Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[auntvi]

3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'm with you; I hated that episode.

6

[Wayward Son]

I love On The Head of a Pin and hated Benny. A poorly thought out cliche character that was clearly only there for Dean to use as a weapon against Sam. As shown by the fact once that purpose was served back to purgatory the writers send him.

[flyinghigh]

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

had to look back to see which epi were discussing, so I'm going to post that it's On th eHead of a Pin, to save others the trouble in case they were wondering.

Though I agree the later comment about Jensen's acting, I am pretty sure of my reasons for not liking this particular episode.

• If I am not wrong, I haven't seen this episode in a while, it is in this episode where Sam comes to save the day, as Urial had broken the devil's trap?
• And before that, correct me if I am wrong, Sam says that Dean is not strong enough to handle Alister as hell had done something to him.
• After Dean is put in the hospital as Cas, for some reason is unable to cure him, fuming Sam leaves injured Dean to go to Ruby.

But I loved the episode that followed  Its a Terrible Life

This is season 4 - not my favourite season!!

[flyinghigh]

On 5/19/2017 at 7:40 PM, Hana Chan said:

Been awhile since I posted here, but I need to say this - Castiel was long past his expiration date.

For me, the only two characters that are completely indispensible are Dean and Sam. End of story. Everyone else is a supporting player in their story and it's been clear for a very long time that the show was running out of justifications to keep Castiel around. He's been useful at time, and more often than not convenient for a cheap laugh, but his purpose has long since passed. And we've lost other supporting players that I felt a ton of affection so I never felt that Castiel was off limits to being removed permanently. It was especially problematic when the writers tried, unsuccessfully IMO, to expand Castiel's storyline to run more independently of the Winchesters. 

So if this really is Castiel's final death, I'm more than okay with that. He was never my favorite and I'm hoping that in the next season that we can return to something along the lines of season one where it was all Sam and Dean, all the time. 

Agree.

I have never been a big fan of Cas anyways.

 IMO even if the actor is firm favourite of the fans, if he has no place in the story line, he shouldn't be part of the plot. Such a lot is written about weak plots and writing of SPN, I think pushing Cas down our throats because he is 'fan favourite' is a big NO NO.

So yes, if Cas is dead, I hope he remains dead, unless writers have a strong and plausible story for him.

15 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I know this is an unpopular opinion, and let me start by saying that I love Misha Collins and used to love Cas until probably around the back half of season 9 or start of season 10, but I'm hoping that Cas is dead and stays dead for a while.  For me, his story lines have been dreadfully dull for years now.  If his story lines are supposed to be filling out the time the Winchesters aren't on screen, and we're getting less and less time with the Winchesters on screen, then Cas's story lines should be good, and they aren't, because the writers have hit a wall on him (and angels in general).

+1

Edited May 23, 2017 by flyinghigh

[Idahoforspn]

22 minutes ago, flyinghigh said:

Though I agree the later comment about Jensen's acting, I am pretty sure of my reasons for not liking this particular episode.

• If I am not wrong, I haven't seen this episode in a while, it is in this episode where Sam comes to save the day, as Urial had broken the devil's trap?
• And before that, correct me if I am wrong, Sam says that Dean is not strong enough to handle Alister as hell had done something to him.
• After Dean is put in the hospital as Cas, for some reason is unable to cure him, fuming Sam leaves injured Dean to go to Ruby.

But I loved the episode that followed  Its a Terrible Life

This is season 4 - not my favourite season!!

In addition I wasn't happy with the Daddy's little girl broke in thirty when Daddy apparently lasted a hundred. IMO, there were a number of script problems in the episode  but I loved it because I was in awe of Jensen's acting. He portrayed a Dean that was real and hurt and very badly broken. That kind of acting is what brought me to SPN in the first place and that is what has and is keeping me here. I haven't gotten quite mad enough at the writing yet to give that up. I don't care about Jensen's looks or his singing or any of the peripheral stuff.  What I care about is that Jensen makes a character that I find compelling come to life for me on the screen. His acting isn't always perfect but its usually very good and at times it's absolutely spectacular. 

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

and hated Benny. A poorly thought out cliche character that was clearly only there for Dean to use as a weapon against Sam. As shown by the fact once that purpose was served back to purgatory the writers send him.

I can understand how you wouldn't have enjoyed his character but I don't see how he was a weapon against Sam. Season 8 had a ridiculous amount of angst thrown into their relationship; I just don't see Benny as the main reason for their discord. They were more or less back to their usual relationship by the time Benny went back to purgatory. But as always MMV.

5 hours ago, flyinghigh said:

Though I agree the later comment about Jensen's acting, I am pretty sure of my reasons for not liking this particular episode.

• If I am not wrong, I haven't seen this episode in a while, it is in this episode where Sam comes to save the day, as Urial had broken the devil's trap?
• And before that, correct me if I am wrong, Sam says that Dean is not strong enough to handle Alister as hell had done something to him.
• After Dean is put in the hospital as Cas, for some reason is unable to cure him, fuming Sam leaves injured Dean to go to Ruby.

