Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[BizBuzz]

Greetings all!

 

Thinking there might be some conversation that would better fit in the relationship thread rather here in the Bitterness Thread?  What say we take the relationship conversation over to the appropriate thread, thanks!

[wonderwall]

I have a question..... If we're bitter about a relationship... Would that be in the bitterness thread or the relationships thread? 

[kismet]

I have a question..... If we're bitter about a relationship... Would that be in the bitterness thread or the relationships thread? 

This might be a meta statement on the current state of a lot of ARROW from s3 & s4. It's sorta a chicken & the egg question.

[wonderwall]

I feel like if you're bitter, all the bitterness (regardless of what it's about) should be here. And other non-bitter discussions should be in their respective thread.

[Starfish35]

Maybe straight-up bitterness goes here, and debate goes in the Relationship thread?

[BizBuzz]

Let me try to help ... you can be bitter about a relationship, and you can post that bitterness in here, but if it starts going off on relationships, then it needs to be in the relationship thread.  We were starting to get into relationship talk that had nothing to do with bitterness going on in here.  Hope that helps.

[HighwayFlower]

What if we are bitter about being bitter over the relationship?

On a different note, I'm really annoyed that while Nyssa has been locked up, her so called "friend" Laurel didn't do a darn thing to help her. We already know that after just a few months she can take down league members so between her and blood crazy Thea it should have been cake!

So whatever pain/torture Nyssa is going through right now, Laurels fault.

Edited October 22, 2015 by HighwayFlower

[Primal Slayer]

Yeah it makes no sense for Laurel to just forget about Nyssa after everything they've through together. Hate the writers threw that out. And I can't see Sara forgetting about her.

[EmilyBettFan]

I enjoyed so much of this new episode, except all the forced storyline for Laurel. They have nothing to give her so for the third straight year "her" storyline is her sister again

[Genki]

In any other show, a character fail like Laurel's would have been written out. That, with the obvious plot manipulations for her, is what, IMO, makes her even more frustrating, 

Edited October 22, 2015 by Genki

[Sakura12]

We have because comics to thank for not being able to get rid of Laurel. 

[yellowfred]

On a different note, I'm really annoyed that while Nyssa has been locked up, her so called "friend" Laurel didn't do a darn thing to help her. We already know that after just a few months she can take down league members so between her and blood crazy Thea it should have been cake!

 

See, the thing that particularly bothers be about that is that I'm not sure if it's what the writer's intended, but it seems like a lot of Nyssa and Laurel's "friendship" has been based around what works for Laurel.  Like, the first time they really interacted at Sara's grave, Laurel was a complete jerk to Nyssa.  Then, she was slightly nicer to her when she realized that Nyssa wanted to kill Malcolm and Oliver wouldn't (gah, still bitter about that).  Then, a while later, they have this nice scene where they're reminiscing about Sara, because Laurel felt bad about the fact that she couldn't remember Sara's laugh, and it seemed like Nyssa's story made her feel better, but that didn't stop her from attacking Nyssa the moment she saw she was out of her cage (yep, still bitter about that one too).  Then, Nyssa comes back more permanently and starts training Laurel and it seems like they've got a nice friendship going, but then once she's gone, we don't see Laurel worrying about her or mourning her, since she should reasonably think she's dead.  Instead, she's with everyone else worrying about Oliver going dark.  When they show up in Nanda Parbat, we don't see her relieved that Nyssa's alive or thinking about how Nyssa feels about her forced marriage to Oliver (ugh, this one too).  Then, this episode, we have Laurel mad at her for destroying the Lazarus Pit, even though it's mainly to spite Malcolm and doesn't affect Sara's resurrection in the least.  It kind of gives the impression that that relationship was more convenient for Laurel than it was meaningful.

 

On a related side note, as I wrote that paragraph, I was reminded of how bitter I am about the way the writers have been treating Nyssa since last season.  I would really like for her to go one entire episode without being tied up, caged, or otherwise imprisoned.

