Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[chaos is welcome]

I am bitter we haven't gotten any really good, no frills, no wire work stunts too.  (Katana notwithstanding-she's been awesome).  My fav scenes in Season 1 were Oliver 1.  Jumping rooftops and rolling in the ep where Roy gets kidnapped.  2.  Jumping over crap on his way to break the necks of the dudes who kidnapped him and tommy and 3.  pretty much every rooftop fighting scene in Season 1.  I felt like so many of the fight sequences in S2 were just meh, with the exception of Slade + Oliver and sticks and that badass training scene of Sara/Dig/Oliver.  Season 3 hasn't had any wow fighting moments.  Just FLIPS.

[tv echo]

Here's something ironic...

 

Last season Laurel was basically upstaged by Felicity both as the leading lady and in popularity, and the EPs then said something about how they were going to reward KC (and the forgotten WH) for patiently waiting so long for Laurel's big storyline this season. 

 

Now in 310 and 311 which emphatically launched Laurel as the new Black Canary in Oliver-lite episodes, most of the rave acting reviews have been about... surprise, EBR's portrayal of Felicity.  (So where's MG's "Emmy-worthy" comment about EBR's performance?) 

 

It's a nice rebuttal to detractors who dismissed Felicity as comic relief or a one-note character.

Edited February 2, 2015 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

I think those reviews support that the EPs were right to move the emphasis away from Laurel and on to Felicity. She even cries better.

 

I'm bitter what they've done to Felicity and Diggle to make Laurel become BC.  But it's worked for them to some extent, there are a lot of people excited for Laurel's BC, and many accepting of it in the sense of 'if we have to have it, at least it's not too bad'.

 

I hope this emphasis on doesn't continue because I still have no interest in the Green Arrow/Black Canary show, and I'm really afraid that's what it's going to be from now on.  With only one episode in the trilogy done, I've reached my Laurel quota.

[kismet]

I'm not sure if this is for the Bitterness thread or not. But in reading some of the other threads I have come across a common theme. The writers seem to reference many of the characters having serious psychological problems like PTSD, addiction, abandonment, trust - the list could go on. I know I made a joke earlier that a tagline of the show could be we're not as "emotionally healthy" as you are, which I think is true and makes for good television drama. What I find challenging is the given this great opportunity to show these struggles that many people can relate to, the writers instead choose to brush over them or only use them for plot. These are serious problems that impact people in reality not just TVland. Imagine your at home suffering from anyone of these ailments either directly or indirectly, wouldn't you hope the show would not half-ass it? Now, Im not advocating for a PSA after all the shows, like is commonly done on the big themed episodes of other shows. What Im asking for is little bit of respect towards the story and the real suffering that occurs. I wish they would consider this when they write some of their stories and their characters. I wish they would take a psych course or consult with real clinicians that deal with these issues on a real life basis. It would make ARROW a more impactful show. It would also make their story telling stronger and more realistic. Theoretically I totally get Oliver's behavior/control issues, Laurel's downward spiral into the darkness/addiction, Felicity's unwillingness to admit feelings as a means of protecting herself and Thea's willingness to train with Malcolm. But most of the reason why I understand those character choices has nothing to do with the script, but rather because I have studied it, seen it in real life or experienced it. The ARROW writers need to do better in terms of showing, and not just expecting the audience to get it cuz they told us it or drop the big word to explain it. The Left Behind episode was beautiful because it displayed the many stages of grief, but that was a lot of the acting choices and social media that brought that message home. The EP & writers are given this wonderful opportunity to tell stories, I wish they would focus more on that than plots. Like they said in season 2, life is not for the weak. I wish they would take that to heart and consider showing accurate portrayals and emotional fallout from some of these bad things more often. It doesn't have to be all bright/cheery, resolved or preachy, it just has to be better than of yeah that stupid thing they did it was cuz they have ##, alright next plot. I consider myself an intelligent engaged TV watcher, I will continue to watch Arrow because I saw promise in S1 (and many emotional beats were well-written, realistic & in character/plot), parts of S2, not so much in S3 but I think the promise is there. They just need to stop considering how many bad things can we do to these characters, and start showing more the repercussions of all these bad things happening to them. There is no reward or return on all of their crazy schemes, if in the end the audience & the characters don't emotionally change as a result of them. If the audience does not feel that it was emotionally realistic or compelling. We shouldn't have to refer to outside sources to understand our character's journeys, not when they suffer from many real-life problems. Otherwise its just a bucket list of a really bad day. I want them to stop trying to cut the scene when it actually starts to hit that emotionally rawness that hurts. I'd rather be mad that they went there, as opposed to now where they just gloss over everything.

