All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, Res said:

I might not have hated it so much if Glass hadn't insisted on changing Dean's musical taste to make him like one of his daughter's favorite songs. That right it is exactly what is wrong with the writers we have. Lol canon and characterizations based on whatever whim floats their boat at any particular moment. That was a major tick off moment for me.

He liked it because he had just been a teenager.

[gonzosgirrl]

So in last night's episode, 12x05 Advanced Thanatology (are spoiler tags necessary in here?)

Dean 'killed himself' by jabbing a needle full of death into his chest. Steve Yockey revealed after (on Twitter) that the kit he used was from Dr. Robert - the 'doctor' from Appointment in Samarra - and was labelled 'Dr. Robert. For Emergencies'. Heh. I don't know what it says that Dean has been carrying this around in his go-bag for six or seven years, but....

It got me wondering: Does Sam know what Dean tried to do in his attempt to get Death's help in retrieving Sam's soul? I know he knows what Death did - but was it ever revealed to Sam that Dean literally killed himself for Sam? And how does that knowledge - or lack thereof - put another spin on Sam's The Purge speech that Dean is always will to sacrifice as long as he's not the one getting hurt? I know - that's for another thread - but the question itself interests me. Did he know?

Edited November 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So in last night's episode, 12x05 Advanced Thanatology (are spoiler tags necessary in here?)

Only things from upcoming unaired episodes are spoilers.

[ILoveReading]

On 11/7/2017 at 8:40 AM, Katy M said:

I might not have hated it so much if Glass hadn't insisted on changing Dean's musical taste to make him like one of his daughter's favorite songs. That right it is exactly what is wrong with the writers we have. Lol canon and characterizations based on whatever whim floats their boat at any particular moment. That was a major tick off moment for me

I also remember Jensen saying that they actually had to go back and refilm that scene because Glass wanted to add it in.  From the sounds off it, Jensen wasn't thrilled with that scene either.

For, episodes that get lots of buzz that I don't like are first and formost, Swan Song.  Then Red Meat.  I hated that ep with a passion.  The way it glamourized Dean killing himself for Sam should be a big no no, not to mention Sam out-sued every Mary Sue ever written. 

Just My Imagination.  I don't get the praise for it. 

Fan Fiction- I disliked that we lost demon Dean because of it.

Death Door- for the reason mentioned above.  I was so over Bobby at that point.  The episode itself wasn't bad but it didn't resonate with me for that reason and the fact that I knew he'd be back.  I didn't buy that abominable snowman story Jim was spinning.  I knew he was filming Supernatural.

This might be unpopular but I didnt like The Werther Project.  I liked Dean's scenes with Benny, and that he fought his way out of the mist, but it had too much of a Point of No Return feel for me.  The reasons why I feel this way belong more in Jerk/Bitch so I won't go into them here. 

That is another ep on my list, Point of No Return. 

[DeeDee79]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This might be unpopular but I didnt like The Werther Project.

It surprises me that this could be considered an unpopular opinion. This episode was very boring and after it became evident that we weren't seeing actual Benny that one bright spot was gone for me.

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It got me wondering: Does Sam know what Dean tried to do in his attempt to get Death's help in retrieving Sam's soul? I know he knows what Death did - but was it ever revealed to Sam that Dean literally killed himself for Sam? And how does that knowledge - or lack thereof - put another spin on Sam's The Purge speech that Dean is always will to sacrifice as long as he's not the one getting hurt? I know - that's for another thread - but the question itself interests me. Did he know?

I think he might.  They mentioned Dr. Robert a few episodes later, and Sam said he worked out of wherever he worked out of. He would have no way of knowing that, I don't think, without Dean telling him.  And, I don't know why or how Dean would have told him that without telling him why he would have gone to see him.  

[gonzosgirrl]

37 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think he might.  They mentioned Dr. Robert a few episodes later, and Sam said he worked out of wherever he worked out of. He would have no way of knowing that, I don't think, without Dean telling him.  And, I don't know why or how Dean would have told him that without telling him why he would have gone to see him.  

I had forgotten Dr. Robert had ever been mentioned again, so I went and looked at the transcripts. It's in 6.14  Mannequin 3: The Reckoning. At the beginning of Appointment in Samarra, when Dean goes to Dr. Robert, it's clear they've never met before, but the doctor knew John, and he knew enough about the boys to be surprised that the letter Dean gave him 'just in case' was addressed to Ben and not his brother, Sam. This is the exchange in 6.14

Quote

 

SAM And then what? Leave her in a tub of ice with a phone taped to her hand? 

DEAN Maybe we should call Dr. Robert. Might have some leads on some non-haunted, black-market replacement kidneys.

SAM He works out of a butcher shop.

DEAN It's pretty clean. You'd be surprised.