Edited October 23, 2015 by yellowfred

[Primal Slayer]

Laurel was right in being a jerk to Nyssa upon their first real face2face , but as she got to know her, she saw a different side of her. But I am already hating that Nyssa will most likely be an after thought by everyone after 2x03.

 

After reading MGs tumblr, it just made me more bitter towards the people who run this show. I just had to roll my eyes at almost every question.

[kismet]

I'm watching s3 over again, I know bad mistake.

 

But it makes me bitter that they chose to make MM behind the killing of SL. It would have been so much better to have had Ras be behind like was suggested or hinted in earlier episodes. It really twisted the show in the worst way to make MM more relevant.

 

And now when it would have been more relevant and timely for MM to be behind SL resurrection they are instead bringing her back in the worst way via LL's trip to crazytown.

 

I do love JB and the potential of MM, but they are making it challenging for me to not want him to get off the show. I don't know what their plan is with him, but so far I'm not sure they have a clue which concerns me considering I don't see JB/MM going anywhere/anytime soon.

[yellowfred]

But it makes me bitter that they chose to make MM behind the killing of SL. It would have been so much better to have had Ras be behind like was suggested or hinted in earlier episodes. It really twisted the show in the worst way to make MM more relevant.

 

Agreed.  Especially since they wanted to go with the idea that Malcolm was the lesser of two evils, having him be the one behind Sara's death (and having him as the one who involved Thea, just to make it worse) was probably the worst way they could have gone.  Malcolm could still have been useful to the team because of his knowledge of the League and most of the team could still be pissed about it because of the Undertaking.  The only real difference would be that I, as a member of the audience, could believe for five seconds that Malcolm actually does care about Thea, in his own way, and that Oliver wasn't being a complete idiot for trusting him.

 

On a related side note, I will never find Oliver's whole bit about "just because I'm giving you control of a powerful group of assassins and an eternal-life-giving hot tub doesn't mean I like you" anything short of hilarious (and stupid).

[Genki]

I'm still bitter they didn't provide a decent in story reason for Malcolm to want to kill Sara.

 

He was in Corto Maltese and flew to Starling City so Sara could threaten him??? Then while Sara was still in Starling her flew back and brainwashed Thea and went back to Starling, or he brought her with him the first time already brain washed...GAH!!!!!!! As far as I can tell if he had just stayed away Sara was not a threat.

[loki567]

Finally caught episode three and good lord, I hate Malcolm. And it's not the good type of hate for a fictional character where I want to see him beaten, it's the bad type of hate where it takes me out of the show and take a hard look at the producers/writers that they won't let go of this dildo. The only other character I can think that stirs up similar feelings of loathing is Ramsay Bolton. 

 

I know Barrowman has his fans and he seems like a swell guy in real life but I don't see the appeal at all. I'm almost starting to resent him simply because his relationship to the cast and crew is likely the reason this character has been kept around long after his shelf life. 

 

Malcolm has done an untold amount of damage to Arrow as the writers have to increasingly write themselves around in circles to keep him vaguely connected to the plot and we have to keep going back to the awful LoS-story. Hell, I like Nyssa but if it meant this show would drop any and all LoS-scenes, I'd be alright with killing her off. 

[kismet]

Just finished my rewatch / quasi-marathon of s3 and I have to say a lot of my bitterness for the season remain. They were bits & pieces that I could see how they would have fit together to be an awesome story. But a LOT of the execution was bad or the stupid was just too much. Some episodes definitely held up better than others and some episodes surprised me on rewatch that I liked them more than I remember. I was also surprised how some stories fell apart on rewatch like the finale. The euphoria of May must have clouded my memory, because I remember loving that episode. But on rewatch I actually found it to be a weaker overall narrative with inconsistent characterizations (give or take a few stellar scenes).

