Iris West

[Trini]

Back to Iris, I really would love to see them do something with her character that doesn't involve flirting with her boss or having a love interest.

 

Well, they did have the sub-plot of Iris' long-lost mother* and brother.

 

*(which was only featured in 3 episodes and essentially went nowhere -- serving mainly to introduce Wally -- ::sigh:: )

Edited April 8, 2016 by Trini

[phoenics]

Well, they did have the sub-plot of Iris' long-lost mother* and brother.

 

*(which was only featured in 3 episodes and essentially went nowhere -- serving mainly to introduce Wally -- ::sigh:: )

And Barry/Joe got more scenes out of that than Iris did.

[Trini]

From the Shared Universe thread: What has Iris done this season?

1 hour ago, quarks said:

I'd have to disagree with this ranking, though. I'd say that with the exception of Donna, pretty much every other woman in the Arrowverse, including some of the one off characters, has had more of a storyline than Iris this season and/or had more of an involvement in the mail plot and/or more character development, and yes, I'm including Laurel. ...

<big snip>

... And then there's Iris.

In the first episode this season, Iris was a reporter who wanted to have a long, personal talk with Barry.

Exactly the same role she played last night. 

Apart from one brief moment in the fall season where Iris was investigating something or other and Barry showed up to rescue her, and a later episode where her boss wanted her to write mean things about the Flash and then wanted to go out with her, Iris has been continually sidelined even in plots that she should be involved in. In marked contrast to Felicity, who actively participated in all but two of Team Arrow's missions this year, Iris is often missing from the Team Flash scenes and only actively participated in two Team Flash missions.

Her plots:

1. The return/death of her mother, which turned out to be almost entirely about Joe and Wally.

2. Realizing that pretty much nobody in the show, including her own father who told her, to her face, that Barry had just had an awful year, remembered that her fiance had just died, so she might as well look at a video from Eddie conveniently brought back by time travelling Barry.

3. In the previous episode, finally heading out into the field to help Barry investigate something - only to be sidelined again in the second half of the episode.

4. Realizing that she and Barry hook up in alternative realities, so why not this one?

And even 4 was, once again, not really about Iris, but rather about ensuring that in the following episode, exploded by special effects but not really dead Barry would have someone to go back to.  

Otherwise, once again, as everyone else in the show got to do something - even kidnapped Caitlin and trapped in a room without a bathroom Wally and Jessie - Iris functioned mostly as a sounding board for Team Flash. She was completely left out of the Jitters plot - the only regular other than Wally to not participate in that. Most of the conversation about whether or not restoring Barry's powers through weird chemicals and Expecto Patronus involved Henry Allen and Harry Wells.

Is she doing better with plots/stories than Donna, "Hi, I'm mostly here to cheer on Oliver and Felicity and comment on this show's insistence on impractical shoes"? Sure. But Donna's only been in a few episodes this season and is a supporting character to supporting characters Felicity and Quentin. Flash is hardly an ensemble show, but Iris should be having at least as many plots/stories as other characters on Flash. And for whatever reason, despite the Earth-2 episodes suggesting that she could play more of a role, that doesn't seem to be happening.  

And I'll add:

5. Reminded us that's she's still friends with Linda Park and got to protect her in that one episode.

6. Got a new boss/love interest to remind us she does have a job and is single.

[Trini]

I'm glad that this back half of the season will have an arc centered around Iris. And from the trailer for the next few episodes, it looks like She will be doing things outside of WestAllen/Team Flash.

They have had mentions of her job and shown some of her investigative skills this season, but it hasn't been enough, and it shouldn't be that hard to incorporate Iris if they have time to add HR and Julian to the team.

[Trini]

^^Look how optimistic I was! The writers still suck, but I'm hoping they pull it together for the finale. If Iris IS the solution to Savitar that would be great -- but it's Barry's show, so best case she's part of the solution.

Come on, writers. So much potential you are wasting with Iris/Candice.

--------------

Almost everyone else has had a dark/evil/mirror version of their character appear on the show; now I want to see Dark!Iris, too.

[johntfs]

Maybe (almost certainly) next season.

[phoenics]

Dark!Iris would be amazing - especially if they let her troll the writer's depiction of Iris (not giving her agency).

[Katsullivan]

I don't care for dark!Iris, not on this show by these writers. Let's not give the popcorn gallery more reasons to hate her. 

[Mellowyellow]

Who hates Iris exactly?

I always thought she was a pretty popular canon compliant character played by a good actress who is likeable in the role.

It's like a whole new world since I started reading the Flash thread and discovered people hate Iris!

Is this a mask issue where they want her to put on a mask and kung fu everyone so they don't like her because she isn't a mask?

