S04.E07: Mockingbird

[spottedreptile]

The Dany stuff was probably the least interesting, but I agree with those that like the change to her not being a lovesick teen. However, as soon as she ordered Darrio to disrobe, I got an unpleasant Orphan Black flashback lol

 

I'm thanking all of the Seven gods that we didn't have to sit through a sex scene between them - their chemistry is non-existent. Come to think of it, there were no sex scenes in this ep, which must be something of a record. 

 

Sophie Turner is turning awesome. I loved her body language. Sansa is a thankless part in the main, and she's doing wonders with it this season. 

 

Dare I say it, I love Tyrion's body language as well, but NOT his impassioned speeches. He seems to get his tongue twisted up in the accent. I love Dinklage when he's being sarky best. 

 

I'm so looking forward to the actual combat scene between Oberyn and Gregor. Inigo Montoya, indeed! Oberyn accent lovers will enjoy.

 

No dragons, no Tywin, no Theon, no Margery/Olenna, no Bran. Yet still it was great. 

Edited May 20, 2014 by spottedreptile

[Holmbo]

Did anyone else get the impression that Tyrion kinda still expected Jaime to fight for him? Even after Jaime said he couldn't fight with his left hand. Tyrion said it like a joke but when Jaime didn't respond he seemed quiet dissapointed.
Just the reality catching up with him?

[Tryangle]

That part was the first time I felt this new approach of this season (to show all the story line in one continuous part instead of chopping it up during the episode) did not work so good. It would have been better to have the snow castle scene in the beginning of the episode and then return later for the finale in the end.

 

Even a one-minute of Sansa constructing her snow castle (maybe with Petyr looking on, maybe fingering his brooch/pin/whatever) could have set the tone for what this episode was about.

 

I'm thanking all of the Seven gods that we didn't have to sit through a sex scene between them - their chemistry is non-existent.

 

Luckily, I think the directors realized that they didn't need to expound on the scene for the viewers. Move quickly along, Daario's got the spring in his step, Dany's got a new dress on, and Jorah's got a Le Sigh face.

[Alapaki]

but I agree with those that like the change to her not being a lovesick teen.

 

 

I'm not sure they've changed it.  Emilia's look (which was awesome acting) really sold the idea that she hadn't seen many of those parts in her life.  And I'm not sure her whole "tell him you changed my mind" was a political ploy to keep her two aides de' camp in political competition as it was to make Daario jealous and/or send the message that letting him sleep with her didn't come with a pay raise.  Either way, I saw it as basically doodling names on her Trapper Keeper.

[Haleth]

What was the point of the Melissandre/Selyse scene other than to fill the boob quota?

 

Who were the people that the Mountain was slaughtering, captive rebels, criminals, practice-peasants?

 

Did anyone else think of the gladiator training scene from A Funny Thing...Forum?

 

Yes, the Vale scene was a bit rushed.  Sophie looked like an angel in the snow.  So beautiful.  And very tall.

 

I liked that Bronn came across as a pragmatist rather than a jerk when he turned Tyrion down.  (Lollys shout out!)  The Oberyn scene was fantastic. 

 

I thought it was pretty clear in the book that the Hound said "fuck everything and everyone" and went to the Quiet Isle after he recovered from his injury.

 

I really wish HBO would dispense with skipping holiday weekends.  I don't want to wait 2 weeks for the next episode, darn it!

 

Wait, what???  No episode next week?

Edited May 20, 2014 by Haleth

[KurlyGrl]

 

Wait, what???  No episode next week?

 

Nope.  No episode airing 5/25/14, then three episodes left. 

[jeansheridan]

Makes sense but ug!  Sophie Turner in snow...She needs to use that clip for future jobs.  Stunning.  I love her clipped voice too.  Are we ready for another Queen Elizabeth movie?  This show isn't often pretty but Sophie does seem to get the princess shots.

[Fen]

 

Even a one-minute of Sansa constructing her snow castle

 

But then we'd had have to have seen how the hell she constructed that intricate castle set-up with (apparently) her bare hands.  Seriously, how did she even begin to do that?

 

 

I thought it was pretty clear in the book that the Hound said "fuck everything and everyone" and went to the Quiet Isle after he recovered from his injury.