 

The major thing that I think caused the most damage to story & characters were the writers having no definitive plan for MM or Ras. I feel like they started the season with an idea of what to do with them and then changed it a couple times mid-course. It really contributed to the disjointed feeling of the season. It also forced the writers to write dumb prophecies or character lines to undue what they had just set-up a few episodes prior. I really think the only reason QL had his major turn that then resulted in RH needing to leave was because the writers had to find someway to make the Ras/LoA story happen. I feel like had they just let OQ sacrifice himself to the NP mission earlier, the 2nd part of 3b would have been a far stronger story than what they gave us. I also feel that if they had MM master manipulating this all from the beginning it would have made a stronger story, but I really do not think that was an idea until midway through s3a (if not right before the winter finale). Don't get me wrong, everything is his fault ~ I just don't think that is the plan the writers initially set-out with.

 

Overall, the season was not as bad as I remembered it. But it definitely did not improve or get more refined once I returned to it. For me it was like a TV dinner. It got the job done, there were a few good options to choose from, but too much are not good for your health in the long run. Just like too many of these episodes were more bad than good. There were also moments of nostalgia that hit me, but the moments did not sustain me hours later. (Ok, well some did 320, I'm looking at u).

[tv echo]

This is pure speculation, but I think the EPs' original plan for S3 was to kill off Sara permanently, use the LP to heal Oliver's near-mortal sword wound, and when Oliver made Malcolm the new Ra's, have Nyssa destroy the LP in anger at the end of S3. But after the unexpectedly strong fan backlash over Sara's death and the tepid response to the introduction of Ray Palmer, they decided to bring Sara back and build the spinoff around her (and Ray). So the LP resurrection/destruction was delayed to S4 and used for Sara.  Instead, in S3, Oliver was healed using "magic herbs" - and the rest of the S3 storyline was quickly revised.

 

Now some bitterness.  So I guess it's okay for an Arrow episode to focus on a personal relationship between Oliver and another character - a relationship that's full of angst and drama, and to have several scenes that are emotional, including one where the character breaks down and cries... so long as that relationship is paternal, fraternal, familial or platonic (anything but romantic).

Edited October 31, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

This is pure speculation, but I think the EPs' original plan for S3 was to kill off Sara permanently, use the LP to heal Oliver's near-mortal sword wound, and when Oliver made Malcolm the new Ra's, have Nyssa destroy the LP in anger at the end of S3. But after the unexpectedly strong fan backlash over Sara's death and the tepid response to the introduction of Ray Palmer, they decided to bring Sara back and build the spinoff around her (and Ray). So the LP resurrection/destruction was delayed to S4 and used for Sara.  Instead, in S3, Oliver was healed using "magic herbs" - and the rest of the S3 storyline was quickly revised.

I can agree with your speculation. There does seem to be a tonal shift in how MM & Ras were being written around the same time the BTS rumblings of RP based spin-off not being a big hit. ENTER the Berlanti spin team and we have a whole new story to sell. Hence the turn around and scrambling to rewrite all the character arcs. I think MM was always destined to be the new Ras, I think they would have had him manipulate things differently.

 

I also wonder if Tatsu was going to be Maseo's big death and that was going to parallel OQ/FS. Maseo losing Tatsu would have given credence to OQ's belief that he can't be in a relationship and do the work he needs to do as the Arrow. I also wonder then if Akio would have been used to somehow free Maseo & OQ. Thea perhaps would have been paralleled by Akio to bringing OQ back, not the reason OQ is forced to join.

 

I do wonder if they would have done the romantic beats differently for F/R if OQ was not in SC for 3b. I'm not sure I would have liked the difference, but I wonder if it would have seemed like a more organic relationship rather than OQ does something stupid, FS turns to RP. Every major F/R came as a direct result of OQ. I also wonder if they would have made RP less of a jerk.

 

Part of me really wishes to see what that season would have looked like.

 

 

Now some bitterness.  So I guess it's okay for an Arrow episode to focus on a personal relationship between Oliver and another character - a relationship that's full of angst and drama, and to have several scenes that are emotional, including one where the character breaks down and cries... so long as that relationship is paternal, fraternal, familial or platonic (anything but romantic).