[johntfs]

It was really nice that Iris got to be a full-on person instead of an object this week.  She had to struggle with a real dilemma of whether to restore Barry or let him stay Bart.  Bart was clearly happy, also with Barry having amnesia, that effective nerfs Savitar, so that's Iris's own life saved.

[Trini]

I still see people complaining that Iris is still "only a love interest"*, even though this past season she's been shown to be more than that. While the show could always do better by Iris/Candice, I think Season 3 was the strongest for her. She was shown to be the catalyst for Barry's powers; the 'glue' that keeps Team Flash/the Flash Family together (everything crumbled when she died - even the city); and and her faith in Barry (since childhood!) is one of the things that made it possible for him to become The Flash. Unlike other heroes' love interests Iris has been/ is an integral part of Barry's hero journey from the start. There's no Flash without Iris West!

x

 

*(I don't know, it seems that now that she and Barry are officially a couple, it's the thing haters focus on.)

[RedVitC]

I find that a lot of people using the 'Iris is only a love interest' thing are really only doing it to demean her. They don't really care about the character or even actively want her gone and are using this as an excuse. It becomes really obvious that that's the case because when she gets more to do, like say being the leader at Star Labs, they also get angry because of all the Iris West or they find another reason why that's not good either. In short, they're just looking for a reason to complain about her and will latch onto whatever seems convenient to make Iris seem less (and usually it's in trying to make another character seem better). 

I'm sorry if this seems overly critical, I know there are people that genuinely want better things for her, but fandom has made me pretty skeptical of people claiming a character 'deserves better' and statements like that, because there are all kinds of agendas.

I've said it before, but people suddenly being 'concerned' for Iris now that she is with Barry who were ok with stuff like her being sidelined in season 2a make me wonder.

Edited August 8, 2017 by RedVitC

[statsgirl]

On 8/6/2017 at 5:06 PM, Trini said:

I still see people complaining that Iris is still "only a love interest"*, even though this past season she's been shown to be more than that. While the show could always do better by Iris/Candice, I think Season 3 was the strongest for her. She was shown to be the catalyst for Barry's powers; the 'glue' that keeps Team Flash/the Flash Family together (everything crumbled when she died - even the city); and and her faith in Barry (since childhood!) is one of the things that made it possible for him to become The Flash. Unlike other heroes' love interests Iris has been/ is an integral part of Barry's hero journey from the start. There's no Flash without Iris West!

You've made my answer for me.  Barry, Barry, The Flash Family, Barry, Barry's journey, no Flash without Iris West.

But what about Iris?  What does she have apart from Barry?  She presumably has a career that is never a part of the show unless it's in a story about Barry. 

Contrast this to Arrow -- apart from Diggle Lyla is head of ARGUS and that drives a number of storylines, Thea ran Verdant in s2 and in s5  ran the mayor's office while Oliver was a crappy mayor (per Stephen Amell), and Felicity was CEO of Palmer Tech and viewers are calling for Smoak Technologies. Even Laurel worked as a lawyer and had her own storylines.

Iris might as well be a fifties housewife for all the independent life she gets.  Yes, Donna Reed was the centre of the Donna Reed Show. But in real life she was an anti-nuclear activist and anti-Vietnam protester and founded the group Another Mother for Peace.  Lucille Ball was the ditzy Lucy Ricardo but in real life she was a Paramount executive and green lit the original Star Trek series.

What is Iris doing?

[Trini]

Iris has her career and family, which they have featured apart from Barry. It just happens that they made her family his family too. But this is his show and ALL the characters are his supporting characters; who get even less of a life out side of STAR Labs than Iris does.

I'm not sure why you mention the 1950s actresses real life accomplishments in relation to Iris; I think she is doing much better than a housewife. Candice as Iris West is here proving that black actresses can be the leading ladies paired up with major pop culture heroes. (See also Movie!Iris West, Valkyrie, MJ, and Starfire all cast after she was.)

Yes, Iris could always have better stories. But all of those people you mentioned are still Arrow/Oliver Queen's supporting characters, where their stories have to intersect with his. With the exception of Felicity, Lyla/Thea/Laurel have all been either sidelined, absent, or killed off (or all of the above!) for more episodes than they have been featured apart from Oliver. So it may be only a little bit better for Felicity (the only fair comparison) on Arrow.

In any case, I stand by what a wrote before; Iris' role is significant, important, and unique, and shouldn't be diminished even if it's connected to the lead.