But I loved the episode that followed  Its a Terrible Life

This is season 4 - not my favourite season!!

Agree with all of this! The bolded part is an additional reason why I loathed this episode and most of season 4 in general. Don't get me wrong Jensen's acting was stellar as always; this episode just sucked big time.

[SueB]

An apparently UO... much to my surprise... I LOVE "On The Head of A Pin".  For me:
- Sam is an unreliable narrator -- he's got the guilt of not saving Dean himself plus he's now a power & demon blood addict
- At LAST we see the extent of the damage done to Dean in Hell.  Jensen does an awesome job of showing both his real fear and his ability to tap into a cruel defense of that fear.
- Anything Alastair says in taunting him that implies Dean is weak is suspect because Alastair is STILL playing headgames.  And Christopher H. is MASTERFUL (IMO) in that role.  He seemed like a worthy psychological opponent.
- I don't believe John was the "righteous man".  John WAS a shell of himself on earth.  He might have been more stubborn than Dean, but he was mentally weaker than Dean.  Frankly, he was mentally weaker than Dean when Dean was a CHILD.  Dean is the one who took care of Sammy. John partitioned his life into "fight monsters/demons", "physically protect kids."  And that last part he put mostly on Dean.  So... pffffft... he wasn't all that righteous to begin with. And even if he DID (which I'm not so sure) survive Alastair's torture, it's because he was mentally whack in the first place (potentially due to Cupid's spell).  

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, SueB said:

An apparently UO... much to my surprise... I LOVE "On The Head of A Pin".  For me:
- Sam is an unreliable narrator -- he's got the guilt of not saving Dean himself plus he's now a power & demon blood addict
- At LAST we see the extent of the damage done to Dean in Hell.  Jensen does an awesome job of showing both his real fear and his ability to tap into a cruel defense of that fear.
- Anything Alastair says in taunting him that implies Dean is weak is suspect because Alastair is STILL playing headgames.  And Christopher H. is MASTERFUL (IMO) in that role.  He seemed like a worthy psychological opponent.
- I don't believe John was the "righteous man".  John WAS a shell of himself on earth.  He might have been more stubborn than Dean, but he was mentally weaker than Dean.  Frankly, he was mentally weaker than Dean when Dean was a CHILD.  Dean is the one who took care of Sammy. John partitioned his life into "fight monsters/demons", "physically protect kids."  And that last part he put mostly on Dean.  So... pffffft... he wasn't all that righteous to begin with. And even if he DID (which I'm not so sure) survive Alastair's torture, it's because he was mentally whack in the first place (potentially due to Cupid's spell).  

Agree. It was a brutally painful episode to watch as someone who loves Dean, but we needed to know what really happened to him in Hell. The things Alistair said to him were cruel and struck at the heart of who Dean is - but that was the point, IMO. He's a demon and by all accounts, Hell's most effective torturer. Jensen's final scene in the hospital was masterful. FWIW I also think he was lying about John, because it was the most effective way to break Dean's spirit.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't believe John was the "Righteous Man" either, nor do I believe he lasted longer than Dean. I think that was all Alistair using lies to twist the knife deeper into Dean.

But, as I said, my reasons for disliking the episode isn't that I don't understand it, I just think they didn't fully get there with this one. And, since I think this was an important they get right--which, IMO, I don't think they did--I think of it as a fail, in my book. It has all the right ingredients, but the flavor just didn't come through for me. 

5 hours ago, flyinghigh said:

If I am not wrong, I haven't seen this episode in a while, it is in this episode where Sam comes to save the day, as Urial had broken the devil's trap?

Sam did kill Alistair, but, IMO, Anna got the big save of the episode when she killed Uriel. While Sam did save Dean, Dean probably could've saved himself except he didn't want to save himself at that point. I thought that was important for what was going on with Dean as a character at that point.

5 hours ago, flyinghigh said:

And before that, correct me if I am wrong, Sam says that Dean is not strong enough to handle Alister as hell had done something to him.

Yes, Sam did say that, but IMO it only went to show how far Sam has his head up his own ass with the demon blood addiction. While I disagree with Sam's assessment and think he's being an ass, I actually think that is important to what's happening to Sam at the time.  

5 hours ago, flyinghigh said:

After Dean is put in the hospital as Cas, for some reason is unable to cure him, fuming Sam leaves injured Dean to go to Ruby.

Actually, Sam doesn't go back to Ruby. He tells Cass to fix him, Cass can't--I don't know why--and Sam goes back in Dean's hospital room. We follow Cass for the rest of the episode. If Sam goes back to Ruby, it was never shown.

I would assume Cass couldn't heal Dean because then we wouldn't get the literally broken Dean effect later when Dean says he's metaphorically broken. However, since Dean is just fine in the next episode, someone obviously does heal him. Maybe Cass was ordered not to so Dean could "feel" the consequences of his disobedience? The angels are dicks, after all.

