All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[lmdreamer]

I just want it addressed somehow: a discussion or fight between Naomi and Cas, a meet and greet with Cage!Michael, something. As of the first episode of season 14 Sam had all but declared himself King of Hell so its not completely impossible.

[Ninamags]

On 10/15/2018 at 8:58 AM, hypnotoad said:

I like Benny and am not sure I understand Sam's reaction to him

 

On 10/15/2018 at 1:28 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Manufactured angst and conflict. That's the best explanation I could come up with.

Sam seemed to me that he was maybe jealous of Benny? I posited this in the Bitten thread along with a few other thoughts that since have been erased. I can't recall what they were now. Except that I also thought that Dean might have been upset at Sam and that he was spending time or that he had found someone which led him to believe that was the reason that Sam didn't look for him.  

[Kanner]

I have been doing a another re-watch and am now in the dreaded Season 8.  I should a modified re-watch in that I am only really watching the Dean scenes (don't judge me). It is amazing how better Sam comes off if I watch the show this way. lol If you had asked me before this re-watch I would have said my thoughts on Sam per season were 1 - liked, 2 - loved, 3 - loved, 4 - hated, 5 - disliked, 6 - meh, 7 - meh, 8 - hated, 9 - hated, 10 - present - liked.  In the re-watch I am seeing that Season 6 and 7 Sam is not so bad with some specific story line exceptions (Amy).  My Dean ratings per season were 1 - liked, 2 - loved, 3 - present - obsessed. Which haven't changed so far.

But here I am with 8 and even with fast forwarded the non-Dean scenes, Sam is a total ass. I have't even gotten to Citizen Fang yet (up next).  Part of that is his irrational reaction to Benny. The character of Benny was just fire when he was introduced and the chemistry between him and Dean was off the charts. (I miss Benny). Dean didn't help by not explaining Purgatory but once Sam said Benny was the same as Amy (The situations are not the same. She had just proven she was willing to kill humans.) and he equated Dean not mentioning a friend to Sam as the same as Sam not looking for Dean I knew he wasn't being rational. 

The other thing I realized is the recency bias I had toward Crowley.  I had totally forgotten how EVIL he is. Shame on me.

One of the other things that has popped out on re-watches is how the nature of the boys switches in regards to friends. Sam was all about having friends and Dean was no friends at any time.  But when you watch you see Dean making the connections with longer term characters and Sam not so much or only after Dean has invited these people in.  This is not say Sam has none but the majority of "long-term" friends have a greater connection with Dean.

[AwesomO4000]

17 hours ago, Kanner said:

In the re-watch I am seeing that Season 6 and 7 Sam is not so bad with some specific story line exceptions (Amy). 

I often think that Sam gets a bum rap when it comes to Amy. Sam did forgive Dean after all and even came to see that Dean had a point and empathized with Dean's situation for lying... which I thought was nice of Sam considering (in my opinion) Dean's excuse for lying was a bit on the lame side. Dean's excuse of wanting to see if Sam wasn't still shooting at imaginary things might've been a good one if so much time had not passed since then and since Dean was trusting Sam to go on hunts with him.*** So considering that Dean's excuse to Sam was "I only lied to you because you were nuts" - and I wasn't all that convinced Dean would've told Sam later myself, but that's me - I thought Sam was fairly considerate in letting that go, myself.

It wasn't painted that way for sure - with Sam getting the "you're being a bitch" beat-down - but that's what I thought it really was. And it fit season 7 Sam, because he was generally pretty forgiving during that time.

And my reason for saying Sam was being considerate isn't just due to Amy. It's because for Sam it hadn't been just about Amy. Sam was having problems knowing what was real and what wasn't. Dean offered to be Sam's stone number one to build on in that department... and then lied to his face, blurring that trust. Though Sam was a bit of a drama king about it,^^^ I did think that Sam had a good reason to be angry about that, myself, and thought that he was more then fair in giving in to Dean as a resolution.

The Amy situation in season 8 was something else altogether which seemed to ignore and/or dismiss so many things in season 7, and which I can't get into here, because talking about Carver and season 8 especially can only bring me into "Bitch vs Jerk" territory.

*** I wouldn't have if I were Dean. Sam was seeing imaginary people, including imaginary Deans. But if you're gonna let Sam back you up and have a gun, I'm not sure you can then pull the "but you were nuts" card. Well, I guess you can, but it's gonna sound lame, in my opinion. ::shrug:: Sam bought it though, so: good job?

^^^ For some reason Dean lying to Sam, seemingly not trusting him, or - as in this situation - both is a "thing" with Sam, even when Dean has some reason to do so. It pushes Sam's buttons, makes him bonkers, and he tends to over-react ("Hunted" and "Good God Y'All" are two other examples). So Sam's going off in a huff was fairly in character, and something Dean should have expected, because he knows Sam irrationally hates that shit. It's like Dean and someone doing something to his Baby. Dean is not going to take that well.

17 hours ago, Kanner said:

The character of Benny was just fire when he was introduced and the chemistry between him and Dean was off the charts.

I agree. For me, it was too bad that Benny got turned into something else, and ended up becoming more like a hooker vampire with a heart of gold plot contrivance than a complex character in his own right. Benny's main purpose seemed to be to cause conflict. It didn't matter that Sam's reactions to him made little sense... It was supposedly good "angst." I violently disagreed, but that's another subject I'll skip here.

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I often think that Sam gets a bum rap when it comes to Amy. Sam did forgive Dean after all and even came to see that Dean had a point and empathized with Dean's situation for lying... which I thought was nice of Sam considering (in my opinion) Dean's excuse for lying was a bit on the lame side. Dean's excuse of wanting to see if Sam wasn't still shooting at imaginary things might've been a good one if so much time had not passed since then and since Dean was trusting Sam to go on hunts with him.*** So considering that Dean's excuse to Sam was "I only lied to you because you were nuts" - and I wasn't all that convinced Dean would've told Sam later myself, but that's me - I thought Sam was fairly considerate in letting that go, myself.

It wasn't painted that way for sure - with Sam getting the "you're being a bitch" beat-down - but that's what I thought it really was. And it fit season 7 Sam, because he was generally pretty forgiving during that time.

And my reason for saying Sam was being considerate isn't just due to Amy. It's because for Sam it hadn't been just about Amy. Sam was having problems knowing what was real and what wasn't. Dean offered to be Sam's stone number one to build on in that department... and then lied to his face, blurring that trust. Though Sam was a bit of a drama king about it,^^^ I did think that Sam had a good reason to be angry about that, myself, and thought that he was more then fair in giving in to Dean as a resolution.

The Amy situation in season 8 was something else altogether which seemed to ignore and/or dismiss so many things in season 7, and which I can't get into here, because talking about Carver and season 8 especially can only bring me into "Bitch vs Jerk" territory.

*** I wouldn't have if I were Dean. Sam was seeing imaginary people, including imaginary Deans. But if you're gonna let Sam back you up and have a gun, I'm not sure you can then pull the "but you were nuts" card. Well, I guess you can, but it's gonna sound lame, in my opinion. ::shrug:: Sam bought it though, so: good job?

^^^ For some reason Dean lying to Sam, seemingly not trusting him, or - as in this situation - both is a "thing" with Sam, even when Dean has some reason to do so. It pushes Sam's buttons, makes him bonkers, and he tends to over-react ("Hunted" and "Good God Y'All" are two other examples). So Sam's going off in a huff was fairly in character, and something Dean should have expected, because he knows Sam irrationally hates that shit. It's like Dean and someone doing something to his Baby. Dean is not going to take that well.

I agree. For me, it was too bad that Benny got turned into something else, and ended up becoming more like a hooker vampire with a heart of gold plot contrivance than a complex character in his own right. Benny's main purpose seemed to be to cause conflict. It didn't matter that Sam's reactions to him made little sense... It was supposedly good "angst." I violently disagreed, but that's another subject I'll skip here.

The Kitsune who Sam knew for a few hours 13 years earlier and decided to let go because she promised that she suddenly didn't need to kill anymore(just when she happened to get caught?)  I mean Sam's basis in trusting her and letting her go was based on basically nothing other than he knew her for a day and kissed her when he was an adolescent many years before and she gave him a rather lame and extremely convenient sob story that suddenly she didn't need to do this anymore just when she gets caught.  She was literally actively killing people WHEN he found her, she had blood on her hands.

Sam was vindictive about that for two seasons so I didn't see any empathy or genuine admittance of understanding or forgiveness.  It was partially behind his killing of Dean's daughter, his own niece and partially behind his hatred of Benny.

