Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[zxy556575]

I guess Oliver has completely forgotten his own feelings of betrayal and heartbreak at the lies he's been told, mostly notably by his mother and sister.

[bijoux]

I guess Oliver has completely forgotten his own feelings of betrayal and heartbreak at the lies he's been told, mostly notably by his mother and sister.

Let's not forget Robert. I think he should get the top spot.

[tv echo]

I'm bitter because the EPs are slowly destroying all the good things about Arrow in their greed for more spinoffs and money:
 

-- A show (somewhat) grounded in reality
-- An Oliver who's a badass fighter
-- Original Team Arrow
-- Oliver's character evolution from immaturity to maturity
-- A Felicity who's a badass IT genius
-- Olicity

 

Now we've got cosplayers in bird costumes, time travel, characters diminished to prop up other characters, OOC writing to serve plot points, inconsistent storytelling, and a nearly unrecognizable show.

 

Last season was the Season of Death.  This season is the Season of Dread.

[Carrie Ann]

But no one should be that relieved that they cuddle up someone's chest and appear as if nothing bad is happening. Guilt, remorse, hesitation cross people's face. I've kept secrets from loved ones and I can't think of one time I was ever that relieved in their presence. Heck, when I'm stressed I've been known to unwillingly/unconsciously smile. It's a nervous tick. That is not what was going on in that Cuddle. That was a smile of happiness & contentment, not the emotions to be attached with a lie of this magnitude.

 

In the end it really is the happy cuddling that's the worst of it. Oliver lying in and of itself certainly wouldn't be good but it could be understandable since he's had a lot happen and unhappen to him in a day or two. All it needed was a different reaction during the cuddle. It could have even started with a smile but then switched to conflicted or sad. Does someone here send asks to SA either via Twitter or Facebook? I really would like to know why he chose to play the scene that way.

 

I have a slightly different interpretation of that scene that makes it a little less awful for me, but I'm gonna post it in the OQ thread because I don't want to dilute the hate here. ;)

[calliope1975]

But no one should be that relieved that they cuddle up someone's chest and appear as if nothing bad is happening. Guilt, remorse, hesitation cross people's face. I've kept secrets from loved ones and I can't think of one time I was ever that relieved in their presence. Heck, when I'm stressed I've been known to unwillingly/unconsciously smile. It's a nervous tick. That is not what was going on in that Cuddle. That was a smile of happiness & contentment, not the emotions to be attached with a lie of this magnitude.

 

And that is why I am so mad at what they did to OQ. OQ makes mistakes, but he is never cheerful or gleeful afterwards. It was such a callback to the douche he was as Ollie, it was alarming. However, even Ollie I could excuse as a result of bad parenting & other stuff. Not the case with s4 OQ, he has had 3+ years post-island & 5 years of HELL to understand that secret & lies carry consequences. He should know better than to make that facial expression. He should also know better than to lie, but it was more his reaction to getting away with it that bothered me the most.

 

I can't even scroll my dash at the moment because of all the gifsets with spoiler pics make me mad. Until this secret is out, all I see is lying Oliver. I think tainted is the right word because I can no longer enjoy any of the meaningful touches, glances, etc. between Olicity that will surely be present in the upcoming eps because that's just the way SA and EBR roll. At this moment, Oliver is a lying liar who lies, and is being completely bankrolled by the woman he is lying to. (I don't know why the money part makes me the maddest. It's a weird thing to fixate on, but damn, I'm pissed that she's financially responsible for a guy who doesn't trust her enough to tell the truth.) 

 

I'm going to live in AU land for awhile because I don't know how they are going to come back from this. Funny that all the buildup to my OTPs of OTPs might be completely undone because of this. 

[Password]

touches, glances, etc. between Olicity that will surely be present in the upcoming eps because that's just the way SA and EBR roll.

The fact that SA and EBR still reel me in like a fish with their relationship is a sad reality. Too much.

[AyChihuahua]

I can't even scroll my dash at the moment because of all the gifsets with spoiler pics make me mad. Until this secret is out, all I see is lying Oliver. I think tainted is the right word because I can no longer enjoy any of the meaningful touches, glances, etc. between Olicity that will surely be present in the upcoming eps because that's just the way SA and EBR roll. At this moment, Oliver is a lying liar who lies, and is being completely bankrolled by the woman he is lying to. (I don't know why the money part makes me the maddest. It's a weird thing to fixate on, but damn, I'm pissed that she's financially responsible for a guy who doesn't trust her enough to tell the truth.)  

That's where I am.  I get that they wanted to stall the wedding (which, really, is dumb, why not just have a regular-length engagement?).  I hate that they wanted to break them up, but it's practically tv law, so I could maybe roll with that.  But they aren't just breaking up over a fight or a misunderstanding or something.  She's very validly going to dump him because he is a lying scumbag who will have completely broken her trust...AGAIN.  I sincerely do not see how the magic can ever return from this, and more mundanely, I don't see how she could ever trust him again.  So, when she inevitably does because they'll write it like that, I will find it entirely unbelievable, and to me it will make her a dumb doormat.

