Shax Attack: Original vs Reboot Discussion

[Lady Calypso]

So, this is your comparisons thread between the original series and the upcoming reboot. Feel free to nitpick here, and discuss the similarities and differences between both. 

[Primal Slayer]

Put this together last week

The Book of Shadows
Charmed Then:

Phoebe discovers the Book of Shadows in the attic and reads a spell that activates her and her sisters powers. Phoebe studies the book and informs her sisters that they are witches known as The Charmed Ones.

Charmed Now:

It appears that the death of the Vera sisters mother activates their powers automatically and their Whitelighter brings them the Book of Shadows, informing them that they are witches known as The Charmed Ones.

The Powers of Charmed
The Eldest Sister
Charmed Then:

Prue’s powers first activate when she is annoyed. She uses them for the first time at work inadvertently on her boss, something that she doesn’t notice. Her first time noticing her powers is sitting at the bar of a restaurant with Phoebe and getting annoyed that Phoebe insists that she is a witch.

Charmed Now:

It appears that Macy’s first encounter and notice of her powers may come when she is sitting at bar of a restaurant with a co-worker. No longer does her “sister” upset her which activates her powers….instead a conversation with her co-worker over connecting with her newfound sisters activates her power.

The Middle Sister
Charmed Then:

Piper discovers her powers at Quake while trying out new dishes. Her boss attempting to taste an unfinished dish causes her to panic and accidentally freeze him with her hands.

Charmed Now:

Mel is sitting in a restaurant with her (girl)friend discussing the craziness of discovering she has a long lost sister. She freezes the room out of nowhere with her mind.

The Youngest Sister
Charmed Then:

Phoebe is riding down the street and has her very first premonition.

Charmed Now:

Maggie is at her sorority house and when coming into contact with various sorority sisters causes her to hear their thoughts.

Mommy dearest
Charmed Then:

The Halliwell sisters lose their mother while they are still children with Phoebe still a baby.

Charmed Now:

Charmed Now:The Vera sisters lose their mother as adults, having lived a very happy life with Macy having been disconnected from her mother as a child for unknown reasons.

The Manor
Charmed Then:

Charmed Now:

The Charmed Ones
Charmed Then vs Now

It appears that the new sisters will do their major vanquish in some lab? Compared to the original sisters doing their first vanquish together in the attic of their manor, where it all started.

 
It appears that both versions will have the sisters happily walking up to their Manors finally bonded once again. Both started out broken. Prue/Phoebe having their differences while Maggie/Mel have their differences with Macy.

Stray Observations:

-In the 1998 series, the sisters do not start off with their Whitelighter. It takes 14 episodes before they even find out what a Whitelighter is and Leo doesn't start working with the sisters full time until Season 2. In the 2018 series it appears that the sisters gain their Whitelighter right off the bat. He gives them the 411 on what they are, who they are, and most likely who to save on a week2week basis.

-In the 1998 series, it is Prue, the eldest sister who is involved with a cop. In the 2018 series, it is Mel, the middle sister who is involved with a cop. Both characters though are the ones who deal with their anger.

-In the 1998 series all the sisters are out of college with Phoebe deciding to return to college in the shows second season. In the 2018 series Maggie is currently in college and seemingly living on campus, having gone straight after graduating high school.

-The biggest difference between the two series is the missing of Grams. In the 1998 series she was very fundamental in the sisters upbringing and a big influence in the overall familys heritage. In the 2018 series it appears that the new sisters Grandmother will be of less importance due to their mother raising them to adulthood.
 

[Guest]

I'll watch just to pick up the references if nothing else. 

 

When "Piper" (come on we're only going to know them by their original counterparts unless the show is actually good Lol) freezes the cafe, one of the shots shows a barista pouring milk from a small container, which was what Prue moved with her mind in the original? 

Probably a stretch but I'm taking that as a nod to their pilot. Lol. 

[Guest]

One thing letting the new show down majorly is the absence of one of the show's biggest cast members... the Manor. :(

That was like a character in itself. 

[Guest]

I'm calling it now.... the eldest was given up as a baby because her father is a demon. Season 1 finale reveal. ;)

[andipandi]

why not make a new show about witches? Sigh.

[mammaM]

On 5/21/2018 at 9:51 PM, Lost said:

I'm calling it now.... the eldest was given up as a baby because her father is a demon. Season 1 finale reveal. ;)

See I was guessing that she'd be given up because Mom fooled around with her Whitelighter, in homage to Paige.

[GaT]

On 5/21/2018 at 6:51 PM, Lost said:

I'm calling it now.... the eldest was given up as a baby because her father is a demon. Season 1 finale reveal. ;)

 

2 hours ago, mammaM said:

See I was guessing that she'd be given up because Mom fooled around with her Whitelighter, in homage to Paige.

