S04.E01 Smoke

[Bannon]

26 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Chuck never expressed any offense at finding out Jimmy received a law degree.  He reacted with surprise and, at least outwardly said he was proud of him (after being asked if he was by Jimmy).  

He encouraged Jimmy in his public defender work and elder law practice  and helped him with his wills.  Now, I am sure he wasn't all that comfortable with Jimmy being a lawyer (as he would be uncomfortable with anyone with Jimmy's shady history and character being one).  But, he only sought to prevent Jimmy from working for HHM or being associated with it through the McGill name (which was over the top on Chuck's part).  The fact is HHM would normally never hire a guy with no experience and a degree from the University of American Samoa (Go, Land Crabs!).   

We remember Chuck's reaction to Jimmy having a law degree differently, and I will have to back to the episode to check my memory. In my memory, Chuck does not overtly express offense, but his displeasure at the news is obvious.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

6 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

After Jimmy's reaction to Howard, I think Kim's chances of surviving the season and the series are much better than I thought.  I think she dumps the cold hearted bastard soon, which would mean they wouldn't necessarily need to kill her off.

But what of Howard's chances? He seems pretty despondent. 

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Hmmm. Was Hamlin trying to get Jimmy to take the blame? If so, excellent crocodile tears!

No, I think he felt responsible for Chuck's death. I think he might have wanted Jimmy to tell him that it wasn't all his fault, that Chuck had issues, but he really felt guilty and needed to tell someone. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

On some level, Jimmy already knew that when Howard was rattling off the obituary that went on and on in grandiose terms about Chuck's work and reputation but never mentioned that he had a brother at all

Jimmy had put down the phone way before that part of the obituary but Howard did mention that Chuck was survived by his brother James McGill who followed in his footsteps as a lawyer,  or words to that effect. Howard did not erase Jimmy from Chuck's life.

[AndyAxel]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jimmy made a life a running cons.  Chuck ran a con to catch a con artist, which is usually considered cool and heroic in most fiction.  

Yet the noble Chuck McGill can't bring himself to tell Jimmy that their mother's dying words were for Jimmy. He took that to his grave, effectively destroying himself in his efforts to destroy his brother. Tragic, yes. But whatever sympathies I find for Chuck are tempered by having insights into his temperament and motivations. He's passive aggressive, self-centered, and not particularly self-aware. Of course, it doesn't help that his brother's a high-functioning sociopath... that'd probably drive anybody crazy after a while.

I don't know that we'll ever find out more details about the stalemate between Howard and Chuck, but there are certainly elements of extortion ("give me my way or I'll bankrupt the firm that you and your father built") in their relationship. I wouldn't attribute that sort of behavior to a nice guy.

[nodorothyparker]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

31 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Chuck never expressed any offense at finding out Jimmy received a law degree.  He reacted with surprise and, at least outwardly said he was proud of him (after being asked if he was by Jimmy).  

He encouraged Jimmy in his public defender work and elder law practice  and helped him with his wills.  Now, I am sure he wasn't all that comfortable with Jimmy being a lawyer (as he would be uncomfortable with anyone with Jimmy's shady history and character being one).  But, he only sought to prevent Jimmy from working for HHM or being associated with it through the McGill name (which was over the top on Chuck's part).  The fact is HHM would normally never hire a guy with no experience and a degree from the University of American Samoa (Go, Land Crabs!).   

We remember Chuck's reaction to Jimmy having a law degree differently, and I will have to back to the episode to check my memory. In my memory, Chuck does not overtly express offense, but his displeasure at the news is obvious.

I had to go back and look as the original reaction is in season 1's Rico.  There's a lot of laughter and acting completely stunned because Chuck obviously is.  Jimmy has to ask if he's proud of him, and what can Chuck really say at that point except that of course he is?  It's not a portrayal of a man who's truly happy or proud but of someone who's faking it the best he can right up until the moment Jimmy asks about joining HHM as a lawyer.  Then it's all about "well, it's not just up to me" and he'll have to talk to Howard and the other partners and you understand, right Jimmy?

I can buy at that point that Chuck figured if that he couldn't do anything about Jimmy having a law degree, the best thing he could do was encourage him to do the unglamorous grunt work where he was at least unlikely to really hurt anyone who truly mattered and hope that Jimmy wouldn't come across anything worth luring him down the Slippin' Jimmy path.  I can even speculate that if Jimmy hadn't stumbled into Sandpiper that they might have continued like that for years with Jimmy struggling and dutifully caring for Chuck while they both agreed that Howard was the big meanie who wouldn't let him get his foot in the door for something bigger.  Because that's what they were doing.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I wondered, if at the end of that long obit, there was something about Chuck "being survived by his brother, James McGill"?

Yes, it was there.

[ghoulina]

18 minutes ago, Bannon said:

We remember Chuck's reaction to Jimmy having a law degree differently, and I will have to back to the episode to check my memory. In my memory, Chuck does not overtly express offense, but his displeasure at the news is obvious.

I agree. He looked like he was sucking on a sour lemon, but SAID the right thing. 

