Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Genki]

Thanks for clearing that up, quarks!

 

I have no idea where to put this, but I'm bitter that the EPs give out BAD SPOILERS, so: weren't we supposed to find out who the new Mayor of Starling City was in 305? Did I miss it, or was it cut? And if they cut it, I'm wondering why share that tidbit as a spoiler in the first place, if it was not important enough to keep.

 

 

Maybe that was a Ray scene, he was saying something about how difficulties of city rebranding blah, blah.

 

What I'm bitter about is that, the way the EPs planned out the season.

It would not have been so hard to show more the flirty-flirty on camera. Get to the first date (maybe no break up but plant the seed in Oliver's head that he needs to focus on mission) around episode 7. Have 

Oliver leave for for presumed LOA reasons, essentially abandoning Felicity, and triggering her abandonment issues.

. Personally I haven't seen Oliver dangling enough "maybes" for Felicity to be moving on or rebounding. 

 

In the meantime still have Felicity go to QC,  work on stuff for Ray and slowly build a friendship base. Make him less creepy 

Don't give him a Salmon ladder!

Oliver can loose the bid to have QC in episode 1, don't have Oliver loose everything that makes him Oliver in the first 5 mins of the season let him slowly loose everything bit by bit).

 

E1 - QC

E2 - Sara's murder and to a lesser degree, Felicity as she goes to work for Ray

E3 - Win back Thea but still secret & lies

E5 - Have some bittersweet moment where Donna plants a little bit of Oliver/Papa Smoak parallel (mission first something like that) in Felicity's head

E7 - 1st date Cupid. If she has been stalking them all summer would tie in better with the "I was distracted mission first" but grow seed planted in E1

E8 - Flash cross-over, Olicity distance/doubt start to grow

maybe a bit about Oliver and the kid and choosing not to be in his life

E9 - Psudo-Break-up, Can't be Arrow & Oliver Queen, 

Leave for the LOA

 

When Oliver Arrow gets back have "break-up" scene after reunion. By this stage hopefully who killed Sara is resolved and other less desirable storylines move to the background so Olicity angst is off-set by have 3B main story about characters that are more enjoyable and have Oliver start fighting to be Oliver Queen.

 

I think if we had more Team Arrow and Olicity flirt date build-up in 3A it would off-set the other less desirable storyline(s) and I think could build excitement towards 3B.

Right now I'm hating 3A and dreading 3B.

[MostlyC]

So I'm unpinning the Warning Re: Laurel Bashing Language to Unacceptable Levels Post, because you've been so great and respectful.  

It will, however, show up ASAP the second people forget the rule- just because it's not pinned doesn't mean we're not watching.

 

The post, in case anyone has forgotten:

 

The repeated bashing of Laurel the character and Katie Cassidy the actress has crossed the line in many threads, including this one. We are not going to go back and delete or move anything, but going forward, let's keep this in mind; you don't have to like Laurel or Katie Cassidy, just as other posters are not required to hate either of them. Continued and/or repeated posts saying the same thing over and over again will be deleted. Also, just because you think it, does not mean it needs to be put on the internet; think before you post. There are people who are not comfortable with reading in here because of the vitriol against the character and actress, and frankly, that includes the mods. The tone of a number of the Laurel-hating posts leaves much to be desired, so reel it in please. Going forward, we will be watching and posts may be deleted or edited.  Thank you for your consideration.

 

[chaos is welcome]

I am bitter because every single thing coming out right now about S3 after the break doesn't make me want to tune in. I am bitter because I trust the writers so little at this point, I am not even watching tonight, because it's the only way I truly know how to hurt them. I

[Nagevs]

I’m bitter because I continued to trust the showrunners and believed the show’s promotion after the season two finale, when all my instincts told me to just quit the show.

 

They are not deviating from their plans, just using stealth, they don’t care about making a good tv show, just recreating what happens in the comics.

I’ll never invest my time and energy in anything MG/AK write and produce again.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm actually quite bitter that in many cases, the EPs seem to know what the problems are, they just don't actually understand them.

 

I'm fairly certain that they know how popular Original Team Arrow trio is.  They had that line last season "It started with the three of us.  It's time we got back to that."  Well, instead of "getting back to that," we've added Roy and Laurel into the mix.  I'm fine with Roy, he doesn't bother me much and I don't care if he's hanging around.  Not so fine with Laurel (actually that's a huge understatement).  It's like they know that there are people who don't want her as part of Team Arrow ("I'm not part of your team and I don't work for you"), but they started the season with Laurel calling The Arrow her business partner ("you catch them, I cook them") and she's been hanging around the Arrow lair for half of the episodes this season (episodes 2, 4, and 6).  Really, if you aren't part of the team, why are you hanging out with the team???

