Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[SueB]

I agree Hana Chan, they've really been hurtful to Sam regarding him trying to have faith.

[Aeryn13]

Personally, I was very happy that it was Lucifer. In Season 5 Castiel was on an entire search for God and was ignored. Dean appealed to him in a desperate plea and was ignored. He didn`t lift a finger for his first "children" the angels, not even his apparently immediate family, the archangels. He doesn`t even acknowledge his own sister.

 

Everyone on this show gets ignored by God, in their hour of need or not. If they have faith or not. They get kicked in the face over and over again. Why should Sam be the most specialest being in the entire universe? God is not his imaginary friend aka a creature designed to prop and validate him. He is apparently a dick, so let him be a dick to ANYONE, including the writer`s pet. At least that keeps an even playing field in that one area. 

[DittyDotDot]

I kinda hope we will learn Lucifer is just dicking with Sam and the visions are from neither God nor Lucifer. Sure, it's unlikely, but I still remain hopeful, anyway. I know, I know... .

 

Is it certain that God ignores everyone though? I mean, could not God have answered both Dean and Cass's prayers in S5, but just Dean and Cass not seen what he put in motion as a response? It might only prove that S5 God [Kripke] isn't quite as overtly literal as S11 God [Carver]. Yeah, I know, I know... .

 

However, I do think God shouldn't be answering anyone's prayers post-S5. Humanity, via Sam, Dean, a fallen angel and an old drunk, declared themselves "adults" and moved out of daddy's house so it didn't have to live under daddy's rules. Time for the kids to stop running to daddy if they want to stand on their own two feet.

[mertensia]

Yeah but maybe Daddy shouldn't be expecting the Winchesters to fix everything, either.

[Mulva]

Now all season we see him praying and sincerely believing that God is giving him clues about how to handle Amara and it's not only by sending Sam to face the being that brutalized him for over a century, but that the visions might not have come from God at all. Which is about as nasty a way to trash a character that the show has ever done.

Sam has been the writers' whipping boy since S4. Everything he does is wrong, when he trusts a monster he's always wrong, every decision he makes backfires in some way. He's nobodies favorite, people feel free to joke about his personal tragedies, and he gets all the blame for situations that had many causes and other people's involvement.

It's really getting old.

[mertensia]

In this case Sam- all of them- should have done more than re-enact Bernadette of Lourdes or whoever and done some more critical thinking. But no Sam's hubris "God is sending me messages!" pushed them along. Dean is kinda of preoccupied but even so he should have been wanting more proof than "who else could be sending me memories of being tortured in the Cage?"

[Omegamom]

In Sam's defense, he had no idea The Cage was damaged, and, so far as he knew, since God created it and shoved Lucifer there, it's been solid as a rock. Also, since The Darkness has so far seemed pretty impersonal about who she kills, and has only manifested soul-sucking and tossing people around as abilities, i wouldn't expect him to think of them from Amara, either. So who's left? Metadouche, but he's got no grace and is, in fact, disgraced. (Har.) Rowena? She might have the ability, but she had vanished into the wind prior to this episode. And I don't think it's a case of Sam's ego, more a case of Sam's faith mixed in with huge guilt making him believe it was god...

[Aeryn13]

The "I never could fool you" in that one vision was just too much. That statement implies familiarity. What, does it make Sam think back to all the times God talked to him before specifically? All the times God tried to trick him and Sam saw through it? Only Sam would know that this never ever happened. Actual God would not have a reason to say something like this.

 

Then again, Lucifer was pretending it was the first he heard of the Darkness being released in that scene with Sam - Crowley would have known that was bubkis but for reasons (of bullshit) him and Rowena had to stand out of earshot. Death had tales of woe about her, every angel, demon and monster quakes in their booties about her pretty much. We know the archangels helped God to defeat her so they would know best the danger she poses. Apparently, probably Lucy screamed bloody murder about it in the cage in the Premiere.

 

But in that scene, Lucifer acts as if it is the first he hears about it and his reaction couldn`t have been more cavalier and blasé if Sam had told him the Cookie Monster escaped. And nothing about this seemed odd to anyone? Crowley didn`t use demonic powers to secretely listen in and realize uh-uh, Lucifer was bullshitting? He didn`t even seem to catch on to the more than obvious fact how non-bothered Rowena was about her wards failing. I mean, she didn`t even bother to act surprised or alarmed. She might as well have worn a T-shirt with "that was my plan all along". 

 

I know plot stupidity but when scenes have too much of it, like this one did, I find it impossible to overlook.

[mertensia]

Why wouldn't Sam even consider it was The Darkness though? He's getting visions at the same time Dean's zoning out with Amara.

As for Rowena & Crowley- I figured Sam and Dean deliberately told them to stay out of earshot.

Edited December 18, 2015 by mertensia

[neverforgottenadam]

I wish Charlie would make an appearance. I know her character is dead, but in Supernatural death does not mean much. 

[neverforgottenadam]

Moderators, please delete this post. The Charlie one was my complaint. Thank you. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by neverforgottenadam

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the  "Spoilers with Speculation" thread...

 

Is it just me or has anyone else considered Lucifer wants out so he can join Amara on her revenge tour?

I'm thinking the point of this Lucifer storyline is going to be for them to realize Lucifer isn't going to be a solution. I think this will be a lesson for them; they can't trust him, they let him out...it's just too dangerous. They'll have to find another way, I think. It could be just that I've been considering how much this season has felt like S5 in many ways. So, just like their attempt to shoot the Devil in the head, I'm thinking this will turn out to be a failure too.

 

I personally would be annoyed by the repeat, myself, because I've had enough lessons on him being wrong for Sam... which is what this would be. Dean all along has said that they shouldn't trust Lucifer and not to depend on God, so he has no "lesson" to learn here. All it would be is yet another lesson for Sam that he is once again wrong on everything he thought and hoped. Unlike season 5 where Dean just had a small dip in faith - he originally was the one on board with the "screw destiny, we'll do it together" thing - the storyline here would just be all about how Sam was wrong from the beginning and what a moron he was to ever question Dean's "I said 'no' so that's it" opinion on the matter. I much prefer it when each brother has a point of view that might be different but both contributes to the solution rather than a once again Sam is wrong and a moron to ever bother to try to think on his own out of the box, and that he should just listen to / follow Dean's lead in a John / Dean type dynamic.

 

I hope that is likely not what the writers would be intentionally going for per se, but that would be - for me - the message.... which I would hate, because I thought that the early years were all about showing that the John strategy of having one deciding leader and one "Yes, sir" follower was not generally the way to go, but that a partnership lead to better and less reckless solutions.

 

I would much prefer it if Sam gains something useful from going to the cage or that it somehow contributes to the solution than that he once again dares to have a different opinion from Dean and so therefor has to be completely wrong and punished for it. I was already tired of that message somewhat marring last season* (which I was enjoying to that point). This season was a chance to temper that a bit, but if the story is just more of the same, but even more so, the writers are going to have a hard time convincing me that 1) the show considers both brothers the hero of and partners in this story 2) they aren't intending to be showing me that Sam is a moron, and 3) that Sam should even be hunting at all since apparently they think he sucks at it.