I don't understand this, could you elaborate more?

[tv echo]

I guess I've been reading too many reviews of superhero shows (including Arrow).  Initially I thought that episodes that were light on action/stunts and heavy on personal drama were complained about.  Now, however - esp. after reading reviews about the latest Arrow episode focusing on Quentin - I believe that only romantic drama is the thing causes complaints. "Beyond Redemption" had several emotion-laden scenes, including a teary scene where Quentin breaks down. Yet, while reviewers were mixed as to whether this was the best or the worst episode of S4, they universally loved the Quentin story.  If the episode had focused on the relationship between Oliver and Felicity, there would've been complaints of too much romantic melodrama and get back to the action.  Anyway, I've noticed that it's only the superhero's romantic relationship that gets flak, but that it's fine if the focus is on the hero's relationship with his parent or paternal figure, his mentor, his sibling, his best friend, etc.

 

The latest AoS episode featuring Simmons did involve use of the hot guy on alien planet cliche and there's been lots of flak about that. (Since it's a Whedon show, I have my suspicions that things are not what they seem.)  I've even read some stuff about The Flash being better than Arrow because it's backed off of the Barry-Iris romance, plus kudos to Barry's relationships with his real father and his father figure Joe.

 

I have yet to see anything original on any TV show - they all use cliches and tropes.  It's all a question of how well they execute it. Love is part of life. To make a superhero asexual, or to have a superhero develop deep relationships with everyone in his life except a romantic partner, is ridiculous. Love is often messy - hence, unrequited love, the dreaded love triangle, etc.  It's all how the show handles it.

 

Yes, I may be overreacting or overgeneralizing - but this is the bitterness thread and I'm going by my gut reaction.  It just seems to me that as soon as a hint of romance (or sex, for that matter) enters the plot of a superhero show, there's this immediate reaction of 'oh no, it's like a CW romantic melodrama!'  But the show can spend tons of time on the hero's relationships with his father or best friend, and it's all good.

Edited November 1, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

Honestly? I totally agree that it happens exactly like you're telling it, but I see all of that as blatant sexism.

Most reviewers of superhero shows are heterosexual and male. Romance -- not only in superhero shows, but in every type of entertainment media -- is treated as something that caters to women first and foremost. "Chick lit", "chick flick", our culture even makes a point of labeling it all in a derogatory way that implies, "eww, girl cooties".

And in particular to superhero shows? Romance is also criticized because "it doesn't belong" to a genre [is superhero even a genre?] that heterosexual men have seen as belonging exclusively to them for about a century.

Edited November 1, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Sakura12]

It's the not the romance that bothers me it's all the pointless drama that they feel the need to include in the romance. Triangles, ship blocks, breaking up to protect the other. If they would just write the ships as a real couple I'm fine with them. If they fight, it can be stupid couple fights then move onto the actual plot. In the leaked episode that is what they did and I enjoyed it.

 

I'm not a shipper and don't care who anyone hooks up with. Like any story line, I want to enjoy the story not be pissed about how it's handled. 

Edited November 1, 2015 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

It's the not the romance that bothers me it's all the pointless drama that they feel the need to include in the romance.

But they don't just do that with romance. Arrow uses secrets to create pointless drama in pretty much every kind of relationship ever. Siblings, parents and children, friends, etc. But generally, it's the romantic beats that are demonized the most.

 

And It's perfectly okay to not like romance. I don't like all romance. But I do think that this idea that relationships should be ostracized to the background, affecting story as little as possible, is part of a culture that treats romance as "less" than other kinds of stories. And this is something that happens in criticism of superhero shows A LOT, and that doesn't happen in a vacuum.

[Cerulean Blue]

It's the not the romance that bothers me it's all the pointless drama that they feel the need to include in the romance. Triangles, ship blocks, breaking up to protect the other. If they would just write the ships as a real couple I'm fine with them. If they fight, it can be stupid couple fights then move onto the actual plot. 

