All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, auntvi said:

It would be interesting to see if her $$ per episode is anywhere in the neighborhood of the regulars' salaries.

I'll let it go now......

I would assume not, at least in the case of Misha and Mark, for the simple fact I'd imagine Misha and Mark have negotiated multiple pay rises as they've renewed their contracts. I'm not so sure about Mark Pellegrino because he was only promoted this year.

[Diane]

Watching Exile On Main Street today and  it is so obvious that something is off with Sam, I remember when I watched it the first time, not seeing he was just so off.  Jared really did a good job.

[Reganne]

35 minutes ago, Diane said:

Watching Exile On Main Street today and  it is so obvious that something is off with Sam, I remember when I watched it the first time, not seeing he was just so off.  Jared really did a good job.

I noticed it too.  The first time I watched it, I was worried that they had changed Sam's character peranently because of his time in hell and that would be the reason they would give to the change.  I was glad when Cass revealed he didn't have his soul.  Then I knew it was temporary and I could enjoy it more.  Lol

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From the speculation thread:

2 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

He didn't know he was working for them. Sam hid where he got the cases from. The only time he'd been to their base was when he rushed(so very slowly) to save Mary.

I think you are getting your facts confused.  Sam agreed to work with the BMoL at the end of The Raid (12.14) at the end of the next episode, Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell (12.15), Sam confessed to Dean that he'd been getting cases from the BMoL.  That's when Dean also agreed to work with them.   So for the past Five (5)  episodes, Dean has knowingly been accepting cases from the BMoL, and even 'reported in'.  At the end of The Memory Remains, 12.18, they called Mick, who was already dead, and spoke with Sketch, and said:

Quote

Dean: So now we're reporting to low rent Christian Bale? Seriously? I don't like that guy. He creeps me out.

Well, if he creeped Dean out so much, why hasn't Dean followed up on that instinct?  

As far as when Dean was at the base, as @auntvi said, Dean was there at the beginning of Ladies Drink Free (12.16)

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand why the onus should be on Dean to do more research into a group that had already shown their shitty hand. 

Well, if he wants vindication (and that's a big IF, because I think it's some Dean Fans who want vindication on his behalf, not necessarily Dean who wants or even needs that vindication), you (the universal "You") don't deserve vindication for having an instinct on which you never follow through.  Let's say I had bad feeling about stocks crashing - but I decided to trust the 'experts' that the market was fine and didn't cash in my stocks.  So when the market crashed and I lost all my money, is it the 'experts' fault?  No, it's mine, because I should have listened to my own instinct and followed through.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Let's say I had bad feeling about stocks crashing - but I decided to trust the 'experts' that the market was fine and didn't cash in my stocks.  So when the market crashed and I lost all my money, is it the 'experts' fault?  No, it's mine, because I should have listened to my own instinct and followed through.  

In your analogy did the experts torture you and then try to kill you and your sibling? 

Dean flat out said "NO, these people are bad news because they tortured Sam and tried to kill us".  What other reasons should Dean  have to come up with to justify that 100% reasonable and valid reason for not working with them? He doesn't need any other reasons.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

In your analogy did the experts torture you and then try to kill you and your sibling? 

Dean flat out said "NO, these people are bad news because they tortured Sam and tried to kill us".  What other reasons should Dean  have to come up with to justify that 100% reasonable and valid reason for not working with them? He doesn't need any other reasons.

Well, they might have figuratively killed off a company or two, does that count? ;)  But anyway, it doesn't matter.  Dean still agreed to work with them in the end.  Just like in my stock analogy, I still decided not to cash out my stocks.  Which made me lose my money.  And that's on me.  No one else.  Dean agreed to work with the BMoL.  Regardless of his instincts or valid reasons (and I'm not debating that he had good reasons not to work with them.  Fwiw, I don't think Sam really had a good enough reason to agree to work with them either, but it is what it is) he still agreed to work with them.  So where does this earn him any validation for not wanting to work with them in the first place even though he actually did work with them in the end?  Imo, it doesn't.    

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, they might have figuratively killed off a company or two, does that count? ;)  But anyway, it doesn't matter.  Dean still agreed to work with them in the end.  Just like in my stock analogy, I still decided not to cash out my stocks.  Which made me lose my money.  And that's on me.  No one else.  Dean agreed to work with the BMoL.  Regardless of his instincts or valid reasons (and I'm not debating that he had good reasons not to work with them.  Fwiw, I don't think Sam really had a good enough reason to agree to work with them either, but it is what it is) he still agreed to work with them.  So where does this earn him any validation for not wanting to work with them in the first place even though he actually did work with them in the end?  Imo, it doesn't.    

 

It's not remotely the same thing unless your sibling was held against their will and tortured and told to invest or else and then said sibling still decided to join the people who tortured him/her after finding out your mother went to work from them without consideration of your sibling's and your own deaths pending. If you joined solely to make a ton of money without the knowledge that they did those things to your sibling then that's on you. If you joined because you felt you had to to make sure your sibling was okay or to maintain a connection to them, then yes, I think you'd deserve some validation that your reluctance was well founded.

Regardless, I've never said it had to be vindication. I'm looking for Dean to have some validation of his emotions and thoughts. But at this point I'll just agree to disagree on this one. 

[Idahoforspn]

18 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

From the speculation thread:

I think you are getting your facts confused.  Sam agreed to work with the BMoL at the end of The Raid (12.14) at the end of the next episode, Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell (12.15), Sam confessed to Dean that he'd been getting cases from the BMoL.  That's when Dean also agreed to work with them.   So for the past Five (5)  episodes, Dean has knowingly been accepting cases from the BMoL, and even 'reported in'.  At the end of The Memory Remains, 12.18, they called Mick, who was already dead, and spoke with Sketch, and said:

Well, if he creeped Dean out so much, why hasn't Dean followed up on that instinct?  

As far as when Dean was at the base, as @auntvi said, Dean was there at the beginning of Ladies Drink Free (12.16)

You just laid out the same time line I did. I gave it in reference to this discussion which I thought was originally about when Dean agreed to work with the BMOL and his reasons.  I correctly state that the only time Dean was at the BMoL base prior to agreeing to work with them was when he went to save Mary in the Raid.

This is what I wrote on that.  "The only time he'd been to their base was when he rushed(so very slowly) to save Mary."

It was after that post that auntvi wrote this

"He went to the base with Sam to meet with Mick to get specific info on werewolves in ep  16."

While this is a true statement, this visit to the base (as I stated in the next post) occurred after Dean agreed to work for them. Not before. 

18 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, if he wants vindication (and that's a big IF, because I think it's some Dean Fans who want vindication on his behalf, not necessarily Dean who wants or even needs that vindication), you (the universal "You") don't deserve vindication for having an instinct on which you never follow through.  Let's say I had bad feeling about stocks crashing - but I decided to trust the 'experts' that the market was fine and didn't cash in my stocks.  So when the market crashed and I lost all my money, is it the 'experts' fault?  No, it's mine, because I should have listened to my own instinct and followed through.  

