Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[DeeDee79]

On 5/22/2022 at 3:38 PM, Nick24 said:

OMG! I didn't know that! Really impressive. Now I have to rewatch First Born keeping that revelation in mind.

On 5/22/2022 at 3:13 PM, DeeDee79 said:

Yes, his stunt double was playing one of the demons that he was fighting during the kitchen scene. It's the guy without the trucker cap.

[FlickChick]

On 5/22/2022 at 2:38 PM, Nick24 said:

OMG! I didn't know that! Really impressive. Now I have to rewatch First Born keeping that revelation in mind.

That quote is referring to Dean (Jensen) doing his own fighting in "First Born". The "demon" that he was fighting until the end and killed on the table was Jensen's stunt double. Or as DeeDee said while I was typing! :)

[Nick24]

This might be very UO, but I loved Dean's growling voice (incl. Demon!Dean's). It sounded like rock music to me 😃

Edited May 24, 2022 by Nick24

[tessathereaper]

Quote

The only EP I probably hate more than Dabb is Robert Singer. From all I've read, it seems like he was responsible for most of the worst decisions on the show like dropping Dean's SL (Purgatory, Demon!Dean), making Cas beat Dean to death in 5.18, etc. I wouldn't be surprised, if that crap in 15.20 is his idea.

Don't know whether it was his idea specifically, probably was, but he was SUPER excited about it.  It was the first thing they decided before anything else, they were going to kill Dean in the finale and they thought it was the bestest idea ever.  It sounds like they were downright giddy about it from what they've said.

[gonzosgirrl]

Singer directed, presumably watched the dailies of, and allowed the abomination that was the Michael/Dean - Lucifer marionette battle to go to air. Tells me all I need to know about him.

[ahrtee]

30 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Singer directed, presumably watched the dailies of, and allowed the abomination that was the Michael/Dean - Lucifer marionette battle to go to air. Tells me all I need to know about him.

I also blame him for everything from the nepotism duo.  He may not have been responsible for their writing but he certainly sanctioned it.  

[Nick24]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Singer directed, presumably watched the dailies of, and allowed the abomination that was the Michael/Dean - Lucifer marionette battle to go to air. Tells me all I need to know about him.

Oh God, that was awful. The whole Season 5 they were saying that Lucifer/Michael fight would destroy the world (that is why Dean was saying no to Michael), but in 13.23 even church windows remained intact

And then we got slow-mo in the bar with SuperSam yelling at demons instead of Dean!Michael :(

[roamyn]

On 5/20/2022 at 7:13 PM, Nick24 said:

Another opinion.

I am also angry how they ended Amara in s15. I mean, she was locked away for how much time? Apparently for no actual reason. Then she turned out to be much better than most of their so-called protagonists...And what did they finally do to her? They locked her inside that Jack. When she just wanted to enjoy her life after Dean showed her another options in 11.23. Apparently, freedom and free will do not exist, if your name is either Amara or Dean.

I don’t like what they did to her character in S15.

OG Death said she was an amoral force.  She constantly went on a rampage killing people and threatened to destroy the universe in S11.

All of a sudden in S15 she’s what, playing Keno?!  They wimpified her, just as much as they destroyed Chuck’s character w/pettiness, and nearly destroyed Dean’s.

[roamyn]

On 5/23/2022 at 6:37 PM, Nick24 said:

Some thoughts.

In 14.19 Jack was making angels from humans. OK. So, if per Dabb his Jack was so good, so kind, so grateful, so awesome.....why didn't he turn Dean and Sam into angels?? It could have been useful in S15 with their Chuck nonsense and after that with saving people/hunting things, especially considering that Jack didn't bother to get rid of monsters...oh, and btw, where was that paradise on Earth they promised in 12.19 The Future?

Oh, sure, I again forgot, that logic left the building, when Dabb took over. Sorry. 

I think the Paradise was meant to mean the restructuring of Heaven, and Cas misinterpreted it.

After all they’d been through, do you honestly think Sam & Dean would want to be angels?  If Jack even asked, I’m sure Dean would tell him to stick his suggestion where the sun don’t shine.

15 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Singer directed, presumably watched the dailies of, and allowed the abomination that was the Michael/Dean - Lucifer marionette battle to go to air. Tells me all I need to know about him.