 

And if so for that last one... why the hell have Sam realize that he wants to be hunting after all only for him to find out he sucks at it and shouldn't be doing it? That will completely piss me off.

 

* Even when Dean does questionable things like helping Gadreel take over Sam and taking on the mark of Cain without figuring the consequences, somehow all of his choices turn out to be the right ones in the end with mostly positive results, and the storyline still ends up with Sam being the one in the wrong... as in Sam would - and did - do the same thing (just as Dean said he would) and in addition starts an apocalypse because of it. I'm getting a bit annoyed at the apparent inconsistency of the message and in the one-sidedness of the only Sam causes problems and bad from his decisions. Or that if he ever does anything somewhat good or helpful (as say un-demoning Dean), he inevitably must mess it up to an even worse degree (insisting on removing the mark when Dean told him not to and causing an apocalypse) just to prove Dean was once again right and/or was at least not anywhere near as wrong as Sam.

 

If this turns out to be as simplistic as Lucifer is (still) evil and then that Amara turns out to help save the world - validating Dean's bond with her - I think I will finally be done with this show, because then the only apparent roll of Sam in this show in the current Carver incarnation will be as a problem / burden for Dean as the little brother who never listens, is almost always wrong, and that big brother has to bail out. That Dean's life would be so much better if he could only just "quit" Sam. And that isn't the show that I signed up for or seemed to be being shown in the beginning. At all.

[SueB]

I would much prefer it if Sam gains something useful from going to the cage or that it somehow contributes to the solution 

 

I think we've already got at least ONE piece of new data from Luci - she's got the same raw power as God but no experience. God is a master strategist and she throws temper tantrums.

 

That's not enough, but it's clear he knows a thing or three. It would be an awful waste of Mark P's appearance if he provided no value added than "torture Sam".

[7kstar]

The show I want to see if two brother's fighting the fight together.  That they need each other to solve a piece of the puzzle.  I don't want a saint Sam or Saint Dean.  I want to see how each brings an idea that the other wouldn't have thought of on their own.

 

I'm also so sick to death of which character that is left will be killed off this season.  It isn't compelling, it doesn't even tug at my heartstrings anymore.  It's become predictable and I hope I'm wrong...but I'm tired of being proved right. 

 

Charlie's and Kevin's deaths didn't tug at my heartstrings at all.  I just got mad.  I won't say I'll give up on this show, because I seem to be watching the train-wreck, but I don't know if I'll be as excited as I once was...I would love to be proved wrong.

[SueB]

Yes, I'm here. In the bitterness thread.  I generally eschew bitterness whenever possible but.....

 

Seeing young Grant Gustin (CW's The Flash) on the freakin' red carpet for the Golden Globes is pissing me off....after a day where there were a ton of CW stars at the TCAs and the only mention of Supernatural was about 3 sentences of how it will never end.  

 

They take J2 for granted.  

 

Now, I know that the boys don't generally go to these things unless required.  Jared is probably far happier to be risking his neck on the slopes of Whitefish Resort (Montana) rather than dress in a tuxedo.  And Jensen, who does like to dress up nice (apparently), gives me the impression of someone who'd rather be with a small group of friends than a large party most times.  

 

Grant is there as a presenter. He has a role, he's not just schmoozing.  Undoubtedly a "perk" given to the CW for having two nominees. And kudos to the CW for finally getting some nominees.  Last year they had Gina Rodriguez.  She was nominated again, but it was Rachel Bloom (CWs My Crazy Ex-Girlfriend) who won the award.  

 

But here's was cheeses me off ...

- I GET that it's only one person so it's either going to be Grant, Stephen Amell, or maybe Rose McIver.  Since they are heavily amp'ing the DC stories and Grant's show is the HIGHEST rated ... he gets the nod.  I GET that.

- But zero effort to get Jensen to the People's Choice Awards.

- No cast presence at the TCA's since the 200th buzz-fest.

- No recognition that Supernatural's risk taking likely contributes to some of the comfort Mark P. has with risk taking in his shows.

 

And I KNOW it's petty.  I know this is just the business.  

 

I'm just bitter when I compare the acting skill of Grant Gustin (who is developing nicely but he's no J2M2) and feel like he's getting recognition the boys will never get.  

 

/rant off.  

 

And since I'm on a Golden Globes tear...Ricky Gervais is just not my cup of tea. 

Edited January 11, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

Preach it, girlfriend

 

[7kstar]

It would explain why the shows I love die a quick death, the ones I could care less about live on far too long.

 

It would be nice if the industry really went after talent and sometimes they do, but I totally wish that the leads got a bit more support instead of being taken for granted.

[Aeryn13]

This is a show in its 11th Season and it has proven steady in the ratings no matter what they do. Or in this case don`t do. They can move it around on the schedule, not promote it much and it still works. Heck, I think the quality of the writing has been abysmal for the last 6 to 7 years and that hasn`t made a dent. They could probably show toothpaste for 42 minutes and it would have roughly the same ratings.

 

It would be highly unusual for a network to really sink money into promoting such an old show but in this case, why should they? Buisness-wise, I can totally understand it. 

 

As for taking the actors for granted. They know what kind of show they are on and that it hasn`t nor will it ever bring real awards recognition or promotional efforts. Even if it was much, much better than it was, it wouldn`t be considered. They know it is shot out of the way of important Hollywood happenings. That the shooting schedule will not permit taking on more prestigious projects etc. And yet they keep signing on. And on. And on. If they want a shot at a better career, they have it in their hands. 

 

To me, the CW and Warner Bros do what can be expected of them in regards to the show and all the people involved with it, sorry to say. The thing that makes ME bitter is actually the constant re-signing. It`s pretty obvious now each year lesser screentime is negotiated. And of course raises come with the territory so it`s a lucrative and secure deal each year but  at this point I can`t even feel the slightest bit bad for the negatives that come with it.

[auntvi]

Does anyone know if Jared and Jensen have signed for a season 12? Or is it too early?

[DittyDotDot]

Does anyone know if Jared and Jensen have signed for a season 12? Or is it too early?

 

As far as I know, they usually sign their contracts in the summer and, as far as I know, it hasn't been officially announced they did or didn't. It wasn't officially announced last year, though, so it may mean nothing. Last year many folks (myself included) speculated that since we hadn't gotten an official word it meant they hadn't signed them and S10 would most likely be the last. When the CW renewed the show for S11, I was surprised.

 

So, they may have (or not), and we may not know for sure until we hear about the renewal--I doubt the CW would renew the show without a firm commitment from both Jensen and Jared. Sometimes we've heard about it because Jared and/or Jensen are asked about it at a con, but I haven't been keeping up with the con videos this season. Someone who has might be better able to shed light on that.

[catrox14]

Jared made an off the cuff remark at Nerd HQ at Comic Con this past July that he hadn't signed his contract yet in response to a question someone asked about Mark or Jared directing an episode. Some took it as a joke, I thought he was serious. Some thought it didn't make sense for him to be working without a contract and I speculated that it was possible he was working on under last season's contract. But ultimately no one really knows if he was joking or not.