Edited February 2, 2015 by kismet

[pootlus]

Last season Laurel was basically upstaged by Felicity both as the leading lady and in popularity, and the EPs then said something about how they were going to reward KC (and the forgotten WH) for patiently waiting so long for Laurel's big storyline this season. 

It's a nice rebuttal to detractors who dismissed Felicity as comic relief or a one-note character.

 

I'd have more sympathy for KC if she'd started working her butt off in the dojo & gym the moment she was cast, and throwing herself into promo-ing the show all along, reading about Black Canary and doing her level best to be the embodiment of her on screen even if she wasn't actually wearing the fishnets.  Instead it seems like she's being rewarded for essentially being a sulky child.  She can't help the zero chemistry with Amell - she could, and should have done something about the rest.  Instead she made it easy for them to shove the character of Laurel into the background because the show lost nothing by doing so.

[Morrigan2575]

Something I've noticed and I can't tell if it's un-originality, thinking hey it worked with Sara/Felicity lets' give it to Laurel too or if KC has a running list of demands to make it up to her for making her wait to be BC and giving her competition in the form of Sara.  However, they seem to be repeating a lot of previous scenes/situations with Laurel.

 

Laurel/Sara

Sara uses Oliver's bow to save them in 204, Laurel uses Oliver's bow in 221 to save them

Sara goes flying out a window using her LOA cloth thing to save her life, Laurel jumps out a window and climbs/hangs onto a rope from a helicopter

Sara's first appearance she jumps in at the end of 201 and beats up a bunch of bad guys, Laurel shows up at end of 310 and beats up a bad guy (did they use the bird chirps?)

Based on the promo for this week

Laurel rides on the back of Oliver's bike (driven by Roy) and in S2, Sara used to ride on the back of Oliver's bike

 

Laurel/Felicity

Felicity/Oliver jump out a window to get away from bad guys in 201, Laurel/Oliver jump out of a window in 211 to get away from "bad guys"

Felicity/Oliver bridal carry scene in 222, Laurel/Oliver bridal carry scene in 306

 

Any others?

 

There are of course some reversals, Laurel gave Ollie the know you in my bones speech in 220 and Felicity gives the I know 2 things speech in 222.

 

I just can't help be laugh at the idea of a checklist, hey we did x, y, z with Sara/Felicity so we have to do that with Laurel too. 

Edited February 3, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

Something I've noticed and I can't tell if it's un-originality, thinking hey it worked with Sara/Felicity lets' give it to Laurel too or if KC has a running list of demands to make it up to her for making her wait to be BC and giving her competition in the form of Sara.  However, they seem to be repeating a lot of previous scenes/situations with Laurel.

 

I just can't help be laugh at the idea of a checklist, hey we did x, y, z with Sara/Felicity so we have to do that with Laurel too. 

 

That's what I was thinking too when I saw some of the promo shots. They seem to think that "hey, it worked for Felicity and Sara, lets do the exact same things with Laurel and people will like her too". They really have no idea how to make Laurel relevant and it shows every single time they try. 

 

It's the same thing again, they are putting Laurel places to make her happen, only they had to push everyone else off the board to accomplish that. I also love how they think if they show Laurel messing up two times, that's enough failure for her and now she can be as much of a badass as Oliver and Sara. 