And it could’ve been done well.  Lucifer managed a gorgeous aerial Luci/Michael fight.  Of course Lucifer also has the better angel wings.

[Nick24]

48 minutes ago, roamyn said:

I think the Paradise was meant to mean the restructuring of Heaven, and Cas misinterpreted it.

I disagree. I think that Mr Dabb (and Singer) just decided to forget their own seasons in order to write that insulting finale.

Why would Cas misinterpret it? Only if it was another round of dumbing down the character

[roamyn]

1 minute ago, Nick24 said:

55 minutes ago, roamyn said:

I disagree. I think that Mr Dabb (and Singer) just decided to forget their own seasons in order to write that insulting finale.

Why would Cas misinterpret it? Only if it was another round of dumbing down the character

Because Cas always misinterprets things.  At least he did in later seasons.  In this case, I don’t believe it’s in the negative, because a Jack did create s Heavenly Paradise. (I just happened to watch ‘The Future’ today)

That’s okay you disagree.  That’s what so great abt this show. So many things happened and the lord & mythology are so dense, that we can interpret different ways, but still get to the same end point.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, roamyn said:

After all they’d been through, do you honestly think Sam & Dean would want to be angels?  If Jack even asked, I’m sure Dean would tell him to stick his suggestion where the sun don’t shine.

I don't know that. Jack could have suggested. In order to defeat Chuck and get rid of monsters and keep humanity safe while JackNewGod would be playing hands-off (just like Chuck was playing before Dabb threw him under the bus), why not? But again, it wouldn't have let them to finally destroy the show and the characters in 15.20

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, roamyn said:

Because Cas always misinterprets things.  At least he did in later seasons.  In this case, I don’t believe it’s in the negative, because a Jack did create s Heavenly Paradise. (I just happened to watch ‘The Future’ today)

Canadian forest is not Paradise in my book. That was just Dabb's lack of imagination. Again.

More than that, if there is Paradise in Heaven, where everyone can be happy and do everything they want to, why would live on Earth in the first place? With so many problems, monsters, etc. Why not just die happily? I've said it before and I'll say it again - Dabb and Singer sent a terrible message to the audience, that ruined the whole point of "Keep fighting'' ''Never give up'', ''Freedom and choice'', ''Fighting destiny'',  which this show was about pre-Dabb

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

44 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Because Cas always misinterprets things.

IMO Cas was misinterpreting things when the writers needed it to move the plot.

Btw, I don't remember Cas misinterpreting things in Season 4, when he first appeared.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

4 hours ago, roamyn said:

I don’t like what they did to her character in S15.

OG Death said she was an amoral force.  She constantly went on a rampage killing people and threatened to destroy the universe in S11.

IMO Amara wasn't being an amoral force in S11. Even back there she was much better than Chuck. Yes, she killed plenty of humans. But hadn't Sam/Dean? Hadn't Cas (Hi, Godstiel)? Hadn't Crowley? Meg? 

IMO Cas and Sam were much more of a threat to the universe than Amara had ever been. S4, S6, S10 Finales are the best examples.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

Hm, now I wanna see Dean/Crowley/Benny spinoff with occasional Amara appearances 😄

[roamyn]

6 hours ago, Nick24 said:

IMO Amara wasn't being an amoral force in S11. Even back there she was much better than Chuck. Yes, she killed plenty of humans. But hadn't Sam/Dean? Hadn't Cas (Hi, Godstiel)? Hadn't Crowley? Meg? 

IMO Cas and Sam were much more of a threat to the universe than Amara had ever been. S4, S6, S10 Finales are the best examples.

I completely disagree abt Amara in S11.  She purposely killed humans to get Chuck’s attention.   She also purposely killed them with the fog. Sam & Dean never purposely killed any humans that weren’t possessed.  There may have been accidental deaths in the line of work, but never on purpose.  Also it was OG Death that said she was amoral, not me.  She also continuously stated, until the season finale, that she wanted to destroy Chuck’s creations (minus Dean).

How to believe that her wimpishness in S15 was the same character?  That was all Dabb & his writer’s doing.  And I hated it.  I wanted the strong, forceful Amara back.  She was strong in decision making for ONE episode - when she walked out on Chuck.  