 

It's kind of ambiguous whether Sam knew of the doctor because Dean told him what he'd done, or if he knew of him the same way Dean did - from John or John's journal. I kind of hope Dean didn't tell him, because that just makes Sam's harsh words in The Purge even more cruel.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's kind of ambiguous whether Sam knew of the doctor because Dean told him what he'd done, or if he knew of him the same way Dean did - from John or John's journal.

Sam knew Dean did something, though exactly what Dean told him I don't think is clear. We know Sam knows Dean did something because of what he says in "Mannequin 3..."

Quote

Sam: And I have a soul because of you. I never thanked you for that, did I?
Dean: That's all good, man.
Sam: Well, thanks.

I'm not sure that Sam knows exactly what Dean did to get Death to retrieve his soul though.

[FlickChick]

16 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam knew Dean did something, though exactly what Dean told him I don't think is clear. We know Sam knows Dean did something because of what he says in "Mannequin 3..."

I'm not sure that Sam knows exactly what Dean did to get Death to retrieve his soul though.

I don't think it has ever been stated in canon. Sam knows that Dean "had leverage" to get his soul back. Later, they both summoned Death with Bobby, so perhaps Sam thinks that Dean did that to speak to Death. But you would think that Sam could put two and two together that Dean spoke with Death and also knows about Dr. Robert's "pretty clean" room and come to the conclusion that Dean may have gone to Dr. Robert for his expertise.

[Wayward Son]

On 18 February 2015 at 6:53 PM, catrox14 said:

Thinking back to the episode when Dean told Cas he'd have to smite him or whatever IMO that is why Dean gave Cas the Blade. He had to lie to Crowley to get the Blade but not because he's afraid of Crowley but to get it into Cas' hand.

 

I think Cas has come to terms with having to be the one that kills Dean if need be because Dean won't ask that of Sam and I'm not sure Sam could do it anyway. I think that was the weird look on Dean's face when he gave Cas that little pat on his shoulder;  Dean acknowledging IMO the tacit agreement that Cas will do the deed if the time comes. 

 

 

I thought the Blade was indestructible which is why Cain threw it in the Mariana trench.

Could Cas even have killed Dean? I don't mean in the "can he kill his best friend sense", but could he have physically killed Dean using the blade? I thought the first blade and the mark of Cain were intimately linked so the first blade would be the same as any other blade in Castiel's hand?

 

I know the whole thing is moot now since we've seen Dean freed from the mark without that being required, but I sometimes like to speculate on what ifs haha. 

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Could Cas even have killed Dean? I don't mean in the "can he kill his best friend sense", but could he have physically killed Dean using the blade? I thought the first blade and the mark of Cain were intimately linked so the first blade would be the same as any other blade in Castiel's hand?

 

I know the whole thing is moot now since we've seen Dean freed from the mark without that being required, but I sometimes like to speculate on what ifs haha. 

  Cas most likely could not have killed Dean with the First Blade unless he found a way to do it without the Mark. Cas could have tried to smite him with his angel power or maybe even banish him somewhere else.  ut he could over power him long enough to slow him down  from being a demon.

Man missed opportunity to have Cas take on the Mark and and it could have been a heartbreaking MoC Dean vs Cas battle.

[DittyDotDot]

15 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Could Cas even have killed Dean? I don't mean in the "can he kill his best friend sense", but could he have physically killed Dean using the blade? I thought the first blade and the mark of Cain were intimately linked so the first blade would be the same as any other blade in Castiel's hand?

 

I know the whole thing is moot now since we've seen Dean freed from the mark without that being required, but I sometimes like to speculate on what ifs haha. 

Yeah, I believe the First Blade needs a Mark wearer for it to work--don't get me started on the nonsense behind that, though. So, as long as Dean had the Mark, Cass probably couldn't have killed Dean with the First Blade. Or, should I say, the First Blade would've killed non-demon Dean--as it probably would kill any human simply due to the stab wound--but the Mark would've brought him back, just as something not as friendly.

[catrox14]

Here's a question. Did Dean ever spend a minute in the Empty since he died and resurrected as a demon? Like was he already partially a demon before he died given the Mark seemed to be turning him back into a demon after he was cured in s10. And maybe he just doesn't remember? 
Hmmm....

How did Cas get out of the Empty in his previous deaths if Guck has no pull in the Empty? Did Guck  just rebuild a brand new Cas  who looks like Jimmy and his previous iterations are in the Empty? Did Chuck just never let Cas get to the Empty until this particular death? Why was this death one that Chuck allowed to stand?  

Does Chuck even know about the Empty? Or is it a separate space that Death created and the Empty works for Death?

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How did Cas get out of the Empty in his previous deaths if Guck has no pull in the Empty? Did Guck  just rebuild a brand new Cas  who looks like Jimmy and his previous iterations are in the Empty? Did Chuck just never let Cas get to the Empty until this particular death? Why was this death one that Chuck allowed to stand?  

