The Women of American Ninja Warrior

[Chaos Theory]

I think there are ALOT of strong females.  I use to think maybe Jesse Graff was the only one who had a real shot of even getting to stage 3 but lately the female pool has gotten ALOT stronger.  I think we need a topic to discuss just them.  If I am wrong please feel free to remove it.  

[fivestone]

Good idea for a topic. I was just thinking today, I get really excited when women "legitimately" qualify for finals or Vegas without needing the benefit of the Top 5/Top 2 women rule. We've seen this season, in some cities, the rule wasn't even needed because many women landed in the top. At this rate, we will probably get to the point that they may gradually phase that rule out in a few years. I think the growth of the ninja scene and women getting a lot of practice on the ninja circuit at competitions during the year is behind the strong showing we are seeing from many female competitors in recent years.

[Chaos Theory]

The Top 5/Top2 rule makes more sense then the random picks which was mostly women that the show use to have.  Most of the random female picks flamed out pretty quickly at least with the Top 2 rule you know they are the top two females from each city that year and not just whoever NBC/ANW likes best.      Yes it is better when they legit make the top fifty? but even if they come in fifty five that is still nothing to be ashamed of.   

[Taeolas]

I think the Top 5/Top 2 rule was a great addition to 'prime the pump' so to speak. It makes sure women make it to Vegas, which gives them a chance to experience the Vegas course and just build confidence. And more women in general across all the stages of the show will encourage more women to show up. I firmly believe we're seeing it pay off this season with 5+ women legit making it to Vegas, and nearly had a case of 3 women making it from a city course. (Philly most recently)

In a few more years, the Top 5/Top2 rule probably be a moot point, because we'll have enough women ninjas naturally making it through the course to make it irrelevant. 

 

I do hope they try to come up with a bit more variety in the course so it isn't so much tarzan swinging upper body obstacles. I know the swings and leaps tend to make for good TV, but let's start seeing more obstacles where legs matter too. Crawls are often good for this, as well as the set of vertical poles (can't recall waht it was, but it was one where a woman did excellent on a few years ago).

[Good Queen Jane]

I have often wondered what kind of course would favor women or anyone whose upper body strength was not the best. I don't favor "dumbing down" a course just to make it easier for women, but this isn't combat or firefighting training where you will be expected to carry a lot of weight as part of your job. I doubt that any woman would have been able to push through the weighted doors on the last obstacle considering how much trouble the few men who made it there had. What course would use the strengths/play on the weaknesses of all body types? ( Well-conditioned ones, of course, not my couch potato one.)

[Morgan of Hed]

Until the last show I thought the last obstacle was kind of a gimme, as everybody was making it through.  Then I saw a couple not make it.  Shoe choice seemed critical.  At any rate, I don't think it's impossible for the women.  That ratchet thing that beat Jessie was tough, but on this one it is mostly leg strength and skill, so I think she could do it.  I think each door is only 50 lbs.

[Chaos Theory]

51 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

I have often wondered what kind of course would favor women or anyone whose upper body strength was not the best. I don't favor "dumbing down" a course just to make it easier for women, but this isn't combat or firefighting training where you will be expected to carry a lot of weight as part of your job. I doubt that any woman would have been able to push through the weighted doors on the last obstacle considering how much trouble the few men who made it there had. What course would use the strengths/play on the weaknesses of all body types? ( Well-conditioned ones, of course, not my couch potato one.)

Some of the men had trouble with “slippage”.    We don’t know if the women could have done it because we havent seen any of them try.  If anything I think the 9th obstacle should be changed to a less “my god the horror” obstacle.  I think Jesse Graff has made it to #9 almost every year since she broke through even the year she was one of two people to get past the wedge but #9 is always a killer.  Make it less Armsy and maybe more jumpy or something that uses all your body.  Then the final climb even with the trap doors is doable.  

Edited August 15, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[AZChristian]

I have the utmost admiration for the women who make it through on their own, rather than as part of a quota system.

Having said, that . . . even in the Olympics, men don't compete against women (and vice versa) because - whether we like it or not - that's just not a fair competition.  Upper body strength, etc., are just different.  If they're going to keep it is a head-to-head competition, there do need to be less "all upper body" elements and more balance or flexibility challenges.

I'm not sure how ANW could separate it into a fairer competition, short of having two courses.  There are no easy or perfect answers.  

