Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[WindofChange]

1 hour ago, ChampagneSupernova said:

Because comics...

I could write an essay on how the comics harmed this show more than helped it 

I went ahead and created a brief outline of how I think the comics have harmed the show more than helped it (i'm bored):

Intro

 Point 1: Writers force characters into positions that aren't suited for the show in the way it was designed

        - Curtis

        - The insistence of having a BC

        - Thea becoming Speedy and how it made her "one of the many"

        - Introduction of newbies

        - Leads to lazy writing and characters being given their mantles instead of earning it

       
 Point 2: Writers force comic plot devices into the show where it doesn't belong

       - Metas (Eg. Canary Cry)

       - T-Spheres

       - Lazarus Pit (deus ex machina)/Multiple earths

 Point 3: Creates expectations from the audience that doesn't necessarily work on screen

       - GA/BC romance

       - Oliver becoming more like "Ollie"

       - Oliver having a son (Connor Hawke/William)

       - Action! Action! Action!

 

Counterpoint: Without the comics there wouldn't be a show

       - Valid point because a lot of the characters are from the comics

       - Some popular comic elements does have a way of exciting the audience (eg. Ra's, Deathstroke)

       - However, comic canon is mean to be a faint guideline not something that restricts creativity or forces the show into something it's not equipped to handle.

       - A lot more of the audience appreciates originality over the fulfillment of comic canon (if well done).

Conclusion

Edited October 16, 2017 by ChampagneSupernova

[bijoux]

I think they should have kept Curtis and backburned Mister Terrific, kept hinting to that at Curtis' possible fate, but then goiing naaah, psych. But maybe.

Thea becoming Speedy I don't mind that much because at least she had kinda, sorta something to do in season 4, but then they completely wasted that and Chekov's gun they cocked in 401, i.e. Thea being immune to DD and having some sort of power over him. Beyond the fact that it would have been very cool if Thea ended up being instrumental to taking him down, they had Constantine there to fix Sara after LP. Instead of giving Oliver the magic tattoo, they could have had him clocking on to Thea demonstrating some side effects. Furthermore, this would have played great into the season's message that Oliver was learning to let others make their own choices.

Season 4 was a while back, but I think this was before Willa's reduced screentime, so it could have been done.

So if there is something that I'm bitter about, it's that the show often fails to think outside the box.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Felicity and Dig are/have been both tasked with selling the newbies to the audience. Dig had Wild Dog last year before they passed him over to Lance, now he's got Dinah. And this set up is actually very similar to Felicity and Rory last year. Only Rory came off as supportive and thus endearing to the viewers who like Felicity (plus was being played by a better actor IMO), whereas Dinah is coming off as confrontational and flirty, and therefore annoying to Dig/Dyla fans. The bones are exactly the same though. Dig (Felicity) is struggling and hiding a secret from the team, which his oldest and closest friends don't see or approach because of STORY, but Dinah (Rory) catches the warning signs.

The difference is Rory was very charming and likeable and those scenes with Felicity barely amounted to much screentime at all. Dinah was literally all over this first episode, and not just with Diggle. She should have just had scenes with either Quentin or Diggle but not both. Both was overkill, IMO. That's where my issue lies. It just feels very forced.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Her scenes with Lance feel forced to me like her scenes with Dig. The difference is that PB doesn't respond to her weird vibe so they don't seem that inappropriate. I thought it was weird how out of the blue JH talked about a father/daughter type of relationship with Lance in an interview but I hoped it was her headcanon not what was going to happen on screen but I was wrong. They spent last year establishing a connection between Lance and WD so at this point those scenes would have made sense with him for example or they should have laid some groundwork last year instead of going from 0 to 100 just because they wanted to connect those two to BS and apparently when they think of a BC they think Lance's daughter,.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Her scenes with Lance feel forced to me like her scenes with Dig. The difference is that PB doesn't respond to her weird vibe so they don't seem that inappropriate. I thought it was weird how out of the blue JH talked about a father/daughter type of relationship with Lance in an interview but I hoped it was her headcanon not what was going to happen on screen but I was wrong. They spent last year establishing a connection between Lance and WD so at this point those scenes would have made sense with him for example or they should have laid some groundwork last year instead of going from 0 to 100 just because they wanted to connect those two to BS and apparently when they think of a BC they think Lance's daughter,.

