Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[tv echo]

I agree that the best couples bring out the best in each other and make each other better people.  The problem with the pre-island Oliver/Laurel relationship is, I felt, that they were using each other and not truly in love.  Oliver got a steady girlfriend/acceptable escort who ignored his infidelities.  Laurel got a rich boyfriend/fantasy of perfect life.  It was a selfish thing - all about what the other person could do for him/her.  IMO, Oliver staring at Laurel's picture in his early days on the island was more about wanting to get back the carefree, cushy life he had before - it was symbolic.  It could just as easily have been a pic of his family.

 

 

I love that Tumblr meme that Nightwing should come to Starling and charm the pants off Felicity. It doesn't even have to be Dick Grayson exactly, but if Felicity got a BF, and then Team Arrow suspected he was evil only to turn out he's actually a fellow vigilante? I'd like that.

 

I like the idea that Felicity gets involved with someone else who she thinks is a normal nice guy and he turns out to be another vigilante hero.

 

I like the slowly deepening friendship and trust between Oliver and Felicity.  I don't think they should hook up anytime soon.  Oliver is still too emotionally messed up and can't maintain a mature relationship (yet).  Felicity is also not ready to be with someone like Oliver (yet).  I think she needs to toughen up more.

Edited June 5, 2014 by tv echo

[FAU]

 

I agree that the best couples bring out the best in each other and make each other better people.  The problem with the pre-island Oliver/Laurel relationship is, I felt, that they were using each other and not truly in love.  Oliver got a steady girlfriend/acceptable escort who ignored his infidelities.  Laurel got a rich boyfriend/fantasy of perfect life.  It was a selfish thing - all about what the other person could do for him/her.  IMO, Oliver staring at Laurel's picture in his early days on the island was more about wanting to get back the carefree, cushy life he had before - it was symbolic.  It could just as easily have been a pic of his family.

 

The problem with Oliver and Laurel is that it's based on Laurel's delusions of their 'perfect' relationship, it's very shallow in that sense while he's cheating with her sister and other girls behind her back as well as getting 1 of them knocked up, all while saying nonsense that she 'knows him better than anyone else' and the show portrays the exact opposite of that.

[writersblock51]

 

The problem with Oliver and Laurel is that it's based on Laurel's delusions of their 'perfect' relationship, it's very shallow in that sense while he's cheating with her sister and other girls behind her back as well as getting 1 of them knocked up, all while saying nonsense that she 'knows him better than anyone else' and the show portrays the exact opposite of that.

 

This is the crux of the ongoing disconnect between Oliver and Laurel (at any time frame we've seen) and also KC and her take on Laurel.

 

I love that Tumblr meme that Nightwing should come to Starling and charm the pants off Felicity. It doesn't even have to be Dick Grayson exactly, but if Felicity got a BF, and then Team Arrow suspected he was evil only to turn out he's actually a fellow vigilante? I'd like that.

 

That's an idea that I could see happening on this show.  It's a bit cliche but the whole show is a cliche, so why not?

[statsgirl]

 

  he problem with the pre-island Oliver/Laurel relationship is, I felt, that they were using each other and not truly in love.  Oliver got a steady girlfriend/acceptable escort who ignored his infidelities.  Laurel got a rich boyfriend/fantasy of perfect life.

I can see this as a parellel of Robert and Moira's marriage, which explains why Oliver was okay with it.  Even on the Queen's Gambit, Robert was more concerned with the fall-out of the cheating with Sara rather than the cheating itself.  But what's Laurel's reason? She came from a truly happy marriage.

 

 

IMO, Oliver staring at Laurel's picture in his early days on the island was more about wanting to get back the carefree, cushy life he had before - it was symbolic.  It could just as easily have been a pic of his family.

And the picture gazing gets dropped as soon as he starts sleeping with Shado.

 

 

I like the idea that Felicity gets involved with someone else who she thinks is a normal nice guy and he turns out to be another vigilante hero.

LOL, Felicity has a type.

[Starfish35]

I was reading the Identity episode thread and it reminded me of something I'd forgotten about that was never followed up on. Remember Roy stealing stuff from Verdant and Thea thinking her suppliers were shorting her? Whatever happened with that?

[BunsenBurner]

He was using it to buy information for Arrow

[Starfish35]

Yeah but it was set up as something that would end up having more long term consequences, and then was just dropped. I just feel like it's another example of how poorly planned this season was.

[Password]

The writers really know how to make Laurel look like a fool.