[statsgirl]

Everyone on Arrow is a supporting character to Oliver Queen, as you say.  But they also have storylines that are independent of Oliver, for example Felicity being CEO of Palmer Tech and having to deal with firing a lot of employees because of the company being in financial trouble.  Or Felicity's flashback Brother Eye episode. Or the Helix arc which had little to do with Oliver other than to find the information the team needed. Laurel had an addiction arc that Oliver barely figured into.  I haven't seen  all of season 2 and 3 episodes of The Flash; was there an episode in which Iris' job as a reporter was significant to the show other than the time she was investigating Star Labs?  Even in Flashpoint when Barry wasn't the Flash, the only significant role Iris had was to support Wally.

I take your point that in the US it's significant to have an African-American leading lady. It's not such a big deal in my country.

But I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about how much Iris matters to the show apart from her relationship with Barry.

[Trini]

19 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I haven't seen  all of season 2 and 3 episodes of The Flash; was there an episode in which Iris' job as a reporter was significant to the show other than the time she was investigating Star Labs?

Yes. Several. (3.09, 3.11, 3.03, 2.05, 2.12 at least.) And there needs to be more.

 

19 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Even in Flashpoint when Barry wasn't the Flash, the only significant role Iris had was to support Wally.

She and Wally were a team working together to fight crime. And coordinated with Cisco to get the tech they needed, etc. She wasn't his sidekick.

---

The showrunners do need to show it in more ways, but they know Iris is important. They had a whole episode about what happens if she's gone. Team Arrow might lose some tech expertise without Felicity (or maybe not with Curtis?), but they'd go on.

[Trini]

I'd rather ALSO see her investigative/reporting/PR skills being used more in the show (it's not that hard, COME ON), but I'm looking forward to seeing Iris in a leadership role this season. And hopefully they expand on her other relationships. They did do a little bit better with having some Iris/Joe scenes last year.

[Trini]

Related to Iris needing her own stories, I think Iris needs her 'side characters' (not exactly sure what to call this). Characters that are mainly and directly connected to her (outside of the regular cast).

Nearly every other castmember has one this season: Barry is the lead, so everyone is connected to him; but right now he has Dibny. Joe has Cecile. Cisco has Cynthia. Caitlin has Amunet - but she may end up being a villain for the Team.

Ideally, the show could have characters connected to Iris through CC Picture News. If not Linda, then maybe her editor, or other reporters at the paper. Or maybe informants or sources she has in the city.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Trini

[paulvdb]

Linda would be ideal for two reasons. First, she was already established as a friend of Iris and second, I've always liked Malese Jow. They should have brought her back for this week's episode instead of bringing Felicity over from Arrow. I like Felicity, but she and Iris have never been shown as friends. So basically Iris didn't have any real friends at her bachelorette party. Bringing Linda back as a regular or regularly recurring character would give Iris a friend to hang out with and it would make the cast a bit less male heavy.

[tofutan]

I'm very excited to see Iris as part of the team proper and I really wonder how that will affect the overall fandom's perception of her, compared to when she was more the damsel or the princess on the outside. I was quite sad to see some people immediately switching to calling her too pushy, because overall I really hope that this is the right call (even though yes, just like everybody else I'd have prefered it if they had found a way to make the reporting an organic part of the villain of the week stories). 

[johntfs]

8 hours ago, paulvdb said:

Linda would be ideal for two reasons. First, she was already established as a friend of Iris and second, I've always liked Malese Jow.

Malese Jow is busy with Shannara and filming the movie, Escape Plan 3: Devil's Station with Sylvester Stallone.  Also, Linda Park, like Felicity, lives in another city and presumably has a pretty busy life there, so she and Iris have kind of lost touch.

[Trini]

Initially I wasn't a fan (not into poufy or strapless), but the wedding dress has grown on me. Candice looks so fabulous in it!

I'm glad they spent some money for this.

[bettername2come]

I just need to gush a little about Iris in the crossover.  Just letting her finally do stuff in the crossover was a huge improvement, but I loved watching her actually fight Nazis. I mean, just dropping from the ceiling and hitting Nazis in the face. I did not know that was something I needed in my life. And she got to have a normal female friendship and talk about her feelings and be protective of Supergirl and Felicity. Plus, she looked absolutely gorgeous in a dress that theoretically shouldn't have work and married the man she loved. Really, the only thing that could've made me happier is if they remembered she's a reporter.

[Trini]

I agree; I'm glad Iris got to participate in the other shows in the crossover. Liked the Iris/Felicity scenes, and the moments she had with Barry.

My main complaint is that I think there should have been even MORE Iris. She was poorly used in the Arrow portion, and I wanted her to talk with/interact with more of the other characters.

[johntfs]

10 minutes ago, doram said:

Iris should have got a similar moment as a Black woman, almost definitely against the "white, blonde, Aryan perfection" of Overgirl. 