 

The money thing bothers the shit out of me, too.  Just one more way he's using her, and he's used her an awful lot over the years.  It also bothers me that he's lying to her in their home.  It's like when people cheat in their marital bed.  It's even worse than cheating in a cheap motel, because it's an additional sign of disrespect.

[Chaser]

I don't understand why writers believe surprise children are enjoyed by the audience. I'm trying to think of a show that did it so successfully it carried the trope and I can't.

I don't care how cute Oliver is playing with his kid. All I see him twisting the knife deeper in Felicitys back.

[Kordi]

 

Just came across this pic in another thread: What TVLine Readers Are Thankful:

http://tvline.com/gallery/tvline-readers-give-thanks-2015/#!1/arrow-oliver-felicity-olicity/

 

The article is from just a week ago!!! I don't know whether I want to laugh hysterically or simply to cry... Anyway, I'm bitter :-(

[dtissagirl]

I know this is the bitterness thread, but it brings me joy imagining Guggie reading every professional review ever calling this storyline on its BS.

 

And then he's gonna chant "organic organic organic" to himself for a day or two, and keep it going anyway, because ego >>>>>>>

[kismet]

Most garbage is organic too... :)

[wonderwall]

So I came up with what the writers have to do in order for me to quit watching:

• Kill Digg or Felicity
• Have Oliver revert back to "Ollie" the cheating playboy
• Kill Olicity by having Oliver cheat on Felicity or by having them not learn their lesson and keep more huge secrets - That's my limit for them.

 

I mean the writers will probably fuck up as many times as they want but those three aforementioned is where I draw the line. Unfortunately for me, the huge draw for Arrow isn't the writing, but it's the acting and the chemistry between SA/EBR/DR. So as long as they're on the show, I'm going to be weak as hell and still watch it. The best I can do is overlook the shitty storylines like BM. 

Silver lining for the BM storyline? Everyone hates her so the writers are obviously not going to keep her or the kid on long term. 

[kismet]

So I came up with what the writers have to do in order for me to quit watching:

• Kill Digg or Felicity
• Have Oliver revert back to "Ollie" the cheating playboy
• Kill Olicity by having Oliver cheat on Felicity or by having them not learn their lesson and keep more huge secrets - That's my limit for them.

 

I mean the writers will probably fuck up as many times as they want but those three aforementioned is where I draw the line. Unfortunately for me, the huge draw for Arrow isn't the writing, but it's the acting and the chemistry between SA/EBR/DR. So as long as they're on the show, I'm going to be weak as hell and still watch it. The best I can do is overlook the shitty storylines like BM. 

Silver lining for the BM storyline? Everyone hates her so the writers are obviously not going to keep her or the kid on long term. 

My list is similar. I'll add getting OQ & LL back together romantically.

 

I'm primarily giving OQ a pass on keeping the BM big secret for now because there are other people wrapped up in it. It's more than just his secret to tell. And its a relatively new secret. If it had been years old, that would have been a different story. It also is about him I think trying to do the right thing by everyone involved, and sadly that is not always possible in real life. I also know that he does not want to be keeping the secret, so that to me is also important. If he was willingly keeping the secret because he wanted to keep the secret that would be different. The majority of the other secrets he has kept has been because he wants to keep them.

 

The writing has never been the draw for me either. I did appreciate the risk taking abandon they wrote s1&2 with, but s3 has taught me those might have been exceptions. S4 has been hit or miss at best writing wise. It's always been about the characters for me and so far s4 has been back on target with everyone's characterizations. And overall the acting has been pretty awesome. So I'll just look other places for better writing & hope Arrow regains the kahunas they had in earlier seasons.

[Morrigan2575]

It's funny but I actually find what Oliver did in S3 (leaving the team to be poisoned - even with the antidote) to be a far worse transgression than what happened in 408. I can just imagine the fear and betrayal going through the team's minds and what that would do to their long-term psyche.

I understand that this is compounding the situation but at least with this incident in can somewhat see Oliver's side. I never could with 322, no matter how much people defended his actions I found it deplorable.

[zxy556575]

What the writers would have to do to make me stop watching:

 

Fabricate an entire team of superheroes and make Oliver a neutered supporting player.

 

Oh, right.

[tangerine95]

That's pretty much my list of things that would make me stop watching too.Though adding the kid as a regular and saddling Olicity with raising him would probably make me quit too.

I'm not exactly happy with the baby mama drama but I get where Oliver is coming from even though he's being dumb and its a totally contrived storyline.I think they've left themselves enough room to fix it and if anyone ever suffers consequences on Arrow its Oliver.