I don't follow that. The "experts" arent my brother. To me that's a huge difference. Dean clearly states that he is willing to work with the Brits because of Sam when he says "if that's what you want". So how come it is so terrible that Dean fans might want a simple line that acknowledges Dean's gut instinct was right? We don't want an I told you so and we don't want Sam groveling. 

[Diane]

2 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

You just laid out the same time line I did. I gave it in reference to this discussion which I thought was originally about when Dean agreed to work with the BMOL and his reasons.  I correctly state that the only time Dean was at the BMoL base prior to agreeing to work with them was when he went to save Mary in the Raid.

This is what I wrote on that.  "The only time he'd been to their base was when he rushed(so very slowly) to save Mary."

It was after that post that auntvi wrote this

"He went to the base with Sam to meet with Mick to get specific info on werewolves in ep  16."

While this is a true statement, this visit to the base (as I stated in the next post) occurred after Dean agreed to work for them. Not before. 

I don't follow that. The "experts" arent my brother. To me that's a huge difference. Dean clearly states that he is willing to work with the Brits because of Sam when he says "if that's what you want". So how come it is so terrible that Dean fans might want a simple line that acknowledges Dean's gut instinct was right? We don't want an I told you so and we don't want Sam groveling. 

Because even Dean fans can see that his gut instinct was right. I'm a Dean fan and I still don't think that Dean needs to hear this, he isn't stupid, he will know without someone hitting him over the head with it. 

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, Diane said:

Because even Dean fans can see that his gut instinct was right. I'm a Dean fan and I still don't think that Dean needs to hear this, he isn't stupid, he will know without someone hitting him over the head with it. 

And why is your opinion of what Dean needs more valid than mine? Sorry but how about we just agree to disagree.

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It's not remotely the same thing unless your sibling was held against their will and tortured and told to invest or else and then said sibling still decided to join the people who tortured him/her after finding out your mother went to work from them without consideration of your sibling's and your own deaths pending. If you joined solely to make a ton of money without the knowledge that they did those things to your sibling then that's on you. If you joined because you felt you had to to make sure your sibling was okay or to maintain a connection to them, then yes, I think you'd deserve some validation that your reluctance was well founded.

But Dean didn't join to protect Sam and Mary, or to maintain a connection with them. He wasn't hunting with Mary before he starting working for the BMOL and he hasn't been hunting with her since, nor is there any indication that he thought working with the BMOL would make him more connected to her, as he and Sam are affiliated with the Brits in a much more limited way. Dean and Mary achieved some sort of rapprochement at the end of "The Raid," and it wasn't predicated on Dean's cooperation with the BMoL in the slightest.  

We haven't seen, IMO, any indication that Dean believed Sam or Mary were in danger from the BMoL and needed saving. Even assuming Dean was still skeptical about claims that Lady Toni was a rogue agent, the logical assumption would have been that Sam's agreeing to play nice with the MoL was the best way to take him off the hit list. And it isn't as if the Winchesters have been shy about working with people who have tried to kill them in the past.

Maybe if Dean had held firm, Sam would have given him a "my way or the highway" ultimatum. It is possible. But we don't know, because it didn't happen. This wasn't an "it is either Benny or me" situation. And even if Sam had said that he was going to continue taking BMoL cases either way, Dean joining up would still be on Dean. If, in a normal family, one brother wants to go to med school and one brother wants to go to law school, the fact that brother A might make the decision to go to law school instead in order to stay close to brother B doesn't give him a pass on the consequences of that decision. 

While Dean was obviously right not to trust the BMoL, it also isn't clear to me that there have been negative consequences of the decision to work together. The other American hunters refused, and that certainly isn't keeping them out of danger. If anything, the Winchesters agreeing to work with the BMoL delayed the moment of crisis. It is also important to remember that the BMoL could have gained access to the bunker at any time. So any negative consequences that come from them bugging the bunker is not a result of them working together. 

Plus, the cases the BMoL have sent Sam and Dean have been legit. In that respect, they have saved more people by working with them than they would have by staying totally solo. The only clear casualty of the alliance, so far, has been Mick.

[Diane]

30 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And why is your opinion of what Dean needs more valid than mine? Sorry but how about we just agree to disagree.

That is my point. Absolutely agree to disagree. 

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, Diane said:

That is my point. Absolutely agree to disagree. .

 

 

The problem is I say in about every post that I WOULD LIKE to see a simple statement by Sam and feel like I am being told I shouldn't want that because you don't agree. We can argue if it's needed but  telling me I shouldn't  want it. Nope. I have a  right to personally want to see something happen. So I am saying we have to agree to disagree.  I haven't told you that you should not want to see things play out the way you would like. Afford me the same courtesy please.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Friends.  

"Agree to disagree" is an excellent strategy and one we here on your mod team wholeheartedly endorse.  HOWEVER, this whole thing only works if you stop actually engaging with each other on the point.  

We are all allowed to like and want different things from the show.  We don't have to bend others to our will when they don't agree.  

[ILoveReading]

  When Sam agreed to join, he told Mick to give him time with Dean.  Sam didn't come clean right away.  Sam might not have came right out and said my way or the highway, but his words to Mick and his actions certainly supported this.  If he truly cared what Dean's feelings were on the matter, Sam would have come clean right from the start.  

He didn't.  He lied.  What makes it worse is that Sam saw how hurt and upset that Dean was when Mary did it, but that didn't deter him in the slightest from doing the exact same thing. It suggests that Sam doesn't care what Dean's feeling are on the matter.    Sam had an agenda, to get Dean around to his way of thinking and he did that by having Dean work with with them without Dean's knowledge for several cases.

If I was supposed to see a Dean that was all gung ho about working for the Brits someone didn't give Jensen the memo.  He even tells Sam "If that is what you want.  His actions remind me of someone who is weary and resigned and just going along to keep the peace.  He knows Sam is stubborn, and he knows that any arguments he give will fall on deaf ears.   It's clear Dean doesn't trust them and wants nothing to do with them, but that didn't matter to Sam before he agreed to join so what would make Dean think that would matter to Sam afterward.

Yes, Dean could have refused but then he knows Sam isn't going to stop.  That he was going to keep working for them.  Then he'd be leaving Sam alone with these douchbags. At this point in the series, I don't need Dean to say the words, "I'm doing this to keep you safe Sam" because the show has made it more then clear this is Dean's top priority.    IMO, what Dean is doing here is trying to make the best of a bad situation.

During Ladies Drink Free, Dean is complaining about having to report for duty.  Sam's response is to  once again defend them.  So he clearly isn't listening to anything Dean  has to say. 