I've decided Death probably had standing orders from God concerning Cass--and Sam and Dean--but, with Death gone, those orders are probably null and void now. So, yeah, I'd guess Cass was never in The Empty previously. And, I'd imagine Billie had no qualms sending the angel who killed her to the Empty despite her now seeing the bigger picture.

[MysteryGuest]

Bringing the conversation over from War of the Worlds...I honestly never thought Dean had that much of a relationship with Michael to warrant a redux of season 5.  He had one conversation with him, and considered saying "yes" for a hot minute, and that's about it.  And the Michael from the AU has even less connection to Dean.  I think if they were going to try to make a connection to Michael, they'd have done something else with Michael's Lance last season.  I suppose it could show up again this season, but it would seem contrived to me at this point.

I'm all for Jensen getting a chance to sink his teeth into some interesting characterization, but for me personally, Michael is not that character.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 but it would seem contrived to me at this point.

That hasn`t stopped them for dragging Lucifer back roughly a million times. 

I agree that right now AU!Michael is a blank, uninteresting slate. Which is disappointing but he could still be fixed IMO. Just give him a backstory and some motivation beyond "thug". 

Then I`d totally disagree that the Michael-Dean connection wouldn`t warrant a second go. It didn`t even really have a first go so for me it would be something fresh and a correction of a big misstep. Basically, see above with Lucifer, now I want MY pound of flesh. :)  

Quote

I think if they were going to try to make a connection to Michael, they'd have done something else with Michael's Lance last season.

 Don`t remind me. Must.surpress.seething.hatred. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DeeDee79]

38 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That hasn`t stopped them for dragging Lucifer back roughly a million times. 

Exactly!

38 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 Don`t remind me. Must.surpress.seething.hatred. 

Ugh...same here.

[Pondlass1]

I'd just like Jensen to sink his talented teeth into something meaty.  Purgatory Dean and Demon Dean were both hits despite only lasting a New York minute.  Lucifer is a complete yawn (writing not MP) and AU Michael hohum so far.

Even if it's just a couple of episodes I'd love me some Dean/Michael action.  It'd be a shot in the arm for the show.

How they'll achieve this I don't know... Just don't let the NepDuo write the SL or there'll be evil twins, torture and every dead person resurrected with a leg spell!!

[shoetingstar]

@catrox14 here's what I was saying about why Lisa was brought back for Dream A Little Dream (her second appearance):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_a_Little_Dream_of_Me_(Supernatural)

Quote

Dean encounters his love-interest Lisa within his dream. The writers wrote the character into the script just days before filming after they were unable to clear the rights to feature fictional serial killer Jason Voorhees.

Quote

Other planned dream sequences were drastically altered due to production issues. One such scene, made to look like 80's-style film stock, had Dean being confronted by serial killer Jason Voorhees of the Friday the 13th film series.[5] After production cleared the rights to use the character,[6] Kripke made everyone view Friday the 13th: The Final Chapter to help them create the "perfect facsimile" of Jason. However, the film studio that had granted permission realized a few days before filming that it did not actually own the rights. In dire need of a new concept, the writers recalled Sam's dream sequence with Bela; since Sam is revealed to be a "horn dog" underneath, the writers wanted Dean to be the opposite. Dean secretly desires a normal family, so they had Cindy Sampson reprise her role as Lisa Braeden—Dean's love interest from "The Kids are Alright". On retrospect, Kripke preferred this scene over Jason because it is more illuminating of Dean's character.[5]

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

@catrox14 here's what I was saying about why Lisa was brought back for Dream A Little Dream (her second appearance):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_a_Little_Dream_of_Me_(Supernatural)

WOW. HOLY CRAP. I never knew that. 

[DittyDotDot]

There's been some discussion of it in the Dream A Little Dream of Me thread:

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

WOW. HOLY CRAP. I never knew that. 

I didn't either. Thanks for the link @shoetingstar!

[MysteryGuest]

I definitely prefer Lisa to Jason.  I actually liked the character of Lisa, but I do agree that Dean's feelings for her sort of popped up out of thin air.  They certainly could have done a better job creating a back story for them other than "bendiest weekend", but my guess is when that episode aired, they had no idea that they'd have Dean living the domestic life a few years later.  

As for Cassie, I didn't dislike her, but I don't think she had much interest in continuing the relationship with Dean.  

[gonzosgirrl]

47 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I definitely prefer Lisa to Jason.  I actually liked the character of Lisa, but I do agree that Dean's feelings for her sort of popped up out of thin air.  They certainly could have done a better job creating a back story for them other than "bendiest weekend", but my guess is when that episode aired, they had no idea that they'd have Dean living the domestic life a few years later.  