I really think its a mistake to give Olicity angst over this.I was expecting drama but i was hoping it won't be related to the kid.Mostly because i have no emotional investment in it at all.I don't care about the kid or Oliver having a relationship with him even though I get thats the right thing for him to do.Though its clear to me they don't care about the kid at all.They focused more on the fact that Oliver has to lie to Felicity and fears he will lose her than they did on him dealing with the fact that he's a father or the actual kid.

Edited December 6, 2015 by tangerine95

[dtissagirl]

I don't care about the kid or Oliver having a relationship with him even though I get thats the right thing for him to do.Though its clear to me they don't care about the kid at all.They focused more on the fact that Oliver has to lie to Felicity and fears he will lose her than they did on him dealing with the fact that he's a father or the actual kid.

 

This. Neither the kid nor BM are actual characters. They're just the cockblocking plot devices. Rationally I get that Oliver wants this, and I sympathize with him, but otoh, emotionally I have less than zero investment in Oliver's relationship with the kid. Because I've just "met" this relationship, and it was introduced to me in the worst possible way, and it's getting in the way of the relationship that I am invested in. At this point I resent the kid more than I'm even willing to warm up to his existence.

Edited December 6, 2015 by dtissagirl

[tangerine95]

This. Neither the kid nor BM are actual characters. They're just the cockblocking plot devices. Rationally I get that Oliver wants this, and I sympathize with him, but otoh, emotionally I have less than zero investment in Oliver's relationship with the kid. Because I've just "met" this relationship, and it was introduced to me in the worst possible way, and it's getting in the way of the relationship that I am invested in. At this point I resent the kid more than I'm even willing to warm up to his existence.

Exactly how I feel.I'm totally resenting the kid and I don't think thats what they're going for.We're supposed to see this as an impossible choice for Oliver but this is just some random kid to me and scenes of Oliver playing with him are not worth Oliver lying to Felicity.

Though I guess that the fact baby mama and the kid are treated as plot devices for olicity drama,it means they will pretty much become irelevant offcreen references once the drama is over.

Edited December 6, 2015 by tangerine95

[dtissagirl]

I had a more emotional reaction the time pre-island douche Oliver thought BM miscarried the kid, than I have now that Oliver actually met the spawn.

 

And I'm aware this is the wrong reaction, because I know the episode was trying to tell me that this is a really important thing to Oliver. I just DO NOT CARE, because they failed to make William someone I'm interested in.

 

You know what would have made William interesting to me? If Felicity/Diggle/Thea knew of his existence, and had emotional reactions to Oliver having a kid, and they all voiced those reactions, and thus made me interested. AH, the irony.

[tangerine95]

Yes it would have helped to see their reactions to the kid and see Oliver actually talk about it to someone who cares about him.All we saw was baby mama throwing his past in his face like she didn't have unprotected sex with the mess that was pre island Oliver.Even the conversation with Barry didn't help much because at that point i was just like yes stay out of his life so i never have to suffer through a scene with the kid or baby mama.

It was always going to be a struggle for me to care about a kid on this show or Oliver being a dad because I'm just not interested in seeing that but making him a source of drama for a couple I'm very invested in made it way worse.

Edited December 6, 2015 by tangerine95

[doesntworkonwood]

One of the things that I really hate about this show is the writers inability to give the characters voices, which makes it really hard to understand the motivations of a character. 

 

They did this last year with Felicity (and Oliver) and are doing it again this year with Oliver, and it's really really frustrating. I spent the majority of last year flip flopping between different interpretations of why Felicity was doing what she was because there were so many different reasons that completely made sense, all of which were produced on this board rather than the show itself. 

 

I understand that obviously a smart writer will leave a bit of room for interpretation, they wont underestimate the audience and think they have to spell it out for us, but these aren't smart writers. Instead of thinking of a motivation and writing it into the story, the seem to think of a motivation, not write it into the story, and then get annoyed or confused when people don't understand where the character is coming from. 

 

It's really frustrating because it's really hard to make up my mind on anything, especially the recent storyline because there's very little in text that explains Oliver's actions, and what little there is can be interpreted in completely opposite ways. If they had just added one or two more lines of dialogue this wouldn't be a problem, but that would require giving Oliver a voice and they seem incapable of doing that. 

[theacostov]

My anger has died down and been replaced by almost indifference/some bitterness. I think my anger after the episode was due to that stupid cuddle, knowledge of what's to come in the next episode and because I was one of those people that genuinely didn't believe Oliver would keep this from Felicity. I logically couldn't come up with a reason why he would need to. But because I had scrubbed S3 from my brain I forgot that these are the writers that write for plot not for character so of course they were going to manufacture a stupid reason. (Tbf I had warning with the horrible and lazy way they handled Sara's resurrection re Laurel)

This season has been so much better than last, that I let my guard down. I thought the writers had learnt from their mistakes (like Felicity with Oliver). I was clearly wrong. So I basically need to change the way I watch the show, which is like last year, spoil myself to the hilt, expect the worse and just enjoy individual interactions without expecting story and character to make sense.