Honestly, Dean reminds me so much of someone who is just going through the motions, and just barely, at that.  If he really was on board as the show is trying to say than why is Dean suddenly making Sam do all the research, take the lead on comforting/questioning witnesses, come up with all the plans while he....well I'm not really sure what Dean has been doing all this time.  He's lost all his fight skills, and the ability to hold his weapon, if he even can figure out where the fight is or show more enthusiasm for burgers and waitresses (I don't mean that in a bitch/jerk kind of way just an explanation.)

The one time Dean, managed to look alive during a hunt was the one that had nothing to do with the Brits.

So while, that may not have been the writers intention its what took place on screen.

Edited May 10, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Idahoforspn]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

  When Sam agreed to join, he told Mick to give him time with Dean.  Sam didn't come clean right away.  Sam might not have came right out and said my way or the highway, but his words to Mick and his actions certainly supported this.  If he truly cared what Dean's feelings were on the matter, Sam would have come clean right from the start.  

He didn't.  He lied.  What makes it worse is that Sam saw how hurt and upset that Dean was when Mary did it, but that didn't deter him in the slightest from doing the exact same thing. It suggests that Sam doesn't care what Dean's feeling are on the matter.    Sam had an agenda, to get Dean around to his way of thinking and he did that by having Dean work with with them without Dean's knowledge for several cases.

If I was supposed to see a Dean that was all gung ho about working for the Brits someone didn't give Jensen the memo.  He even tells Sam "If that is what you want.  His actions remind me of someone who is weary and resigned and just going along to keep the peace.  He knows Sam is stubborn, and he knows that any arguments he give will fall on deaf ears.   It's clear Dean doesn't trust them and wants nothing to do with them, but that didn't matter to Sam before he agreed to join so what would make Dean think that would matter to Sam afterward.

Yes, Dean could have refused but then he knows Sam isn't going to stop.  That he was going to keep working for them.  Then he'd be leaving Sam alone with these douchbags.   IMO, what Dean is doing here is trying to make the best of a bad situation.

During Ladies Drink Free, Dean is complaining about having to report for duty.  Sam's response is to  once again defend them.  So he clearly isn't listening to anything Dean  has to say. 

Honestly, Dean reminds me so much of someone who is just going through the motions, and just barely, at that.  If he really was on board as the show is trying to say than why is Dean suddenly making Sam do all the research, take the lead on comforting/questioning witnesses, come up with all the plans while he....well I'm not really sure what Dean has been doing all this time.  He's lost all his fight skills, and the ability to hold his weapon, if he even can figure out where the fight is or show more enthusiasm for burgers and waitresses (I don't mean that in a bitch/jerk kind of way just an explanation.)

The one time Dean, managed to look alive during a hunt was the one that had nothing to do with the Brits.

So while, that may not have been the writers intention its what took place on screen.

Well said.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Regardless, I've never said it had to be vindication. I'm looking for Dean to have some validation of his emotions and thoughts. But at this point I'll just agree to disagree on this one. 

Let me tell you a tale of two brothers.  The older brother had an idealized vision of what the world should be and got involved a shady organization.  Under his influence, the younger brother reluctantly also got involved.  They did somethings they shouldn't have done, and even though the younger one knew they were wrong at the time, he (allegedly anyway) went along with it because of his brother.  In the end, people died.  Afterward, the younger brother was (apparently) very remorseful for his actions.  Now, if I'm interpreting this "Dean deserves validation for his reluctance in joining the BMoL" argument, (even though he did join up) then the younger brother in my tale also deserves validation of his emotions and thoughts for his initial reluctance  in joining up with this shady organization and remorse for the bad decisions, correct?  

11 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

You just laid out the same time line I did.

Apologies then.  I misunderstood you.  I was discussing the entire time which they have been working with the BMoL, starting with when Sam originally agreed to join up to the present - since at the present Dean is working with the BMoL and has full knowledge that he is doing so, regardless of his initial reluctance.  

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Plus, the cases the BMoL have sent Sam and Dean have been legit. In that respect, they have saved more people by working with them than they would have by staying totally solo. The only clear casualty of the alliance, so far, has been Mick.

Thank you.  And this is my point about why Dean agreed to work with them - and has continued to work with them.  

As such, IF (again a big IF) Dean deserves any validation of his emotions or initial instinct about not working with them because they are bad, bad, bad; then Sam also deserves validation about working with them because their methods of finding cases and disseminating information to hunters is more efficient than the way its been done previously (and that's why Sam decided to join up, imo).  For example, if Sam were to say, "Dean, you were right.  We never should have gotten involved with the BMoL.  They're bad news and that's not how we do things."  Then Dean should say, "No Sammy, you were right.  Their methods of communication and finding cases are better than ours.  I say we take what we learned from them and do it our way."

Edited May 10, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
added motivation for the older brother.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

If I was supposed to see a Dean that was all gung ho about working for the Brits someone didn't give Jensen the memo.  He even tells Sam "If that is what you want.  His actions remind me of someone who is weary and resigned and just going along to keep the peace.  He knows Sam is stubborn, and he knows that any arguments he give will fall on deaf ears.   It's clear Dean doesn't trust them and wants nothing to do with them, but that didn't matter to Sam before he agreed to join so what would make Dean think that would matter to Sam afterward.

Yes, Dean could have refused but then he knows Sam isn't going to stop.  That he was going to keep working for them.  Then he'd be leaving Sam alone with these douchbags. At this point in the series, I don't need Dean to say the words, "I'm doing this to keep you safe Sam" because the show has made it more then clear this is Dean's top priority.    IMO, what Dean is doing here is trying to make the best of a bad situation.

You don't have to be gung ho to be responsible for your actions.

Dean didn't even try to talk Sam out of it so we'll never know what would happen.  But, either way, you're responsible for your own actions, not those of your little brother.  Unless, of course, said little brother is 5, but that's not the case here.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

He didn't.  He lied.  What makes it worse is that Sam saw how hurt and upset that Dean was when Mary did it, but that didn't deter him in the slightest from doing the exact same thing. It suggests that Sam doesn't care what Dean's feeling are on the matter.    Sam had an agenda, to get Dean around to his way of thinking and he did that by having Dean work with with them without Dean's knowledge for several cases.

Which Sam acknowledged was wrong and apologized for. Dean accepted his apology and they both moved forward from that point together. 

58 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

If I was supposed to see a Dean that was all gung ho about working for the Brits someone didn't give Jensen the memo.  He even tells Sam "If that is what you want.  His actions remind me of someone who is weary and resigned and just going along to keep the peace.  He knows Sam is stubborn, and he knows that any arguments he give will fall on deaf ears.   It's clear Dean doesn't trust them and wants nothing to do with them, but that didn't matter to Sam before he agreed to join so what would make Dean think that would matter to Sam afterward.