From end of The Slice Girls, the 13th episode of Season 7, 10 episodes after Amy was killed and 7 episodes after Sam found out it:

"What did you say to me... when I was the one who choked? What did you say about Amy? "You kill the monster!""

Seriously, Dean had the gun drawn on her, so what if they were talking, she was 3 days old and hadn't actually hurt anyone yet so give her a chance, let him try to talk her out of it.  Unlike Amy who again literally had blood on her hands when Sam caught her.  They aren't really comparable but there is Sam comparing killing a young monster who hadn't actually hurt anyone yet(and was Dean's daughter and his own niece) and who Dean was literally holding a GUN at that moment which is entirely different from catching someone in the act, who has killed multiple times and then deciding to let them go.  

Sam's practically admitting to being trigger happy to get back at him for Amy, which doesn't sound forgiving, empathetic or understanding to me.  

And then Southern Comfort in Season 8, episode 6

"And what about my friend, Amy? She was what? 'Cause you sure as hell didn't have a problem ganking her."

Again comparing apples and oranges and again still holding killing Amy against Dean, well over a year later.  Dean knew Benny better than Sam knew Amy, they'd basically backed each other up for months, constant companions.  And Benny did prove himself trustworthy while topside. Amy, again, was actively killing when Sam caught her.  There was good reason to give Benny the benefit of the doubt and there was really no reason to give Amy the benefit of the doubt.

So for two seasons Sam harped on this on and off.

Dean's excuse for not telling Sam may have been lame but it wasn't his reason for killing Amy  He told Sam he understood that sometimes there are situations where you can't do it, so someone else has to, so he didn't actually blame Sam for that or act like it made him weak, which more than can be said for how Sam acted when Dean didn't immediately pull the trigger on his own daughter 6 episodes later and tried to partially blame it on Dean's head not being in the game.

It's less lame than Sam practically trying to frame Benny or drive him to killing just to prove Dean wrong, whether Sam wanted to admit it or not he was creating a self-fulfilling fantasy by pushing Benny into a corner and essentially expecting him to die rather than kill someone who was trying to harm him.  Or trying to say Dean "choked" when he literally has his gun pulled on a monster(which he had pulled on her precisely because he was PREPARED and knew not to be too trusting)

Edited April 11, 2019 by tessathereaper

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

The Kitsune who Sam knew for a few hours 13 years earlier and decided to let go because she promised that she suddenly didn't need to kill anymore(just when she happened to get caught?)  I mean Sam's basis in trusting her and letting her go was based on basically nothing other than he knew her for a day and kissed her when he was an adolescent many years before and she gave him a rather lame and extremely convenient sob story that suddenly she didn't need to do this anymore just when she gets caught.  She was literally actively killing people WHEN he found her, she had blood on her hands.

Sam was vindictive about that for two seasons so I didn't see any empathy or genuine admittance of understanding or forgiveness.  It was partially behind his killing of Dean's daughter, his own niece and partially behind his hatred of Benny.

From end of The Slice Girls, the 13th episode of Season 7, 10 episodes after Amy was killed and 7 episodes after Sam found out it:

"What did you say to me... when I was the one who choked? What did you say about Amy? "You kill the monster!""

Seriously, Dean had the gun drawn on her, so what if they were talking, she was 3 days old and hadn't actually hurt anyone yet so give her a chance, let him try to talk her out of it.  Unlike Amy who again literally had blood on her hands when Sam caught her.  They aren't really comparable but there is Sam comparing killing a young monster who hadn't actually hurt anyone yet(and was Dean's daughter and his own niece) and who Dean was literally holding a GUN at that moment which is entirely different from catching someone in the act, who has killed multiple times and then deciding to let them go.  

Sam's practically admitting to being trigger happy to get back at him for Amy, which doesn't sound forgiving, empathetic or understanding to me.  

And then Southern Comfort in Season 8, episode 6

"And what about my friend, Amy? She was what? 'Cause you sure as hell didn't have a problem ganking her."

Again comparing apples and oranges and again still holding killing Amy against Dean, well over a year later.  Dean knew Benny better than Sam knew Amy, they'd basically backed each other up for months, constant companions.  And Benny did prove himself trustworthy while topside. Amy, again, was actively killing when Sam caught her.  There was good reason to give Benny the benefit of the doubt and there was really no reason to give Amy the benefit of the doubt.

So for two seasons Sam harped on this on and off.

Dean's excuse for not telling Sam may have been lame but it wasn't his reason for killing Amy  He told Sam he understood that sometimes there are situations where you can't do it, so someone else has to, so he didn't actually blame Sam for that or act like it made him weak, which more than can be said for how Sam acted when Dean didn't immediately pull the trigger on his own daughter 6 episodes later and tried to partially blame it on Dean's head not being in the game.

It's less lame than Sam practically trying to frame Benny or drive him to killing just to prove Dean wrong, whether Sam wanted to admit it or not he was creating a self-fulfilling fantasy by pushing Benny into a corner and essentially expecting him to die rather than kill someone who was trying to harm him.  Or trying to say Dean "choked" when he literally has his gun pulled on a monster(which he had pulled on her precisely because he was PREPARED and knew not to be too trusting)

I applaud this entire post!

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I often think that Sam gets a bum rap when it comes to Amy.

IMO, Sam saw what he wanted to see.  A monster being good that he didn't even really question the multiple holes in her story. 

Amy said she was doing it because her son was sick.  The fact that she knew immediately how to treat him suggest this isn't the first time it happened.  If he got sick from dead brains once again it strongly suggest it will happen again.

So how high was Amy's body count really. 

Also if Sam was 14-15 when he first met Amy, based on the year when this ep aired it would be about 13-14 years since he saw her.  Amy specifically tells Sam that she's been working at the morgue for 6 years.  That leaves 5+ years unaccounted for.  How did she feel herself and her son? 

Taking the brains of the people coming through the morgue and eating them is another problem because there are cultures and religions that don't allow for the body to be desecrated in any way.

Just because she was cute doesn't change the fact that she's a brain eating serial killer.  Just because her victims were people no body would miss doens't make it okay to kill them.  In fact it makes it worse because she's choosing her victims in a extremely cold, calculating way to be get away with what she's going. 

She was also going on the run at the end of this ep which means no more morgue and access to victims.  How was she going to eat.

This are things Sam should have asked. 

Just because Amy looked perky and cute doesn't mean she wasn't dangerous

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Amy said she was doing it because her son was sick.  The fact that she knew immediately how to treat him suggest this isn't the first time it happened.  If he got sick from dead brains once again it strongly suggest it will happen again.

I think she needed to be killed, too, because she would kill again.  But, it does leave the problem of how will her son feed himself.  I had a discussion on another board about this, and I made a real world equivalent of someone killing someone to get a heart transplant for their child (or any other organ).  It's not OK, even if it's more understandable than just killing for kicks.  But, most (not all) of what they kill, kill to eat.  And neither of them have any problem killing vampires, or wendigos, or leviathans (who were just trying to get a huge beef ranch started after all).

That said, Sam knew Amy personally, so I don't really have a problem with him having a problem doing it. 

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That said, Sam knew Amy personally, so I don't really have a problem with him having a problem doing it. 

Sam didn't know Amy personally.  He spent a couple of hours with her one afternoon.  Then didn't see her for over a decade.  When he first caught wind of the deaths, Sam himself, was planning to kill her until she laid a sob story on him that he bought hook, line and sinker ignoring the obvious holes in it.

He had no way to verify if she was a good manipulator or telling the truth and he didn't even try. 

IMO, Amy reminded Sam of Sam.  When that happens the person gets a pass.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam didn't know Amy personally.  He spent a couple of hours with her one afternoon.  Then didn't see her for over a decade.  When he first caught wind of the deaths, Sam himself, was planning to kill her until she laid a sob story on him that he bought hook, line and sinker ignoring the obvious holes in it.

He had no way to verify if she was a good manipulator or telling the truth and he didn't even try. 

IMO, Amy reminded Sam of Sam.  When that happens the person gets a pass.

It doesn't matter if he knew her for 2 hours or 2 years. It's really hard to kill someone you've had a conversation with, bonded over bad parents, empathized with.  My only point was that it was at least semi-understandable why he didn't want to kill her. 

More understandable than Patrick from The Curious Case that they let go, because they didn't want to take the extra time to figure out how to kill him once Dean was OK.  The rest of the vampire's nest in Dead Man's Blood because it was too much work, I guess.  Dean got upset over Sam killing Casey the demon for the exact same reason. He bonded with her.  It's just human nature.