But "actual plot" can be romance-related. I think it's frustrating when other relationships can have basically those same storylines (parent leaves to protect their child, a new parental figure enters the picture and causes drama, etc.) and suddenly it's no longer "pointless," but it has meaning. Take those same storylines and make them about a romantic relationship and suddenly they're less important and they're annoying and they should be reduced to nothing more than background.

 

It's fine not to like romance as a storyline, but it's not inherently pointless or less interesting than action to all viewers. And there's definitely a tradition of misogyny in shows with heavily "masculine" storylines and tropes (such as superhero shows) dismissing romance as lesser and childish and unimportant. 

[Password]

I've even read some stuff about The Flash being better than Arrow because it's backed off of the Barry-Iris romance, plus kudos to Barry's relationships with his real father and his father figure Joe.

That's so ironic because I think The Flash is doing really poorly with romance this season too (didn't care for season 1 because I liked Eddie). I find the lack of Barry-Iris as best friends scenes a bit jarring.

I'm not sure why people dismiss romance in superhero shows because there tends to be a girl the hero pines for/gets in the end. Do we not read comics or?

Edited November 1, 2015 by Password

[Sakura12]

The secret keeping from anyone is pointless to me it doesn't matter if it family, friends or significant other. Pointless drama is pointless drama. Case in point shippers getting mad at triangles or ship blocks or really anything stupid that keeps the ship apart. I hear that complaint almost as much as people complaining about romance in general. 

 

For me and I'm not trying to offend (being that I was one not long ago), it's how vocal the shippers are online that can be annoying to other viewers. I don't care either way, but I know some people do. I knew us non-shippers can be vocal too but it's hard to compete against the vast majority (online at least). 

 

Just to be clear I don't care if there is romance in any show, it should be there that is a big part of life. 

Edited November 1, 2015 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

Well, we weren't talking about fandom, we were talking about professional reviewers dismissing romance in superhero genre, and there are reasons for that. How fandom reacts to superhero romance is an entirely other beast that I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to be talking about.

Edited November 1, 2015 by dtissagirl

[kismet]

I totally get what you guys are saying about romance in superhero shows and you guys have eloquently laid out points similar to my points. The only thing I will add is, ARROW being on the CW lends itself to more comparison & criticism as a melodrama because of the reputation of the network as having soapy melodramas. If ARROW was on another network, I wonder if it would encounter less criticism on the romantic angle.

 

Thanks @TvEcho for elaborating on what you meant. I understand and agree with your viewpoints, I just missed the transition in your initial post.

 

Taking the rest of it to the relationship thread :)

[Sakura12]

That depends on how you describe a "Professional" reviewer. I honestly don't think their are many of those left. 

[tarotx]

I feel like the professional reviewers will ignore Laurel now until she's bad again. That's what this show does with her. They see she's being ignored so they do the stupid with her so she gets negative press and then redeems so she gets a patch of positive. But then the show doesn't do anything with her character so she will get ignored until the stupid happens again. I hope this run is different. Laurel needs to be fixed, integrated into the show and for them to keep that going. Or she should be moved to other show. 

 

I just want characters acting like themselves or growing as they bond or deal with conflict. Family is who we are with because they are blood so drama is expected. Friends and lovers are people we are with by choice. It's a different ball game. I want people who choose to be together to actually like being together. Superheros shows are also work based shows so these people also have that kind of forced being together. I can deal with it to a degree. Like with Diggle and Olliver. 3 episodes wasn't too much and even having on going issues if they are dealt with and not ignored so lingers. Now the Diggle ignoring Felicity vibe was felt and stupid not to be explained. It felt wrong. Felicity and Diggle not interacting is the one big draw back for season 4. [Also the stupid not done well "big" stunts and the making Oliver not as good a fighter. Which can be fan wonked that he doesn't see himself as a fighter as much. But we really know it's because they have to deal with 4 fighters who only Speedy is a sidekick though she's more trained than Laurel so she also can't be a side kick].

