calliope1975 October 20, 2016 Share October 20, 2016 6 minutes ago, looptab said: What I'm saying is, it's too soon to judge. And, at any rate, if you guys feel like dropping the show, at least don't drop the board :) Oh, you are all stuck with me! I enjoy interacting with everyone so much; you don't even know how often participating on this board has gotten me through some rough real life times. I'm not ready to quit the show yet, but, at this point, I only want to watch scenes, not entire episodes. I don't want any part of the new LI's - even if I know they're temporary. It's why I skipped a big chunk of S3 - Ray was creepy and rage inducing. But, I think once that's resolved, I can start watching again without making up large chunks of the show in my head. (What BMD? There's no spawn in my mental AU.) I know this show can be fun even at it's cheesiest. I just want that back. And a pony. 13 Link to comment
Popular Post SmoaknArrow October 20, 2016 Popular Post Share October 20, 2016 (edited) I've lurked here a long time for the great conversation and, after something brought up yesterday, I'm delurking. Hope nobody minds if I jump into this conversation. It's going to be kind of lengthy, so I apologize in advance. On 10/20/2016 at 5:49 AM, quarks said: And yet here, a very engaged fan who reads all of the interviews/PR and has previously mentioned purchasing Arrow related products is saying that the showrunners don't want non-comic fans. This isn't an isolated fan or statement. This is a pretty major disconnect, similar to the huge disconnect between the way 502 was marketed and what actually happened in that episode. So the question is, why/how, given this quote, and given that Arrow has a history of deviating from the comics and/or killing/sending off comics canon characters, has Arrow convinced EmilyBettFan and others that the show cares more about comic fans than non comic fans? That, to me, is the interesting question, though I fear answering/exploring it further will veer off into fan talk and people hitting me with dead horses or telling me I need to eat more hats. I would never speak for anybody else, let alone EmilyBettFan, but I've found myself with that same sentiment in my mind. I do not believe that Arrow writes for the comic book fans and doesn't want non-comic book fans. Guggenheim's answer on this recently just reinforced something I've believed and said for years. But there is a disconnect this season. It's something I've tried to communicate on Twitter to the show execs, but that 140 character limit makes that difficult, and it's even more so when others filter it through a predetermined meaning opposite to what you're actually trying to say. Plus I'm sure the show runners have me muted by now. LOL! The vibe of "they're not writing for me" (aka a non-comic fan) started surfacing during this hiatus. I'll focus specifically on the promotion and talking points. For the entire hiatus, every talking point raised by the show seemed designed to appeal to the comic book fan. Is that the "right" impression? Not necessarily. Several of their points are things I had criticism about (like downplaying Oliver's fighting skills and shoving him to the background) and asked that they fix, but when combined with the show's other talking points in their narrative, it starts to lean in that "for comic-book fans" direction impression-wise. These talking points include: Flashpoint, stunts, gritty/grounded/back to basics, focus on Oliver Queen (the show is "Arrow" not {fill in the blank other aspect here}), new mask (x 5 I believe? I think we'll be up to at least 5 new masks this season, not counting villains), metahuman to join the team, Team Arrow 2.0, Oliver "goes it alone," and action, action, action! I'm all for grounded and gritty, stunts, getting Oliver back to a competent fighter, etc., however, many online fans know that these are the same talking points many comic book fans used to attack the show as reasons why Felicity / Olicity / OTA must die. So when the show began to echo those points (and started cramming in half a dozen new masks, a meta human, etc), and it felt like you couldn't drag the word "Felicity" or "Olicity" out of them... combined with Olicity is ambiguous, we're writing away from their romance, and Olicity won't necessarily reunite this year, I can see where the feeling developed that the show cares more about the comic book crowd than non. The talking points lined up. Add in some unfortunate comments by show-connected people on social media that smacked of shipper shaming, mocking Felicity / Olicity fans, etc., and that match was lit. Even now the promotion is focused on suits, masks, and the comic book elements. They keep emphasizing New Team Arrow 2.0 when I wanted more OTA. They kept emphasizing how Oliver was "alone" and ignoring/dismissing that Felicity was actually still on the team. We were about to hit the premiere and we still hadn't heard anything about Felicity or her story. Yes, they commented on it in social media, but there was really nothing promotion-wise to convey any of that to the average, off-line viewer. There still isn't. Felicity's story has apparently started and I haven't seen a single interview with Emily Bett Rickards talking about her own character. She's vanished. But male actors are brought out to comment on her story and how it impacts them? Setting Olicity aside, there is a sense that Felicity Smoak has been de-powered by the show (which is a form of being fridged). She is the only character on this show that the writers have framed in "nevers." To be clear, I am not saying Felicity needs a mask or a suit to be a hero or that she is not currently a hero. I think we all know she is. My point is this: Arrow is an action show, yet Felicity is the one character who cannot get self defense training even after being paralyzed last year, is consistently reduced in skills so those abilities can be handed off to those who are in masks (usually men), kept behind a keyboard, removed from stunts, action sequences, missions, and fieldwork. The excuse that she's a hacker/computer geek, however, never applies to the men who are supposed to be her tech equivalents, and the hairsplitting reasoning for that rings extremely hollow. More important, these reductions are all things many in the comic book segment of the viewership said they wanted. So to some, it feels like the comic book fans are being listened to as Felicity Smoak is reduced from Genius to hacker to "funny girl," and the show continues to drum on the talking point this year re taking Felicity back to her S1 and 2 roots. She feels like she's being boxed in and limited while everybody else is allowed to evolve around her, and that's not okay with me. Then the EP of the show says they're going to "articulate" anti-Felicity fans via the storyline? Are you kidding me? My objection is not that the story was going to give Ragman the POV of Bomber Bad! Of course he is. Of course he'd feel that way. Of course I was expecting him to react that way and for there to be conflict. My frustration yesterday was that the EP/Writers took something that so many viewers have waited so long for -- a story for Felicity Smoak about Felicity Smoak -- waited until mere hours before the episode aired to even mention it, and then made her story about the fans who hate her. {{{bangs head on desk}}} In 0.1 second they took what should have been an exciting reason to rally online, tweet live, and even do a trend and just smothered it. There was absolutely zero reason to even bring that up in discussion of her story. None. And it triggered an understandable anger from Felicity fans. Felicity should not feel like she's being written as viewed through the restrictive lens of people who simply want her gone. Why does it always feel like who she is, what she's allowed to be/do/become is controlled by those that dislike her and will always dislike her instead of her numerous fans? No other character on this show has those kind of "never" restrictions. Not one. Anyway, back to the promotion/talking points. I worked hard all hiatus to build the mindset of Keep an Open Mind. Take It Week To Week. Olicity isn't the only reason I watch, but with all the talking points about time travel, meta humans, masks, and New Team Arrow 2.0 for season 5, Oliver & Felicity were the one thing left I had to be excited about and then BAM! That was done too. I mean, when your offline friends are emailing you about the TV Guide/Wendy article saying, "Well that couldn't be more explicit. They're done. What else is good on Wednesday nights?" you have a serious problem. The show hammered home the ambiguous/might not happen Oliver/Felicity are over for months. Did it not occur to the show runners that a lot of viewers might actually, ya know, believe them? Whenever I try to talk about this promotional disconnect, a lot of people say: Stop reading interviews and stop paying attention to the promotion and just watch the show. But that's my point:I can't get to the TV Screen through their talking points and misleading promotion. While I don't think that the average viewer reads all the articles and interviews, I do think viewers are exposed to the average promotion (commercials) and some of the mainstream media articles, like the TV Guide/Wendy one. My problems is not (at that time) that the talking points/promotion didn't reflect what was on the screen. My problem is that -- after 5-6 months of hiatus narrative -- they were making it impossible for me to want to put my butt in front of that TV Screen to even watch. They were giving me no reason to believe that Season 5 was going to be anything more than what they were promoting: Flashpoint, masks, meta humans, time travel, crossovers. I was begging them to give me one thing -- just one thing -- to be excited about, to tune in & live tweet for, or even trend about. They couldn't do it. They still don't seem able to do it. Now, every week, I try to talk myself into watching. Sometimes I get really close to doing it. Then the show saying something completely dumb (points to yesterday's Felicity Smoak article comments) and shoves me right back out again, putting Arrow on Netflix and waiting til it's done and