 

I am currently deeply, horribly concerned that D&D have found out that the Hound plays no further 'important' part in the larger story after retiring to the Quiet Isle, and have decided that they can therefore kill him off with impunity.  All that stuff about him showing Arya exactly where the heart is.  Not good.

[Independent George]

I am currently deeply, horribly concerned that D&D have found out that the Hound plays no further 'important' part in the larger story after retiring to the Quiet Isle, and have decided that they can therefore kill him off with impunity. All that stuff about him showing Arya exactly where the heart is. Not good.

All that stuff about where the heart is was taken straight from the books, with the wounded Piper soldier.

[Haldebrandt]

I am currently deeply, horribly concerned that D&D have found out that the Hound plays no further 'important' part in the larger story after retiring to the Quiet Isle, and have decided that they can therefore kill him off with impunity.  All that stuff about him showing Arya exactly where the heart is.  Not good.

I've thought the same.  I have no problem with it.  If they know that he is done, then why not.  It would be a great twist for the Arya character to turn what she had envisioned as a revenge killing into a mercy killing.  In the books, my understanding is that she walked away because he was as good as dead anyway.  That part of the book didn't resonate much with me. It was a pretty emotionless affair.  It's been a while, but I think that because she is a kid, Arya's thoughts on the matter weren't very introspective or insightful. But the show could be an improvement, by essentially asking this question:

 

What do you do when you're finally in position to kill your nemesis, and find that killing him would help him?  Does revenge taste as sweet when he would welcome it?

 

To say nothing of the developing bond, which complicates things further, and makes audiences expect that Arya wouldn't do it if given the chance.  That's why I want her to do it, leaving the mercy vs revenge interpretation to the audience.  Or just go with mercy, and leave the audience with the irony.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Catherinewriter]

Quarks, I've been kicking around the possibility of plot alteration so that Oberyn can live, but I don't think they've done anything else so major, have they? It would mean changing so much that follows, right?

Pascal is a joy and I'm not sure I even want to watch the match.

[Holmbo]

I've thought the same.  I have no problem with it.  If they know that he is done, then why not.  It would be a great twist for the Arya character to turn what she had envisioned as a revenge killing into a mercy killing.  In the books, my understanding is that she walked away because he was as good as dead anyway.  That part of the book didn't resonate much with me. It was a pretty emotionless affair.  It's been a while, but I think that because she is a kid, Arya's thoughts on the matter weren't very introspective or insightful. But the show could be an improvement, by essentially asking this question:

 

What do you do when you're finally in position to kill your nemesis, and find that killing him would help him?  Does revenge taste as sweet when he would welcome it?

 

To say nothing of the developing bond, which complicates things further, and makes audiences expect that Arya wouldn't do it if given the chance.  That's why I want her to do it, leaving the mercy vs revenge interpretation to the audience.  Or just go with mercy, and leave the audience with the irony.

 

A lot of people seem to think Arya was indiferent to the hound or left him because she wanted him to suffer. I didn't see that at all. The hound asked her to kill him but she couldn't do it because she didn't hate him anymore. She didn't admit this to him or to herself but I thought it pretty clear from the thoughts she have. I don't remember the exact text but it's something about her thinking about Myca but realizing that it was so long ago and for a short while he'd been her friend.

I'm positive they'll keep it in the show. Being able to see the characters emotions will make it much clearer.

[dr pepper]

If the Red Viper lives, it pretty much wipes out the abortive coup by the Sand Snakes, and the hint that it might be revived. It also means that Dorn's longterm plan with the Emergency Backup Targaryan might still be on.

 

That's a big change.

 

Otoh, it could still lead to Tyrion's Excellent Essos Adventure, but instead of fleeing with just the clothes on his back, he goes first class as a pampered exile, visiting every exotic city on the continent until his liver finally explodes while he's reading a rare book in a bath tub full of prostitutes.

[blixie]

 

A lot of people seem to think Arya was indiferent to the hound or left him because she wanted him to suffer. I didn't see that at all. The hound asked her to kill him but she couldn't do it because she didn't hate him anymore.