Regardless of how Sam got him there--which was wrong, no doubt about it--for whatever reason, Dean made a conscious choice to work with the Brits. Doesn't mean Dean was gung ho about it, he went in with reservations, but he went in none the less. I think it makes Dean look rather foolish to not acknowledge his own responsibility for his choices.  

One of the things I really hated about S9 was how Dean kept ignoring his instincts about everything. It made him look really foolish, IMO. The difference for me here is that I didn't think Dean really felt all that strongly one way or the other about the Brits. I mean, I think his instincts told him they were sketchy, but I don't think they were screaming at him "DANGER, DEAN WINCHESTER, DANGER!" I think it was more of a, "Something's off about these guys, but I'm not sure exactly what it is yet--maybe they're just weird, but harmless" sort of thing.  

In S9, I felt like Dean was willfully ignoring the flashing red lights, but here I felt more like the light was yellow and Dean wasn't sure if it would turn red or green. He still proceeded into the intersection, but at least he proceeded with caution this time. 

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have had Dean--and Sam--be more proactive about the whole thing. At the very least I'd liked to have seen them doing some research on the organization or used the opportunity to get on the inside so they could better know who it was they were working for. It does neither of them any favors to have them be so clueless while we the audience know so much.

10 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

So how come it is so terrible that Dean fans might want a simple line that acknowledges Dean's gut instinct was right?

It's not terrible to want things, but don't we already know Dean's gut instinct was right? I mean, haven't we known the Brits were bad news from the start, so wouldn't a simple line like that be kinda stating the obvious? Not that the show hasn't ever done that before, though.

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

.well I'm not really sure what Dean has been doing all this time.

Who is this person on our screens and what have they done with the REAL Dean Winchester?  And why isn't Jensen speaking up about it?

[rue721]

I mean honestly, there are plenty of American hunters who said "no" to the BMOL. And I don't think the Winchesters need to go on an apology tour to validate all those hunters' feelings, let alone apologize to people (like Dean) who did actually join up.

And to be fair, I think joining was more naive than bad. They have been saving people. I just think that it's naive not to give a wide berth to an organization that brags about being kill-happy and that is filled with violent creeps. And that has tortured you -- "rogue" agent or no! (And I continue to be weirded out by Sam working with his torturers, but on a show where Lucifer is now billed as a lead, I guess I've just gotta let that go).

I think that Dean wasn't initially down for joining up with the BMOL because they had tortured Sam, since that's what he and Sam brought up to Mary when she finally came clean. But then Sam decided to join, so that argument didn't really hold any water anymore. I think that's why Dean was willing to join at that point, too. I think the thinking was, if Sam could work with his torturers, then who was Dean to make that ~a thing~?

To me, the more confusing thing is that Sam was apparently so impressed by that ridiculous Alpha Vampire raid that he actually was willing to join -- but that's just down to poor execution on the part of the show, I guess. I had no idea that the BMOL were supposed to be legitimately impressive, let alone that that disastrous raid was supposed to be legitimately impressive. But in retrospect, I guess it is and was!

[ILoveReading]

38 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean didn't even try to talk Sam out of it so we'll never know what would happen. 

I think Dean knew this was going to be like talking to a brick wall.  Sam's actions suggested he wasn't interested in Dean's opinion on the matter.  Plus, I feel that if Dean did try I feel like Sam would use the little brother default the show likes to pull out in these situations.  "You need to trust me." "Stop treating me like a little kid" "Stop being so bossy."

But since I feel like this is getting to close to bitch/jerk, I'll just agree to disagree.

Edited May 10, 2017 by ILoveReading

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

To me, the more confusing thing is that Sam was apparently so impressed by that ridiculous Alpha Vampire raid that he actually was willing to join -- but that's just down to poor execution on the part of the show, I guess. I had no idea that the BMOL were supposed to be legitimately impressive, let alone that that disastrous raid was supposed to be legitimately impressive. But in retrospect, I guess it is and was!

No, in even in retrospect, that disastrous vampire fight was not impressive!  Lol.  I mean, Sam knew they even had wrong intel on the alpha vamp, so I agree that it was confusing that he would then change his mind and decide that the way they were doing things was so much better and he wanted to be a part of that.  I guess I could understand that he might have been impressed by their technology,their research capacity, and their communication and organization methods (that is the way they organize hunts, so that there's not the redundancy of two hunters showing up to kill the same monster when one could be elsewhere dealing with another monster and saving other lives: not the Organization itself) - even if their intel was faulty.

[auntvi]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

To me, the more confusing thing is that Sam was apparently so impressed by that ridiculous Alpha Vampire raid that he actually was willing to join

That one drives me crazy. I've told myself that the rest of the explanation was accidentally cut from the script and no one noticed.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

No, in even in retrospect, that disastrous vampire fight was not impressive!  Lol.  I mean, Sam knew they even had wrong intel on the alpha vamp, so I agree that it was confusing that he would then change his mind and decide that the way they were doing things was so much better and he wanted to be a part of that.

::snort:: Maybe Sam wants to change his name to LOSEchester, but wants to really own it? ;)

Yeah, I don't get what was so impressive Sam would want to be a part of it either. I tell myself he was just distracted by the shiny toys and Mary's want to do something for them, but I'm not sure that still even makes sense. I'm finding it's easier to go with it then fight my way back upstream at this point, though. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I think Dean knew this was going to be like talking to a brick wall.  Sam's actions suggested he wasn't interested in Dean's opinion on the matter.  Plus, I feel that if Dean did try I feel like Sam would use the little brother default the show likes to pull out in these situations.  "You need to trust me." "Stop treating me like a little kid" "Stop being so bossy."

But since I feel like this is getting to close to bitch/jerk, I'll just agree to disagree.

Well, fine, then he should have just said no.  I'm sick of people (not talking about you, or even just Dean) using peer pressure as an excuse.  You are responsible for you. 

[companionenvy]

I still come back to the question of why working with the Brits in the limited way Sam and Dean are doing is or has been a bad thing so far. Basically, they are taking valid cases and then telling the MoL how the hunt went - unless they don't want the Brits to know something, in which case they keep it in the family. To the extent that they or other hunters are in danger from the BMoL, it is not from the alliance -- it is because the BMoL bugged the bunker (which they could have done at any time) and because the American hunters, Winchesters included, will not fall in line. 

I think the dumbest thing Sam and Dean have done is not secure the bunker once they realized the BMoL -- which they now know are beyond sketchy -- had an all-access pass. I also think that now, knowing what they know about the MoL, it would be criminally negligent of them to call for the Brits back-up on a case or bring any hunters not already on their radar to their attention. But acknowledging that the MoL are better at quickly finding cases and following up on their leads is not in itself a problem, and it would in fact be irresponsible to ignore a case because they don't like the BMoL. No matter who finds the case, if people need saving, people need saving.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

47 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, fine, then he should have just said no.  I'm sick of people (not talking about you, or even just Dean) using peer pressure as an excuse.  You are responsible for you. 