Edited May 23, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Idahoforspn]

52 minutes ago, SueB said:

An apparently UO... much to my surprise... I LOVE "On The Head of A Pin".  For me:
- Sam is an unreliable narrator -- he's got the guilt of not saving Dean himself plus he's now a power & demon blood addict
- At LAST we see the extent of the damage done to Dean in Hell.  Jensen does an awesome job of showing both his real fear and his ability to tap into a cruel defense of that fear.
- Anything Alastair says in taunting him that implies Dean is weak is suspect because Alastair is STILL playing headgames.  And Christopher H. is MASTERFUL (IMO) in that role.  He seemed like a worthy psychological opponent.
- I don't believe John was the "righteous man".  John WAS a shell of himself on earth.  He might have been more stubborn than Dean, but he was mentally weaker than Dean.  Frankly, he was mentally weaker than Dean when Dean was a CHILD.  Dean is the one who took care of Sammy. John partitioned his life into "fight monsters/demons", "physically protect kids."  And that last part he put mostly on Dean.  So... pffffft... he wasn't all that righteous to begin with. And even if he DID (which I'm not so sure) survive Alastair's torture, it's because he was mentally whack in the first place (potentially due to Cupid's spell).  

+1

[SueB]

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't believe John was the "Righteous Man" either, nor do I believe he lasted longer than Dean. I think that was all Alistair using lies to twist the knife deeper into Dean.

But, as I said, my reasons for disliking the episode isn't that I don't understand it, I just think didn't they fully got there with this one. And, since I think it was an important they get right--which, IMO, I don't think they did--I think of it as a fail, in my book. It has all the right ingredients, but the flavor just didn't come through for me. 

Sam did kill Alistair, but, IMO, Anna got the big save of the episode when she killed Uriel. While Sam did save Dean, Dean probably could've saved himself except he didn't want to save himself at that point. I thought that was important for what was going on with Dean as a character at that point.

Yes, Sam did say that, but IMO it only went to show how far Sam has his head up his own ass with the demon blood addiction. While I disagree with Sam's assessment and think he's being an ass, I actually think that is important to what's happening to Sam at the time.  

Actually, Sam doesn't go back to Ruby. He tells Cass to fix him, Cass can't--I don't know why--and Sam goes back in Dean's hospital room. We follow Cass for the rest of the episode. If Sam goes back to Ruby, it was never shown.

I would assume Cass couldn't heal Dean because then we wouldn't get the literally broken Dean effect later when Dean says he's metaphorically broken. However, since Dean is just fine in the next episode, someone obviously does heal him. Maybe Cass was ordered not to so Dean could "feel" the consequences of his disobedience? The angels are dicks, after all.

I always presumed Zachriah did. 

[Pondlass1]

That particular scene in the episode On the Head of a Pin was my introduction to the show Supernatural.  I was flipping channels trying to find something to watch when the search was halted and my finger hovered over the remote.  It was Jensen's expression that caught my attention.  He broke the first seal?  WTF was going on?  Didn't know who these guys were, but wow -  who was that actor?  That expression... what was happening?  

I purchased the DVDs next day and for a week or two I lived & breathed Supernatural and I fell  in love with Dean Winchester.  I began watching live sometime during season 7.

So that scene is nestled close to my ❤️ .  Since then Supernatural has grown lighter, campier, skimpier - and the thrill is gradually seeping from me unfortunately.

[Idahoforspn]

26 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

That particular scene in the episode On the Head of a Pin was my introduction to the show Supernatural.  I was flipping channels trying to find something to watch when the search was halted and my finger hovered over the remote.  It was Jensen's expression that caught my attention.  He broke the first seal?  WTF was going on?  Didn't know who these guys were, but wow -  who was that actor?  That expression... what was happening?  

I purchased the DVDs next day and for a week or two I lived & breathed Supernatural and I fell  in love with Dean Winchester.  I began watching live sometime during season 7.

I have a similar story. Channel surfing and stopping at a Dean Winchester magic moment. I started Netflix that day. Went thru all 8 seasons in a few weeks ( didn't get a lot of other stuff done I should have) and have been watching live since premier of 9. I currently own BluRay, DVD, and digital of all the previous seasons. I will probably buy the BluRay  for 12  just for Regarding Dean and the amazing scenes like the one in Mary's head. SPN is the first and only show I even own on DVD. I have never been into a show enough to buy the DVDs before SPN.

Quote

So that scene is nestled close to my ❤️ .  Since then Supernatural has grown lighter, campier, skimpier - and the thrill is gradually seeping from me unfortunately.

Yeah, I agree. But the real Dean still manages to peek thru sometimes.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[catrox14]

My head!canon on why Cas couldn't heal Dean was that Alistair's attempts to send Cas back to Heaven injured Cas to the point that he couldn't heal Dean, even if he wanted to. And then it took Cas time to get back that ability.

[gonzosgirrl]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My head!canon on why Cas couldn't heal Dean was that Alistair's attempts to send Cas back to Heaven injured Cas to the point that he couldn't heal Dean, even if he wanted to. And then it took Cas time to get back that ability.