I think the beauty of the book is that it's both, she tells herself she's leaving him to "suffer", but the truth is she knows him as human being now, and can't bring herself to kill him. I wouldn't go so far to say she doesn't hate him, but she understands that his killing of Mycah wasn't what she thought it was, and that she now has spent more time with the Hound and getting to know him than she ever did with the Butcher's boy. It's one reason I don't think she'll go full Faceless Man. Arya is rebellious, and she also longs for family, but the Faceless men offer nothing like family, and demand complete obedience/duty. I don't see her sustaining within that structure for long. Needle under the stones is like Chekhov's gun, Arya Stark will not be erased.

[Lord of Bones]

If Martin didn't intend for the Hound to enter the story again I'm sure he would have killed him off instead of sending him to the Quiet Isle. At least I hope so, the Hound is one of my favourites. I could see him joining the newly re-instated Faith Militant of the Seven, but really I'd like to see him get his hands on a Valyrian sword and take out some White Walkers in the end. I agree that Arya spared him because she got to know him and realized he only killed Micah on the King's orders. He was told Micah attacked the King, not much else he can do.

Oberyn's death is one of the more dramatic events in the books and I can't imagine D&D changing that unless they have him replace Doran's role somehow due to Doran's failing health and just rallying the Sand Snakes himself.

[GreyBunny]

Some are hoping for Clegane-apalooza when Cersei has her trial by combat:  FrankenGregor vs. Sandor, the champion for the Faith Militant.

 

Oberyn's death is one of the more dramatic events in the books and I can't imagine D&D changing that unless they have him replace Doran's role somehow due to Doran's failing health and just rallying the Sand Snakes himself.

 

I wish, but Tyrion needs to get to Essos as an exile.  I can't see that happening unless Oberyn dies.  *sob*

[Fen]

 

I've thought the same.  I have no problem with it.  If they know that he is done, then why not.  It would be a great twist for the Arya character to turn what she had envisioned as a revenge killing into a mercy killing.

 

I can see how it would work dramatically - but I liked that at least one character seemed to get a vaguely happy ending.  Plus, it reminded me of Cadfael: a soldier finding peace in the cloister.  Also, I like the Hound.  I can't possibly cope with both Oberyn and the Hound dying in the same season.

[Rhondinella]

Oooh, I do love me a good Cadfael reference!  @Fen , will you be my friend? :-)

[GreyBunny]

Cadfael! ♥

As for Arya, the text is below.  It appears to me she left him to die and thought he didn't deserve a merciful death.  

 

 

 

"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy." 

The Hound watched her saddle Craven through eyes bright with fever. Not once did he attempt to rise and stop her. But when she mounted, he said, "A real wolf would finish a wounded animal."

 

Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they'll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs. "You shouldn't have hit me with an axe," she said. "You should have saved my mother." She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once.

Edited May 23, 2014 by GreyBunny

[dr pepper]

I really don't see Cersei getting trial by combat. But i do find the idea of the Hound joining the templars intriguing. If i were a writer on the show i'd have the order run some sort of internal ordeal for their initiates. So Sandor would find himself trapped in a vicious maze made from components of his own life and pursued through them by his brother.

[Holmbo]

Quarks, I've been kicking around the possibility of plot alteration so that Oberyn can live, but I don't think they've done anything else so major, have they? It would mean changing so much that follows, right?

Pascal is a joy and I'm not sure I even want to watch the match.

I think the show runners would keep to the book even if it wasn't crucial to the plot. All those shocking deaths ups the stake. It seems that they're keeping Shae's death the way it is in the books even though it really has no impact on the plot.

 

As for Arya, the text is below.  It appears to me she left him to die and thought he didn't deserve a merciful death. 

    "Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy."

    The Hound watched her saddle Craven through eyes bright with fever. Not once did he attempt to rise and stop her. But when she mounted, he said, "A real wolf would finish a wounded animal."

    

    Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they'll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs. "You shouldn't have hit me with an axe," she said. "You should have saved my mother." She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once.

 

 

 

The reason I feel Arya is not honest to herself and the hound is because GRRM writes this about the night before.

Sandor moaned, and she rolled onto her side to look at him. She had left his name out too, she realized. Why had she done that? She tried to think of Mycah, but it was hard to remember what he'd looked like. She hadn't known him long. All he ever did was play at swords with me. "The Hound," she whispered, and, "Valar morghulis." Maybe he'd be dead by morning . . .