 

I'm also bitter that here we have CL joining a new martial arts school but we're stuck with Cassidy who is going to award shows with her boyfriend and cancelling Con appearances. 

[chaos is welcome]

And STILL skipping leg day. 

 

Sorry, couldn't resist, bc I am forever bitter

[wonderwall]

I asked MG this question on tumblr, hopefully he responds:

 

 

When will Felicity get her own story arc that isn’t about propping others?  I loved the Secret Origin episode, but I want to see her character grow in the present and for the future in a storyline about her. I’ve been disappointed by the lack of focus on that in Season 3 and started off really excited about what was ahead for her character beyond the “love interest” or the IT support “safely tucked behind her keyboard".

 

I'm gonna keep asking until he responds :p Childish, sure. But I don't care

[statsgirl]

I just tweeted him the link to Robert Doughtery pre-emptive rant.  He needs to know this stuff.

 

Regardless of what I think about the writing on this show, I absolutely do believe that they didn't consider/anticipate certain audience reactions, or thought the audience would take something one way only to have the audience take it a totally different way, or anticipated some audience reaction, but underestimated it. 

But there have been enough people saying the same thing that they shouldn't be surprised about it.  I do think there is an increasing feeling that "haters gonna hate" when it comes to Laurel and they only pay attention to those who love her.

 

True, and in this particular case, from Guggenheim's wording, I'm pretty sure they did anticipate a negative reaction to the Laurel pretending to be Sara for her father. Just underestimated how bad it would be.  After all, Laurel did several other questionable things in that episode - telling a witness that she could charge him with anything, getting that alderman killed, and putting a helicopter at risk - but most of the criticism focused on the deception, not the alderman's death.

Something I don't understand is why they keep giving Laurel those questionable actions when they really need her to be a moral person to make this InstaCanary arc work.  Why are they writing the character as someone who it would be easier to make into Manhunter than the morally good Black Canary?

 

We'll see how it plays out. It would be great if Laurel's consequences for this action fit the crime, but I have no expectation of that.

I saw MG's comment that there will absolutely be repercussions, but that came after he was inundated with comments about how awful this was, and I seriously doubt anything tangible or meaningful will happen to Laurel, let alone the rest of the team. PB said that Quentin won't be happy about Laurel's BC stuff, but that he realizes that fighting her and telling her she can't do something will not work, so he just has to sort of grit his teeth and bear it. Doesn't sound like anything lasting going on there.

I don't think that's a spoiler but I'll leave it in spoiler quotes just in case.

 

Like the bizarreness of Laurel being so morally ambiguous and it never being addressed, there are never real repercussions for Laurel.  She is the '13' (House reference) of this show, a character much disliked who gets away with what other characters cannot, and an actress for whom they give more concessions than to other actors.

 

 

I forgot that everyone abandoned Quentin except for her. She suffered, suffered, suffered.

 

Actually, it was everyone abandoned Dinah, who then packed up and went to Central City. Quentin buried himself in his work, Laurel moved out and went to law school and Dinah was left alone.  But they have to believe in Poor Laurel to justify her actions in s1.

 

I'd have more sympathy for KC if she'd started working her butt off in the dojo & gym the moment she was cast, and throwing herself into promo-ing the show all along, reading about Black Canary and doing her level best to be the embodiment of her on screen even if she wasn't actually wearing the fishnets.  Instead it seems like she's being rewarded for essentially being a sulky child.  She can't help the zero chemistry with Amell - she could, and should have done something about the rest.  Instead she made it easy for them to shove the character of Laurel into the background because the show lost nothing by doing so.

I've been saying for 2 seasons that if KA wants to be the Black Canary, she should have started working out when she got the LL role, not when Sara died.

 

She didn't just make it easy for them to shove Laurel into the background, she made it necessary if the show was going to continue.  But it does seem that they're rewarding her for "her patience" now (what about poor Willa Holland?) and once again, I'm asking, Does she have blackmail info on them or what?