Despite the weird vibe and chemistry between Diggle/Dinah, they did at least have some scenes together in s5 so it doesn't feel too forced. I do think, however, the scene with the gun could've been with someone else. Even Rene, considering he was the one who was hurt as a result. At least then we wouldn't have had that moment when I seriously thought they were going to kiss or we'd find out they'd been having some kind of affair. Haha.

But the Quentin/Dinah insta-bond came out of nowhere and was hastily backed up by a forced in flashback. IDK, I find the father/daughter thing they're going for kinda creepy seeing as she literally did replace his daughter as BC. It's weird. If anything I'd find it more natural for them to be kinda distant and slightly uncomfortable with each other for a while because "Hello, it is a bit strange how my name is Dinah just like your dead daughter and now I'm carrying her old mantle, right?" "Right." "Okay. Bye. See ya!"

[Primal Slayer]

For me, I just dont think they are that talented at merging the two worlds and finding a happy medium between comic book/adaption. They either go to far right or to far left and thus it is hard to make everyone happy instead of being able to bring them together. I am a big believer of if you do something good enough, majority won't mind the changes that you do like iZombie. But a lot of the characters that they choose to bring on the show have a baseline that made people fall in love with them, take that and build onto it. 

Not to mention that MG and co. are spreading themselves so thin that they clearly arent paying that much to attention to the show as the show needs and when the big 3 split (MG/GB/AK) it showed in Arrows quality for the most part. 

[kismet]

41 minutes ago, ChampagneSupernova said:

I went ahead and created a brief outline of how I think the comics have harmed the show more than helped it (i'm bored):

Intro

 Point 1: Writers force characters into positions that aren't suited for the show in the way it was designed

        - Curtis

        - The insistence of having a BC

        - Thea becoming Speedy and how it made her "one of the many"

        - Introduction of newbies

        - Leads to lazy writing and characters being given their mantles instead of earning it

       
 Point 2: Writers force comic plot devices into the show where it doesn't belong

       - Metas (Eg. Canary Cry)

       - T-Spheres

       - Lazarus Pit (deus ex machina)/Multiple earths

 Point 3: Creates expectations from the audience that doesn't necessarily work on screen

       - GA/BC romance

       - Oliver becoming more like "Ollie"

       - Oliver having a son (Connor Hawke/William)

       - Action! Action! Action!

 

Counterpoint: Without the comics there wouldn't be a show

       - Valid point because a lot of the characters are from the comics

       - Some popular comic elements does have a way of exciting the audience (eg. Ra's, Deathstroke)

       - However, comic canon is mean to be a faint guideline not something that restricts creativity or forces the show into something it's not equipped to handle.

       - A lot more of the audience appreciates originality over the fulfillment of comic canon (if well done).

Conclusion

I do wonder how the show would have been received without a comic background. S1 did not feel very comicy, and yet you could see the comic structure and foundation. My issue with comic canon has generally never been about comic canon. Most of it is pretty common stuff. It is about how TPTB use the comic canon. It just poorly utilized on the show. There is a lot to mine from comic canon that could and should work on the show. It requires proper casting and writing, but it's not impossible. It's just the writers fail to integrate it. I prefer originality, but I truly wonder if the writers have that ability to be original. I don't think comic canon restricts creativity, I just don't think TPTB know how to use it well. It does not seem that hard to integrate comic canon, the writers are just crappy at it.

[KirkB]

My issue in the beginning wasn't the fact they were mining comic canon. I expect that from a comic based show. What irked me was the fact that in the first season they seemed to mining more from Batman's stories than Green Arrow's.

Now though, they're falling into the same trap almost all comic shows seem to fall into. They want to have their cake and eat it too. Whenever they vary from the lore they get all prideful and insist they don't have to follow it, but at the same time they decide they MUST have a Black Canary on the show "because comics!" Smallville got around this was saying at the beginning they weren't following any particular canon and were doing their own thing.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, KirkB said:

My issue in the beginning wasn't the fact they were mining comic canon. I expect that from a comic based show. What irked me was the fact that in the first season they seemed to mining more from Batman's stories than Green Arrow's.

Now though, they're falling into the same trap almost all comic shows seem to fall into. They want to have their cake and eat it too. Whenever they vary from the lore they get all prideful and insist they don't have to follow it, but at the same time they decide they MUST have a Black Canary on the show "because comics!" Smallville got around this was saying at the beginning they weren't following any particular canon and were doing their own thing.