[enoughcats]

I've wondered if an obstacle that has a continuous height clearance of 5'4" walking across a ballance beam that has offsets AND no hand holds allowed  would be an equalizer.

The guy who didn't make it up the spider climb had problems with his shoes.  As I watched I wondered if he was too tall to fit.  He seemed to have too long legs to work his body the same way (facing forward)  that the guys who made it, did.  

And a totally unwoke question:  are these the ladies of ANW, are these the women of ANW?  I doubt that they are the girls...there is no female version of the word athletes.....nor do I want one.  But how do the group of female competitors refer to themselves?

[sweetandsour]

I'm not a rope climber, so I don't know what attributes make a person a successful rope climber, never mind a fast one, never mind faster than other people.

But let's say a male and a female competitor make it to level 4 and it's a race to the top like it was with Geoff vs. Isaac.  Is the rope climb an obstacle where a woman's chances of beating a man are "reasonably" fair?  Obviously there are instances where body types can be different (like if it was Jessie vs. 5'1" Tyler Y), possibly favoring the female in some ways (reach, etc.).  But otherwise ... does stage 4, which decides the winner if advanced to, seem predisposed to favor a man?  We're not close to that kind of match-up, but on paper, is that a raw deal for the women?  If so, that sucks for the female competitors because that would basically be like, "you can do so well that you make it past stage 3, which is a spectacular feat, but your odds of actually winning aren't very good if a man also finishes stage 3."

[ClareWalks]

16 minutes ago, sweetandsour said:

But let's say a male and a female competitor make it to level 4 and it's a race to the top like it was with Geoff vs. Isaac.  Is the rope climb an obstacle where a woman's chances of beating a man are "reasonably" fair?  Obviously there are instances where body types can be different (like if it was Jessie vs. 5'1" Tyler Y), possibly favoring the female in some ways (reach, etc.).  But otherwise ... does stage 4, which decides the winner if advanced to, seem predisposed to favor a man?

It is completely in favor of the man. I do a lot of Spartan races and there is always a rope climb. Strong men have the option of simply using their upper body to muscle up the rope. Very few women (they'd have to be exceptionally fit) would be able to do this - they need good rope-climb technique that uses their legs more than their arms. Looking at how Geoff and Isaac tackled that final rope, both of them muscled up the first 30 feet or so before they even started with their legs, and Geoff barely made it to the top in time. I doubt any woman in ANW would be able to clear stage 4's rope in 30 seconds, because it would require too much time to get those legs locked in on every pull, and even a ripped woman would struggle getting as far up rope as those guys with just their arms.

[sweetandsour]

3 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

It is completely in favor of the man. I do a lot of Spartan races and there is always a rope climb. Strong men have the option of simply using their upper body to muscle up the rope. Very few women (they'd have to be exceptionally fit) would be able to do this - they need good rope-climb technique that uses their legs more than their arms. Looking at how Geoff and Isaac tackled that final rope, both of them muscled up the first 30 feet or so before they even started with their legs, and Geoff barely made it to the top in time. I doubt any woman in ANW would be able to clear stage 4's rope in 30 seconds, because it would require too much time to get those legs locked in on every pull, and even a ripped woman would struggle getting as far up rope as those guys with just their arms.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.  And is entirely what I suspected, even if I tried to give the show's design the benefit of the doubt.  I understand that getting to the top of Mount Midoriyama was always a fundamental aspect of Ninja Warrior, but it seems to set the show up for some really unwelcome controversy if a man and woman ever get there together.  Like I realize that (for demonstration purposes) Lance Pekus would be lugging a lot more body weight than Jesse LeBreck, but he still has the upper hand.  Hardcore female gymnasts do drills where they climb ropes with their legs out perpendicular (body forming an L) so it's solely upper body to get up there, but I don't know if they could do 75 feet in the time allotment or beat the men.  Nor could they get to stage 4 in the first place.  Even controlling for height differences, I imagine a man would still take fewer pulls to get up the same height because his upper body strength allows him a bigger reach.  That said, I don't know how the show would implement a more level playing field.  Though I'm sure they're confident it'll take many more seasons to need to, if ever.  They would probably just keep making stage 3 harder to begin with.

[Zuleikha]

 I doubt any woman in ANW would be able to clear stage 4's rope in 30 seconds, because it would require too much time to get those legs locked in on every pull, and even a ripped woman would struggle getting as far up rope as those guys with just their arms.