[statsgirl]

The difference is that in episode 10, she thought that Oliver was a rich do-nothing playboy. In episode 21, she knew he was a hero.  

 

She's always all Team Oliver! when she thinks he's a good guy, and always acting superior to him when she doesn't.

 

And this is a character we are supposed to be rooting for.

Edited June 6, 2014 by statsgirl

[writersblock51]

She's always all Team Oliver! when she thinks he's a good guy, and always acting superior to him when she doesn't.

 

Not unlike how she feels about Sara...

 

I stopped rooting for Laurel a loooooooooooooooooong time ago.

[quarks]

In episode 4, Laurel assures us that Oliver (as Oliver Queen) doesn't care about other people, and maybe he should try it sometime. She also assures us that the Hood is All Lonely and Stuff and Has Now Convinced Her That the Law Can't Do Everything, while ending the episode telling us that the Hood is a killer and she's seen that in his eyes.

 

The romance, it is convincing! Though at this point, she's right about the killer part, and I do have to give her credit for being brave enough to come forward and stop the Hood from killing that one guy. One of Laurel's better moments in an episode not filled with good Laurel moments.

[statsgirl]

I think that opening scene would have killed any desire to have Laurel and Oliver get together, if I had had any left by that time. He was suffering and she was only interested in hammering him that she's such a better person than he is.  For her, it's always All About Laurel and how she sees herself compared to other people, never how the other person actually is.

[Danny Franks]

I'm binge rewatching season 2 and I just had to point this dialogue contrast out. We all know Laurel knows nothing about Oliver. Laurel even makes a point to tell him she doesn't know him. Within 11 episodes though she somehow knows him better than anyone! Wow!

 

Episode 10: "Sometimes I feel like I don't know the real Sebastian. He reminds me a little of you that way."

Episode 21: "I know you. I know you like I know my own name. [...] I know who you are in your bones, Oliver."

 

Laurel's speech in episode 21 annoyed me when I first watched it and I had forgotten about that line in episode 10. Now that I've rewatched I'm even more annoyed by it.

 

Well.... That is an unfortunate juxtaposition. And it really sums up the writing for Laurel so perfectly. She's just whatever the episode needs her to be (while always being grating). She knows Oliver, she doesn't know him. She trusts him, she doesn't trust him. She's a drunk, she's not.

 

Because, now I think about it, prior to that speech in episode 21, there always seemed to be an element of Laurel being suspicious of Oliver, of not quite knowing what was going on in his head. And that made complete sense. Because Laurel had discovered that he'd lied and cheated on her, and that was followed by five years of her thinking he was dead, and probably rehashing all their conversations and all their time together in her head, trying to figure out what had been true and what had been lies. Then he returns and he's more mysterious than ever, covered in scars and with a tortured, distant coolness to his personality. She's never known him, and she seemed to realise that. Except for episode 21. Sigh.

[tv echo]

I think I mentioned this somewhere else - but if Laurel really knew Oliver better than anyone else (and always saw beneath his superficial pre-island exterior), then she would've been the first to suspect that he was the vigilante back in season 1, when everyone else thought Oliver was still the same spoiled rich playboy.

 

I know there's some speculation that the EPs have some contractual obligation to keep Katie Cassidy on and make her the Black Canary, but now I'm leaning toward producer arrogance and ego as the reason for it. The EPs started out with their vision as to how the series would evolve, and they've made some tweaks to it to account for unexpected events (popularity of EBR and CL), but they've also commented that they'll give fans what they need and not what they want.  I feel that on some level the EPs want to stick with their original vision because that's their vision and therefore must be the best route for the show to go.

Edited June 7, 2014 by tv echo

[KirkB]

I know there's some speculation that the EPs have some contractual obligation to keep Katie Cassidy on and make her the Black Canary, but now I'm leaning toward producer arrogance and ego as the reason for it. The EPs started out with their vision as to how the series would evolve, and they've made some tweaks to it to account for unexpected events (popularity of EBR and CL), but they've also commented that they'll give fans what they need and not what they want.  I feel that on some level the EPs want to stick with their original vision because that's their vision and therefore must be the best route for the show to go.

 

   And you may well be right, but if their intent is to make Laurel into a hero like Oliver, why are they treating her the way they are on screen? Because they always talk about loving her but don't seem to show it. Unless the stuff she is going through now is supposed to be the crucible out of which she develops her new heroic persona. Which, if so, is comically missing the point since Oliver and Sara had to go through hell to get where they are.