[nodorothyparker]

2 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Jimmy had put down the phone way before that part of the obituary but Howard did mention that Chuck was survived by his brother James McGill who followed in his footsteps as a lawyer,  or words to that effect. Howard did not erase Jimmy from Chuck's life.

I've worked at a number of newspapers over the years and I've done my share of typing up obits.  Survivor information usually comes in the first couple of paragraphs after all the particulars and well before a long-winded recitation of when the deceased graduated high school or what mock debates he might have won or what his extracurriculars were.  The point is Jimmy never heard it because he ranked as less important than all of that.

[Bannon]

21 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Chuck was definitely manipulative.  It is hard to say if that started with his mental illness or was always the way he was.

Chuck was both wrong and right in engineering the circumstances.  Jimmy committed some very, serious crimes with his Mesa Verde fraud, and it caused Chuck to be horribly humiliated., and cause him and his firm to take a big hit to their reputations. 

 He figured out Jimmy's crime to the last detail, and was about to get proof when Jimmy bribed the copy shop guy.  This had to be extremely frustrating for Chuck.  Once, again, his no good brother, Slippin' Jimmy harmed the McGill family and was getting away with it.  

It was pretty low of Chuck to use his illness to get a confession out of Jimmy, but Jimmy had already gotten into the gutter and Chuck didn't have many other options to get a confession.  

It was also low for him to use the tape to lure Jimmy into committing a felony, but again Jimmy cause the situation and Chuck was suffering from mental illness.  

Chuck was unhinged with the "though the heavens fall" talk, but along with having a personal grudge for the humiliation Jimmy caused him, I think he truly believed that Jimmy being a lawyer was a menace to the community (and Breaking Bad proves him 100% right).  

Jimmy made a life a running cons.  Chuck ran a con to catch a con artist, which is usually considered cool and heroic in most fiction.  

With regard to ethics, Chuck was about as rank a hypocrite imaginable. It was unethical for Chuck to not reveal what he thought was a physical intolerance to electricity to HHM's insurer. It was unethical for him to store vital client documents in a building that is not up to code, and is a fire hazard. It was unethical for him to represent himself to Mesa Verde as being fully capable of representing them, without disclosing that being close to electrical currents has in the past rendered him nonfunctional for extended periods.

Chuck complaining about Jimmy's ethics is like a gorilla criticizing a chimp for not having opposable thumbs.

[Pike Ludwell]

2 hours ago, AndyAxel said:

Jimmy bought a bottle as a celebration for the settlement / payout after he ran that long con involving Irene and her friends at Sandpiper.

Zafiro Anejo was also the brand that "Giselle" and "Viktor" scammed the investment guy into buying at $50 a shot.
 

Sort of a running thing ... I wonder if it's just a coincidence that that's what Gus gives Eladio as that extra special gift in BB, or if that gift is a suggestion from Saul to Gus. By the way, probably not the best time to bring out a bottle of tequila worth probably thousands of dollars, when Jimmy is in a prolonged catatonic state.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Pat Hoolihan

[wendyg]

Dev F: I think the chronology may be the one place the writers went a little overboard. If Chuck was this genius - college at 14, top in everything at Georgetown Law, it raises a larger question: why did he pick Albuquerque to settle into law practice? With all those credits, he could have gone anywhere. And we know he was ambitious. Why wouldn't he have been angling at SCOTUS or some other top job?

[Bryce Lynch]

39 minutes ago, AndyAxel said:

Yet the noble Chuck McGill can't bring himself to tell Jimmy that their mother's dying words were for Jimmy. He took that to his grave, effectively destroying himself in his efforts to destroy his brother. Tragic, yes. But whatever sympathies I find for Chuck are tempered by having insights into his temperament and motivations. He's passive aggressive, self-centered, and not particularly self-aware. Of course, it doesn't help that his brother's a high-functioning sociopath... that'd probably drive anybody crazy after a while.

I don't know that we'll ever find out more details about the stalemate between Howard and Chuck, but there are certainly elements of extortion ("give me my way or I'll bankrupt the firm that you and your father built") in their relationship. I wouldn't attribute that sort of behavior to a nice guy.

I think Chuck's decision not to tell Jimmy his mother's dying words was half selfish and half noble.  He didn't want to give Jimmy the satisfaction of knowing "Mom loved him best" but he also didn't want to burden Jimmy with the guilt over not being at his mother's deathbed as she cried out for him, because he was out getting a sandwich.  That is one of the things I love about BCS and BB, characters often have mixed or unclear motives.

It reminds me (on a much  lower stakes scale) of Walt's decision to let Jane die.  I always imagine Walt thinks something like, "Oh, I have to save her!  But, if I do, she will probably drag Jessie down to an OD death...and that junkie skank is going to keep blackmailing me....oops she's dead.  Too late."

Speaking of Jane, I like to think that the coroner's van took Chuck to IGH, where they revived he nearly lifeless body and turned him into a grouchy, disturbed super hero...just like they did for Jane. :)

I wonder how passive aggressive Chuck was before his illness?  He seemed to be beloved by his colleagues and staff (though they might have been kissing up a bit) and founded two charities, according to his obituary.  