I'm an aerialist, so I know a lot about climbing rope. :) I rewatched Geoff and Isaac and they are not arm-over-arm climbing for any significant amount of time. They're doing a classic wrapped climb with so-so technique (Geoff's is better than Isaac's, IMHO). Isaac arm-over-armed initially for a bit before getting his legs, but that was because he started with really crappy technique. Arm-over-arm climbs are not particularly efficient. Upper body strength isn't going to give someone a bigger reach because height comes from bringing the legs up anyway (there's no real advantage to pulling up other than for the very first time climb... that is easy for any trained person, so female Ninjas should have no issue with that). But a longer limbs will give someone an advantage for sure.

But I don't think it's an insurmountable issue for women, and certainly not more than anything else in Mount Midoriyama!

It also makes me tempted to race some people to see how fast I am. Maybe I'll try it with my advanced students who I can (mostly) trust not to do anything foolish trying to be fast.

[ClareWalks]

6 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I'm an aerialist, so I know a lot about climbing rope. :) I rewatched Geoff and Isaac and they are not arm-over-arm climbing for any significant amount of time. They're doing a classic wrapped climb with so-so technique (Geoff's is better than Isaac's, IMHO). Isaac arm-over-armed initially for a bit before getting his legs, but that was because he started with really crappy technique. Arm-over-arm climbs are not particularly efficient.

I appreciate your expertise! Arm over arm is indeed not super efficient but it can be quick. And speed is all that matters. They have a 30-second sprint, winner takes all, and there is no stage 5 for them to save anything for. That said, I would love for a woman to prove me wrong that they could climb 75 (or 80) feet of rope in 30 seconds :)

[JenMD]

2017 Ultimate Backyard Warrior had a 100 ft climb.  Barclay won it in 1:41, Jessie came in 2nd in just about 2 min.  I don't know results from this year, I just remembered seeing video from last year's. 

[Chaos Theory]

It looks like we got a lot of the top women this year which is why I kinda like the new rule for the women.  Yes a lot of them are legitimately getting into the top list but even if they just miss it I would rather have someone who has a legitimate shot of at least getting to the spider climb then Kacy Catenzero (and FYI I like her) who has never gotten past the 2nd  obstacle at Vegas.  We have both the women who finished stage one as well as several I think have a real chance.    I am hoping we get at least two women at stage two this year.  

Edited August 21, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Lovecat]

On 8/15/2018 at 7:30 AM, Taeolas said:

I do hope they try to come up with a bit more variety in the course so it isn't so much tarzan swinging upper body obstacles. I know the swings and leaps tend to make for good TV, but let's start seeing more obstacles where legs matter too. Crawls are often good for this, as well as the set of vertical poles (can't recall waht it was, but it was one where a woman did excellent on a few years ago).

 

On 8/15/2018 at 9:24 AM, Good Queen Jane said:

I have often wondered what kind of course would favor women or anyone whose upper body strength was not the best. I don't favor "dumbing down" a course just to make it easier for women, but this isn't combat or firefighting training where you will be expected to carry a lot of weight as part of your job. I doubt that any woman would have been able to push through the weighted doors on the last obstacle considering how much trouble the few men who made it there had. What course would use the strengths/play on the weaknesses of all body types? ( Well-conditioned ones, of course, not my couch potato one.)

 

On 8/15/2018 at 10:16 AM, AZChristian said:

I'm not sure how ANW could separate it into a fairer competition, short of having two courses.  There are no easy or perfect answers.  

As a tiny person with the wingspan of a T-rex, I always frown a little at the obstacles that require reach in addition to strength.  Jumping spider, spider climb, and that one in Stage 3 where they're braced horizontally in between 2 plexiglass waves (can't remember the name of it ATM) come to mind.  Sure there are other obstacles where reach is an advantage, but there are usually other ways to compensate for short arms (pinching between hands and/or legs/feet; jumping transitions; etc).  Those "bracing" obstacles, though, if you don't have enough reach to wedge yourself in, you're screwed.  I mean, my tubby ass ain't doing any ninja training any time soon, but even if I were a tinier version of Jessie Graff, at my height (4'9"), I'd never be able to complete any of those obstacles.  I've always wondered if they would be able to implement an adjustment to the obstacle based on height, like move the walls a couple inches closer to even the playing field just a bit for the shorties :)  

[Chaos Theory]

On 8/15/2018 at 7:30 AM, Taeolas said:

 

I do hope they try to come up with a bit more variety in the course so it isn't so much tarzan swinging upper body obstacles. I know the swings and leaps tend to make for good TV, but let's start seeing more obstacles where legs matter too. Crawls are often good for this, as well as the set of vertical poles (can't recall waht it was, but it was one where a woman did excellent on a few years ago).