SO MUCH THIS! Especially the first bolded part! As for Smallville, yeah, the potential was there for them to do their own thing, then suddenly, when the original creators left, sudden lightswitch and "because COMICS!" Nonsense. 

[Primal Slayer]

For the most part Smallville did a good job of combining the two worlds but it was slightly easier for them since Clark was a teenager and they were telling the early years before the cape. Not to mention the changes they made (lex/clark) being childhood friends were good and executed way better than Oliver/Laurel being childhood friends. 

But Smallvilles refusal to go beyond their original mission statement also hindered them in the long run. They planned 5 seasons but got 10 and were still refusing to push Clark into being Superman so Arrow definitely beat them there. 10 seasons of Oliver being The Hood before transitioning into GA? that would've been horrible.

Arrow tried to get everyone they could so early on though. Bringing in DLL would've been better if they waited until like s3/4 OR at least not doing what they did by handicapping her.

[tv echo]

I hate that Arrow has moved away from the core OTA team. I don't mind adding supporting members to that team, but the show really is trying to make Curtis, Dinah and Wild Dog equal team members and cast members. Other shows have successfully lasted for 10 or more seasons with the same core cast. But the Arrow EPs seem to have difficulty coming up with stories that don't involve adding more DC characters and adapting their comics back stories.

I wish that the show would remember what Geoff Johns said in a May 8, 2013 Collider article:

Quote

[Collider:] I did want to talk a little bit about the first [season] of Arrow.  I have not seen the finale yet, but I’m going to give you props. It’s been a really good first season.  What’s been your take on the show, and the fact that it’s done really well in the ratings for the CW?

JOHNS: I’m really happy with the success of Arrow and the team [Greg] Berlanti and [Andrew] Kreisberg and [Marc] Guggenheim really put together this great show.  You can see with this season, I thought the season started strong, but it got stronger.  I thought the show really found it’s place, and the cast found its place.  One of my favorite episodes is, I don’t think it’s aired yet, but there’s this big sequence with Oliver Queen and Felicity Smoak and Diggle, when I saw those characters in that episode, I thought I could see this show going forever.  What the success of the show has done is that it’s helped open up doors for DC and television in a very good way, and for the CW in a very good way.

Now I don't know if Johns still feels that way, but he did at that time recognize the importance of OTA.

However, the Arrow EPs now appear to be making OTA a thing of the past. I realize that shows have to evolve and change. But why couldn't Arrow have evolved and changed but still kept OTA at its core?

Edited October 22, 2017 by tv echo

[way2interested]

Technically OTA are still at the core. Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity (heck, even Olicity as a collective) are the only characters at this point who have plots (and Lance I guess, but we're going to avoid that story for now). Rene, Curtis, and Dinah are only support in those stories and don't even have anything going on with them so far (Rene may be trying to get his daughter back, but has no emotional revelations about it so no growth there; Dinah is supposed to get some sort of conflict later but nothing yet besides pushing Diggle's and Lance's stories; Curtis has no conflict going for him at all and is only doing this company thing because Felicity is asking him to).

The only issue I have is the increased importance of their support to the series (and in turn an image of decreased importance in the main characters' abilities to be supportive to others) which comes with undeserved increase in time spent with them. That being said they are still support at this point so I guess I'll take that as a consolation prize even though I shouldn't have to.

Edited October 22, 2017 by way2interested

[tangerine95]

I agree they are supporting characters but some of them really drag down the storylines they're supposed to support.And it comes off like its not that Felicity,Digg or Oliver need them for their stories more like they're put there and attached to it so they have something to do.I really dislike this thing arrow does with assigning a newbie to a main character and just having most of their interactions be with that newbie.They almost never mix it up and it results in the team never feeling like an actual team.Also the thing they do is not have consistent OTA interaction even while they acknowledge their importance so that results in Felicity and Diggle having like 2 one on one scenes a season.I hope they solve that now that the flashbacks ending freed up some time but I'm not counting on it tbh.

Edited October 22, 2017 by tangerine95

[Primal Slayer]

 If they are going to add new characters to the team I feel they should treat them as just as important to the other characters who isn't the lead. If they aren't then keeping the cast small and bringing reoccurring characters would've been the best way to go.