[calliope1975]

I had a more emotional reaction the time pre-island douche Oliver thought BM miscarried the kid, than I have now that Oliver actually met the spawn.

 

And I'm aware this is the wrong reaction, because I know the episode was trying to tell me that this is a really important thing to Oliver. I just DO NOT CARE, because they failed to make William someone I'm interested in.

 

You know what would have made William interesting to me? If Felicity/Diggle/Thea knew of his existence, and had emotional reactions to Oliver having a kid, and they all voiced those reactions, and thus made me interested. AH, the irony.

 

This whole bullshit secret thing kneecapped this story before it could begin. Thea finding out she has a nephew. Diggle giving Oliver advice on how to bond with the kid - I'm sure AJ's around the same age. Felicity empathizing with growing up with a single mother. And then throwing how to keep him safe because his father routinely deals with evil people on top of that. That might have made me care.

 

Instead, all I feel is fuck this kid and his mom. I don't care about her reasons because she isn't a real character. She's a cartoon version of one. I have no sympathy for her because she's shown up seemingly for the sole purpose of providing manufactured angst. I have no loyalty to her as I do the main characters I've spent four years with. It's a narrative fail all around for me.

 

However, I could be reading this all wrong. Maybe the writers' goal is to make me hate everything about this story line. I know they want a reaction. Perhaps abject hate is what they were going for all along. In that case, well done.

Edited December 6, 2015 by calliope1975

[Guest]

I really think its a mistake to give Olicity angst over this.I was expecting drama but i was hoping it won't be related to the kid.Mostly because i have no emotional investment in it at all.I don't care about the kid or Oliver having a relationship with him even though I get thats the right thing for him to do.Though its clear to me they don't care about the kid at all.They focused more on the fact that Oliver has to lie to Felicity and fears he will lose her than they did on him dealing with the fact that he's a father or the actual kid.

 

This.

 

I think the main problem is this was originally supposed to give angst/drama for Oliver and Laurel when they planned out the story (and I actually do think they always planned the secret kid storyline). I have no doubts their initial plan was for Lauriver to be together now and what's a bigger wrench in the works than the appearance of a child conceived while they were in a relationship? This is why the lying about the kid thing doesn't work for Olicity because there's just no emotional investment in seeing how it plays out. It feels unnatural for Oliver to keep such a huge thing from Felicity because a) this happened in the past and she wouldn't care about something from 9 years ago and b) their relationship doesn't fit the lying pattern. It would actually make sense if Oliver wanted to hide this from Laurel because there's history reasons there but it doesn't make any sense why he would choose to hide it from Felicity. That's why they had to contrive it so Samantha made such unrealistic and unreasonable demands. It's all so messy.

 

Basically they need to stop trying to fit Olicity into their original template and work around the characters and relationship they have now. It just doesn't work otherwise and makes Oliver and Felicity look bad. 

[bijoux]

I have no idea why this stuck with me but I noticed multiple mentions of Oliver and the mother having unprotected sex. Was this explicitly said on the show? Because an unplanned pregnancy can happen even when protection is used. I mean, I'm still giving her the side eye for chosing Ollie as a sex partner, but then I do the same with all the women who slept with Ollie because I didn't find him attractive at all.

[bijoux]

This.

 

I think the main problem is this was originally supposed to give angst/drama for Oliver and Laurel when they planned out the story (and I actually do think they always planned the secret kid storyline). I have no doubts their initial plan was for Lauriver to be together now and what's a bigger wrench in the works than the appearance of a child conceived while they were in a relationship? This is why the lying about the kid thing doesn't work for Olicity because there's just no emotional investment in seeing how it plays out. It feels unnatural for Oliver to keep such a huge thing from Felicity because a) this happened in the past and she wouldn't care about something from 9 years ago and b) their relationship doesn't fit the lying pattern. It would actually make sense if Oliver wanted to hide this from Laurel because there's history reasons there but it doesn't make any sense why he would choose to hide it from Felicity. That's why they had to contrive it so Samantha made such unrealistic and unreasonable demands. It's all so messy.

 

Basically they need to stop trying to fit Olicity into their original template and work around the characters and relationship they have now. It just doesn't work otherwise and makes Oliver and Felicity look bad.

I find this simultaneously completely believable and utterly ridiculous. They start the series off with Oliver having a fling with Laurel's sister, leading to the sister's death. Then they have Laurel in a relationship with Oliver's best friend and have them hurt that friend very badly. And then, once they're in a relationship, they bring out the result of one of many affairs Oliver had during their first go. Ahahaha. It reads like crack fic. It almost crosses into the 'so bad it's good' territory.