 

They also understand that people have issues with Laurel.  But in their minds, the issues stem from the fact that Laurel didn't know the identity of The Arrow and she wasn't in fishnets yet.  So, we have Slade tell her who the Arrow is and to get her in on the action, we insert her into the Arrow Cave, which is exactly what people who love Original Team Arrow trio don't want.  As far as the fishnets go, we have the EPs telling us that you can't just put on a jacket and go out and fight crime, or you'll get yourself killed.   

But then Laurel is going to put on her BC costume and go out to fight crime. So is she going to get herself killed or what?

 

Olicity is popular, but again there is a misunderstanding about what actually makes this couple interesting.  We're going to fix this relationship with some on again/off again crap.  No, no, no.  This is not what people want.  At all.

 

The flashbacks are pretty polarizing, I think.  I encounter a lot of comments where people mention that the flashbacks are one of their least favorite parts of the show.  So now we're going to have

multiple episodes where Oliver is present only in flashbacks. And we're adding flashbacks of people like Nyssa, Sara, and Ray? WTH?

 

 

At this point, I don't believe anything that comes from the mouths of the EPs or actors, and I don't think I will ever trust any of them ever again  :(

Edited November 19, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[chaos is welcome]

Let's not forget my fav quote (I have no link) of season 2...regarding Team Arrow....people will come, people will go, but the original team will remain intact.

Really?

Fuck you, writers. I am so bitter, I can't believe I wasted an entire year of my life in love with this show. It was literally around this time last year that I marathoned s1 and caught up on S2. What a waste.

And I am bitter that my bitterness is extending to flash. I have had no desire to watch it since the pics from last week came out. Bc it feel like it's just a matter of time till they f that up too.

[Shanna]

I am bitter that this Cupid person is going to be on for two episode and she was introduced with the line "I'm Cupid stupid". And apparently AK created her?

This probably means no team arrow time. The spoilers are pointing towards the same thing.

And for gods sake can we have someone who isn't a damn archer? (Besides laurel)

[chaos is welcome]

I am bitter that this Cupid person is going to be on for two episode and she was introduced with the line "I'm Cupid stupid". And apparently AK created her?

This probably means no team arrow time. The spoilers are pointing towards the same thing.

And for gods sake can we have someone who isn't a damn archer? (Besides laurel)

But everyone has to be an archer so they can be a "suspect" for Sara's awesome murder mystery. Insert dramatic eyeroll.

My life is too short to waste my wed. On this show.

[Shanna]

I'm seriously thinking I might watch Buffy reruns tonight instead.

[tv echo]

I have no idea where to put this, but I'm bitter that the EPs give out BAD SPOILERS, so: weren't we supposed to find out who the new Mayor of Starling City was in 305? Did I miss it, or was it cut? And if they cut it, I'm wondering why share that tidbit as a spoiler in the first place, if it was not important enough to keep.

The new Mayor of Starling City is probably off somewhere with the new DA (also unidentified), who abandoned the city to the tender mercies of Acting DA Laurel Lance, who's been with the DA's Office for only a year.

 

In fact, I hope the new DA is a woman named Rachel Dawes and that she fires Laurel for incompetence, ethics violations, and identity theft.

Edited November 19, 2014 by tv echo

[writersblock51]

I'm bitter that the same writers who wrote Felicity so OOC in "Time of Death" are the ones who are writing the Ray/Felicity story tonight. 

 

I would love to know why both of these writers, females, by the way, write Felicity the way they do.  It's insulting.

[wonderwall]

I'm bitter that the same writers who wrote Felicity so OOC in "Time of Death" are the ones who are writing the Ray/Felicity story tonight. 

 

I would love to know why both of these writers, females, by the way, write Felicity the way they do.  It's insulting.

You know, I sometimes rant about how the show should have more female writers... I need to amend my statement. The show should have more competent female writers who understand the characters they're writing. It's incredible how the male writers understand Felicity more than the female writers...  

[Danny Franks]

I'm seriously thinking I might watch Buffy reruns tonight instead.

 

Don't watch season 7, because if you do you'll realise that Oliver's current outlook on his personal life amounts to, "I'm cookie dough". 

[wonderwall]

Lmao I SOOOO can't wait to watch the Arrow Aftershow tonight especially after that tweet by John Campea

[Shanna]

Don't watch season 7, because if you do you'll realise that Oliver's current outlook on his personal life amounts to, "I'm cookie dough".

Lol! Not a problem!

I actually don't have a huge priblem with Oliver lately. My issues are with the show itself.