I know what they've done before I commit to 23 episodes. The problem here is not that I don't want to watch. I do! The problem is the EPs and writers keep shooting themselves in the foot. They literally talk me out of watching every week and that's me avoiding 95% of the articles and interviews and have been for weeks. What little gets through just confirms the hiatus message that This Is Not For You. When that's the message so many people are absorbing, how do you get people motivated to be a social media force online? To put in that time and hard work when there's no reason to be excited? How do you justify asking them to do that? How long do you blindly promote when, at every turn, the promotion seems to say to you: This show is not for you, we don't care about what you value enough to talk about it or promote it, and you're not going to get it? I have almost 17K followers now on Twitter and I have no idea how to answer those questions when people come to me and ask. Arrow show runners seem to have indicated they interpret anger as passion. So at this point... What option do you leave people to express their dissatisfaction other than silence? Note from your loving mod: This post is quite thoughtful and articulate and overall @SmoaknArrow speaks to her own reactions to the show and not to those of other fans. So I'm not going to go through and edit the places where she mentions fans and/or how MG and Co may or may not be trying to appeal to various fandoms. That being said, that line of discussion is still not ok in these forums, so please continue to self moderate on that front. Point the second: while the Spoiler Discussion thread had a pretty wide ambit, this really is more of a Bitterness thread discussion, so I'm going to move it there. Edited October 20, 2016 by MuuMuuChainsmoker 80 Link to comment
thegirlsleuth October 20, 2016 Share October 20, 2016 12 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said: @looptab, for me, it really comes down to the erasure of Sara Diggle. All of the rest of it? I stayed hooked through all of S3's canned episodes, MN's RAG, the reduction of fight sequences to no more than twirling to knock the bad guys out, countless scenes in the same warehouse and ally, the BMD(!), LL/BC (!), the weird fixation on MM as Thea's daddy, SmoakNLance, Nyssa's forced marriage, and the sleeveless suit--so I'm not normally picky about the show or demanding high quality. I've LOVED Arrow through all of that and forgave its stupidity faster than Barry Allen can screw things up. So, yeah, I grumble about acting and new characters and plot holes, but if there were a hint, a whiff of a suggestion that they would undo the erasure of a female character, I'd allow myself to hop right back on the train. I won't drop the board--I've been so glad for this haven--but I also won't constantly impose my bitterness on everybody. I'll just go back to lurking and liking posts for awhile until I have nicer things to say. :-) This is sort of where I am. I'm really negative about the show right now, and haven't watched 5.02 or 5.03, and probably won't until at least 5.05, and possibly later. In seasons three and four, this show squandered it's early season promise. They would set up an interesting premise--balancing the Arrow and Oliver Queen, or family--and then lose it to comic book gotcha moments and conflict driven by Oliver lying again. I don't want to poison the experience of those who are still enjoying it, but I'm having a hard time leaving the board--you all are smart and funny and share my obsession with this green leather clad vigilante, characteristics that are hard to find in the real world. I'm trying to limit myself to liking comment or asking a question if I'm trying to figure out what's going on. 9 Link to comment
fromfeartohope October 20, 2016 Share October 20, 2016 (edited) In full disclaimer- I stopped watching when the baby mama drama happened and only came back to watch the bird die. Last year I felt that the broke up just for the sake of drama. I get it, it's tv. And some people think you can't have happy couples on tv, but that's the thing 4a proved that you could and showed it masterfully. But when you add the unnecessary set up for LOA and the magic, I tuned out. I thought about giving 5 a chance, and then I started to listen to Gugg/WM, and well...I haven't come back. I get that they are together without being together. And I'm 80% sure they will end up together forever, but I can't seem to trust the writers to do what's right. I feel that they take us for a fool, especially when we had the same kind of story line in 3 with Ray and 2 with Sara. But I also care too much about Oliver and Co. to not at least keep up with them, it makes me crazy but I still do it anyway. When I hear @SmoaknArrow articulate the same concerns I have, I know I'm not crazy. For those of you that don't know, she did a lot of trends and all on twitter. To loose her as a viewer, is massive and sad. I know two weeks ago I was saying it's sad that the ratings dropped so low, and I'm sad that it keeps dropping. That's the hard part about this, while I will not celebrate it's downfall, I still can't bring myself to help it up. They haven't given me any reason to. Edited October 20, 2016 by fromfeartohope 19 Link to comment
HJCougar October 20, 2016 Share October 20, 2016 11 minutes ago, fromfeartohope said: I know two weeks ago I was saying it's sad that the ratings dropped so low, and I'm sad that it keeps dropping. That's the hard part about this, while I will won't celebrate it's downfall, I still can't bring myself to help it up. They haven't given me any reason to. Perfectly stated. This is exactly how I feel. 1 Link to comment
writersblock51 October 20, 2016 Share October 20, 2016 I haven't posted here since sometime late last season. I was displeased with much of Season 4, starting with the BMD and Barry messing with timelines on shows that aren't his... I had stopped watching the Flash by the time Shark-Man showed up so now that the Flash is still affecting Arrow (and erasing a child). The summer hiatus did absolutely nothing to draw me into the premiere. But Arrow has been a Must See TV for me since the pilot and, with many bumps along the way and a few episodes where I Fast Forwarded through more scenes than I actually watched, I wanted to watch the start of S5. Was it as problematic as I had expected to be? Yes and no. I knew Diggle wasn't going to be on it for more than a few seconds. Had I been a casual viewer, though, I think I would have been disappointed. My spouse, Mr Casual Viewer/Has No Idea About The Comics, was baffled by Diggle's lack of screen time. So that was one notch against the show for me/us. We both loved LOVED the Bravta scenes and were very happy that the Flashbacks held promise for the season. It has been a few years since either of us have felt that way about Flashbacks. So that was a big positive. Then came Oliver as Mayor. Fine. No complaints there. Thea helping run things in the Mayor's office. Um, ok but certainly no less feasible than her running a nightclub at the age of 19 so sure... Tobias Church. Excellent introduction!!! Nothing but thumbs up about him and that story potential. Then... Lance. Anything Lance, actually. Paul B can act his way through the crappiest of dialogue and stories, so my beef is NOT with him. I was not happy about him drinking himself into a stinking pile of mess again. And the Laurel love was .... totally unrelated to anything we'd seen on screen for that character in 4 years. It was 100% retcon and I was offended. I've watched since the pilot and heavens, it was as if I had watched about 90 episodes of an entirely different show. Had I FFd through that many of her scenes in previous seasons that I was now hearing about a character that I somehow had misinterpreted for so long? I don't think so. Add that to the notches against, then. Curtis - I like him in small doses. And if he's going to siphon much of Felicity's skills and dialog, I could do with seeing him once every 5 episodes. The newbies/n00bs. How many viewers were asking for more masks? Especially newbies that need a LOT of training? (Meanwhile, Felicity gets none) That leaves Felicity. And, of course, she has also been retconned because why not? Can we blame it on Barry? She's just a hacker now. Gone are the tech gadgets and inventive skills she had for so long. Those now belong solely to Curtis (or shared, off screen, with Cisco). She's been a CEO but nah, she's just a hacker. Oh, and she's Pep Talk and Flirty IT Girl again. Because, sure, being CEO and engaged to and living with Oliver seem to have been arcs that are largely forgotten in this new season. I'd read about the ambiguous Olicity by the time the premiere aired. Wendy's comments came shortly after the premiere, I think? It was obvious that the show was going in that direction. The problem is, and this is just my opinion, that SA and EBR's chemistry will NEVER play off as "just flirty." And writing them as they were in S1 - S3 also offends me. I know what I watched in S4. To try to have these 2 specific actors in scenes where much of S4 is apparently verboten to reference is just silly. By the end of the premiere when the detective showed up, I was already breaking up with the show. My spouse is no longer watching. The premiere was enough for him. When I told him about Flash causing changes on Arrow for the rest of the season, he was done. And disgusted. Comic book canon and references mean nothing to him. There is also more competition on Wed nights at 8pm for us (Lethal Weapon and Blindspot, plus baseball playoffs). I have yet to watch all of 502 and 503. I've seen some clips. I believe the folks that are telling me that the episodes do NOT match the interviews given by MG and WM (so far). That they don't even match the previews and clips. My plan at this point is to catch up down the road (the show is still on the DVR) if I feel that there's enough to enjoy. I want to love the show again but I also realize that perhaps my enjoyment has been lessening over the past 2 seasons. I was engaged in discussions, buying Arrow merchandise (own S1 - S3, for example), going to a few cons... I used to recommend this