[dtissagirl]

However, I could be reading this all wrong. Maybe the writers' goal is to make me hate everything about this story line. I know they want a reaction. Perhaps abject hate is what they were going for all along. In that case, well done.

 

The reason I don't believe they wanted the reaction to be hate is MG's pissy tweet. If he hadn't posted that, I might have been able to buy it that they're half-assing this kid storyline because it doesn't work as well for O/F as [they thought] it would for L/O [and I agree this was planned for L/O].  But MG reacting to the negativity almost instantly tells me that he is that deluded. I think he was arrogant enough to think that the reaction to this storyline would be "oooh, finally some pay off for a storyline that was set up so long ago!" Because they think this is legit good storytelling, if I go by the several times Stephen has mentioned how the writers set up things and then make sure to give us the pay off, no matter how long it takes. Which: LOLNO.

Edited December 6, 2015 by dtissagirl

[GirlvsTV]

I'm bitter because all I can think about is the fact that Felicity is going to be in danger because she happens to be in a relationship with big fat lying liar who lies.

And I wish the writers had avoided the 'hero's girlfriend in danger' trope all together. I mean it's kind of ridiculous that Oliver has already been traumatized by having almost every woman in his life either hurt or killed in front of him (Sara, Moira, Thea, Felicity, etc). It's beyond repetitive at this point.

[tangerine95]

I think they expected a negative reaction to this but like with Ray MG always seems to think its because its an obstacle to Olicity instead of people just being annoyed with contrived writing.I think they are aware no one was excited about the kid storyline but they did set it up so they decided to use it as the easiest way to create some angst for olicity.

I'm just hoping they give good pay off for this and Oliver and Felicity get good character development from this even though they set up the lie in a really dumb way.

[Orion]

I'm bitter because all I can think about is the fact that Felicity is going to be in danger because she happens to be in a relationship with big fat lying liar who lies.

And I wish the writers had avoided the 'hero's girlfriend in danger' trope all together. I mean it's kind of ridiculous that Oliver has already been traumatized by having almost every woman in his life either hurt or killed in front of him (Sara, Moira, Thea, Felicity, etc). It's beyond repetitive at this point.

 

To be fair (ugh, sorry I feel like this is becoming my mantra) the writers have gone 4 years without having Felicity be seriously hurt. They even had her shrug off a head injury, twice, and a bullet wound like she got a hangnail.

 

Diggle and Felicity are the only characters that haven't ended up in the hospital in this series. (Quentin, Laurel and Thea have been hospitalized a few times and Ray, Sin, Sara, and Oliver have been their once.) 

 

They have also had all of Felicity is in danger, since the Count, include Felicity at least helping to rescue herself (Slade, Doll Maker, Clock King, Captain Boomerang, the meta human guy from last year that she hit with steam (sorry I don't remember his name I stopped watching at that point, Double Down, and Cooper).

 

This is one storyline that I will give the writers credit for. They have held off on this trope for a long time even avoiding having the Hood rescue Felicity from danger before she knew who he was and once she was moved in the LI role it has taken them a year and half to pull this story thread. We were never not going to have her eventually hurt. I'm just glad they have waited as long as they did. And I hope it doesn't become a reoccurring thing.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Orion

[thegirlsleuth]

I do think this storyline is a carryover from the time when Oliver and Laurel were meant to be, and the EPs didn't adjust based on the new romantic trajectory.  Considering that the baby mama storyline was introduced late in season two and that they'd already changed course by then, it shows a remarkable level of pigheadedness that they stuck with this stupid, stupid storyline.

 

And then, of course, there is how this was handled.  I really didn't think there were going to go with "secrets and liesss", where there were so many organic ways to handle this and when Oliver has been such a different person this season.  Considering Oliver's need to keep people safe, his relationship with his mother, Felicity's feelings of abandonment and her relationship with her father there was plenty of plot for Oliver and Oliver/Felicity, some, I hate to say, that could have led to a breakup if they felt a need to go in that direction.  I had sort of wondered whether the Sara resurrection storyline they saddled Laurel with was some sort of plan to make Laurel unsympathetic (as part of a master plan to kill her off later this season), but after this baby mama storyline, I've figured out I was  giving them too much credit.  It is just good old-fashioned bad writing.

 

I also think they underestimated how much the hard-core audience was traumatized by season three's melodrama, because in addition to offending everyone's intelligence, this whole baby mama storyline seems to be provoking this visceral reaction among viewers who do NOT want to go through the contrived drama of season three again.  A lot of the betrayal seems to be between the viewers and the writers in a "You said we were DONE with this!" way.  