Exactly.  Even if Sam was stubborn, what Dean could have done was agree to work the cases with Sam, regardless of how he got them (from the BMoL or on his own) but put his foot down at reporting in.  He could have placed the entire burden for that on Sam, just like Sketch did with Mick and the "typie-typie".   What would Sam and/or Mick have done then?  Probably accepted that as the best they were going to get from Dean and gone along with it.  But we didn't see Dean do that - they were both reporting in together.   

Edited May 10, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
missed a conjunction-junction

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Brought over from Spoilers:

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

How about 'Thanks for supporting me even if you didn't believe in it, because I asked you to (and I've scorned you for not having any faith in me in the past)'. Does Dean deserve that?

Considering Dean didn't seem to mind making his own decision to work with the BMoL in Ladies Drink Free when they got to stay in a nice hotel and he went swimming, oh and thanks to the BMoL Claire was saved....I'd say no.  This isn't a Sam vs. Dean thing to me, but it looks like that's what you want to make it.  If so, just make sure you take it to the correct thread please.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Moved from Spoilers:

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think Sam would be groveling or debasing himself to acknowledge that Dean was right, and that he should have gone with his own first instincts about the BMOL.  I know it's something I would do with my siblings if I had tricked them into doing something they were on record not to want to do, and things went south in a big way.  

The thing is, if they had gone with Dean's first instincts about the BMoL - which was to not work with them - then Claire would be a werewolf and probably killed by another hunter by now.  She wasn't working with the BMoL.  She was hunting on her own and found that werewolf case.  Sam and Dean got the heads up about it from the BMoL.  It's very likely that they wouldn't have found it on their own, since it seemed like the bulk of their time spent not actively hunting was being devoted to finding Kelly.  Claire still would have been targeted by the werewolf, since other BMoL hunters had already killed off the rest of his pack and he was trying to make a new one.  So, if Sam and Dean hadn't been there - and had the resources of the BMoL - Claire wouldn't have been cured.  Now, some may not like Claire and think "no big deal" or even "good riddance", but Sam and Dean obviously care about her very much.  I imagine they would have felt very guilty when they found out about Claire, especially once they realized that had they been working with the BMoL, they could have been there to prevent it.    

Secondly, Sam may have tricked Dean into working with the BMoL initially, but Dean continued to work with them (and enjoy the benefits of an expense account) of his own free will.  

So far, things haven't gone south in a big way.  And even when they do - Claire, and a lot of others, were saved thanks to their involvement with the BMoL, so I don't think they would consider that a net loss.  

[Katy M]

17 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So far, things haven't gone south in a big way.  And even when they do - Claire, and a lot of others, were saved thanks to their involvement with the BMoL, so I don't think they would consider that a net loss.

Unless, their mom, Jodie, Claire, Alex, and Garth are all killed.  Have I forgotten anyone that is still alive?  Krissy and her friends, too.The Ghostfacers, too,  just for good measure, and not just Ed and Harry.  Maggie and Spruce, too.  I've created a real bloodbath.

[ILoveReading]

On 2017-05-10 at 10:14 AM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

because their methods of finding cases and disseminating information to hunters is more efficient than the way its been done previously

I disagree with this because who  are they passing the information too? Exactly what information are they passing?  Mary, Sam and Dean are the only American hunters willing to give them the time of day.   Mary has almost no contact with the brothers and the brother are always together. There is no one else for the Brits to talk to but each other.

So far all the Brits have really done is assign cases, cases that are nothing special and ones Sam and Dean would have been more than capable of finding on their own, if they were still looking.  They aren't doing anything Bobby, Ellen or John didn't do in the past.   They're not asking Sam and Dean to take out packs of werewolfs or Vampires or any other monster.  Just one at a time.  The Brits are not having Sam and Dean hunt the way they do, by hanging back and taking out large numbers.

As for Sam and Dean not changing they're hunting styles, they have in the fact that they don't look for their own cases anymore and are reporting for duty and making reports. Something they never did in the past.

The BMoLs might be able to find more cases but who exactly are they passing them off too besides the Winchesters?  Unless they brought over an whole bunch of their British Hunters or Mary and Ketch are doing the majority of the killing.  That to me, really isn't disseminating more information.  It's exactly how Sam and Dean do it.  Find a case investigate. 

They've done nothing special with American hunters.  American Hunters were always disorganized and mostly loners, from what we've seen.  They're still the exact same.

Given what we saw in The Raid, they're is also good reason to be suspect of any intel they provide. 

They may have done some good things, but they aren't nice people (with maybe the exception of Mick).  How many humans and mosters that didn't deserve it got in their crossfire.  They make kids kill other kids.  They wanted to kill another hunter over a tragic accident.  They want to eliminate all American Hunters for no other reason then they won't do things the Brits way.  They torture humans. 

Why do they want monsters gone?  I think its about control not saving lives.  If he was they would care more about collateral damage.  If they had a motto, I think it would be Controling things, hunting thing, my way or the highway business. 

What makes it bad for Sam and Dean to have worked with them is summed up easily for me.   They don't value human life. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

Neither of Sam nor Dean, knew the BMOL rolled in better hotels until the moment they got to the hotel. Sam was just as surprised as Dean at the perks. It's not like Sam said, "Hey, these bozos stay in 3 star hotels all the time" as part of a sales pitch to Dean and Dean was all yup, sign me up for the perks.  Even then I'd argue so what? Considering they were both nearly murdered by the BMOL along with Sam being tortured, it's really not some great hypocrisy that Dean took advantage of a perk, that Sam didn't know about either until it was presented to them.

As to the werewolf cure, I'm not giving the BMOL points for Claire being alive. It was a 50/50 chance the cure would kill her, since it was only tested on one human who suffered a painful death as a result of trying to use it.  Claire was 100% assured of being alive even if she hadn't used the cure. She'd be a werewolf but alive and well just like Garth.  Also, there is no guarantee that Claire is still alive and well, given that there is no certainty that the cure didn't end up killing her after she left. And now the BMOL are in negative points in my book because she is on their hit list.

ETA: What I'd like to know is if the BMOL got the data on Garth, Eileen, Claire from Dean and Sam's info in the LOL or if they had been collecting it all along. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I never said anything about hypocrisy, but now that you mention it...My point was that people who are purporting that Dean only joined up with the BMoL for Sam and Mary and that they all should have listened to Dean's instincts to stay away from the BMoL (and that Sam somehow owes him an apology for when they find out how bad the BMoL are) seem to be ignoring the fact that Dean hasn't minded having some of the perks.   Hey you can't cozy up with Al Quaeda as a woman for the protection they offer and then expect an apology for the burka.  The fact that Sam didn't know about those perks is irrelevant to whether or not he owes Dean some sort of apology.  Sam is the one who wanted to join and is neither owed an apology or 'deserves' one.