[statsgirl]

 

Then he returns and he's more mysterious than ever, covered in scars and with a tortured, distant coolness to his personality. She's never known him, and she seemed to realise that. Except for episode 21.

I agree she's never known him but pretty much consistently she's felt she knew him completely, better than anyone else.  It just wavered between thinking he was a douche and thinking he was good.  In Damaged (1x05) Oliver specifically asked for her as his lawyer because she believed so strongly that he was worthless and couldn't possibly be a hero like the Hood.  It's like her feelings about the Hood, first he was a hero, then he was a killer, then he was a hero again, then he was responsible for Tommy's death.  She's black or white, a striking contrast to Diggle and Felicity who will tell Oliver when he's wrong but are always on his side, even when they're mad at him.

 

I feel that on some level the EPs want to stick with their original vision because that's their vision and therefore must be the best route for the show to go.

In that case, maybe we should hope WB keeps sending down the "notes" on the episodes.  (The note send down for 1x03 Lone Gunmen said something like 'more fight scenes and more of that blonde IT girl'.)

 

 

I'm still bitter about how the jacket scene treated Sara and all the smiles because it negated what had gone before.  At least Quentin and Oliver both knew what it was costing her.

Oliver: The League of Assassins...these people are mercenaries, Sara and whatever they promised you, it comes at a price.

Sara:  You don't have to worry about it because I've already paid it.

Oliver: You agreed to go back?

Sara:  I'm not going to let Slade Wilson hurt Laurel or my father and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to keep the ones that I love safe and I hope you're ready to do the same... To fight the unthinkable you have to be willing to do the unthinkable."

 

At first I thought they were ignoring Heir to the Demon and Sara's desperation to get out of the LoA but they weren't.  She still hated the idea of going back but she was willing to do the unthinkable to save her father and sister.  At least Quentin was out there fighting the mirakuru army to justify her sacrifice.

[writersblock51]

 

...I'm leaning toward producer arrogance and ego as the reason...

That's my suspicions, as well. And it could be yet more of their arrogance that they simply don't see what many of us do when Laurel is on the screen.  Perhaps they focus on the reactions of the fans that are in line with their ultimate goal.

 

I did not watch HIMYM but I have relatives & friends who did - and I've never seen such a ticked off response to a series finale as I saw & heard about that one.  In the handful of articles I read about it (because, by now, I was curious how a top rated show could end so controversially), it seems like the EPs had their end plan set from the pilot, so they were going to stick with that, no matter what.

 

Plans sometimes need to change - I hope the Arrow EPs are relying more on what's working, what's generating positive buzz for their show, how the network and the advertisers feel and, yes, gauge across a wide spectrum of fans & critics to get feedback than their own egos.  Because, in the end, I think it's safe to say that the EPs, the cast, crew and the fans all want the show to be on the air, entertaining, for many seasons.  

[dtissagirl]

I have no idea how involved in the story breaking Greg Berlanti is, but if there's anyone on Arrow who knows about throwing the plans away and going with a different one is him -- he's the one who went forward with the Joey/Pacey relationship on Dawson's Creek when he took over showrunning duties. Kevin Williamson's plan had always been Joey/Dawson as endgame.

 

The HIMYM finale being so criticized -- and the fact that the network passed on the How I Met Your Dad pilot -- gives me hope that studios/networks will be looking more closely at audience and media reaction from now on, and be wary of producers with a ~vision~ that isn't working a few years down the road.

 

At least whoever is running social media for both the CW and the WB happens to really really love Felicity and Oliver/Felicity. They wouldn't be posting any of it if the network and studio didn't approve.

[quarks]

but now I'm leaning toward producer arrogance and ego as the reason for it.

--

And it could be yet more of their arrogance that they simply don't see what many of us do when Laurel is on the screen.  Perhaps they focus on the reactions of the fans that are in line with their ultimate goal.

 

I'm not seeing this. I'm seeing:

 

1. Interviews where the showrunners openly acknowledge that the fans have not liked Laurel, and, moreover, Katie Cassidy's acting. This is unusual; showrunners often acknowledge issues with plots, and sometimes with characters - the Lost producers cheerfully acknowledged that fans really didn't like Nikki or Paolo, for instance.  But while making that acknowledgement, they praised the actors playing those characters. They continued to praise Kate's actress throughout the show's run. Over on Grimm, although the showrunners are definitely aware that Juliette isn't a popular character, they continue to praise her performance.  And nobody on the show is acknowledging any of the criticisms made of Haynes and Lotz.