 

After part one of the crossover, I was thinking that I probably wasn't going to watch LoT because the Hawks were super-annoying.  I now think I'm going to skip it because Guggenheim is in control of that show and I blame him the contortions they had to bend the characters and plots into in season three and the last episode, and I want absolutely nothing to do with anything he touches.  He is a truly terrible writer.  

Edited December 6, 2015 by thegirlsleuth

[bijoux]

I'm bitter because all I can think about is the fact that Felicity is going to be in danger because she happens to be in a relationship with big fat lying liar who lies.

 

Does this lie really put Felicity in danger? I mean in danger of being emotionally hurt because didn't include her in the circle of trust (which was the biggest thing for her originally, not that he kept this to himself but that he chose to rely on Barry, not on her), sure. But I don't see it putting her in physical danger, which is what I gather you mean.

[GirlvsTV]

Does this lie really put Felicity in danger? I mean in danger of being emotionally hurt because didn't include her in the circle of trust (which was the biggest thing for her originally, not that he kept this to himself but that he chose to rely on Barry, not on her), sure. But I don't see it putting her in physical danger, which is what I gather you mean.

I meant that she is

in danger because she is being targeted by DD because she is close to Oliver.

Having that lie between Oliver and Felicity weakens their relationship and it just makes me more bitter on Felicity's behalf.

To be fair (ugh, sorry I feel like this is becoming my mantra) the writers have gone 4 years without having Felicity be seriously hurt. They even had her shrug off a head injury, twice, and a bullet wound like she got a hangnail.

I actually don't have an issue with Felicity being in danger in general -

I have an issue with her being a target just because she's close to Oliver. If DD were focusing on her because of her work with the Arrow or her role in busting Ray out I wouldn't mind.

I loved when they used Felicity to sort of turn the trope on its head at the end of s2 and I wish they would have continued approaching the use of clichéd story lines in that way.

Also, I'm just really tired of the show creating drama by traumatizing Oliver even more than he already is. I mean, I'm not his biggest fan right now but I'd optimistically thought we'd left misery!porn Arrow behind when season 3 ended.

Edited December 6, 2015 by GirlvsTV

[Genki]

Ray Palmer put her on DD's watch list initially. 

Although she does seem to be targeted next week because of Oliver.

[kismet]

I think the most frustrating part about the love child (I want to call it that because I can then hear Diana Ross singing in my head & that soothes the bitterness) story is that with a few minor tweaks the story could still provide drama and lead to a break up. There could still be tension between O/F. Adjusting to having a secret love child alive is not an easy thing. So they could have written realistic drama stuff. The lying is just not the right wedge to use for O/F. Just like FS not talking to OQ during the love triangle of s3. It works against the natural ebb & flow of their relationship, which just makes it feel contrived. I don't care if they stall O/F relationship. I'm a big girl TV watcher I know they will probably do it. I just don't need all the contrived BS. Even if I can understand OQ's actions & motivations it doesn't mean I'm not pissed or angry at him & the writers. Interestingly, the only way I can deal with this storyline is by thinking about the child. I'm invested in his well-being. I don't need him on my screen, but I want to know that he is being prioritized and taken care of because he is an innocent child with parents prone to make ill-thought out decisions in the heat of the moment. And as of right now, I'm not sure I can trust the writers with the child's welfare.

 

Part of me was looking forward to the love child (LC) story because I thought it could be written as a realistic wedge sans the lying. FS has first hand experience growing up without a father & a mother who probably dated, so she would know what that child's life is like. There could have been some tension between OQ & FSs expectations and realities. ALso I thought it was a good way to show a mature OQ without needing to knock up FS. We could get cute father/son moments every now and then, but none of the drag of having to write a plotline for a child. And I could see the one of them might be more gung ho than the other to have OQ involved in the child's life. Add to that the natural tension between BM & FS, since it's natural that their be some initial tension between them.

 

Also, here is the kicker. They knew they were upping the DD drama and coming after OQ & his loved ones. Wouldn't it have been better to have BM be open to having OQ meet his son. And then in the Jan premiere after all the drama goes down have OQ call BM and establish that he needs to get things safer before he spends too much time with LC and makes him a target. If they wanted to continue the drama between OQ & FS, they could have had OQ pulling away from his son to "protect" him and FS having issues with that having grown up without her father. Then her father comes back reeks havoc and OQ is kinda proven right for a few eps. And then it settles itself out by the end of the season.

 

It's not like the writers are writing these stories in a vacuum. There was no need to make the BM force OQ to lie except to allow contrived drama, that is just downright weak writing & not enjoyable to any subset of the fandom. The keeping a secret is understandable to a degree (not the way they wrote the lines, but that's a whole other story). And most importantly, it gives OQ an out which is why they did it. But its just so dumb... and they promised us they were done with the dumb. I just hope this is the last of their perfect for Loliver story arcs they are trying to squeeze Olicity into without tweaking it.