As for Cassie, I didn't dislike her, but I don't think she had much interest in continuing the relationship with Dean.  

I had no idea about the Jason thing either, so thank you @shoetingstar

I think Dean's feelings for Lisa were more about Dean's feelings for Lisa and Ben as a family unit, even if Ben wasn't part of the dream sequence. Same with him eventually going to her in S5 (both times). I know it's not canon, and in fact was addressed in canon, but I'll always feel like we were supposed to believe Ben actually was his son.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know it's not canon, and in fact was addressed in canon, but I'll always feel like we were supposed to believe Ben actually was his son

I've never thought that. I've thought it was meant for the audience to think that he is definitely NOT Dean's kid. Once Dean moved in with her and acted as a step parent, what would be the point of Lisa continuing the lie?  I will lose my shit if they ever retcon it to Ben being his kid.

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've never thought that. I've thought it was meant for the audience to think that he is definitely NOT Dean's kid. Once Dean moved in with her and acted as a step parent, what would be the point of Lisa continuing the lie?  I will lose my shit if they ever retcon it to Ben being his kid.

Not me. I'm team "BenIsDeansKid". The ONLY fly in that ointment is that Michael resurrected dead Adam than going after Ben. Ben, however, WAS young and maybe they thought less of a worthwhile vessel.  Not sure.  

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've never thought that. I've thought it was meant for the audience to think that he is definitely NOT Dean's kid. Once Dean moved in with her and acted as a step parent, what would be the point of Lisa continuing the lie?  I will lose my shit if they ever retcon it to Ben being his kid.

It's one of the few ret-cons I could accept. Why would she lie? Maybe to protect Ben, since she (presumably) knew the Winchesters' story at that point. It was only a year since he came to her - a year in which even Dean admitted he was still screwed up over Sam's 'death'. It's a story that could write itself if it ever came to needing some Winchester blood down the line.

Edited November 27, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Not me. I'm team "BenIsDeansKid". The ONLY fly in that ointment is that Michael resurrected dead Adam than going after Ben. Ben, however, WAS young and maybe they thought less of a worthwhile vessel.  Not sure.  

Lisa specifically says he was not Dean's kid--something about doing a blood test. Granted, she could've lied, but I don't why she would considering that she seemed like she would've liked Dean to be Ben's biological father. Lisa seemed like she was pretty open and honest about just about everything so I'm not sure I buy she would out and out lie to Dean about this, especially after they set up housekeeping together.

I actually prefer it that he's not Dean's kid. Them not being blood doesn't diminish what Ben was for Dean, IMO.

[shoetingstar]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I definitely prefer Lisa to Jason.  I actually liked the character of Lisa, but I do agree that Dean's feelings for her sort of popped up out of thin air.  They certainly could have done a better job creating a back story for them other than "bendiest weekend", but my guess is when that episode aired, they had no idea that they'd have Dean living the domestic life a few years later.  

As for Cassie, I didn't dislike her, but I don't think she had much interest in continuing the relationship with Dean.  

Cassie Robinson: This was a better good-bye than last time.

Dean Winchester: Yeah well, maybe this time it'll be a little less permanent.

Cassie Robinson: You know what? I'm a realist. I don't see much hope for us, Dean.

Dean Winchester: Well, I've seen stranger things happen. Helluva lot stranger.

Cassie Robinson: [smiling sadly] Good-bye, Dean.

Dean Winchester: I'll see you Cassie. I will.

I said this in the other thread but I think her hesitation should be more appreciated! It is certainly understandable given what she knew of Dean's lifestyle. It would be a Long-distance relationship. There's a lot overcome: I'm sure she planned for having a more tradional relationship as most people do, I'm sure she wondered where she would fit in Dean's lifestyle of chasing monsters, and finding his Dad was his priority, etc. (Lisa had the benefit of learning about Dean's job while he was saving her son's life. In that case, I would give him a shit ton of slack too.)

Earlier in the episode. Dean stated that he and Cassie would be working out their issues until they were 90 lol. More importantly, he promised to be in touch. The ball was in his court essentially. I think the writers left some hope open for a reason. But Kripke's embarrassment of the episode caused him to throw out the baby with bathwater.

Edited November 27, 2017 by shoetingstar

[shoetingstar]

39 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I had no idea about the Jason thing either, so thank you @shoetingstar

I think Dean's feelings for Lisa were more about Dean's feelings for Lisa and Ben as a family unit, even if Ben wasn't part of the dream sequence. Same with him eventually going to her in S5 (both times). I know it's not canon, and in fact was addressed in canon, but I'll always feel like we were supposed to believe Ben actually was his son.

Yes! I agree and it's totally what I've believed. The appeal of Lisa was Lisa+Ben, family unit, not Lisa alone. 