 

I think it was yesterday that I saw Jim Michaels reply to someone on Twitter that he himself was signed on for s12 but he didn't answer about anyone else.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "All Episodes Talk..." thread to be safe:

 

Warning: the following is partially fueled by me having an awful cold (Thanks, hubby) the night before I'm supposed to go to the theater tomorrow (To see The Book of Mormon.) I hate being all stuffed up, and my zinc didn't work as fast this time as I had hoped. I'm going to try to get some sleep now if the Nyquil kicks in. So yeah, sorry, but this catharsis made me feel better anyway...

 

I think the writer`s intent was to have ultimately Dean turn out to be wrong.

.

 

If that was the case, then Benny would have been evil and only using Dean, but it was clear - to me anyway - from the beginning that he wouldn't be evil. Back on TWoP I called it from the first episode. Not only that, but I called early on that Benny would sacrifice himself to save Sam, because that's how these things generally go in regards to Dean and Sam.

 

Also, Sam's supposed arc from the very first episode was turned into a joke. As soon as we learned that Sam had abandoned Kevin they put Kevin's "Eat me" e-mails in there. "Ha ha ha. See look no harm no foul. It's okay that Sam was a jerk who deserved to be told 'Eat me', because Kevin is fine" and then they made it worse with Dean understandably pointing out how Sam abandoned Kevin. I don't think there was ever any intent to make Sam's motivation something serious, because I can't think of how having another character justifiably say "Eat me" and another point out exactly that what he did was crappy is somehow supposed to turn into a serious consideration of how the character in question was supposedly right all along. To me, that makes no sense. And every other thing that happened along the way supported the fact that yes, indeed, Sam was wrong.

 

But that didn't matter, because I guess we were supposed to be distracted by a sub-par "love affair" with an unlikable woman... And even then there was no attempt to call it what it was: a dysfunctional relationship which devolved into, as 7kstar rightly labeled it, a sloppy soap storyline. And as the storyline evolved and we learned that Sam had left Amelia before Dean even came back, it was clear to me that there wasn't much of an attempt to have Sam be sympathetic or to have Sam's storyline make logical sense. To quote Mystery Science Theater 3000: they just didn't care. And as a person who likes Sam, I think that he deserved a better storyline than that. That the writers ultimately had Sam decide that hunting was what he wanted to do after all in season 10, to me, just shows that all of Sam's supposed motivation in season 8 was supposed to be just selfishness and Sam being a jerk, because obviously the "mature" and "moral" thing to do and the only thing that really gives Sam purpose is hunting, so all of that stuff in season 8 was obviously Sam being wrong-headed as usual.

 

After all, Sam may have dissed him in the first half of the Season  but they hammered on the voice-mail of doom and left out Sam`s shitty behaviour in the situation completely.

 

For me this was just a crappy attempt at damage control. A way to just shrug away all of Sam's character assassination by ignoring it so they could focus on the Dean/Benny and Dean/Castiel dynamic without actually addressing Sam's crappy arc or admitting that they had been wrong in the first place. For me, this might have been even more insulting than if they had had Sam revel in his crappy behavior, because at least then I would know they intended to have some purposeful direction for Sam's arc rather than just not caring that it was a mess and pretending that they meant it to be that way the whole time. Like I was a moron who didn't actually see what they showed me onscreen.

 

I never believed the "Sam was doing the mature thing" explanation, because again, they made a joke out of it from the start, and then they didn't have Sam actually doing anything "mature" to back it up later on. In fact, they had him behave erratically and immaturely (blaming Dean for stuff that had nothing to do with Dean, running away from the Amelia situation, giving Dean an ultimatum about Benny and having a temper tantrum about it, going behind Dean's back in an apparent revenge thing against Benny, not apologizing to Dean or Kevin, etc.). And for me, there was almost no way they could've thought that any of that behavior on Sam's part was "mature." And I was insulted that they thought I would just buy their supposed explanation and think "oh, I guess I just didn't actually see everything I just saw." Sorry, I'm not buying their snake oil.

 

And then when Sam was absolutely and completely wrong about Benny (who on top of that was the bestest and noblest vampire ever), and Sam didn't complete the trials or do anything at all to help anyone, then I figured the whole "mature" explanation for Sam had been just smoke and mirrors and an attempt to pull the wool over my eyes on what they'd done to Sam's character without having to, you know, actually redeem Sam's character (because that's boring compared to Dean angst and Dean's ultimate declaration of loyalty to his crappy brother.) That's what all of their explanations felt like to me.

 

Bah.

 

And then after the trials, he [Dean] had to meekly devolve back into bunker maid and cheerleader but even that wasn`t done to Sam`s satisfaction because he declared his wish for suicide in the Finale on the grounds of Dean not cheerleading enough and having other friends.

 

That's not what I got out of that at all, so obviously miles vary. Sam wasn't, in my opinion, complaining about Dean having friends. It was about Dean giving others the benefit of the doubt over him [sam] - one of those people who was at that very moment not listening to Dean (again!) and causing potential world-wide chaos due to his bad decisions (again!) I mean, Sam may not have had a strong point when it came to Benny, but he certainly had a point when it came to Castiel, in my opinion. But instead of Dean saying - "yeah you kind of have a point about Cas there," he went all overboard with the mushy bro stuff... with the added benefit of having Sam be wrong about that, too, because of course Dean loves you the most, Sam. How could you be so stupid to ever think otherwise? You were again totally wrong to ever think such a thing.

 

And Sam was mostly suicidal over being a screw-up, which the show had made entirely sure at that point in the season that he was.

Edited January 17, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[FlickChick]

To this day, and how many seasons is it, I cannot understand what the hell Carver was thinking when he wrote that absolute piece of trash opening to S8. This is the man who wrote "A Very Supernatural Christmas" and "Mystery Spot" where Sam was actively trying to save/please Dean. Sam is an intelligent hunter with great research skills, and we are supposed to believe he simply didn't even think about Dean and just "drove"? I have to admit that Sam's lack of caring about his brother in the first half of that season made me dislike him as a person and I had never felt like that before. Even in S4, with his lying and sneaking around with Ruby, I disliked his behavior, but not him. And to tell the truth, I have never gotten back to my positive feelings about Sam since S8. That's what Carver did to me. I wonder how many others can say the same?

[catrox14]

I still come back to believing that Carver thought Sam finding a life away from hunting was a healthy choice and understandable given that bit of dialogue about honoring a deal to not look for each other which had never been honored(nor mentioned before) because before we see Sam leave to meet up with Dean, we see Dean feral and terrifying whilst pointing a gun at innocent people in the woods, stealing a backpack, digging a grave and putting something into that grave that winds up resurrecting a vampire. I believe our sympathy was supposed to be with Sam; that we were supposed to be afraid of Dean and what he might do to Sam, who was just trying to live a normal life again (not unlike the pilot when Dean came back to drag Sam back into a life he didn't want). Throwing in Kevin always puzzled me but now, with some hindsight, I wonder if Carver was starting the 'consequences to the innocent because of the shitty Winchesters" refrain but didn't yet build up to that point.  I dunno.