Edited December 6, 2015 by kismet

[Chaser]

As someone who works in finance, it annoys me Moira Queen would write a personal check to bribe the BM.

The paper trail Moira!

[apinknightmare]

Can I just say though, her handwriting was PERFECTION.

[EmeraldArcher]

I'm in the camp of not caring about the kid AT ALL, even though I was initially looking forward to seeing this storyline advance Oliver's characterization. HA!

I guess what the stupid writers actually went with makes it impossible for me to even consider Oliver a father just because he played with the kid for about 5 minutes. Also, 9YOs aren't that dumb that they'd care if some random dude who they've spent a total of 5 bland minutes ever came back to spend more time with them. Just because there is a biological connection doesn't make Oliver an insta-dad. He probably hasn't given BM a single thought since he snuggled into Laurel's lap feeling like he'd be sadder if he wasn't just so freaking relieved.

I guess it bugs me when biology is used as irrefutable evidence of parenthood (I don't mean paternity) and when it confers a weightiness that the relationship hasn't earned. Families are created in so many more ways than biologically that I wish Oliver could have had time to breathe and think about what he wanted to do. He didn't abandon William, but he clearly didn't want him or mourn when he thought BM lost the pregnancy.

Despite Oliver gazing wistfully at Felicity in Lyla's hospital room after Sara's birth, we haven't had a clue that he's ever thought about fatherhood. Maybe seeing William at Jitters "galvanized"* a desire to have a child, but I still think a man like Oliver would just need some time to process before committing to such a life-altering relationship for everyone involved. I think Oliver is a good guy and would want to be the kid's dad, but Mr. I-Just-Want-You-To-Be-Happy would strive to ensure it would be what was best for the kid, too.

*SA's favorite word when discussing storylines this season.

Edited to fix a grammar error. I don't dangle maybes, just participles.

Edited December 7, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[bijoux]

I hate that they're making me do this, because that scene in the cage was life, but learn some grammar, writers! If you would have asked me, I would have said yes, is not a sound sentence structure! If you had asked me... I mean, come on! Did nobody actually take English in school?

[lemotomato]

I hate that they're making me do this, because that scene in the cage was life, but learn some grammar, writers! If you would have asked me, I would have said yes, is not a sound sentence structure! If you had asked me... I mean, come on! Did nobody actually take English in school?

I think they were going for parallel structure there. Not grammatically correct, but it kind of sounds better?

 

I really liked the line, if only because it reminded me of a scene from Alias, when two characters were on comms as one was about to die:

"I wish there were more time. I would've asked you out"

"I would've said yes."

[nksarmi]

I'm not really bitter about this, but I don't know why they didn't start writing Laurel like this a long, long time ago.  She is finally believable as his friend and partner.  She looked as happy for Oliver and Felicity at the proposal as Diggle and Thea did.  Why couldn't we have had this as early as season two?

 

I mean, if Laurel and Oliver never hook up in season one, I think they could have transitioned them into the friend zone years ago. It might have been awhile before they learned to trust each other, but with just a few minor changes to the story - I could have believed Laurel and Oliver as friends a long time ago.  And if they had done that, this whole BC story would have made so much more sense. 

 

As is, Laurel cracking the glass with the Canary Cry and tossing the police stick to Oliver so he could break it the rest of the way is their best partnership to date. 

 

Edited December 10, 2015 by nksarmi

[Chaser]

I had the same thought. I had little issues with the character (how about some concern for your friends Laurel?), but overall she was much better in this episode.

 

If this was the character they had written in S1, I could see her forgiving Oliver and them being in good terms. I could actually see myself being a fan.

 

As it is, too little too late.

[Traveller]

I am sorry to say this but that tossing the stick part took me completely out of the scene. I don't know if the person was Katie Cassidy or her stunt double but she threw the stick as if it was weighing a ton. And then Amell catches the stick as if its a twig and smashes the glass. That sequence looked bad.

[bijoux]

I had the same thought. I had little issues with the character (how about some concern for your friends Laurel?), but overall she was much better in this episode.

 

If this was the character they had written in S1, I could see her forgiving Oliver and them being in good terms. I could actually see myself being a fan.

Whoa. Let's not get carried away here.

 

Honestly, I think the way I could have liked Laurel best is if she was an anti-heroine.

[nksarmi]

I would have liked Laurel best - and yes, even could have been a fan - if they told us that she took up martial arts training after Sara and Oliver died (presumably) on the Gambit as a way of dealing with her anger and pain.  Kind of like they are showing me that Trish on Jessica Jones has put serious effort into physical training (even if she isn't going around kicking anyone's butt yet).

 

Then they should have never, ever had Laurel and Oliver sleep together in present day.  The best way for me to believe that Laurel forgave Oliver and they could be friends is if they showed me in season one that she was completely and utterly over him.  Then he could have realized all on his own that he didn't love her - he just loved the idea of returning to his former life and when he told Tommy to fight for Laurel - he too was shown as being completely over Laurel.