Sure, the cure only had a 50/50 shot of working - but Claire would have been 100% dead without it.   Claire would not have lived as a werewolf.  She said so herself.

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The BMoLs might be able to find more cases but who exactly are they passing them off too besides the Winchesters?  Unless they brought over an whole bunch of their British Hunters or Mary and Ketch are doing the majority of the killing.  That to me, really isn't disseminating more information.  It's exactly how Sam and Dean do it.  Find a case investigate. 

There was an entire squad that invaded the bunker.  Also we were told that they'd eliminated nearly every vamp nest in the Midwest.  I'm pretty sure Mary and Sketch didn't do all of those, so there are obviously other hunters working with them - whether other American hunters or their own, I don't know.

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I've created a real bloodbath.

Is this a wish list then?  ;)

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Is this a wish list then?  ;)

No, I like everybody that's still alive. 

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sure, the cure only had a 50/50 shot of working - but Claire would have been 100% dead without it.   Claire would not have lived as a werewolf.  She said so herself.

Given what we've seen of Claire's hunting skills I think its only a matter of time.   They also still want Claire dead, so she's not out of the woods, and that hunt put her on their radar since her name would have been in Mick's report.

Without Samuel Campbell Dean would have been a vampire.  Doesn't make Samuel a good person.

As for enjoying the perks, that seemed to be a one time thing that they got because Mick tagged along.    From what we've seen there is no evidence Sam and Dean are using the Brits technology or gadgets.  I wouldn't exactly say they're enjoying themselves and all the Brits have to provide. 

Dean seems downright miserable, and I wish he would quit but he wouldn't leave Sam.  If he did, he wouldn't be the Dean we've seen for 12 seasons, MMV

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

they were both nearly murdered by the BMOL along with Sam being tortured,

I keep seeing "Sam was tortured" and yes, he got it BY FAR the worst, but she had just given Dean a bad enough beating with the magic brass knuckles that you can hear him say "God" when she comes back in the room and starts toward him again. She had begun her take Dean apart while Sam watched so Sam would talk. I thought that was a pretty stupid plan. Sam wasn't breaking so you would think she would try Dean. Anyway, I am NOT trying to take away from what Sam endured. I just think that Dean might have a little justification for some vengeance on his own. I also think that for him, it would be more about what they did to Sam.

[catrox14]

The only 100% guarantee of Claire being alive at the end of that day, was if no one took any action to impede Claire being turned into a werewolf, including Claire herself.  Presuming Claire's physical survival is all that matters,  yes she would be changed but she'd be alive, like Garth.  That means neither, the BMOL, Sam nor Dean would have any thing to do with her survival other than letting it happen.

Once they started interfering then the point distribution becomes murky, because her state of mind was really not in a place to make the call about using the cure, or not wanting to live as a werewolf. 

She was in a panic mode and believing the worst about herself and whether she could control her behavior. Well that alone was stupid because Sam and Dean were not going to let her just go and try living alone the next day.  They weren't going to say, "Okay, Claire, you've decided to try life as a werewolf, have fun figuring it out!"  No, they would have worked with Cas, Jody, Alex and Garth to help Claire assimilate.  Now if two days had gone by and Claire wanted to opt out, well that's on her. So again none of them get points for her being alive IMO.

If anyone should get the credit for her being alive, it's Sam, for thinking of the cure, and Dean for being the one that put the needle in her despite his profound misgivings about it.  Mick didn't even want to do it, so should the BMOL get credit for something that was not proven useful and actually deadly to a human on their watch? I don't think so.

What I think would be amazing is if we find out the cure didn't kill Claire but didn't work either and she turned anyway.

[MysteryGuest]

20 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The thing is, if they had gone with Dean's first instincts about the BMoL - which was to not work with them - then Claire would be a werewolf and probably killed by another hunter by now.  She wasn't working with the BMoL.  She was hunting on her own and found that werewolf case.  Sam and Dean got the heads up about it from the BMoL.  It's very likely that they wouldn't have found it on their own, since it seemed like the bulk of their time spent not actively hunting was being devoted to finding Kelly.  Claire still would have been targeted by the werewolf, since other BMoL hunters had already killed off the rest of his pack and he was trying to make a new one.  So, if Sam and Dean hadn't been there - and had the resources of the BMoL - Claire wouldn't have been cured.

Well, if Dean hadn't called Claire to get her to come to where they were, and she didn't have an argument with Sam, she wouldn't have had that encounter with the werewolf.  I'm not saying there might not have been another attack on her, but she was pretty distracted from their conversation and wouldn't have had that issue had she not met up with Sam and Dean.

And I meant that Sam could acknowledge that his own first instincts regarding the BMOL were correct, not Dean's.  Sam also believed they were not trustworthy and wanted nothing to do with them.  That is until the writers decided to have him join up after a disastrous demonstration of their superior methods.  Again, writers...please take the extra 5 minutes to write something plausible and in character. 

[Idahoforspn]

18 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 Again, writers...please take the extra 5 minutes to write something plausible and in character. 

Man.. that's expecting a lot!!

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, if Dean hadn't called Claire to get her to come to where they were, and she didn't have an argument with Sam, she wouldn't have had that encounter with the werewolf.  I'm not saying there might not have been another attack on her, but she was pretty distracted from their conversation and wouldn't have had that issue had she not met up with Sam and Dean.

Claire has some responsibility for her own demise here. She's not a child. She's a 19 year old part time hunter, by all accounts and she pitched a fit and stormed off like a 13  year old when Sam was trying to look out for her and just talk to her. If Claire was some noob to the supernatural world, it would be a different story IMO.

Maybe if she didn't have her music up so loud so she didn't hear him sneak up or when she realized the wolf was bigger than her that maybe she just ran like the wind and then called Sam for help. instead of engaging in a fight she was going to lose.

I really do hate that episode so much. It was so poorly plotted. There wasn't one shared braincell between any of the characters. It was just...bad. And made all of them look terrible.  

Edited May 11, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Claire has some responsibility for her own demise here. She's not a child. She's a 19 year old by all accounts and she pitched a fit and stormed off like a 13  year old when Sam was trying to look out for her and just talk to her. Or if she didn't have her music up so loud so she didn't hear him sneak up or when she realized the wolf was bigger than her that maybe she just ran like the wind and then called Sam for help. instead of engaging in a fight she was going to lose.

I really do hate that episode so much. It was so poorly plotted. There wasn't one shared braincell between any of the characters. It was just...bad. And made all of them look terrible.

I was just trying to point out that it doesn't necessarily stand that Claire would have died if Sam and Dean hadn't been working with the BMOL.  Everything would have played out differently for Claire if Sam and Dean weren't there.  That's all I meant.  I don't disagree that she bears the burden of allowing herself to be so distracted in that environment.