I'm firm that Ben is not his. But its really stupid to have him imitate Dean, unless they were making a point of Lisa pining over Dean and passing his likes to her son. That would be weird.And I don't remember that being the case and noticed that was dropped in future appearances.

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

Cassie Robinson: This was a better good-bye than last time.

Dean Winchester: Yeah well, maybe this time it'll be a little less permanent.

Cassie Robinson: You know what? I'm a realist. I don't see much hope for us, Dean.

Dean Winchester: Well, I've seen stranger things happen. Helluva lot stranger.

Cassie Robinson: [smiling sadly] Good-bye, Dean.

Dean Winchester: I'll see you Cassie. I will.

I said this in the other thread. I think her hesitatation is understandable given what she knew of Dean's lifestyle. It would be a Long-distance relationship. There's a lot overcome: I'm sure she planned for having a more tradional relationship as most people do, I'm sure she wondered where she would fit in Dean's lifestyle of chasing monsters, and finding his Dad was his priority, etc. (Lisa had the benefit of learning about Dean's job while he was saving her son's life. In that case, I would give him a shit ton of slack too.)

Earlier in the episode. Dean stated that he and Cassie would be working out their issues until they were 90 lol. More importantly, he promised to be in touch. The ball was in his court essentially. I think the writers left some hope open for a reason. But Kripke's embarrassment of the episode caused him to throw out the baby with bathwater.

Full disclosure, I would much rather have seen Dean reunite with Cassie than Lisa. But all those reasons you listed in the bolded are the same reasons why I think Lisa might have lied about Ben's parentage. Substitute fighting the apocalypse for finding Dad in S5, and Dean's general mental state in S6, and there is a solid argument against telling hm. I'm not fighting canon - just saying if they did decide to retcon it one day, I could accept it.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

I said this in the other thread. I think her hesitatation is understandable given what she knew of Dean's lifestyle. It would be a Long-distance relationship. There's a lot overcome: I'm sure she planned for having a more tradional relationship as most people do, I'm sure she wondered where she would fit in Dean's lifestyle of chasing monsters, and finding his Dad was his priority, etc. (Lisa had the benefit of learning about Dean's job while he was saving her son's life. In that case, I would give him a shit ton of slack too.)

Earlier in the episode. Dean stated that he and Cassie would be working out their issues until they were 90 lol. More importantly, he promised to be in touch. The ball was in his court essentially. I think the writers left some hope open for a reason. But Kripke's embarrassment of the episode caused him to throw out the baby with bathwater.

Oh, I don't know, my impression of Cassie and Dean was that Dean was more into Cassie than Cassie was into Dean. Don't get me wrong, I think she liked him, but just didn't see them making it work long-term. Something in their post-coital talk--something about things working out when you really want them to--I don't remember the exact dialogue, but my impression was Cassie just wasn't all interested in making it work. 

1 minute ago, shoetingstar said:

But its really stupid to have him imitate Dean, unless they were making a point of Lisa pining over Dean and passing his likes to her son. 

Lisa said Ben's father was some biker she met in a bar...that she had a type. I think we're supposed to think that Ben's tastes are probably Lisa's tastes.

I never got the impression we were supposed to believe Ben was actually Dean's kid, but were supposed to think Dean may have thought it for a hot minute before Lisa disabuses him of that notion.

[shoetingstar]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Full disclosure, I would much rather have seen Dean reunite with Cassie than Lisa. But all those reasons you listed in the bolded are the same reasons why I think Lisa might have lied about Ben's parentage. Substitute fighting the apocalypse for finding Dad in S5, and Dean's general mental state in S6, and there is a solid argument against telling hm. I'm not fighting canon - just saying if they did decide to retcon it one day, I could accept it.

That's an interesting take on it. Did she ever know the details of them wanting Dean as Michael's vessel, etc? 

Funny,  I just realized I had a fanfic I started writing that had a similar dilemma, keeping Deans child a secret to him because of him being a hunter, etc. (Original Character). Then I kind of hated where it was going and started over lol. The irony!

[shoetingstar]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I don't know, my impression of Cassie and Dean was that Dean was more into Cassie than Cassie was into Dean. Don't get me wrong, I think she liked him, but just didn't see them making it work long-term. Something in their post-coital talk--something about things working out when you really want them to--I don't remember the exact dialogue, but my impression was Cassie just wasn't all interested in making it work. 

Lisa said Ben's father was some biker she met in a bar...that she had a type. I think we're supposed to think that Ben's tastes are probably Lisa's tastes.

I never got the impression we were supposed to believe Ben was actually Dean's kid, but were supposed to think Dean may have thought it for a hot minute before Lisa disabuses him of that notion.