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It doesn't matter if he knew her for 2 hours or 2 years. It's really hard to kill someone you've had a conversation with, bonded over bad parents, empathized with.  My only point was that it was at least semi-understandable why he didn't want to kill her. 

More understandable than Patrick from The Curious Case that they let go, because they didn't want to take the extra time to figure out how to kill him once Dean was OK.  The rest of the vampire's nest in Dead Man's Blood because it was too much work, I guess.  Dean got upset over Sam killing Casey the demon for the exact same reason. He bonded with her.  It's just human nature.

The difference is that Dean had just spent the whole night before "bonding with" (or at least talking to) Casey, not a few hours 15 years ago.  And Dean did give Sam the out of saying he understood why he might not want to kill Amy because of the "bonding" but Sam angrily told him it had nothing to do with that, just that he was "right" not to want to kill her (on nothing but a feeling.)  

And Dean didn't actively blame Sam *for years* about killing Casey (or even his daughter the Amazon.)  Neither was ever mentioned again.  

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And Dean didn't actively blame Sam *for years* about killing Casey (or even his daughter the Amazon.)  Neither was ever mentioned again.  

I don't recall Sam blaming dean for years over Amy.  To the best of my recollection it hasn't been mentioned since season 8.

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't recall Sam blaming dean for years over Amy.  To the best of my recollection it hasn't been mentioned since season 8.

Sorry...my memory isn't very good any more.  Maybe I was thinking of the *fans* blaming Dean for years. 😊 But in any event, it wasn't dropped immediately, but brought up multiple times throughout season 8, and Sam was clearly holding on to his anger at Dean, as opposed to Dean accepting Sam's kills immediately.  

Edited April 11, 2019 by ahrtee

[Wynne88]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

That said, Sam knew Amy personally, so I don't really have a problem with him having a problem doing it. 

Sam didn't know Amy personally.  He spent a couple of hours with her one afternoon. 

Didn't Amy kill her mother to save him?  It's been awhile so my recollection might be wrong.  If she did, though, I can see him thinking she was a good person/monster.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Didn't Amy kill her mother to save him?  It's been awhile so my recollection might be wrong.  If she did, though, I can see him thinking she was a good person/monster.

She did indeed. But it seems like she also eventually became her mother, justifying her killing of humans and desecration of already-dead bodies to feed and then heal her own child. Sure, she said she would stop, but there was every reason to believe if her son needed it, she'd do it again. Dean knew it, and she knew it. I think, inside, Sam also knew it, but that didn't make it 'hurt' less that she had to die. I don't blame him for feeling that, at all.

What I do blame him for is continuing to throw it in Dean's face multiple times afterward (as others have mentioned). Maybe Dean's proffered reason for lying to Sam was lame, but the truth (she needed killing and Sam wasn't willing to do it, so Dean did) would not have been any easier for Sam to accept. And as it turned out, he didn't really accept it anyway. 

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Didn't Amy kill her mother to save him?  It's been awhile so my recollection might be wrong.  If she did, though, I can see him thinking she was a good person/monster.

Oddly enough, that was what convinced me that she wasn't a poor, sympathetic teen who deserved help.  She *wanted* her mother out of the way so she wouldn't come after her, because she could have gotten away at any time without killing her.  Even in the fight, she was in a kitchen, IIRC, and had an array of dangerous (but not necessarily lethal) weapons to knock her out, but chose to kill her instead.  It came across to me as if she wanted to get away but didn't want to be alone, and so latched onto Sam as a way to have both (including binding him with his guilt over what she had supposedly done for him).  

Picture it from the other side:  if Amy was in Sam's motel room when John broke in and threatened to kill her because she was a monster.  Would Sam have killed John?  Even though he also hated his life and wanted out?  Would it even have occurred to him?  

[gonzosgirrl]

Also, in my own opinion, sometimes full disclosure, telling the truth, isn't the right or best or kindest thing to do. Sam needed to believe that Amy could be good (see: Sam empathizes with people when he sees himself in them). He was already unstable, Dean wasn't wrong about that. And it did no harm for him to believe that they let her go, while killing her was the right thing for Dean to do. Sam never needed to know, and IMO, sometimes that's okay. It was only the need for angst that had the Leviathan reveal the truth to him.

Edited April 11, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

I always thought the reason Dean lied about Amy was, first, because he knew it would hurt Sam, and also that Sam would be furious at him and take off (which is exactly what he did.)  So it may have been a selfish reason to lie, but it didn't stop him from doing what he knew had to be done.  Very much a rock and a hard place for Dean.

What I always thought was the saddest part of it all is that, while Sam could see that Dean was feeling guilty or bad about something, he kept pushing him to talk about it, saying that he wanted to help and support Dean in anything, but as soon as he found out what it was, he immediately took off (which was just what Dean had expected.)  The sad part to me is that Dean knows that he can't trust/believe Sam when it has anything to do with his own feelings.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

What I always thought was the saddest part of it all is that, while Sam could see that Dean was feeling guilty or bad about something, he kept pushing him to talk about it, saying that he wanted to help and support Dean in anything, but as soon as he found out what it was, he immediately took off (which was just what Dean had expected.)  The sad part to me is that Dean knows that he can't trust/believe Sam when it has anything to do with his own feelings.  

It's probably this, more than anything else, that ultimately turned me off Sam (and I was ALL about the brothers/brotherhood when I found this show). This exact behavior: What's wrong? Tell me, tell me, tellmetellmetellmetellme TELL ME! and then when he does, Sam either explains why Dean shouldn't feel that way, blows him off/tells him to stop talking about it, or runs away.

The most recent example was Dean trying to talk about their childhood and reassure himself that Sam believed he tried his best (as he was on his way to be trapped with Michael for all eternity), and Sam asked him to stop because it was too hard for him. JFC.

[tessathereaper]

24 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't recall Sam blaming dean for years over Amy.  To the best of my recollection it hasn't been mentioned since season 8.

Yes so that's two seasons. She was killed in 7.3, Sam found out in 7.6 and not only was it mentioned but it played a part in Sam's motivation in at least two other situations and the Benny situation was over multiple episodes.

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

Didn't Amy kill her mother to save him?  It's been awhile so my recollection might be wrong.  If she did, though, I can see him thinking she was a good person/monster.

She did,but she also hated her mother.  She could have used Sam as an excuse to kill her.

Sam didn't know her enough to say if she was using him or not.

One thing about this story, is that I did like the way Jensen played it.  He never had Dean feel guilty about killing Amy or felt it was wrong, what caused his guilt was just lying to Sam.

Plus it was one of the few times where I felt like Dean's story had a cathartic payoff.  I wish Blacker and Acker had been given a chance to write a second script.

Edited April 11, 2019 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

The difference is that Dean had just spent the whole night before "bonding with" (or at least talking to) Casey, not a few hours 15 years ago.  And Dean did give Sam the out of saying he understood why he might not want to kill Amy because of the "bonding" but Sam angrily told him it had nothing to do with that, just that he was "right" not to want to kill her (on nothing but a feeling.)  

I don't much see how these two things are that different myself. Dean wanted Sam to spare Casey off of her say so that she wouldn't harm the body of her host... Well, no, but how about the psychological damage of going around killing people in her host's body? And Casey had just killed Dean's friend / acquaintance on top of that. In my opinion, Dean had less reason to be attached to Casey than Sam had for feeling indebted to Amy. Dean even for sure knew that Casey would likely kill again, because he knew that she'd just done it and expressed no remorse for doing so. Casey talked a good game, but she was just as manipulative as Amy.

So in my opinion, both Sam and Dean were both going on nothing but a feeling, and both of them were wrong.

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

What I always thought was the saddest part of it all is that, while Sam could see that Dean was feeling guilty or bad about something, he kept pushing him to talk about it, saying that he wanted to help and support Dean in anything, but as soon as he found out what it was, he immediately took off (which was just what Dean had expected.)  The sad part to me is that Dean knows that he can't trust/believe Sam when it has anything to do with his own feelings.  

Sam wasn't angry about Dean's "feelings." He was angry, because Dean lied to his face when Sam was already having problems knowing what was real and what wasn't, and Dean was supposed to be his anchor, not add to Sam's unease.

And once Sam finally listened to what Dean had to say about the lying, he said he understood why Dean felt badly about the lying and validated Dean's feelings.