Yeah there will be a pecking order to a certain degree which is fine butt for the most,  they should be treated with respect as far as growth and storylines. 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[insomniadreams88]

I’m bitter that Felicity and Diggle can only talk off-screen.

I'm bitter that they have Curtis helping Felicity with things she should be able to do herself but not the other way around, so we have Curtis doing her work (or fixing it) in the bunker and going out in the field. (Also still bitter about MG’s remarks about Felicity in a mask.)

I’m bitter that because they have Curtis helping Felicity with her Overwatch work I’m bitter about  them going into business together because otherwise, I’d probably be all for it. (Also bitter I’m worried the “Mr. Terrific and Overwatch”/“Overwatch and Mr. Terrific” is foreshadowing them naming the company.)

I'm bitter that we haven’t gotten a Felicity/Lance scene in so long.

I'm bitter that the symbols in the title card spelling out OTA is probably the closest we’ll get to OTA on screen together for a long time because of the newbies and probably mainly because of all the Dinah/Diggle scenes they seem to love so far this season. 

[tangerine95]

5 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

 If they are going to add new characters to the team I feel they should treat them as just as important to the other characters who isn't the lead. If they aren't then keeping the cast small and bringing reoccurring characters would've been the best way to go.

I don't think that's really the thing to do because you can't treat characters who have shown up in season 5 with the same importance as those we've watched since season 1 and who are basically family to Oliver with those who are pretty much strangers.I do think keeping the cast small would have been better because it's not an ensemble show and they don't have the time and space for everyone they added.

Edited October 22, 2017 by tangerine95

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, tangerine95 said:

I don't think that's really the thing to do because you can't treat characters who have shown up in season 5 with the same importance as those we've watched since season 1 and who are basically family to Oliver with those who are pretty much strangers.I do think keeping the cast small would have been better because it's not an ensemble show.

True but if they bring on new people full time, they should get storylines and focus just as everyone else does. Building them up to have a purpose is important if they plan on keeping them around long term. They shouldn't automatically have the same relationships that the older characters have to one another but it should be something that starts to be built upon and have their own unique relationship with everyone to provide a new pov.

Arrow certainly doesn't need as large of a cast as they have. 3-5 is perfect but if they insist on having so many as they currently do, put em to good use. 

[tangerine95]

12 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

True but if they bring on new people full time, they should get storylines and focus just as everyone else does. Building them up to have a purpose is important if they plan on keeping them around long term. They shouldn't automatically have the same relationships that the older characters have to one another but it should be something that starts to be built upon and have their own unique relationship with everyone to provide a new pov.

Arrow certainly doesn't need as large of a cast as they have. 3-5 is perfect but if they insist on having so many as they currently do, put em to good use. 

And they're giving them that somewhat but imo it's not making the show any better especially because none of them bring anything new to the show that isn't or wasn't already there.Dinah is a 3rd telling of the BC story and that really wasn't needed in the slightest,Curtis legit just takes skills from Felicity and is the one fighter they could 100% do without and Rene is kinda Roy 2.0 and putting a lot of focus on him in season 5 didn't seem to go over that well.

I don't really think they are putting them to good use most of the time but I do think that's what they're trying to do by having them attached to Felicity,Digg or Oliver's storylines.

Edited October 22, 2017 by tangerine95

[Guest]

The trouble is, these new relationships/dynamics come at the expense of the old ones which isn't fair. You can't bring a few new characters onto a show in its fifth season and focus on them all the time, ignoring what people enjoyed about it in the first place. Why should anyone keep watching if they're not giving us scenes of friendships we've seen build over 3 plus seasons? I do appreciate the need to mix things up but they're not. They're pretending friendships don't exist just so they can build up the newbies. It's such bad writing.

Same goes with respect to giving the newbies purpose. IMO the newbies don't really add anything new. They're just taking away from characters who used to do their jobs previously and are now getting sidelined. 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Guest

[Primal Slayer]

Arrow writers are very mediocre so it isn't surprising that they can't write for what they've been given. 

I don'tthink the newbies are being focused on all the time though. It's been 2 episodes into s6 and Dinah probably got the most screen time out of the 3. But Greys Anatomy has added a whole new round of cast members throughout the years that out weigh their OGs that have big storylines. Correct me if I'm wrong since I dropped it after s5 but a lot of those characters get focus (from what I see online and promos) so it can certainly be done and it still resonates with the audience. 