 

Now this is just my intrepretation and this does not mean I think Jared is a bad actor, because I think he is a good actor and has his moments of greatness but  I wonder if there was something that Jared could have put into Sam's performance from the get go that would have given us a glimpse of this supposed trauma that Sam experienced. On the other hand it was an entire year later that Dean showed up so maybe Sam would have been over most of the trauma by then. I dunno, maybe when Sam was telling Dean that he "just drove" if Jared had just reflected some kind of internal trauma that Sam was remembering, I think it would have gone a long way to building some sympathy for Sam's plight. Instead we got Sam being kind of a dick about it "saying...yes I quit hunting and life went on".  Again, I think it was supposed to be healthy but it just never worked. And went against all that had gone before with the boys do anything including making bad deals to find each other.

[AwesomO4000]

I still come back to believing that Carver thought Sam finding a life away from hunting was a healthy choice and understandable given that bit of dialogue about honoring a deal to not look for each other which had never been honored(nor mentioned before) because before we see Sam leave to meet up with Dean, we see Dean feral and terrifying whilst pointing a gun at innocent people in the woods, stealing a backpack, digging a grave and putting something into that grave that winds up resurrecting a vampire. I believe our sympathy was supposed to be with Sam; that we were supposed to be afraid of Dean and what he might do to Sam, who was just trying to live a normal life again (not unlike the pilot when Dean came back to drag Sam back into a life he didn't want). Throwing in Kevin always puzzled me but now, with some hindsight, I wonder if Carver was starting the 'consequences to the innocent because of the shitty Winchesters" refrain but didn't yet build up to that point.  I dunno.

 

Except that Sam didn't know any of that, and Dean didn't seem all that scary to me, or even that jumpy for long. He might've pointed a gun at the innocent people, but it didn't last all that long, and he seemed to almost immediately get his bearings and be just hyper-vigilant Dean. If anything, it made him a better hunter in the end, it was Sam who Carver seemed to make irrational, so if that's what Carver was going for, he failed miserably.

 

And if our sympathies were supposed to be with Sam - which I, personally didn't see - I think that was mostly undone by the time we got the "Eat me" scene where what Sam did was turned into a joke, and the verbal berating of Sam by Dean - which was never in any way balanced by any reasonable excuse late - seemed to me to be the actual thoughts of the writers as to what Sam did. As you say, why even put the Kevin stuff in there? And I would add and then make a joke about it? Except to make Sam look bad.

 

Now this is just my intrepretation and this does not mean I think Jared is a bad actor, because I think he is a good actor and has his moments of greatness but  I wonder if there was something that Jared could have put into Sam's performance from the get go that would have given us a glimpse of this supposed trauma that Sam experienced. On the other hand it was an entire year later that Dean showed up so maybe Sam would have been over most of the trauma by then. I dunno, maybe when Sam was telling Dean that he "just drove" if Jared had just reflected some kind of internal trauma that Sam was remembering, I think it would have gone a long way to building some sympathy for Sam's plight. Instead we got Sam being kind of a dick about it "saying...yes I quit hunting and life went on".  Again, I think it was supposed to be healthy but it just never worked. And went against all that had gone before with the boys do anything including making bad deals to find each other.

 

I've always wondered if Jared was expecting something else to come from the flashbacks eventually or from the story in general. Like maybe Jared expected there to eventually be some big revelation that he really did try to find Dean... and maybe something really bad happened as a result - which come to think of it would've been a much better way, in my opinion, to get across the "it was more mature for Sam to not look for Dean" message and might explain the misplaced anger towards Dean. Or maybe - like I thought - the flashbacks were all a Sam hallucination.  Maybe the whole thing was a Sam hallucination, because sadly I thought that at least Amelia was a hallucination for many many episodes.

 

But I think the biggest evidence - for me - against the writers supposedly trying to say that Sam not looking for Dean and finding a life outside of hunting was the mature thing to do was just about everything that happened afterwards. Dean was almost immediately shown to have come back better, faster, a stronger hunter, etc. Benny was quickly shown to be loyal. Sam was very soon shown to act irrationally and was a crappy hunter. Sam was wrong about Benny, and he did dangerous things to boot to further his irrational ideas (I loathed "Citizen Fang." It is in the top 3 of my most hated episodes of television ever along with the season 6 finale of Buffy.) Nowhere in the narrative was there any attempt to show Sam's behavior as the right or rational one, that I saw anyway.There was some "damage control" but to me it was mostly an afterthought.

 

Besides if Sam living the non-hunting life and not looking for Dean was supposed to be the "mature" and "right" thing to do, how does that explain season 9 and 10? In season 9 when Dean helped Gadreel take over Sam to heal him rather than let him go, yes, some of the sympathy was initially for Sam - even though we saw most of it from Dean's point of view - and we had that one (for me) heartbreaking scene where Sam thought something was wrong with him again and he was so worried about what might happen. But soon enough the tone of the season shifted and Sam was once again the bad guy for being angry with Dean for what Dean did, Dean was proven to be right in both saving Sam via Gadreel (because even though Kevin was killed, Gadreel saved Castiel, Charlie, Sam, and ultimately helped to save the world) and in saying Sam would do the same thing (because Sam did do the same thing). And then Sam ended up deciding that hunting was what made him happy after all, so what was the point of making him look crappy in season 8 and the second half of season 9 for, if that was where the story was going to go anyway? And that's kind of a weird philosophy to do a 180 on within 3 seasons from Sam was mature to want a regular life and to not risk the world to save his brother to Sam realizes that he is happiest being a hunter and it is always worth it to save his brother no matter what. Wait what? So am I supposed to believe Sam is more mature now... or back when he didn't look for Dean? I'm not being sarcastic here - I really am confused on the message that I'm supposed to be getting from Carver.

 

And if Sam is supposed to be thinking rightly now, then that means back in season 8 he was wrong, and that was what the writers were going for - and threw Sam under the bus to show that. Which pisses me off for exactly what FlickChick was saying above here...

And to tell the truth, I have never gotten back to my positive feelings about Sam since S8. That's what Carver did to me. I wonder how many others can say the same?

It's been up and down for me - I started liking Sam again at the end of season 8 through the beginning of season 9, but then "The Purge" and the rest of season 9 made me not like Sam again (except the episode with the nuns) until the end. Season 10 improved, and I started to recognize Sam again, but the ending of it annoyed me. In general though, even though I like Sam again, I don't love him as much as I did in season 7. And yes, I blame Carver for that. And for the most part I blame him rather than Sam now, because Carver's insistence on making Sam continually wrong about everything and almost everything Sam does go as badly as possible - Sam is almost Charlie Brown at this point - makes me feel kind of sorry for Sam now.

Edited January 19, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[7kstar]

When I say that I think the initial reaction was suppose to be support Sam and his mature new outlook, I think the fan reaction changed it in  a quick heartbeat,  which would make sense in a way.

 

The rewrite comes from nowhere.  It's not organic at all.  So I can almost see the writers going, well our love interest has died, how can we save this.  Why don't we do this.  There is enough thread to make it work, kind of how Kripke did with the show Bugs. 