But Cas put up a pretty badass fight against Uriel after that. I think his powers were blocked by a big heaping pile of *Plotonium. But I always took his "I can't" as an "I'm not allowed" over "I'm not able". Whether it was to drive something home to Dean through leaving him to suffer or not, I don't know.

 

* I learned that word here, and I love it :)

Edited May 23, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But Cas put up a pretty badass fight against Uriel after that. I think his powers were blocked by a big heaping pile of *Plotonium. But I always took his "I can't" as an "I'm not allowed" over "I'm not able". Whether it was to drive something home to Dean through leaving him to suffer or not, I don't know.

 

* I learned that word here, and I love it :)

I also took it as he wasn't allowed to heal Dean without being given expressed permission each time and that Zach did it before putting him into It's a Wonderful Life

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But Cas put up a pretty badass fight against Uriel after that. I think his powers were blocked by a big heaping pile of *Plotonium. I always took his "I can't" as an "I'm not allowed" over "I'm not able". Whether it was to drive something home to Dean through leaving him to suffer or not, I don't know.

 

* I learned that word here, and I love it :)

Eh, Cas got in a couple of good hits but Uriel was beating Cas pretty soundly. He had Cas on his knees and Cas was woozy and flagging and Uriel was going to kill him when Anna showed up to kill Uriel. If not for her, Cas was a dead duck.

But I can see you rationale that Zachariah didn't permit it.

Edited May 23, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, since Dean is just fine in the next episode, someone obviously does heal him.

Or enough time passed between the two episodes that Dean healed naturally.

[Mari]

based on the episode thread, I should probably put this in a little tiny font, but I loathed Rowena and am glad the character is dead and glad she died off-screen.  She always seemed to me like she was a misfit shoved in from another show.  

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Or enough time passed between the two episodes that Dean healed naturally.

That severe of injuries would have taken many weeks to heal completely. Dean isnt even showing old bruising in the next episode. IMO, someone healed him but it wasn't Cas so Zach is the logical choice

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

That severe of injuries would have taken many weeks to heal completely. Dean isnt even showing old bruising in the next episode. IMO, someone healed him but it wasn't Cas so Zach is the logical choice

Unless Cas did it on the DL after the conversation.  Cas had told Sam he couldn't before he had that heart to heart with Dean, maybe something in the convo caused Cas to reconsider so he healed him anyway, and it planted the seed in Cas that lead Cas to rebel in Lucifer Rising.

Edited May 23, 2017 by catrox14

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Unless Cas did it on the DL after the conversation he had with Dean at the end and that conversation planted a seed in Cas to rebel in Lucifer Rising...

That's a possibility.

[gonzosgirrl]

32 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

That severe of injuries would have taken many weeks to heal completely. Dean isnt even showing old bruising in the next episode. IMO, someone healed him but it wasn't Cas so Zach is the logical choice

It was Zachariah who shoved them into the alt world in the next episode, so it seems logical to head-canon he fixed Dean up as well. He wouldn't be very convincing as a buttoned-down corporate stooge if he had a busted up face and choke marks on his neck.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It was Zachariah who shoved them into the alt world in the next episode, so it seems logical to head-canon he fixed Dean up as well. He wouldn't be very convincing as a buttoned-down corporate stooge if he had a busted up face and choke marks on his neck.

The problem with those episodes being back to back is that the amount of time that has passed is unclear. 

It seems to me Zachariah had to have a reason to put Dean into that world to show him he will always go back to hunting which implies that Dean was having major doubts about continuing in the hunting life as a result of this 'Righteous Man' revelation and what he did in Hell.  It seems to me he would need to let Dean fester in that doubt for at least a few days at minimum before deciding to put him in that world. So some of Dean's wounds probably did start to heal on their own before he or another angel, healed him.

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The problem with those episodes being back to back is that the amount of time that has passed is unclear. 

It seems to me Zachariah had to have a reason to put Dean into that world to show him he will always go back to hunting which implies that Dean was having major doubts about continuing in the hunting life as a result of this 'Righteous Man' revelation and what he did in Hell.  It seems to me he would need to let Dean fester in that doubt for at least a few days at minimum before deciding to put him in that world. So some of Dean's wounds probably did start to heal on their own before he or another angel, healed him.

A few days, sure - but he went from this to this.

Of course I'm still trying to figure out how both of them went un-scarred after Shadow, in S1 with no angelic interference. LOL!

Edited May 23, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

seems to me he would need to let Dean fester in that doubt for at least a few days at minimum before deciding to put him in that world. So some of Dean's wounds probably did start to heal on their own before he or another angel, healed him.

I buy a few days or a week before somebody healed him but it would need to be more than a month or more for Dean to heal naturally and look like he did in the next episode. Deep severe bruising fades very very slowly. And the show usually gives us something if there is a time jump of that kind of length. Just my head Canon.

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

A few days, sure - but went from this to this.