With the storyline we've had these two episodes, I think the way they've paired everyone up is fine,  I don't think it should become the main focus for each character and that they should continually mix it up and have OTA scenes here and there. 

Until they are ready to trim the cast again, we have all these characters and I'd rather not have them be useless and be there to fill the room, and with 23 episodes everyone should be able to get a decent focus (But it is Arrow so their reality does not match mine)

If I could, I'd keep the s4 cast until the end with characters like Curtis be reoccurring and be used like Lyla.

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, tangerine95 said:

I don't think that's really the thing to do because you can't treat characters who have shown up in season 5 with the same importance as those we've watched since season 1 and who are basically family to Oliver with those who are pretty much strangers.I do think keeping the cast small would have been better because it's not an ensemble show and they don't have the time and space for everyone they added.

I agree. Also they needed to find a way to introduce them gradually..to make them find their place in the show and in the team in a way that feels natural. Like they did with Roy..he was introduced and he became part of the team when it made sense to the story and his relationships with the original team members were different, he wasn't forced in a dynamic that wasn't his own. With the newbies they were just there, masks and all, from the first episode they appeared and they found Dinah on the internet. It's lazy storytelling. Same with their relationships with the team members..the only relationship I think they nailed that was developed in a natural way is Lance/Rene because when I watch their scenes I don't feel like "Lance should have this conversation with someone else" which instead happens a lot when I watch other scenes between the original cast and the newbies. If you have to pretend relationships that have been there for years don't exist to find something to do for the new characters it means the new characters are superfluous. You didn't find them their own space on the show so you can force them everywhere if you want but until they are replaceable it's a waste of energy.

28 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

. But Greys Anatomy has added a whole new round of cast members throughout the years that out weigh their OGs that have big storylines. Correct me if I'm wrong since I dropped it after s5 but a lot of those characters get focus (from what I see online and promos) so it can certainly be done and it still resonates with the audience. 

 

Grey's Anatomy for me is a perfect example of introducing new people and still respecting the relationships they created before. To make an example the year they introduced Meredith's sister..in the end they kept only her on the regular of all the interns and they wrote a dynamic that was unique. She didn't replace anyone and she couldn't be replaced. Same when they introduced the other people from the other hospital..they killed off shortly after those that didn't work and kept the ones that did. And they too forged unique relationships with the original characters..Meredith's friendship with Christina and Alex was always a focus..they never made it feel like they were ignoring that because there were new people. If only the Arrow writers knew how to write like that I'd be sold.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[apinknightmare]

31 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

But Greys Anatomy has added a whole new round of cast members throughout the years that out weigh their OGs that have big storylines.

Only 4 (I think) of their OGs are still around (Meredith, Alex, Bailey and Webber), but they all still share plenty of screen time with each other that references their shared pasts together, even though the new people outnumber them by a lot and they all have new stories with said new people. Like, Meredith and Alex are still close, and we still see them confiding in each other and having each other's backs. And they actually show their conversations and interactions, even though they don't lead in screen time.  I think that would make people happy, instead of always referencing—for example—conversations Felicity and Diggle have had that we never see anymore. 

[Guest]

Well, yeah. This is the trouble. It's not difficult to keep original dynamics and add new ones if you're competent at your job but Arrow writers are shit. Haha.

Give me Delicity, give me OTA and I'll be much more willing to embrace all the newbies. The more they refuse to show the friendships I enjoyed, the more I resent the new ones. It's that simple tbh. 

The fact that this could be solved with better writing is especially frustrating. 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Guest

[leopardprint]

I think Arrow has just lost interest or perhaps time to devote to proper relationship development. Forward movement only comes after someone dies or almost dies or is going to die or previously died. Myson is going to get the lion's share of it and arguably that relationship does need it. 

It's not even that Dinah and Diggle don't have some common ground. Imagine if Dinah had approached Diggle about knowing what's it's like to experience something so physically altering (because it's not like there is another character on Arrow who could possibly understand a life altering injury...?) 

To me this is the most frustrating thing about Arrow, they write what could be very compelling storylines but then focus on the wrong elements. 

Edited October 22, 2017 by leopardprint

[apinknightmare]

10 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Give me Delicity, give me OTA and I'll be much more willing to embrace all the newbies.

Delicty and OTA haven't really been a thing in going on 4 years. At this point? It ain't coming back. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Delicty and OTA haven't really been a thing in going on 4 years. At this point? It ain't coming back. 