I can see where it may look that way. But even if he liked her more, she had "planned a future" with him, so there was enough to bind them. I lean more toward their differences getting in the way of their potential. She lives by facts and Dean couldn't offer any guarantees for what their future could be or even what it would look like. He had no hunter/civilian relationship examples to pull from or whatever relationship skill it took to overcome her doubts. 

[gonzosgirrl]

53 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

That's an interesting take on it. Did she ever know the details of them wanting Dean as Michael's vessel, etc? 

Funny,  I just realized I had a fanfic I started writing that had a similar dilemma, keeping Deans child a secret to him because of him being a hunter, etc. (Original Character). Then I kind of hated where it was going and started over lol. The irony!

I'm a believer in 'if it didn't happen on screen, it's not canon', and Dean didn't tell her he was on his way to say yes to Michael in 5x17. That said, I have to believe he told her everything after arriving on her doorstep in 5x22. Her reactions to Sam's return, the fact he took them to Bobby's and they talked about Sam being in Hell when they knew she would be able to hear, etc., all convince me she knew the whole story. And Dean himself said he was a mess for most of the time Sam was gone. All good reasons for her to keep her secret until she felt sure the past really was behind him. Which of course it wasn't.

[SueB]

One of the few ways the show has grown ‘long in the tooth’ IMO has been the relegation of Angels and Demons to minion-class and often comedy (especially demons).  So, while this last episode had the same issues here, I appreciate that in the two demon/Brothers fight sequences, the demons are tougher these days.  Same with Angels.  I realize that this is the fight coordinator’s doing but I still appreciate it. 

BTW: My head canon for why we are seeing ‘minion-class’ angels and demons is that:

1) Crowley wasn’t actually very strong.  It’s also canon he controlled who came up top side. My head canon is that the really powerful demons were either released when the Hell Gates opened at the end of S2, crushed by Lilith when she was consolidating power post Azazel (including those topside that were released at the end of S2), or left in Hell to prevent any attempts at a coup.  Crowley had weak minions because he only elevated those he felt were not a threat to him.  I think Asmodeus May change that if he ultimately secures his position by getting rid of Lucifer.  

2) Any Angel with real power was targeted and killed either in the Civil War of S6 or in the war on earth in S9.  All that’s left is mostly milquetoast. A strong authority figure with Heaven-accepted morals would find a ready-made flock waiting for a boss. 

[Pondlass1]

I don't really understand why angels and demons are corporeal in their celestial realms.  Well, I guess it's budget.  And why business suits?  Do we only see the North American branches of heaven and hell (or hell-asylum or whatever the hell they're supposed to be).

[SueB]

I would posit three in-story reasons for business suits:

- it’s subliminally authoritative,

- a ‘uniform’ that isn’t a uniform, and

- tied to a hierarchy structure more often than not

 

but I think it’s really a budget decision. 

[Aeryn13]

Bringing this over from "War of the Worlds" thread:

Quote

The door was not completely closed. He even told Sam earlier that He and Cassie would be working out their issues until they were 90. I think her realistic hesitation should be more appreciated.

That`s the thing. I felt that all the statements regarding a possible future came from him whereas hers was a rather definite statement of "I don`t see a future for us, I`m a realist". I saw no hesitation on her part. She had closure. The sex was a mixture of the situation and "a final time for old times sakes". When the episode ended, I was a bit cringy on Dean`s behalf because in their final scene Cassie`s character just seemed to scream "she is just not that into him (anymore)". And he didn`t seem to take the hint.

If he had sought her out again later in the show, I would have found it even more cringe-worthy. 

Now, don`t get me wrong, seeking out Lisa on his "my last year" tour because the sex had been good that one weekend wasn`t a shining moment either. But it made more sense to me that at the end of Season 5 he went to her than trying to find Cassie who I am 1000 % sure had completely moved on. 

Granted, the place I wanted Dean to be at the end of Season 5 was the motherfreaking cage instead of motherfreaking Adam 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

That`s the thing. I felt that all the statements regarding a possible future came from him whereas hers was a rather definite statement of "I don`t see a future for us, I`m a realist". I saw no hesitation on her part. She had closure. The sex was a mixture of the situation and "a final time for old times sakes". When the episode ended, I was a bit cringy on Dean`s behalf because in their final scene Cassie`s character just seemed to scream "she is just not that into him (anymore)". And he didn`t seem to take the hint.

I always felt she did a 180 between the sex scene and the final scene with no real reason.  Yeah, at the end she was unequivocal.  But, in bed after, she was all like "no excuses for either of us, if we want it to work out it will work out."  Yes, I'm aware that used quotes and paraphrased, but that's basically what she said. 

I think maybe seeing a ghost truck in "person" brought it home to her that she couldn't deal, but I disagree that she was trying to break it off with him the entire episode.