But, but that would have meant cutting something else out of the crossover.  And we totally needed all those icky moments of Nazi Oliver declaring his twu Nazi wuv for Nazi Overgirl. 

[johntfs]

2 minutes ago, doram said:

It would have made more sense if Overgirl was mocking Iris in that scene and Iris countered by saying - in addition to the "good conquers evil" speech - that she (Iris) wasn't the one with the defective heart (figuratively and literally) and that she would never have to stay away at night wondering if Dark Oliver if she lost her super-powers. 

The biggest thing I see is that there wouldn't be any connection between Iris and Overgirl outside of racial opposition.  The reason the first two work is the emotional resonance.  Felicity isn't just facing a Nazi who despises her for being Jewish, she's standing up to a Nazi wearing the face of the man she loves.  Sara isn't confronting someone who hates bisexual, she's confronting someone with her father's face who celebrates the idea that he killed the other her for being who she was.  Iris and Kara barely know each other.  Kara is basically "Barry's friend from another dimension."  Overgirl has no connection to Iris either and would likely regard her as an inferior human bug to squash.  If Iris was going to face off with a Nazi, it would have needed to be Nazi Barry Allen, but since they already did "Evil Barry" in the 3rd season, that was probably considered to be too repetitious.

[johntfs]

4 minutes ago, doram said:

Iris and Kara are supposed to be close friends off-screenville. Much like Iris's off-screenville bff-ness with Felicity. It's part of the motivation (besides being a "Good Person") that Iris and Felicity were risking their lives to save her.

They are?  I've never seen any evidence of that.  I can believe that Barry told Iris about Kara, but I think the first time the two of them met was in "Duet" late in the third season.  For my part I never saw Iris needing much motivation to save Kara beyond being a good person who wants to save another good person from the fucking Nazis who broke up her wedding.

9 minutes ago, doram said:

But that notwithstanding, while it would have been more impactful if the show actually built up Kara and Iris's friendship --- a confrontation between Overgirl and Iris won't have been less impactful than the --- non-confrontation between any Black person or POC on the show versus Nazis. They literally had Overgirl play the White-Aryan card on .... another White Aryan person. Her literal doppelganger. Any Black person would have been better than the complete erasure of a POC-perspective of Nazis.

That I will agree with and also agree that James Olsen should have been the viewpoint character for that confrontation.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, doram said:

I haven't seen any evidence either of Felicity being Iris BFF, enough to merit an invitation to her hen party and a place in her bridal train but there we have it. 

It's easy for me to believe that Iris was in pretty close contact with Felicity as Team Flash's leader since they're in the same universe, planet and country.

As for the rest, if everyone of the kind of heritage that Nazis hate got to give them the "go fuck off!" speech, that would likely have been most of the stuff in the crossover.  On the other hand, Iris is the one who called in the rest of Team Time Bandits, which is what really saved Kara (though Felicity's delaying tactics were needed as well) and put paid to the Nazi Metallo as well.  The White folks can speechify, but Iris is the one who gets shit done.

Cliff and his wife best watch their asses because Iris is coming for them.  Nobody puts her Baby Barry in a corner (jail cell).

Edited December 16, 2017 by johntfs

[johntfs]

9 minutes ago, doram said:

There's no reason why Iris couldn't speechify and still get stuff done.

There kind of is.  If Iris stops to school Overgirl, Overgirl vaporizes her with her heat vision.  Or has her dragged off to join the others in their cells.  And shit doesn't get done.

Overgirl was okay bantering with Kara because she needed to keep Kara alive to get her heart.  Earth-X Oliver let Felicity have her "last words" because he appreciated a bit of drama.  As I recall after Kara was freed, Iris was helping free the various prisoners while Ray and Felicity got Kara to safety and sunlight.  I suppose they could have switched out Iris and Felicity, with Iris standing between Oliver-X and Kara, but I think it works better for it to be Felicity in that situation.  Hitler didn't send 6 million people of African heritage to death camps (though I'm sure he sent any he could find what with Jesse Owens and Joe Lewis making his "master race" look less than masterful).  Beyond that, there just really wasn't a point within that situation for Iris to have a big speech moment without getting murdered out of hand.

[johntfs]

40 minutes ago, doram said:

Er... by that logic, Fuhrer Oliver should have shot Felicity with an arrow before she finished one word of her great speech. Plot reasons set up a situation where she could make her speech and still be rescued. Plot reasons could have done the same for Iris. Let's not act like if these stories aren't literally spun out of people's imaginations. 

