Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

Demented Daisy · December 8, 2014

They can't win either way :(.

But that's my point. It's why I didn't mention a specific fringe group -- there are too many of them. They can't focus on trying to keep everyone happy because it will never happen. Instead, focus on telling a good story. Some will be happy, some will be upset, hell, some will be angry.

I don't either but I do believe if they had hard data to show that a fringe group of fans were making the network money through viewing, buying merchandise, attending cons, and patronizing sponsors, then they will court that fringe group until the very end. No one messes with the almighty dollar. So if a certain segment of fandom had any kind of monetary pull, I can see that affecting the stories.

If that hard data is available, I'd love to see it. Since the SPN fandom is small (in comparison to others, anyway), I concede that a small group could have a relatively large impact. But that should be true of all the factions, not just one.

While I don't like to categorize myself, I will say that:

I'm a "Dean girl" in that I'm female and prefer Dean.
I am not a shipper and honestly don't care who anyone is with, regardless of sexual orientation.
I'm not an "original" fan of the show; I came to it in S3 or 4, I can't be sure.
I like Dean and Castiel's relationship as friends/brothers who need each other's support.
I care more about the story/plot than the relationships between the characters. (In other words, if any of the main characters left the show, I would continue to watch.)

(Any categories I missed?)

I don't know if this makes me a minority in the fandom, but the magic of the show, IMO, is that we can all watch it and enjoy it from our own perspective. If TPTB are too concerned with making any particular group happy, they run the risk of alienating a whole lot more than just one group.

As always, mileage varies.

catrox14 · December 8, 2014

I mentioned it because that is what I was talking about in the Spec thread. And short of those that want Brothers Only with them not having any actual friends or love relationships, Destiel divides the fanbase the most from what I've seen in my short 1 or so in the SPN Family. I've seen Destiel blamed for why the brothers were at odds the past couple of seasons...which LOLWUT? No that's not why the brothers were at odds. I've seen lack of Destiel blamed for why Dean allowed an angel to possess Sam...again LOLWUT?

I just hope they never bring up the Samulet again :P

rue721 · December 8, 2014

I think that the loud anti-Destiel contingent isn't the only group that the show would be worried about -- afaik, this is one of the more male-skewing shows on the CW, and I think that producers would be worried about alienating the straight male fans, too. Plus they probably don't want to alienate all the fans that don't want to see Dean with any love interest, let alone a male one, which is a surprisingly large contingent imo.

The total lack of a male love interest on Constantine (afaik) was the final nail in the coffin of me thinking that producers would be OK with a queer male main character in a non-ensemble show that's also supposed to bring in a male audience, tbh. That show has even edged toward getting Constantine smoking on camera, and yet afaik it doesn't seem to have any plans to introduce a male LI -- if NBC is more willing to have an anti-hero lead smoke on screen than get in bed or even really flirt afaik with a man, and that for a character who canonically has had male LIs anyway, then there's just zero percent chance that a fairly similar but even more staid show like SPN is going to introduce a male LI for one of its leads imo. To be fair, though, I've dropped off watching Constantine, so for all I know, he's gotten like fifty boyfriends and male LIs in the last episode and a half. Doubt it, but can't say for sure.

Personally, I don't really care which way they go with Destiel, the friendship stuff is what I care about whether they're also a couple or not. That really goes for any couple, I'm just boring like that, a hopelessly dull shipper. Destiel in a romantic sense in particular has never actually seemed to be on the table, though, they seem like they've been really consistent with that -- I don't even agree with the "queer baiting" thing w/r/t SPN frankly. (Well, actually, I have more of an issue with Crowley in that sense, though I also wouldn't call that "queer baiting" per se. Idk what that is. He seems like he's a closeted, out of touch old man, doesn't he? Which is fine, it actually works OK for the character at this point imo. But if he's not, wtf is going on with all the constant awkwardly homophobic and misogynist jokes on his part? I don't have a problem with it really, dude's a demon, of course he's weird and off-putting, and he's also like 300 years old at this point (god even knows how old in hell years!), I just don't get where they're trying to go with it. Anyway). FWIW, I will say that I also watch Teen Wolf, so maybe I've been ruined by the massive queer baiting they were doing on that show for a while there, lol. Everything else looks tame in comparison now, maybe.

There have been some shows that seem like they're really going down the road of hooking up a male lead who'd seemed straight up until then with a male LI -- Nip/Tuck, looking at you -- and then dropped the storyline cold, which I have been really bitter about, much more bitter than I've been about stuff like the "we aren't ever doing Destiel, just deal or have fun with the idea in fanfic" thing that SPN has seemed to have long been putting out there. I'd actually rather the show just make it a character choice, like Dean is just straight and not going to get with Castiel because of that, etc, which seems to be the direction SPN has chosen, than to really bait us with the idea that they're falling in love and then jerk the rug out of the storyline at the last second, like they did for Nip/Tuck with Christian. (And I mean the LAST second, Christian was buying statues shaped like penises ffs!). YMMV though, that's just my personal taste because I hate the bait and switch, I'd rather just not be offered the "bait" at all. So I appreciate that the show has been relatively clear about Destiel not happening.

The thing of never having the characters onscreen together is overkill, though. I mean, if Dean and Cas are never going to interact, I don't even see the point of Cas being on the show at all. He's tied to the central storyline through Dean, so if he and Dean don't have a relationship (friendship, whatever) on screen, then he's essentially totally untethered from the central storyline. And if he's irrelevant to the central storyline, and is just trapped in his own separate rinky-dink storyline, I really don't see why he'd need to be a regular?

catrox14 · December 8, 2014

this is one of the more male-skewing shows on the CW, and I think that producers would be worried about alienating the straight male fans, too.

I don't think it's one of the more male skewing shows on the CW any more. I'm not sure of the demographics and I'd have to look it up but I think that goes to Arrow and The Flash now with Supernatural trailing. I think SPN has more female fans and viewers than male and have a larger buying dollar in conventions, show merchandise, DVDs etc.

mizkat · December 8, 2014

I'm with this show because of Sam and Dean and Jensen and Jared. Everyone else is superfluous. I miss some characters (Bobby, Meg) and some I think got a really raw deal (Meg, Ellen, Jo) and some I'm glad to see disappear (Amelia, Abaddon). Some I want to return, like Gabriel/Trickster, Bobby, Sarah. But that ain't happening. Point is, that anyone, including Cas, can leave this show and I'll probably gripe about their exit not being done as well as it could have been...but if this show ever got rid of Sam or Dean I'm done. It's not that good of a show to carry on without it's wayward sons.

supposebly · December 9, 2014

It's not that good of a show to carry on without it's wayward sons.

True. I think they are the only reason this show made it past season 1 and the main reason it lasted this long.

Mulva · December 9, 2014

I'm tired of hearing the same crap about how the guy who gets twice as much screentime and lines, nearly all the scenes with the guest stars, the entire POV, and whose every action is whitewashed while his co-star is excoriated for doing the exact same thing, is being 'shortchanged' by TPTB.

It's ridiculous that we're simultaneously told that 1) Lester is a vile POS who richly deserved death at St. Dean's hands, and 2) Lester is a poor woobie who was led into perdition by Evil Sam. You can't have it both ways.

If Lester was basically an innocent led astray by Sam, then Dean is a monster for murdering him. If Lester is a scumbag who would have most likely hired some biker to kill his wife, then that lets Sam off the hook morally. Seeing that Lester showed up at the house, not to stop Dean, but to gleefully watch his wife ripped apart by a demon, and he was perfectly sober at the time, I'll take #2.

Demented Daisy · December 9, 2014

If Lester was basically an innocent led astray by Sam, then Dean is a monster for murdering him. If Lester is a scumbag who would have most likely hired some biker to kill his wife, then that lets Sam off the hook morally. Seeing that Lester showed up at the house, not to stop Dean, but to gleefully watch his wife ripped apart by a demon, and he was perfectly sober at the time, I'll take #2.

I think he was somewhere in the middle. Not an innocent, but not necessarily a scumbag, either. Perhaps he thought about killing his wife, but wouldn't have gone through with it out of fear of being caught and going to jail. If so, Sam pointing him in the direction of demon gives him an opportunity he wouldn't have had otherwise. A demon can't exactly testify in court against him

Personally, I'm bothered by what Sam did, but not nearly as much as I'm bothered by Demon Dean. So if the show is trying to make him into a saint, I missed that message. Demon Dean was evil -- he was a fucking demon. His soul was corrupted. No moral grey area there for me. Which is why I hate it.

amensisterfriend · December 9, 2014

Mulva, your post just reminded me of a very UO, which is that the more I rewatch, the more I find myself drawn to Sam. He's a really flawed character who often ranges from inconsistently defined to not defined much at all, but somehow I have a soft spot for him. Maybe it's because of what we've talked about here, how Dean is so the classic hero: the handsome, charming, witty, rugged, courageous, intensely loyal, noble, hard drinkin' tough guy who all the other secondary characters explicitly favor over Sam---other than the evil demonic ones, that is :) Dean's only flaw (aside from the merrily glossed over alcoholism) is that he doesn't have the self-esteem to get what a phenomenally amazing guy he is. Don't get me wrong---I enjoy Dean immensely and find myself frustrated with him far less than I am with Sam, but Sam is more 'real' and relatable to me. Plus, Sam's characterization is so vague and/or all over the place at times that it allows me to conveniently fanwank as needed ;)

Aeryn13 · December 9, 2014

I thought Lester was played as a scumbag so I wasn`t personally bothered by his death. Neither by Sam faciliating a deal for him. Considering stuff they have already done, that was a little blip on the darkness scale. However, it would also be exactly be white-washing to me to say "because he was an ass, Saint Sam the wonderful was once again justified in everything he did". He is actually lucky, Demon!Dean showed up at that house and was in an ornery mood because otherwise the wife would be dead and not Lester.