[thuganomics85]

Apologizes for being random, but I've been Netflixing the Justice League cartoon series these past few days, and I now really wish this show went with the older Amanda Waller, as oppose to this sexy Amanda Waller (which, I've heard is based off the New 52 version.) Even in cartoon form, she has way more of a presence and bite to her, then this one.  I'm just now picturing all of her scenes if they were done by CCH Pounder instead, and I how better they would have been.  Waller would be commanding and ARGUS would probably come off like a force to be reckon with.  Instead, I feel like ARGUS is just a run-of-the-mill shady organization; only interesting whenever Diggle or Deadshot is involved; and Waller only interests me in waiting for them to find a way to get her and Slade together, so we can get a Spartacus reunion between Crixus/Naevia.

 

Speaking of that show, of course, that version of the Black Canary is already way more awesome in only three episodes then Laurel will ever be.  It helps that they make her fun and being a pain in the ass to everyone.  Plus, Morena Baccarin's voice alone is way better then Katie Cassidy on her best day lately.

[writersblock51]

I haven't seen the Justice League show so I don't know how the Waller there compares other than by what others have said.

 

All I know is that I think the show could have benefited from the "Even Batman is scared of her" Waller instead of the one we've got.  But it's the CW and it's love of Spartacus actors is boundless.

[Morrigan2575]

Don't watch season 7, because if you do you'll realise that Oliver's current outlook on his personal life amounts to, "I'm cookie dough"

oh man I forgot how dumb that cookie dough analogy was. ..lol

[Betweenthisandthat]

I watched this show over the summer and was shocked by its twists and turns and compelled by the characters onscreen.  I rooted for Oliver and found his island story fascinating.  I loved Oliver and Thea and found Moira to be such an important part of the show.  I loved Laurel and her quest to defend those who couldn't protect themselves, and Tommy was the best.  Tommy and Oliver and Diggle and Oliver.  Those friendships were so rich and wonderful.  Diggle had his own quest and storyline about his brother and Carla.  I even love him with Layla now.  Felicity was fresh and smart and added a comedy and lightness that balanced the show, and I appreciated that she could find Oliver sexually attractive.   Few women are allowed to gaze at men like they gaze at women on TV. Team Arrow were thick as thieves.  The Queen family had such rich history.  Oliver was a callous fuck up who was trying to be better when he came home and didn't know how.   I felt for that guy so much. There was so much I enjoyed about the show.

 

I don't know exactly what this show is doing now.  Maybe the weakness of the show was present in season 2, which I watched and liked parts of but certainly didn't enjoy as much as season 1.  I miss Moira terribly. I thought killing off Sara was the biggest mistake this show made because LORD KNOWS I wanted to see Sara and Laurel kick ass together.  But killing off Moira might have been the worst decision Arrow has made.  There is no other character that I miss as much as Moira because without her this show feels like it has no core.  Where the fuck is Walter???????

 

I'm also not a fan of Olicity as storyline at the moment.  It's doing all of the things I feared it would.  It is possible for this show to have these two be interesting to watch in a romantic way.  I was never really a shipper, but I was coming to it with an open mind, and yet they've pulled out so many cliches for these two.  I'm shocked by how cliched this relationship is.  I'm bored by it.  Can it go away or something? Can Felicity and Oliver not have this bullshit tension, sad ass crap between them so they can either be a couple or be partners in crime?  I've seen will they/won't they pairings before, but this one is not giving me anything to work with at the moment.  

 

Arrow has lost something and I don't know how it can get it back to be honest. Maybe the second half of the season will be a pleasant surprise and prove me wrong.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Betweenthisandthat

[wonderwall]

What I hate about this season is that I feel like I was offered a 5 course meal at a michelin starred restaurant but instead was taken to a taco bell drive thru. 

 

This season is just not cutting it for me. There are no emotional stakes, there is no mystery, the characters are out of character, the weakest links of the show are being put front and center, the characterizations feel contrived, the writers are writing for the plot instead of the characters, there is no excitement in every episode as in there's no sense of urgency, the original team is missing most of the time which is like ordering steak but only getting a side of salad...

 

It's just not good for me. And I hate that this is happening to the only show I've been passionate about in over 10 years. 

[Luckylyn]

I mean no disrespect to Felicity's character but I am a little annoyed how her storyline this season seems to be as Ray Palmer's/Oliver's love interest. 

I am really upset at how isolated Felicity has become from the family aspect of Team Arrow.  It's like the writers decided she should only have love interests and no friends.  She should be part of family dinners with Diggle, Lyla, and Sara.  It's like Oliver got custody of Diggle when he ended things with Felicity, and it pisses me off.   Felicity didn't have many friends to begin with, and they have taken Diggle out of her orbit.  I may ship Olicity, but I am just as invested in platonic relationships and don't want Felicity to just be in the love interest zone with no friends to ever interact with.  I'm going to need some scenes that are about Diggle/Felicity and the wonderful friendship we saw develop in previous seasons.