show to anyone I knew who liked action, (b)romance, humor and heart in a show. And the stunt work had been pretty compelling for a while there. S4 changed things, though. The flashbacks took up precious screen time that, in retrospect, could have gone to better develop other (especially the core 3) characters and their stories. Yet again, I found the villain lacking. How you screw up Neal McDonough is beyond me. Adding magic was a risk that, IMO, did not work as well as intended. And I think Malcolm has been a caricature. I remember how menacing he was in S1 and want to cry. One last point - Arrow is celebrating 100 episodes very soon (the party is this weekend, I think) and has a 5th season. This is fantastic! If anyone had told me in 2011 that the show would be at this point, I would have said they were crazy and just wishful thinking. Green Arrow was known as Batman Lite and the Poor Man's Batman. His comic book history was decades old (I first read them in the 70s when I was a kid) yet he was NOT recognizable. There was no merchandise in stores for him; the Flash and Green Lantern were far better known in the DC world. So where is the promotion for this? Why aren't DC/WB/CW promoting the hell out of this show, this season? Celebrating? If not for the success of Arrow, the Flash, Legends of Tomorrow and, quite possibly, Supergirl, would not have made it onto TV when they did. It boggles my mind, and irks me greatly, that the promotion has been so non-existent. Perhaps that will change in the coming weeks as the 100th episode draws closer. And I hope Arrow climbs up in ratings this season, too. I think the cast works extremely hard to put on a great show. 17 Link to comment
Guest October 20, 2016 Share October 20, 2016 (edited) I'm very much of two minds about the show right now. Everything we've been told over the hiatus and since the season started has made me dread every episode. I'm even dreading what's to come later in the season because that's usually when the show goes off the rails, IMO. My expectations are basically at zero and I have little hope for Olicity or anything really, which is especially hard when I still love the characters. And I'm definitely not who this show is catering to. At least that's what their PR has told me, repeatedly. It's been really disheartening and I've struggled with whether to drop the show for good. As a result, I've not been watching live. But in spite of all of that, I'm actually enjoying the episodes so far. I was especially dreading last week's and it ended up being enjoyable. I was pleasantly surprised. I'm not happy with everything, of course, (I will never forgive them for Mayo Bread, ever!) but the content is definitely not matching what we're being told week after week. It's bizarre. So I get being conflicted. I agree with all complaints and issues stated here (I feel the same way about a lot of things) and I think fans have every right to drop the show because we don't owe them any loyalty (especially not after the mess that was s4b and, let's face it, s3 wasn't much good either), but I also think a wait and see approach helps too. I always said I'd give them until 505 before I make up my mind and I've recently changed that to 509. But who knows? If they keep these episodes up and I don't outright hate what happens, I may even continue. (I think the only thing that will make me quit 100% is a new Canary love interest for Oliver.) But I do think the low expectations helps a lot. Well, it's working for me so far. Haha. It's just a shame it has even reached this point tbh. They bought this all on themselves. Edited October 20, 2016 by Guest Link to comment
calliope1975 October 21, 2016 Share October 21, 2016 I had written this as part of a post in Spoilers, but it really belongs here. I know it's stupid and pointless to think of what TIIC could have done, but it kills me that they could have not gone with the LI's, either had Olicity reunite or not, but still have them acting as Mom/Dad of the noobs. You still get Felicity's guilt with Ragman, and maybe she feels too guilty to confide in Oliver, etc., etc., but you lose this stall that, while I know isn't going anywhere, is turning many off from watching. Remove that unnecessary angst, and I could have had it allll.................. (Back to creating my own personal head AU.) 12 Link to comment
Midnight Lullaby October 21, 2016 Share October 21, 2016 I only watched the first episode and some clips of episode two so my view of things is partial but I decided I'd rather binge watch the show during the winter hiatus than watch every week because I lost most of my interest. Season 4B was pretty disappointing for me between the baby mama mess, the magic thing that never really worked and the mystery of who is in the grave that was made the focus on the season then it turned out to be anticlimactic..I have never cared for LL and in S4 she was basically a background character but after it was revealed it was her in the grave I found the rest of the season pointless because that was the big mystery..maybe it would have worked better if she was killed in the season finale..I don't know. Also they didn't tease anything for Felicity in the finale, other than that she was sticking around with Oliver so I needed during the summer something to make me excited again and they didn't deliver for me. I even liked the first episode but their retconning of LL was annoying and Oliver and Felicity acted as if they were back in season 2 again and that was again disappointing to me. I know we always lose stuff between the finale and the premiere but there are parts of the story that IMO they have to explain. Instead they decide to show Felicity with her new boyfriend to point out she is unavailable without telling me how she feels, why she decided to start a new relationship, how she feels about Oliver now..I need more out of a story to keep my interest alive. 12 Link to comment
kes0704 October 21, 2016 Share October 21, 2016 (edited) The lack of follow through on so many stories is what I find most frustrating. We never get Felicity's POV on anything, and in S5 it feels like the EP's believe the audience has been affected by flashpoint and we don't remember anything we watched in S1 - 4. I loathed the LOA in S3, but the BMD, magic and nuclear missiles in S4 wasn't that much better. I'm tired of being told that conversations and character development, that we should be seeing, happened in offscreenville. I'm tired of new masks!, gotchas! and gamechanging!, epic! plot twists that end up being nothing much or somewhat offensive. Arrow may not have had to launch a new show this year, but it is still being held hostage by The Flash, which I resent. I want to love Arrow again, but the lack of internal logic and consistency plus the character retcons and repetitive story beats is really making it hard. Edited October 21, 2016 by kes0704 21 Link to comment
RussianRoulette October 21, 2016 Share October 21, 2016 (edited) To follow up on this very interesting conversation and different perspectives, I realized this morning that I'm still having lingering ragey feelings in my drunken haze harboring residual bitterness. Truthfully and to my surprise, I quite enjoyed the previous 3 episodes. But I came into the 5th seasons with -689898 expectations, so it kinda helped matters. That being said, the residual bitterness is stemming from a wide range of factors, which are related to both storytelling and more corporate/business issues: - Characters' sheer stupidity for plot purposes and drama and gotcha!shocking!moments - Writers' and showrunners' failure to understand, write and convey basic human emotions and interactions. - (Mis)treatment of female characters (which includes every female character) because they are only props! and don't deserve their own PoV. There have been a lot of very, very, infuriating plot devices happening in the span of 5 years. - Gaping plot holes, lack of minimal continuity, and just plain inconsistencies. Do not insult my intelligence, show. - Lack of "corporate" promotion (or at best misleading ones) combined with the over-reliance and under-appreciation of FREE fan promotion. This has been discussed many times before. - Utter failure from the showrunners at engaging with the fans. For instance, MG's condescending reply of "it's just a show, there are more important things to focus in life". Dude, sit down. Yeah, I know that. It's called entertainment. This was downright infuriating and insulting. Maybe he should focus on entertaining the crowds and not on biting the hands that feed him. If you don't know how to engage with the audience, take a crash course. - And, finally, what I call "breach of contract" with the viewer (at least with my eyeballs!). What I mean by that is that the show premise was Oliver's story as the main focal point (his 5 years away and the present time), they also added very early on OTA, then Olicity. The formula worked for me, I was invested in the stories and the characters and they made the show for me. But then we have, spinoff after spinoff, we have 78798799 masks in the field. As icing on the tiered cake of spinoffs, maskZ and n00bieZ, we have the BMD! The cherry on top? Flashpoint, which - even better- happened on another show, and finally the ~back to basics. First, I don't want to watch 4 shows to understand one and I certainly don't want the writers to have a free pass to retcon to their little hearts' content just because they fail at characterization. Second, I like neither character regression nor re-heated storylines. Whew, that was oddly cathartic. I want to like and enjoy the show I invested 4+ years in, dammit! Oh, hope springs eternal! Edited October 21, 2016 by RussianRoulette 22 Link to comment