Furthermore, I don`t think Demon!Dean was evil. Both brothers, Castiel, Bobby and lots of other characters have done more "evil" than I saw of Demon!Dean. Singing bad karaoke and being a hedonist isn`t evil. Being a jerk to a woman isn`t evil either. He killed a couple demons in self-defense. He did some douchy things with the stripper and beating up the bouncer. But for demons my yardstick for evil is burning mothers on ceilings, eating babies and being Hell`s most feared torturer. Demon!Dean was in a particularly bad mood.

I thought Soulless!Sam was a smug asshole who apparently had his share of collateral damage but he doesn`t meet my expectations for "evil" either.

If we`re going for humans, what the Benders did, I actually consider evil.

but Sam is more 'real' and relatable to me

Ironically, I think he could be much better for me if not for the disconnect between show and tell. What I see is a character who most often annoys me because of how they act, how I would probably axe-murder if they pulled some of their shit with me. But that in itself isn`t the problem. In Elementary I favour Sherlock over Joan despite the fact that if I met them in real life, I couldn`t stand this guy for likely more than 2 minutes and she seems like a nice enough person.

But the show never tries to tell me that what I find completely obnoxious about Sherlock is anything but and basically I`m delusional. Whereas with Sam, literally everything that I find annoying I get the written message on how great it makes him, how mature, noble, forgiving and whatnot. It gets constantly validated and for plot-purposes rewarded. Yup, I consider the world-save a plot-reward. Don`t give a rat`s ass if it was bad for the character. If Dean had been thrown into the cage for neverending torture after saving the world, I would have cheered too.

Hence, I can`t see Sam as real or relatable even a little bit. Not with the constant pimpage of him. It`s more like your friends trying to fix you up with a guy and you realize pretty soon it won`t work but in the beginning it`s not biggie, just opposite that do not attract. But they try to sell you on everything that puts you off and you start feeling like you`re in the freaking Twilight Zone.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Aeryn13

amensisterfriend · December 9, 2014

If we`re going for humans, what the Benders did, I actually consider evil.

Same here! And I'm warped enough to hold the UO that Benders is one of 10 or so very favorite episodes of the series... :)

Demented Daisy · December 9, 2014

When I say Demon Dean was evil, it was because of the definition of a demon in this universe -- a human soul, twisted and corrupted. Can a demon do good? (Or, at least, not act evil?) Sure, but it doesn't mitigate the damage to the soul, IMO. If doing good could fix a demonic soul, then wouldn't every demon try to be Mother Teresa to get out of Hell permanently?

Were Demon Dean's actions evil? Well, that's debatable, re: the murder of Lester. Likewise, we don't know everything he did while a demon. Still waiting on that.

Aeryn13 · December 9, 2014

Ah, okay. I see what you mean. I think, though, while Dean was briefly of the species demon just as Cas was briefly of the species human, that is different to me than evil. Most demons, probably all, are or have been "evil". Cain appears not to be evil anymore but has been for centuries according to his own words. So technically, demon equals evil would not be an unfair assessment to make in general in the show.

But so far, I haven`t seen evil from Demon!Dean. Which is why I don`t put him under the generalized terms of demons. Most humans are likely not evil but they still can be. Angels can be and do evil, though as a species they are not considered as such. Monsters are but range a wide variety.

I doubt they will reveal much more of Demon!Dean`s actions because in the end they still need the character viable as one of the (technical) leads. And this isn`t Angel or Xena where they build on a truly dark backstory. Nor even Vampire Diaries where evilness and slaughter are like temper tantrums and are handwaved in some form. This show is chicken-shit in that regard, as evidenced by the oodles of whitewash always standing ready for Sam, so I think/hope Dean benefits from it as well.

rue721 · December 9, 2014

Mulva, your post just reminded me of a very UO, which is that the more I rewatch, the more I find myself drawn to Sam. He's a really flawed character who often ranges from inconsistently defined to not defined much at all, but somehow I have a soft spot for him.

Yeah, I completely agree! I've never cared much about Sam before, frankly because (this is harsh, I'm sorry), I felt like JP did a pretty bad job. He was always doing that panting/nose-flaring thing whenever Sam was supposed to be upset, which felt like practically every episode. But watching just the later seasons, he's actually much improved. Still can't say the character makes any sense really, but eh.

Since starting this rewatch, I was liking Sam quite a bit altogether, but the moment when he really won me was in early S7: When the world was going to end unless they got god!Cas to this particular place so he could throw up all the souls that he was carrying in his stomach through a doorway back to Purgatory. Dean was sitting around having a drink and watching anime and just waiting for the apocalypse because he was completely pessimistic, but then gigantic, strapping Sam showed up with this little bookbag flung over his shoulder and was like, "wait, aren't you ready to go?!" That was right after Sam got woken up from getting his Hell memories back, so he'd been a complete mess the whole episode or two, it was around the time when he was shooting that gun off at Hellucifer in the warehouse -- but he still showed up looking all cheerful, with this tiny bookbag hanging one-strap off his shoulder like he's a fifth grader, being like, "Hellucinations? No worries, I'm too conscientious and upbeat for them to get me down! Aren't we going to go save the world?!" I have to say, it was adorable.

The character doesn't really make any sense, and I still *vastly* prefer when Sam is more caustic (JP does a really good job with that!) but regardless, he's really grown on me during the last few weeks/months that I've been rewatching.

What's funny is that I would probably dislike Sam's personality irl. He takes himself so seriously, and he's so dry that even without a soul he was working all the time. But Idk, he can be pretty endearing. I think that what makes him appealing to me is that he never seems to feel even an ounce of existential angst, he is so literal and concrete all the time.

catrox14 · December 9, 2014

What I have trouble with is that Dean was made into a demon by MoC and death. What I don't understand is why that particular event twisted his soul vs 40 years in Hell other than magic curse. . Like, I think it's great because it has a lot of potential and Jensen has killed it as demon! Dean, but it seems like Dean wasn't remotely like the other demons. So it does kind of bug me that super dick is all we see and not true enhanced demon powers.

shang yiet · December 10, 2014

I'm tired of hearing the same crap about how the guy who gets twice as much screentime and lines, nearly all the scenes with the guest stars, the entire POV, and whose every action is whitewashed while his co-star is excoriated for doing the exact same thing, is being 'shortchanged' by TPTB.

And now that he has the mytharc, he still gets the lion's share of the emo angst, the screentime, scenes with guest stars, POV and his every action as a demon is whitewashed because hello, you can't blame him for murder because of the Mark. I was never against Dean getting his share of the mytharc but I feared this would happen.

If I thought he was actually sidelined all these years, then that would be unfair as Dean is one of the leads. But it seems all fans agree while Sam got the mytharc, Dean got the emo. So each brother got something.

So it's apples for Sam and oranges for Dean. Dean fans might not consider that fair exchange if they prefer apples for example but don't sneeze at the oranges because they helped make the character what he is. And they're pretty tasty oranges judging from the fan reaction everything Dean angsts and hurts and cries.

Dean's only flaw (aside from the merrily glossed over alcoholism) is that he doesn't have the self-esteem to get what a phenomenally amazing guy he is

You hit the nail on the head.

Pete Martell · December 10, 2014

I think Dean has more flaws than that. His self-loathing leads him to make rash decisions and not think of the consequences until later. He also drowns himself in denial. It's just that the show no longer has so many characters who are there to run him into the dirt, and they allow us to see all sides of his decisions and trust us to come to our own conclusion. Somewhat.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Pete Martell

catrox14 · December 10, 2014

It seems like Sam's arrogance and self doubt lead to his demon blood behavior which at least he saved the world by using his demon blood. I hope Dean's self loathing and demonic side leads to him saving the world before he dies.

amensisterfriend · December 13, 2014

For all the talk about how much better earlier seasons were---and I very often agree!---I actually think there are a couple of things I like better about later seasons. For starters, I think JP's acting is markedly improved. I just switched from an S7 episode to an S1 episode, and suffice it to say that I think Jared's acting has gotten A LOT better even when the writing for his character hasn't :) Also, I find some of the stuff about spirituality and souls and all that of later seasons very interesting. Sometimes they work a lot better as theoretical ideas than in actual execution, but I enjoy it nonetheless. As much as I adore the MotWs, I think they would have gotten stale by now if the show hadn't attempted to broaden its scope.

catrox14 · December 13, 2014

I can't figure out JP's acting. I thought he was pretty terrible in the first season. He spoke with this overly concerned trying to show uber empathy voice that made me want to put a rusty spork in my eye.