[GreyBunny]

She wavered for a moment but she ultimately did say his name, didn't seem broken up about possibly finding him dead the next morning, and she wasn't charitable toward him when she finally left.  She left him to die a painful, festering death.  It was just luck that he was found and nursed back to health by the Brothers.

[Holmbo]

Yes she does say it but she couldn't really give a reason for it anymore. Then when she denies him mercy it's because of Mycah, who she admitted to herself she could barely remember. The other accusations she gives him seem rather week too. 

That's the impression I got and I'd be surprised if the show isn't going there too.

[blixie]

 

Yes she does say it but she couldn't really give a reason for it anymore. Then when she denies him mercy it's because of Mycah, who she admitted to herself she could barely remember. The other accusations she gives him seem rather week too.

 

Agreed, I see no reason for that passage where she realizes she left him off the list, and considers hardly having known Mycah, and then takes the advice of this man that she "hates" and wants dead that killing can be a mercy. That's there to make Arya and the reader wonder about her true motivations and reasons for leaving him alive. When she mentions the ax to the head and Catelyn, it seems like she's trying to convince herself, she could have added he had stupid hair.

[Haldebrandt]

See what you guys are saying, and when I went back and re-read it, I saw hints of ambivalence. But the overwhelming impression that remains is that, despite that smallest of hesitations, she exacted her vengeance:  she left him to die a painful death, and "never looked back."  There is no real ambiguity there in my book.

 

Also, Sandor's injury in the books tell me that whatever happens to him, his fighting days are done.  I don't see a Templar Knight in his future.

[Fen]

 

"You shouldn't have hit me with an axe," she said. "You should have saved my mother." She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once.

 

That bit chilled me because her reasons were so childish.   It reminded you Arya is still a child, with a child's black and white - and sometimes totally unreasonable - way of thinking.  The Hound couldn't have saved Catelyn, and hitting Arya with the axe saved her life - but Arya is an angry, damaged 10(?) year old, and there's no reasoning with her.

 

 

Oooh, I do love me a good Cadfael reference!  Fen , will you be my friend? :-)

 

Of course, good brother :)

Edited May 23, 2014 by Fen

[Jamoche]

Did anyone else think of the gladiator training scene from A Funny Thing...Forum?

Yes :)

[areca]

As for Arya, the text is below.  It appears to me she left him to die and thought he didn't deserve a merciful death.  

 

Arya is the very queen of making up nonsense on the spot to justify doing what she wants to do anyway.  She's done it since episode one where she spouts off some nonsense to cover what she's really up to.  It's canonical behavior.

[John Potts]

Did like Tyrion going "Yeah, we're so alike - you can kill a King, fuck your sister..." and Jamie goes, "Hey!" But did like that he acknowledges it's asking a lot for Jamie to die just to spite their dad or Bronn to take a massive risk in fighting The Mountain.

Also liked The Hound/Arya bonding scene. Would have liked another repetition of Arya's list where she hesitates before naming The Hound - could have cut the Selyse/Mel scene, but that would have cut down the number of boobs in the episode, and we can't have that...

Night Watch are a bunch of idiots - listen to Jon!

On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 10:30 AM, dr pepper said:

Hound, who says you've got no parenting skills? Showing a child how to reach the heart is just what a good father should do.

Should I feel neglected that my dad never did that for me?

On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 3:05 AM, mac123x said:

Hotpie was a fantastic cameo, and the entire discussion between Pod and Brienne was hysterical.  Hell, just her facial expressions when Hotpie was rambling were a riot.

OK, controversial opinion: I don't like gravy! But that scene was precious (though are they really going to hang onto that bread until they meet Arya?). Loved that he's still calling it "WinterHell". And who knows, maybe they can short circuit all that endless wandering that Brienne does for 2 books!

On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 3:02 AM, kechara said:

"My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my  father (ok sister in this case) Prepare to die." when Oberon was in the cell with Tyrion?

I believe GRRM has stated that The Princess Bride was a direct inspiration for his speech ("You killed her, You raped her...") next week.