I don't get why Sam is the bad guy here. Dean lied to Sam, didn't apologize, told Sam he had a right to be angry about being lied to, but didn't mean it - since he then called Sam a bitch for being angry and/or not being angry the way Dean wanted him to be - but Sam still capitulated and admitted that Dean was right and said he understood why Dean felt badly, but somehow Sam is still the bad guy.

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

IMO, Sam saw what he wanted to see.  A monster being good that he didn't even really question the multiple holes in her story. 

Yes, but in my opinion this isn't much different from Dean with Casey, and it isn't what I mean by Sam getting a bum rap for the incident.

Sam's human. He felt badly that a "woman" linked to what he saw as memories of saving his life at an impressionable age had to be killed and momentarily was blinded by that due to his feelings. Feelings exacerbated by his already being a bit crazy. Sam later agreed that Dean had been right about Amy and forgave him for lying. So what if it took him some time to cool off about that and forgive entirely? I'm not seeing how that makes Sam in the wrong or worthy of being branded the bad guy in this incident.

Both behaved questionably.

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

What I do blame him for is continuing to throw it in Dean's face multiple times afterward (as others have mentioned). Maybe Dean's proffered reason for lying to Sam was lame, but the truth (she needed killing and Sam wasn't willing to do it, so Dean did) would not have been any easier for Sam to accept. And as it turned out, he didn't really accept it anyway. 

Sam mentioned it twice that I recall. Once in reference to the fact that Sam did accept it and wanted Dean to accept the same in regards to Dean's amazon "daughter." (Who Dean also didn't know and who was questionably related to him anyway - in my opinion, no human DNA = not related to Dean. Even if Dean felt he was somehow, the same lesson / principal did apply in why Sam was right in killing her,)

I think the second time was for angst purposes. For me, there were definite continuity issues surrounding that mention in season 8. I doubt Carver and/or the writer even paid attention to the resolution of the Amy incident - where it was heavily implied that the lying was the main thing Sam was angry about - and just wrote it the way that they wanted. I won't get into the reasons why I think they did, because that belongs in "Bitch vs Jerk," and I don't want to go there unless someone wants that explanation... which likely no one does anyway.

I don't see that as continuing to throw it in Dean's face, but miles vary.

[ahrtee]

38 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't much see how these two things are that different myself. Dean wanted Sam to spare Casey off of her say so that she wouldn't harm the body of her host... Well, no, but how about the psychological damage of going around killing people in her host's body? And Casey had just killed Dean's friend / acquaintance on top of that. In my opinion, Dean had less reason to be attached to Casey than Sam had for feeling indebted to Amy. Dean even for sure knew that Casey would likely kill again, because he knew that she'd just done it and expressed no remorse for doing so. Casey talked a good game, but she was just as manipulative as Amy.

So in my opinion, both Sam and Dean were both going on nothing but a feeling, and both of them were wrong.

I wasn't talking about who "deserved" to die more.  The discussion was about "bonding" with someone, and all I'd said was that it seemed possible that there might be a stronger bond with someone you'd just spent a night talking to than someone you'd seen once 15 years ago.  I still stand by that.

But the fact is that Dean didn't say anything about sparing Casey, and didn't argue or blame Sam for killing her.  The scene actually goes:

CASEY: Leave him be.

FATHER GIL grabs DEAN by the throat and lifts him up.

CASEY: Don't kill him. Let's just go.  Please.

SAM appears and shoots FATHER GIL with the Colt. Lightning emits from and circles FATHER GIL who twitches and dies. He points it at CASEY.

DEAN: Sam, wait!

But SAM shoots her, and the bodies of CASEY and FATHER GIL, no longer possessed, lie dead on the devil’s trap.

That was the *only* thing Dean said, and it was after Casey had just pleaded with the other demon to save *his* life.  And the closest thing said about saving the host?  

DEAN: Civil, huh? Killing Richie — that was, that was civil? The guy was harmless.

CASEY: That knife he pulled on me? Didn't look so harmless.

DEAN: Ah, a knife wouldn't hurt you.

CASEY: No, but it would damage this body. And Casey has such a fine body, I wouldn't want to see it ripped.

DEAN: (laughs) A demon with a heart. Wow.

 However, I find it interesting that *Sam* wasn't concerned at all about saving the poor innocent girl by trying an exorcism first.  After all, he'd already killed the big, threatening demon.  

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

And the closest thing said about saving the host? 

I know. That was my point. Dean said "a demon with a heart. Wow." I didn't really find Casey's wanting to "protect" her host's body as having a heart myself. Dean may have been charmed enough to say "Wait!" but I didn't find Casey charming at all. Manipulative, yes, but not charming. Despite what the show wanted me to think with the "ooh is Sam all dark and wrong?" misleads, I was more thinking "yay!" when Sam shot her.***

I didn't find Casey saving Dean any more persuasive to where she should live than I did Amy saving Sam and pleading that she wouldn't do it again was. And Amy might have saved Sam all of that time ago, so I can see the argument that Sam shouldn't have been so connected, but I would argue that time spent together or not, it should've been similar with Dean. Casey's murdering of Richie - who was fairly harmless and likely could have been dispatched without harm coming to Casey - should've given Dean pause also. "I didn't want to get myself banged up / put myself out, so my host's pretty body could continue looking pretty" is not, in my opinion, a persuasive excuse for killing someone. Casey killed Richie because he pissed her off and she thought she was better than he was, so killing him was - in her mind - justified so as not to maybe temporarily damage her pretty body. It had little to do with doing a favor for her host so I didn't find it as having a heart nor find Casey at all charming. In fact that she enjoyed occupying and maintaining her host's pretty body and would likely use it to lure and kill more men - and probably used it to have sex with the minister demon - I found to be awful. Just my opinion on that one.

*** It's been a while since I saw the episode, so I don't remember why Sam came in shooting rather than performing an exorcism. It was becoming more standard operating procedure to shoot to kill for some reason around this time rather than do an exorcism. Not sure why.

Quote

I wasn't talking about who "deserved" to die more.  The discussion was about "bonding" with someone, and all I'd said was that it seemed possible that there might be a stronger bond with someone you'd just spent a night talking to than someone you'd seen once 15 years ago.  I still stand by that.

I got that that was your point, and I wasn't arguing who deserved to die more either. I understand that you think there was reason that Dean might have a stronger bond. My opinion, based on my argument above was that I didn't think there was, myself, because I found Casey just as manipulative and just as awful, and she'd just killed Richie. I didn't find her worth bonding with for those reasons, and I still stand by that. Your mileage may vary.

Edited April 12, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I got that that was your point, and I wasn't arguing who deserved to die more either. I understand that you think there was reason that Dean might have a stronger bond. My opinion, based on my argument above was that I didn't think there was, myself, because I found Casey just as manipulative and just as awful, and she'd just killed Richie. I didn't find her worth bonding with for those reasons, and I still stand by that. Your mileage may vary.

We seem to be talking about two completely different things, since pretty much nothing you said has any bearing on what I thought I was saying, but that's all right.  We can just drop it.  

[OrigamiNightmare]

I think this is the right place to post this? I hope it's the right place to post this. For the past semester, I've been studying Supernatural for one of my college courses. So far we've studied the discourse of the show, what the show is really about (family, it always comes back to family and family relationships), codes of character (Dean's amulet, his dad's jacket, the Impala), and aspects of editing, lighting, and camera movement. For our final project, we get fifteen minutes to "pitch" our show to the network in a PowerPoint presentation. So, I wanted to ask people what are some of the reasons you love the show? I think a lot of what makes Supernatural so special is Jared and Jensen and their chemistry. I want to show a clip/s that highlight that, but I can't think of any good scenes. Does anyone have any suggestions or even fan videos that they like that highlight the show or the actors? One of the other things I was going to talk about was the fandom and the way the show directly interacts with its fans both, in the narrative (though now that's all complicated and weird with Chuck possibly being evil?) and IRL. The other thing that I think really sets Supernatural apart from other genre shows is its sense of Americana and how it utilizes that feeling in its mythology and world building. Anyway, I would love to hear other people's thoughts and opinions. I'm also looking for good review sites and articles that analyse the show. If anyone has any suggestions or sites that they like I'd love to hear about them. Thanks so much for all your help : )

[gonzosgirrl]

42 minutes ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

I think a lot of what makes Supernatural so special is Jared and Jensen and their chemistry. I want to show a clip/s that highlight that, but I can't think of any good scenes. Does anyone have any suggestions or even fan videos that they like that highlight the show or the actors?

I was all about the brotherhood for a long time. One of my favourite 'brothers' scenes is them in the Impala on the last day of Dean's year, culminating in Wanted, Dead or Alive.