I swear I think JP was better playing everyone not named Sam Winchester until this season. I think he's found a nice balance of legitimate caring and empathy. It's not treacly. But he's still kind of side-eying Dean and there is still that IMO generally judgy thing with Sam. And his badassery is more believable now. I can't figure if the judgy thing is an acting choice or just JP's tone I don't know.

7kstar · December 14, 2014

For all the talk about how much better earlier seasons were---and I very often agree!---I actually think there are a couple of things I like better about later seasons. For starters, I think JP's acting is markedly improved. I just switched from an S7 episode to an S1 episode, and suffice it to say that I think Jared's acting has gotten A LOT better even when the writing for his character hasn't :) Also, I find some of the stuff about spirituality and souls and all that of later seasons very interesting. Sometimes they work a lot better as theoretical ideas than in actual execution, but I enjoy it nonetheless. As much as I adore the MotWs, I think they would have gotten stale by now if the show hadn't attempted to broaden its scope.

One of the hardest things for me was just that, how badly Jared acted in season 1. If I hadn't started with later seasons and gone backwards I don't know I would have seen anything to grab my attention other than Jensen. I agree they have to mix up the MotW's because without looking for something new it would get dull. I also think there are plenty of unexamined stories in the boys early years. As much as family members think they know each other, there are plenty of secrets that are never explained. I kind of thought the story Dean told Sam about John recusing him after being roofied was one of those issues. Not sure what Dean told Sam really was what happened. Sam already found out that one story wasn't true, Dean lost to cover up he was in a boys home for example.

I can't figure out JP's acting. I thought he was pretty terrible in the first season. He spoke with this overly concerned trying to show uber empathy voice that made me want to put a rusty spork in my eye.

I swear I think JP was better playing everyone not named Sam Winchester until this season. I think he's found a nice balance of legitimate caring and empathy. It's not treacly. But he's still kind of side-eying Dean and there is still that IMO generally judgy thing with Sam. And his badassery is more believable now. I can't figure if the judgy thing is an acting choice or just JP's tone I don't know.

Jared's grown as an actor but not all of his not Sam's have been strong for me. Actor's grow when they work against someone that is stronger which is why Dean and Sam work so well most of the time. But I find if I just roll with it and turn of my directing side, I am a lot happier. Many actors think with their heads. I think Jensen does this too but he also trusts his instincts which is why he came up with the unexpected. Dean just not caring at all as Demon Dean. It gave him stronger choices to play. Jared doesn't always go for the stronger choice he goes for the obvious choice.

The stronger choice provides layers, the obvious choice is more one dimensional. Free acting lesson. :)

AwesomO4000 · December 14, 2014

My unpopular opinion is that I never minded Jared's portrayal of Sam, and I often think he provides layers. Season 7 is a good example for me. I saw many layers to his portrayal of Sam and his hallucinations and often they were subtle enough - rather than obvious - it took a couple of viewings to see what Jared was doing. I also thought he gave layers to soulless Sam and through subtle things he did in terms of posture, conveyed something was "off" about Sam without being obvious. I could really see it for what it was in the season 6 finale where he plays soulless Sam and regular Sam so differently, not only with what he says and how, but even how he carried himself. Soulless Sam seemed to stand up just a little bit straighter and stiffer with his movements just a little "off". I loved what Jared did in season 5 too, and a few of his earlier scenes - including season 1 - still stay with me. (The end of "Bloody Mary" comes to mind.)

I agree that on the average, Jensen could be considered the better actor, but when he has misses for me (like the comedy bits in "Yellow Fever"), they are bigger. And the Batman voice does bug sometimes.

But mostly for me, I don't notice acting unless it's really bad, so I've never really had many problems with either of the guys portrayals, so maybe my opinion doesn't amount to all that much in the end. :: shrug ::

rue721 · December 14, 2014

He spoke with this overly concerned trying to show uber empathy voice that made me want to put a rusty spork in my eye.

Yes, I know exactly the condescending "sadfais" tone you mean. Thankfully, he hasn't been using it lately. That tone and the "panting means I'm upset!" thing he was doing for a long time were really the only problems I had with his acting but OMG they would irritate me so much.

I think that "less is more" with JP. He's always been good imo at conveying what Sam's thinking or feeling, but in the past he's tended to try too hard to get things across, which imo ends up coming across as fake and awkward and overly theatrical. He can really deliver in quiet moments, though. Two of my favorites are when he told Bobby thank you before Bobby died, and when he and Dean went back in time and he saw John and Mary for the first time. Also, I love when he's sarcastic or kind of an asshole or just insincere in general -- imo he actually does a good job with that, because for whatever reason he doesn't overplay those moments.

Also, some of the things he does that don't quite work make more sense to me in retrospect. Like he was so bizarre and robot-like when he was playing Gadreel!Sam, but then after seeing the actual Gadreel and how he was played, I could see that JP had used very similar mannerisms and posture and stuff for Gadreel!Sam. But it came off differently/awkwardly when JP did it whereas Tahmoh Penikett could pull those mannerisms/posture off.

Watching American Horror Story this season has been interesting in terms of acting, because on the one hand, Kathy Bates is fantastic in terms of her actual acting and she's got lots of charisma, is fun to watch, etc, but OMG that fake Baltimore accent she's doing is SO RIDICULOUS. I mean, I had to play some of her scenes to my friend last night just solely so we could laugh at it. I guess my point is that even good actors have weaknesses and strengths, so that JP does have some weaknesses doesn't ruin his acting as a whole for me. If I can get over Kathy Bates's accent, I guess I can get over JP's difficulty in conveying sincerity :P

catrox14 · December 14, 2014

I find with Jared that his strongest points are playing the dark stuff, the evil stuff, or playing the tidbits of another character like with Samifer, or MegSam. Soulless Sam to me was just the part of Sam that was always a dick coming to the fore so not a ton of difference there. I think Jared does his best work when he's listening. I believe that it's Sam listening and responding to someone's words vs Jared waiting to recite his lines, if that makes sense.

I guess I feel like I don't know Sam and I never have. I think because he's been so many different Sams that it's hard for me to see the real Sam in all of it and that is not solely a writing problem IMO it's an acting thing. Like if s1 Sam is that THE Sam Winchester...no thanks. Couldn't stand him at all. If Sam Winchester is more like the Sam of this season, I find him much more interesting and complex. S4 Sam was a mess but I liked him more than s1 Sam and I think that is because we were dealing with dark!Sam and arrogant! but not condescending!Sam

Like with Dean, there are very specific qualities that IMO are Dean, that remain "Dean" no matter if he's scaredy-cat!Dean in Yellow Fever, or demon!Dean or future!Dean and to me that is not poor acting. It is being able to play a character with enough consistency that whatever happens to Dean I can still see the Dean of it. When he played shapeshifter!Dean he was very different and his face didn't look the same.

Edited December 14, 2014 by catrox14

Pete Martell · December 15, 2014

I didn't have a big problem with Jared's work in the early seasons. He's very pure and sincere, and a bit of a pouty shit, which worked perfectly for Sam. I don't think Sam needed brilliant acting. Even then, he was more than capable at emotional moments in episodes like "Houses of the Holy." I really don't think the first two seasons would have worked half as well without his performance.

Once they went overboard in hardening the character (and Jared bulked up), something changed, generally not for the better. I think some of Jared's best work came in episodes like the detox episode, and I also thought he was very good in "Sacrifice," but the writing for Sam means many fans overlook the good performances, as Sam is often inscrutable and easy to just see as controlling or impossible to please, or what have you. And I don't think most of the writing for Sam in the last 5-6 seasons has really allowed much room for acting.

I think Jared did a good job playing darker sides of Sam, but I probably enjoyed the goofy comedy moments more than anything else.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Pete Martell

SueB · December 15, 2014

Unpopular opinion (I think): I think Jared is a good actor. He's embodied Sam in a very realistic way IMO. Just like Jensen and the gravelly voice, his one acting "tick" I wish didn't exist was the heavy breathing when fighting. But...meh. Minor, rarely notice it. I think his face conveys a tremendous amount of emotion in a wide variety of scenes. I'm kinda a fan of many of many of his little Sam-isms; the way he startles, his aplomb when shit really hits the fan, and the way he moves when they enter a hostile situation. Like others I think he excels at the darker moments and can be outstanding during the comedy.

7kstar · December 15, 2014

Unpopular opinion (I think): I think Jared is a good actor. He's embodied Sam in a very realistic way IMO. Just like Jensen and the gravelly voice, his one acting "tick" I wish didn't exist was the heavy breathing when fighting. But...meh. Minor, rarely notice it. I think his face conveys a tremendous amount of emotion in a wide variety of scenes. I'm kinda a fan of many of many of his little Sam-isms; the way he startles, his aplomb when shit really hits the fan, and the way he moves when they enter a hostile situation. Like others I think he excels at the darker moments and can be outstanding during the comedy.