The problem with Lisa is that when she was first introduced they didn't know they wanted her as end game.  Otherwise they would have had a better reason then bendy.  I just wish maybe they had set up more of a foundation.  Have Dean run into Lisa early on Season 5, and then mention throughout the season how he's keeping up with her and Ben on the phone or whatever.  Because, without that, it seemed completely out of left field. 

But, I agree that Cassie would have been ridiculous also.  It was 4 years later.  She did say at the end she didn't see a future, and there would be zero reason for Dean to not think she was in a serious relationship with someone else.

[Wayward Son]

On 19 November 2015 at 5:50 AM, catrox14 said:

I see a bit with Sam but again, moreso with Dean. I feel like I'm watching them THINK about how to hunt. I can't explain it any other way. It's one thing for exposition but this is not the same. It's a subtle thing that I would ordinarily put down to poor writing or lazy acting but this is Jensen Fucking Ackles here.  I've noticed it in EVERY episode so I just can't believe it's not intentional. Not after 6 or 7 episodes. 

 

Since I don't think the show ever gave an in show explanation for the "off" behaviour you saw in Sam, Dean and Cas at the beginning of the season (is there something I'm forgetting?). Do you now put that down to bad acting choices from J2M, or do you no longer view the behaviour as off after subsequent viewings with hindsight?  

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Since I don't think the show ever gave an in show explanation for the "off" behaviour you saw in Sam, Dean and Cas at the beginning of the season (is there something I'm forgetting?). Do you now put that down to bad acting choices from J2M, or do you no longer view the behaviour as off after subsequent viewings with hindsight?  

Nope, not bad acting choices by any of them nor do I back track on thinking they were off. IMO, I think Dean was affected by Amara throughout s11, Sam was affected by the Lucifer visions through mid way and Cas was affected by the after effects of the dog spell which affected his self esteem. Cas had PTSD IMO which caused him to think he had to prove himself after Amara got into him and then he said Yes to Lucifer because of all those issues. 

[MysteryGuest]

Let's face it, a relationship with either Dean or Sam is a risky venture.  But I do think that Cassie was ok with their relationship coming to an and.  I don't think she had any visions of a future with Dean.

Lisa was a victim of bad writing and a bit of retconning, because I think she was originally supposed to only be in one episode as bendy girl, but then they ended up using her a few more times and turned her into someone more serious than their actual past indicated.  I liked the actress and thought she and Jensen had decent chemistry, so the relationship didn't bother me.  And I enjoyed seeing him with Ben.  I hated the mind erasures of both of them, but understand that a permanent girlfriend was never going to work on this show.  

[Wayward Son]

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

From Paint it Black:

DEAN: I got a question. How does someone, uh, like you end up, you know…?

SISTER MATHIAS: Cloistered away from the world? [Chuckles] Are you making fun of me, Agent Allman?

DEAN: No. No, No. I, Uh… I guess I’m just wondering how somebody quits one life for something completely different and – and then believe in it so much.

IMO that's more admiring than mocking. 

I didn’t say Dean was mocking. I said that IMO the show tends to send out the black and white message that “Casual sex = good, healthy and normal. Chastity = bad, repressive, unhealthy and questionable”. It’s overly preachy and insulting only the preaching is in the opposite direction from traditional preaching on this subject.

 

For instance later in the conversation you’re quoting her reason is given as. 

 

SISTER MATHIAS

Well [sighs] in my case, I felt I had no choice. My life had become painful.

There was hopelessness. I felt I had to find something larger than myself to focus on.

 

As I said IMO a chaste life be it in the “sex before marriage” sense or for religious reasons is consistently portrayed as a negative thing. Why couldn’t Suzy have simply been one of those women who want to save the intimacy of sex for marriage? Why did it have to be portrayed as something repressive and wrong? Why couldn’t Sister Matthias have simply been a woman of faith who wanted to live her life by it? Why did it have to be simply because she felt she had no choice. Allowing depictions of people who chose to live a celibate life for legitimate personal reasons isn’t going to suddenly devalue the life choices of those who don’t choose to be celibate. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I didn’t say Dean was mocking. I said that IMO the show tends to send out the black and white message that “Casual sex = good, healthy and normal. Chastity = bad, repressive, unhealthy and questionable”. It’s overly preachy and insulting only the preaching is in the opposite direction from traditional preaching on this subject.

For instance later in the conversation you’re quoting her reason is given as. 

SISTER MATHIAS

Well [sighs] in my case, I felt I had no choice. My life had become painful.

There was hopelessness. I felt I had to find something larger than myself to focus on.

As I said IMO a chaste life be it in the “sex before marriage” sense or for religious reasons is consistently portrayed as a negative thing. Why couldn’t Suzy have simply been one of those women who want to save the intimacy of sex for marriage? Why did it have to be portrayed as something repressive and wrong? Why couldn’t Sister Matthias have simply been a woman of faith who wanted to live her life by it? Why did it have to be simply because she felt she had no choice. Allowing depictions of people who chose to live a celibate life for legitimate personal reasons isn’t going to suddenly devalue the life choices of those who don’t choose to be celibate. 