[Danny Franks]

I am really upset at how isolated Felicity has become from the family aspect of Team Arrow.  It's like the writers decided she should only have love interests and no friends.  She should be part of family dinners with Diggle, Lyla, and Sara.  It's like Oliver got custody of Diggle when he ended things with Felicity, and it pisses me off.   Felicity didn't have many friends to begin with, and they have taken Diggle out of her orbit.  I may ship Olicity, but I am just as invested in platonic relationships and don't want Felicity to just be in the love interest zone with no friends to ever interact with.  I'm going to need some scenes that are about Diggle/Felicity and the wonderful friendship we saw develop in previous seasons.

 

This is perhaps one of the reasons why her sudden attraction to Ray has confused so many people. Felicity has no one to talk to except Oliver and Diggle, and obviously she won't be talking to either of them about her love life. She's been given no friends to verbalise her inner thoughts with, she's been given no scenes where she's just chilling with pals, having a laugh. So is it any surprise that the goings on in her mind come out of left field? The writers probably just figure that the audience will fill in all the gaps, so they don't have to bother.

 

That's probably why people liked her so much when she was on The Flash. Suddenly, she had several people to talk to, who she didn't have to hide things from (other than the Arrow's identity, of course). Even if she wasn't sitting down and talking to Caitlin or Iris about random stuff, she at least had a different vibe to play off. Something that... I don't know... a certain woman who shouldn't have been stupidly killed in the Arrow season opener could have offered.

[chaos is welcome]

Since you brought it up, I am endlessly bitter that we never got more smoaking canary scenes. And even more bitter that they have NO INTEREST in buildiNg a friendship between laurel and felicity. Bc I am pretty sure laurel sees felicity as the help....sigh.

[Danny Franks]

Since you brought it up, I am endlessly bitter that we never got more smoaking canary scenes. And even more bitter that they have NO INTEREST in buildiNg a friendship between laurel and felicity. Bc I am pretty sure laurel sees felicity as the help....sigh.

 

Or Thea and Felicity. Or Lyla and Felicity. Or a fucking random bit part who gets three lines every five episodes, as Felicity's friend at work or from college. Nope. Her life is nothing but Arrow Cave and QC, Oliver and 50 Shades. As if the love triangle wasn't signposted enough.

[apinknightmare]

Or Thea and Felicity. Or Lyla and Felicity. Or a fucking random bit part who gets three lines every five episodes, as Felicity's friend at work or from college. Nope. Her life is nothing but Arrow Cave and QC, Oliver and 50 Shades. As if the love triangle wasn't signposted enough.

 

None of them have friends outside of each other that we see on the show though. Oliver's life is the foundry. Diggle's life is Lyla and the foundry, and the only reason we have Lyla now is because she's connected to ARGUS. Roy has the foundry. At one point Roy had Sin, but everyone's forgotten she exists. Laurel has Quentin and now Ted, because we need Ted for training purposes - they got rid of her other friend when she stopped being useful to the plot. We don't get to see any parts of anyone's personal life if it doesn't connect to the larger narrative - it's not a Felicity specific problem.

[Danny Franks]

None of them have friends outside of each other that we see on the show though. Oliver's life is the foundry. Diggle's life is Lyla and the foundry, and the only reason we have Lyla now is because she's connected to ARGUS. Roy has the foundry. At one point Roy had Sin, but everyone's forgotten she exists. Laurel has Quentin and now Ted, because we need Ted for training purposes - they got rid of her other friend when she stopped being useful to the plot. We don't get to see any parts of anyone's personal life if it doesn't connect to the larger narrative - it's not a Felicity specific problem.

 

Oliver has had Tommy, Thea, Moira, Diggle and even Laurel and Sara, who he could talk to outside the confines of being either the Arrow or QC boss. In the first two seasons, he had scenes where he could chat to those people and shine light on his inner workings. If the show has forgotten that in the third season (well, for those still alive, anyway), then that's a sad state of affairs.