 

There's a reason for this: you never, ever know when you might either have to work with these people again or be at an event with them. So you suck it up publicly.

 

2. A season where Cassidy was credited (thus paid for) but did not appear in three episodes - on a show that is continually reminding everyone about its budget issues.  In the same season where a showrunner promised that Laurel would be getting a five episode arc - an arc that ended up having not one, but two major Oliver/Felicity scenes; one major Roy episode; and two major Sara episodes. Laurel's major five episode arc, in the end, only had one episode focused on her - Blind Spot - an episode that focused on ending the Oliver/Laurel relationship - and had her shoot someone in the back, something even Slade and Merlyn haven't done.  Coupled with a season finale that, following an episode where Laurel stood on the street and watched Sara actually be a hero, Laurel spent most of the episode either drugged up or kidnapped.

 

3. A show that allowed two characters to take over Cassidy's original role on the show - one as Oliver's fighting partner, the other as his love interest. Seeds for this were planted as far back as episode 3. The camera and the script continue to lead back to Felicity  By episode 18, the show is very carefully paralleling the mutual loneliness of Oliver/Felicity while focusing on just how much Oliver/Laurel and Oliver/Sara ripped the Lance family apart, and making a point of having Laurel walk away from Oliver - shoulder glance or no shoulder glance - while having Oliver reach out to Felicity - who doesn't walk away.

 

4. From episode 3 on, every episode with Laurel in it has either a character comment or an in-show comment focusing on the problems with this relationship is. Joanna comments on it. Thea comments on it. Quentin comments on it.  Oliver comments on it. Laurel comments on it. Diggle comments on it. Sara comments on it. Yao Fei, who never even meets Laurel, comments on it. Slade comments on it. When characters are not openly saying that Laurel is an issue, the show comments on it.

 

It's not just me and others on this forum interpreting this relationship as toxic; the show has stated, again, and again, and then, again, that these two are not good for each other. The people arguing for the Oliver/Laurel relationship - and yes, there are some - are arguing for it because they love stories where the main couple survives against major odds and trauma and hurt, proving that Love Conquers All.

 

If you are honestly interested in promoting Katie Cassidy and Laurel as the love interest, you don't remind viewers every episode that Laurel is a problem. And yet, this show does.

 

5.  The publicity people for the CW and both of its corporate parents blatantly and cheerfully promoting Oliver/Felicity as the main relationship, to the point where CBS owned or part owned properties are listing Laurel as one of TV's most hated characters while promoting Oliver/Felicity.

 

At this point, the only things I see pointing to the showrunners not seeing the problem, or producer arrogance or ego:

 

1. Laurel is still on the show.

 

2.  To keep Laurel on the show, episodes have had awkward scenes inserted to give Laurel something to do or keep her connected to other characters, or allowed Laurel to take over plotlines of other characters.

 

3. Laurel finally finding out who Arrow is - from a villain.

 

4. Laurel's "I know you better than anyone else," speech - which, notably, was almost immediately followed by Oliver telling Laurel not to join Team Arrow and by two episodes where Laurel's only heroic moments were shooting an arrow to save herself, telling Sara that when assassins give you a beautiful name, you should trust their moral judgement of your character, and hitting someone that her sister had already shot. In two episodes where both Sebastian Blood and Deadshot got to be heroes.

 

5. Laurel getting the jacket.

 

6. Laurel is still on the show.

 

I know that "Laurel is still on the show" is not a positive sign. But what I'm seeing, after this season and rewatching the first season, are showrunners that by the time they wrote the third episode, knew that they had a problem, one that for whatever reason they can't get rid of. They seem to have tried a couple of different things to fix it, and finally decided to solve the problem by switching the love interest (by episode 14) and bringing in a new Black Canary.

 

Unfortunately, this is still leaving them with the issue of what to do with Laurel, which still hasn't been solved. Bringing in the Black Canary and then not killing her off after positive fan response hasn't helped. But I don't think any of this is an indication that they aren't aware of the problem.  I think they've shown that they very much are aware; they just haven't figured out how to solve it while keeping Laurel in the show.

[KirkB]

You're right, but the thing I don't get is since even the producers are acknowledging that Laurel is a problem, why are they keeping her around? They haven't been able to 'fix' her so far, if indeed they are trying, and I haven't seen anything to make me think that's going to change. Most shows in this situation would either ship her off somewhere or simply kill her off. So why aren't they? Sure, it would piss off the Laurel fans and the canon obsessed but if Laurel is the only major problem the show is dealing with why wouldn't they get rid of her?