Of course all this would’ve been moot, if Sam hadn’t gone behind Dean’s back to release the MoC.  LOL

9 hours ago, Nick24 said:

IMO Cas was misinterpreting things when the writers needed it to move the plot.

Btw, I don't remember Cas misinterpreting things in Season 4, when he first appeared.

True, it was all on the writers.  Plus his powers came & went willy nilly.  Again, on the writers.

I did state that he misinterpreted things in later seasons, implying that he never did in earlier seasons.

[Nick24]

1 minute ago, roamyn said:

 She also continuously stated, until the season finale, that she wanted to destroy Chuck’s creations (minus Dean).

She said right the opposite in 11.09:

From 11.09  O Brother Where Art Thou?

Quote

AMARA:  I tried praying, calling out in need. He ignored me. He forced my hand. I had no other reason to harm his chosen. My issue is with my brother, not his creation.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, roamyn said:

How to believe that her wimpishness in S15 was the same character?  That was all Dabb & his writer’s doing.  And I hated it.  I wanted the strong, forceful Amara back.  She was strong in decision making for ONE episode - when she walked out on Chuck.

I agree with your whole post, and this especially. Just another example of the terrible writing and lack on continuity when the writers don't even seem to be aware of what others have written. There is character growth and then there is ret-conning and blatant disregard for anything that has come before. Yet another reason why I roll my eyes at the notion that the prequel could somehow 'destroy' canon and the integrity of the show. You can't destroy something that doesn't exist.

[Nick24]

4 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Also it was OG Death that said she was amoral, not me.  

I never said, that you said something like that. 

I said, that imo she wasn't behaving as totally amoral force in S11. She was more neutral in my opinion.

[roamyn]

5 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

She said right the opposite in 11.09:

From 11.09  O Brother Where Art Thou?

And I’ll counter with Dean’s telling Chuck that she wants to destroy it “I’ve seen it myself”.  From one of the last episodes of the season.  Which is after 11.09.

She also said she was jealous of his creations, many times.

And if she didn’t want to destroy it, why bring on fog to kill humans?  

[Nick24]

The problem with Amara in S11, that imo it seemed like the writers had no idea what to do with her. They bit off more than they could chew. 

[Nick24]

10 minutes ago, roamyn said:

And I’ll counter with Dean’s telling Chuck that she wants to destroy it “I’ve seen it myself”.  From one of the last episodes of the season.  Which is after 11.09.

She also said she was jealous of his creations, many times.

And if she didn’t want to destroy it, why bring on fog to kill humans?  

I never said, that she did not want to destroy the universe. Someone always does. 😄

But that does not make her more amoral than any other character in my book. And the problem is not in Amara herself, the problem is the horrible execution of her arc, because for instance after 11.10 we did not see her until 11.18, because, well, they were more interested in Lucifer rising 2.0. She never felt as a villain to me.

ETA: At some point I was even rooting for her. After all she was being Dean's fan😁

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

22 minutes ago, roamyn said:

I did state that he misinterpreted things in later seasons, implying that he never did in earlier seasons.

My apologies. I did not notice :(

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, roamyn said:

True, it was all on the writers.  Plus his powers came & went willy nilly.  Again, on the writers.

Oh, you just reminded me about Castiel situation in S14 Premiere, where he all of a sudden lost his ability to see demons and became even weaker than them only in order to wait his SuperSam The Savior whom all the demons were afraid of more than they were of the angels, because of...well, Sam's pretty hair and fascinating ability to yell at them.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

On 5/25/2022 at 2:42 PM, Nick24 said:

Oh, you just reminded me about Castiel situation in S14 Premiere, where he all of a sudden lost his ability to see demons and became even weaker than them only in order to wait his SuperSam The Savior whom all the demons were afraid of more than they were of the angels, because of...well, Sam's pretty hair and fascinating ability to yell at them.

Oh Chuck how I hated those scenes, and still do.

And seriously, Kip, don’t go trying to emulate Crowley.  There’s only one Mark Sheppard.  That writers made me so angry that rather than create their own voice, they cheapened the Kip character by making him a Crowley rip off.

[Nick24]

15 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Oh Chuck how I hated those scenes, and still do.

I have no idea who might like it. That was more than stupid. 