[strikera0]

Something I've noticed and I can't tell if it's un-originality, thinking hey it worked with Sara/Felicity lets' give it to Laurel too or if KC has a running list of demands to make it up to her for making her wait to be BC and giving her competition in the form of Sara. 

 

Honestly, I think it's simply un-originality on part of the writers. Just look at Oliver/Felicity this season. Many of their scenes this year have been copied from the Oliver/Laurel arc in season 1.

[poetgirl925]

There was a Laurel/Oliver bridal carry scene in 3x06? Lol I must really be blocking or repressing stuff on this show at this point because I have absolutely zero recollection of that, and it sounds hilariously awkward since those two are about as interesting to watch together as it would be to watch paint dry. I hate to say it, but I don't give the show my full attention like I used to. The only way I can justify watching more than an hour of TV per day is to multitask - so now Arrow viewing gets combined with cooking, eating dinner, laundry, or treadmill time. At first I thought that was why I didn't understand the point of the flashbacks this season. Then I got around to checking reviews again after 3x10 aired and it seems I'm not alone in my confusion.

[AyChihuahua]

 

There was a Laurel/Oliver bridal carry scene in 3x06?

He carried her out of and away from her burning car, which she intentionally crashed, because she's so incredibly focused and such an amazing budding vigilante that doing so was the only thing she could think of to save her and Shiny!TrainerBoy from that terrible actor playing the VoTW.  Totally leaving aside the fact that if Arrow hadn't gotten her out of the burning car and bridal-carried her away, her brilliant idea would have ended in her fiery death.

 

I had a few thoughts last night when I was trying to sleep and instead stewing over this show.  The thing that drives me so crazy about Laurel constantly in trouble, v. Felicity, is that most of Laurel's risks are reckless and stupid, whereas I think most of Felicity's were calculated, and she usually had backup arranged.  They both get kidnapped a lot, but in Felicity's case it's not usually a direct result of her stupidity and childish stubbornness.

Edited February 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[poetgirl925]

Ah, it was that Laurel and Ted Grant episode? That explains it. I fell asleep watching that one lol (really.) I woke up towards the end and knew the car crashed, but missed the other part. When I asked my friend what I missed, he said nothing interesting and just hit the highlights.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm not surprised, it was a terrible episode.  Lots of focus on Laurel.  The boxing glove arrow was awesome, though.

[Starfish35]

He carried her out of and away from her burning car, which she intentionally crashed, because she's so incredibly focused and such an amazing budding vigilante that doing so was the only thing she could think of to save her and Shiny!TrainerBoy from that terrible actor playing the VoTW. Totally leaving aside the fact that if Arrow hadn't gotten her out of the burning car and bridal-carried her away, her brilliant idea would have ended in her fiery death.

I never commented on that episode because I watched it so long after the fact. But....yeah. One thing that struck me in that ending scene where she talks to Ted about how she felt no fear? I was watching that thinkIng, wow, this girl's a bit unhinged. I doubt that's what KC and the writers were going for - I think they were going for passionate and determined. But that's not how it came across to me. If I was Ted, I would have been backing away slowly saying, girl you need a therapist, not a trainer. :(

This is one of the big problems with the character for me, because there is such a disconnect sometimes between how the character comes across because of how KC plays it, and what I think was supposed to be the intention of the scene. Those two things just clash, and throw me right out of the story.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Starfish35

[Hook75]

I do not GAF about BR, Ray, the Atom or his dumb costume. Get him the f@ck away from my screen & my show!

 

I watch ARROW. GIVE ME THE ARROW!!!!!!!

 

I'm so sick of it!