Edited June 8, 2014 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

 

1. Interviews where the showrunners openly acknowledge that the fans have not liked Laurel, and, moreover, Katie Cassidy's acting.

They also seemed puzzled by why that should be. Then Kreisburg adding that the way Laurel handles knowing who the Arrow is will make us love her and make those who loved her before love her even more seems like they have a different interpretation of how and why the audience reacts to Laurel the way it does. 

 

Implying that Laurel knowing the Arrow's identity will be a game-changer and she's on Team Arrow now gives the character a lot of power.  I can't think of a single good scenario how why having her in the Arrow cave would make the team any better or more effective. In a law office, yes, but not in the cave.

 

I think they are aware that there is a problem but they're not sure exactly what it is, much less how to fix it.

[quarks]

The most obvious answer is "contract."

 

Followed by "stuff behind the scenes," but I suspect "contract" is the correct answer. 

[statsgirl]

So if they can't find a way to incorporate her into the series  by Christmas, the last third of season 3 will be How To Write Laurel Off?

 

Promise?

Edited June 8, 2014 by statsgirl

[SmallScreenDiva]

Hmmm, at a recent convention (Eek in Canada?), Stephen Amell said he was under contract for six years. So it's possible KC, as the female lead, is also under contract for that amount of time (sorry!)

[wonderwall]

Hmmm, at a recent convention (Eek in Canada?), Stephen Amell said he was under contract for six years. So it's possible KC, as the female lead, is also under contract for that amount of time (sorry!)

This is the most terrible comment I've seen on this thread so far. WHY. :p 

 

No but I thought shows weren't doing the whole 4+ years contracts anymore. Nowadays shows are sticking to the 3 year contracts. Dammit. 

 

I'm still pulling for KC being written off the show for creative reasons (There has to be a clause about that in the contract somewhere)...

[statsgirl]

I thought that everyone got 3 year contracts except for Stephen Amell who got six. That makes sense, you'd want to lock in the star of the show.

[Morrigan2575]

It was always rumored that SA had a 5 year contract while KC and everyone else was rumored or out right stated by TV Magazine to have 3 year contracts.

I've yet to hear anything from KC or anyone else to suggest that KC was given a 5 or 6 year contract.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[quarks]

Let's try this again. Statsgirl was noting that the producers seemed puzzled as to why we didn't like Laurel. I attempted to respond with:

 

Well, on paper, it is puzzling.

 

Laurel hasn't killed puppies.

 

And yet.

 

#

 

Then the forum software really hated me. Statsgirl was talking about Kreisberg's quote about how we would all love Laurel. So I went to go look at the quote, which I am not putting into block quotes because the forum software hates me:

 

""It doesn't sound like she will jump right into action. 'Does she actually believe [slade]?' he said. 'Laurel's reaction to hearing that news is going to surprise people and it will also validate people's faith in her character. For all the people who love her, they'll love her even more. Maybe some of the people who didn't love her will change their minds.'"

 

(Bolding mine.)  The key word there is "maybe." I don't think that's saying that we would love Laurel. 

 

He does say that Laurel fans would be pleased.  But as far as the anti-Laurel group is concerned, the most Kreisberg is saying here is that her reaction would "surprise" people. Which, since she didn't tell Oliver that she knew for a few more episodes, didn't try to have him arrested, and wasn't kidnapped in that episode, does, I guess, count as a surprise, and a few people here were surprised that she wasn't interested in what happened with Sara, so, surprise number two. (I realize I'm stretching this.) But after that, the most he says is that maybe her reaction will change people's minds - not that it will. And he doesn't seem to think that it will change all minds - just some. And most critically, he's acknowledging that people don't love her.

 

This isn't an admission that he's making about other characters. I do think that they were hoping that Laurel's response might make viewers like her more, but not counting on it.

 

In a related quote, he somewhat acknowledges that fans are now expecting Laurel to take things at face value, rather than thinking things through, and expecting Laurel to be stupid.  [Again, not using block quotes.]

 

"I think that Laurel's reaction to finding out the news -- for one, not just taking it at face value, but being smart about it -- her emotional reaction to the news is surprising. I think most people assume she's going to react one way," Kreisberg said, alluding to her past days spent popping pills and drinking excessively. "That she reacts in a different way is great."

 

I'm reading this as an acknowledgement that seeing Laurel react in an intelligent way is a surprise! And great! Which...strongly suggests that at this point, the showrunners did know that many viewers expected Laurel to react badly and/or stupidly.  She does get kidnapped a lot, after all.   But I don't think it says much for the character you've created if you admit that viewers were assuming the worst.