GirlvsTV October 21, 2016 Share October 21, 2016 My bitterness ultimately boils down to the fact that I have lost all faith and trust in the writers to create a good story that respects the characters and relationships they've established over the past 4 seasons. Even though people seem to be responding positively to the new episodes so far, I can't bring myself to watch because it feels like a waste of time to get invested in the characters again when everything will likely be dismissed, stalled or retconned by mid-season. Or I'll get excited about where Oliver and Felicity might be going, only to have it unravel due to some completely ooc decision or choice one of them makes that ultimately undermines their entire relationship up to that point. The recent promotional focus and EP interviews seem to be saying to me the show is no longer interested in keeping viewers who like Felicity and Oliver/Felicity, so I'm not sure why I should stick around to watch. 23 Link to comment
SmallScreenDiva October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 Who were the people in the first season who took one look at Laurel and Oliver and said nope, saw the possibility of Original Team Arrow and went with that? Those quick changes in Season 1 are among the reasons I gave Arrow a chance, because I thought they learned quickly from their mistakes. But the storytelling in the past 3 seasons told me Season 1 was basically a fluke. 12 Link to comment
tv echo October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 (edited) Honestly, I'm no longer convinced that Oliver & Felicity will ever become a couple again or that they're endgame in the EPs' eyes. After Laurel was killed, MG said something about how they were never going to reunite her and Oliver as a couple again, even if she had lived, because they told that story in Season 1. I'm now envisioning interviews during next year's SDCC when MG says something like how they felt they had fully explored Oliver & Felicity as a couple in Seasons 3 & 4 and wanted to move past that. Or SA saying something like how Felicity will always be one of Oliver's best friends and how they will always have a close bond, even if they're not romantic. I'm just so discouraged. I originally came to this show for the Green Arrow. I stayed for OTA (Oliver, Diggle, Felicity) and Olicity. Now what? Edited October 22, 2016 by tv echo 11 Link to comment
calliope1975 October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 I know the S5 mantra seems to be back to basics, back to S1, but I think my problem is the execution, not the idea. It's not just an homage to S1 or more of a focus on Oliver, they're completely recreating scenes and dialogue from S1. They did it in the first ep and again with the interrogation of the drug dealer in this last ep. I'm sure I'm supposed to think it's super cool, but it just feels like a retread and my reaction is - okay, I've seen this before. What's new? It doesn't feel like the characters are evolving and that the growth seen over the past four season is being ignored. I'm sure it's difficult to produce almost 100 episodes of TV, but I'm not connecting with whatever TPTB are doing this year. Maybe once Prometheus' motivation is revealed, it'll make more sense to me. 11 Link to comment
Thundercatmary October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 Lately I have been so frustrated, between all the praise for this supposedly new and great Arrow, yet I'm just supposed to forget all of season 4? It's really not that hard, they don't have to make a choice between action and romance. Here's a really out there thought, how about learning to balance both? I don't have any interest in watching action fight after action fight if I don't even care about the characters and relationships doing the fighting. For now I'm not watching live and will probably binge watch down the road. I just don't trust the writers at this point and am constantly waiting for the next big gotcha! that won't make any sense and will leave me frustrated lol. I definitely think there is major benefits to binge watching, most of my favorite shows like Farscape, Eureka I binge watched and they are still faves of mine. Of course my other 2 faves West Wing and X-Files are like my babies and nothing could turn me against them :p 8 Link to comment
DeadZeus October 22, 2016 Share October 22, 2016 I like S5 but they are still doing stupidly weird stuff that some ppl seem to miss or not care about? Example: In episode 2 Ragman "saves" Oliver from Church. Ok, we see Ragman throw Church away and he hits a car and lies on the floor, then we cut to the roof for their conversation. Then at the end of the episode Church casually walks out of some club... Hold on... GA didn't take them to the cops, didn't tie him up to wait for the cops? What happened? We didn't see him run away from the scene, and even if we did, Oliver would really let a dangerous criminal such as him go just to test Ragman? This scene rly confused me. It's stupid writing like this that can ruin a whole episode for me. 6 Link to comment
kismet October 24, 2016 Share October 24, 2016 On 10/21/2016 at 10:03 PM, SmallScreenDiva said: Who were the people in the first season who took one look at Laurel and Oliver and said nope, saw the possibility of Original Team Arrow and went with that? Those quick changes in Season 1 are among the reasons I gave Arrow a chance, because I thought they learned quickly from their mistakes. But the storytelling in the past 3 seasons told me Season 1 was basically a fluke. Your post sparked a similar thought in me. I originally tuned in because the show looked interesting & fun. Plus SA & CD were attractive, shirts or no shirts. I stayed because I got invested in OTA & the whole secret lives saving the world. I really loved the family dynamic that OQ had with the Queens. And SA got me invested in OQ's journey from selfish playboy to selfless hero. But then gradually the show began to kill off everything and everyone I loved on the show. LL was my least favorite character on the entire series and the show has hurt and killed off so much, that they actually did the impossible and made me miss LL! Who knew her death which was 4 seasons overdue would be the straw that breaks the camels back? However, back to the point at hand... I thought Arrow was different. I thought the zeal & zest at which they plowed through stories and made bold choices was indicative of something. Turns out I was wrong. They are just your typical TV drama. All the things that I thought was special about them in earlier seasons have proven to be the outliers or fortuitous accidents. Olicity is the perfect example, I thought they would stall & would they/won't they Olicity forever. But then s3b & s4a happened and I was impressed they were willing to commit to the couple. It was that magical moment from s2 finale arc brought to fruition. Turns out I was wrong. As the seasons evolve, it seems their choices and their decision making skills are perhaps not what I thought they were. And then s5's rallying call to return to basics, made me think perhaps it would be a turn to greatness & bold choices. But if s4 & s5 are any indication, I don't think the writers are bold or unique anymore. They are just typical and cliched. All the bold moves they made in s1-2 are indicative of likely nothing - perhaps just reminiscent of faded greatnesss. Or even worse they were just flukes. Because nothing the writers have done since mid s4 or over the break has proven to me that they have any clue about what made them so great in s1-s2. It wasn't just good action scenes and masks. There was a magic to s1 & s2 that you can recreate just by casting a groups of Noobs and going through the motions. The action is better in s5 than s3/4, a low bar to cross. Bratva & decent flashbacks are a welcome return. But all these new people & relationships just don't cut it for me. I want to watch Arrow. And just because they are recreating s1/s2 scenes with a new cast does not make it Arrow. In other words, I invested in Arrow, not the knock-off version that is currently airing on Weds nights. I really used to love the show, so I will give it some time to get back the magic. At this point, the best analogy I can say is that Arrow is like that star athlete who had an amazing rookie season and is currently going through a rough time. It had promise & talent, and still has all the fundamentals - hopefully it will live up to its potential. Otherwise it will become a washed up has-been ~ I hope its more resurgent star than sidenote story, but I guess time will tell. 6 Link to comment
rtalive October 26, 2016 Share October 26, 2016 On 10/25/2016 at 1:00 AM, kismet said: Your post sparked a similar thought in me. I originally tuned in because the show looked interesting & fun. Plus SA & CD were attractive, shirts or no shirts. I stayed because I got invested in OTA & the whole secret lives saving the world. I really loved the family dynamic that OQ had with the Queens. And SA got me invested in OQ's journey from selfish playboy to selfless hero. But then gradually the show began to kill off everything and everyone I loved on the show. LL was my least favorite character on the entire series and the show has hurt and killed off so much, that they actually did the impossible and made me miss LL! Who knew her death which was 4 seasons overdue would be the straw that breaks the camels back? However, back to the point at hand... I thought Arrow was different. I thought the zeal & zest at which they plowed through stories and made bold choices was indicative of something. Turns out I was wrong. They are just your typical TV drama. All the things that I thought was special about them in earlier seasons have proven to be the outliers or fortuitous accidents. Olicity is the perfect example, I thought they would stall & would they/won't they Olicity forever. But then s3b & s4a happened and I was impressed they were willing to commit to the couple. It was that magical moment from s2 finale arc brought to fruition. Turns out I was wrong. As the seasons evolve, it seems their choices and their decision making skills are perhaps not what I thought they were. And then s5's rallying call to return to basics, made me think perhaps it would be a turn to greatness & bold choices. But if s4 & s5 are any indication, I don't think the writers are bold or unique anymore. They are just typical and cliched. All the bold moves they made in s1-2 are indicative of likely nothing - perhaps just reminiscent of faded greatnesss. Or even worse they were just flukes. Because nothing the writers have done since mid s4 or over the break has proven to me that