 

 

Thanks for the visual. That would have taken more than a couple weeks to do naturally.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I can understand how you wouldn't have enjoyed his character but I don't see how he was a weapon against Sam. Season 8 had a ridiculous amount of angst thrown into their relationship; I just don't see Benny as the main reason for their discord. 

There was this weird vibe that Dean should have apologized or felt ashamed that Benny helped him get out of Purgatory. When Garth asked Dean about escaping Purgatory, Sam gloats in an "haha, now tell your shameful tale" way. Which was just mindblowingly stupid because the only person that tale would have been shameful for would be for Sam. Was Dean supposed to apologize for not waiting around for help that would never have come? 

I think Benny was the only person on the show who never let Dean down. Granted, he wasn`t around for that long but I`ll always treasure him for being the loyalist loyal friend who ever loyaled. 

On the head of a pin, I think has good parts and bad parts. And I thought Alistair was a great character. I wanted Dean to get closure with him, though, by ultimately killing him. 

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I buy a few days or a week before somebody healed him but it would need to be more than a month or more for Dean to heal naturally and look like he did in the next episode. Deep severe bruising fades very very slowly. And the show usually gives us something if there is a time jump of that kind of length. Just my head Canon.

Thanks for the visual. That would have taken more than a couple weeks to do naturally.

Hmmm interestingly though, SuperWiki's timeline is putting two full months between the episodes.

Quote

End of December 2008 - 4.16 On the Head of a Pin

Day Count: (at least) 3 (days may not be consecutive - see notes)

Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming

Angels may dance On The Head Of A Pin, but they apparently can't torture demons without Dean Winchester's help. We spend at least 3 days in Cheyenne, Wyoming.

Days may not be consecutive - Dean is only conscious for the first night, the rest of the time he's recovering and Castiel is trying to figure out what went wrong.

The boys have just come from Pamela's funeral, so we can assume that this episode takes place at most 3 or 4 days after the last episode.

See 4.15 Death Takes a Holiday notes for details on date.

Another important thing we learn in this episode is the fact that John Winchester was in hell for "close to a century" (in hell years)...this fits in well with the July 19th Death-date that I have listed for John in S2.

~March 1st - 24th 2009 - 4.17 It's a Terrible Life

~March 1st - Dean Smith and Sam Wesson both start new jobs at Sandover Bridge and Iron Inc.

Dean and Sam both say that they started working at the company 3 weeks ago. The fact that they both started at the same time, to me, indicates that they actually HAVE been working there the full 3 weeks before meeting up, and the only false memories in their heads are the ones from before their starting date.

~March 24th, 2009

Day Count: 5

Location: Unknown

Dean and Sam discover It's a Terrible Life in corporate America, when, over the course of 5 days, a ghost starts picking off their co-workers, and they both begin to feel like they were meant for other things.

Paul Dunbar, the first guy to commit suicide, was set to retire in 2 weeks, on April 14, 2009, according to Dean's computer.

Edited May 23, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[flyinghigh]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, Sam doesn't go back to Ruby. He tells Cass to fix him, Cass can't--I don't know why--and Sam goes back in Dean's hospital room. We follow Cass for the rest of the episode. If Sam goes back to Ruby, it was never shown.

Thanks.

There is something about this episode which is very painful. I suppose it is broken Dean reliving his memories of hell through Alister. And I really don't like season 4 Sam,

Maybe I should watch this episode to get my facts correct. Or not,

[Idahoforspn]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Hmmm interestingly though, SuperWiki's timeline is putting two full months between the episodes.

I don't follow their timeline. I understand the three week jump. But without the extra time jump, that would put Dean starting the job looking like he been mugged. My brain isn't working. Somebody explain the timeline to me they have.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

A few days, sure - but he went from this to this.

 

20 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

buy a few days or a week before somebody healed him but it would need to be more than a month or more for Dean to heal naturally and look like he did in the next episode. Deep severe bruising fades very very slowly. And the show usually gives us something if there is a time jump of that kind of length. Just my head Canon.

I didn't say there was no other healing by an external party.  Quoting myself FTR:

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The problem with those episodes being back to back is that the amount of time that has passed is unclear. [snip]

[snip]  It seems to me he would need to let Dean fester in that doubt for at least a few days at minimum before deciding to put him in that world. So some of Dean's wounds probably did start to heal on their own before he or another angel, healed him.

This tells me that more time passed between the events of OtHoaP and IaTL than a week.  And it allows for some of Dean's wounds to have healed naturally whilst he becomes more depressed and thinking of leaving hunting.  Zachariah's entire goal ws to keep Dean in the hunting life so he could keep manipulating him. If he healed him right away how was that going to teach Dean a lesson about needing to live the hunting life? Zachariah said he didn't have the benefit of his memories. So which memories did Zachariah remove in order to drag Dean's hunting instincts out?

I love IaTL but it doesn't make much sense to me why Zachariah would have healed Dean, taken away his memories of being told he was the reason the first seal broke which is what the angels wanted in the end. Why would he not use that horrifying moment in Dean's life to continue to break him? If that didn't work, then Zachariah would heal Dean and put him in another life.