Thanks for that! 

Haha, no seriously, I know. That's why I'm bitter. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

This is the only show I know of that pulls back on the stuff people actually want to see. You love OTA? OK, you'll see that once a season. You want more Delicity? Here's a line from Diggle about not leaving Felicity while bombs are exploding. That's your Delicity moment of the season. You want Olicity? We won't have them interact for more than half a season and pretend they never were engaged while patting ourselves on the back that we're showing the "awkwardness" of a former engaged couple. 

Like what a lot of people posted above, it's that the show has taken away the stuff I want to watch, the stuff that made me love Arrow that makes it so difficult to embrace what the show has added. Shoving the newbies down my throat while taking away Delicity and OTA will only make me resent the B team even more. On top of that, their addition has seriously compromised and weakened the skills of the original members. A friend had reminded me that Oliver was used to putting down all these bad guys by himself but now he needs help? All the show did is add more generic bad guys. This was a problem that became quite evident in season four when they had Oliver, Diggle, Laurel and Thea out in the field. And it's a problem even now. Tinah, Rene and Curtis bring nothing to this show. I hate to say that because as a POC I love seeing representation on screen but not when the characters don't fit.

Edited October 22, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[bijoux]

29 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

To me this is the most frustrating thing about Arrow, they write what could be very compelling storylines but then focus on the wrong elements. 

You're not wrong there.

[DrSpaceman10]

It's funny because OTA + Lance (to a lesser extent), are the only things that have lasted from Season 1 - Now. Every other character/mask/relationship has come and gone, even Thea's pretty much gone now. OTA is Arrow, which is why it's so odd that they don't honor/show those relationships more. Most of the time it's like TPTB are purposely going out of their way to avoid having scenes between the three of them, which makes no sense to me at all. 

[Primal Slayer]

 The never ending putty patrol in s4 was the worst. I hated that they didn't really give any of them personalities apart from Diggles brother and didn't give Darhk any right hand men. 

 

I know MG and co. Like to blame the failure of s4 on magic but that was the least of the seasons problems. 

[tangerine95]

13 minutes ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

It's funny because OTA + Lance (to a lesser extent), are the only things that have lasted from Season 1 - Now. Every other character/mask/relationship has come and gone, even Thea's pretty much gone now. OTA is Arrow, which is why it's so odd that they don't honor/show those relationships more. Most of the time it's like TPTB are purposely going out of their way to avoid having scenes between the three of them, which makes no sense to me at all. 

Yeah and I think that's why OTA is so popular.Because it's the only constant team that they built by having all of them have their unique roles and by having them build different bonds with each other.Other team members usually weren't introduced like that.

Idk why they don't have consistent ota interaction either.Sometimes it feels like they think if they do then the audience won't accept or pay attention to the newbies they want to push.

Edited October 22, 2017 by tangerine95

[Primal Slayer]

 That was definitely a problem I had with them in regards to OTA/Thea-Laurel. Having neither really interact with Diggle or Felicity until so late into the series and essentially on a different island. And of course once we got Laurel/Felicity OR any variation of Laurel/Thea with those two it wasn't built on that much. The writers just continued driving that wedge.

[SmallScreenDiva]

37 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

know MG and co. Like to blame the failure of s4 on magic but that was the least of the seasons problems. 

Do they? I thought they blamed it on people not liking Oliver being happy (although it's funny they're selling Oliver as happy now). I beg to disagree, though. Magic was one of the major problems of S4, IMO. When you have the Green Arrow, who can do all this amazing fighting stuff, being flung around and choked out by magic, things get boring really quickly. 

[thegirlsleuth]

A couple of years ago they acknowledged that launching all these new shows off the back of Arrow really hurt Arrow and they would stop. While there are no new shows planned, they keep doing insta launches of heroes that then all fall flat.  Even Thea and Laurel weren't handled well even though they had fleshed out backgrounds. Laurel's training wasn't shown on screen and Thea's reason for joining wasn't made clear--she seemed to pick up the bow only because Roy gave her his costume.  Curtis has both Thea and Laurel's problem--Curtis wasn't a natural fighter and had no training and lost his marriage to a great guy. His only reason for joining is that he got jumped once.  You've all already covered the problems with Rene and Dinah well.