Edited April 29, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

I think a lot of what makes Supernatural so special is Jared and Jensen and their chemistry. I want to show a clip/s that highlight that, but I can't think of any good scenes. Does anyone have any suggestions or even fan videos that they like that highlight the show or the actors?

I agree with @gonzosgirrl that the "Wanted, Dead or Alive" scene is a good one. I have a few others though they may not work for some:

• The hug at the end of "Mystery Spot."
• The end scene of "A Very Supernatural Christmas"
• The ending scene of "What Is and What Should Never Be"
• The fireworks scene in heaven in "Dark Side of the Moon"
• One that someone already mentioned somewhere recently: the car scene in "Mommy Dearest" where they take the little boys home (even though later, one turns out to be a monster).
• Bobby's memories of the licorice debate in "Death's Door" (Though I agree with Sam: licorice is yuck.)
• The end scene of "Plucky Pennywhistle's Magical Menagerie" (the giant slinky)
• The "stone number one" scene in "Hello, Cruel World"
• The "Carry On Our Wayward Son"/BM scene from "Fan Fiction"
• The car scene in "Baby" where they are just driving and goofing off together.
• The graveyard / goodbye scene in "Alpha and Omega"

...Sorry, that was probably too many.

[Res]

7 hours ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

For the past semester, I've been studying Supernatural for one of my college courses. So far we've studied the discourse of the show, what the show is really about (family, it always comes back to family and family relationships), codes of character (Dean's amulet, his dad's jacket, the Impala), and aspects of editing, lighting, and camera movement. For our final project, we get fifteen minutes to "pitch" our show to the network in a PowerPoint presentation. So, I wanted to ask people what are some of the reasons you love the show? I think a lot of what makes Supernatural so special is Jared and Jensen and their chemistry. I want to show a clip/s that highlight that, but I can't think of any good scenes. Does anyone have any suggestions or even fan videos that they like that highlight the show or the actors? One of the other things I was going to talk about was the fandom and the way the show directly interacts with its fans both, in the narrative (though now that's all complicated and weird with Chuck possibly being evil?) and IRL. The other thing that I think really sets Supernatural apart from other genre shows is its sense of Americana and how it utilizes that feeling in its mythology and world building. Anyway, I would love to hear other people's thoughts and opinions. I'm also looking for good review sites and articles that analyse the show. If anyone has any suggestions or sites that they like I'd love to hear about them. Thanks so much for all your help : )

In the interest of total disclosure, family and "brotherhood" is NOT why I watch the show so if that's all you are looking for and those are the only reasons for watching that you are open to, you can stop reading now.

I started watching for the actual Supernatural/mythology. That's what got me hooked. That, plus how one man (or those in the "know") would stand up to things that go "bump in the night" and protect those who don't know about those things. The first episode I watched was "The End" and Dean's speech to Lucifer about how he was just the same cockroach, only bigger, to me, was iconic of a breed of hunter that doesn't exist in Dabb's era. The fact that Dean had just as much contempt for the angels, specifically Zachariah manipulating him, spoke volumes to me and made me want to know more about the lives of these men who stood up to angels and demons. That, to me, is Supernatural.

So, the main reason I watch the show is for the supernatural, much like I watched Buffy and Angel for. The second reason was "fighting the good fight", much like the theme songs for the first season finales state. Both "Carry On Wayward Son" and "Fight The Good Fight" for "Salvation" and "Devil's Trap" embody the main themes of the series for me. The Winchesters will not have peace until they are done fighting the "good fight". 

The problem with these later seasons are that they aren't doing that anymore. In fact, they are sacrificing more than they actually save for the sake of their "brother" or "family" so I don't have any idea what the show is about anymore.

The last reason I was hooked on the show was the psychology. I was deeply interested in the psychological toll that some of these experiences would have on the people that had them. The problem with that is that for the most part the writers were never consistent enough or only focus on one person while ignoring the other. They also never allowed any kind of real growth that wasn't taken back within a few episodes. 

Therefore at this part in time I can honestly say that IMHO they should have never cured demon Dean or they should have just shot MOC Dean into space and ended the show there as everything after that was a complete waste, especially the 2nd half of the S10 finale which I thought was a complete load of horsesh**.

[BlueSapphire]

8 hours ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

I think this is the right place to post this? I hope it's the right place to post this. For the past semester, I've been studying Supernatural for one of my college courses. So far we've studied the discourse of the show, what the show is really about (family, it always comes back to family and family relationships), codes of character (Dean's amulet, his dad's jacket, the Impala), and aspects of editing, lighting, and camera movement. For our final project, we get fifteen minutes to "pitch" our show to the network in a PowerPoint presentation. So, I wanted to ask people what are some of the reasons you love the show? I think a lot of what makes Supernatural so special is Jared and Jensen and their chemistry. I want to show a clip/s that highlight that, but I can't think of any good scenes. Does anyone have any suggestions or even fan videos that they like that highlight the show or the actors? One of the other things I was going to talk about was the fandom and the way the show directly interacts with its fans both, in the narrative (though now that's all complicated and weird with Chuck possibly being evil?) and IRL. The other thing that I think really sets Supernatural apart from other genre shows is its sense of Americana and how it utilizes that feeling in its mythology and world building. Anyway, I would love to hear other people's thoughts and opinions. I'm also looking for good review sites and articles that analyse the show. If anyone has any suggestions or sites that they like I'd love to hear about them. Thanks so much for all your help : )

In terms of J2 chemistry, some scenes that immediately come to mind are the diner scenes in “Mystery Spot”, the scene in which Dean and AU!Jared are in the car in “What is and What Should Never Be”, and the Ouija board scene in “In My Time of Dying.”  

[OrigamiNightmare]

10 hours ago, Res said:

In the interest of total disclosure, family and "brotherhood" is NOT why I watch the show so if that's all you are looking for and those are the only reasons for watching that you are open to, you can stop reading now.

I started watching for the actual Supernatural/mythology. That's what got me hooked. That, plus how one man (or those in the "know") would stand up to things that go "bump in the night" and protect those who don't know about those things. The first episode I watched was "The End" and Dean's speech to Lucifer about how he was just the same cockroach, only bigger, to me, was iconic of a breed of hunter that doesn't exist in Dabb's era. The fact that Dean had just as much contempt for the angels, specifically Zachariah manipulating him, spoke volumes to me and made me want to know more about the lives of these men who stood up to angels and demons. That, to me, is Supernatural.

So, the main reason I watch the show is for the supernatural, much like I watched Buffy and Angel for. The second reason was "fighting the good fight", much like the theme songs for the first season finales state. Both "Carry On Wayward Son" and "Fight The Good Fight" for "Salvation" and "Devil's Trap" embody the main themes of the series for me. The Winchesters will not have peace until they are done fighting the "good fight". 

The problem with these later seasons are that they aren't doing that anymore. In fact, they are sacrificing more than they actually save for the sake of their "brother" or "family" so I don't have any idea what the show is about anymore.

The last reason I was hooked on the show was the psychology. I was deeply interested in the psychological toll that some of these experiences would have on the people that had them. The problem with that is that for the most part the writers were never consistent enough or only focus on one person while ignoring the other. They also never allowed any kind of real growth that wasn't taken back within a few episodes. 

Therefore at this part in time I can honestly say that IMHO they should have never cured demon Dean or they should have just shot MOC Dean into space and ended the show there as everything after that was a complete waste, especially the 2nd half of the S10 finale which I thought was a complete load of horsesh**.

4

I actually got drawn in by the mythology first too : ) I'm going to touch on that when I talk about the theme of Americana and urban legends.

Edited April 30, 2019 by OrigamiNightmare

[Pondlass1]

18 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

highlight the show or the actors?

I don't know if my suggestion highlights the show or the actors.  

But it was back in the day when the bond between the brothers was strong and Sam went to stand beside his brother because he trusted his word without argument.

The brothers' relationship has evolved to a point where this would not be the case today.

Just my own opinion of course.  But a great scene. 

Edited to Add

Just want to point out that I’m not proposing that Sam blindly follow Dean no matter what.  The man’s got his own brain and Dean can be impulsive.  And I’m certainly not a proponent of brothers joined at the hip all the time. They’re gonna fight and argue.

But it was a moment in time when Dean needed to be supported.  We just don’t get those moments any more. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Pondlass1

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't know if my suggestion highlights the show or the actors.  

But it was back in the day when the bond between the brothers was strong and Sam went to stand beside his brother because he trusted his word without argument.