they have any clue about what made them so great in s1-s2. It wasn't just good action scenes and masks. There was a magic to s1 & s2 that you can recreate just by casting a groups of Noobs and going through the motions. The action is better in s5 than s3/4, a low bar to cross. Bratva & decent flashbacks are a welcome return. But all these new people & relationships just don't cut it for me. I want to watch Arrow. And just because they are recreating s1/s2 scenes with a new cast does not make it Arrow. In other words, I invested in Arrow, not the knock-off version that is currently airing on Weds nights. I really used to love the show, so I will give it some time to get back the magic. At this point, the best analogy I can say is that Arrow is like that star athlete who had an amazing rookie season and is currently going through a rough time. It had promise & talent, and still has all the fundamentals - hopefully it will live up to its potential. Otherwise it will become a washed up has-been ~ I hope its more resurgent star than sidenote story, but I guess time will tell. I agree with you. Sometimes it seems the writers does not know what they are doing and are just taking chances to see if this work. The great dynamic between characters in the first seasons is lost when they decided to change and reverse places and roles. Character wise what was great for me in the first seasons was that: Laurel was the drama queen, layer Thea was the troubled sister with all her truth issues Moira was the complex but brave and devoted mother Diggle was the loyal partner Felicity was the loyal smart ass friend Sara was the bad ass equal to Arrow vigilante, but troubled and more darker Roy was the boy needed saving and turning into a sidekick Slade was the vicious devastating villain Lance was the cop and father. I liked this dynamic, but it changed. They made Laurel and Thea vigilantes, Diggle not being loyal friend and Felicity took the role of the love drama and hurt girlfriend . The rest are gone. But I think that what is true to Arrow is that the show always changes, nothing stays the same. Thea is not a vigilante any more, Lance is not a cop and so on. So maybe people should have more patience, and see if they like the new stuff. We shouldn't label from the start something as bad or boring, because no matter that it is new, it may turn to be interesting. Season two also had a lot of new characters, and some of them turned to be the best one yet. So you never know, this season could introduce also great new stuff. The shark continues to swim, so is the show. ;) :D 1 Link to comment
Mellowyellow October 26, 2016 Share October 26, 2016 Spoiler So according to the spoiler thread they really are bringing in another angry chick to be the new BC love interest! Is there even any point to watch this show anymore. Are they going to fight crime in kickass and grunt angrily at each other afterwards? Seriously? This is going to ruin even fanfic for me! Omg so distressed right now! 2 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 October 26, 2016 Share October 26, 2016 That's not a fact that's pure speculation Link to comment
Mellowyellow October 26, 2016 Share October 26, 2016 But all the spoilers!!!! *wails* Omg why did I even start watching this terrible show? It started with an angry chick as the love interest. Spoiler And will end with an angry chick as the love interest Link to comment
dtissagirl October 26, 2016 Share October 26, 2016 Maybe stop reading spoilers if they upset you like this? OR -- this is all unconfirmed stuff, but if it's bringing you pain when we're still in spec mode, maybe wait for stuff to be confirmed, at least? 6 Link to comment
SmallScreenDiva October 26, 2016 Share October 26, 2016 Putting this here because there's a lot of bitterness (rightly so, IMO). Think the title speaks for its self: Why it is hard to be a female viewer of Arrow 8 Link to comment
thegirlsleuth October 26, 2016 Share October 26, 2016 Just now, HeroLeague said: Oh yeah I forgot about Jim, Jim. Noted, you may be right about WB/DC interference. (Just curious, who are the 9 people with mask destinies on Flash on top of my head: Jesse/Barry/Wally/Cisco/Caitliin............?) I was counting all the villains, including Reverse Flash (in Wells form) and Zoom, and Firestorm in season one, but could leave off them off since we are talking about this season. Link to comment
RussianRoulette October 26, 2016 Share October 26, 2016 40 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said: Putting this here because there's a lot of bitterness (rightly so, IMO). Think the title speaks for its self: Why it is hard to be a female viewer of Arrow Thanks @SmallScreenDiva! I read the article and I cannot upvote it enough. I have a lot more to say but alas can't do it right now. Good read though! I would argue for a feminism (or lack thereof) thread. Link to comment
MuuMuuChainsmoker October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 Hi guys Please watch the spoilers for both Arrow, Flash and any other show that might come up. Link to comment
ladylaw99 October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 After watching last night's ep I realized Arrow is no longer a show I love to watch. I have been watching Arrow since the pilot. I admit I did not love the show at first, I found it boring until Diggle and Felicity. I loved OTA and then I enjoyed Olicity. I never cared for anything Lance or flashback related (that is usually when i would get a snack). The show started to grow on me and then season three happened. I hated season three. The minute Sara died I should have figured the rest of the season was going to be crap. Season 4 started off good and then that ended worst than season 3. I didn't think it was possible to hate a season more. The only shock for me was they actually killed LL. I know nothing about the comics, so I don't care about destiny or because it's in the comics. I just want a show to entertain me not make me feel like I have lost 1/2 my IQ from watching it. Season 5 hasn't been too bad. But I feel like it has lost it's spark I find it boring just like the pilot so, "Back to Basics" is not enough for me. I need at least my OTA. I am trying to be patient but I don't trust these writers. The spoilers are giving me nothing to look forward to. I guess I will have to wait and see. 13 Link to comment
kes0704 October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 For the first time ever I haven't bothered to watch an episode (504) of Arrow when it aired. It's on the DVR and I'll probably watch it at some point, but the show is no longer can't miss TV for me. I haven't instantly loved the boobs, I can't understand what they are doing with Oliver and Felicity and the relationships between characters that I enjoyed for the last four seasons seems to have been diminished or erased. When the EP's and SA said the show was going back to basics I thought it meant that they would be returning to the grounded premise of S1/2 with villains that were less magic and meta human, which I was happy about. But, for me, S5 feels like a show that has been stripped back to its shell and is now being reassembled using parts that don't quite fit together. 4 Link to comment
Popular Post dtissagirl October 27, 2016 Popular Post Share October 27, 2016 (edited) Last week we were discussing whether Curtis was still working at PT, and surprise! He's not. So here's a list of questions that I sorta would like to be minimally answered by the show soon-ish, so I'm writing them down, and let's see if they get answered, and how long does it take: - How did Felicity and Mayo meet? - When did they start dating? - Does he live in the loft, or does he just have a key? - What does she tell him she does all day long dressed up in great designer dresses and even greater shoes? - Is Felicity working any kind of real job at all? Consulting, freelance coding, anything? - Where does Oliver live? - Is it at the Bunker? - If it is -- what did he tell his security detail? Where do they think Oliver lives? - Evelyn's an orphan, WHERE ARE SOCIAL SERVICES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD? - No, really, where does she live, and with whom, and are they feeding her properly and clothing her properly and making sure she's getting good grades at school and also, getting trauma/grief counseling? - Curtis quit his job for Felicity, WHAT does he tell Paul he do all day long? - A follow-up: does Curtis wear makeup at home to hide all the bruises he got in the last 3 weeks? Is he just saying he's getting mugged every other day? - Does Wild Dog have a job? - How old is John Jr? Is he the same age as Baby Sara, and was born the exact same day under the exact same circumstances? Guggie says same age, different gender. Feel free to add new questions, and maybe we'll come back to this list every few episodes or so and see how much basic characterization we're getting. YAY PLOT DRIVEN SHOWS! Edited October 31, 2016 by dtissagirl 29 Link to comment
quarks October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 10 minutes ago, dtissagirl said: - Does he live in the loft, or does he just have a key? Allow me to ask a slightly different version of that question: does anybody have a key to that loft? Laurel's apartment did, but in more than two seasons of episodes, although we have seen (if you look very carefully) that the loft door appears to have usable locks, we have yet to to see anyone use a key to get in. In most cases, people don't even bother to knock - they just stroll right in. Or they jump through the windows. Classic example: 320. Although Thea has just been attacked by the League of Assassins, who have announced with their customary purple smoke that yes, yes, they're still around and therefore presumably could attack at any moment, meaning that Oliver really should be keeping his front door locked as he packs up those little items that everyone wants to bring to a secret lair of legendary assassins, Felicity and Diggle waltz right through the front door without even knocking, almost immediately followed by Malcolm. None of them bother to knock. Classic example: 408. Vandal Savage, never one to follow the usual standards of polite behavior, comes in through the window. Classic example: 422. Donna Smoak and the Calculator have an argument in the hallway. Donna comes in and shuts the door, proving that it doesn't have an automatic lock when Damien Darhk strolls through it a few seconds later. Classic example: 423. Oliver, presumably working from personal knowledge of just how slow the building elevators are, decides to come in through the windows. Honestly, I wouldn't blame Felicity if at this point, she's just like, you know, I could lock the door, but why bother? Why should I be the one who keeps the window repair guys of Star City fully employed? 7 Link to comment