15 minutes ago, roamyn said:

That writers made me so angry that rather than create their own voice, they cheapened the Kip character by making him a Crowley rip off.

Once again, Dabb's lack of creativity and imagination. IMO his seasons were mostly ''copy and paste'' from Kripke/Gamble/Carver.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Once again, Dabb's lack of creativity and imagination. IMO his seasons were mostly ''copy and paste'' from Kripke/Gamble/Carver.

While also gleefully erasing everything that the previous showrunners did that was vastly superior to the dreck that he churned out.

[Nick24]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

While also gleefully erasing everything that the previous showrunners did that was vastly superior to the dreck that he churned out.

Because apparently Dabb did not know, that original content is almost always much better than some imitation. 

[Nick24]

26 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Once again, Dabb's lack of creativity and imagination. IMO his seasons were mostly ''copy and paste'' from Kripke/Gamble/Carver.

22 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

While also gleefully erasing everything that the previous showrunners did that was vastly superior to the dreck that he churned out.

For instance, 14.20 was just a rip off of so many early episodes:

- Everyone starts saying only the truth. Been there in Season 6 with some goddess 

- Jack the superpowerful being going mad. Been there with Godstiel

- Soulless Jack. Been there with Sam

- Chuck's magic gun. Just Colt 2.0... or 3.0??

- Dean standing before Jack and considering killing him because Chuck wants him to, Jack looking at him with his puppy dog eyes and Dean finally refusing to do it. Just a TOTAL rip off of 10.23 Brother's Keeper. Jack = Sam, Chuck = Death, gun = scythe.

- Chuck throwing Dean towards the tombstone. A rip off of 2.22 where Azazel did the same.

In 15.20 that scene in the barn was a rip off of 9.23, an awful one.

We can go on and on. 

IMO Dabb might've been jealous of previous showrunners' greater success and that is why imo he was parasitizing on earlier seasons and ruining them at the same time. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

In 15.20 that scene in the barn was a rip off of 9.23, an awful one.

While I agree with your previous points, I don't believe this point is true.

Dean was killed by Metatron, and he was stabbed w/an angel blade, not pushed onto a rebar.

Also he never gave an impassioned speech so Sam would let him go.

While I believe the manner of death was far superior in 09.23, the goodbye between S&D was superior in 15.20.

But then again, I'm one of the few Dean girls who liked 15.20.

[Aeryn13]

3 hours ago, roamyn said:

While I agree with your previous points, I don't believe this point is true.

Dean was killed by Metatron, and he was stabbed w/an angel blade, not pushed onto a rebar.

Also he never gave an impassioned speech so Sam would let him go.

While I believe the manner of death was far superior in 09.23, the goodbye between S&D was superior in 15.20.

But then again, I'm one of the few Dean girls who liked 15.20.

The speech could have been written in a manner that wasn't like Dean going "yup, I always was weak and pathetic and crawled to you but you are so awesome and wonderful and so much better than me in every way, live your life, Sam" to which Sam replied...nothing aka agreement in the way it was played. If the intent was just to get Sam to let go, other words could gave been found. Maybe something to acknowledge Dean had a legacy, though they woud have needed to give him one first and not kill him the day after Chuck's protection vanished. Was he supposed to look like the most incompetent hunter in his own?

[Nick24]

16 hours ago, roamyn said:

While I agree with your previous points, I don't believe this point is true.

Dean was killed by Metatron, and he was stabbed w/an angel blade, not pushed onto a rebar.

Also he never gave an impassioned speech so Sam would let him go.

While I believe the manner of death was far superior in 09.23, the goodbye between S&D was superior in 15.20.

But then again, I'm one of the few Dean girls who liked 15.20.

I meant more about, what that scene looked like. 

- Brothers facing each other. The same was in 9.23

- Talkies/goodbye scene.  In 9.23 it was organic, in 15.20 too much

- Finally Dean's head falls on Sam's shoulder. The same in 9.23

- And again ''I have to say sth...''

So yes, I believe they took wonderful 9.23 scene and turned it into sth horrible in 15.20

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Maybe something to acknowledge Dean had a legacy, though they woud have needed to give him one first and not kill him the day after Chuck's protection vanished. Was he supposed to look like the most incompetent hunter in his own?