Jared started out as an personality actor and a technical actor. He thinks about the movement to create his characterization, this is a valid method and many actors use it. Not sure I can explain this well as even those in the profession vary in what they think makes it work.

He had moments that I've always liked, period. Example him coming up with walking with his hands and feet not swinging naturally is an example of how he uses his head to create the character. Does it make him a terrible actor...not saying that. But do I find moments where I see him acting...that's a big yes for me and it pulls me out. I have seen improve over the years and I don't have complaints about his acting this season. More of my complaints lately would be the writing.

Bad writing can really take out a great actor, period. Has Jensen had off moments, I think so. He does have a tendency to go big in comedy but since I watched so many shows that that is all they did, I can find it humorous. Yellow fever is an example of Stage acting vs film acting and he did it deliberately, IMO.

However, I never got into Jared playing Gadreel and really really didn't like it. I understand what happen because his choice to do it came from a physical action. But there is another style that to be honest I'm not sure either has been trained in and hard to explain. But I use it with my students and would be too long to explain here.

Jensen has the plus of thinking like a director, he can't help it. Both of them look out for each other and I agree the too gravel low voice is not a choice I would have Jensen do, especially since it can harm not only his vocal voice but his singing voice as well.

The bottom line, you will never have everyone agree with any statement about a show 100 percent of the time. I've also seen Jensen grow as an actor. I think them working together has helped them both because they have different techniques and it allows for a chemistry which audiences will always react positively too. More times for Me, Jensen also works well with other actors, sometimes it isn't the same for me with Jared. But so far I'm enjoying both of their work this season and my only real complaint for Jared is he is too thin and his hair. But I'm sure there are others that love his hair.

Guess I'll end with a student's statement... "Ms. it's all your fault. I can't enjoy stupid movies anymore because I can now see the bad acting. My answer turn off the critic, but sometimes once you've had your eyes opened that is really really hard to do.

Not asking for anyone to agree with me, just explaining why I have a harder time.

rue721 · December 15, 2014

I guess I feel like I don't know Sam and I never have. I think because he's been so many different Sams that it's hard for me to see the real Sam in all of it and that is not solely a writing problem IMO it's an acting thing. Like if s1 Sam is that THE Sam Winchester...no thanks. Couldn't stand him at all. If Sam Winchester is more like the Sam of this season, I find him much more interesting and complex. S4 Sam was a mess but I liked him more than s1 Sam and I think that is because we were dealing with dark!Sam and arrogant! but not condescending!Sam

I've felt like this in the past, that I don't know who Sam is. The problem is mostly with the writing being inconsistent and Sam's POV being neglected or incoherent, I think, but as far as the acting goes, the issue for me is mostly that when JP does slip up, imo, it tends to be because he's trying too hard and coming off as artificial. Which makes me read him as insincere. And how can you feel you "know" a character or anybody who often seems like he's being fake and insincere? JP's improved a lot in that respect, though, and it hasn't been a problem a single time this season afaik.

But do I find moments where I see him acting...that's a big yes for me and it pulls me out. I have seen improve over the years and I don't have complaints about his acting this season. More of my complaints lately would be the writing.

IA, sometimes you can see him working so hard, and if acting looks like work, it kind of breaks the spell. Something related to that, though, and that I think is funny, is that it's obvious from his acting that he's never been on a soap, because something that really tends to do him in are those long reaction shots, like those big WUT!!!?! shots of a character's face right before an act out. JP fumbles those a fair amount of the time, imo, especially if he's supposed to be having some intense emotion for the duration. I thought that one of the worst was when he "woke up" from some hallucinations or something in "Before the Levee Breaks" and it was supposed to be a big act out, so he sat there randomly panting really hard on his bed with this OTT look on his face for what felt like ten minutes. Conversely, that kind of thing is Jensen Ackles's bread and butter, he can hold a "having emotions! reacting!" look for so long and manage to keep his face interesting (yet still gorgeous! a master of the pretty-cry!) while he does it, too.

Anyway, not to rag on JP too much. Not that I know anything about acting in the first place, but fwiw, I like his acting overall, and I think he's a huge part of the show's success. Imo, he's at his best in scenes that are over the top, because he somehow doesn't go over the top himself. One of the most random-but-fortunate times when I've felt that that came up was in this one scene in that terrible gets-married-to-Becky episode, when Becky has Sam tied up and is making a "heartfelt" speech to him about wanting to be loved for herself, and finally, she asks him whether he thinks that's possible. Sam sounds just so fed up and cutting when he says something like, "maybe if you didn't drug people." It cracked me up, but it also managed to ground the episode somewhat, I thought. JP tends to hit a lot of those difficult, bizarre or extreme moments just right.

One of my favorite scenes ever for JP was in that episode with the (un)lucky rabbit's foot, when Dean is on the phone in the foreground, and Sam is in the background -- and there's this whole ridiculous sequence of Sam getting gum on his shoe and trying to wipe it off on the sewer grate and then losing his shoe down the grate, etc. But JP does just generally have good comedic timing and he knows how to play that kind of thing imo. Too bad Sam is such a dry character in terms of his sense of humor, I always love when he jokes around or is even playing the straight man to someone else who's joking around. One thing that I miss and wish they would bring back in relation to that is that I always liked how Dean would continuously make those silly jokes, about pop culture references or puns or whatever, and Sam would always be like, "[exasperated sighhhhhh]" in response. First of all because the jokes were often funny imo, and second of all, I liked how exasperated Sam would always seem, like he really was just CONTINUOUSLY hearing this dumb crap.

Edited December 15, 2014 by rue721

SueB · December 15, 2014

he's never been on a soap, because something that really tends to do him in are those long reaction shots, like those big WUT!!!?! shots of a character's face right before an act out.

Because someone HAD to make this reference at this point in the conversation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TktV93g9H3g

Of course, I think Jared's fine in these moments but I'm just a viewer, not a professional.

DittyDotDot · December 15, 2014

Not all of Jared's choices work for me, but Jensen's had some epic fails for me too--I gave Hannibal his murder suit back, so I don't want to delve into blasphemy without appropriate protection today, though. Personally, I think Jared does fine, but excels when he gets decent writing. I think Jared raises to the quality of the writing; so when the writing is nuanced and layered, he brings more nuances and layers to his performances--S7 is some of Jared's best work, IMO. I agree he has improved as an actor over the seasons, but I also think he was doing fine enough for what they were giving him to do in those early seasons too. I think the difference between Jared and Jensen is Jensen always seems to rise above the writing. I don't think that makes Jared an inherently bad actor, but he's standing next to Jensen everyday. It's like looking at the moon at night and the sun during the day, separately they both have their wonders, but having the sun and moon occupy the same sky, of course one is gonna pale in comparison.

Edited December 15, 2014 by DittyDotDot

7kstar · December 16, 2014

Because someone HAD to make this reference at this point in the conversation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TktV93g9H3g

Of course, I think Jared's fine in these moments but I'm just a viewer, not a professional.

Love the clip and I think Jared is fine in the moments he really feels it or connects with the writing, if that makes since. The fact is all actors improve as they age because they have real life experience to draw from where before they had to fake it.

7kstar · December 16, 2014

Not all of Jared's choices work for me, but Jensen's had some epic fails for me too--I gave Hannibal his murder suit back, so I don't want to delve into blasphemy without appropriate protection today, though. Personally, I think Jared does fine, but excels when he gets decent writing. I think Jared raises to the quality of the writing; so when the writing is nuanced and layered, he brings more nuances and layers to his performances--S7 is some of Jared's best work, IMO. I agree he has improved as an actor over the seasons, but I also think he was doing fine enough for what they were giving him to do in those early seasons too. I think the difference between Jared and Jensen is Jensen always seems to rise above the writing. I don't think that makes Jared an inherently bad actor, but he's standing next to Jensen everyday. It's like looking at the moon at night and the sun during the day, separately they both have their wonders, but having the sun and moon occupy the same sky, of course one is gonna pale in comparison.

First of all just to be clear, Jared is NOT an inherently bad actor...and if you thought I said that, then let me clear that up. I would love to direct either in something as I think it would be fun. I think that Jensen is stronger in overcoming the bad writing. It might be the soap background that is helping. Jensen is not a perfect actor, but I look forward to seeing what more can he do and how much more he will grow as an actor/director.

I also think the real chemistry both actors share makes the show stronger and that one is just the lucky find. But what I notice is that Jensen can seem to create the chemistry a little easier with his co-stars or guest stars. Jared may seem more trusting but he may actually have more protective armor than we realize which can cause the chemistry issue. So it isn't really an acting thing but a protective thing.