 

The fan reaction was not good towards Bugs, so he turned it into a joke in the later years.  It wasn't the initial plan. 

 

I can also see that Jared is thinking that something is going to happen but he doesn't have the gift of layers like Jensen.  Some of his reactions give that, but not all.  It's not about him being a bad actor, but not always seeing the better conflict choice.

 

I remember watching an interview where he thought he would react to John in one way and Kim M.  suggested another way, which to me is obvious but to Jared it was a new thought.  Without a strong director, he may go with his first reaction but it may not give the deepest conflict, hence the layers that make us feel many emotions.

 

I don't know if any of this makes in any sense at all to non actors/directors...But to me season 8 had this weird vibe shift that just didn't make sense.  Of course 8 may be my worst season ever, as  I don't even own it besides 6. 

 

I liked Lisa and Dean, but the season 8 love affair never felt real.  Maybe it wasn't suppose to be. 

[catrox14]

 

And if our sympathies were supposed to be with Sam - which I, personally didn't see - I think that was mostly undone by the time we got the "Eat me" scene where what Sam did was turned into a joke, and the verbal berating of Sam by Dean - which was never in any way balanced by any reasonable excuse late - seemed to me to be the actual thoughts of the writers as to what Sam did. As you say, why even put the Kevin stuff in there? And I would add and then make a joke about it? Except to make Sam look bad.

 

 

I really do wonder if Carver's vision of the Winchesters are that they are not heroes or even anti-heroes now. 

 

They get beaten and fucked over by Crowley, Metatron and Rowena with great consistency.  Sam keeps being hubrisy and Dean is now an actual murderer of human beings. Now, even though I PERSONALLY don't care because he killed murderers, murder co-conspirators and rapists, he still killed human beings which has been a NO NO in the show.  Carver took Dean, bona fide hero and turned him into a monster and a LITERAL demon, FOR WHAT?   What has Dean learned for his troubles? What has changed? What was the fucking point?  But still keep him being affected by the Mark...again TO WHAT END?? 

 

sidebar: Whilst I loved demon!Dean because of Jensen's portrayal I HATED that they ever did that to him. But once they did, I was really hopeful they would do something worthwhile with it....but nope they did fuck all with it

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that Carver has done a good job with making both Sam and Dean monsters and then he spends his time trying to find the Good Guy in fucking Crowley.  And why Metatron continues to even live given his monstrous ways is beyond me.  I've said here before. I'm convinced Carver is still trying to  run "Being Human" under  banner of "Supernatural" and that's not really what I like. I guess I'm really just watching out of loyalty and to see more great performances from the actors. But the rest of ...meh...I struggle....especially with Carver destroying canon to do what he wants. 

 

ETA: And I don't think Carver has a fucking clue how to use Castiel anymore....which is why I really worry about his longevity in the show. I'm really starting to think Cas will die before Crowley and that is just gonna piss me off. 

 

I just need Dean and Sam to be Big Damn Heroes again. Like actual heroes...:(. 

Edited January 19, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Having listened to the JAXCON videos, we had an interesting question/answer.  To summarize:

 

S4 question: if the boys were to find out today that back in S4, the phone message that Sam thought Dean left (where he called him a monster) was a fake, what would be their reaction.

 

J2 -- Jared first thought that they already KNEW that.  When corrected by the audience, he basically said that the boys had seen each other at their worst and still they keep supporting each other ... so it wouldn't be a big deal NOW.  Back then, it would have saved a lot of heartache.

 

I find it interesting because I think it's one of those things many fans (obviously including the one asking the question) felt should have been addressed and never was.  I don't think we are EVER going to get a real answer on why what Carver may have thought he was doing was not what actually happened.  As said above, they've now turned it into a joke (...Sam hit a dog ... in Fan Fiction).  I think when the show runner makes fun of his own storyline, that is as close to an acknowledgement of a misstep as we are EVER going to get from Carver. 

 

 

 

Also surprising (IMO)... Jensen said he liked S9.  Now the question was "which was the funnest (sic) to film" and after a long response regarding meeting Gen and Misha in S4... Jensen responded that he liked S4 as well but also mentioned S9.  This surprised me because I thought from a "fun" perspective, Jensen really struggled with S9 to the point of asking for a few days off. It was so very dark for Dean for a while.  Maybe with the passage of time he's remembering the good stuff. I know he really liked the Cain episode and he was jazzed by them making him a demon (I think Jensen was the only one ... bless his heart... who didn't see it coming).  

Edited January 19, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

s said above, they've now turned it into a joke (...Sam hit a dog ... in Fan Fiction).  I think when the show runner makes fun of his own storyline, that is as close to an acknowledgement of a misstep as we are EVER going to get from Carver.

 

I could buy that is Carver's way of blowing it off but the difference to me is that Kripke joked about a bad episode, I don't think he ever joked about a complete storyline or character destruction.  That's just another reason why Fan Fiction rubs me the wrong way. Like if I just remove it from canon and look at it as a one off bit of nostalgia, I can almost swallow it. 

 

The French Mistake poked fun at the idea of a show and actors etc, and MatEoTB mocked shitty episodes but I don't think either one was a joke about an entire characters arc and canon destruction.  Maybe Carver just doesn't have the deft touch to do that or he just wants to rewrite the show in his vision, which I still don't get.

[Omegamom]

In my imagination:

Carver: "Castiel? Who's Castiel? Oh. Yeah. The angel dude. He's still on the show?"

[AwesomO4000]

I don't think we are EVER going to get a real answer on why what Carver may have thought he was doing was not what actually happened.  As said above, they've now turned it into a joke (...Sam hit a dog ... in Fan Fiction).  I think when the show runner makes fun of his own storyline, that is as close to an acknowledgement of a misstep as we are EVER going to get from Carver. 

 

When I say that I think the initial reaction was suppose to be support Sam and his mature new outlook, I think the fan reaction changed it in  a quick heartbeat,  which would make sense in a way.

 

The rewrite comes from nowhere.  It's not organic at all.  So I can almost see the writers going, well our love interest has died, how can we save this.  Why don't we do this.  There is enough thread to make it work, kind of how Kripke did with the show Bugs. 

 

The fan reaction was not good towards Bugs, so he turned it into a joke in the later years.  It wasn't the initial plan.

 

I actually was more okay with Carver making it a joke later. I loved "Fanfiction" and as said above, at least it was a partial if veiled reference that they made a mistake - finally, though much too late to save it in season 8. The "joke" I was referring to was in that first episode. When Carver had Kevin's voice messages saying "Eeeeeat meeee" that was an obvious attempt at humor - and therefore making fun of that serious and character-damaging plot development. Which in my opinion was not funny in the least, and even the implication of having Sam not look for Kevin in order to have those "funny" voice messages offended me. It makes me wonder if Carver had Sam not look for Kevin partially so he could set up that "joke"... and if that is even partially the case, then there aren't words on how I would feel about that. And what words come close, let's just say that they would all be expletives.

 

I don't know if any of this makes in any sense at all to non actors/directors...But to me season 8 had this weird vibe shift that just didn't make sense.  Of course 8 may be my worst season ever, as  I don't even own it besides 6.