dtissagirl October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 (edited) Haha, the curious mystery of the lock in the loft. :) Also, I do have real life answers to why Felicity and Curtis don't have jobs, and why Oliver doesn't have a place to live: there are no available sets for those things to happen. And this show is very very consistent about not writing anything AT ALL about stuff they don't have sets for. It's just... stupid. Edited October 27, 2016 by dtissagirl 6 Link to comment
thegirlsleuth October 27, 2016 Share October 27, 2016 21 minutes ago, dtissagirl said: Haha, the curious mystery of the lock in the loft. :) Also, I do have real life answers to why Felicity and Curtis don't have jobs, and why Oliver doesn't have a place to live: there are no available sets for those things to happen. And this show is very very consistent about not writing anything AT ALL about stuff they don't have sets for. It's just... stupid. They still have the campaign office--I think it was where Oliver and Ragman had their talk. What I wanted/hoped for was the Felicity with the help of Curtis would launch her startup in the empty campaign office set. In solves the in show issue of where do they get their money/how do they make excuses for hanging out in the basement all the time and the meta issue of what to do with the old set. 4 Link to comment
Mellowyellow November 1, 2016 Share November 1, 2016 I'm catching up on Shield now and FitzSimmons are just trying to rent a place together. After knowing each other for yonks! Why couldn't Arrow have done this? Why did they drive off into the sunset/propose only to blow up spectacularly with BMD!!!! Why????? If they didn't want Olicity being at the forefront they could have just written it like Shield. I think in one of the eps there was just a scene of FitzSimmons going to bed at night. They could still have left Olicity together and just have them dating without any major focus. WHY!!!! WHY!!!!!???? I think I would have been much less ragey if they didn't go for the proposal etc and then now nothing!!! After all those "You are my always" speeches now there's nothing! What was the point of going full fanfic on Olicity only to kill it???!!!! 7 Link to comment
kismet November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 Before I meticulously went through and deleted every official & media outlet Arrow related to my twitter feed... I saw this image come across my feed. I got Flashbacks to the Mighty V. And I'm sorry but this team is no Mighty Ducks... Also they never and still do not need a whole team, it just looks absurd. At least Mighty Ducks had Joshua Jackson and cheesy arcs to compensate for their cliches.... what is Arrow's excuse? Unless they were aiming for this version... And that's about all I have to say about Arrow s5 for the moment. Who knew the promo pics could inspire so many memories. I guess the general principle remains true the Sequel is often not as Good as the Original. :( 4 Link to comment
Mellowyellow November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 Are you quitting @kismet? When is everyone quitting? I'm sad! I liked you guys! It was so nice finding a bunch of fellow shippers since all my real life friends don't understand my Olicity obsession and just indulge me. They indulge but they do not understand!!!!! Link to comment
smoaksmichaelas November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 Not but honestly....is there anything left to love for fans that's been with the show from the beginning. This is a whole new show. I thought I could get over 4B but I was wrong. The bitterness just won't go away. I miss Olicity. I miss Laurel. They screwed Felicity over with that WC arc!! The newbies are boring & they continue to screw with the one person that can make me stay through anything: Felicity Smoak. Nothing left to do but be Oliver's cheerleader. She deserves better than that. Let's pray for Thea b/c if Malcolm comes back it's a wrap for her agency. I don't understand what they're doing but I'm done. This show is a mess. 10 Link to comment
emarasmoak November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 (edited) I am not watching live. There is nothing in the episodes or the promos or the spoilers that make me be interested in this show anymore. I don't care about the newbies (maybe just a little about Ragman). Felicity's only storyline is Detective Mayo as Havenrock seems to be over. Thea and Quenting stories are not particularly engaging. Digg is just one of the fighting masks who is now paying attention to one of the newbies instead of his friends. Olicity is in major stall mode. Oliver will bang someone. I don't care about any of this. I cared about Arrow when it had a smart and competent Oliver that was progressing and not regressing, a clever Felicity that was allowed to do something else than comms, team members that were more interesting (I mean Roy, Sara & Thea - as Ray and Laurel were booooooring), and I got OTA/ Olicity feelings. I cannot find any of this anymore, and good stunts are not enough for me to watch. LOA/ Talia/ Malcom? No thanks. A thousand new characters? I don't care. I will read spoilers and then will come back to this forum to find out your opinions so I can decide if I want to watch a recorded episode. I may wait to watch full season until it is in Netflix (or maybe will skip this boring part until the Olicity reunion at some point of 2017). By the way, I used to buy DVD and merchandising, but I am not doing it until I like the show again. I will not buy the S4 DVD or the Oliver's Diaries. #sorrynotsorry #tptbdonotdeservemymoney But I am not abandoning this forum. Reading you guys is comforting. Even when I am angry about Arrow, it is nice and mostly fun to read your rants and opinions. Edited November 3, 2016 by emarasmoak spelling 20 Link to comment
calliope1975 November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 3 hours ago, emarasmoak said: I cared about Arrow when it had a smart and competent Oliver that was progressing and not regressing, a clever Felicity that was allowed to do something else than comms, team members that were more interesting (I mean Roy, Sara & Thea - as Ray and Laurel were booooooring), and I got OTA/ Olicity feelings. I cannot find any of this anymore, and good stunts are not enough for me to watch. LOA/ Talia/ Malcom? No thanks. A thousand new characters? I don't care. This is where I am as well. I thought S3 would be the lowest point for me. I was wrong. At least that was a stall before Olicity had gotten together. I can't hang with what they're doing here. However, besides being a shipper, if I loved the rest of the show, I could put up with the ship stall. But I don't. I don't care about Prometheus. Russia's better than last year's flashbacks - how could it not be - but I'm not invested. Thea and Quentin? Whatevs. The boobs. Hell no. They managed to make Curtis unlikable. Diggle in hiding with the wrong child? No thanks. I won't even dignify Felicity's lack of story line or DTH with any type of response. I don't even really want to watch the crossover at the moment. Supergirl is the only show I like of the 4 right now. Mostly, I'm just really sad right now. I've quit other shows when they made me mad, but I don't know that I've had one that made me this sad before. I'm also baffled by TPTB who are all but not only telling me they don't want me as a viewer but to basically fuck off. I always assumed this first part would be rough, but I'd be back for the 2nd half of the season. I don't know that I see that happening any more. 18 Link to comment
kismet November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 11 hours ago, Mellowyellow said: Are you quitting @kismet? When is everyone quitting? I'm sad! I liked you guys! It was so nice finding a bunch of fellow shippers since all my real life friends don't understand my Olicity obsession and just indulge me. They indulge but they do not understand!!!!! I'm not quitting just yet, but its getting close. I no longer read the spoilers or the episode threads. For awhile I was reading very little of the other threads, but the red got to me. So now, I read more - but I'm still avoiding episode & spoiler threads. I'm barely hanging on by a thread to talk about poorly written and produced content might make me quit altogether. And honestly, for me there is not much to talk about. Most of s5 has simply existed as background noise. There is no content there for me to really discuss. I don't engage with the show because it gives me nothing to engage in. Everything I used to love about the show is gone. And nothing new has interested me. The writers have proven to be Lucy time and time again... And as the Charlie Brown in this scenario... I'm going to try to resist the urge to keep kicking that football. I'm tired of feeling the pain time and time again. 1 hour ago, calliope1975 said: Mostly, I'm just really sad right now. I've quit other shows when they made me mad, but I don't know that I've had one that made me this sad before. I'm also baffled by TPTB who are all but not only telling me they don't want me as a viewer but to basically fuck off. I always assumed this first part would be rough, but I'd be back for the 2nd half of the season. I don't know that I see that happening any more. I usually quit shows when I'm bored or mad. Unfortunately, I might be both at the moment. I'm holding on because I really did love the characters. But the characters are no longer important to the show. Perhaps that will change. I invested in Oliver's journey and along the way got invested in FS, Dig, OTA & QL. This season, they have proven that we are not on the same page. And frankly, the writers outside of the show have shown that they are missing the big picture. This is a first for me that I became so invested in a show, only to have it treat me with such disrespect and heartbreak. I really feel suckered. 7 Link to comment