I've felt like this in the past, that I don't know who Sam is. The problem is mostly with the writing being inconsistent and Sam's POV being neglected or incoherent, I think, but as far as the acting goes, the issue for me is mostly that when JP does slip up, imo, it tends to be because he's trying too hard and coming off as artificial. Which makes me read him as insincere. And how can you feel you "know" a character or anybody who often seems like he's being fake and insincere? JP's improved a lot in that respect, though, and it hasn't been a problem a single time this season afaik.

snip

One of my favorite scenes ever for JP was in that episode with the (un)lucky rabbit's foot, when Dean is on the phone in the foreground, and Sam is in the background -- and there's this whole ridiculous sequence of Sam getting gum on his shoe and trying to wipe it off on the sewer grate and then losing his shoe down the grate, etc. But JP does just generally have good comedic timing and he knows how to play that kind of thing imo. Too bad Sam is such a dry character in terms of his sense of humor, I always love when he jokes around or is even playing the straight man to someone else who's joking around. One thing that I miss and wish they would bring back in relation to that is that I always liked how Dean would continuously make those silly jokes, about pop culture references or puns or whatever, and Sam would always be like, "[exasperated sighhhhhh]" in response. First of all because the jokes were often funny imo, and second of all, I liked how exasperated Sam would always seem, like he really was just CONTINUOUSLY hearing this dumb crap.

Some of my favorite moments are in season 1. And I love that scene. Jared has some really great moments in every season. Now the hair is another story...seems like his best hair was the earlier seasons. I almost expect him to wear his hair in a ponytail.

I really hate what the writers gave Sam in Season 8 with a passion. The not looking for Dean, not looking for Kevin and I think that must have been really hard for him to do. It is really difficult to act something you really really disagree with. So I blame the writing more than acting sometimes. But I also hate the Judgmental Sam. And sometimes I wonder if that happens due to the combination of writing and acting.

I know this is unpopular but I want the show to end before I decide nope quit watching it. So far I'm enjoying this season, but that could change if they give Dean's story to Sam. Someone other than Sam needs to get the mark. So I'm cautious at best on this season staying as one I like, because usually the second half is the least favorite for me.

Edited December 16, 2014 by 7kstar

amensisterfriend · December 16, 2014

One of my favorite scenes ever for JP was in that episode with the (un)lucky rabbit's foot, when Dean is on the phone in the foreground, and Sam is in the background -- and there's this whole ridiculous sequence of Sam getting gum on his shoe and trying to wipe it off on the sewer grate and then losing his shoe down the grate, etc. But JP does just generally have good comedic timing and he knows how to play that kind of thing imo.

God yes. It always bugs me so much that Sam has been made so grim and humorless, both because it makes the character less likable (and the poor guy has more than enough flaws as it is!) and because I think JP is definitely at his best when he's allowed to be a little more spirited and alive---whether that means being funny, being happy (as rare as that is on this show!), being deliciously eeevil, etc. To be fair, I'm not sure MOST actors could make the inconsistently written and poorly defined, petulant Sam likable, which is why I blame the writers more than the actor. I do think Sam was weirdly likable through much of S7, though...then again, I think many facets of the show were unusually likable during much of S7, especially in contrast to other recent seasons :)

This one is probably unfair since we saw so little of her, but I never could bring myself to like or care about Jessica or to buy that she and Sam had some sort of fabulous romance. Their scenes are the only imperfect part of the pilot for me. (Is it unpopular to absolutely LOVE the pilot?!) I think it's again a combination of the actress and the usual 'well, let's just make her sexxxy and sassy and hottt!' default (lack of) writing they do with nearly every female character. I just couldn't get a sense of who she was or buy that she was a Stanford student. (I realize not every student who attends prestigious schools like Stanford screams 'intellectual!', but Jessica just seemed vaguely ditzy to me.)

supposebly · December 16, 2014

Well, we saw her drunk at Halloween and in her undies for Dean to leer at and then she got fridged. Not exactly much to work with.

Every other instance I can remember her was in Dean's djinn-induced fantasy and as a Lucifer stand-in.

She was more a symbol to get the plot rolling than a character. Classic fridging.

Btw., wouldn't the acting discussion be better in the actor's or character thread?

Edited December 17, 2014 by supposebly

millennium · December 25, 2014

I agree about Cas and the angels. But they're not going anywhere--Misha, who I adore, provides great PR for the show. He's got an engaged fan base, which marketing departments love to see. The big problem the show has is that Cas isn't needed anymore. He doesn't have the power to help the Winchesters, and that was his main role. The only other time he worked as an interesting character was the short time he became their enemy--when he thought he was God after gorging on souls. Since then they've been trying to find a way to make Cas relevant and interesting, and it's all failed. It's hard to do when the character itself is very one dimensional.

So basically the show is being hamstrung by a character who amounts to little more than a mascot.

SueB · December 25, 2014

So basically the show is being hamstrung by a character who amounts to little more than a mascot.

Since I believe in the little tree topper, I'll respond in the Cas thread. Please feel free to ignore my response as this is the bitterness thread and I don't want to discourage you from saying what you want to say and being left in peace. If remotely interested, I'll be over there....

amensisterfriend · December 25, 2014

I just rewatched A Very Supernatural Christmas, and while I really adore that episode for a whole slew of reasons, my UO is that I think the episode would have been better without the flashbacks, played by the just-doesn't-feel-like-THEM versions of Sam and Dean. Then again, I nearly always think episodes would be better without flashbacks :)

AwesomO4000 · January 22, 2015

Brought over from the "All Episodes Talk" thread:

From the beginning I thought Dean had to offer more than that. He wasn`t just "Joe Schmoe" from the streets. He had an epic backstory with the Mom being killed by a demon, the growing up in such a strange lifestyle and pretty much as a warrior. Then hallelujah and all hail the writer`s strike that allowed him to go to hell because finally a real genre story about him personally.

What about killing the YED? Yes, Dean got help from John, but my opinion on that is: so what? At least Dean actually did it. For all of the "genre specialness" Sam supposedly had in the storyline, for the first 3 seasons it pretty much all added up to him getting killed by the bad guy * and being the catalyst for Dean's going to hell story. If the show ended after season 3 - which can happen when a show gets disrupted by a writers' strike - I'm not seeing much to complain about with Dean's "human" story. He got half of the one big kill and he got the epic "sacrifice himself for his brother" story. And that was all while he was human. And if the show had ended after the 4th season - which I'm so glad it didn't - the "specialness" that Sam had would've pretty much been a legacy of epic failure. Dean as a human and even with the pain of having 40 years of hell memories was somehow the only voice of reason, so to me the message seemed to be that power is not necessarily a good thing and sometimes humanity has it right. In other words, to me, Supernatural is not a typical genre show. For 4 seasons, special powers did not win and in fact screwed up royally.

You might have hated "Swan Song," but I really liked it. Finally Sam got to do something besides screw up. About damn time, in my opinion. Sure, it sort of messed with the humanity saves the day thing - thought not much for me, since I thought Dean was important here. Miles vary - but I was ready for a change at that point anyway. Maybe if human Dean didn't do anything else in the next few seasons, I might feel slighted for him, but that's not the case. Dean still had huge wins despite being human, including saving his brother's soul, some major kills, and an arc-ending, main-villain kill. In contrast, Sam's "human" storyline had him "hitting a dog" and abandoning Dean, Kevin, and his responsibilities. Not exactly a fair trade if you ask me.

And then, in the past season and a half, while Dean has the main arc, Sam has pretty much had little story of his own. ** And this year no B plot - not even the C plot. Those this year are Castiel's and Crowley's. Maybe ironically, however, I have been liking what they're doing character-wise with Sam better than almost everything they did with him in the past two seasons, so maybe the moral of the story is that if you get the A plot, your character gets roughed up a bit in the process.

* well, because of the bad guy. He actually got killed by just a bad guy grunt so to speak.

* I don't count the Gadreel plot for much, since Gadreel wasn't Sam and that arc was mainly there to fuel/support Dean's mark of Cain arc. Sam didn't kill any bad guys or do anything of import there. He wasn't even present for either bad guy battle, being sent on a bogus errand for one, and knocked out for the other. Castiel actually got the win there and so pretty much had the B-plot for the second half of the season.

amensisterfriend · January 22, 2015

Finally Sam got to do something besides screw up. About damn time, in my opinion.

So true. I couldn't agree more, and it's one of a few reasons why I also hold the very UO of liking Swan Song.

Another UO: I rambled about this elsewhere, but in many ways S1 has become my favorite of the whole series and the one I'm most likely to rewatch. And loving Sam and how he's (gasp) an actual balance of strengths and flaws in that first season rather than just the relentlessly angry, petulant, misguided, stubborn, selfish, prideful, arrogant, loved-only-by-Dean-and-demons killjoy in contrast to his superheroic, self-sacrificng, noble, brave, witty, charming, loyal, adored-by-everyone-who-matters brother.

And I love Dean. In fact, I love that in S1 he, too, seemed a better balance of both strengths and flaws and wasn't so heavily defined by excessive guilt and someone-call-Dr.-Phil low self-esteem. Some people say he was too shallow and immature in that first season, but I adored his energy and bravado and thought he made the entire show more infectiously fun than it's ever been since.

And I love JP's S1 hair, which seems to be a UO in and of itself :)

Edited January 22, 2015 by amensisterfriend

Aeryn13 · January 22, 2015

so maybe the moral of the story is that if you get the A plot, your character gets roughed up a bit in the process.

It`s the first time ever I`m experiencing this with my character so overall, I don`t mind. If I were on the tenth or so loop where he had the A-plot, I might feel differently but everything is still novel (though in constant terror of being snatched away again). Of course I`m also annoyed because something I was ready for in year 2 or 3 at the latest, I had to wait for 10!!! years to happen. Well, okay 9 and a half. Not that much better.