[Penman61]

6 minutes ago, wendyg said:

Dev F: I think the chronology may be the one place the writers went a little overboard. If Chuck was this genius - college at 14, top in everything at Georgetown Law, it raises a larger question: why did he pick Albuquerque to settle into law practice? With all those credits, he could have gone anywhere. And we know he was ambitious. Why wouldn't he have been angling at SCOTUS or some other top job?

And what did newly minted lawyer Chuck do between passing the bar and starting up HHM?  I don't recall if we have a definite age on Chuck, but he's got to be pushing 60 when he dies, and didn't Howard say he was at HHM for 19 years?  

So, professionally, what did Chuck do between ages ~25 and ~40?  I might have missed that in Howard's reading of the obit.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Penman61

[Bryce Lynch]

33 minutes ago, Bannon said:

With regard to ethics, Chuck was about as rank a hypocrite imaginable. It was unethical for Chuck to not reveal what he thought was a physical intolerance to electricity to HHM's insurer. It was unethical for him to store vital client documents in a building that is not up to code, and is a fire hazard. It was unethical for him to represent himself to Mesa Verde as being fully capable of representing them, without disclosing that being close to electrical currents has in the past rendered him nonfunctional for extended periods.

Chuck complaining about Jimmy's ethics is like a gorilla criticizing a chimp for not having opposable thumbs.

I agree that Chuck probably should have disclosed his condition.  Then again, do most professionals give all their medical records and secrets to all their clients?  How many alcoholic lawyers disclose that sort of thing?  His health issues were borderline, IMO.  He was wrongly convinced that they did not interfere with his work.  Howard probably should have stepped in on that.  Then again, if his no good, sun roof defecating, criminal brother didn't commit multiple felonies, in an elaborate scheme, to defraud him and Mesa Verde, the filing would have gone through, despite his health issues.

If Jimmy is a Chimp with a Machine gun, ethically.  Chuck is a squirrel monkey with a bb gun. :)

[ItCouldBeWorse]

14 hours ago, Dev F said:

I did appreciate that the writers attempted to massage the chronology a bit, so that Chuck and Jimmy are a little closer in age than previously implied. Chuck mentioned that he was away at college when his parents put Jimmy to work at the store at about age nine, suggesting that he's at least a decade older than his brother. But now we learn that Chuck was a prodigy who graduated from high school at fourteen, so the age difference doesn't have to be that pronounced.

Yes, but the practical details of Chuck starting college (at the University of Pennsylvania) at age 14 or perhaps 15 bothered me. In real life, any university would have required Chuck to be accompanied by a parent or guardian who would live with him off-campus.  The administration wouldn't want to be responsible for a young kid living on his own in a dorm. We know he wasn't accompanied by a parent, and it's possible he boarded with another family, but it would have been far more logical for him to have attended the University of Chicago, another prestigious institution, and to have lived at home. Of course, that would have meant he would have been home for Jimmy's early teen years and it would have changed their relationship. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[ShadowFacts]

24 minutes ago, Bannon said:

With regard to ethics, Chuck was about as rank a hypocrite imaginable. It was unethical for Chuck to not reveal what he thought was a physical intolerance to electricity to HHM's insurer. It was unethical for him to store vital client documents in a building that is not up to code, and is a fire hazard. It was unethical for him to represent himself to Mesa Verde as being fully capable of representing them, without disclosing that being close to electrical currents has in the past rendered him nonfunctional for extended periods.

Chuck complaining about Jimmy's ethics is like a gorilla criticizing a chimp for not having opposable thumbs.

Sure enough, they were both unethical.  I think it's safe to say that each contributed to the other's downfall, and each added a huge dose of self-destruction.  Possibly the most unethical thing Chuck did was unsafe storage of documents at his home (at least up until setting Jimmy up to break in).  Even though he had a mental health problem, we weren't shown that it affected his work.  So yeah, he may have dodged some reporting requirements that I am not up to snuff about, but he wasn't actively working at his most disabled times, and HHM was pretty complicit.  From what we know, his condition didn't hurt clients because we know he was not responsible for the Mesa Verde snafu.  It only appeared that way thanks to the not only unethical, but criminal, actions of Jimmy.  Who got away with it because if it had been proven he would have probably been permanently barred from practicing.  Rightly.

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree that Chuck probably should have disclosed his condition.  Then again, do most professionals give all their medical records and secrets to all their clients?  How many alcoholic lawyers disclose that sort of thing?  His health issues were borderline, IMO.  He was wrongly convinced that they did not interfere with his work.  Howard probably should have stepped in on that.  Then again, if his no good, sun roof defecating, criminal brother didn't commit multiple felonies, in an elaborate scheme, to defraud him and Mesa Verde, the filing would have gone through, despite his health issues.

If Jimmy is a Chimp with a Machine gun, ethically.  Chuck is a squirrel monkey with a bb gun. :)

If you are a lawyer whose medical condition has rendered you nonfunctional for extended periods, you have an obligation to disclose that to clients who are considering not just hiring your firm, but you, for your particular expertise, especially in the context of regulatory hearings.