 

Kreisberg also told us again that Cassidy was really rising to the occasion - suggesting again an awareness of earlier complaints.  The producers aren't talking about any of the other characters or the actors this way, even those whose acting has been severely criticized (Amell, Haynes and Lotz.)  Cassidy is the only one where the producers feel the need to constantly reassure us about her acting.

 

Quoting Statsgirl again: "I think they are aware that there is a problem but they're not sure exactly what it is, much less how to fix it."

 

I think the issue is that there isn't "a" problem.

 

There's multiple problems.  Some might be fixable, or worked around, but so far, that hasn't been working.  The new showrunner arriving this season might help with that. Maybe.

Edited June 8, 2014 by quarks

[Morrigan2575]

I saw that. Eric something? Is he a new show runner or just a new writer/EP to pick up the slack now that AK is on Flash

[quarks]

She, and apparently new writer/EP.  She's coming in from WB.  I don't think the issue is just AK on Flash; Guggenheim's picked up more writing stuff too.

[Morrigan2575]

Wait there's a new female EP? I hadn't heard about that. I heard about someone named Eric who is a new EP.

Do you have a link or name?

Edited June 8, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[formerlyfreedom]

Hey - before you post, please go take a look at this, and make sure you are posting in the right place. Your moderators thank you!

[Hipkarma]

Can I talk about what concerns me on this thread because I'm concerned that Eric Oleson seems to be on shows that only last a season.

[statsgirl]

quarks, thank you for your reply in the face of the software hating you.

 

 

Which, since she didn't tell Oliver that she knew for a few more episodes, didn't try to have him arrested, and wasn't kidnapped in that episode, does, I guess, count as a surprise, and a few people here were surprised that she wasn't interested in what happened with Sara, so, surprise number two. (I realize I'm stretching this.) But after that, the most he says is that maybe her reaction will change people's minds - not that it will. And he doesn't seem to think that it will change all minds - just some. And most critically, he's acknowledging that people don't love her.

 

That's damning with faint praise, but you're right, many of us were surprised because she behaved like a reasonable human being, however not in her lack of interest in what happened to Sara.  I've been trying to think of another show where the producers acknowledged that a character that was supposed to be beloved wasn't, but I'm failing to right now.

 

Another surprise was that Sara wasn't killed off at the end of the season because many people were putting money on that. I wonder if the reason was that if Sara were killed off so that Laurel could become the Black Canary, the bitterness would be so great that Laurel would never recover.

 

If Laurel has to be killed off at the end of season 3 to delay Oliver/Felicity for another season, I will try to bear up as best I can.

[Lisin]

I moved a few posts over to the brand new News and Media thread. Let's all try to stay on topic please. This is a thread to bitch about the show, not speculate about what may happen or discuss who is in the production staff. 

[abhi]

 

Another surprise was that Sara wasn't killed off at the end of the season because many people were putting money on that.

I don't think Sara was meant to be killed off at the end of Season 2. The very early rumors were that Caity had a recurring contract for Season 2 with an option of converting it into a regular one. And in the earlier interviews of Caity whenever she was asked how much long she will be in Arrow she had replied "hopefully for many many many more episodes".Then in the later part of the season she avoided answering this question, most probably at the order of the EPs, probably to surprise the audience.

[Zalyn]

I moved a few posts over to the brand new News and Media thread. Let's all try to stay on topic please. This is a thread to bitch about the show, not speculate about what may happen or discuss who is in the production staff. 

Thank you for keeping things organized.  I am a bit unsure of how to use this thread, though.  Most of the people posting here are engaging in what would normally be considered constructive conversation in trying to understand why things are messed up on the show; in most places, this would be entirely appropriate discussion.  Very few people are actually "bitching," as general forum etiquette teaches most of us to avoid conversation-ending vitriolic rants. 

 

I know that we created this thread because people were complaining about Laurel's writing and the dissonance between the producers and audience perceptions to get it out of the Laurel thread.  But I think that it's not really clear how this thread should be managed - if it is just for griping without trying to discuss why (i.e. who was writing X show, behind the scenes info), then that would be helpful.  I also would probably not read this thread if it is just for insults and hostility, but I appreciate that some would like such a place to just vent without intention of discussing. Clarifying the standards of this thread would help reduce conflicts.