 

Imo the problem with season 3 Olicity is they were given this big exes drama arc but they were barely even dating. It was forced. And all that angst was just to keep a "growing closer" couple apart. It was the forced I Hate. I just felt they were forcing Felicity into beats that were made for if Laurel was the girl Oliver couldn't be with for reasons. It felt unnatural for the dynamics Olicity had throughout their history. They always air things out but come to understand each others pov. This couple needed to be a couple before breaking up and Angst. This season it feels right and it's not dragging the show down because they are natural. I feel they will deal with their issues in one or a few episodes. They won't keep them lingering. It's nice. I don't ship but I like to enjoy the couples and friendship on tv.

 

Oliver and Laurel needs to find a friendship or Laurel has to leave the show. It's just not fun having people who have such a negative vibe interact. In real life I think Laurel would have moved to Central city (like her mom did) or else where to get a clear energy. But KC is the leading actress on the show so she's going no where so I just don't want to be depressed every time she's on the screen. Fingers crossed this time it works.

I think 4.5 is the best try at redeeming Laurel&Oliver as friends so I have a little bit a hope.

I love Sara and used to love Quenton but while never a Laurel hater I think she is the shows weakest link and needs overhauling so fingers crossed that it works this time. I hate negativity for the sake of negativity or from a poor acting choice(KC in the Elevator 4.4). Angst for Angst sake is bad enough.

Edited November 2, 2015 by tarotx

[Starfish35]

I'm really bitter about the whole "Sara was only Canary, not Black Canary" thing. I typed up an answer to someone on TVLine this morning, and then deleted it before posting because I didn't feel like having the argument. But I'm still bitter. I know what the EPs have said. And I know she was never called Black Canary on the show.

But.

She wore a Black Canary outfit. She used Canary Cry bombs/grenades. She had the associations with the Clocktower and Sin. She had the motorcycle. She had the badass skills. Who didn't see her on the screen when she showed up and think "it's Black Canary!"

I guess it just still makes me bitter that they gave Sara everything about being the Black Canary except the name, and yet, whoever we call her the Black Canary, even the first Black Canary, it's always "oh no, she was just the Canary, not the Black Canary." It's just really really stupid in my opinion. She was the Black Canary in all but name. Pretending anything else is just splitting hairs.

[Guest]

I'm really bitter about the whole "Sara was only Canary, not Black Canary" thing. I typed up an answer to someone on TVLine this morning, and then deleted it before posting because I didn't feel like having the argument. But I'm still bitter. I know what the EPs have said. And I know she was never called Black Canary on the show.

But.

She wore a Black Canary outfit. She used Canary Cry bombs/grenades. She had the associations with the Clocktower and Sin. She had the motorcycle. She had the badass skills. Who didn't see her on the screen when she showed up and think "it's Black Canary!"

I guess it just still makes me bitter that they gave Sara everything about being the Black Canary except the name, and yet, whoever we call her the Black Canary, even the first Black Canary, it's always "oh no, she was just the Canary, not the Black Canary." It's just really really stupid in my opinion. She was the Black Canary in all but name. Pretending anything else is just splitting hairs.

 

THIS.

 

I actually have a question about this. I know at some point in the comics there were two Canaries, one of which was Dinah's mom.  But wasn't she also called the Black Canary? And if so, why can't Sara also be called BC? Like, why is it such a huge deal that Laurel is distinguished as THE BC when Sara had basically everything that comic BC had? I just don't get it. It's ridiculous and kind of pathetic to me.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Guest

[kismet]

I'm gonna guess the delineation might be contractual :)

[loki567]

Totally agree with your post, tarotx. I always thought that's where the writing does Laurel and KC wrong, basically all of Laurel's scenes are of the dark and angsty-variety and really, how can an audience warm to a character who's basically slogging her way through a miserable existence? Even if they thought that killing Sara was absolutely necessary, I thought it would have been better to do it a few episodes into season three and spend that time building up the Sara/Laurel dynamic into a nice positive relationship. Give the audience some moments where they can LIKE Laurel and give a stronger reason for her to take on the BC mantle when Sara dies. 