[Tangerine]

That's the thing. They could have done something REALLY interesting with Laurel and played to KC's strengths by making her this sort of unhinged, fanatical, morally grey character that didn't involve 1) tarnishing the original Black Canary character and 2) sacrificing a character that had already embodied Black Canary so very well. There were so many creative ways they could have made Laurel more interesting and given her an original storyline that I would have been intrigued by. They already showed Laurel had a darkness to her, but they keep insisting that she's all about doing good and justice, which makes me think that the writers are treating me like an idiot because there is such a disconnect between what I'm seeing and what they're telling me. 

 

Right now, Maseo and Tatsu are the only two characters I'm remotely interested in. And I am just sitting here waiting for the writers to screw them up because WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Tangerine

[KenyaJ]

I do not GAF about BR, Ray, the Atom or his dumb costume. Get him the f@ck away from my screen & my show!

 

I actually unfollowed all the official Arrow and producers accounts I was following on Twitter yesterday. My disenchantment with this season had slowly been driving me to that point, but all the self-congratulations about Ray's suit drove me over the edge. If they'd spent half the time trying to make him an interesting character that they did designing his suit, maybe I'd feel differently. But it reminded me that these producers and writers think costume = characterization. At a fundamental level, there are so many characterization problems with both Ray and Laurel that need fixing, but TPTB think they don't have to bother doing that work as long as they can slap a costume on Ray and Laurel and tell us they're heroes now. Obviously, there's a portion of the audience for whom that's worked, but it's not working for me.

 

The show hasn't given me any reason to be invested in Ray or his "hero's journey." Seeing TPTB act like the reveal of his costume was some epic event the fans have been clamoring for reinforced that they've totally lost the plot.

[Shanna]

I'm still debating whether i should watch tonight. On the plus side, lots of Malcolm (right?) possible Mateo and tatsu...

Negative side, I hate all the other stories right now.

[wonderwall]

I'm in love with this rant:

...Arrow is a great show; the action; the photography; the story…they could do with a Lil help on character development…but that’s for another rant. But let’s face it…Stephen is a massive reason for the success of Arrow…not just because he works his ass off to give a great performance but because he works his ass off to connect with the fans. Admit it…There are times you wanna quit the show but you stay coz of loyalty to Stephen. For the most parts, Arrow comes through and the show is great…but it feels like CW have found the goose that lays the golden egg. I feel like this is the convo happening with ALL the execs currently.

"Wanna do a new superhero show?…Great let’s use Arrow to introduce them…oooh look how the Arrow fandom gravitated to The Flash…great, now let’s just throw ALL the super hereos in there and make it one big ensemble cast and give Stephen less screen time and wait…We have Felicity so that’s great she’s a fan fav…well get the audience to love all these new peeps by throwing her in the mix with them…thereby, making her almost unrecognisable…but don’t sweat it. Stephen our good;loyal; hard working star is going to do his job; keep promoting and keep plugging these guys….Coz he’s just swell like that."

I mean I get what they were doing with Oliver being gone…The mess that is everyone trying to still do right and fight on in his abscence…they paralleled how you aren’t always smooth and slick like Arrow…The flashbacks show us the evolution of the Arrow, how he, like them now, wasn’t always slick and smooth…It would be brilliant if there weren’t such sticky points with the actors and plot….*side eyeing whoever thought it was ok to have Diggle; a war veteran; stand down to Laurel Lance* but that’s another rant.

Right now, I’m just hoping that this whole big overwhelming superhero convention happening in the Foundery comes to an end soon…take your name tags…Robocop suit*cough* I mean Atom suit; your buckles *whoever designed Roy and BC’S #8217 suit clearly has a fetish* and go back to your lives.

By all means Executives keep introducing comic book characters but don’t do it at the expense of what the show is about…This is isn’t Justice League or Young Titans…If you wanted that…go make a show about it. This is Arrow…can we get back to that please. - Source

Edited February 4, 2015 by wonderwall

[tv echo]

I noticed in the new Tumblr postings by MG that he's received fan complaints about the show not being about Oliver/Arrow any more, about how it's turning into the Atom and BC show, about Diggle being sidelined and turned into the comm guy, and about Felicity & Diggle becoming props for other characters.