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

And what did newly minted lawyer Chuck do between passing the bar and starting up HHM?  I don't recall if we have a definite age on Chuck, but he's got to be pushing 60 when he dies, and didn't Howard say he was at HHM for 19 years?  

So, professionally, what did Chuck do between ages ~25 and ~40?  I might have missed that in Howard's reading of the obit.

Was Chuck there only 19 years or was that the time Howard and Chuck worked together there.  Didn't Chuck mention helping Howard study for the bar exam, last season?  

I think Chuck is probably more like early 50s.  Jimmy is about 42, according to the BB Wikia and Chuck seems no more than 10 years older when he reads to young Jimmy in "Lantern".    

[100Proof]

18 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

So, professionally, what did Chuck do between ages ~25 and ~40?  I might have missed that in Howard's reading of the obit.

 

He was one of the guitar players in Spinal Tap.

Edited August 7, 2018 by 100Proof

[AndyAxel]

13 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I wonder how passive aggressive Chuck was before his illness?  He seemed to be beloved by his colleagues and staff (though they might have been kissing up a bit) and founded two charities, according to his obituary.  

The dinner with Jimmy & Rebecca sheds at least a little insight on that. If he had his way, Rebecca wouldn't have been allowed to form her own opinion of Jimmy, and he was stage-managing everything ("I'll give you the Carol Burnett signal") as he had convinced himself already how the night was going to go rather than letting things play out. Instead, she's charmed by him and ends up cracking lawyer jokes at Chuck after Jimmy left.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Was Chuck there only 19 years or was that the time Howard and Chuck worked together there.  Didn't Chuck mention helping Howard study for the bar exam, last season?  

I think Chuck is probably more like early 50s.  Jimmy is about 42, according to the BB Wikia and Chuck seems no more than 10 years older when he reads to young Jimmy in "Lantern".    

If Jimmy was 9 when Chuck left for college, and Chuck was 14 or 15, then there's no more than 6 years between them.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Sure enough, they were both unethical.  I think it's safe to say that each contributed to the other's downfall, and each added a huge dose of self-destruction.  Possibly the most unethical thing Chuck did was unsafe storage of documents at his home (at least up until setting Jimmy up to break in).  Even though he had a mental health problem, we weren't shown that it affected his work.  So yeah, he may have dodged some reporting requirements that I am not up to snuff about, but he wasn't actively working at his most disabled times, and HHM was pretty complicit.  From what we know, his condition didn't hurt clients because we know he was not responsible for the Mesa Verde snafu.  It only appeared that way thanks to the not only unethical, but criminal, actions of Jimmy.  Who got away with it because if it had been proven he would have probably been permanently barred from practicing.  Rightly.

His recruitment of Mesa Verde away from Kim, back to HHM, without disclosing how his aversion to electricity had in the past rendered him non functional, was entirely unethical. If Jimmy had been in win at all costs mode by then, he could have buried Chuck right there, without going through all the document alteration crimes.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, ItCouldBeWorse said:

If Jimmy was 9 when Chuck left for college, and Chuck was 14 or 15, then there's no more than 6 years between them.

Good point, so Chuck was only about 48.  In one episode, when he was rushed to the hospital the ER team said he was "late 50s" but that was probably just their estimate and he looked older from his mental illness and having bug up his but all his life.  

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

His recruitment of Mesa Verde away from Kim, back to HHM, without disclosing how his aversion to electricity had in the past rendered him non functional, was entirely unethical. If Jimmy had been in win at all costs mode by then, he could have buried Chuck right there, without going through all the document alteration crimes.

There is an argument that it was unethical.  You could also argue that he was perfectly capable of doing the job.  He was obviously an expert in the field and if Jimmy had not to quote one of the skaters, "felonied" him, MV would have gotten excellent work from him.  You could also argue that Jimmy could have wormed his way into HHM to get the documents and alter them, if they had been stored there.  

But at any rate, not disclosing a medical condition that may or may not be relevant and stealing and altering documents are not even in the same ball park of ethics violations.  

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Good point, so Chuck was only about 48.  In one episode, when he was rushed to the hospital the ER team said he was "late 50s" but that was probably just their estimate and he looked older from his mental illness and having bug up his but all his life.  

Or it's a minor continuity error, (assuming Jimmy is about 42.) The writers weren't envisioning the details of Chuck's obituary when they wrote the hospital scene last year. However, since Michael McKean is actually 70 and does not look to be in his 40's, you are likely correct.

[wendyg]

Chuck and Howard's father created HM, then Howard finished growing up and joined the firm to make it HHM. That chronology works.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Or it's a minor continuity error, (assuming Jimmy is about 42.) The writers weren't envisioning the details of Chuck's obituary when they wrote the hospital scene last year. However, since Michael McKean is actually 70 and does not look to be in his 40's, you are likely correct.

Well, a lot of characters look a lot older than they are supposed to be.  I'm talking to you Mike and Gus!  :)  It can be a bit distracting at times, but I try to ignore it.  