I honestly didn't dislike the episode at all, in fact I liked it quite a bit.  For me, it was one of the better ones this season.  It wasn't perfect, but nothing ever is.  But I enjoyed the interaction of Claire with the boys, and I liked seeing Mick come around the way he did.  Unfortunately, that got him killed.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I was just trying to point out that it doesn't necessarily stand that Claire would have died if Sam and Dean hadn't been working with the BMOL.  Everything would have played out differently for Claire if Sam and Dean weren't there.  That's all I meant.  I don't disagree that she bears the burden of allowing herself to be so distracted in that environment.

I haven't watched the ep in a while but wasn't it happenstance that Sam and Dean were there at the same time as Claire? Wasn't she working the case separately and they figured out she was working the case? So it is possible that at some point the werewolf might have gotten to her if it was so inclined.  I guess I don't understand how their being there was the problem per se. IMO, it's her reactions to them being their got her into her predicament, not their presence in and of itself.

[MysteryGuest]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I haven't watched the ep in a while but wasn't it happenstance that Sam and Dean were there at the same time as Claire? Wasn't she working the case separately and they figured out she was working the case? So it is possible that at some point the werewolf might have gotten to her if it was so inclined.  I guess I don't understand how their being there was the problem per se. IMO, it's her reactions to them being their got her into her predicament, not their presence in and of itself.

I was just responding to Rulerofallisurvey's comment that had they gone with Dean's instinct of not working with the BMOL, Claire would have died from the werewolf attack.  I was just countering with the comment that had Sam and Dean not been in that hotel with Mick, or anywhere near where Claire was, that whole scenario would have played out differently and she may or may not have ever had that encounter with the werewolf to begin with.  It was a chain of events that was put into motion when Dean called Claire to come to where they were.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The only 100% guarantee of Claire being alive at the end of that day,

Well...the only 100% guarantee of anyone being alive at the end of the day is....nothing.  There are no guarantees in life. 

Actually, Sam still agreed with Dean that he didn't trust the BMoL when he confessed to Dean that he'd been getting cases from them.  Sam's reasoning for working with them was "they get results", not that they were trustworthy.

54 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I haven't watched the ep in a while but wasn't it happenstance that Sam and Dean were there at the same time as Claire? Wasn't she working the case separately and they figured out she was working the case? So it is possible that at some point the werewolf might have gotten to her if it was so inclined. 

Yes, Sam and Dean were there with Claire by coincidence.  

Maaaaybeee the werewolf wouldn't have gone after Claire had Sam and Dean not been there - but think about that for a second: as I said,

1. He was already targeting young women to re-establish his pack.  

2. Claire was already in his sites from going to the bar before Sam and Dean ever got there.  

With those two things in mind, I think it's safe to say she still would have been bitten, even if Sam, Dean, and Mick hadn't shown up.  And she definitely would have turned into a werewolf without the cure.  Claire said she would rather kill herself then let the full transformation happen.  In fact, she wanted Mick to kill her or give her his gun - and iirc, she made a grab for his gun which he snatched away - while Sam and Dean were out searching for who bit her. 

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the Spoilers thread. No specific spoilers:

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

I worry about them trying to destroy Dean's heroic character more too. For instance, they retconned Dean neglecting young Sam so much  he had to have an imaginary friend. There is reason to worry.

I personally don't see the "Just My Imagination" episode in that light at all. At the end of the episode, Sully even came straight out and praised Dean for taking great care of Sam and admitted he was wrong in his own Sully way: "you are not a germ at all." It was also implied pretty heavily through the episode dialogue that it was Dean who had been working on John to let Sam come with them instead of leaving him behind. Besides we'd previously seen Dean leave Sam on his own for shorter periods of time when he was younger (the flashbacks in season 3) and Dean and John leave him longer periods of time when he was older (the flashbacks in season 7). We also had anecdotal evidence that Dean left Sam in other places to go do his own thing from "Plucky Pennywhistle" - which is a step up from the just leaving him alone in the motel room of season 3, but still might contribute a little to Sam feeling lonely from time to time.

But all of that is only a small part of the story anyway. I have also always disagreed with the notion that Dean leaving Sam on his own sometimes was somehow "neglect" on Dean's part (if anyone, the neglect was John's), or that it was somehow Dean's responsibility to make sure that Sam wasn't lonely. Some kids even prefer to have their alone time to read, go out in nature, create art, whatever, and they don't necessarily feel lonely because of it. My theory is that much of the reason that Sam was a lonely kid was because he didn't feel like he belonged, and that he sometimes felt lonely even when he was with other kids. I think it's why we saw Sam in "Afterschool Special" go straight to the bullied outcast kid to make a "connection." It's an easier connection for Sam to make, because he knows there will be little to no judgement from the picked on kid, and with likely a short time period that he'll be in that school, it would be the easier way to make a "friend". But Sam might still not necessarily feel any other kind of connection to that kid. It's mostly superficial.

For me, the only thing that was "retconned" by "Just My Imagination" was some of the fanfic stories that have (in my opinion) exaggerated Dean's childhood sacrifices for dramatic affect. Dean has already been shown canonically to have made enough sacrifices from what we've seen in the show. It was already reiterated this season that Dean for all intents and purposes didn't have a "childhood." For me, there's no need to turn it into something bordering on mythic levels of sacrifice. For me, "Just My Imagination" reiterated that Dean took great care of Sam - as Sully said - but maybe that Sam was messed up enough by John, by Azazel, by "fate" that not even Dean by sheer force of will could have helped Sam not feel lonely sometimes. As it was shown, ot even Sully, in the end, was able to change it. Between the two of them (Dean and Sully) they could just manage to maybe make things a bit better for Sam - and sometimes that's just life.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the Spoilers thread. No specific spoilers:

I personally don't see the "Just My Imagination" episode in that light at all. At the end of the episode, Sully even came straight out and praised Dean for taking great care of Sam and admitted he was wrong in his own Sully way: "you are not a germ at all." It was also implied pretty heavily through the episode dialogue that it was Dean who had been working on John to let Sam come with them instead of leaving him behind. Besides we'd previously seen Dean leave Sam on his own for shorter periods of time when he was younger (the flashbacks in season 3) and Dean and John leave him longer periods of time when he was older (the flashbacks in season 7). We also had anecdotal evidence that Dean left Sam in other places to go do his own thing from "Plucky Pennywhistle" - which is a step up from the just leaving him alone in the motel room of season 3, but still might contribute a little to Sam feeling lonely from time to time.

But all of that is only a small part of the story anyway. I have also always disagreed with the notion that Dean leaving Sam on his own sometimes was somehow "neglect" on Dean's part (if anyone, the neglect was John's), or that it was somehow Dean's responsibility to make sure that Sam wasn't lonely. Some kids even prefer to have their alone time to read, go out in nature, create art, whatever, and they don't necessarily feel lonely because of it. My theory is that much of the reason that Sam was a lonely kid was because he didn't feel like he belonged, and that he sometimes felt lonely even when he was with other kids. I think it's why we saw Sam in "Afterschool Special" go straight to the bullied outcast kid to make a "connection." It's an easier connection for Sam to make, because he knows there will be little to no judgement from the picked on kid, and with likely a short time period that he'll be in that school, it would be the easier way to make a "friend". But Sam might still not necessarily feel any other kind of connection to that kid. It's mostly superficial.