[AyChihuahua]

Totally agree with your post, tarotx. I always thought that's where the writing does Laurel and KC wrong, basically all of Laurel's scenes are of the dark and angsty-variety and really, how can an audience warm to a character who's basically slogging her way through a miserable existence? Even if they thought that killing Sara was absolutely necessary, I thought it would have been better to do it a few episodes into season three and spend that time building up the Sara/Laurel dynamic into a nice positive relationship. Give the audience some moments where they can LIKE Laurel and give a stronger reason for her to take on the BC mantle when Sara dies. 

Even when the scenes are not dark or angsty, KC plays them angry.  I don't understand it, at all, but that is consistently how she has played otherwise neutral scenes.  

[Sakura12]

It also doesn't help when the Chief Creative Officer of DC Comics calls Sara the Black Canary and she's called the Black Canary in the media. It's only when Laurel fans say something about to the EP's say Sara was only The Canary. 

 

To me she was called Canary and her outfit was black that equals Black Canary. That's not even including everything else she had that belonged to Black Canary. Sin, The Clocktower base and 

 

 

a list pulled from Comicvine.com

 

Agility

Attractive Female
Escape Artist
Flight
Gadgets
Intellect
Leadership
Marksmanship
Power Suit
Sonic Scream
Stamina
Stealth
Swordsmanship
Tracking
Unarmed Combat
Voice-induced Manipulation
Weapon Master

 

Sara fits all of those. 

 

The Black in Laurel's name means nothing and she was called that as an insult by her father. I have no idea why she'd add to that to her name in the first place after that. (besides because comics)

Edited November 2, 2015 by Sakura12

[lemotomato]

When I think about the awesome Arrow/Canary fight in 2x04 (that weapons switch!) and the three-way sparring in 2x14 (when we could actually see the actors doing the stunt), and compare them to the action scenes we've seen this season with the supposedly full-fledged, "no more learning curve" BC, I get really bitter. One Canary met the standard and even elevated the fighting sequences, and the other requires the superior fighters to get nerfed just so she doesn't look like such a failure. SA mentioned at DragonCon that the show hasn't had an Oliver/Laurel sparring scene yet and that they should film one; I cringe just imagining how they would try to pull it off. 

[kismet]

When I think about the awesome Arrow/Canary fight in 2x04 (that weapons switch!) and the three-way sparring in 2x14 (when we could actually see the actors doing the stunt), and compare them to the action scenes we've seen this season with the supposedly full-fledged, "no more learning curve" BC, I get really bitter. One Canary met the standard and even elevated the fighting sequences, and the other requires the superior fighters to get nerfed just so she doesn't look like such a failure. SA mentioned at DragonCon that the show hasn't had an Oliver/Laurel sparring scene yet and that they should film one; I cringe just imagining how they would try to pull it off. 

Bitter about losing that dynamic too.

 

Did SA really say that? I wonder if that wasn't just a little passive-aggressive of him to prove how good he is and how good CL was in the role.

[lemotomato]

Bitter about losing that dynamic too.

 

Did SA really say that? I wonder if that wasn't just a little passive-aggressive of him to prove how good he is and how good CL was in the role.

He seemed genuine. It was at one of the joint panels with KC. I don't remember the context of his comment, but I figured he was trying to be inclusive and supportive of KC's more action-y role this season.

[Chaser]

I think a sparring scene with Oliver and Laurel would be interesting directing. 

 

KC has no coordination. It's been on display a bit on the show (the boxing ring, punching the dude at the press conference), but watch the Blank Space lip sync video. There is 'I-can't-dance' and there is 'I-have-no-idea-how-to-use-my-body.' SA can't dance, but he has posted videos of stunt fighting. The man can move. I find it interesting she has never posted a video of her practicing fighting. It's all lifting weights and selfies. I don't think we will ever get a scene like Oliver/Sara with Oliver and Laurel. They would have to work the stunt double in if they want it on par with SA and CL.