Fine.  Where would you put an Iris speech?  Both of the speeches took place within the Flash episode.  So, maintaining the same overall situation while you can switch out one of the other speeches, where do you put some kind of Iris speech that doesn't prevent her from doing the shit she needs to do and/or get her killed/captured?  The Kara/Overgirl speech is explained since Overgirl needed Kara alive.  Oliver-X considered himself "gracious" enough to let the blonde girl have her last words because he had plenty of time (though he didn't).  So, where does Iris get her moment?   

[johntfs]

The people who gave the big speeches ultimately had to be saved by other people - specifically white men.  I like the idea that Iris was too busy doing the work of fighting the Nazis to give a big speech and then get saved by a white man.

[SevenStars]

15 minutes ago, johntfs said:

The people who gave the big speeches ultimately had to be saved by other people - specifically white men.  I like the idea that Iris was too busy doing the work of fighting the Nazis to give a big speech and then get saved by a white man.

It didn't need to happen this way. Iris could have given a big speech and not be  save by a white man. It is possible. The writers just didn't want to put that spotlight on Iris.

[johntfs]

On 12/16/2017 at 9:49 AM, SevenStars said:

It didn't need to happen this way. Iris could have given a big speech and not be  save by a white man. It is possible.

Sure, it's possible.  Lots of things are possible.  On the whole, though, I prefer the idea that Iris was busy doing stuff to secure the victory over the Nazis than the idea that she'd give a speech declaring the empowered nature of Women of Color that gets undercut by her getting rescued by a White Male.

[Trini]

On 12/15/2017 at 8:40 PM, doram said:

He was her fiancé. According to the rules of this show, a time remnant is the same person, removed in time. Eobard Thawne. Not E2!HR. Barry duplicated himself into Savitar as a means to - paradoxically - destroy Savitar.

Savitar literally tells Iris that he still remembers proposing to her. He was Barry, in every sense of the word. The show decided to hand-wave that because that would mean Iris stepping out of her Stepford mould. 

Yeah, you'd think Iris would have more of a reaction to that, right? 

They started out the same, but clearly after years of being without Iris, giving into hatred, and spending eons(?) in speed force hell changed him.

They did kind of address Iris' having a reaction to killing a version Barry in the Season 3 finale, but then they never got never got back to it. ::siiiiiighhhh:: However, I assume that her dealing with losing her Barry (possibly forever) in the speed force trumped any tears for a murderous clone.

[BaggythePanther]

8 hours ago, doram said:

Well, I don't feel generous towards the writers to give them that pass. They created a story where a version of Barry wanted to murder Iris. That's not just deeply disturbing on a real-life perspective, it's also very much against the way these stories tend to go. Imagine all the times Elena Gilbert's boyfriends "turned off" their humanities and became monsters - they attacked, even killed her family and friends - but they never hurt her. Not even when they were attacking her family and friends to hurt her. Imagine how Angelus was - to quote Willow - still as obsessed with Buffy as Angel was - and how his endgame never involved killing her, just hurting her friends. 

That's because writers understand that you don't go there if you still want to revisit the relationship as an OTP endgame. 

Well the writers couldn’t have done the story this way because Iris doesn’t have her own friends and that is a problem in and of itself. 

 

When the sexual harassment allegations about Andrew Kreisberg came out someone noted that he was known to punish actresses with bad storylines and I thought of Iris’ role in the Savitar storyline. Evidently none of the producers told her that Iris would survive the season (Grant had to let her know she wouldn’t be killed off) and almost every episode last season began with the scene of Iris being impaled. Why did they need to show that scene so. many. times? The worst part is that Iris never got a voice. We don’t know how she felt about Savitar, about killing him or the fact that HR sacrificed himself for her. 

[Trini]

Oh, Grant...

[Kate45]

On 12/19/2017 at 3:55 PM, BaggythePanther said:

When the sexual harassment allegations about Andrew Kreisberg came out someone noted that he was known to punish actresses with bad storylines and I thought of Iris’ role in the Savitar storyline. Evidently none of the producers told her that Iris would survive the season (Grant had to let her know she wouldn’t be killed off) and almost every episode last season began with the scene of Iris being impaled. Why did they need to show that scene so. many. times? The worst part is that Iris never got a voice. We don’t know how she felt about Savitar, about killing him or the fact that HR sacrificed himself for her. 

I have to say that the producers NOT telling her anything, somewhat told her that she still had a job. I have long heard that producers tell actors when they are planning to kill off their characters. In fact, I remember Candice mentioning when the producers told Rick Cosnett that he would be let go and how upsetting it was for her. They still should have told her, because it was in bad taste not to tell her. 