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, AndyAxel said:

Yet the noble Chuck McGill can't bring himself to tell Jimmy that their mother's dying words were for Jimmy. He took that to his grave, effectively destroying himself in his efforts to destroy his brother. Tragic, yes. But whatever sympathies I find for Chuck are tempered by having insights into his temperament and motivations. He's passive aggressive, self-centered, and not particularly self-aware. Of course, it doesn't help that his brother's a high-functioning sociopath... that'd probably drive anybody crazy after a while.

I don't know that we'll ever find out more details about the stalemate between Howard and Chuck, but there are certainly elements of extortion ("give me my way or I'll bankrupt the firm that you and your father built") in their relationship. I wouldn't attribute that sort of behavior to a nice guy.

Jimmy has flaws wider than the Rio Grande, but he's definitely not a sociopath of any kind. A sociopath doesn't feel so bad about his Sandpiper client being alienated from her friends that goes through an elaborate ruse  to expose himself, at great financial cost, so she can be on good terms with them again. 

[100Proof]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Jimmy has flaws wider than the Rio Grande, but he's definitely not a sociopath of any kind. A sociopath doesn't feel so bad about his Sandpiper client being alienated from her friends that goes through an elaborate ruse  to expose himself, at great financial cost, so she can be on good terms with them again. 

The archetypal 'whore with a heart of gold'. lol

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Good point, so Chuck was only about 48.  In one episode, when he was rushed to the hospital the ER team said he was "late 50s" but that was probably just their estimate and he looked older from his mental illness and having bug up his but all his life.  

There is an argument that it was unethical.  You could also argue that he was perfectly capable of doing the job.  He was obviously an expert in the field and if Jimmy had not to quote one of the skaters, "felonied" him, MV would have gotten excellent work from him.  You could also argue that Jimmy could have wormed his way into HHM to get the documents and alter them, if they had been stored there.  

But at any rate, not disclosing a medical condition that may or may not be relevant and stealing and altering documents are not even in the same ball park of ethics violations.  

When the medical condition has in the relatively recent past rendered you completely nonfunctional, without warning, and you are telling the client that he should retain you for your particular expertise in the setting of time critical regulatory hearings, it really is indisputable that Chuck had an ethical obligation to disclose the condition to Mesa Verde. None of this excuses Jimmy's actions, but Jimmy really could have buried Chuck then and there, without any unlawful or unethical behavior from Jimmy.

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Jimmy has flaws wider than the Rio Grande, but he's definitely not a sociopath of any kind. A sociopath doesn't feel so bad about his Sandpiper client being alienated from her friends that goes through an elaborate ruse  to expose himself, at great financial cost, so she can be on good terms with them again. 

Yeah, he does seem to have a conscience and his ruse to fix what he did to Irene was a great example.  He also tried to warn the Kettlemans and plead for the lives of the skater twins, when doing so could have jeopardized his own.  That is why I had a little trouble buying his sudden "That's your cross to bear." to Howard.   He seems to feel pleasure, rather than guilt about what he did to Chuck with the insurance agent.  Maybe he is just so bitter against Chuck that his conscience is seared with a hot iron (as the Bible puts it) when it comes to him. 

BTW, did anyone else think Jimmy was trying to kill the goldfish by overfeeding it at the end of the episode?  Earlier he was very careful to follow the vet's warning, by putting a small pinch of food in the tank.  At the end, he shook a bunch of flakes from the container.  

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When the medical condition has in the relatively recent past rendered you completely nonfunctional, without warning, and you are telling the client that he should retain you for your particular expertise in the setting of time critical regulatory hearings, it really is indisputable that Chuck had an ethical obligation to disclose the condition to Mesa Verde. None of this excuses Jimmy's actions, but Jimmy really could have buried Chuck then and there, without any unlawful or unethical behavior from Jimmy.

Meh. HHM had a large staff of qualified lawyers to pick up for Chuck if he were incapacitated.  His main selling point, while praising Kim, in the meeting with MV was that HHM was a large firm with more resources than Kim.  

[Delete]

I enjoy how the writers have taken a character like Jimmy McGill, and show how he progresses from 'good' to 'bad.'  It's so subtle, but brilliant. I'm sad to see Michael McKeon go because his acting last season was exceptional, but it was time for Saul to show up, and Saul couldn't fully be Saul until Chuck left. Next up will be Kim. The face she made after the exchange between Jimmy and Howard was very much of a woman who realizes the man she loves isn't who she thought him to be. 

Good to see Mike back at it. The beauty of Mike is that he is a man of little words, but you can almost hear his mind working...figuring it all out.  All the actors must be commended for not over-acting. In fact, many of the scenes flow beautifully that one almost feels like one is right there as a invisible bystander seeing their lives play out.

The same can be said for Gus, and Nacho. Brilliant characters who often don't need to speak to create tension, and drama. 