 

The other characters don't really count, in my view, because none of them are being positioned as the female lead (again, if that's actually what's happening with Felicity, and it isn't a bait and switch). They're supporting characters who do what they need to do in any given episode, but the show is never going to be about them. Having said that, I don't disagree that they should all be given more time (except Laurel) to develop as rounded characters. But you can't have your female lead, and one half of the couple you want to push, be unknowable outside the narrow confines of COTW stories. It's just not going to work. Yes, you can give fans lots of information on her character through the way she deals with events, but if the viewers don't get to see her sitting around and watching TV or chatting to people, as they have seen Oliver do, then she is always going to be too mysterious for sudden direction shifts to make sense.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Danny Franks

[apinknightmare]

I see what you're saying regarding Oliver, but it makes sense that he would have all of those outlets available to him, because he's the main character and everyone on the show is in his orbit, and the show is about him and his personal relationships and becoming a better man. We needed to see all of those sides of him to accept him as a hero, because when he came back from the island he was running around killing people and he needed those connections to humanize him.

 

I think Diggle is meant to be Felicity's emotional sounding board, just like he's Oliver's. She's never had difficulty expressing herself to him before, so if we were meant to know what she was thinking or how she felt about anything that's going on now, she would've told him. Would I like to see Felicity have a life outside of work and Arrow time? Definitely. I'd love to get to see her sitting around chatting with friends, but I know I'm never going to get it. It's unfortunate, but I do understand it.

[chaos is welcome]

And full circle on the lack of dig/ felicity this season. Not counting the whole "you have Oliver all tied up in knots," because zomg, I can't even.

[statsgirl]

This is perhaps one of the reasons why her sudden attraction to Ray has confused so many people. Felicity has no one to talk to except Oliver and Diggle, and obviously she won't be talking to either of them about her love life. She's been given no friends to verbalise her inner thoughts with, she's been given no scenes where she's just chilling with pals, having a laugh. So is it any surprise that the goings on in her mind come out of left field? The writers probably just figure that the audience will fill in all the gaps, so they don't have to bother.

This is what has really makes me bitter about the Cupid episode, that Felicity is separated from her friends in the lair and befuddled by Ray.  And really, she's done nothing wrong.  Oliver was the one to decide they can't be together so she tried to move on with her life.  But she's being shut out of the friend moments with Diggle and Roy because horrors, she went on to get a job that doesn't depend on a Queen.  And while Ray seems good on the surface, he's playing mind games with her and she can't trust his gifts or his attention.

 

I was really looking forward to the cross-overs episodes but now I'm dreading them because of the discord between Oliver and Felicity.  So bitter.

 

Oliver is the one who is emotionally stunted but Felicity is paying the greatest price because he still has Diggle and Roy.

I am really upset at how isolated Felicity has become from the family aspect of Team Arrow.  It's like the writers decided she should only have love interests and no friends.  She should be part of family dinners with Diggle, Lyla, and Sara.  It's like Oliver got custody of Diggle when he ended things with Felicity, and it pisses me off.   Felicity didn't have many friends to begin with, and they have taken Diggle out of her orbit.  I may ship Olicity, but I am just as invested in platonic relationships and don't want Felicity to just be in the love interest zone with no friends to ever interact with.  I'm going to need some scenes that are about Diggle/Felicity and the wonderful friendship we saw develop in previous seasons.

I also  hated that Diggle was only concerned with how Oliver was doing. Not a word about how Felicity felt, or how she was doing in her job. The poor woman rushes between Palmer and the lair and not one of her supposed friends seems to give a damn about her.

 

Guggenheim, with his stupid star-crossed angst, has succeeded in making me dislike Diggle, as well as Oliver and think less of Felicity. Well done, sir.

Edited November 20, 2014 by statsgirl

[Password]

I agree with you that Dig really should've been looking out for her good as well as Oliver's because he's a good friend. But it's somewhat unfair to say she's isolated from Roy and Diggle whom nowadays she only sees in the foundry because she works. And as you said she's super busy, she's getting on with her life as a normal person would, but Roy and Diggle are very much about the mission. They're very Verdant centred and seeing as Oliver is too, I get that they'd see him more.

Now if you mean them making an effort to see what she's up to, then yes, by all means they are Oliver centred. Diggle actually seemed out of place at Palmer Tech (BTW) so that was an interesting melding of worlds so to speak. Which is ironic because last year this time they were all at QC every day. But anyway, Felicity's journey this year should be interesting.

[calliope1975]

I think this is why we got such insight into Felicity when she was on The Flash. She had Cisco, Caitlin, Barry, and even Iris to talk to and interact with. It gave her an outlet and we got to get in her head. It's just sad that that had to happen on a completely different show.

[Password]

It needs to happen on this show sooner rather than later otherwise I'm very lost concerning Felicity's cavalier behaviour with Ray.

[patchwork]

Part of the reason I'm eager for Thea to find out everything is that it opens up the possibility of a Felicity/Thea friendship and would give both women a sounding board for the stuff they're going through. Right now they don't have a relationship, I can't even remember if they've ever interacted, but for the future it's a blank slate the writers could make into whatever they want. 