[pootlus]

SA mentioned at DragonCon that the show hasn't had an Oliver/Laurel sparring scene yet and that they should film one; I cringe just imagining how they would try to pull it off. 

 

With Laurel's back to the camera constantly, I imagine.

[Sakura12]

I imagine it will be like the

Oliver/Thea sparing we get in 4x05. The camera was on Thea's back most of the time with one quick shot of her blocking then posing at the end. SA's face was shown the whole time.

.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Sakura12

[EmilyBettFan]

That really must irk him. I mean it irks me and I'm not even involved in the show. I want his real feelings on this subject which can we will never get. It must have felt like old times with him working with Caity Lotz and not a stunt person all the time.

I know not everyone can be Stephen Amell or Caity Lotz but, if you're going to be spouting off about how great you are and always posting selfies of yourself, you might as well just post selfies of the stunt person because they are doing most of the work.

[Genki]

Thinking about season 3 [Thanks to Kismet's comment in the FS thread] I realised a Season 3 re-watch is off-limits to me, at least until we get pass the LOT set-up hurdle, it will just bring back negativity.

 

Even then I only really  would watch 3.01 (minus last minute), 3.05, 3.08 (Flash 1.08), 3.09, 3.10, 3.16, 3.20, 3.23 (maybe 3.19 - only long after RP is shrunk off to LOT).

 

I feel like the writers are still trying to launch Ray off Felicity's back. Not at the expense of Oliver/Felicity thankfully, but still using her accessibility as a character to inform the audience of the appropriate reaction to him...no thanks!! He is still a sexist, arrogant, credit stealing, stalking, crazy-eyed weirdo to me. If they acknowledge some of this in-script and not just lampshade it, he may become tolerable, in time, to me.

I know I won't be watching. I just can't stand them trying to endear Laurel to us. She is useless and has been since the beginning. The whole episode is ridiculous in the way they have these two characters (Laurel and Thea) always using the word judgmental against Oliver. They surely have a lot of nerve with the way they portray these characters. He has saved their lives countless times and they are just rude. I will never like LL.

 

Laurel has gotten away with too much as a character and is way too hypocritical for her to be redeemed with me. I wish they writer would give up trying.

[kismet]

@genki I don't recommend a rewatch. It was due at thw library so I had to finish it. I initially just got it for the bonus features. But thought, what's the worst that could happen if I watch all 23 episodes again? Bad things.

It's open my eyes to things I didn't see before. Things I had forgotten and things I wish I could unsee. There were a few amazing moments I got to see again or better appreciated their intricacy or importance on further examination. And i did gain insight though, so I can't say it was a complete waste. But it is causing me to tailspin a little. I apologize.

[looptab]

What the show is really missing is not an Oliver/Laurel sparring session, but an OLiver/Diggle one. THOSE are sorely missed. It's been a while.

[dtissagirl]

Even then I only really  would watch 3.01 (minus last minute), 3.05, 3.08 (Flash 1.08), 3.09, 3.10, 3.16, 3.20, 3.23 (maybe 3.19 - only long after RP is shrunk off to LOT).

 

If it means anything, I did this exact rewatch right after the season ended -- these very episodes you listed -- and it worked for me much better than the entire season.

[tv echo]

Arrow and the CW get dissed even in a media review of AoS...

That said, I do agree with Jim in the sense that it comes across almost a little ridiculous that Jemma gets sucked through a portal to an unknown desolate world and somehow finds a love interest. Fans of Arrow on The CW may know what I'm talking about: Oliver Queen gets marooned on an island, yet still manages to find no fewer than three separate love interests there!

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Round Table: Alien World Hook Up
Loader Henry A. Otero at October 30, 2015 3:30 pm

http://www.tvfanatic.com/2015/10/agents-of-shield-round-table-alien-world-hook-up/

Edited November 2, 2015 by tv echo

[Password]

*snort*

It's not untrue.