The number of times that Iris was shown to be impaled? Ridiculous, and I wonder what role Kreisburg played in it. Same thing with her lowered screen time in 2A. It was Greg Berlanti who said that Iris needed her screen time upped in season 3.

Totally agree about the Savitar storyline. They handled it well at first, because she really did process her feelings about her impending doom in episodes 10, 11, and 12. After that it became a story about Barry's man pain.

I also found it strange that everyone one else who was severely impacted by Flash Point was able to "air their grievance" with Barry, except for Iris. Even before the Savitar reveal, we knew that Barry caused this to happen with Flash Point but Iris never tried to hold him accountable. I'm sure that she knew he felt guilty about it and didn't feel the need to pile on, but it was still a strange storytelling choice. 

[johntfs]

14 hours ago, Kate45 said:

I also found it strange that everyone one else who was severely impacted by Flash Point was able to "air their grievance" with Barry, except for Iris. Even before the Savitar reveal, we knew that Barry caused this to happen with Flash Point but Iris never tried to hold him accountable. I'm sure that she knew he felt guilty about it and didn't feel the need to pile on, but it was still a strange storytelling choice. 

Part of it was that Barry was able to help Iris undo and mitigate the effects that Flashpoint had on her (her damaged relationship with Joe).  There wasn't much he could do about Caitlin getting power (and an evil alter ego) or Cisco's dead brother short of going back in time yet again and causing more damage trying to fix the previous damage.

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Part of it was that Barry was able to help Iris undo and mitigate the effects that Flashpoint had on her (her damaged relationship with Joe).  There wasn't much he could do about Caitlin getting power (and an evil alter ego) or Cisco's dead brother short of going back in time yet again and causing more damage trying to fix the previous damage.

Sorry, I don't think I was clear in my post. 

The primary things that changed for people that Barry knew based solely on Flashpoint:

Cisco: brother died because of a drunk driver, and Cisco told Barry exactly how he felt about Barry's actions

Caitlin: gained powers from the particle accelerator, unlike in the other timeline, and as KF told Barry exactly how she felt about Barry's actions

Wally: gained powers because of Alchemy, Wally was happy with this outcome 

Joe: was held accountable for lying to Iris about her mother being dead. However, this was short-lived and Barry helped to bring an end to their disagreement. IMO Joe got very lucky with Iris never being upset about his actions. 

Iris: her life was put in danger for over six months, and would have died if HR had not stepped in to save her. Iris never had a conversation with Barry about his actions causing her life to be in danger, or about her feelings about one of his time-remnants wanting to murder her. Now, I should note that Iris knew Barry felt a high level of guilt about his actions, and she would have been a hypocrite for having an issue for what happened to her versus telling him that he had no control over happened to Cisco/Caitlin in 3x07. But, in anyway you cut it, she was the only one who didn't "air her grievance" to Barry about his actions.   

I'll also mention that it is in-character for Iris to just forgive Barry and not hold him accountable for his actions, because she did the same thing for Joe and Barry about their previous lies and gas lightings in season 1 and 2. 

[johntfs]

31 minutes ago, doram said:

fter that, Iris's never allowed to be angry at anyone ever again... She comforts Joe over being lied about her mom. She asks her would-be murderer to be her bridesmaid and was willing to enter some weird threesome relationship with Savitar and Barry.

Was anybody else hoping/expect Barry to channel Gunnery Sergeant Hartman from Full Metal Jacket?
 

Quote

 

This is my Iris. There are many like her, but this one is mine.

My Iris is my best friend.  She is my life.  I must master her as I must master my life.

Before God, I swear this creed. My Iris and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.

So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.

 

[Katsullivan]

On 3/10/2018 at 4:30 PM, Kate45 said:

Iris: her life was put in danger for over six months, and would have died if HR had not stepped in to save her. Iris never had a conversation with Barry about his actions causing her life to be in danger, or about her feelings about one of his time-remnants wanting to murder her. Now, I should note that Iris knew Barry felt a high level of guilt about his actions, and she would have been a hypocrite for having an issue for what happened to her versus telling him that he had no control over happened to Cisco/Caitlin in 3x07. But, in anyway you cut it, she was the only one who didn't "air her grievance" to Barry about his actions. 

It's telling how much Iris's non-reactions has been normalized that when someone thinks of what changed for Iris with Flashpoint, they jump to "oh, she just had a small tiff with her dad", and not "she dies before her next birthday".

Because, let's face it, Iris's death wasn't about her. It was about Barry.

On 3/10/2018 at 7:09 PM, doram said:

After that, Iris's never allowed to be angry at anyone ever again... She comforts Joe over being lied about her mom. She asks her would-be murderer to be her bridesmaid and was willing to enter some weird threesome relationship with Savitar and Barry.

