolutely anything, including strictly adhering to an ethical code, to obtain those two goals.

The thing is, he still has one of those coveted goals, his relationship with Kim, which is on more solid ground than it ever has been.  His being a catalyst in Chuck's downfall and eventual horrible death of course have a huge part in his devolution, but having a very loyal partner in Kim is not enough, apparently, to keep him from slipping fast and hard into crime.  I think he does have an inner pull toward self-destruction, and it doesn't necessarily have to do with lack of love/approval from those he holds in esteem.  I always remember that scene when he was a kid where he seemed to decide he was going to be a wolf rather than a sheep.  Saul has been a long time in the making.  Definitely tragic.

[wendyg]

What crime has he committed, exactly? He bought a bunch of phones and resold them.

[ShadowFacts]

8 minutes ago, wendyg said:

What crime has he committed, exactly? He bought a bunch of phones and resold them.

Engineering the breaking and entering at Neff's copier shop where his accomplice lifted the Hummel, receiving stolen property, fencing it.  Not something anyone should be doing let alone a lawyer on suspension.   Plus he's violating his probation/deferred prosecution by associating with known criminals.  He's going off the rails. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by ShadowFacts

[PeterPirate]

49 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I'm not quite sure about you are saying about Jimmy here, but I want to caution against oversimplifying this character, and thus missing what is most interesting and tragic about his story. Jimmy was willing and able to follow the straight and narrow. He did so for 7 years, toiling away in a mail room job for which he was very intellectually overqualified, while putting himself through law school at night. He did this for two reasons. One, he thought he could obtain the esteem of his older brother by doing so, and two, he thought it would provide a way to have a very substantial professional and intimate relationship with Kim. He would have done anything, absolutely anything, including strictly adhering to an ethical code, to obtain those two goals.

Jimmy's world in Albuquerque began to crumble back into the ethical morass of his Chicago days the moment that reality began to come into focus, that Chuck would never, ever, hold Jimmy in esteem, no matter what Jimmy did. Since that process started, Jimmy's sense of loss and grief, and subsequent anger, has been expanding like a balloon attached to a helium tank, and Chuck's sting operation on Jimmy, followed by Chuck's brutal denial of Jimmy, followed by Chuck's hideous suicide, has stretched that balloon to unimaginable size. Jimmy is being swallowed by an emotional process that he only vaguely grasps, and it is transforming him into something far more brutal than he ever was in Chicago. The impending destruction of his relationship with Kim will burst the balloon, and then things will really get ugly.

Again, this is the saddest t.v. drama I've ever watched, and it takes amazing writing to deliver as much humor as it does, in that context.

I also want to caution against this forum getting too far astray into political debate.

In the first episode of the show, Jimmy tries to extort the Kettlemans into taking him on as a client.  

[SunnyBeBe]

Another thing that I did notice about Kim in this episode was how supportive she was of Jimmy.  I kept thinking, Jimmy knows how great of a partner she is.  Sometimes, it's the little things. Like, being supportive, but, not dogging him about seeing a psychiatrist.  No nagging.  And, not freaking out and scolding him when he came home injured.  I could see how a girlfriend might freak out and insist the police get involved. And, he leaves the house to go on a last minute "thing at work."  Come on.....many people would get a little suspicious. lol She really is tolerant.  I suppose some people would call it enabling.  But, honestly, I'm not sure how Jimmy would react if Kim tried to rule him.  Probably not good. 

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Engineering the breaking and entering at Neff's copier shop where his accomplice lifted the Hummel, receiving stolen property, fencing it.  Not something anyone should be doing let alone a lawyer on suspension. 

Beyond the law breaking, what was notable about this heist was the pointless nature of it. Mr. Printer Business thought the stuff was just crap, and was willing to give it away. Jimmy could have simply accepted the job offer for a week or two, and made up some cockamamie story about a relative liking that sort of "crap", and offered to haul it away. Jimmy then gets to keep all the proceeds. Instead, he engineers a needless b&e, so he can split the money. This tells me that the money is secondary. Jimmy is just breaking rules for the sake of breaking rules. He's become a rage filled nihilist, and the rule breaking is just going to become uglier and uglier. To the point where injury or even murder visited on children doesn't dissuade him from his choice of lifestyle.

14 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

In the first episode of the show, Jimmy tries to extort the Kettlemans into taking him on as a client.  

That's after he has left HHM.

[PeterPirate]

Just now, Bannon said:

Just now, PeterPirate said:

In the first episode of the show, Jimmy tries to extort the Kettlemans into taking him on as a client.  

That's after he has left HHM.

But before he learns of Chuck's betrayal.  In other words, Jimmy on his own is unethical, and only acts ethically when being controlled by Chuck or Kim. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I still have no clue about November 12 at 3PM.

I assume we will eventually see it on the show in Gene's timeline.  So, probably the opening episode of a future season.

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

But before he learns of Chuck's betrayal.  In other words, Jimmy on his own is unethical, and only acts ethically when being controlled by Chuck or Kim. 

Oh, the explicit reveal of the betrayal awaits, but Jimmy reads people very well. It had to subconciously register with him right away that Chuck was not happy to hear of Jimmy pasing the Bar exam. I agree with your larger point that Jimmy outside of Chuck and Kim's daily professional life was unlikely to adhere to an ethical code.

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Tara Ariano said:

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

Better Call Saul Is Looking At The Man In The Mirror

 

In contrast to the recap, I thought the scenes of Mike and the engineers were interesting  useful, and necessary. We can't just have a 007 movie-style hollowed out volcano appear; that's one reason why I've disliked Bond movies, and frankly I kind of disliked how Gus just had a superlab undeneath an industrial laundry, awaiting Walt, in BB. I looked past it at the time, because the BB world was complex enough, and these aren't 26 episode seasons.

This is a show that has Mike and Gus as major characters, prior to meeting Walt. The construction of the superlab has to be part of the story, and if it is going to part of the story, it ought to be done right, giving some sense of how intense a project it was, thus making Mike and Gus tightly connected. I suspect that Nacho will get connected to this as well.