The brothers' relationship has evolved to a point where this would not be the case today.

Just my own opinion of course.  But a great scene. 

This is both true and sad.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/29/2019 at 10:39 PM, Res said:

In the interest of total disclosure, family and "brotherhood" is NOT why I watch the show so if that's all you are looking for and those are the only reasons for watching that you are open to, you can stop reading now.

I started watching for the actual Supernatural/mythology. That's what got me hooked. That, plus how one man (or those in the "know") would stand up to things that go "bump in the night" and protect those who don't know about those things. The first episode I watched was "The End" and Dean's speech to Lucifer about how he was just the same cockroach, only bigger, to me, was iconic of a breed of hunter that doesn't exist in Dabb's era. The fact that Dean had just as much contempt for the angels, specifically Zachariah manipulating him, spoke volumes to me and made me want to know more about the lives of these men who stood up to angels and demons. That, to me, is Supernatural.

So, the main reason I watch the show is for the supernatural, much like I watched Buffy and Angel for. The second reason was "fighting the good fight", much like the theme songs for the first season finales state. Both "Carry On Wayward Son" and "Fight The Good Fight" for "Salvation" and "Devil's Trap" embody the main themes of the series for me. The Winchesters will not have peace until they are done fighting the "good fight". 

The problem with these later seasons are that they aren't doing that anymore. In fact, they are sacrificing more than they actually save for the sake of their "brother" or "family" so I don't have any idea what the show is about anymore.

The last reason I was hooked on the show was the psychology. I was deeply interested in the psychological toll that some of these experiences would have on the people that had them. The problem with that is that for the most part the writers were never consistent enough or only focus on one person while ignoring the other. They also never allowed any kind of real growth that wasn't taken back within a few episodes. 

Therefore at this part in time I can honestly say that IMHO they should have never cured demon Dean or they should have just shot MOC Dean into space and ended the show there as everything after that was a complete waste, especially the 2nd half of the S10 finale which I thought was a complete load of horsesh**.

It was morally wrong to cure demonic Dean especially when Sam had done much worse in his quest to find Dean. Likewise Sam went darker to cure Dean in season 10 than MoC Dean did because Sam was terrified of him becoming the demon again. This was the Sam saves Dean from becoming a demon by going dark arc that Kripke never was able to do and it culminates in a human sacrifice to satisfy the blood magic of a black grimoire that releases the DARKNESS. Lots of people die because of Sam's actions and choices to put his quest to save Dean over the safety of the world.

And Dean was in control before Sam got Charlie killed. When Dean lost it he killed a murderous family of necromancers who were using the blackest magic and practicing murder and vivisection. Dean had the moral grounding to feel remorse over Rudy even though Rudy was already dead through his own incompetence; therefore Dean actually summoned Death to try to exile himself and protect the world.

In contrast Sam lied to Dean, Cas, Charlie.... Charlie died and Dean and Cas nearly died. He stole a powerful book and handed it to an evil witch along with the BotD. He sanctioned human sacrifice. He lured a human into a demon deal. And nothing was a red flag.

Well... Not until the pile of bodies from the Darkness Apocalypse was high enough and he almost died...

I think so many people just miss the fact that season 10 was all about Sam going dark which was why he was so very upset in season 11 when the bodies show up. 

I think we have discussed this briefly however the worst thing for me about the show ending is that now Dean will not get the growth and redemption that Sam received.  They took him dark. They had him go all Gonzo reckless in season 13 to save Mary and Jack and Sam and Jack. Saying yes to AU Michael in the heat of the moment... that was to save family... and then in Absence he just rushed into wanting to use the BotD to resurrect Mary... so no growth on that front even if they didn't rush to that option in Byzantium.

It's disappointing. Many Deangirls insist he said yes to save the world but that is not what was shown in subtext or text. It was a reckless choice to save Sam and Jack knowing exactly who AU Michael was and what his goals were. It put the world at risk per Billie and now the storyline has been dropped and apparently it's fine because he decided he would not shoot Jack to get mom back and she is his hero. 

It just doesn't work. 

He didn't sacrifice himself. He sacrificed everything for his family. It was a bad call. 

They set up the psychology really well however they are not giving the character a chance to recover from the mistake except by being a bamf.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

And Dean was in control before Sam got Charlie killed.

Sam didn't get Charlie killed. For the most part Charlie got Charlie killed. It was her reckless desire for a "quest" that got the Stynes on her tail to begin with. She tried to play in the big sandbox before she was ready, treating it all as a grand adventure - instead of the dangerous thing it really was - and didn't take proper precautions. Then after getting herself on the Stynes radar and bringing them to Dean and Sam, she disregarded the danger - even though she knew they were after her - because she was too obsessive about solving the puzzle to wait a moment and have Castiel get her some noise canceling headphones to block Rowena out. She once again didn't take proper precautions and just figured that she would skate by on her wits and pluck. She was wrong.

Now I'm not saying that Sam didn't play a part here, but in my opinion Charlie flicked that main switch that got herself killed. And if she hadn't flicked that main switch ...and then stuck a fork in the socket, Sam's part in it wouldn't have lead to her death.

Sure, Sam got blamed for Charlie's death, but in my opinion, he didn't cause it. He took precautions to prevent it actually... way more precautions than apparently Charlie herself did, since she went out of her way to thwart Sam's precautions and practically flagged down Death*** because she couldn't put on her big girl panties and handle listening to an annoying witch.

*** Old heywood banks comedy bit, basically poking fun at those who can prevent something awful from happening by doing something fairly simple, like "stay off the tracks," because as heywood says, you pretty much know where the trains are going to be going, they don't veer off and get you. In Charlie's case it was don't tempt the Stynes, and if you are stupid enough to do so, don't recklessly be obvious about it and easy to find.

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

He sanctioned human sacrifice.

To be fair, Sam had no idea when he said "do what it takes" to Castiel*** that actual human sacrifice would be involved. Sam left the area before Oscar was even brought into the picture. Sam had no way of knowing that a boy who had been around 300+ years ago would still be alive, so he had no reason to even think that Oscar would be sacrificed. That was all done after Sam left, and Sam knew nothing about it.

I'm not saying that Sam didn't do enough wrong in this scenario, but openly condoning human sacrifice was not one of those things.

*** And wasn't Castiel a full angel here? Why after the word of the spell was fulfilled didn't he just bring Oscar back? Or bring Charlie back for that matter if they really wanted it to happen?

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam didn't get Charlie killed. For the most part Charlie got Charlie killed. It was her reckless desire for a "quest" that got the Stynes on her tail to begin with. She tried to play in the big sandbox before she was ready, treating it all as a grand adventure - instead of the dangerous thing it really was - and didn't take proper precautions. Then after getting herself on the Stynes radar and bringing them to Dean and Sam, she disregarded the danger - even though she knew they were after her - because she was too obsessive about solving the puzzle to wait a moment and have Castiel get her some noise canceling headphones to block Rowena out. She once again didn't take proper precautions and just figured that she would skate by on her wits and pluck. She was wrong.

Yes.  Thank you.  Of any deaths you could lay on the Winchesters' door, this one falls way down on the list.  She would have been safe if she had stayed with Cas.  Although, the fact that she remains dead is on both Sam and Dean.  We know that angels retained the ability to bring people back after the fall as Gad/Zeke brought Charlie back in Slumber Party and he brought Cas back in Slumber Party.  I have no reason to think that GAd/Zeke was more powerful than Cas but maybe he was.. Had they driven the body to Cas, he probably could have brought her back, or at least tried.. Apparently they both had brain farts. 

Deaths of recurring human characters that I would blame on Sam and/or Dean: Tessa, although only to a degree.  She did kill herself, Dean just provided the weapon. Ellen and Jo.  If it had been one of them torn apart by the Hell Hound, they probably wouldn't have been so eager for the explosion plan.  Henricksen, but only if Nancy and the deputy told them about that demon getting out.  Pamela, they didn't put down any warding before leaving a blind woman to guard their bodies.  Samuel, again, I don' think SAm would have been so quick to shoot if it had been anyone else.  Frank.  They got him too deeply involved. Frank wasn't a hunter.  Kevin.  Dean didn't even give him a heads up, get him out of harm's way, when he knew something was up. Alisha, I feel like they handled that hunt very clumsily, but maybe I'm misremembering.  Hess, but she deserved it.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Deaths of recurring human characters that I would blame on Sam and/or Dean: Tessa, although only to a degree.  She did kill herself, Dean just provided the weapon....