Looking forward to next week. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, he does seem to have a conscience and his ruse to fix what he did to Irene was a great example.  He also tried to warn the Kettlemans and plead for the lives of the skater twins, when doing so could have jeopardized his own.  That is why I had a little trouble buying his sudden "That's your cross to bear." to Howard.   He seems to feel pleasure, rather than guilt about what he did to Chuck with the insurance agent.  Maybe he is just so bitter against Chuck that his conscience is seared with a hot iron (as the Bible puts it) when it comes to him. 

BTW, did anyone else think Jimmy was trying to kill the goldfish by overfeeding it at the end of the episode?  Earlier he was very careful to follow the vet's warning, by putting a small pinch of food in the tank.  At the end, he shook a bunch of flakes from the container.  

Oh, Jimmy is now nearly as angry as Chuck was, and extreme anger changes people. Saul is a Jimmy, possessed of towering rage.

[Dev F]

11 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

If Jimmy was 9 when Chuck left for college, and Chuck was 14 or 15, then there's no more than 6 years between them.

It's still not quite that clear cut. Chuck tells Kim that he was away at college when his parents first put Jimmy to work at the store, and later in his courtroom breakdown he rants about Jimmy stealing from the cash register "ever since he was nine." So Jimmy would've been nine at some point during his brother's college years, which conceivably widens their age gap by another three years or so.

Though to me it feels less like the writers are trying to nail down a specific timeline than that they're trying to sidestep any inconsistencies by making the chronology less definitive.

[ShadowFacts]

8 minutes ago, Bannon said:

His recruitment of Mesa Verde away from Kim, back to HHM, without disclosing how his aversion to electricity had in the past rendered him non functional, was entirely unethical. If Jimmy had been in win at all costs mode by then, he could have buried Chuck right there, without going through all the document alteration crimes.

Generally what are the disclosure obligations of a professional to a client, regarding their health?  How much detail, what time frames, etc.?  Is it a vague obligation, are there specific definitions of impairment, is there a need for proof of "recovery", etc.?  I don't know, but Chuck didn't disclose and HHM certainly didn't, and Jimmy up to that point didn't have any incentive to broadcast that beyond anyone who already knew.  He did not have to go through document crimes, he chose to.  They were playing tit for tat in a childish way that spiraled terribly.  Neither one of them had to do any of it.  As it stands one is dead and the other has a very dismal future in Omaha, and I am kind of more interested in how this all plays out with Kim and also Howard.  Two people who do not yet have hardened hearts.  Not only does Howard feel responsible, Kim must too, inasmuch as she played a part in ending Chuck's career and knows what Jimmy did. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Barbara Please said:

I enjoy how the writers have taken a character like Jimmy McGill, and show how he progresses from 'good' to 'bad.'  It's so subtle, but brilliant. I'm sad to see Michael McKeon go because his acting last season was exceptional, but it was time for Saul to show up, and Saul couldn't fully be Saul until Chuck left. Next up will be Kim. The face she made after the exchange between Jimmy and Howard was very much of a woman who realizes the man she loves isn't who she thought him to be. 

Good to see Mike back at it. The beauty of Mike is that he is a man of little words, but you can almost hear his mind working...figuring it all out.  All the actors must be commended for not over-acting. In fact, many of the scenes flow beautifully that one almost feels like one is right there as a invisible bystander seeing their lives play out.

The same can be said for Gus, and Nacho. Brilliant characters who often don't need to speak to create tension, and drama. 

Looking forward to next week. 

I really think Kim is going get a partnership offer from HHM  and that will be an offer she can't refuse. That'll send Jimmy into a black hole he'll never escape. If the writers could plausibly write a scenario where Kim and Howard become lovers, and Jimmy discovers it , it might be the greatest destruction of character who wasn't overtly killed off, in t.v. history. I can't envision how such a thing could be plausibly written, however.

[benteen]

5 minutes ago, Dev F said:

It's still not quite that clear cut. Chuck tells Kim that he was away at college when his parents first put Jimmy to work at the store, and later in his courtroom breakdown he rants about Jimmy stealing from the cash register "ever since he was nine." So Jimmy would've been nine at some point during his brother's college years, which conceivably widens their age gap by another three years or so.

Though to me it feels less like the writers are trying to nail down a specific timeline than that they're trying to sidestep any inconsistencies by making the chronology less definitive.

Yeah, the age thing confused me.  If Chuck had spent 23 years practicing law in New Mexico, based on what else was said, that would make him what?  45 years old?

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, benteen said:

Yeah, the age thing confused me.  If Chuck had spent 23 years practicing law in New Mexico, based on what else was said, that would make him what?  45 years old?

Would his years clerking for judges be during law school or after?

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Generally what are the disclosure obligations of a professional to a client, regarding their health?  How much detail, what time frames, etc.?  Is it a vague obligation, are there specific definitions of impairment, is there a need for proof of "recovery", etc.?  I don't know, but Chuck didn't disclose and HHM certainly didn't, and Jimmy up to that point didn't have any incentive to broadcast that beyond anyone who already knew.  He did not have to go through document crimes, he chose to.  They were playing tit for tat in a childish way that spiraled terribly.  Neither one of them had to do any of it.  As it stands one is dead and the other has a very dismal future in Omaha, and I am kind of more interested in how this all plays out with Kim and also Howard.  Two people who do not yet have hardened hearts.  Not only does Howard feel responsible, Kim must too, inasmuch as she played a part in ending Chuck's career and knows what Jimmy did. 