Kacy Catanzaro and she is 4’11 and is still the only woman to beat a finals course.  Yes it was several years ago but she managed to jump past her own wingspan during the vertical polls that were five feet apart.   It was quite impressive.     She has never been good that the jumpy hangy obstacles though.  I think hight and weight have less to do with it then the ability to learn from your mistakes and adapt which Kacy could never do but others could.  

Edited August 21, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[enoughcats]

1 hour ago, Lovecat said:

but even if I were a tinier version of Jessie Graff, at my height (4'9"), I'd never be able to complete any of those obstacles.  I've always wondered if they would be able to implement an adjustment to the obstacle based on height, like move the walls a couple inches closer to even the playing field just a bit for the shorties :)  

I think we may see this happen, but not for adults.  After this ANW, there's going to be a competition of youngsters who work with 'mentors' and then compete.  Youngsters are going to be shorter, because they just are.  Maybe they are going to go with age or height classes, but how the obstacles are adjusted for the shorter younger folks will be interesting.

[Lovecat]

52 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Kacy Catanzaro and she is 4’11 and is still the only woman to beat a finals course.  Yes it was several years ago but she managed to jump past her own wingspan during the vertical polls that were five feet apart.   It was quite impressive.     She has never been good that the jumpy hangy obstacles though.  I think hight and weight have less to do with it then the ability to learn from your mistakes and adapt which Kacy could never do but others could.  

For the majority of obstacles, yes, absolutely!  I do like watching the ninjas figure things out mid-obstacle.  There are just a very few where your height and wingspan figure in just as much as your strength.  That Stage 3 obstacle that I can't come up with the name of...[Curved Body Prop!  Thank you, Mr. Google!]...I think the plexiglass walls of that thing are about 6' apart, though I can't verify that anywhere.  Stretched out to my fullest, I *might* be able to get my tippy toes and the very tips of my fingers on the walls.  Kacy's got 2" of height and several more inches of wingspan on me (my arms really are exceedingly short), but I doubt she'd fare better enough to clear the obstacle.  I'll be interested in seeing any modifications they make for the smaller people in the kids' version @enoughcats references above.

[jhlipton]

One obstacle that favors women is one I saw on a Japanese women-only show -- it was called "Domino Hill".  It was a couple of yards of foam blocks, about 2 inches across (as I recall) and varying heights, so they went up and down.  Balance and lower center of gravity certainly helped on that one.

[Taeolas]

I posted this in one of the Vegas Finale threads, but it is more appropriate here.

Basically it summarizes how the women did in the City finals.

The Wiki is up to date with the results of each city

For Dallas, both women were just out of the final 15, but Barclay was only out by about 15 seconds.

For LA, both women were also just out of the final 15. Tiana was out by 1m20seconds or so. 

In Miami, both Jessie and Rachael made it into the Top 15. (Jessie was in the Top 5 of Miami)

In Indianapolis, Labreck made it in the Top 15, Jeri did not.

In Philly, both Allyssa and Michelle made it in the Top 15. 

In Minneapolis, neither women made the Top 15, but Meagan was only about 15 seconds behind the 15th place. 

So 7 out of 12 women did not make their respective city's Top 15, but 2 that missed were really close. 

 

We're at the point where more than half the women are real contenders against the men on the city courses, and with the field getting stronger each year, I suspect we'll start seeing 3+ women making it through the city finals within a few more years, and I'm really looking forward to that. 

[howierules86]

Kacy Catanzaro is my all-time favorite of the ladies.

[Taeolas]

I made this post and comment for the Season 10 results:

On 9/6/2018 at 11:35 AM, Taeolas said:

We're at the point where more than half the women are real contenders against the men on the city courses, and with the field getting stronger each year, I suspect we'll start seeing 3+ women making it through the city finals within a few more years, and I'm really looking forward to that. 