The only sidekick they successfully integrated was Roy, who expressed interest in the vigilante life as early as the back half of season one and didn't get brought into the Arrowcave until the back half of season two.  They showed his motivation and growth as a fighter and a person, and so he was a fully formed member of the team by the end.

[Primal Slayer]

55 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Do they? I thought they blamed it on people not liking Oliver being happy (although it's funny they're selling Oliver as happy now). I beg to disagree, though. Magic was one of the major problems of S4, IMO. When you have the Green Arrow, who can do all this amazing fighting stuff, being flung around and choked out by magic, things get boring really quickly. 

I'm pretty sure they do. The fun thing for me and introducing magic/metas into arrow is it gives the team a threat that they really have to think about beating them and think outside the box. The writers introduced such an interesting concept with Thea not being effected by DD but did nothing with it and with the team as big as it was they could've put them to better use for taking him on. 

[Hiveminder]

6 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

 A friend had reminded me that Oliver was used to putting down all these bad guys by himself but now he needs help?

This is an example of the writers not using what they’ve been given properly. You need Oliver to need help in the field? How about saying his nearly ten years of accumulated injuries are taking their toll, and he physically can’t do some of the things he used to. No. Instead he’s just suddenly much worse at fighting. 

They could accomplish their ‘tent pole’ moments in ways that actually respect their own characters, but instead give us a write by numbers show with seemingly accidental moments of brilliance. It’s so frustrating. 

[EmilyBettFan]

They had to "kill" Oliver to give Laurel her one of many arcs. Same with Sara, her sister. You don't have a good character if you need to "kill" the lead and the sibling.

Edited October 24, 2017 by EmilyBettFan

[SmallScreenDiva]

37 minutes ago, EmilyBettFan said:

They had to "kill" Oliver to give Laurel her one of her many arcs. Same with Sara, her sister. You don't have a good character if you need to "kill" the lead and the sibling.

What's interesting about that arc is that AJK was talking it up as a BC trilogy of sorts one minute, and totally denying it the next. Probably because they realized not a lot of people were interested in that. In fact, those 3 episodes showed who the leader of the group is when Oliver is not around: Felicity. Remember the framing of her seated in her chair flanked by Roy, Laurel and Digg, all standing, while facing off against Malcolm? 

[thegirlsleuth]

4 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

What's interesting about that arc is that AJK was talking it up as a BC trilogy of sorts one minute, and totally denying it the next. Probably because they realized not a lot of people were interested in that. In fact, those 3 episodes showed who the leader of the group is when Oliver is not around: Felicity. Remember the framing of her seated in her chair flanked by Roy, Laurel and Digg, all standing, while facing off against Malcolm? 

I wondered if they "learned" from the Canary arc, because instead of having Felicity leave and come back and leave and come back within three episodes, and have Diggle hang in the Arrow cave or the helicopter while Laurel and Roy fight crime, they might be coming up with better reasons for Oliver's replacement to be Dinah down the line.  They might be positioning for Felicity to be focused on tech and Digg to be taken down by his injuries so that Dinah is forced to lead the group.  I'm not absolutely sure about it, and let's be honest, the real reason breaks down to "because comics", but I could see this happening.

And again, this show should not have a Black Canary.  Black Canary should be the hero of the story, not the sidekick, and every effort to have a Black Canary on Oliver's show is going to leave her as a follower instead of a leader that is not in line with the comics' Black Canary.

[statsgirl]

9 hours ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

It's funny because OTA + Lance (to a lesser extent), are the only things that have lasted from Season 1 - Now. Every other character/mask/relationship has come and gone, even Thea's pretty much gone now. OTA is Arrow, which is why it's so odd that they don't honor/show those relationships more. Most of the time it's like TPTB are purposely going out of their way to avoid having scenes between the three of them, which makes no sense to me at all. 

It's not difficult to bring in new characters -- keep the elements that people are tuning in to the show for (OTA, Delicity, Olicity, Lance) and add the new characters slowly, kind of like adding liquid to cornstarch.

The EPs of this show blow it by removing those elements until the final few episodes of each season and pushing the new characters they want us to love front and centre.  This season OTA rarely interacts (did Felicity speak to either Oliver or Diggle alone this episode?) and each member is paired with a newbie: Diggle with Dinah, Lance with Rene, Felicity with Curtis and Oliver with Rene and William.  It's a recipe for failure, as they found out from previous seasons.