It's a Terrible Life is fun in a way but it really doesn't make much sense to Dean's arc, at all really. IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I didn't say there was no other healing by an external party.  Quoting myself FTR:

This tells me that more time passed between the events of OtHoaP and IaTL than a week.  And it allows for some of Dean's wounds to have healed naturally whilst he becomes more depressed and thinking of leaving hunting.  Zachariah's entire goal ws to keep Dean in the hunting life so he could keep manipulating him. If he healed him right away how was that going to teach Dean a lesson about needing to live the hunting life? Zachariah said he didn't have the benefit of his memories. So which memories did Zachariah remove in order to drag Dean's hunting instincts out?

I love IaTL but it doesn't make much sense to me why Zachariah would have healed Dean, taken away his memories of being told he was the reason the first seal broke which is what the angels wanted in the end. Why would he not use that horrifying moment in Dean's life to continue to break him? If that didn't work, then Zachariah would heal Dean and put him in another life.

It's a Terrible Life is fun in a way but it really doesn't make much sense to Dean's arc, at all really. IMO.

Sorry! I got on a tangent and didn't read properly. :)

To the bolded part: I kind of thought the purpose wasn't about teaching Dean that he needed to be a hunter, but that no matter what he did, he would always come back to it (or it would come back to him).

Edited May 23, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I don't follow their timeline. I understand the three week jump. But without the extra time jump, that would put Dean starting the job looking like he been mugged. My brain isn't working. Somebody explain the timeline to me they have.

Eh, people really don't all heal at the same rate. Dean and Sam both seem to not carry bruises for that long. Maybe they use arnica cream to help speed the healing of bruises. Maybe metrosexual Dean Smith covered up his bruises with some make up he borrowed from his next door neighbor before starting the job.

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

s. Maybe metrosexual Dean Smith covered up his bruises with some make up he borrowed from his next door neighbor before starting the job.

LOL.  OK, I'll go with that. Hurts my brain less.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

LOL.  OK, I'll go with that. Hurts my brain less.

I was only being a little snarky, but Dean Smith does seem like he was pretty fastidious about his appearance and he definitely used hair product, so what's a little foundation to put on his best face at his new job?

My head!canon is fully accepted by...myself. LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was only being a little snarky, but Dean Smith does seem like he was pretty fastidious about his appearance and he definitely used hair product, so what's a little foundation to put on his best face at his new job?

My head!canon is fully accepted by...myself. LOL

He's a painted whore! :P

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He's a painted whore! :P

LOL YES! well played

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Hmmm interestingly though, SuperWiki's timeline is putting two full months between the episodes.

I believe that was the year the Winter Olympics were in Vancouver so production had to take a break. That might be why the timeline jumped so far?

It's interesting because I never really noticed the time jump between the two episodes because I didn't start watching live until the end of S6. I always figured Zachariah had healed him before replacing his memories and such, but now with this information it actually makes sense to me that Dean healed naturally. Dean wouldn't want to be "fixed" after everything he learned here.  

[ILoveReading]

I just put it down to CW cream.

Because without it Sam should have four huge scars across his face after Shadow.

Edited May 23, 2017 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I just put it down to CW cream.

Because without it Sam should have four huge scars across his face after Shadow.

Dean too (see pics above).

[Airmid]

2 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

I don't follow their timeline.

Honestly, the show doesn't either. We've had two time skips (season 6 and season 8 premiered with one year later) but its usually forgotten. So at this point I just try not to worry about it and figure they laid low and healed somewhere.

6 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

 Since then Supernatural has grown lighter, campier, skimpier - and the thrill is gradually seeping from me unfortunately.

I so wish they had some kind of show bible. It's apparent they don't and just make up things on the fly and it drives me nuts when they violate their own canon in egregious ways. Like what they did to reapers. Death Takes a Holiday is an episode I have problems rewatching. Not because it's bad, the exact opposite. There was so much going on, what the reapers were, how hard they were to kill, that they were part of the seals and if one dies death slows down in the town until another comes. (Though that might also have been influenced by the spell work). They were a neutral force for the most part, which was nice to see in a world where there are always sides.

It was an excellent episode for Pamela, and what she tells Sam at the end and he still doesn't listen.

Now, any fool with the proper weapon can stick it in a reaper and kill them because they're some kind of angel. Now, there are rogue ones that drive taxis and pop into the other realms like it aint no thing. Too bad Sam didn't know about that at the end of season three as others have said - he could have popped on in to hell and dragged his brother out. Wasn't like an entire garrison of angels had to storm hell to pull Dean out, or anything. All he needed was to put a watch on the exit door and wander around a bit. They probably would have gotten back in time for dinner and pie.

Seems like all hell is now is a quick stop over, grimy halls and a few cells. A condemned office building that had an eccentric interior decorator with a passion for 'lived in beyond repair' styles. Demons used to talk about how they didn't want to be there, that they were tortured still for failure and it twisted the humanity out of their souls. They talked about how hard it was to get out, like Ruby. They talked about how Alastair was an exception because he preferred being in hell compared to earth when most demons wanted to crawl their way out. It made him menacing, of how much he enjoyed the pain of others and perhaps even when it was put on him.