SmallScreenDiva November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 I see what the show is trying to do and while I find it stupid it hasn't quite gotten to the point where I want to shut the TV off. It's the attitude and BTS stuff from Guggenheim and his fellow entitled nitwits that is souring my TV watching. 9 Link to comment
KirkB November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said: I see what the show is trying to do and while I find it stupid it hasn't quite gotten to the point where I want to shut the TV off. It's the attitude and BTS stuff from Guggenheim and his fellow entitled nitwits that is souring my TV watching. Fortunately, I am in a slightly better place because I pay little to no attention to the nitwits and the off screen drama. All I'm really concerned about is what I see on the show itself, and while last season was a flaming mess this season has been...meh. It's not bad, it's just kind of treading water. There is just enough action and stunts and stuff to keep me watching, and I haven't been really angered by anything recently. I'll quit if it really pisses me off or I get too bored but as it stands right now I watch mainly because it's the only interesting thing on Wednesday. Edited November 3, 2016 by KirkB Grammar Link to comment
EmeraldArcher November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 3 hours ago, calliope1975 said: Mostly, I'm just really sad right now. I've quit other shows when they made me mad, but I don't know that I've had one that made me this sad before. I'm also baffled by TPTB who are all but not only telling me they don't want me as a viewer but to basically fuck off. I always assumed this first part would be rough, but I'd be back for the 2nd half of the season. I don't know that I see that happening any more. I'm right there with you on being sad. It' the weirdest thing for me, because as others have said, it isn't that Arrow has ever been a show with overt social or artistic merits. It's been fun, and sometimes thrilling, and immersion in fandom has heightened my enjoyment. It's just been my thing for so long. But now, I'm confronted by all of the ways they're telling us that women don't matter: from erasing Sara Diggle to denying Felicity a POV in-show to basically telling us to fuck off on social media and in interviews. I'm sad because I feel like I'm compromising my values if I continue watching, even as I know there's not much left I want to see. For as much as MG and OB were throwing around the word "disrespect" last night, the only one I feel I've disrespected is myself by continuing in this toxic relationship with a show that's made it clear I'm not valued as a fan. 18 Link to comment
kismet November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Thundercatmary said: Well I just hope the writers are careful, you can only push your audience so far before their gone for good. Despite my annoyance etc I do like most of the case and want them and the show to do well. ^^from the fanfic section^^ Sadly I get the feeling they don't care if they lose a portion of the audience. They are going for the general audience and perhaps the comics crowd. The "shippers" and probably even the LL fans are not important to them. Since females most likely made up the bulk of the perceived "shippers" or LL, sadly, to me that comes off as not really caring about losing females. And that sinking possibility makes me angry and sad. Perhaps Sangry is the best word. I always thought Arrow did a better job treating their females as equals. But now with their recurrent female problems both BTS and on the show, that might not be the case. Let's look at how females have fared since s4. Laurel Killed because of her father's deal with DD. Not even given a hero's death Her big storyline for s4 was a failed court case Made into a tagline and an ugly statue The disastrous Resurrection of Sara Lance story Her deathbed scene was all about OQ and a rather stilted/offensive/sexist confession of unrequited love. I think the new male DA has been shown and done more lawyer-y things in his few minutes than LL did for most of s3 or s4. Felicity For the 2nd time, FS's entire character development is a new boyfriend, only this time without the job promotion. Spends her time doing comms or male propping when she is a confirmed Genius with multiple degrees from an Tech IVY school. Havenrock is blamed on FS, and then her dealing with it is essentially to give Ragman back his purpose. No POV on the breakup, her loss of PT, or even the new sleeves, even her big BF reveal was given to the new guy in a mask. Paralyzed for Plot, no real follow-through on her injury or recovery Miraculously healed by a male's invention so she can literally walk out on OQ as opposed to be seen as a strong woman even if she had to roll out. At least they don't damsel her? Well that could be because they don't let her doing anything outside of a male story that would let her be damseled. Thea Everything with Malcolm is disgusting regarding feminism. Runs the Mayoral Office, with little recognition - why didn't she just run for Mayor (oh thats right she doesn't have a penis) Gives up her mask because of her emotions Reporter Lady Uses her flirty flirt instead of her brain Shown to have little professionalism Baby Mama Portrayed as a horrible woman who slept with her close friend's boyfriend Designed a ridiculous ultimatum to help protect OQ's character and create unnecessary melodrama Missed opportunity to portray a strong single mother who was was just trying to do right by her kid and was able to have mutually respectful relationship with the father of her child's fiance Artemis Besides her stealing LL's stuff plot does anyone know anything about her? Oh right, she's an orphan. Barely no focus on her story or her training - the new guys have been given multiple spotlights. Do we even know how she got her nickname? Brought onto the show as Canary light, because perhaps in the writers' minds its absolutely impossible to bring on a female character as simply a new character, they have to make her imitate another female or be genetically or sexually connected to a male. Russian Lady in Red Dress in bar Not really a big complaint, but did anyone else notice that she looked a lot like Felicity? You can't even cast an extra without referencing another female? The red dress and the hair were so close to the date look in s3. Poppy So poorly brought to the screen, that people did not even know her name! Paid to breath onscreen and get OQ to Russia. Really that's the best the writers can do for an entire season? Donna Smoak Lied to her daughter for plot, then was hypocritical with QL over lying & morals. Cut from the show because apparently without sleeping with QL there is no purpose for her to be on the show. At least she got a shout-out and helped QL fall off the wagon. The whole Noah Cutler situation, I think painted her in a very bad light. Nyssa Forced into a marriage as part of her father's patriarchal misogyny, technically s3 - but they could have given her an annulment in s4 Jailed for plot and forgotten about. Most of LoA crap was just disrespectful to her in s3 & s4. Deemed unfit to be leader of LoA because she does not have a penis. Lyla At least she got to be kickass, even if it was to break out her husband from an absurd for plot storyline. Female Directors Either passed over for questionable male talent or not pursued enough to overcome why so many females turn them down Sara Diggle And lastly let's not forget the biggest and most offensive writer's choice - eliminating an entire Female Character for no real or valid reason. FP didn't eliminate the existence of anyone even on its origin show. Cisco's brother died, he didn't just vanish into oblivion because he lacked a penis. Never forget Sara Diggle! Listen, I don't know if it's intentional or not. This trend though is starting to concern me. Females used to be important to Arrow on & off screen, or at least I thought they were. I remember Moira, Shado & Sara being given quality stories and screentime. TQ & FS used to have a narrative purpose besides propping MM or OQ. I'm neither a shipper or necessarily even a feminist. I just want decent, enjoyable, fun and balanced story telling. However, Arrow is making it clear to me that I am not an appreciated or possibly even a wanted fan. I knew I was never their target audience. But, I never felt targeted as being unimportant and disposable - until now. The writers want to talk about disrespect, perhaps they should look a little closer to home. A lot of these frustrations come from their story choices and not the audience's expectations. Perhaps their mentions and social media would not be filled with so much hate and disrespect if they gave some of their actions and choices more thought. This is not an Olicity or shipper issue, its a systemic problem on how they are treating females in the Arrowverse. In my perspective, it feels like something is broken and rather than fix it, they are obsessed with spreading blame as to who broke what. At the end of the day, I hope they fix it. I'm just losing my faith in them being able to do it for multiple reasons. Edited November 4, 2016 by kismet Forgot about Nyssa 17 Link to comment
Mellowyellow November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 @tv echo Thanks for being a trooper and posting all the articles and spoilers! I actually thought you had quit since nothing cropped up from you for a bit after 505! 1 Link to comment
tv echo November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 You're welcome. Yeah, I'm still hanging in, but it's difficult. 4 Link to comment