[wonderwall]

I miss moments like this:

 

 

And it makes me bitter that we haven't been getting any quality team arrow moments. Their interactions are fun and it just makes the show so much better. Shame on the Arrow crew for not giving us more of this brilliance. 

[apinknightmare]

And it makes me bitter that we haven't been getting any quality team arrow moments. Their interactions are fun and it just makes the show so much better. Shame on the Arrow crew for not giving us more of this brilliance. 

 

I'm really hoping that instead of the mid-season crapfest we got last year, the crapfest is at the beginning and we'll be firing on all cylinders and getting back to some kind of normalcy soon. I HOPE.

[wonderwall]

I'm really hoping that instead of the mid-season crapfest we got last year, the crapfest is at the beginning and we'll be firing on all cylinders and getting back to some kind of normalcy soon. I HOPE.

I hope the crapfest will end after episode 12. *FINGERS CROSSED*. Because I just know an episode without Oliver is an episode I will not like whatsoever. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm bitter about the fact that I read all of these wonderful analyses about the show, and whether I agree with them or not, I know that much time and effort has been dedicated to these thoughts.  Too much effort.  In fact, most definitely more effort than the writers have invested.  These writers don't seem to want to tell stories, they just writer filler to get us from Plot Point A to Plot Point B.  They fight the natural progression of the story every step of the way.  Convoluted indeed.

[chaos is welcome]

Yeah, it's ridiculous that fan fiction and theories are better than what they actually show onscreen. There's little excitement or hope for me anymore, and it makes me exceedingly bitter bc I have invested too much time and energy into this show.

Edited November 21, 2014 by chaos is welcome

[Danny Franks]

I'm bitter about the fact that I read all of these wonderful analyses about the show, and whether I agree with them or not, I know that much time and effort has been dedicated to these thoughts.  Too much effort.  In fact, most definitely more effort than the writers have invested.  These writers don't seem to want to tell stories, they just writer filler to get us from Plot Point A to Plot Point B.  They fight the natural progression of the story every step of the way.  Convoluted indeed.

 

This is why so many shows run out of steam, lose viewers and die. Because the writers spend so much of their creative energies coming up with ways to circumvent what the natural progression of a story would bring. If they spend all their time coming up with increasingly convoluted storylines, and twisting the characters out of shape to fit their storylines, then it's natural that their creative well will start to run dry.

 

It's also why I think so many shows lose viewers after a big 'ship gets together. I don't think the audience loses interest because the tension is gone, because the chase has ended, at least not for a lot of them. I think it's because the writers have tried every trick they know (often more than once) and told every story they can think to tell, before they succumb to the inevitable and stick the characters together. By the time it happens, the show is ploughing a shallow furrow, and there's just not much left to keep people hooked. I predict the same thing will happen with Arrow.

 

Hell, they've already killed Sara and brainwashed Thea and introduced the biggest villain they can introduce, and it's all at least partly because they want to put off Oliver/Felicity for as long as they can.

[Password]

Yeah not going to lie the light and honest relationship Felicity and Oliver had is taking a massive hit right now. I think if the writers intend for this season to be their "island" then fine. But if they keep coming up with stalling tactics their relationship will be exactly what I dislike in other TV relationships.

Also, building a relationship on will-they-wont-they instead of a solid foundation of friendship, honesty and love is what sinks most TV relationships for me. If the excitement is in getting there, and not remaining there, it falls apart.

[Pyramid]

That's the problem, this relationship was never built on "will they/won't they", it was always going to be "of course they will". It grew naturally out of their great chemistry, seemingly behind the writers back. As soon as they noticed what was going on, they got their paws on it, and now we have this shitfest.

[apinknightmare]

That's the problem, this relationship was never built on "will they/won't they", it was always going to be "of course they will". It grew naturally out of their great chemistry, seemingly behind the writers back. As soon as they noticed what was going on, they got their paws on it, and now we have this shitfest.

 

I'm probably in the minority, but I actually don't think it's a shitfest (yet). Because I still don't think there's a will they/won't they thing going on - there's no doubt in my mind that they will. I don't even think the show is trying to cast any doubt on that. Oliver's always taken Felicity for granted, and he's not ready for the long-term kind of thing that would do justice to their relationship. He really doesn't have any fight in him for himself and his happiness, and he's got to learn to stop being an observer in his own life. Felicity hit the nail on the head when she told him that he can't just accept things, but he still hasn't gotten to the point where he fights. When he sees something slipping away, he's got to learn to fight for it, to want it badly enough to not let it fall through his fingers, and for once I'm just glad that this isn't a life-or-death situation for him.