When you are still lining your suit coat with foil, because in the recent past your aversion to electricity has caused you to be suddenly hospitalized for days, and you are telling your potential client to hire you, because you'll be great in upcoming regulatory hearings, yes, you have an obligation to disclose that. Just like you would if you had MS, and in the relatively recent past it had rendered you unable to work.

Again, none of this excuses Jimmy's behavior, but if Jimmy had been absolutely ruthless in defending Kim from having Mesa Verde taken from her (or if Kim had been ruthless in defending her business, for that matter), a dime could have been dropped on Chuck and HHM right then, without any ethical roadblocks. In fact, Kim and Jimmy were probably technically in violation by not reporting Chuck. It's a minor hole plot that the Bar association hearing did not result in an investigation into Chuck and HHM, although Chuck's quick exit from HHM might have rendered it moot,  given Chuck's prestige in the industry.

Jimmy had legal methods of getting Mesa Verde back to Kim, but he didn't want to destroy Chuck at that time. He just wanted Chuck to be seen as having made an error. So, ironically enough, it was the regard he still had for Chuck which motivated him to commit criminal acts, which angered Chuck so much that he went to great lengths to establish that Jimmy had committed crimes, in an effort to destroy Jimmy, which in turn motivated Jimmy to extinguish any regard for Chuck, and seek to destroy him. 

Great, great, great, writing. Really great.

26 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Would his years clerking for judges be during law school or after?

After

33 minutes ago, benteen said:

Yeah, the age thing confused me.  If Chuck had spent 23 years practicing law in New Mexico, based on what else was said, that would make him what?  45 years old?

He goes to college at 14 or 15, gets out of law school at 22 or 23, clerks for the appellate court for a few years, and then starts private practice. Who knows? Maybe Howard's obit left out a stint at another firm. In my mind, Chuck's about 60.

[AndyAxel]

59 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Jimmy has flaws wider than the Rio Grande, but he's definitely not a sociopath of any kind. A sociopath doesn't feel so bad about his Sandpiper client being alienated from her friends that goes through an elaborate ruse  to expose himself, at great financial cost, so she can be on good terms with them again. 

Of *any* kind? I'd offer that he's one in the making.

On a tangent to that, I'm really taken by the reminder of the constant jeopardy that he's in at the top of the episode. He got where he is, losing his practice and managing a Cinnabon in Omaha, through a series of decisions that led to that outcome.

(I also note that "Gene" is not in Nebraska by accident. That's Kim's home stomping grounds.)

[Snewtsie]

6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Where can I get the sweatshirt?

https://breakingbadstore.com/products/better-call-saul-university-of-american-samoa-law-school-logo-adult-heather-sweatshirt?ref=GGLBAD&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1JLGldLb3AIVB7vsCh3FegKTEAQYASABEgIWBfD_BwE

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, AndyAxel said:

Of *any* kind? I'd offer that he's one in the making.

On a tangent to that, I'm really taken by the reminder of the constant jeopardy that he's in at the top of the episode. He got where he is, losing his practice and managing a Cinnabon in Omaha, through a series of decisions that led to that outcome.

(I also note that "Gene" is not in Nebraska by accident. That's Kim's home stomping grounds.)

I don't think nonsociopaths develop into sociopaths. If you are capable of empathy, regret, and feelings of guilt at some point in your life, I don't think it ever is completely extinguished, even if you do awful things.

[AndyAxel]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

I don't think nonsociopaths develop into sociopaths. If you are capable of empathy, regret, and feelings of guilt at some point in your life, I don't think it ever is completely extinguished, even if you do awful things.

Maybe psychopath is more apt for Jimmy.

• Superficial charm and glibness
• Inflated sense of self-worth
• Constant need for stimulation
• Lying pathologically
• Conning others; being manipulative
• Lack of remorse or guilt
• Shallow emotions
• Callousness; lack of empathy
• Using others (a parasitic lifestyle)
• Poor control over behavior
• Behavioral problems early in life
• Being impulsive
• Being irresponsible
• Blaming others and refusing to accept responsibility
• Delinquency when young
• Criminal acts in several realms (criminal versatility)

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, AndyAxel said:

Of *any* kind? I'd offer that he's one in the making.

On a tangent to that, I'm really taken by the reminder of the constant jeopardy that he's in at the top of the episode. He got where he is, losing his practice and managing a Cinnabon in Omaha, through a series of decisions that led to that outcome.

(I also note that "Gene" is not in Nebraska by accident. That's Kim's home stomping grounds.)

The writers might have made Kim be from Kansas, near the Nebraska border, for a reason.  But, in BB, Saul did not choose Nebraska, Ed the disappearer chose it for him.  

When Ed took Saul's photo and loaded it into a Nebraska driver's license program, Saul asked, "What's in Nebraska" and Ed replied, "You, from now on."  