Later on, Bobby just strolls on out after over a century and isn't worse for it. John supposedly didn't break after a century (I don't buy that). But Dean broke like a little girl after thirty years?

Just...screw you show. Hell should be terrifying, it should be destruction of everything that makes a human, well, human. Less is more and I will always be bitter that they showed so much of hell and made it like a revolving door instead of the eternal damnation of the soul that they had going on years ago.

 

59 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I just put it down to CW cream.

Because without it Sam should have four huge scars across his face after Shadow.

I like to think that there are amazing healing powers in dental floss stitches and whiskey antiseptic. If only the modern medical world followed these simple steps, scars would be a thing of the past... ;)

[catrox14]

I put Sam and Dean post Hell lack of scarring down to Castiel's handiwork. Dean was pretty sure he was all healed up from Castiel and even re-virginized. Sam had the same gift when he was resurrected...minus the soul..but you know.

Dean seemed to be able to heal himself when he was a demon, so I'm going with demon!Dean loved looking good, I mean look at his hair, so he self healed his scars except the two little ones on his chin and he leaves those as "street cred" scars so other demons don't think he's just a pretty boy who can be trifled with. ( I miss demon!Dean :( )

Henceforth though...now...if they don't have an angel in their pocket to heal them or they run out of Arnica Cream, they are gonna be kind of screwed. I've always thought they should have a cosmetic surgeon who's life they saved from some monster who repays them by fixing all their scars. That's my new head!canon as of this moment.

[Idahoforspn]

10 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Honestly, the show doesn't either. We've had two time skips (season 6 and season 8 premiered with one year later) but its usually forgotten. So at this point I just try not to worry about it and figure they laid low and healed somewhere.

I so wish they had some kind of show bible. It's apparent they don't and just make up things on the fly and it drives me nuts when they violate their own canon in egregious ways. Like what they did to reapers. Death Takes a Holiday is an episode I have problems rewatching. Not because it's bad, the exact opposite. There was so much going on, what the reapers were, how hard they were to kill, that they were part of the seals and if one dies death slows down in the town until another comes. (Though that might also have been influenced by the spell work). They were a neutral force for the most part, which was nice to see in a world where there are always sides.

It was an excellent episode for Pamela, and what she tells Sam at the end and he still doesn't listen.

Now, any fool with the proper weapon can stick it in a reaper and kill them because they're some kind of angel. Now, there are rogue ones that drive taxis and pop into the other realms like it aint no thing. Too bad Sam didn't know about that at the end of season three as others have said - he could have popped on in to hell and dragged his brother out. Wasn't like an entire garrison of angels had to storm hell to pull Dean out, or anything. All he needed was to put a watch on the exit door and wander around a bit. They probably would have gotten back in time for dinner and pie.

Seems like all hell is now is a quick stop over, grimy halls and a few cells. A condemned office building that had an eccentric interior decorator with a passion for 'lived in beyond repair' styles. Demons used to talk about how they didn't want to be there, that they were tortured still for failure and it twisted the humanity out of their souls. They talked about how hard it was to get out, like Ruby. They talked about how Alastair was an exception because he preferred being in hell compared to earth when most demons wanted to crawl their way out. It made him menacing, of how much he enjoyed the pain of others and perhaps even when it was put on him.

Later on, Bobby just strolls on out after over a century and isn't worse for it. John supposedly didn't break after a century (I don't buy that). But Dean broke like a little girl after thirty years?

Just...screw you show. Hell should be terrifying, it should be destruction of everything that makes a human, well, human. Less is more and I will always be bitter that they showed so much of hell and made it like a revolving door instead of the eternal damnation of the soul that they had going on years ago

Me too!

10 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I like to think that there are amazing healing powers in dental floss stitches and whiskey antiseptic. If only the modern medical world followed these simple steps, scars would be a thing of the past... ;)

LOL

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

There was this weird vibe that Dean should have apologized or felt ashamed that Benny helped him get out of Purgatory. When Garth asked Dean about escaping Purgatory, Sam gloats in an "haha, now tell your shameful tale" way. Which was just mindblowingly stupid because the only person that tale would have been shameful for would be for Sam. Was Dean supposed to apologize for not waiting around for help that would never have come? 

I think Benny was the only person on the show who never let Dean down. Granted, he wasn`t around for that long but I`ll always treasure him for being the loyalist loyal friend who ever loyaled. 

 

I agree. I wish that Benny had stuck around longer.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Of course I'm still trying to figure out how both of them went un-scarred after Shadow, in S1 with no angelic interference. LOL!

And, that's my point.  Before angels they would heal up between episodes.  And any other TV show they heal up between episodes with no angels.  So, maybe an angel healed him, but he would have healed anyway, because it's TV.