Edited February 4, 2015 by tv echo

[BumpSetSpike]

 

Admit it…There are times you wanna quit the show but you stay coz of loyalty to Stephen.

 

Guilty (and because of David Ramsey too).  My two kids won't even watch it with me anymore because they have completely lost interest in Arrow this season.

Edited February 4, 2015 by BumpSetSpike

[Kordi]

Admit it…There are times you wanna quit the show but you stay coz of loyalty to Stephen.

YES!!! Exactly!!!

[tennisgurl]

I wouldn't say I quite there yet...but I feel like, if things keep moving in the path that they have been, I might end up staying more due to loyalty to the actors, and the memories of the great characters they created. And waiting around to see if MG actually listens to fans/critics/everyone ever, and makes this a show about Stephen and his brilliant portrayal of Oliver Queen and his immediate circle, the way its supposed to be. Of course, I think all TV fans have learned that what the People in Charge want, and what Everyone Else wants, tends to be different things... 

[BumpSetSpike]

SA just posted this on Facebook:
So... you know, I think tonight's Arrow might be a little more Arrowy than the last few episodes.

 

It better be because I'm sick of the Buckles and Atom show.

[Shanna]

SA just posted this on Facebook:

So... you know, I think tonight's Arrow might be a little more Arrowy than the last few episodes.

It better be because I'm sick of the Buckles and Atom show.

I hope so! I guess I should watch since I'm sure I'll be skipping anything with canary in the title.

[wonderwall]

What's sad is the Felicity hate is beginning. People are calling her a bitch, terrible, the worst, and how they hate her and blah blah blah. Very sad.

[NumberCruncher]

What's sad is the Felicity hate is beginning. People are calling her a bitch, terrible, the worst, and how they hate her and blah blah blah. Very sad.

It was inevitable. I knew this was going to happen which is why I have refused to watch the last couple of episodes--I couldn't stand watching the writers/EPs run her character into the ground for plot contrivance purposes. Heaven forbid they keep Felicity awesome.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Are these Felicity fans doing this or people who already hate her?  Not sure what people are upset about, I didn't think she did anything questionable at all this episode.

[insubordination]

Stuck to my vow of not watching the episode even though Sin was on it. It's actually a relief not to watch. I'd be like Quentin reaching for the heart pills. Have missed 3 eps now.

 

I don't want to start disliking Felicity and if I wanted to see non-threatening buckles, I'd watch Michael Jackson's 'Bad' clip. I didn't think this show could get any worse after 2B, but man was I wrong.

[bluebonnet]

There is actually nothing to dislike Felicity in this episode.  She stood up for morality and she stood up for herself.  Can't imagine why any Felicity fans would consider this "running her character into the ground."  Felicity's whole thing is she doesn't take shit from people.  What's changed?

[Chaser]

Are these Felicity fans doing this or people who already hate her?  Not sure what people are upset about, I didn't think she did anything questionable at all this episode.

I have no idea. I'm assuming Haters. Felicity/Diggle/Sin were the only ones on with their head on straight.

[tv echo]

Ignore it.  Felicity haters are going to seize on any excuse to pile on the hate and run with it.

[wonderwall]

Nah, Felicity did NOTHING WRONG. She stood up for what she believed in. And to be quite frank, most of the hate I've seen was from male viewers. Because heaven forbid a woman be rightfully angry at a person she loves for making the stupidest decision which disrespects another woman he loves (Thea). 

 

I just wish the scene was longer because it made Felicity seem irrational (which she wasn't). One second she was happy he was back, the next she was angry. If they drew the scene out longer I'm sure it would've been better. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

 

It's actually a relief not to watch. I'd be like Quentin reaching for the heart pills. Have missed 3 eps now.

Same here.  I'll never forgive them for killing Oliver to prop up unlikable, pointless characters.  And then to have his whole team be mildly sad about it.  I love Oliver.