 

Oh, the tone shift was entirely bizarre. It all seemed like some sort of damage control or something. But that Carver attempted to course correct by just seeming tof forget the first half of the season annoys me... Just admit you messed up and do some real character damage control. In some ways, to this day, I still think that Carver thinks that Sam is mostly just a huge screw up - just like he has Garth suggest in "Sharp Teeth." There hasn't been a major plot development yet in Carver's era to convince me that's not the case.

 

As for the DVDs, I own season 8 only because it was only $10, and I like to be complete when possible. However, it and season 9 are the only seasons which still have the wrapper on the DVD - I haven't opened them yet. As for season 6, I've come to really like that season, especially if I skip the first couple of episodes. "Weekend At Bobby's" is great for me, and many of the episodes starting with "Clap Your Hands..." are good, and it got stronger for me as the season went on. "The Man Who Knew Too Much" is one of my favorite episodes for Sam of the entire series, and it has great Dean/Bobby and Dean/Castiel stuff as well. (I think it's underrated.)

 

As for the acting stuff, I'm weird. I understand that Jensen is a better actor, and I definitely think he has some truly amazing scenes, but I'm one of those weird people where that sometimes makes it more obvious for me. Like I can almost "see" the acting. I sometimes prefer Jared, because I don't necessarily notice his acting, it just is. For example, Jensen's slapstick stuff sometimes seems over the top, to me*, whereas - with the exception of "Swap Meat" - I like Jared's slapstick stuff. That likely won't make sense to anyone else either, so I understand your "this might not make sense" position.

 

* Not always. Example: "Clap Your Hands..." -  I loved Jensen in the "Space Oddity" scene where he "pizza-rolls" the fairy, but the "Fight the fairies" scene fell flat for me. Jared in that episode, though, had me laughing almost the whole time. I know that episode is definitely not for everybody, so no offense I hope.

 

I liked Lisa and Dean, but the season 8 love affair never felt real.  Maybe it wasn't suppose to be.

 

It didn't feel real to me either. As I said, for many episodes, I thought that it was a delusion in Sam's head.

[Omegamom]

Wow. I never, ever thought that Kevin's "Eeeeat meeee!" was supposed to be a joke. It was, to me, a punch in the gut, an indicator that Kevin had given up totally, and felt hopeless.

I thought, also, that Jensen's "return from Purgatory" persona was awesome. He was hyper-vigilant, on edge, giving the impression of a soldier with PTSD.

Now, the "hitting a dog" and Amelia...it didn't do much for me. No real chemistry. I can't remember...did Dean ever meet her? Or Cas? Or Kevin?

[7kstar]

Jensen does do slapstick, but that is the directors asking for it.  The example is the ep  Yellow Fever.  Jensen did it smaller and the director asked for it to be bigger.

 

I know Jensen can do simple comedy too, I've seen it in other shows, like Dark Angel where it isn't over the top.  I think they want him to go over the top, so he does.  Could it be more subtle...yeah at times I think it would be a better choice.

 

It reminds me of MASH...the first years the comedy is over the top, then it gets softer and for it, it gets better.  So I can see your point. 

 

To be honest I don't remember the "eat me"  so I can't really comment.  But IA with Sue B, that the closest we'll get to yeah I goofed, is fanfiction.

 

I also remember one of Jared's comments which I take to heart.  We mess up, and the fans forgive us.  We must, because we are still here.  LOL>

[auntvi]

but I'm one of those weird people where that sometimes makes it more obvious for me. Like I can almost "see" the acting.

 

 

I'm certainly not an expert, but I'll pretend to be. I saw Dustin Hoffman in Death of a Salesman at Lincoln Center and hated it (I know, call me a philistine). All I could see was D-U-S-T-I-N H-O-F-F-M-A-N playing Willy Loman. I had a similar reaction to Jensen in season 10, especially and somewhat in season 9. It's just too loud and over the top for me without much modulation. Maybe it's the writing and direction that are the problem ::cough cough hacks cough cough:: although I can't really tease that out.

 

So far this season, Dean is showing very, very little emotion which also is driving me crazy, because I want to know what the hell's going on with Amara. The show is usually exposition heavy, but here's a storyline that could really use it. IMHO 

 

 

 

[AwesomO4000]

Wow. I never, ever thought that Kevin's "Eeeeat meeee!" was supposed to be a joke. It was, to me, a punch in the gut, an indicator that Kevin had given up totally, and felt hopeless.

 

I may be remembering it wrongly, and that very much could've been the intent... Which still makes Sam's arc into a joke, but for a different reason. (explained below).

 

I agree with you in it not being funny. I certainly didn't think it was, but the way I saw it, Carver maybe intended it to be, because Kevin was drunk and going "whooo" and the messages came after he had escaped. The entire tone was telling Sam "screw you, for not answering my calls. I don't need you anyway."  It was reminiscent to me of the base humor like the "Dick" jokes in season 7. (Except that I personally found those funny. Sometimes I'm 12.). But even if I am incorrect about the attempt at humor - which is possible since I hated the first part of season 8 and I rarely if ever revisit it, so I could be remembering it wrongly - the message did seem to be implying that Carver - who wrote the episode - was saying that Sam deserved to be said "Eeeat meee" to. Which would then entirely contradict his supposed "Sam was being mature" explanation later, because with the "Eeeeat meeee" we have a totally contradictory neon sign either a) making a joke out of it, b) pointing to it as horrible or c) both.

 

And that makes a complete joke out of Sam's arc, because that seems to be saying that Sam making the "mature" decision wasn't what they intended from the very start, because here we have a very vocal voice mail pointing exactly to Sam's crappiness at abandoning Kevin, Dean pointing it out repeatedly, and Sam giving defensive responses to that. None of those things says to me "you should be sympathizing/agreeing with Sam here." At all. So, for me, it looks like they were trashing Sam on purpose, and the "mature" explanation was a joke (not a funny ha ha joke, but a joke as in a lame attempt.)

Edited January 19, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

I always thought Kevin was  either stoned and drunk when he called Sam. I don't think it was really supposed to be joke or to make light of Kevin's demise but was a darkly comic moment to  really drive home how messed up Kevin was because Sam abandoned him.

[mertensia]

Jared does comedy really well, especially when he gets to throw in exasperation ("nobody says penultimate!").

You know Carver could have saved the whole Amelia/not looking debacle with one single sentence from Sam about how the whole Dick Roman/ Crowley kidnaps Kevin fiasco sent him spiraling out of control until he ended up in Amelialand hiding from the truth.

[AwesomO4000]

You know Carver could have saved the whole Amelia/not looking debacle with one single sentence from Sam about how the whole Dick Roman/ Crowley kidnaps Kevin fiasco sent him spiraling out of control until he ended up in Amelialand hiding from the truth.

 

Exactly. That it would've been so simple to fix - either this way, or any of a dozen other simple ways - is one of the reasons why I wonder if Carver made Sam look badly on purpose in order to up the angst - because without a good reason expressed, this would then play on Dean's abandonment issues and we could have the whole "Benny is more trustworthy and loyal" conflict.