[FAU]

""It doesn't sound like she will jump right into action. 'Does she actually believe [slade]?' he said. 'Laurel's reaction to hearing that news is going to surprise people and it will also validate people's faith in her character. For all the people who love her, they'll love her even more. Maybe some of the people who didn't love her will change their minds.'"

 

 

The problem here is that he's trying way too hard to hype this, her reaction was nothing to write home about.  It's really sad when you have to address this and a 'maybe you'll like her' for a character is all you can come up with.

[Zalyn]

The problem here is that he's trying way too hard to hype this, her reaction was nothing to write home about.  It's really sad when you have to address this and a 'maybe you'll like her' for a character is all you can come up with.

I really hate it when people tell me how I'm supposed to feel about something.  It's one of my pet peeves and is very likely to make me unchangeably biased against them forever after.  I guess it just feels really violating and insulting that they, without a psychology or psychiatry background, can claim to have special knowledge without actually trying to get to know me. 

 

Saying, "We hope this will change how you feel" is aspirational, and that's fine. But that comment really grates on me and adds to my frustration with having Laurel shoved down my throat.  It feels like Prom King/Queen all over again - we're supposed to like them because someone declared it so.

[dtissagirl]

I watched the hallway scene between Laurel and Oliver paying really close attention to her acting specifically because Guggenheim had mentioned on Twitter that it was "Emmy-worthy". Newsflash: it really really wasn't.

 

Both MG and AK have been going out of their way to praise Katie Cassidy publically, which only makes me think that this is how she needs to be handled. I thought it was kind of hilarious that they sent KC out to do press for 221-222, and then a lot of reviews and media coverage for the episodes came out with praise for EBR's acting.

[Lisin]

Thank you for keeping things organized.  I am a bit unsure of how to use this thread, though.  Most of the people posting here are engaging in what would normally be considered constructive conversation in trying to understand why things are messed up on the show; in most places, this would be entirely appropriate discussion.  Very few people are actually "bitching," as general forum etiquette teaches most of us to avoid conversation-ending vitriolic rants. 

 

I know that we created this thread because people were complaining about Laurel's writing and the dissonance between the producers and audience perceptions to get it out of the Laurel thread.  But I think that it's not really clear how this thread should be managed - if it is just for griping without trying to discuss why (i.e. who was writing X show, behind the scenes info), then that would be helpful.  I also would probably not read this thread if it is just for insults and hostility, but I appreciate that some would like such a place to just vent without intention of discussing. Clarifying the standards of this thread would help reduce conflicts.

 

I have no problem with discussing why something is messed up in this thread, however posting press releases that a new person was named EP without any context or discussion of what that means isn't discussing why, it's just stating a fact from a press release, which is why I moved it to the media thread. If there had been discussion like "Mr. Smith was just hired as head writer, from his stint on show X we can extrapolate that his writing style may lead us down blankity blank road..." which would be fine for the Hopes and Fears thread... look, I'm not trying to be a hard ass and I'm really willing to let this be organic to an extent but if you look at the threads with the most posts on this forum they are all the same conversation, and that conversation is mostly suited for Hopes and Fears which is why I created the topic.

 

The speculation about Laurel becoming BC is a good example, we don't know anything but we all fear it will happen and hope it wont, to me a bitterness thread is for bitterness, not speculation about something you might be bitter about later. I'm not warning people or anything, just moving posts to try to make the forum easier to navigate. Half the time I'm reading posts and trying to figure out why the 4 paragraph post about X relates to the thread topic. I'm not going to go back and move all of those, but moving forward I'd love it if everyone could make an effort to be more on topic. That's all. 

[Sakura12]

This show basically consists of action scenes and shipper scenes. The characters it appears are not that important to them since they are easily retconned or ruined for unknown reasons. I like a little bit more substance in my shows, which is probably why this show annoys me so much. I need more. It appeared they had it for awhile but that might have just been distracting me with shiny things. 

 

I thought at first it was Laurel that was ruining the show, but the more I think about it, even if she left there are still a lot of issues with the writing. I like character driven shows. Even when I get mad at something the character does, I still want to watch every week to see what happens, especially if it's consistent trait with that character. That's probably the main reason I won't be watching Arrow next season. I'm not that invested in the characters as individuals. 

[dtissagirl]

I thought at first it was Laurel that was ruining the show, but the more I think about it, even if she left there are still a lot of issues with the writing. I like character driven shows. Even when I get mad at something the character does, I still want to watch every week to see what happens, especially if it's consistent trait with that character. That's probably the main reason I won't be watching Arrow next season. I'm not that invested in the characters as individuals. 