Henricksen, but only if Nancy and the deputy told them about that demon getting out.

Tessa wasn't human.  Plus she was determined to blow herself up before Dean stopped her, so she was set on suicide already.  He just delayed it (and prevented her from taking others with her).  

About Henricksen, the thing that I always wondered about was the fact that Lilith was after Sam and Dean, *not* the others (she killed them in the end because she was mad/to teach the Winchesters a lesson, not for any particular logical reason.)  IIRC, Ruby said that Lilith "really, really wants Sam's head on a stick.  Dean's, too," so it implied that if she got them, she would leave the others alone.  Even if we want to say "demons lie" and believe she wouldn't have left them alone, the fact is that neither Sam nor Dean at any point said, "hey, if we surrender to her, will she leave the others alone?" Sam seemed fine to let Nancy sacrifice herself, but wouldn't offer himself?  (I imagine Dean wouldn't let him, but he didn't even offer...)  

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Tessa wasn't human.  Plus she was determined to blow herself up before Dean stopped her, so she was set on suicide already.  He just delayed it (and prevented her from taking others with her).

I don' tknow why I counted her. I know she wasn't human.  And, like I said, I only partly blamed him.  Maybe like 15%.

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

About Henricksen, the thing that I always wondered about was the fact that Lilith was after Sam and Dean, *not* the others (she killed them in the end because she was mad/to teach the Winchesters a lesson, not for any particular logical reason.)  IIRC, Ruby said that Lilith "really, really wants Sam's head on a stick.  Dean's, too," so it implied that if she got them, she would leave the others alone.  Even if we want to say "demons lie" and believe she wouldn't have left them alone, the fact is that neither Sam nor Dean at any point said, "hey, if we surrender to her, will she leave the others alone?" Sam seemed fine to let Nancy sacrifice herself, but wouldn't offer himself?  (I imagine Dean wouldn't let him, but he didn't even offer...)  

I don't think that was ever meant to say that she would have left the others alone.  She's a demon. She has not care about human life.  If she could have gotten to Sam and Dean only by letting them live, sure. She had nothing against them personally and they weren't a threat to her.  But, if they were all right there, she'd take them all out, no questions asked.  But, I guess what you're saying is if they had just let Sam (and possibly Dean) out and let the demons have at them, they would have had no reason to stick around and try to get through the salt lines again, or starve everybody else out.  Maybe they just didn't think of it.  I honestly didn't until right now.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Although, the fact that she remains dead is on both Sam and Dean. 

Actually it's on BuckLemming.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam didn't get Charlie killed. For the most part Charlie got Charlie killed. It was her reckless desire for a "quest" that got the Stynes on her tail to begin with. She tried to play in the big sandbox before she was ready, treating it all as a grand adventure - instead of the dangerous thing it really was - and didn't take proper precautions. Then after getting herself on the Stynes radar and bringing them to Dean and Sam, she disregarded the danger - even though she knew they were after her - because she was too obsessive about solving the puzzle to wait a moment and have Castiel get her some noise canceling headphones to block Rowena out. She once again didn't take proper precautions and just figured that she would skate by on her wits and pluck. She was wrong.

Now I'm not saying that Sam didn't play a part here, but in my opinion Charlie flicked that main switch that got herself killed. And if she hadn't flicked that main switch ...and then stuck a fork in the socket, Sam's part in it wouldn't have lead to her death.

Sure, Sam got blamed for Charlie's death, but in my opinion, he didn't cause it. He took precautions to prevent it actually... way more precautions than apparently Charlie herself did, since she went out of her way to thwart Sam's precautions and practically flagged down Death*** because she couldn't put on her big girl panties and handle listening to an annoying witch.

*** Old heywood banks comedy bit, basically poking fun at those who can prevent something awful from happening by doing something fairly simple, like "stay off the tracks," because as heywood says, you pretty much know where the trains are going to be going, they don't veer off and get you. In Charlie's case it was don't tempt the Stynes, and if you are stupid enough to do so, don't recklessly be obvious about it and easy to find.

To be fair, Sam had no idea when he said "do what it takes" to Castiel*** that actual human sacrifice would be involved. Sam left the area before Oscar was even brought into the picture. Sam had no way of knowing that a boy who had been around 300+ years ago would still be alive, so he had no reason to even think that Oscar would be sacrificed. That was all done after Sam left, and Sam knew nothing about it.

I'm not saying that Sam didn't do enough wrong in this scenario, but openly condoning human sacrifice was not one of those things.

*** And wasn't Castiel a full angel here? Why after the word of the spell was fulfilled didn't he just bring Oscar back? Or bring Charlie back for that matter if they really wanted it to happen?

From the transcript for My Brother's Keeper...

Besides the fact that Sam was repeatedly warned by Dean not to use the BotD because it would have dire cataclysmic repercussions, Sam was explicitly aware of a blood sacrifice and that something would die for the spell to work. He did not care.

Scene changes to Rowena at her table reading from the Book of the Damned)

ROWENA: “Sumsu mimma ezebu ilu ma ikkibu Lu." "S-something made by God, but forbidden to man."

SAM: Forbidden?

CASTIEL: The forbidden fruit?

SAM (huffs): No.

(ROWENA looks impressed)

SAM (incredulously): The actual apple is the first ingredient?

(Sam looks exasperated as he looks from Castiel to Rowena)

ROWENA: “Sumsu mimma ezebu Lu,"

SAM: Okay, uh, what's next?

ROWENA: "Something made by man, but forbidden by God."

SAM: Okay, well, God forbade false idols, right?

CASTIEL: The Golden Calf.

SAM: Wasn't that destroyed?

ROWENA: "Sumsu mimma sen arramu."

SAM (sarcastically): Great. (clears throat) What's the third ingredient?

ROWENA: Oh.

SAM: What?

ROWENA: The third ingredient, it's impossible.

SAM: What is it?

ROWENA: Loosely translated --my heart.

CASTIEL: It's not impossible at all.

ROWENA: Not my literal heart, feathers. Something I love, the spell calls for me to kill it.

SAM: A sacrifice.

ROWENA: Precisely. The book will grant freedom from the curse, but it wants something in return.

SAM: Well, then give it.

ROWENA (voice risisng): Bring me something I love, I'll kill it. I want my freedom too much to make a fuss over that. The -- the problem is, I don't love anything.

CASTIEL: What about Crowley?

ROWENA: Happy to kill him. Let's not call it love.

CASTIEL: I don't believe you. Everyone loves something.

(Castiel walks over to Rowena and places two fingers on her forehead. The scene changes to fuzzy view of a boy and a goat in a field)

ROWENA’S VOICE: Oskar! Oskar! Czas Na kolacje!

(Oskar waves to the woman who is off-screen. Scene changes back to Castiel and Rowena as he pull his fingers back from her forehead.)

CASTIEL: Polish boy. Oskar.

ROWENA: I'm sorry. Oskar? You saw Oskar?

SAM: Who is he?

ROWENA: Who was he? Uh, a peasant boy -- his family helped me through some difficulties, 300 years ago.

(Sam’s cellphone rings. He walks away from Castiel and Rowena to answer it)

SAM: Rudy. What's up?

[gonzosgirrl]

There's a long list of things I lay at Sam's feet, but Charlie's death isn't one of them. There is only one person to blame for her death, and that's the Styne who killed her. But the responsibility to keep her safe ended when she chose to leave the protection of Castiel. That's on her.

And in my opinion,  Dean bears zero responsibility for Tessa. She killed herself. That she used Dean's weapon to do it wasn't his fault. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Actually it's on BuckLemming.

It doesn't work like that.  Everything that happens on the show is due to what characters do or don't do.  Sam and DEan aren't actually their own separate entities.  

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It doesn't work like that.  Everything that happens on the show is due to what characters do or don't do.  Sam and DEan aren't actually their own separate entities.  

I don’t get this logic. Since they’re not real people and their decisions are based on the whims of the writers I would say that it works exactly like that. Which is why I say that it’s on BuckLemming who love to kill characters in brutal, unnecessary ways IMO.

Edited May 2, 2019 by DeeDee79

[Res]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

 And, like I said, I only partly blamed him.  Maybe like 15%.

I personally don't understand this at all considering she threw herself on his blade. How is he at fault at all? I'm just trying to understand. 

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, Res said:

I personally don't understand this at all considering she threw herself on his blade. How is he at fault at all? I'm just trying to understand. 

And it's not that he brought the blade into the room.  She was about to kill herself before he brought her up to face the angels, before he showed up at all.  She just did what she had intended all along.  