[shang yiet]

this would then play on Dean's abandonment issues and we could have the whole "Benny is more trustworthy and loyal" conflict.

 

I wonder how Carver thought Sam fans would react to that. The 'Benny the better brother' angle grated on my nerves.

 

On the other hand, I didn't dislike Sam (never could) because he didn't look for Dean. I already filled in the blanks with what I thought had happened based on what was inferred on the screen.. Sam had a nervous breakdown, went into denial and drove around shellshocked and numbed with grief. Nothing that happened went against my scenario.

 

It wasn't like I thought he went 'Dean? Who's that? Ah well, he's dead and gone. Never mind.Time to get on with my life. Cheers!' Did anyone think Sam would be that callous and unfeeling? So no hate here.

[mertensia]

Yeah my unofficial canon is Sam just couldn't cope and ran til he had to stop. It works for me.

[Myrelle]

I think that is WAS actually shown that Sam ran til he had to stop. Hunter Heroici was all about hammering that home for both Sam and Castiel, IMO. I think what confuses most people is Carver thinking of that as "mature" behavior and trying to sell it as mature behavior.

 

I also think there was a huge disconnect between how JP played the character and how Carver wanted Sam to come across to the audience in S8. I have often questioned JP's acting choices over the course of this series, but I've never seen them worse than they were in S8-10. Far too much anger, especially in S8, when he should have been more contrite. I know that the writing wasn't often there for that, but it could have been imbued in the character a little better through the actor's performance. I also felt this way in S10,  and maybe even more so, because IMO, Sam was actually written strictly in the supportive role for most of that season-a first on this show because always before he'd held a central myth arc role also, while they were trying to write him as supportive. At least in S9, he had the Gadreel possession as a reason to be angry, but his anger over Dean confiding and trusting in Benny(and apparently Castiel also, if his words in the church scene in Sacrifice are anything to go by) more than he confided and trusted in Sam? Bad choices all around there-in the writing because Sam never owned up to or regretted not even attempting to look for Dean AND the plain indifference/non-mention from Sam and within the writing, of Benny having actually become someone who Dean would and could realistically have learned to trust, yes, even over Sam-especially in that season because of the aforementioned Sam's lack of even trying to look for Dean AND Sam's lousy attitude over Dean's return-which I feel could have been softened considerably by JP if he'd thought about his character and his character's role that season a little more.

 

It was as if Sam equated Dean with nothing but hunting that season and even though he'd already left Amelia before Dean's return, we were supposed to again see Dean as having pulled Sam back into the life and again ruining his chance at normalcy and happiness, while completely glossing over every poor choice that Sam had made that season that directly impacted Dean. Torn and Frayed is one of *my* all-time least favorite episodes and that scene where Charlie chastised Dean for that pretty much put a last nail in the coffin of any hope for Sam finally being called out on the idea that maybe Dean doesn't confide in or trust  Sam as much as Sam would like him to for good reason. It was the same as S4 to many in the Dean fandom-a total(and totally redundant) mess of  the combined writing and JP's poor acting choices that resulted in yet another sweeping under the carpet of Sam's worst faults and flaws within the brothers' relationship that also add to the dysfunction and Dean's inability to be able to trust Sam. Dean is STILL usually waiting for the other shoe to drop with Sam and there's been little reason for him not to still be feeling that way. Not IMO, anyway. Perhaps they should address that as part of the reason why Dean isn't comfortable asking for help. Because when too many others are involved the chance of secrets and lies increases also-or he might be looked upon as "weak" if he's unable to perform the duties that he'd always previously been able to perform on his own and/or that he'd been expected to perform on his own(by both John and Sam) and that also did not allow for his feelings about anything to interfere with, not in any way.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

In Jared's defense, how he played Sam must have been at least close to how the show wanted him to play it, or it wouldn't have been fairly consistent throughout the episodes, where none of the directors changed anything. (At least I think that's how that works).

 

And also in his defense, I'm not sure how even Jensen would've made similar material that much more sympathetic. I wonder what would've happened if they'd had a storyline where Dean didn't look for Sam and abandoned one of their friends... I think the closest type storyline was Dean wiping Lisa and Ben's memory, and I don't think even Jensen made that plot decision better for me (unpopular opinion: I found Dean's threatening to punch Sam in the face about it just jerky rather than more deserved). Sam's complaint was a little insensitive, but considering that Sam knew what it was like to have his brain messed with, I understood where he was coming from, too. But even Jensen's attempt to play it with "It was the only thing I could think of, Sam, so how about a little freakin' sympathy?" in the delivery, didn't really soften the impact of the words written for me, so there is only so much that can be done with the material sometimes without it conflicting or looking inconsistent. And I was offended for Dean with that plot point also, since it was mostly a way to make Lisa and Ben go away easily at the expense of Dean's character.

[Omegamom]

The Lisa/Ben amnesia thing is also logically unsound. They were captured and toyed with not because of their knowledge of Dean, but because of his love for them. Their not knowing who the hell Dean was wouldn't make a lick of difference to Dean's enemies. Might actually make it better, having him all desperate, then finding them and have them going "who are you?!" would be just an extra helping of painful whipped cream on the pain-filled cake.

[catrox14]

I think part of why much of the sympathy that should have landed with Sam, ended up with Dean because of how Jensen plays layers. I feel like with Dean, Jensen carries Dean's entire history in how he plays Dean. I rarely feel like I see JENSEN other than maybe when he's doing the really broad comedy moments like Dog Dean Afternoon or Halt and Catch Fire or the screaming at the cat in Yellow Fever.  (Sidebar: I think Yellow Fever is one of Jensen's top 10 performances in the entire series precisely because he did underplay the fear and anxiety aside from the loud screaming at the cat which the director wanted. )

 

This isn't just specific to Dean either. Watching him in Dark Angel, he played layers there in a character that was IMO a lot less likeable at the start than  Dean. For me first half of s1 Dean and the first 4 episodes of S3 are the least likeable regular!Deans. But there was always something else that Jensen adds whether he intends to or not I don't know but there is ALWAYS something under the surface.

 

A glint in his eye or a small facial movement that always seems internal to me and gave/gives Alec McDowell and Dean something different. I wish I could articulate it better but I feel like there is always an inner life with Jensen's characters even Jason Teague in Smallville.

 

I think Jared does that when he's playing Other than Sam. And I don't know why that is. One thing Jared said is that he used to give Sam more backstory in his head..and then he'd get a script that completely subverted what his head!canon was about Sam so he' stopped doing that and he plays what's on the page more now.  He's also said he HATES it when it's written into a script how Sam is supposed to react. Like it will say "Sam cries" but Jared has protested against that saying it's artificial and that in a given moment he'll know whether Sam would cry or not. 

 

So maybe Jared just couldn't wrap his own head!canon about Sam not looking for Dean or Kevin and he played it from the script. I would actually really love to see the script for those episodes. Like was it written in how Sam should react or be.

 

Does it say (Sam looks annoyed with Dean):  "Dean, I quit hunting".

If it does then maybe Jared played it that way.  If it's a choice Jared made that wasn't scripted then that's on him.