[MaryPatShelby]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

And what did newly minted lawyer Chuck do between passing the bar and starting up HHM?  I don't recall if we have a definite age on Chuck, but he's got to be pushing 60 when he dies, and didn't Howard say he was at HHM for 19 years?  

So, professionally, what did Chuck do between ages ~25 and ~40?  I might have missed that in Howard's reading of the obit.

The obituary mentioned a couple different jobs that I don't remember in detail - clerking for someone, and working in a federal court, I believe. 

[AndyAxel]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The writers might have made Kim be from Kansas, near the Nebraska border, for a reason.  But, in BB, Saul did not choose Nebraska, Ed the disappearer chose it for him.  

When Ed took Saul's photo and loaded it into a Nebraska driver's license program, Saul asked, "What's in Nebraska" and Ed replied, "You, from now on."  

Synchronicity.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, AndyAxel said:

Maybe psychopath is more apt for Jimmy.

• Superficial charm and glibness
• Inflated sense of self-worth
• Constant need for stimulation
• Lying pathologically
• Conning others; being manipulative
• Lack of remorse or guilt
• Shallow emotions
• Callousness; lack of empathy
• Using others (a parasitic lifestyle)
• Poor control over behavior
• Behavioral problems early in life
• Being impulsive
• Being irresponsible
• Blaming others and refusing to accept responsibility
• Delinquency when young
• Criminal acts in several realms (criminal versatility)

Jimmy is capable of both empathy and feelings of guilt. A person can do the most awful things imaginable, even multiple murders, without being a sociopath or psychopath.

[ShadowFacts]

35 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Again, none of this excuses Jimmy's behavior, but if Jimmy had been absolutely ruthless in defending Kim from having Mesa Verde taken from her (or if Kim had been ruthless in defending her business, for that matter), a dime could have been dropped on Chuck and HHM right then, without any ethical roadblocks. In fact, Kim and Jimmy were probably technically in violation by not reporting Chuck. It's a minor hole plot that the Bar association hearing did not result in an investigation into Chuck and HHM, although Chuck's quick exit from HHM might have rendered it moot,  given Chuck's prestige in the industry.

I think that's a major plot hole inasmuch as if HHM, Chuck himself and other lawyers who were aware had an obligation to disclose/report, then the bar examiners, having had a firsthand view of his infirmity, would be required to act.  As it was written, only the fact that Jimmy leaked the information to the malpractice insurer had any effect on Chuck's professional standing.  I think you have hit the nail on the head that Chuck's prestige protected him from a lot during the years of his illness. 

[AndyAxel]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Jimmy is capable of both empathy and feelings of guilt. A person can do the most awful things imaginable, even multiple murders, without being a sociopath or psychopath.

So he'll waste every opportunity that he had, alienate everyone close to him, wind up in isolation, will spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder, but hey. At least he doesn't hit all the clinical criteria in the DSM-V. <wink>

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think that's a major plot hole inasmuch as if HHM, Chuck himself and other lawyers who were aware had an obligation to disclose/report, then the bar examiners, having had a firsthand view of his infirmity, would be required to act.  As it was written, only the fact that Jimmy leaked the information to the malpractice insurer had any effect on Chuck's professional standing.  I think you have hit the nail on the head that Chuck's prestige protected him from a lot during the years of his illness. 

Well, that's what I mean. It is plausible that Chuck's prestige insulated him, and HHM, from consequences, especially since Chuck exited the firm shortly after his condition became known to the Bar Association.

6 minutes ago, AndyAxel said:

So he'll waste every opportunity that he had, alienate everyone close to him, wind up in isolation, will spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder, but hey. At least he doesn't hit all the clinical criteria in the DSM-V. <wink>

That's what makes him interesting. I hate fiction which have sociopaths/paychopaths as central characters, because people who are incapable of empathy, and feelings of regret and guilt, are for the most part very tedious. 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, he does seem to have a conscience and his ruse to fix what he did to Irene was a great example.  He also tried to warn the Kettlemans and plead for the lives of the skater twins, when doing so could have jeopardized his own.  That is why I had a little trouble buying his sudden "That's your cross to bear." to Howard.   He seems to feel pleasure, rather than guilt about what he did to Chuck with the insurance agent.  Maybe he is just so bitter against Chuck that his conscience is seared with a hot iron (as the Bible puts it) when it comes to him. 

BTW, did anyone else think Jimmy was trying to kill the goldfish by overfeeding it at the end of the episode?  Earlier he was very careful to follow the vet's warning, by putting a small pinch of food in the tank.  At the end, he shook a bunch of flakes from the container.  

Meh. HHM had a large staff of qualified lawyers to pick up for Chuck if he were incapacitated.  His main selling point, while praising Kim, in the meeting with MV was that HHM was a large firm with more resources than Kim.  

Again, I'd have to back and look to be sure, but I'm pretty sure that Chuck was telling HHM that they would benefit from his personal talents in regulatory hearings. He had an ethical duty to disclose his condition to Mesa Verde   I'm pretty sure.