For Season 11, here are the city results. Since the finals are cut back to a Top 12 (or 13 with speed pass), there are two fewer slots to land in to 'naturally' qualify, but I do believe the women have performed admirably this year:

• LA
  • Qualifiers: 2 in the top 30:
    • Ramantha in 23rd, 3 seconds off of the 22nd spot,
    • Rebekah in 25th, 28 seconds after 24th, 4 seconds ahead of 28th. 
  • Finals: Neither made it close to the Top 13 
• Atlanta
  • Qualifiers: One in the Top 30
    • Jessica in 21st made it to Warped Wall 50 seconds ahead of 20th.
    • Alyssa  was the 2nd best woman, was only 2 seconds off of 30th's time so she was probably 31st or 32nd.
  • Finals: Neither woman made it close to the Top 13 (none made it to warped wall)
• Oklahoma City
  • Qualifiers: 4 of the Top 5 women made it into the Top 30
    • All 4 of the Top 5 were in 27-30 slots. 
    • Madelynn's time was 2 seconds slower than 26th spot; the rest were 11-13 seconds after that.
    • The 5th place woman made it to the same spot, but her time was 90 seconds off of the 30th placed person. 
  • Finals
    • Both women made it to the same obstacle as the 12th and 13th placed men.
    • Their times were almost 2 minutes slower than the 13th place man.
• Seattle/Tacoma
  • Qualfiers
    • 2 of the 5 women finished the course.
      • Jessie's time was 8th out of 13 finishers. 5 men did try the megawall and fail but their times would probably have beat her had they succeeded.
      • Sandy's time was the slowest of the finishers and the wall attempers by about 25 seconds.
    • The remaining 3 women ended on the same obstacle as the men did.
      • There times were about 6 to 30 seconds slower than the last placed man.
  • Finals
    • Both women landed solidly in the Top 13.
      • Jessie was one of 3 to reach Northwest passage. her time was a minute slower than Karson's in #2. 
      • Mady reaching Floating Monkey Bars firmly in the middle of the pack, landing her 8th in the Top 12.
• Baltimore
  • Qualifiers
    • Allyssa was the only women to place in the Top 30, 13 seconds slower than the man ahead of her, and 12 seconds slower than the one behind her.
    • 2 more women reached Hazard Cones (where the last 4 top 30 also made). Their times were about 25 and 75 seconds slower than the 30th placer. 
  • Finals
    • All Top 13 flamed out on Angry Birds.
    • Allyssa also made it to Angry Birds, but her time was 2 minutes slower than the 13th placer. 
• Cincinnati: 
  • Qualifiers
    • 4 of the Top 5 women made it into the Top 30. 
    • 2 women finished.
    • The other two women reached slingshot 1 and 2 seconds slower than the 28th placer. 
  • Finals
    • Jesse and Michelle both completed the course for 6 and 7 place.
      • Their finishing times were 40 and 70 seconds slower than Chris's was (in 5th place)

I can't recall, but I think a 3rd woman also made it to Slam Dunk in the Cincinnati finals, but was too slow to beat the 3:56 time for 13th place. 

So out of the 12 women going to Vegas, only the first 4 and Karter in Baltimore could be said to be basically getting wild card passes as they didn't come close to the men on the course.

4 legit made it in without any women's passes; they were in the Top 13 of their finals (two even completed). 

And the remaining 3 were certainly contenders on their courses, even if they didn't get to the Top 13. 

7 out of the 12 women finalists were strong contenders, an improvement over last year. And even the ones who didn't quite get up to those ranks are still showing significant improvement. Two final winners this year; I still believe we'll have a year when 3 or 4 women complete a finals course within the next few years. 

[Aliconehead]

1 hour ago, Taeolas said:

I can't recall, but I think a 3rd woman also made it to Slam Dunk in the Cincinnati finals, but was too slow to beat the 3:56 time for 13th place

Jeri the JAG lawyer made it to Slam Dunk, 

[enoughcats]

At some point, the women need to sit down, strategize, and look at how they can shorten their times.  Heavens help the one who says, stop pausing to wave to your families, friends, dogs and posters (as well as the two dudes who see you) and get on with it. 

The old warning: act like you've been there before needs to be drilled into them. 

And then work with a professional who understands muscle development.  (Football analogy: are you going to be an offensive lineman or a defensive backfield?  Train accordingly.)

[healthnut]

Jeri was 14th, like Sandy would’ve qualified under the previous Top 15 rule.