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

[snip]

ROWENA: Not my literal heart, feathers. Something I love, the spell calls for me to kill it.

SAM: A sacrifice.

ROWENA: Precisely. The book will grant freedom from the curse, but it wants something in return.

SAM: Well, then give it.

ROWENA (voice risisng): Bring me something I love, I'll kill it. I want my freedom too much to make a fuss over that. The -- the problem is, I don't love anything.

[snip]...

ROWENA: I'm sorry. Oskar? You saw Oskar?

SAM: Who is he?

ROWENA: Who was he? Uh, a peasant boy -- his family helped me through some difficulties, 300 years ago.

"It" could mean a lot of things. It could mean a beloved pet cat, dog, bird, or turtle. An animal can also be killed, and it would still be a sacrifice as long as it was something Rowena loved. Crowley, if he had been the sacrifice, was also not human. Nowhere did Rowena specifically say it had to be a human sacrifice, just something she loved. (And notably she never said someone I love or he, she, or them. It was "something" and "it.")

And when Rowena then mentioned Oskar, she said that he was a peasant boy whose family helped her 300 years ago. By all logical implications, Sam would suspect that Oskar was dead, and therefore not a candidate to be sacrificed.

Now, I'm not saying that Sam might not have considered human sacrifice in this instance, but we don't know, because it didn't come up in any scenario that seemed conceivable while Sam was there. Since Rowena said that she didn't love anything except Oskar - who to Sam's mind would have been long dead and way out of reach - the next logical choice would have been Crowley, who isn't human, who deserved to be dead, and who Sam would've loved to see dead - and with good reason since Sam had a lot of understandable reasons to hate Crowley.

Bottom line, nowhere in the above conversation was any logical candidate for killing discussed expect for Crowley. And the only human candidate even mentioned would logically have been long dead, and so therefore out of contention as far as Sam knew. Then Sam left before it was even found out that Oskar was actually still alive.

Now Castiel, he was present and willing to allow Oskar's sacrifice. In my opinion, Sam was ignorant... he can be called willfully ignorant, but that's as far as it can go in my opinion.

[ahrtee]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

"It" could mean a lot of things. It could mean a beloved pet cat, dog, bird, or turtle. An animal can also be killed, and it would still be a sacrifice as long as it was something Rowena loved. Crowley, if he had been the sacrifice, was also not human. Nowhere did Rowena specifically say it had to be a human sacrifice, just something she loved. (And notably she never said someone I love or he, she, or them. It was "something" and "it.")

And when Rowena then mentioned Oskar, she said that he was a peasant boy whose family helped her 300 years ago. By all logical implications, Sam would suspect that Oskar was dead, and therefore not a candidate to be sacrificed.

Now, I'm not saying that Sam might not have considered human sacrifice in this instance, but we don't know, because it didn't come up in any scenario that seemed conceivable while Sam was there. Since Rowena said that she didn't love anything except Oskar - who to Sam's mind would have been long dead and way out of reach - the next logical choice would have been Crowley, who isn't human, who deserved to be dead, and who Sam would've loved to see dead - and with good reason since Sam had a lot of understandable reasons to hate Crowley.

Bottom line, nowhere in the above conversation was any logical candidate for killing discussed expect for Crowley. And the only human candidate even mentioned would logically have been long dead, and so therefore out of contention as far as Sam knew. Then Sam left before it was even found out that Oskar was actually still alive.

Now Castiel, he was present and willing to allow Oskar's sacrifice. In my opinion, Sam was ignorant... he can be called willfully ignorant, but that's as far as it can go in my opinion.

Maybe you can say that Sam didn't know.  It does make him out to be pretty stupid, but OK.  But the fact is that Sam has shown, a number of times, that he's willing to sacrifice humans, mostly to save Dean, as long as he believes it's the only way.  (Though, granted, I don't remember him ever saying "No. We'll find another way" when it's proposed.)  Consider:  Nancy in Jus in Bello.  Bobby, in Mystery Spot (I'm not counting Appointment in Samarra because, well, soulless...)  But there's also Lester in Black and, the one most people conveniently forget, the nurse in Lucifer Rising.  Those are just off the top of my head. 

Maybe people can come up with justifications for some of those, saying that Sam didn't really know, but what does that say about his intelligence, or his willingness to overlook the possibility of something bad happening just because he really, really wanted to save Dean?  

Edited May 2, 2019 by ahrtee

[gonzosgirrl]

12 hours ago, Res said:

I personally don't understand this at all considering she threw herself on his blade. How is he at fault at all? I'm just trying to understand. 

If she had borrowed his car and drove off a cliff, would he be responsible because he lent it to her? (And I realized this is a terrible analogy in the SPN world, lol.)  If I stretch it, he might have thought that bringing a blade into a room with a suicidal person might be a mistake, but her intention to blow herself up was quite specific (suicide bomber) and IMO he had no reason to know she actually wanted to die for other reasons and would try to kill herself.

Edited May 2, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe you can say that Sam didn't know.  It does make him out to be pretty stupid, but OK.  But the fact is that Sam has shown, a number of times, that he's willing to sacrifice humans, mostly to save Dean, as long as he believes it's the only way.  (Though, granted, I don't remember him ever saying "No. We'll find another way" when it's proposed.)  Consider:  Nancy in Jus in Bello.  Bobby, in Mystery Spot (I'm not counting Appointment in Samarra because, well, soulless...)  But there's also Lester in Black and, the one most people conveniently forget, the nurse in Lucifer Rising.  Those are just off the top of my head. 

I don't entirely understand your point here. I never disputed any of these things. I even said in my answer that there was a possibility that Sam might have considered human sacrifice in this instance if he had known, but we don't know, because Sam wasn't faced with it or even at the time, the real possibility of it.^^^ Rowena said she didn't love anything, except Oskar, who Sam would understandably believe was dead, so who was it that Sam would have reasonably thought would be sacrificed? Except maybe Crowley.

If anything, that Sam was going to go along with Dean's plan of letting Dean kill him and Dean be sent to the empty - to me - says that Sam had pretty much given up on the plan, because he bought Rowena's explanation that it was "impossible" because nothing fit the "something you love" bill. It could also mean that he was short-sighted for not thinking that Castiel might've found a solution. But that Sam gave up on the plan/spell actually being completed - to me - is just as reasonable an explanation.

And none of this means that I, in any way, am dismissing your examples or "conveniently forgetting" anything. Sam has flaws, and Sam did all of the things you said - no "justifications" from me necessary. I like that Sam has real, relatable flaws and makes real mistakes with real consequences. It's one of the reasons - probably the main reason - I prefer him over Dean.

And I'm perfectly willing to agree with things like your examples that Sam did actually do, but I'm not so willing to blame Sam for stuff that he didn't do and/or in my opinion he doesn't deserve to be blamed for. Like Charlie's death. Or in this case Oskar's sacrifice, because in my opinion, there was no logical reason for Sam to think that Oskar would still be alive after over 300 years to even be a candidate for sacrifice.  If I were Sam, I would have guessed that Rowena would have had to sacrifice herself, before I would have guessed that Oskar was still alive - especially since Sam did not have the benefit of the glowy, sentimental flashback that we did - but I don't think Sam at that point would have much cared about that (i.e Rowena being the sacrifice),*** and Sam had every reason not to care considering he saw how Rowena had callously murdered people and had one of her victims die in his arms, and she had theoretically lived several lifetimes while doing those horrible things. I wouldn't have faulted Sam for that either, nor found him stupid for not guessing that Oskar was still alive.

^^^ So we can't know that if Sam had been faced with it - i.e. actually seen Oskar as a living, still breathing person with feelings - that he would have gone through with it. Because the nurse and even Lester aside, Sam could have changed his mind this time, having learned from those previous mistakes (he did seem pretty shook up and guilty about Lester).

*** I actually more think that it is often forgotten that initially Rowena was a horrible, horrible person who casually murdered people to get a free lunch, or just because she didn't think they were "worthy" in her eyes. I can only imagine the death toll that she had thoughtlessly left behind her by the time she entered the narrative. If Rowena had been the price for getting Dean back without the MoC, I wouldn't have seen Sam even batting an eye, and in my opinion, at the time, understandably so.

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If anything, that Sam was going to go along with Dean's plan of letting Dean kill him and Dean be sent to the empty

Not that I'm saying he should have, but he didn't really seem to be going along to me.  He tried to give Dean a beat down and only gave up when he had lost.  And then he pulled out the puppy dog eyes.  Dean didn't stand a chance.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Katy M