Popular Post Carrie Ann November 4, 2016 Popular Post Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Belinea said: What is there left to root for? Who am I supposed to root for? I always assumed that whether it is in a movie, a show or even a book the initial idea is that you connect with a character and you root for them to succeed in their respective storyline. But the show took away a lot of heart and now what am I left to do? Oliver will beat Prometheus, Diggle's storyline is confusing but he will get out of his situation. Felicity/ Quentin/Thea don't really have something to do to write home about. And on top of that the emotional arcs don't exist either at this point. Am I supposed to root for Felicity and her 5 second booty call BF? Am I supposed to root for Oliver getting laid by as many women as possible in the shortest amount of time possible? Should I care about any of the newbies? Should I root for them in their quest to do what exactly? This really nails it for me. Of course the team will defeat the bad guys. That's not why I watch the show. I only care about the plots insofar as they service the characters, their growth, and their relationships. Right now, I'm at a loss as to the emotional/growth arcs of any of the "core characters." The only development I see is in Quentin and Thea, which is why I'm enjoying those scenes. Otherwise, DR's comments Spoiler make it sound like we should expect very little OTA or Dig/Felicity through 511. So, I'm supposed to be invested in his pointless fugitive status, his brand new son whose existence I resent, and his burgeoning relationship with my least favorite boob. No thanks. Oliver is back to believing he doesn't know how to be Oliver Queen and needs to learn how to do that! How wonderful. When they started talking about him being a shit mayor over the hiatus, I hoped it was overblown, but in fact his regression extended to every area of his life--including as the GA where he's back to killing and domineering. At this point, I don't even find it frustrating anymore that they refuse to allow him to retain any personal growth; I just find it tedious. I just can't engage with his learning how to be a real boy story anymore. He was a completely different person in S4 and his reversion makes no sense. They would have needed to pin it to Flashpoint for it to be believable. I appreciate the way they've handled Felicity's role in the lair and with the new team, but I don't care enough about the new team for that to make much impact. Her Havenrock "story" is over. She has no job. She has a boyfriend I can't possibly be expected to GAF about, let alone invest in their relationship beyond counting the minutes until it's over. And I viewed 505 as a way for the writers to stop telling ANY kind of story between O/F for the foreseeable future. They want to have other LIs without any O/F ~drama~ so they cleared the air in order to not have to spend any time on that going forward. And I mean, the only way I could tolerate watching stories with other LIs is if I see how it affects the other person in the relationship I actually care about and spent four seasons investing in. This isn't just ship-stalling, it's story-stalling. I like the idea of Oliver (and D/F to a lesser extent) mentoring and managing new vigilantes, and I appreciate that the boobs have mostly been backgrounded, but it feels like the show will now expect them to carry some emotional weight--whether on their own or in concert with the "core characters"--and they can't. Wild Dog and Evelyn are total busts for me. I appreciate Curtis in small doses, and in his very occasional role as Person Felicity Talks To, but am not invested in his transformation to Mr. Terrific. Rory is the only one I actually like. It feels like the writers put all of their eggs in the newbie basket, and that was a risk that has not paid off. I don't care about their individual development. I don't care about their relationships with OTA, I don't care about their relationships with each other. What's left? That's basically my feeling about the show in general right now. What's left? Edited November 4, 2016 by Carrie Ann 28 Link to comment
Popular Post RussianRoulette November 4, 2016 Popular Post Share November 4, 2016 (edited) In the wise words of FS "We all joined clubs we wished we hadn't". As I am starting to regret my long time investment in Arrow, I'm still planning on using my bitterness membership card. I wish this post would come from a place of apathy or rage but it really is more of a "nostalgic" (for lack of a better word) "could have been" feeling. I think I finally reached my breaking point with this show. It has everything to do with the fact that I hardly recognize the show or the characters anymore. Worst of all, I do not understand the point of Oliver's journey at this point. Is there still a point? Quite frankly, this breaking point is also due to BTS shenanigans. I consider myself as a pragmatic individual and an experienced (or let's be blunt expert) TV show consumer. I consider the others (on SM, fora, even the general audience) to be as well. Therefore, I take offense with MG and other writers comments, who basically give the middle finger to the fans and to "shippers", as if 1. it were a bad word , 2. there was a "right" way to watch the show and 3. there is a need to explain the writing process, in case we are all too stupid to understand. Newsflash: if there is a need to explain, there is something clearly lacking in the writing/storytelling department. Arrow is hardly a riddle to decipher. In light of those comments, these past few days, I asked myself, would my viewing experience be better, if say, I wasn't reading spoilers, or news items, or SM. And the answer is a clear, no. My bitterness doesn't stem from anticipation but rather from what has been told (and not shown) and what has been told and retconned. It all boils down to bad storytelling, lack of consistency, nonsensical characterization, blah blah blah, all the problem we already discussed many times. Still, we live in an age of social media, of virtual interactions (and physical ones also, e.g. Cons) amongst fans and showrunners, and the CW just misses the point of all of this. So I am sure they are happy that "shippers" spend their hard-earned $$$ on merch, cons, etc. They just acknowledge shippers when they have something to sell. Oh and for click baiting. As an aparte, the viewing experience and the creative experience have also changed these past few years. They fail to understand that, but in this economic world it means, adapt or die. But they seem to be happy about the ratings - which, good for them!- so they managed to find a core audience that will watch no matter what. I have a lot more things to say about it, but quite frankly I am tired, hangover, and just a tiny bit sad . I rage-quit shows before, which were smarter and better written (Veronica Mars, Buffy.) Better make use of my bitterness membership card next time! And btw, show, I'm breaking up with you, but it's not me, it's you. P.S. I am quite envious of all the people that are optimistic. I want that too! P.P.S: I love the snark and smartass comments of this forum so I will still follow and comment! Thank you! Edited November 4, 2016 by RussianRoulette 25 Link to comment
Mellowyellow November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Carrie Ann said: And I viewed 505 as a way for the writers to stop telling ANY kind of story between O/F for the foreseeable future. They want to have other LIs without any O/F ~drama~ so they cleared the air in order to not have to spend any time on that going forward. And I mean, the only way I could tolerate watching stories with other LIs is if I see how it affects the other person in the relationship I actually care about and spent four seasons investing in. This isn't just ship-stalling, it's story-stalling. I think if I could stomach a few more episodes it would be interesting to see how they handle Olicity. If they both act like Lauriver did after their shipdeath then we'll know it's definitely not a ship stall and it's a done deal. What I'm intrigued with is when shippers would eventually drop it and accept that it's a done deal. I'd love to know what your run of the mill Arrow watcher thinks. When Person of Interest killed Carter and introduced Shaw I was reading a forum where the fans were super mad. As a person who enjoyed but didn't care much about POI I loved Shaw and loved the new direction of POI. It'll be interesting to see where Arrow heads. ETA: OMG I realised I can blame all my shipping problems on Barry! I watched Flash and found Felicity and that made me watch Arrow which I had always assumed was a dodgy show and would NEVER have watched had I not seen Felicity. This is all Barry's fault! Edited November 4, 2016 by Mellowyellow 4 Link to comment
Popular Post dtissagirl November 4, 2016 Popular Post Share November 4, 2016 (edited) I'm having a weird problem with Oliver this season, and this week I realized it's the same problem I had with him in S1 -- I simply don't buy Steve's acting when Oliver is emotionally constipated. And that's what he feels like in present time scenes again, and it feels like a deliberate character choice [and acting choices] only in present time scenes, because I'm not bothered by Russian flashbacks Oliver. It feels like robot arms S1 Oliver is back, thankfully without the actual robot arms, but this detached Oliver doesn't work for me because I don't see him as a real character as much as I see Actor Stephen Amell trying to deliberately constraint himself to the max in every possible way. And... I'm pretty sure it's connected to the decision of going full-on noromo on O/F, and because of the boobs. Because O/F was the biggest thing that made Steve soften Oliver up on purpose, AND the character choices/acting choices for how Oliver deals with the boobs are taking me right out of the narrative. Part of it is none of them have great chemistry with SA, and he IS an actor that really needs his scene partners to be more giving than he is. Only Joe Dinicol is that kind of actor. The other three aren't. And so I get some great disconnect during their scenes -- instead of engaging with the story, I'm wondering what the hell is robot S1 Oliver doing in S5. Edited November 4, 2016 by dtissagirl 28 Link to comment
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