I actually won't have minded that threesome relationship with Savitar and Barry. Just kidding. But in seriousness, I can't get over the fact that someone in the writers's room thought that an appropriate storyline for their kids-friendly (and that's why we can't show Westallen kissing passionately - because it's for kids!!!) show should have an arc where the Hero wanted to murder the love of his life. And that Savitar admitted that he was still in love with Iris/wanted Iris for himself? That was hella disturbing. I guess that rather than have parents explain to their children that "Iris and Barry are kissing because that's what grown-ups do when they love each other very much",  it's far easier to have this conversation: "sometimes when a man loves a woman very much, he kills her, and if he fails and he's sorry, she's going to forgive him because that's what you do when you love someone." 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

 it's far easier to have this conversation: "sometimes when a man loves a woman very much, he kills her, and if he fails and he's sorry, she's going to forgive him because that's what you do when you love someone." 

Still, they can add to that, luckily, sometimes she realizes how crazy that it is and shoots him in the fucking head to put him out of everyone's misery.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

... But in seriousness, I can't get over the fact that someone in the writers's room thought that an appropriate storyline for their kids-friendly (and that's why we can't show Westallen kissing passionately - because it's for kids!!!) show should have an arc where the Hero wanted to murder the love of his life. And that Savitar admitted that he was still in love with Iris/wanted Iris for himself? That was hella disturbing. ...

This is probably an 'agree to disagree' situation, but I think it was clear that Savitar/Barry was different person at that point and no longer the hero.

(I don't know if it would have made the storyline that much better, but this is another example of the show failing to explore and explain a concept - they never fully showed how 'our Barry' could ever become Savitar. Because it is terrible, but they glossed over it.)

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

This is probably an 'agree to disagree' situation, but I think it was clear that Savitar/Barry was different person at that point and no longer the hero.

(I don't know if it would have made the storyline that much better, but this is another example of the show failing to explore and explain a concept - they never fully showed how 'our Barry' could ever become Savitar. Because it is terrible, but they glossed over it.)

 

Savitar wasn't the hero but he was wearing the face of the hero, with all the memories that the hero have, including those of the Iris, seems to still be in love with Iris and still tried/wanted to kill her in the name of hurting the hero. 

The more I thing about this story, the more unbelievable it is that Iris didn't get to express any personal feelings about it, instead she had to comfort Barry and make sure her family and city still had Barry/Flash, after she is kill by a man who claims to love her and wearing the face of her husband-to-be. 

 This also makes me so much more happy and grateful that Iris was the one to kill him. Which also should have been dealt but...we clearly can't have more than Iris killing her killer.

[Kate45]

3 hours ago, SevenStars said:

Savitar wasn't the hero but he was wearing the face of the hero, with all the memories that the hero have, including those of the Iris, seems to still be in love with Iris and still tried/wanted to kill her in the name of hurting the hero. 

Savitar loved Iris...but not more than he loved himself. IMO, I think Barry may love Iris more than he loves himself. He was willing to kill himself to make sure that she didn't die. 

3 hours ago, SevenStars said:

The more I thing about this story, the more unbelievable it is that Iris didn't get to express any personal feelings about it, instead she had to comfort Barry and make sure her family and city still had Barry/Flash, after she is kill by a man who claims to love her and wearing the face of her husband-to-be. 

I think this was the biggest misstep of the story. This story started really strong with Iris being allowed to have wavering feelings about her impending death. However, it ended after 3x12. At that point she just trusted that Barry would save her, and it became about Barry's man pain. Also, she had her own mini-flash point in 3x21, but once again she choose to be selfless. I think she made the right choice, but too often her POV was lost in order for her to be selfless. Personally, I think they made the story less about her feelings and more about her selflessness as a way of protecting her from the Iris haters. It just didn't work, because Iris' haters are often times not logical in their hate for her. When presented with counter evidence for their hate, they will deny it at every turn.

 

4 hours ago, SevenStars said:

 This also makes me so much more happy and grateful that Iris was the one to kill him. Which also should have been dealt but...we clearly can't have more than Iris killing her killer.

I love this part of the story! I'm glad that she was the one to finish it. But, why would they deal with it? She killed Savior in defense of Barry. Joe has killed two people in defense of Barry, Caitlin/KF was an accomplice in murder, and Barry killed two metas at the start of season 2. Harry killed Turtle in cold blood. No one else has ever processed these actions, so I don't know why Iris would be the only to do so. I do think it's a weird story telling choice, but it is at least consistent.    