 

 

I just wish the scene was longer because it made Felicity seem irrational (which she wasn't). One second she was happy he was back, the next she was angry. If they drew the scene out longer I'm sure it would've been better.

They do everything too quickly on this show.  They have mistaken fast-paced for massively rushed.

Edited February 5, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[icandigit]

 

They do everything too quickly on this show.  They have mistaken fast-paced for massively rushed.

I think the plot and character stuff from the first ep of the season (except flashbacks) should have been spread out through 1/4 to 1/2 of the season. Establishing Laurel and Oliver  you catch em I cook em would have helped the whole insta canary thing a little. Working with the team in a lawyer capacity would have made it easier for me to stomach her with team arrow later.  Taking time to establish Roy and team arrow as a well oiled machine would have been fun.  Keeping Sara around a little longer and doing more bonding with her sister. And showing a little more of what she was doing in Starling before killing  would have helped. Even having her teach Laurel advanced self defense training because of all the kidnappings. So when Sara dies maybe you could care about Laurel picking up the mantle.

 

And though boring, even Ray's take over of Queen Consolidated would have lasted longer than one day. Oddly, bringing Ray in via Felicity so soon really came off forced. He needed to stand more on his own, like the Brother Blood character and then put him with Felicity if necessary.

[calliope1975]

I think the plot and character stuff from the first ep of the season (except flashbacks) should have been spread out through 1/4 to 1/2 of the season. 

 

I agree. Imagine 5 or 6 episodes of TA (including ADA Laurel) running like a well oiled machine while dealing with the Villain of the Week. We see the Olicity flirty flirt and maybe a date or two. Ray arrives in Ep 1 but the takeover doesn't go through for a few episodes. Then, bam, everything goes to hell. Thea comes back on her own, but Malcolm's hanging out in the shadows. I don't know how to work out all the details at the moment, but I could figure it out with a bit of time. I wish the writers would just slow down.

 

I still wouldn't kill Sara off, though. I don't know that I'll ever think that was anything but a colossal mistake. 

[icandigit]

 

I still wouldn't kill Sara off, though. I don't know that I'll ever think that was anything but a colossal mistake.

Well yeah. That will never make sense.

[Starfish35]

I am bitter because as of tonight, Oliver is working with the man who killed Sara, against the man trying to avenge her death.

Yes, I know that's an overly simplistic way of looking at it (the Thea issue). But still. I am so sick of this show treating Sara and her death like nothing but a convenient plot device.

[wonderwall]

I am bitter because as of tonight, Oliver is working with the man who killed Sara, against the man trying to avenge her death.

Yes, I know that's an overly simplistic way of looking at it (the Thea issue). But still. I am so sick of this show treating Sara and her death like nothing but a convenient plot device.

Kudos to Felicity for actually calling BS to this whole thing because him teaming up with Malcolm is disrespectful to Thea and Sara. That's one of the very few things I liked about this episode. 

[Starfish35]

I just. I can't.

Malcolm. Killed. Sara. He drugged and brainwashed his own daughter into murdering a friend, in order to get himself off the hook for the cold-blooded murder of 503 people, and the attempted murder of hundreds, maybe thousands more.

I don't think there's anything that could redeem him for that, as far as I'm concerned. And I can't believe they are having people who've been hurt by him take his side. Roy lost several friends in The Undertaking. Laurel doesn't know about Sara yet, but she does know about Tommy. (And I have to believe that if she did know about Sara, her reaction would rival Felicity's - I have to feel a little sorry for her in that, and I don't normally feel sorry for Laurel Lance.).

Edited February 5, 2015 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

LAUREL WANTED TO KILL MALCOLM AND DIDN'T EVEN CARE IF HE KILLED SARA HOW COULD SHE BE OKAY WITH THIS?! IDK man... Shoddy writing. Which is basically what this whole season has been. 

[Danny Franks]

Why is Malcolm training Oliver going to help? Malcolm was scared shitless of Ra's in season 2, which suggests he has no chance of beating him anyway. One guy who can't beat someone training another guy who can't beat someone to... not beat someone.