2 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

And again, this show should not have a Black Canary.  Black Canary should be the hero of the story, not the sidekick, and every effort to have a Black Canary on Oliver's show is going to leave her as a follower instead of a leader that is not in line with the comics' Black Canary.

If Black Canary isn't going to be Oliver's equal, like Castle and Beckett, then she shouldn't be on the show.  Anything else has failed.  DC isn't doing the TV version of Arrow any favours by keeping a Black Canary on for their video games.

[Hiveminder]

They ruined the possibility of doing BC justice from the very start when they set up the sister triangle and with every development of Laurel’s personality. Their relationship was never equal in any way, and they had no respect for each other. 

They had a tiny chance to course correct by making Sara their BC, but they blew it. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

9 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

DC isn't doing the TV version of Arrow any favours by keeping a Black Canary on for their video games.

I think different mediums can have their version of BC, e.g video games, comic books, etc. But creators and fans shouldn't use that as an argument for keeping with canon. They can enjoy their stuff. I'll enjoy the TV show where Oliver Queen is with Felicity Smoak. 

[statsgirl]

I don't know why they insisted on having yet another Black Canary on the TV show if not for the video game tie-in that happened just at that time.

[kismet]

On 10/22/2017 at 11:06 AM, tv echo said:

However, the Arrow EPs now appear to be making OTA a thing of the past. I realize that shows have to evolve and change. But why couldn't Arrow have evolved and changed but still kept OTA at its core?

I think its because the writers do not know or have a clue how to write for non-masks. Dig & FS might have been given mask-like roles, but they are not masks. Well I'm really bitter about life in general today. So I'll just be honest, I think they struggle because Dig is a POC and FS is not your typical female character to be damseled or fridged. They moved out cliches and tropes, so now the writers have nothing to fall back on.

They have issues working outside of the box. I don't know if its a fear thing or a lack of skill. But a lot of their originality and delving into character exploration really disappeared a few seasons ago.

I really really wish OTA was the core of the storytelling and not used just as a last-ditch plot rescue attempt or a tease to keep the fans invested.

[tennisgurl]

I hate that this show has made me hate Curtis. I thought he was a great character at first. He was funny and sweet and a great friend of Felicity, and I loved that his sexual orientation was just there and not a big deal. Then they started giving him more and more scenes, made his personality so goofy and jokey that it was like he was incapable of just having a damn conversation without a quip, and they had him pointlessly take the place of Felicity as the resident tech person. Then, they had him pointlessly become a vigilante, expressing a deep desire to go out and fight crime out of NOWHERE, even letting it ruin his marriage, and run around throwing around stupid little balls and being a liability to all the people with actual combat experience. 

They took a fun supporting character, and made him a super annoying and useless main character. 

[way2interested]

6 minutes ago, kismet said:

So I'll just be honest, I think they struggle because Dig is a POC and FS is not your typical female character to be damseled or fridged. They moved out cliches and tropes, so now the writers have nothing to fall back on.

So because they moved beyond cliches and tropes now they're bad at writing Diggle and Felicity(I don't understand your phrasing?)? And if Felicity isn't the typical character to be damseled/fridged, isn't the fact they don't do that mean that they don't use only cliches and tropes?

[Primal Slayer]

I believe they mean that the writers aren't good enough to write above cliches/tropes. They evolved the characters to a point where they can't think of anything to do with them.  

[Hiveminder]

6 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I believe they mean that the writers aren't good enough to write above cliches/tropes. They evolved the characters to a point where they can't think of anything to do with them.  

That’s how I read it.

[way2interested]

Cliche plots yes but why mention race or gender in it?

[kismet]

13 minutes ago, way2interested said:

So because they moved beyond cliches and tropes now they're bad at writing Diggle and Felicity(I don't understand your phrasing?)? And if Felicity isn't the typical character to be damseled/fridged, isn't the fact they don't do that mean that they don't use only cliches and tropes?

In a way, because if FS was a typical damsel/fridged then they would have easy stories to write. The writers rely heavily on tropes and cliches, so because Dig & FS defy they their little boxes, the writers are out of quality storylines for them. Hence, the fact that they wrap up all their interesting plots within an episode or give it to another character. Also, as a result the writers spend more time on the newbies, or stick the OGs on baby-sitting duties.

Personally, I do not think that there are no more good stories for Dig & FS, I just think the writers can't access or write them. Bad & weak writing have brought down a good show and some of the most intriguing characters.