 

I expected Oliver to see Ray and Felicity kiss, but it actually gives me hope that he didn't make himself known and there wasn't any drama over it. He went back to the foundry, had his moment of anger at himself, and then did something constructive. Maybe it's because my expectations are just so low, but it was progression, not regression, and I'm okay with that.

 

The best thing to do IMO is to ignore the way EPs talk about this relationship, because they just use traditional buzzwords and most of it doesn't translate on screen. I have seen the slow burn, but despite the ups and downs of this season I haven't really seen any one step forward, two steps back stuff. So far every "setback" has led to growth of some sort, and that's all I expect from this show.

[blixie]

 

I expected Oliver to see Ray and Felicity kiss, but it actually gives me hope that he didn't make himself known and there wasn't any drama over it.

 

I'm still really failing to see HOW it's a hopeful thing. I mean of course it's good he surrounded himself with Team Arrow family, instead of brooding in his heartbreak and anger, but the bottom line is he punked out AGAIN, failed to follow through, ran because things were complicated and hard *emotionally*. I'm just tired, so motheffing tired of it. It ain't THAT hard writers please stop acting like it is. I'm more mad at the writers than Oliver, because yes it's yet further confirmation they are delaying this not for organic reasons, but simply because all they care about are plot beats, not story and character beats, and therefore the characters will keep doing stupid shit, and remain apart until such time as they decide Olicity can be together. Bleh.

[Pyramid]

I'm probably in the minority, but I actually don't think it's a shitfest (yet). Because I still don't think there's a will they/won't they thing going on - there's no doubt in my mind that they will. I don't even think the show is trying to cast any doubt on that. Oliver's always taken Felicity for granted, and he's not ready for the long-term kind of thing that would do justice to their relationship. He really doesn't have any fight in him for himself and his happiness, and he's got to learn to stop being an observer in his own life. Felicity hit the nail on the head when she told him that he can't just accept things, but he still hasn't gotten to the point where he fights. When he sees something slipping away, he's got to learn to fight for it, to want it badly enough to not let it fall through his fingers, and for once I'm just glad that this isn't a life-or-death situation for him.

 

I expected Oliver to see Ray and Felicity kiss, but it actually gives me hope that he didn't make himself known and there wasn't any drama over it. He went back to the foundry, had his moment of anger at himself, and then did something constructive. Maybe it's because my expectations are just so low, but it was progression, not regression, and I'm okay with that.

 

The best thing to do IMO is to ignore the way EPs talk about this relationship, because they just use traditional buzzwords and most of it doesn't translate on screen. I have seen the slow burn, but despite the ups and downs of this season I haven't really seen any one step forward, two steps back stuff. So far every "setback" has led to growth of some sort, and that's all I expect from this show.

I was using "will they/won't they" as a catch-all term for show runners' pathological inability to let a friendship grow into a relationship in a mature and believable way. With Oliver and Felicity there was a perfect opportunity to let that happen (was going to say make that happen) but really let is the better word here. 

We all know the happy accident that the character of Felicity was and how she grew into the main love interest for Oliver completely organically. And now that they've got the Slade storyline out of the way it's like they've rubbed their hands and gone, "now to start writing this romance properly." And that's when it all went wrong. The believable way for O/F to get together was to continue on exactly as they had been, gone on the date and moved on to an actual drama free, mature relationship.

Arrow is, by it's nature, an over the top dramatic show, their relationship could've been the thing that grounded it, but nope it's tv romance 101, let's put roadblocks in their way.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Pyramid

[blixie]

 

 

The believable way for O/F to get together was to continue on exactly as they had been, gone on the date and moved on to an actual drama free, mature relationship.

Arrow is, by it's nature, an over the top dramatic show, there relationship could've been the thing that grounded it, but nope it's tv romance 101, let's put roadblocks in their way.

 

But that's just IT there were lots of *organic* "roadblocks", even ones that could have been  used in conjunction with Ray as a love interest, but instead they opted to go with the exact same line of bullshit Oliver has been telling himself since he landed in Starling City again for the sixth, seventh, eighth time. We are two years into the story, I felt that Oliver had moved past this, he knew it to be a lie, he knew it to be bullshit, he knew it was the reason he fails not the reason he succeeds as a hero. So yes, in The Calm first the writers FF and skip over the part where theyt show us how Oliver and Felicity are flirting and comfortable with one another, and we even have Oliver STILL claiming the ILY was to fake Slade out, then BOOM, they regress Oliver back 12 episodes and have him hit a pause button all while being as douchey as possibly to Felicity about *her* feelings.  "Don't. Ask. Me. To be a Mature Adult male!" "It was because of WORMS Roxanne, WORMS!"