 

I thought they had found a relatively good balance between being plot-driven and character-driven in the last 5 episodes of S1, and the first 9 of S2. But then they had to figure out a way to fix Laurel. And from the looks of it, that was around the same time they decided how the finale was gonna play out -- the ILY fake out, and having Team Arrow and the LoA and the Suicide Squad and Slade's Army all at once. And to get to that they started sacrificing organic character development, and the show turned very plot-driven, with almost every character action happening because the story needed to get to the place they wanted it to go.

 

So in Blind Spot everyone is suddenly very very stupid so that Laurel can be seen by the audience as the only one who realizes the truth about Blood. And Sara and Oliver hook up because it helps make the fake out all that much more shocking. And Diggle has to work with the Suicide Squad because they need the SS in the finale [plus testing out possible spin-offs, but that's still plot driven -- Helena being redeemed also played into that]. And so on and so forth with every character.

Edited June 8, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Morrigan2575]

Pretty much word to your entire post. Very well said.

[southrnbygrace]

I would give everything I own if they would stop doing the island scenes on this show. I hate them with the heat of a million suns.

[statsgirl]

Not to mention, you think he would have said something to her about wearing a white coat on a stealth mission.

[wonderwall]

This new interview with Mark Guggenheim is really interesting!

 

There's nothing that makes me more bitter than people in comment sections claiming Felicity/Oliver scenes are mere fan pandering. This puts a stop to that. Mark basically states that this is not the case and said that Oliver/Felicity have been growing naturally. 

 

Another point of bitterness I'd like to point is the Laurel thing. He literally mentioned nothing about her. This makes me hopeful. This really really makes me hopeful. No one has been talking about Laurel (other than KC) which just makes me really happy because no one cares about Laurel's arc right now. What matters is Oliver's journey and incorporating more team Arrow (Digg and Felicity). 

 

Mark also stated that the EPs and writers are not afraid to deviate from the initial plan, thus Felicity becoming a series regular. This puts my HIMYM fear to bay for a while because at least one EP gets it. He also states that Arrow isn't trying to be a part of the old CW gossip girly mold and that the network doesn't want Arrow to "service its brand" -- this makes me hopeful that the writers will try to minimize the love triangles. 

 

AND he said they might talk about how Slade gets his food on the show. (I pretty much think Felicity will ask it as a throwaway question on the show because she tends to voice what the audience thinks on the show :p).

 

Basically I loved almost everything Mark said. 

[Zalyn]

This new interview with Mark Guggenheim is really interesting!

 

There's nothing that makes me more bitter than people in comment sections claiming Felicity/Oliver scenes are mere fan pandering. This puts a stop to that. Mark basically states that this is not the case and said that Oliver/Felicity have been growing naturally. 

 

Another point of bitterness I'd like to point is the Laurel thing. He literally mentioned nothing about her.

Great find!  Several interesting parts in that interview, but they're too non-bitter for here, so I'll bring them elsewhere.

 

His comment on media reminded me why I try to find a balance of being critical but also offering examples of successful writing/acting or being specific about what aspect of a show bothers me and why: I imagine that someone from the show reads forums like these and will consider thoughtful critique to improve the show (I also would love to see this be the scion of TWOP in all the best ways).  I also know how it feels to read toxic stuff about me online, so I personally prefer to think about posting as I would talk to them rather than just venting. I know that quite a few actors don't read Twitter or other social media because it's just so vicious and toxic and soulkilling, and I feel bad that they can't interact with fans or enjoy the fruits of their labor as much as they deserve to. 

 

Also: "I watched it and then, when I realize I have two young daughters and they could grow up to become this, it became at lot less enjoyable for me to watch." - on the one hand, I'm glad that the "daughter effect" is kicking in more and more for male writers/producers, but the fact that it has to at all still shows me how far we still need to go in media production recognizing its own biases.

[statsgirl]

 

Stan Lee once said that the trick to writing to comic book readers—and I think this applies to all audiences—is that you don’t write what they want, but write what they need.

So much bitterness from that remark.

 

When I'm feeling better about MC and AK, I wonder what the effect would have been had the quote been "you don’t write what they want, but write what the story needs."

[Starfish35]

I hate that "want" "need" thing, because in this context I always feel like they're trying to tell me that the show needs Laurel to be Black Canary even if the fans don't want her to be, and I'm like "no no it really doesn't".

Edited June 9, 2014 by Starfish35