[Kate45]

12 minutes ago, doram said:

I think @SevenStars meant that it's one thing for Iris to shoot some random Supervillain, it's another thing to have her shoot her time-displaced fiance who was hell-bent on killing her because of manpain in order to save her present-time manpain-riddled fiance. The show even has Westallen talk about this (for about 0.5 seconds) and conclude that Iris will have to deal with it, on her own time, off-screen-ville. 

This is a great point. Just to be clear, I think she should have processed it, but I'm not surprised that she didn't. Mostly because no one ever processes anything on this show. Caitlin is running around with split personality, and no one has even suggested that she seek counseling to figure out why this split occurred! Yikes, this show gets psychological issues so wrong. I guess my point is that each of these characters has gone through various levels of trauma, and they just gloss over it. It upsets me, but it is one very consistent action on this show. 

In fact, I am still shocked that they had Iris acknowledge that she was upset that Barry left her. She was, for once, allowed to have feelings. Of course, "fans" have been breathing down her throat and calling for her murder ever since.

[Starry]

The Savitar story became very confusing around the end but I believe he didn’t want to kill Iris just to punish Barry, he needed her to die so he could live. It’s still a messed up situation but it shows how broken Barry was after Iris’ death. He was such in a dark place that his time remnant became her murderer. I agree that at that point Savitar wasn’t Barry anymore and that this Barry would rather kill himself than have Iris dead to preserve his existence. I wish they wrote some flashbacks of Savitar’s origin story. It would have helped flesh out his character. They had done flashbacks for all their other major villains so why not for Savitar?

I think s3 had some bright spots but when Iris’ story became about waiting around to die and take care of everyone else’s feelings it was painful to watch. I appreciate that she’s selfless but they turned her into a martyr. I still see red when I think about Iris telling Barry that he couldn’t kill Grodd just to save her. It was so dehumanizing that even the life of a murderous animal held more value than Iris’.

Speaking of Iris’ would-be murderers, I don’t know if I have to laugh or cry at the fact that even Savitar (who actually got what he deserved) felt more shame than Killer Frost, the “hero” that has immediately been accepted into the team and couldn’t even open her mouth to utter the words “Sorry that I tried to kill you!”.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Starry

[Katsullivan]

On 13/03/2018 at 8:18 AM, Starry said:

The Savitar story became very confusing around the end but I believe he didn’t want to kill Iris just to punish Barry, he needed her to die so he could live. It’s still a messed up situation but it shows how broken Barry was after Iris’ death. He was such in a dark place that his time remnant became her murderer.

It was all part of the same thing, as far as I can tell. They also retconned when Barry made the time remnant from before she dies to after she dies, which doesn't even make any kind of thematic sense because it meant that Barry needed her to die first to do "whatever it takes" to stop Savitar, and he deliberately created a time remnant knowing that it would kill Iris. 

On 12/03/2018 at 4:59 PM, Trini said:

This is probably an 'agree to disagree' situation, but I think it was clear that Savitar/Barry was different person at that point and no longer the hero.

On 13/03/2018 at 8:18 AM, Starry said:

I agree that at that point Savitar wasn’t Barry anymore and that this Barry would rather kill himself than have Iris dead to preserve his existence.

That fans are even arguing this, and trying to come to terms with the storyline is just evidence of how offensive it is.

On 12/03/2018 at 4:46 PM, doram said:

Misogynoir, plain and simple.

Obviously. It's a storyline that would never be touched if Iris was white. 

 

Moving forward, I was surprisingly pleased with how well Iris was written last night. When she had the first hallway talk with Ralph and he ranted about her not knowing what it felt like to be in danger, I expected that Savitar would not be brought up, and I wasn't not disappointed. What did shock me was when it came up in the end! On top of that, her status as a journalist was addressed, tied into the main plot, and there was even a resolution to that in the end. I know it sounds ridiculous, because it was obviously an Iris-centric episode --- but I was shocked at how Iris- centric the episode turned out to be. Had Iris and Ralph ever had one-on-one conversations? Because I don't remember it. Nor do I remember Iris and Joe going on a mission together on this show. Or Caitlin being presented as such an Iris-fan and the two women interacting so friendly towards each other, instead of just stepping around each other. Between this and the last episode, Iris is being written exceptionally well. 

Does anyone have a way of knowing the last episode Andrew Kreisberg had creative control of? I'm testing a theory.

[GHScorpiosRule]

15 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Does anyone have a way of knowing the last episode Andrew Kreisberg had creative control of? I'm testing a theory.

This is the second episode to air AFTER his ousting and he had NO control over it. Which goes to prove HE was the problem.

[Katsullivan]

26 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

This is the second episode to air AFTER his ousting and he had NO control over it. Which goes to prove HE was the problem.

Bingo.