For me, the only thing that was "retconned" by "Just My Imagination" was some of the fanfic stories that have (in my opinion) exaggerated Dean's childhood sacrifices for dramatic affect. Dean has already been shown canonically to have made enough sacrifices from what we've seen in the show. It was already reiterated this season that Dean for all intents and purposes didn't have a "childhood." For me, there's no need to turn it into something bordering on mythic levels of sacrifice. For me, "Just My Imagination" reiterated that Dean took great care of Sam - as Sully said - but maybe that Sam was messed up enough by John, by Azazel, by "fate" that not even Dean by sheer force of will could have helped Sam not feel lonely sometimes. As it was shown, ot even Sully, in the end, was able to change it. Between the two of them (Dean and Sully) they could just manage to maybe make things a bit better for Sam - and sometimes that's just life.

I can agree with some of what you said but still feel the episode retconned important aspects of Dean caring for his little brother. I don't have time to write a lengthy reply ( Mother's Day) but will try to respond tomorrow.

[Diane]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the Spoilers thread. No specific spoilers:

I personally don't see the "Just My Imagination" episode in that light at all. At the end of the episode, Sully even came straight out and praised Dean for taking great care of Sam and admitted he was wrong in his own Sully way: "you are not a germ at all." It was also implied pretty heavily through the episode dialogue that it was Dean who had been working on John to let Sam come with them instead of leaving him behind. Besides we'd previously seen Dean leave Sam on his own for shorter periods of time when he was younger (the flashbacks in season 3) and Dean and John leave him longer periods of time when he was older (the flashbacks in season 7). We also had anecdotal evidence that Dean left Sam in other places to go do his own thing from "Plucky Pennywhistle" - which is a step up from the just leaving him alone in the motel room of season 3, but still might contribute a little to Sam feeling lonely from time to time.

But all of that is only a small part of the story anyway. I have also always disagreed with the notion that Dean leaving Sam on his own sometimes was somehow "neglect" on Dean's part (if anyone, the neglect was John's), or that it was somehow Dean's responsibility to make sure that Sam wasn't lonely. Some kids even prefer to have their alone time to read, go out in nature, create art, whatever, and they don't necessarily feel lonely because of it. My theory is that much of the reason that Sam was a lonely kid was because he didn't feel like he belonged, and that he sometimes felt lonely even when he was with other kids. I think it's why we saw Sam in "Afterschool Special" go straight to the bullied outcast kid to make a "connection." It's an easier connection for Sam to make, because he knows there will be little to no judgement from the picked on kid, and with likely a short time period that he'll be in that school, it would be the easier way to make a "friend". But Sam might still not necessarily feel any other kind of connection to that kid. It's mostly superficial.

For me, the only thing that was "retconned" by "Just My Imagination" was some of the fanfic stories that have (in my opinion) exaggerated Dean's childhood sacrifices for dramatic affect. Dean has already been shown canonically to have made enough sacrifices from what we've seen in the show. It was already reiterated this season that Dean for all intents and purposes didn't have a "childhood." For me, there's no need to turn it into something bordering on mythic levels of sacrifice. For me, "Just My Imagination" reiterated that Dean took great care of Sam - as Sully said - but maybe that Sam was messed up enough by John, by Azazel, by "fate" that not even Dean by sheer force of will could have helped Sam not feel lonely sometimes. As it was shown, ot even Sully, in the end, was able to change it. Between the two of them (Dean and Sully) they could just manage to maybe make things a bit better for Sam - and sometimes that's just life.

Exactly.

[Demented Daisy]

Quote

I worry about them trying to destroy Dean's heroic character more too.

*shrug*  No matter what the show does to Dean, he'll always be a hero to me.  I can't think of anything they could do that would "destroy" Dean's heroic character.

Except Demon Dean, of course.  But that wasn't really Dean and they were (mercifully) short with that storyline.

[mertensia]

13 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the Spoilers thread. No specific spoilers:

I personally don't see the "Just My Imagination" episode in that light at all. At the end of the episode, Sully even came straight out and praised Dean for taking great care of Sam and admitted he was wrong in his own Sully way: "you are not a germ at all." It was also implied pretty heavily through the episode dialogue that it was Dean who had been working on John to let Sam come with them instead of leaving him behind. Besides we'd previously seen Dean leave Sam on his own for shorter periods of time when he was younger (the flashbacks in season 3) and Dean and John leave him longer periods of time when he was older (the flashbacks in season 7). We also had anecdotal evidence that Dean left Sam in other places to go do his own thing from "Plucky Pennywhistle" - which is a step up from the just leaving him alone in the motel room of season 3, but still might contribute a little to Sam feeling lonely from time to time.

But all of that is only a small part of the story anyway. I have also always disagreed with the notion that Dean leaving Sam on his own sometimes was somehow "neglect" on Dean's part (if anyone, the neglect was John's), or that it was somehow Dean's responsibility to make sure that Sam wasn't lonely. Some kids even prefer to have their alone time to read, go out in nature, create art, whatever, and they don't necessarily feel lonely because of it. My theory is that much of the reason that Sam was a lonely kid was because he didn't feel like he belonged, and that he sometimes felt lonely even when he was with other kids. I think it's why we saw Sam in "Afterschool Special" go straight to the bullied outcast kid to make a "connection." It's an easier connection for Sam to make, because he knows there will be little to no judgement from the picked on kid, and with likely a short time period that he'll be in that school, it would be the easier way to make a "friend". But Sam might still not necessarily feel any other kind of connection to that kid. It's mostly superficial.

For me, the only thing that was "retconned" by "Just My Imagination" was some of the fanfic stories that have (in my opinion) exaggerated Dean's childhood sacrifices for dramatic affect. Dean has already been shown canonically to have made enough sacrifices from what we've seen in the show. It was already reiterated this season that Dean for all intents and purposes didn't have a "childhood." For me, there's no need to turn it into something bordering on mythic levels of sacrifice. For me, "Just My Imagination" reiterated that Dean took great care of Sam - as Sully said - but maybe that Sam was messed up enough by John, by Azazel, by "fate" that not even Dean by sheer force of will could have helped Sam not feel lonely sometimes. As it was shown, ot even Sully, in the end, was able to change it. Between the two of them (Dean and Sully) they could just manage to maybe make things a bit better for Sam - and sometimes that's just life.

 You can grow up in a great, healthy family and still have imaginary friends. 

Sam's personality alone pretty much guarantees an imaginary friend; he's a reader who feels somehow left out at times.