 

Then in season two, they could have built a friendship around grieving over Tommy, Sara's return, etc.... and most importantly, Laurel should have figured out that Oliver was Arrow on her own (much like we all thought Quentin knew and just wasn't saying).  Also, no matter what pain Laurel was going through in season two - they should have never had her be anything but so very happy when Sara returned.  Or if they wanted to have her be angry at first - that's fine as long as she was drunk and she later apologized and they had a great talk it out sister development.  Yes, I know this is Arrow/Oliver's show - I'm just saying what I would have needed to get through the season two plot line and still like Laurel on the other side.

 

Give Laurel a martial arts background, no emotional hang ups over Oliver, and a true sisterly bond with Sara and I could have bought into a lot of what they gave us in season three regarding her path to becoming BC.  The problem is they set her up to fail from almost the word go - but I could have liked her if they had done it right.

[Happy Harpy]

The problem is they set her up to fail from almost the word go - but I could have liked her if they had done it right.

I actually agree on this. My main problem until mid-season one was Laurel/Oliver, not Laurel herself. I think that if the writers hadn't been so hell-bent on Laurel/Oliver and on using Laurel/Tommy as an obstacle instead of a new development and a bona fide true love, she might have found an organic place on the show. When they realized there was an issue, it was imo too late and the show had grown without her.

 

[Sakura12]

They could've, should've but didn't with Laurel. She may be better but she's still just there and it would not make a difference if they erased her from the scenes. Half the time I think most of the writers forget about her and put her in as afterthought. Even her Canary cry is mostly useless. It's like they don't care and are just keeping her because some of the comics say Black Canary is supposed to be with Green Arrow. When that is not the case in most of the comics, including the newest version which has now added a blonde ninja dressed in white.  ;) 

 

Yes, we can blame the writing but I still think it's the actor/actress that is responsible for bringing a character to life. KC can barely muster up more than one facial expression or stance. Then when she's not the focus of the shot she looks like a powered down robot. That's not a natural. Don't even get me started on some of her line readings. All actors have a terrible line reading or two but her's mostly come off sounding bitchy or entitled or awkward. And none of those are supposed to be how we heard the lines she said. They were supposed to sound warm or caring or funny. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by Sakura12

[nksarmi]

I personally like Laurel in season one up until she slept with Oliver.  So I'm not 100% sure KC is incapable.  And in season two, I actually thought she acted exactly how she was supposed to be acting - I just didn't like the story.  This last episode reminded me that Laurel can be likable - which is why it's a shame they didn't set her up right from the start.  I mean even if I didn't remember or know BC's name was Dinal Laurel Lance - they knew who she was going to be.  I will never understand why they didn't give her a better backstory.  And while I don't think KC and SA have any real chemistry - they are only good when they are acting like friends - who the hell thought their backstory would work for anyone?!?!!?  I can say with 100% certainty that no matter how much chemistry SA and EBR have - I would not have shipped Laurel and Oliver if she had been cast as Laurel instead with the exact same story.  I just don't get it - don't these people test pilots????

Oh and looking up Black Canary - apparently the character debuted in a Flash comic?  They should have just sent Laurel to Flash for awhile, let her become a meta human, and then brought her back to Arrow in season three as a meta BC.  I wonder sometimes how often Arrow has suffered from trying to keep "grounded" and not just going "all in" on the superhero / comics concept.  I think season four has improved with a villain who uses magic.

[dtissagirl]

Oh and looking up Black Canary - apparently the character debuted in a Flash comic?  They should have just sent Laurel to Flash for awhile, let her become a meta human, and then brought her back to Arrow in season three as a meta BC.

 

This is completely unrealistic in terms of how Hollywood does things. An actor that was hired as regular + second billed in one show is not gonna be transferred to another show -- in a MUCH lower billing just like that. It means getting paid a whole lot less. It doesn't matter that it's the same studio and the same production company. KC's agents and managers would have thrown the entire book at them. Because sending KC off to The Flash is a demotion. And a salary reduction.

 

The way this works is if she had a recurring contract, and then was offered A REGULAR contract in another show. There's a good example in what they did on The Vampire Diaries and The Originals -- the whole bunch of  actors in TO recurred on TVD first, and were offered MORE MONIES to go to their own show.

 

Or if they give her a raise -- meaning she gets first billing and a salary bump on The Flash. Which is the moment when we start LOLing.

Edited December 11, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Sakura12]

Nobody needs Laurel, she adds nothing to any of the shows. 

 

And now even if she gets the meta Canary Cry what will make it different? She just wouldn't be wearing the bark collar. It's not the like Black Bolt from the Inhumans that can't speak without dismantling a city. Laurel would not have to act any differently.