IMO the quote I gave was the opposite of "chastity=bad."  And as for Suzy wanting to "save the intimacy of sex for marriage," again, no one is forcing her to do anything she didn't want to do.  You're making it sound like Dean pursued and coerced her to give up deeply-held beliefs.  I do think the other women there were cliches, but IA with @catrox14 that they were showing the hypocrisy of "born again virgins," not those who truly believe and choose it deliberately.  Just because they don't promote chastity doesn't mean they're against it.  The few times it's come up in the show, IMO they've all been pretty respectful.   Dean was, I think, awed (and impressed) about Nancy's choice in Jus in Bello, and (as I quoted above), was impressed by Sister Matthias's choice--no matter how (or why) she chose her path. 

IMO SPN is a lot less "preachy" and black and white about casual sex than 90% of all shows on TV (and 100% of all CW shows.)  This show at least gives women the benefit of intelligence and making their own choices, as opposed to beautiful bimbos (no matter what their "jobs" might be--brain surgeon or neuroscientist) who wear skin-tight clothing at all times and who are judged by how sexy they are.  So IA that there's way too much emphasis on casual sex as the norm in TV in general, but I disagree that SPN is even particularly bad about it.  

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Dean was, I think, awed (and impressed) about Nancy's choice in Jus in Bello

Great example! I had forgotten about that.

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IMO the quote I gave was the opposite of "chastity=bad."  And as for Suzy wanting to "save the intimacy of sex for marriage," again, no one is forcing her to do anything she didn't want to do.  You're making it sound like Dean pursued and coerced her to give up deeply-held beliefs.  I do think the other women there were cliches, but IA with @catrox14 that they were showing the hypocrisy of "born again virgins," not those who truly believe and choose it deliberately.  Just because they don't promote chastity doesn't mean they're against it.  The few times it's come up in the show, IMO they've all been pretty respectful.   Dean was, I think, awed (and impressed) about Nancy's choice in Jus in Bello, and (as I quoted above), was impressed by Sister Matthias's choice--no matter how (or why) she chose her path. 

IMO SPN is a lot less "preachy" and black and white about casual sex than 90% of all shows on TV (and 100% of all CW shows.)  This show at least gives women the benefit of intelligence and making their own choices, as opposed to beautiful bimbos (no matter what their "jobs" might be--brain surgeon or neuroscientist) who wear skin-tight clothing at all times and who are judged by how sexy they are.  So IA that there's way too much emphasis on casual sex as the norm in TV in general, but I disagree that SPN is even particularly bad about it.  

Again, this isn’t about the characters reaction to it. This is about the shows overall depiction of chastity and the reasons people choose to live such a lifestyle. I’ll agree that Nancy was a great example of someone who chose that lifestyle because she felt it was best for her. However, since that was ten years ago and under a completely different set of writers it doesn’t make me feel any more charitable to the shows current attitude towards it.

 

As I said in recent years we have been given Suzy who only turned to celibacy due to shame and self-loathing. Then when someone makes her feel better about herself she turns away from it again. While with Sister Matthias it was something she simply did as a last resort because everything got too much. Now if they were to counterbalance these examples with people more like Nancy who chose that lifestyle because they felt it was best for them rather than it being a result of shame, self-loathing or escapism then I’d find it tolerable, but since they don’t I find it overly preachy.

 

And it’s this negative attitude towards celibacy that makes me think 

S13 spoilers 

Spoiler

That if Danneel’s character Sister Jo indeed a Catholic Nun they’ll best case scenario make it something negative and worst case scenario she’ll end up sleeping with Dean and realising this is no longer the life she wants for herself. 

[ahrtee]

To be fair, they've never shown Dean (or anyone) making a pass at a nun, much less talking anyone out of changing their mind about celibacy.  They've never even shown Dean making a pass at a married woman (knowingly, anyway...)  They have their own sort of morality, which is pretty strong, even if it doesn't have all the parts you want them to include. 

And again, I don't see it as a negative attitude towards celibacy.  But YMMV, and we can just agree to disagree.  

[catrox14]

SUPERNATURAL: Behind the Scenes With Set Design and the Impala

December 6, 2017 By Clarissa

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2017/12/06/supernatural-behind-the-scenes-with-production-the-impala/?slide=17

Photo gallery.

[FlickChick]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

SUPERNATURAL: Behind the Scenes With Set Design and the Impala

December 6, 2017 By Clarissa

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2017/12/06/supernatural-behind-the-scenes-with-production-the-impala/?slide=17

Photo gallery.

Thanks so much - really enjoyed this!