[Pondlass1]

Scars are bad enough -- but what about all those concussions?  I think they're pretty much knocked out every episode (especially under Dabb's reign).  Must do a number on the poor ol' brain.  Maybe that's why they're so wild and crazy?

It's jarring for viewers to have an episode like It's a Terrible Life follow on the heels of On the Head of a Pin.  I often wonder why they do this.  Episode placement never seems to get much consideration, especially when an MOTW is slipped in after a particularly heavy storyline and we're all gagging to know what's going to happen.  It stalls the momentum (for me anyway).  

[Pondlass1]

**Are opinions only supposed to be about the show? This isn't - so moderator may delete if necessary.

I imagine this will be a very unpopular opinion and I'll be tarred and feathered.   I adore Jensen.  I think he's talented, professional and an all-round class act. I have enormous respect for the guy.

However....... I found his reaction to Misha's JIB Con mention of the support line that fans have created to be kind of disappointing.  Instead of championing these volunteers, he made the whole thing about himself.  How HE felt.  How HE reacted.   How it affected HIM.  Everyone's talking about 'poor Jensen - so upset' but, to be honest, I was a little let down by his behaviour.  People have talked about 'apple juice', but these guys have more sense than to over indulge.  It wasn't that.  

I dunno - Jensen just disappointed me a little bit right there. 

[Idahoforspn]

35 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

**Are opinions only supposed to be about the show? This isn't - so moderator may delete if necessary.

I imagine this will be a very unpopular opinion and I'll be tarred and feathered.   I adore Jensen.  I think he's talented, professional and an all-round class act. I have enormous respect for the guy.

However....... I found his reaction to Misha's JIB Con mention of the support line that fans have created to be kind of disappointing.  Instead of championing these volunteers, he made the whole thing about himself.  How HE felt.  How HE reacted.   How it affected HIM.  Everyone's talking about 'poor Jensen - so upset' but, to be honest, I was a little let down by his behaviour.  People have talked about 'apple juice', but these guys have more sense than to over indulge.  It wasn't that.  

I dunno - Jensen just disappointed me a little bit right there. 

I thought Jensen's words were very moving and displayed a newly discovered awareness of the worth of YANA.. And I see nothing wrong with saying it gave him a good feeling to be part of helping people. I get asked all the time why I do what I do and I basically say that I enjoy helping people and it makes me feel good. Sorry to hear that's a bad thing to say.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

**Are opinions only supposed to be about the show? This isn't - so moderator may delete if necessary.

I imagine this will be a very unpopular opinion and I'll be tarred and feathered.   I adore Jensen.  I think he's talented, professional and an all-round class act. I have enormous respect for the guy.

However....... I found his reaction to Misha's JIB Con mention of the support line that fans have created to be kind of disappointing.  Instead of championing these volunteers, he made the whole thing about himself.  How HE felt.  How HE reacted.   How it affected HIM.  Everyone's talking about 'poor Jensen - so upset' but, to be honest, I was a little let down by his behaviour.  People have talked about 'apple juice', but these guys have more sense than to over indulge.  It wasn't that.  

I dunno - Jensen just disappointed me a little bit right there. 

I just don't get this. Misha mentioned the support line in direct response to Jensen's reactions to meeting those women. The conversation was, for once, about Jensen, because Misha made it about him. He is unfailingly generous with his praise and attention to pretty much everyone else but himself, in almost every situation, and the one time he does focus on himself and his feelings, it's too much? He talked about his feelings, but made clear how those feelings were brought about by the wonderful thing these women were doing. And that's disappointing? No tar or feathers, but I admit, I'm honestly baffled by that.

 

ETA: I know you pondlass, so I know you don't say these things lightly, which is why I'm so surprised. I could understand it more if it was something he did on the regular, but Jensen so rarely makes things about himself. I was actually kind of proud of him for doing it. I'd also bet money that this experience makes him even more aware of their influence and potential for good. He's that kind of guy.

Edited May 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[CluelessDrifter]

33 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I thought Jensen's words were very moving and displayed a newly discovered awareness of the worth of YANA.. And I see nothing wrong with saying it gave him a good feeling to be part of helping people. I get asked all the time why I do what I do and I basically say that I enjoy helping people and it makes me feel good. Sorry to hear that's a bad thing to say.

I agree.  I think hearing the numbers of people who have gone through the training is one thing, but meeting someone who has done it puts a face to that number and that number into perspective, as does knowing how many people those 11,000 volunteers will help in the future.  If you're down to earth, I think it would be a shock to the system to know that you, in part, helped to inspire that many people to volunteer that much of their time to do something good for others.  It's totally different than getting paid to interact with fans at con, and I'm sure a lot of what we see at cons is a 'parody or act' of who the real Jensen and Jared are with them saying and doing things to make fans cheer or whatever, but knowing that it goes beyond that, having walking, talking proof of it, and having spoken to some of the people it will help in the future (at previous cons), would be a very humbling experience if you're not prepared for it, and I think that's what we saw, but that's IMO.

Edited May 24, 2017 by CluelessDrifter