And the big halfway point in Season 5 was like an acid bath. The entire second half of Season 8 was almost as bad, only much longer.

Maybe if human Dean didn't do anything else in the next few seasons, I might feel slighted for him,

I did because well, he didn`t. One-off episodes do not a mytharc make. Becoming Death for one episode? If we were talking Death for half a Season and have a big story spun from that, then we`d be in buisness.

As for the Leviathan arc, not seeing that as a Dean one even in the slightest. Granted, it is not for Sam either, he had the hellucinations back then but it meets exactly zero of my criteria on what it means for an arc to be centered on a character. The happenstance win in the Season 7 Finale was kinda nice but does not even begin to compare to the Season 5 Finale for me.

The Gadreel plot counts for Sam because if it were reversed, it would still very much count for Dean also. If he had been the one possessed. I don`t mind if the character isn`t there "there", so to speak, but it would still be something supernatural happening to him. So, for me, it is a Sam-plot.

but in many ways S1 has become my favorite of the whole series

I think there can be good points made for Season 1. It was more episodic in nature, sure, and as always, a new show needs a bit to find its footing but like many times on other shows as well, the characters get reverse-engineered.

Characters should be sympathetic in some way when a show starts, so as to draw an audience in but it is okay if they have annoying sides. That`s what a years long journey during the show is for, to fix that and let them grow. Yet, LOTS of shows work the opposite way and end with the characters supposedly "matured" when in hindsight they were superior in just about every way in the early years. Funnier, smarter, more accomplished, nicer, healthier, even way more mature. Whereas at the end of their journey they seem to have embraced the asshole side of the Force.

I thought Dean was in a better place emotionally then he is now. And I also think he was mature. Did he have a fun, childish or maybe more accurately child-like side that could come off as immature to bystanders? Hell yes. But deep down where it counted, he had matured. He is...kinda still at that point now, only without that child-like side coming out to play any more.

SueB · January 23, 2015

Yeah...so...love the boys...love their stories. Bitter they haven't printed the books yet.

AwesomO4000 · January 23, 2015

As for the Leviathan arc, not seeing that as a Dean one even in the slightest. Granted, it is not for Sam either, he had the hellucinations back then but it meets exactly zero of my criteria on what it means for an arc to be centered on a character. The happenstance win in the Season 7 Finale was kinda nice but does not even begin to compare to the Season 5 Finale for me.

It seems to me that the only criteria that wasn't present in Dean's arc concerning Dick Roman was that he didn't have supernatural powers to do it. It wasn't like Dean just accidentally happened upon Dick Roman and said "well guess I might as well kill him, I got nothing else to do" (which is what "happenstance" means to me). Dean set out to kill Dick Roman and even had the "I'm going to kill you" quote to the bad guy's face trope to announce it. Then he gathered the information needed, spent at least half the season or more pursuing the goal, and then he killed him, sacrificing himself and ending up in purgatory - which was technically a supernatural ending at least to that arc, so there was a supernatural element involved even if it was belated. Could anyone else have done what Dean did? Not really, in my opinion, because Dean was the driving force here - he did the research and gathered the means to do it, his association with the alpha vampire helped to get some of the needed ingredients, and it was only through Dean's determination that the deed got done and the world was saved complete with the Dean sacrificing himself to do it trope. The fact that Dean did this without any super-powers, to me, makes it more impressive. Oh and along the way he dug up the means to save Sam - again - and mustered a difficult Castiel into helping in the kill Dick quest (since Cas was less than interested) and even recruited Meg. To me this sounds like an arc, and the fact that it ended with Dean killing the main bad guy (while Sam wasn't even in the room, by the way) makes it the main arc of the season.

And not coincidentally in my opinion, the supernatural goings on in that season - Sam and his hallucinations and Castiel and his powers - didn't solve the problem and in fact were sometimes hindrances to the "human" Dean achieving the goal. As I said, this is not a normal genre show. Often having supernatural powers doesn't help at best and more often than not causes catastrophes. This happened in almost in almost every season finale except one. And even that win and "saving of the world" pretty much just triggered the next catastrophe - i.e. Sam's trapping Lucifer and Michael left the power vacuum which caused Raphael to start the angel civil war. So even then when powers were helpful, right after that powers started gearing up to the next catastrophe at the end of season 6.

When Dean got powers, in fact, ironically they didn't help in the big fight either. Sure he killed Abaddon, but that caused a ripple effect that was killing him and he still failed to kill Metatron - who Castiel defeated using sneaky means more than anything else - and then became a demon. Technically Dean's win record is much better as a regular human than it is now that he has supernatural powers. That's just the way this show usually rolls.

So for me rather than being the human one being a slight, it seems to me that that is the noble and more respected role - at least in terms of actual wins. Though I kinda wish they'd let Sam have some sort of win - or any sort of helpful role at all - now that he's the "human" one.

The Gadreel plot counts for Sam because if it were reversed, it would still very much count for Dean also. If he had been the one possessed. I don`t mind if the character isn`t there "there", so to speak, but it would still be something supernatural happening to him. So, for me, it is a Sam-plot.

But what did it count as? I didn't say that the Gadreel plot didn't count as a Sam plot. I said the Gadreel plot didn't count for much, because it didn't (at least in terms of Sam). Nothing much lasting happened to Sam as a consequence. Sam didn't kill any bad guys or get any lasting power from being possessed. Sam didn't do anything but be a vessel, get saved by Dean, and get pissy at Dean (to fuel Dean's arc). Sam didn't have any power. The power was Gadreel, and it was more Gadreel's arc, because he was the one who redeemed himself in the end and actually contributed to defeating Metatron by springing Castiel out of angel prison. Sam got knocked out and, oh yeah, failed... again. And I can't even remember what Sam's arc was for the second half of season 9. I'm not sure if he even had one. So yeah, that happened - or not as the case may be here.

rue721 · January 23, 2015

When Dean got powers, in fact, ironically they didn't help in the big fight either. Sure he killed Abaddon, but that caused a ripple effect that was killing him and he still failed to kill Metatron - who Castiel defeated using sneaky means more than anything else - and then became a demon. Technically Dean's win record is much better as a regular human than it is now that he has supernatural powers. That's just the way this show usually rolls.

That's a good point, the parallel between the Mark's effects on Dean and Yellow Eyes's blood's effect on the Psychic Kids. That's a pretty interesting parallel, though.

I'm not sure that humanity is supposed to be an especially good or pure thing on this show, because there's a(n often destructive) rigidity and stubbornness that seems characteristic of humanity on SPN. Humanity is (self-)destructive often enough on SPN, and characters' basic personalities unchangable enough (Garth is still Garth after becoming a werewolf, etc) that I don't think the theme to these stories about various characters taking on supernatural powers is that "(supernatural) power corrupts." I don't think the show is as dainty about humanity as all that.

It probably is about the ripple effects and how enormous and unpredictable they are. I guess that's always been a theme of the show, that an event or a choice that might seem unimportant or the result of random chance can completely change a person's perspective or her life, and then that eventually impacts lots of other people's perspectives and their lives, too.

If that's the theme that the writers are exploring right now, I'm not sure how strong their execution's been, just because the world of the show still seems pretty claustrophobic and over-engineered. Like how they brought in Claire, and made it seem like her ruined life was a consequence of Cas choosing to use Jimmy as his vessel (etc) -- but then they didn't show any ripple effects of *that.* Claire doesn't seem like she has a life at all, she has no ties and doesn't even seem to have a defined personality or point of view (though YMMV), she doesn't seem like she or her actions have ever affected anyone else's life. If they really want to explore something like ripple effects, they have to open up the world of the show more, imo.

Aeryn13 · January 23, 2015

It seems to me that the only criteria that wasn't present in Dean's arc concerning Dick Roman was that he didn't have supernatural powers to do it.

It wasn`t his destiny, he wasn`t supernaturally chosen for it, the Leviathan`s plan didn`t stand or fall with him and he wasn`t literally the only person in the world who could do it. Gathering intel - and really, in one of the most ludicrous scenes in the entire show, Ghost!Bobby came back and fed them EVERYTHING in a powerpoint exposition scene about the Leviathan plan because apparently all the episodes before where they supposedly gathered information on them amounted to squat, they didn`t put anything together - is something nearly everyone can do. Gathering supplies - just as well.

Death didn`t come to Sam and exposit that Dean and only Dean was destined to defeat the Leviathans. Dick Roman himself wasn`t focused on Dean for the entire Season for that reason. Sure, they considered the Winchesters some kind of nuissance but that`s a wholly different ballgame.