I will concur there.  Sam should’ve acknowledged all Dean has done.  That did make my heart hurt, that Sam couldn’t repay the favor.

4 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

I meant more about, what that scene looked like. 

- Brothers facing each other. The same was in 9.23

- Talkies. But in 9.23

Okay, I understand what you mean.

But the direction of his death scene is actually on Jensen.  Dabb wanted him on the floor, Jensen told Bob that Dean should die standing, and Jared concurred.  Besides, Dean would’ve bled out before he finished his speech, and both guys stayed that scene.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

The speech could have been written in a manner that wasn't like Dean going "yup, I always was weak and pathetic and crawled to you but you are so awesome and wonderful and so much better than me in every way, live your life, Sam" to which Sam replied...nothing aka agreement in the way it was played. If the intent was just to get Sam to let go, other words could gave been found. Maybe something to acknowledge Dean had a legacy, though they woud have needed to give him one first and not kill him the day after Chuck's protection vanished. Was he supposed to look like the most incompetent hunter in his own?

IMO Dabb would have rather jumped on that nail himself than acknowledged Dean's legacy. 

[Nick24]

3 minutes ago, roamyn said:

But the direction of his death scene is actually on Jensen.  Dabb wanted him on the floor, Jensen told Bob that Dean should die standing, and Jared concurred.  Besides, Dean would’ve bled out before he finished his speech, and both guys stayed that scene.

Now I loathe him even more. 

Singer could have made it look different, if Dabb did not care. But apparently Singer did not care either.

[Nick24]

5 hours ago, roamyn said:

While I believe the manner of death was far superior in 09.23, the goodbye between S&D was superior in 15.20.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

The speech could have been written in a manner that wasn't like Dean going "yup, I always was weak and pathetic and crawled to you but you are so awesome and wonderful and so much better than me in every way, live your life, Sam" to which Sam replied...nothing aka agreement in the way it was played. If the intent was just to get Sam to let go, other words could gave been found. Maybe something to acknowledge Dean had a legacy, though they woud have needed to give him one first and not kill him the day after Chuck's protection vanished. Was he supposed to look like the most incompetent hunter in his own?

Pretty much everything @Aeryn13 said. But I also want to point out, that in 9.23 Dean was allowed to say ''I am proud of US'', which was great character growth. Finally. That fact alone made 9.23 death scene (incl. goodbye speech) very powerful and very important for Dean, because he finally acknowledged his own value. 

Also in 3.16 Dean was allowed to say:

Quote

DEAN: And remember what I taught you.

IMO that phrase highlighted Dean's legacy in a way.

15.20 goodbye speech was overwritten and overmelodramatic and was made imo in order to:

1) Manipulate the viewers

2) Prop up Sam and humiliate Dean

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[BornToDie]

I’m not surprised that this show has been done for TWO years and there are still fans who act as if Sam and Dean are real people and not fictional characters on a tv show.  Fans need to start thinking of the fact that these are two rich white men who are getting paid lots of money to say words written by someone else, when it comes down to it.

[tessathereaper]

Yes they are actors.  Pretty sure you aren't telling anyone anything.  Actors bring those words to life, if not those tv and film writers would be novelists instead.  So I would assume they WANT actors to say their words and bring them to life and bring things to them even they didn't think of.  Actors are artists just as much as anyone else involved in tv,films and plays.

[7kstar]

On 9/7/2022 at 7:46 PM, BornToDie said:

I’m not surprised that this show has been done for TWO years and there are still fans who act as if Sam and Dean are real people and not fictional characters on a tv show.

Not sure why you felt the need to insult...And I'm sure the fans are aware that they are actors that got a nice profit off the show.

I watch a show because I care about the characters.  But I also know what it takes to act/direct.  So your point is mute.  Go be negative elsewhere.  As you stated, the show is over.  If you don't care about the characters, spend your time doing something you like.  No need to attack or try to be insulting.

[BornToDie]

The title of this thread is about bitterness and unpopular opinions, which is what I posted.  So, yeah, that’s why there’s negativity in my post.  I also wanted to add that there are a number of fans who engage in a lot of parasocialization with Jared and Jensen, which is just as bad.  I don’t think l’m insulting anyone.  I’ve been watching this show since Season 2 and they’re just observations from my involvement in this fandom.