 

I wanted, very badly wanted, Felicity to be the one to curb HIM, maybe even for HIS own good, both because she knows he just isn't ready for her or anyone else jelly, and because she flat out doesn't trust the SOB with her *heart*. I wanted them to consider the challenges of being a couple while they do the work they do (Oliver could be like I tried this with Sara and Huntress and it ended BAD!). So again lots of good reasons to dramatically delay, reasons I buy and that hadn't already been driven into the ground by a mack truck.

Edited November 21, 2014 by blixie

[Pyramid]

I think, that's where we differ. I'm just so jaded about "slow-burn". I just don't care about that. There's plenty of juice to be squeezed from being in a relationship. That's why I always liked Zoe and Wash, they were already there, but it wasn't like they ceased to be interesting just because they were.

As I said, there's plenty of drama to go round without having to have slow-burn relationship issues.

And on a completely unrelated, but still bitter note, I feel like I should just add, again, What THE FUCK were they thinking about with that fucking DJ? Was it a competition to see who could write the biggest dickhead? Just no.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Pyramid

[apinknightmare]

I wanted, very badly wanted, Felicity to be the one to curb HIM, maybe even for HIS own good, both because she knows he just isn't ready for her or anyone else jelly, and because she flat out doesn't trust the SOB with her *heart*. I wanted them to consider the challenges of being a couple while they do the work they do (Oliver could be like I tried this with Sara and Huntress and it ended BAD!). So again lots of good reasons to dramatically delay, reasons I buy and that hadn't already been driven into the ground by a mack truck.

 

Yeah, I agree with this. I think a normal, functional adult relationship wasn't possible yet, because Oliver still has too much work to do on himself. And there was already so much out there on the table that would've been legit reasons for them to not pursue it without *literally* blowing everything up. Traversing those waters would've been something *I* would've liked to seen (like Felicity pushing him away because she knew he wasn't ready, or any other host of non-dramatic reasons), but sadly TPTB aren't willing to try and work that kind of thing into this show. I've been trying to temper my expectations based on what kind of CW drama I know I'm in for; maybe that's why I'm not deflated about it. Yet.

[blixie]

 

I think, that's where we differ. I'm just so jaded about "slow-burn". I just don't care about that. There's plenty of juice to be squeezed from being in a relationship.

 

Oh no I'm over it too (my favorite FFS couples work on shows is News Radio Dave/Lisa), my time line would have been first third of the season apart, but slowly working through stuff, relationship resolved by finale of 3A, united and stable Olicity for the duration of 3B and maybe some cliff hanger separation at the end in the conflict with Ra's. Start 4A with the Lair full o hero's who are not Oliver. Which would also give Laurel the benefit of an entire fucking YEAR of training before I'm supposed to buy her in the field.

Edited November 21, 2014 by blixie

[Password]

Hmmm frankly him never mentioning that relationship with Sara is a blessing. I've decided it didn't actually happen because it didn't effect the storyline at all. Selective memory is the way for concerning season 2B. Oh and ToD also didn't happen.

I think I'm in the middle. I liked their relationship and how it was based on friendship and organic growth. And I hoped it would've proceeded as drama free as possible. However I absolutely don't think Oliver is or was ready for Felicity (or anyone) in The Calm. I was annoyed/panicked somewhat when I heard over the hiatus that they would date. Mostly because I wanted to see their progression but also because I didn't think Oliver is ready. If he can't learn to be lonely in a healthy way that doesn't include shutting down and pushing people away, his relationship would never work. As cliche as it is, he needs to find himself and know what he can offer before he can offer anything. Balance between his vigilante ego and Oliver Queen is really necessary because he needs to accept all facets of himself. You CAN do both things, you can have a life and children and a beautiful woman at your side. But you gotta learn how to do it by yourself first.

So whilst I hate that they went the good ol' I can't be me and the Arrow, I don't mind because right now he can't. Right now he's taking baby steps to bettering himself, to opening up. And Felicity is finding a life outside of the foundry after she realised how Oliver centred it was. With Ray...but eh eh eh I'm not here for a Ray Rant. I actually hope she gains a friend by the end of the season (but that might be asking too much because that person would fall in love with her. Hmph.) I have a lot of patience with Oliver, perhaps not concerning Felicity because how many times can you break someone's heart whilst holding on at the same time, but concerning his learning curve. I do have a cut off date though. This season, make it count writers otherwise The Calm was a massive bait and switch.

[Pyramid]

I was being ranty, on reflection O probably isn't ready, however I still stand by my wanting the relationship drama over as soon as possible. I like blixie's timeline.