It`s the same as driving the Impala to the Lucifer/Michael fight in Suck Song. Dean may have done it but in the end, lots of people can drive a car. For me it doesn`t matter if person x was maybe more motivated to do so in a given scene than Joe Schmoe from the street and that`s why they did what they did, for me it matters if person x is replaceable or not. Apparently, Dean was so easily replaceable as Michael`s vessel that this role loses all meaning. On the other hand Lucifer did not and would not go confront Michael until he had HIS true vessel. He would accept noone else. Whereas it would have been technically possible that Bobby or Cas drove the car there or even a random person who found the keys in the ignition. Why that random person would then go to Stull cemetary? Plot convenience and voila. Strangers things have happened. Take Dean completely out of the episode and have a stranger drive the car there because they feel like it, have Sam see his toy soldier and defeat Lucifer and you have pretty much the same Season 5 Finale you have now. Nothing about the plot changes.

Equally, another hunter could have taken on the Leviathan quest and killed Dick Roman. It didn`t happen that way because they needed to fill the Winchester screentime during Season 7 with something but it could have. Dean was far from irreplaceable. Take the Winchesters completely out of Season 7 and fill their role in with two random hunters, have one of them get the happenstance kill in the end. Nothing about the plot changes. That they don`t do that for behind the scenes reasons doesn`t change my view on it.

The Leviathans IMO were their own arc which happened to be the main one. They had squat to do with the Winchesters. Bobby had probably the biggest arc in Season 7 with the ghost-journey, then Sam with the hellucinations, Cas is iffy because he just had crazyness. Dean had some emo depression. Blergh.

AwesomO4000 · January 23, 2015

It wasn`t his destiny, he wasn`t supernaturally chosen for it, the Leviathan`s plan didn`t stand or fall with him and he wasn`t literally the only person in the world who could do it.

For me those are all pretty much the same thing or very related. And what does it matter if Dean wasn't "destined" for it? He stopped the apocalypse, and killing Dick Roman got rid of the leviathan problem more decisively than anything else Sam and Dean had done previously, in my opinion. Sure, Luke supposedly "used the force" and blew up the Death Star, but really anyone who was a great shot could've done what he did in the end. That's not the point. The point was that he did it.

There is also the interpretation that killing Dick Roman actually was the act to "end it" (the apocalypse), because actually it did. Sam falling into the cage didn't really end anything, because apparently there was some other way the angels could spring Lucifer after all and start the thing right back up again - see below. So technically Dean did "end it" just not how everyone originally thought or predicted he would. * How Dean of him.

* and it really wouldn't have been Dean ending it anyway, because it actually would have been Michael in a Dean meatsuit that ended it if Dean had said yes. I wouldn't have bought Dean overcoming Michael since Michael had no chinks in his armor or reason to give up like Lucifer did, so a destiny to be an "angel condom" (TM Dean), in my opinion, is pretty lame anyway.

Whereas it would have been technically possible that Bobby or Cas drove the car there or even a random person who found the keys in the ignition. Why that random person would then go to Stull cemetary? Plot convenience and voila. Strangers things have happened. Take Dean completely out of the episode and have a stranger drive the car there because they feel like it, have Sam see his toy soldier and defeat Lucifer and you have pretty much the same Season 5 Finale you have now. Nothing about the plot changes.

In your interpretation, yes. In mine, that actually would have been worse. Either Sam or Lucifer seeing the soldier and remembering or seeing all the things in the past Sam now didn't have when he needed it the most because Dean gave up on him and left him to his fate would've meant that Sam likely would have given up, and/or Lucifer would've been thinking "Ha ha, you once had all that, but your brother abandoned you too, since you apparently weren't worth his time even potentially on the last day on earth." Not exactly the stunning support Sam generally takes comfort and strength from from Dean. It would've negated Sam's faith and strength he took from Dean in "Point of No Return," since apparently, no, they weren't in this together and Dean didn't trust him or think Sam could win, and instead Dean just shrugged his shoulders and didn't show up. In my opinion, had that happened, Sam would've just given up - like he apparently did in "The End." The whole point of "The End" was Dean not there for Sam = Sam not strong enough to resist Lucifer and the world ends. I thought that message was pretty straightforward and kind of anvillicious myself. Sure Froto was destined to carry the ring, but to me, it was obvious that Froto would've failed if he hadn't had Sam to carry him part of the way. (It was obvious, to me, that Sam was as much the hero if not more so in that story, and it was Sam who was my favorite character.) In this show, the writers even gave us an episode with the alternate ending just to point a neon sign to that fact.

And at first Lucifer beat Dean up, and Sam couldn't resist, but that was the point. Even being beaten up, Dean would stay, swearing support, and with the memory flashbacks - which were all about Sam and Dean together, not Sam doing heroic things on his own - it was shown to always be true. Lucifer would never have that - and seeing Sam's memories, he was made brutally aware of that. Lucifer's pride was wounded / he gave up / etc. And for me, it wouldn't have happened if Dean hadn't been present, since a random someone wasn't going to illicit the same response from either Lucifer or Sam. And what inspiration would a toy soldier - previously only mentioned in relation to Dean - triggering Sam's memories with a brother who once supported him, but now wasn't there when Sam needed him the most be to rally Sam to fight? That doesn't make much sense to me. But miles vary.

On the other hand Lucifer did not and would not go confront Michael until he had HIS true vessel. He would accept noone else.

Except if Michael had gotten off his duff earlier when he originally got Adam and forced a showdown then, Lucifer wouldn't have had a choice. And he actually might have had a better chance staying in Nick actually, since there would be no key to open the cage again involved. It was Lucifer's arrogance that lead him to wait for Sam, since he was sure that he could overcome Sam and Dean's little plan, and that he could get Sam - and Michael - to "love" him in the end and see that he was right all along. If Lucifer hadn't been so arrogant, he would've stayed completely away from the Winchesters and the key to the cage - or sent demons to kill Dean and grab the key. But nope, Lucifer wanted to prove he was the "good guy" more than he wanted to win. In my opinion, it had at least as much to do with Lucifer's arrogance and him wanting to prove that he was right than him wanting his "true" vessel, especially since Michael didn't have his either.

Also apparently Sam's huge destiny to free Lucifer and be his vessel wasn't that set in stone either. The whole conflict in season 6 came about because Castiel needed to defeat Raphael so Raphael and his followers couldn't spring Lucifer out of the cage again... so apparently there must have been an alternate way to do that somehow in which Sam didn't need to be involved or Castiel could've just shrugged his shoulders and not bothered fighting against Raphael since it was never going to happen anyway. So apparently Sam could be replaced and/or wasn't as necessary as we were lead to believe either in season 5.

Dick Roman himself wasn`t focused on Dean for the entire Season for that reason.

But he was more personally involved with Dean than Sam. Sam was incidental to Dick mostly and wasn't the one who promised to kill him.

Aeryn13 · January 23, 2015

In your interpretation, yes. In mine, that actually would have been worse.

That`s the thing, I just hate and will forever hate that episode for being so wishy-washy with Dean`s role, not only in the episode itself but all the ones say from the Season 3 Finale on (I could rewrite you the entire Seasons 4 and 5 apparently without Dean because he was not plot-needed after all), that I actually have to interpret it in a way to still keep him relevant. But the reading that he totally isn`t is just as valid to take away from what they showed onscreen.

I don`t want to have to work hard and try to convince myself despite the show that my favourite character wasn`t completely superfluous. Lots of people read it as "the car did it/the toy soldier did it" and lots of people thought "Sam overcame Lucifer by his own will-power, full stop". Meaning Dean`s "contribution" was some nebulous something. This episode was the most important one in the show to date, it capped off a five-year myth-arc, something no episode before has and no other will if I`m realistic and it couldn`t make it clear, actually clear that Dean had a valid role? They could do that for Sam alright. Even for the freaking car, they could do it. But not for Dean. Heck, a guest star from Season 4 could take Dean`s "role" in the entire arc apparently, making it clear how little to nothing it meant. Because even in my scenario, you couldn`t cut Adam from the episode. Dean, yes, but not Adam. Hence, he was more important to the episode in my eyes. That is why it is a failure to me.

Samwise in LOTR was a hero because we literally saw him carrying the ring and Frodo with the ring for a time. We literally saw onscreen Frodo give in and fail in the end and Sam to prevail. His role was made abudantly clear in a way Dean`s was not. That is the big difference between them.

catrox14 · January 23, 2015

I try to get on board the "Dean saved Sam so Sam could save the world" in Swan Song but I just can't see how what Dean did was relevant.

If they had shown Sam looking at Dean's bloody and beaten face and making some kind of eye contact that triggered Sam's memories I would have totally been on board that it was Dean that saved Sam. But that's not what we got. We got Samifer seeing a toy soldier in the car and that is what triggered the memories that jarred Sam enough to gain control of Lucifer. To me, that meant that it was the car and that toy soldier that mattered to Sam's battle. That they could have dropped Baby in from an airplane and set her down in front of Sam. Sam beating the shit out of Dean didn't trigger the process at all so even Dean's being a punching bag didn't matter.

If you contrast that with Castiel punching Dean and Dean breaking through to Castiel, that meant that Dean HAD to be the one to get through to Cas in s8. But in s5, Dean's two year arc of going to Hell, being the Righteous Man and Michael's chosen vessel meant NOTHING. I never understand that decision and I still don't and it makes Swan Song my most loathed episode as well. Mostly because it was being touted as the battle between the brothers but oh btw we didn't mean Dean and Sam or Dean and Sam as vessels, but just about Michael and Lucifer. Sigh...