 

I still think we were supposed to side-eye Dean but good about being friends with a vampire. I think though that maybe the chemistry between Jensen and Ty came through so we LIKED them together. Then we learn how they came to be friends but of course Sam doesn't know that and Dean isn't telling so Sam is feeling annoyed that Dean is keeping secrets.

 

Like I guess intellectually I think I understand maybe what Carver was trying to do, but the execution was a mess?  But then I flip back to well maybe this is how Carver really sees the brothers. I mean he's set them up to be kind of awful people in s8 and he's done things to them that are kind of unforgivable.  

 

But you know maybe I shouldn't be blaming Carver as much as Singer and Buck Lemming.  Because Singer has said some shitty things about Dean calling him "mentally deficient" and stupid etc. I dunno..It's perplexing for sure.

 

I was watching Blade Runners on DVD and listening to the commentary from Buck Lemming and man I wanted to spit nails by then end. Buckner said that having a straight up hero is boring and Lemming said that Dean's reaction to the Blade the way it took him over was because Dean actually liked it and it was connecting to a place that was always under the surface, that it's in his DNA to be a killer. I think she realized what she was implying and tried to walk it back with saying he's a warrior.  But honestly, I think that is what they think of Dean. Either that or they want to make him this dark character which is fine but maybe let him still be a hero you know?   I mean it's okay for the show to have two actual heroes. If Kripke envisioned Luke and Han Solo for Sam and Dean well guess what, they were both heroes in their own way.

 

But I'm not convinced Carver et al see it that way.  I dunno...I guess I'm still waiting to understand why they put Dean through the shit they put him through the past 2 seasons.

[DittyDotDot]

If anything, wiping their memories only made Ben and Lisa in more danger because now they didn't have any knowledge on how to protect themselves or who to call for help. Don't even get me started on how it makes no sense that one person can actually be erased while keeping everything else in-tact. Or that there are other people who this person interacted with who would also remember...sorry, I wasn't going to get started. ;)

 

Anyway, I hate memory-wipe storylines--they are so stupid--they don't actually make any sense and are only useful to lazy writers, IMO.

[SueB]

IDK about how much was Jared's choice. I remember at the end of Southern Comfort, when Sam says 'enough with the guilt-tripping or I'm outta here', those were script lines. Many people didn't like that but personally I thought Sam was right to say something. Dean was being pretty passive/aggressive with the running commentary for 4 episodes prior. Then Dean just unloads on Sam. And Sam knows the words came from the angry ghost but he also feels that what the ghost said wasn't too far off the mark regarding how Dean was feeling.

IMO the passive/aggressive shit needed to stop. Dean either needed to talk about what was bothering him (and it was more than not looking for Kevin) and push for a better explanation. If he wasn't going to do that, the chunter method of verbal abuse was not working to get him (Dean) what he needed. Sam was not offering an explanation that satisfied Dean. So, Since the boys were still shit in S8 about actual communication over their feelings, at least not continuing to chew on it without resolving anything seemed like a better answer to me. Now in S11, I think they communicate better so I wouldn't expect a repeat.

Perhaps what Carver thought was mature was at least Sam stopped accepting the verbal beatings. It was the equivalent of beating a dead horse and it didn't really make Dean feel better. Of course, acknowledging to Dean how shakey he was would have been the far superior answer. But this is little brother Sam --who does not give Big Brother Dean any ammunition to have less confidence in him.

[Aeryn13]

 

IMO the passive/aggressive shit needed to stop. Dean either needed to talk about what was bothering him (and it was more than not looking for Kevin) and push for a better explanation.

 

In his little speech Sam also declared that he had given his explanation and scene. So the case was closed for him and Dean didn`t deserve anything better. Or anything at all. Then he snottily called the matter over or he would leave. What was Dean supposed to do? Apparently he had to take Sam`s attitude of "your being alive ruins my day" but Sam on the other hand doesn`t have to take the very logical follow-up of "shithead"? Works out quite well in Sam`s favour then. 

 

Perhaps what Carver thought was mature was at least Sam stopped accepting the verbal beatings.

 

It rankles that this is always such a one-way street on the show. Dean has to learn to compromise or doormat whereas Sam is applauded and mature for "standing up for himself". Why is Dean not allowed the same courtesy then? If that were me, Sam would have cried suicide years before because it is not only actually easy to crush egos of people with that behaviour and attitude that I see in Sam but if taunted enough, I will happily do so, too. 

 

And I do have to agree that the delivery of said attitude is one of my biggest problems. If the character is supposed to feel regretful underneath and maybe just lashes out in anger to mask it, there is a way to get that across. To me, Sam felt completely righteous and unfairly victimized that Dean had the gall to not be happy over not only being written off but met with said "I had such a good life, damnit, apologize for being back" attitude.  

 

That`s why I didn`t buy the "had a breakdown" headcanon stuff. I don`t only blame it on the acting, that would be unfair, as the lackluster flashbacks and writing wasn`t there either. But if I already hate the lines as written, then it does not help if they are performed in the most straightforward way possible. That just makes me hate them more. 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

I'm not seeing the passive-aggressiveness from Dean on this matter.  From 8.1 from the get go, Dean was pretty damn direct from with expressing his anger and disappointment when he learned Sam didn't look for him or Kevin. I think he remained resentful because Sam didn't really apologize or explain it well to Dean other than "I just fixed up the car and drove because for all I knew my whole family was dead".  There was something in how Jared played that moment that I still think...WTF were they going for there.

 

Sam seemed so...I dunno, petulant (?) when Dean got in his face about it.  For me, it comes back to whether it was direction from the script on how Sam would react or Jared's choice. Like I don't know if Jared was going for Sam feeling guilty for his choices so he was super defensive which made him appear kind of callous about it.  Or if he was upset that he was leaving Amelia behind once Dean was back and intact. Or that he was just upset with Dean for being upset with him.

 

I just don't get what the heck they were going for there at all. But ultimately, I didn't get much passive aggressiveness from Dean. JMHO

Edited January 19, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I think they wiped Ben's and Lisa's memories simply because they couldn't think of what else to do with them to make them go away, permanently.  If they'd killed them both off, that would have been awful, but they didn't want that connection there for Dean anymore, so they contrived the stupid memory wipe as a way out.  Not very well thought out, obviously.  The biggest issue I have with this show is the bad (or at least inconsistent) writing.  

 

I get frustrated because the concept is there for this to be a great show, but the writing just doesn't measure up most of the time.  I tend to forget who their target audience is.  

 

Did they ever really explain what Sam was planning to do when he returned to the cabin after leaving Amelia?  He left without saying goodbye, so was his intention to return to her, or was he leaving her for good?  And if he was leaving for good, what was he going to do?  He obviously didn't know Dean was going to be waiting for him.  That whole storyline was badly written, I thought.  It definitely did not paint Sam in a positive light.

[catrox14]

See, I always thought Sam was going there to meet up with Dean. I mean was it jsut a massive coincidence that they both went there? I dunno. I think Sam knew Dean was there and when Dean tackled him that's what took him by surprise.