 

Oh wait, I forgot, it's just for angst and plot extension, isn't it?

 

Also, did someone really say that Malcolm cares about the Glades? Are the writers pretending that the entirety of season 1 never happened, or something? There's bad writing, there's really shit writing, and then there's Arrow.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Danny Franks

[loki567]

If I remember correctly, didn't he want to level the entire fucking glades? Not make it better, just annihilate it completely?

[dtissagirl]

But dontcha know? When you kill all the poor people dead at the disenfranchised neighborhood, rich folks can gentrify it and make it pretty and better so no more rich people get killed on the streets. Malcolm'S logic is totally sound.

/sarcasm font

Also, I totally agree the pacing of this season is completely fucked. I watch a whole bunch of other shows that speed through plot, but none of them skip the important emotional beats like Arrow does. And it's really really hard to care for plot points when they don't stick the emotional landing.

Edited February 5, 2015 by dancingnancy

[looptab]

Agreed. It's like they don't even care that Sara is dead. WTF?

And also completely agree about the pacing, especially considering that the Sara's murder plot, that supposedly should have carried the first half of the season, was dealt with only in 3 episodes. They could have had the first 5 episodes be about Team Arrow adventures, and then Sara killed, if they really had to. But I guess in that case Laurel would have had just one month of training, instead of three. SMH

[Genki]

I'm still flip flopping about whether or not to watch today's episode or continue to just let the season build up. I think I might take the Olicity fight badly, because it is likely, given the EPs track record, that it only leads to more forced Raylicity, and Oliver pain. They couldn't even let him have 1 happy reunion scene before giving Oliver a new loss.

 

I think I see both Felicity and Oliver's sides and if I thought it would lead to some more intimacy/truths between Oliver and Felicity this current fight would rolled of my back, but last time they had an argument it lead to Ray propping, episode after episode of Ray propping (and Oliver SWM-ing) and no real deepening on-screen of their relationship. (I don't count the crossover because it seems that was an anomaly and mostly cute moments but no a deepening of their connection).

 

Things I was hoping to see was off-screen and so much that I did seeing was disappointing or frustrating. I've liked Oliver's journey because SA captures him so well. I've missed bit of Felicity's because she has been used by the writer's agenda. I fear that the EPs are doubling down on this again least until 3.18. I hate feeling like I need to "get through episodes" to enjoy this show again. 

 

The season has been so pointless because the thing that drove the storyline does not make sense. If Malcolm wanted to piss of Ra's why did it have to be Sara he had killed? They could have done the same without killing Sara, even if he gets away form Ra's does Malcolm think Nyssa will forgive? I know she was hunting him but he was in Corte Maltese, so how close was she really? They had to make a specific trip to Starling to do it or were they there for reasons which Thea had to be drugged for??? I'm sure Ra's would be pissed regardless of who in the LOA Malcolm killed. I can buy hypnotising, drugging and making Thea a murderer more easily than there was legitimate story reason to kill Sara. Sara isn't even that high on my character ranking and this plot choice still rankles. 

 

And I'm noticing the editing this season has been inconsistent, spending ages on certain elements, while rushing moment which would give meaning and weight to character development. 

 

Oliver is weary and so am I.

[Morrigan2575]

If I remember correctly, didn't he want to level the entire fucking glades? Not make it better, just annihilate it completely?

IIRC the plan was to abandon and devalue the Glades, which is why Robert closed the factory and other businesses closed up shop as well.  Then Malcolm was going to level the Glades with his earthquake machine, afterwards the Undertaking was supposed to swoop in and buy up all the real estate and force the poor/criminal elements out of the Glades (the ones that didn't die) and rebuild the Glades under Malcolm's control.

[tv echo]

So not only was Sara killed and dumped on a dumpster, but now her one-time lover and her sister don't even care about avenging her murder (or getting 'justice' for her) any more.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Sara.