AwesomO4000 · January 23, 2015

We literally saw onscreen Frodo give in and fail in the end and Sam to prevail. His role was made abudantly clear in a way Dean`s was not. That is the big difference between them.

And here is where we disagree. I thought that it was clear. In fact, for me, it was very clear. For me, we literally saw Sam onscreen give in and fail: when he drank the gallons of blood, he once again became overly confident - Jared played this well in my opinion - his whole body language changed, and his face and voice became gruffer and colder. Then Sam let the blood influence him, made a hasty decision, and said "yes" when he shouldn't have. Then he failed to defeat Lucifer when he should have been the most powerful - hopped up on blood. In other words, Sam failed - spectacularly. If this was going to be the "Sam does this all on his own. Harah!" story: that is where you have Sam defeat Lucifer and there you go. But that's not what happened. On his own, Sam failed...

Next we had the whole trope of everyone else giving up on Sam and the situation - except Dean - just to drive home the point that maybe this is important here that Dean is not giving up. Otherwise what would it matter if Dean gave up on Sam and the situation, too? In fact that would make Sam even more the hero, because he did it all on his own when no one else believed in him. Then Castiel and Bobby come to the cemetery - not because they believe in Sam, but to support Dean - Castiel points this out by saying "you have your 5 minutes." They are doing this for Dean and because they believe in Dean. They already made it clear earlier that "well there wasn't much hope (that Sam would succeed) anyway." Dean has made it possible for Castiel and Bobby to be there and provide the needed 5 minutes of distraction, because they believed in him.

Then the actual soldier scene - that is not Sam seeing the soldier. That's Lucifer. Jared plays Lucifer very differently, and for me, you can literally see when "Sam" takes over and it's after all of the memory flashes. Sam only "wins" because of what Lucifer sees and is confronted with - a brotherly bond he won't ever have. His brother doesn't care about him like Dean cares about Sam and only wants to follow "dad's orders." Michael will kill Lucifer, whereas Dean refused to do so, and would rather die with his brother than have done so. This wound to Lucifer's pride happens, in my opinion, only because Dean is there and made the whole situation possible - bringing the Impala, convincing Bobby and Castiel to come, etc.

Is it sappy? Hell yeah. It's sappy as hell. Would it have been more clear if say Dean had pushed Sam and/or Michael into the hole or opened the portal? Yes, but then that would've taken away Sam's choice to make the sacrifice, and to me, an action sequence wasn't what this was about. It was about the sappy. Dean fulfilled his role: he brought the support no matter what even when Sam failed - as Sam did when he first said "yes" - that wounded Lucifer's pride and allowed Sam to take control. Dean undid the future we saw in "The End" where he didn't show up for Sam when Sam needed him. This wasn't about Sam needing to be physically carried - it was about Sam needing Dean to believe in him and trust in him again, even when he screws up sometimes. (A thing with Sam which they keep bringing back up again and again even in later seasons.)

So yes, Dean being there was entirely necessary, and I thought clearly shown and even foreshadowed by "The End."

and it couldn`t make it clear, actually clear that Dean had a valid role? They could do that for Sam alright.

Well in this episode, yes, but as I said before: about time. Exactly why was Sam in the second episode of the season 2 finale again? The ending of an arc concerning the YED that Sam had supposedly been a part of since season 1 where the YED had killed Sam's girlfriend, killed his Dad, wrecked his life and even caused him to get killed and contributed to his brother selling his soul? Yet Sam might as well have stayed recovering in bed after he was brought back from the dead for all that he contributed to its conclusion, despite his insistence that he go with. Unlike Dean in the above scenario with at least the emotional support which at least I considered crucial to Sam's win, here Sam was lying uselessly on the ground, out of earshot, while Dean got help from John, the ghost (or whatever he was).Sam didn't even get to hear what was going on. Well, maybe Sam could get closure by keeping Dean from going to hell... wait, nope he was pretty useless there too. Or stopping Lucifer from rising.. oops nope, guess he ended up causing that one. In my opinion, Sam needed closure - in a positive way - for something.

Because even in my scenario, you couldn`t cut Adam from the episode. Dean, yes, but not Adam. Hence, he was more important to the episode in my eyes.

Except Adam's role here was to be the patsy and the victim. Collateral damage who was lost and apparently mostly forgotten. Even if Dean had done absolutely nothing in this episode - which as I stated above was not what I saw at all - he at least was there in the story and was the one to save Sam - again - later on. And apparently the only one who even knew to save Sam and/or even bothered to do so.

Edited to add:

To me, that meant that it was the car and that toy soldier that mattered to Sam's battle.

But that doesn't make much sense to me. Why would the car or a toy soldier by itself trigger anything in Sam or Lucifer?

If they had shown Sam looking at Dean's bloody and beaten face and making some kind of eye contact that triggered Sam's memories I would have totally been on board that it was Dean that saved Sam.

But Sam was trapped in Lucifer. And Lucifer was enjoying beating on Dean, because he was pissed off. I guess the toy soldier was supposed to represent their history, not just them in the here and now. But there really was no "good" way to do it anyway in my opinion. If I thought it was all about Sam breaking through - which eye-contact directly with Dean might have implied - I wouldn't have believed that. Lucifer in control isn't going to have a "connection" with Dean, and I wouldn't buy Sam being able to break through on his own, even with Dean's support - or he would've done it in the first place when he first said "yes." I guess the soldier was supposed to catch Lucifer off guard - a sneaky way for the memories to get in? - because brute force (obviously, since Sam failed) and the direct approach wasn't going to do it. :: Shrug ::

But you are right. I do wish they could've somehow shown it was Dean himself who triggered the memory flashbacks for Lucifer without it looking like it was Sam controlling the memories/situation. That might have been tough to do though.

If you contrast that with Castiel punching Dean and Dean breaking through to Castiel, that meant that Dean HAD to be the one to get through to Cas in s8.

Castiel wasn't possessed though. he was brainwashed, but it was still cas himself in control of his body.

Edited January 23, 2015 by AwesomO4000

rue721 · January 23, 2015

This is simplistic, so apologies for that, but when makes me sure that it was Dean (rather than Baby) showing up to the graveyard that was important, was that the memories that gave Sam the strength to overwhelm Lucifer for a moment weren't about Sam and Baby, or times that Baby was there for Sam -- they were about Sam and Dean.

I hate Swan Song because I think it's poorly written (sorry Kripke, but I know you coulda done better) but when Lucifer!Sam is beating Dean, and Dean keeps telling Sam not to worry, that he'd be there and Sam wouldn't be alone, it always chokes me up. Dean wasn't there because he thought he could save Sam -- all he could do to make things better for Sam was to stay beside him, so that's what he did. And that's the help that Sam needed in order to pull Lucifer into the hole. I think that Dean actually had a much bigger impact in that fight than he expected, and it was because he and Sam are stronger together than he'd expected. Sam was able to defeat Lucifer because they were working as a unit. Alone, Sam wouldn't have had the strength, and Dean wouldn't have had the strength alone, either. Lucifer was alone, and that's why he lost.

catrox14 · January 23, 2015

This is simplistic, so apologies for that, but when makes me sure that it was Dean (rather than Baby) showing up to the graveyard that was important, was that the memories that gave Sam the strength to overwhelm Lucifer for a moment weren't about Sam and Baby, or times that Baby was there for Sam -- they were about Sam and Dean.

I hate Swan Song because I think it's poorly written (sorry Kripke, but I know you coulda done better) but when Lucifer!Sam is beating Dean, and Dean keeps telling Sam not to worry, that he'd be there and Sam wouldn't be alone, it always chokes me up. Dean wasn't there because he thought he could save Sam -- all he could do to make things better for Sam was to stay beside him, so that's what he did. And that's the help that Sam needed in order to pull Lucifer into the hole. I think that Dean actually had a much bigger impact in that fight than he expected, and it was because he and Sam are stronger together than he'd expected. Sam was able to defeat Lucifer because they were working as a unit. Alone, Sam wouldn't have had the strength, and Dean wouldn't have had the strength alone, either. Lucifer was alone, and that's why he lost.

The memories were of Dean of course, but the way it was shot didn't shout to me that it was Dean that triggered the memories.

Dean went because he didn't want Sam to be alone when Sam died which is a loving act. But there is much interpretation that Dean went to save Sam so Sam could save the world. Samifer beating on Dean didn't trigger Sam to get control of Lucifer. If all it took was Dean being by Sam's side, why did Samifer ever hit Dean in the first place? Because essentially if it's just Dean's presence that saved the day, that should have happened the moment Dean drove up. But really all Dean did was deliver the trigger to Sam's getting the upper hand. If it was Lucifer that reliquished control why would a toy soldier in the Impala do that? I thought it was always Sam that saw the soldier that allowed him to gain control. And for all of Dean saying "Sam, I'm here every time Sam bashed him in the face, why wasn't it one of those moments that allowed Sam to get control? And if it was Lucifer relenting what made him relent? Ugh. I hate that episode so very much for so very many reasons.

Edited January 23, 2015 by catrox14

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