Well, just by looking at her, I'm guessing mom screwed around with a basketball player, maybe Tristan Thompson.

[Daisy]

On 5/24/2018 at 5:03 PM, andipandi said:

why not make a new show about witches? Sigh.

right? 

this show did not need to be rebooted. 

[Cranberry]

I touched on this in the media thread, but it's really hard to sell anything now that's not a reboot or part of a proven franchise. That's why we're watching Riverdale instead of "new Dawson's Creek meets Twin Peaks-style teen drama," Teen Wolf instead of "sexy teen werewolf drama," and a Charmed "reboot" (and Chilling Adventures of Sabrina) instead of some new show about witches. I'm just treating this like a new show and basically forgetting the Charmed angle. I'll see how it holds up on its own.

[tennisgurl]

This may or may not be an unpopular opinion, but I think Charmed is actually a decent show for a reboot. Normally I roll my eyes at everything and their mothers old favorite show getting a reboot, even if it has basically nothing to do with the original beyond the name, but when something is remade, I want it to be something that was either just alright with a good premise, or something that was dated, and now be modernized. Charmed, as much as I loved it growing up, had some big flaws and is pretty dated looking back on it. Its effects, many of its stories, and its approach to gender politics are very...late 90s early 00s. It has a good premise, and the mythology they build up works, but it ended up with a ton of plot holes, the magic stuff was inconsistent as hell, and some of the characterization really suffered (I swear, if I had to Phoebe complain about missing dates to fight evil one more time...) as the show went on. While the preview didnt exactly wow me, and, yeah, this could be any random show about witch sisters without it being Charmed, this isnt the worst show to try again with more modern affects and writing styles. 

Edited May 26, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Primal Slayer]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

This may or may not be an unpopular opinion, but I think Charmed is actually a decent show for a reboot. Normally I roll my eyes at everything their mothers old favorite show getting a reboot, even if it has basically nothing to do with the original beyond the name, but when something is remade, I want it to be something that was either just alright with a good premise, or something that was dated, and now be modernized. Charmed, as much as I loved it growing up, had some big flaws and is pretty dated looking back on it. Its effects, many of its stories, and its approach to gender politics are very...late 90s early 00s. It has a good premise, and the mythology they build up works, but it ended up with a ton of plot holes, the magic stuff was inconsistent as hell, and some of the characterization really suffered (I swear, if I had to Phoebe complain about missing dates to fight evil one more time...) as the show went on. While the preview didnt exactly wow me, and, yeah, this could be any random show about witch sisters without it being Charmed, this isnt the worst show to try again with more modern affects and writing styles. 

I am not even necessarily against a reboot, but I think had this been 20 years or so after the show ended or if things havent been so messy between HMC/people from the reboot it wouldn't be looked at as harshly. 

[Camera One]

I don't find the premise of "Charmed" unique enough to justify a "reboot".  Three sisters inherit witch powers.  That's pretty much it.  I've never rewatched "Charmed" until yesterday, and I've rewatched the first four episodes of Season 1 so far.  I don't find it dated enough to warrant a remake.  Yes, the special effects were cheesy but the special effects were not as important as the characters.  If anything, rewatching reminded me how good Season 1 was.

Having said that, I thought the promo for the new show was decent.  I think I might have been more inclined to watch it if it didn't seem like a cheap attempt to capitalize and a dearth of creativity.  It would actually be more interesting if they created different circumstances that we haven't already seen for years ad nauseum.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Camera One

[DaneTheGr8]

One thing I am hoping , as a fan of the original, is that they pay homage to the original Charmed with a similar Opening Credits. I know Opening Credits are rare in this day of TV but would be a nice throw back.

 

But I am almost certain they will be using a simple title card only. 

[Primal Slayer]

The theme song is probably "expensive " in the sense that the studio felt studio felt it was worthless to waste money to renew the license for a theme song. Which sucks since Charmed extremely well in reruns/streaming.

[SilverShadow]

To me ultimately the reboot feels incredibly manufactured and market-tested and plasticy. The fact that their press materials call one of their characters a social justice warrior without a hint of irony is a huge red flag. Granted, the original was inspired by the Craft, greenlit to ride the Buffy wave, and tweaked by the network and producers to show more skin and play bands of the week, but at the core there was just a "there" there that worked when the writing didn't go out its way to ruin it. I'm also someone who's enjoyment of a property is hugely based on its characters. I'm invested in the Halliwells and their world. I give no fucks about the "new class." 

The fact that they didn't approach the original actresses in any way, either to be a part of press, or to have them in cameos/supporting roles based on willingness doesn't sit well with me. It feels like a no-brainer and it would have made them look classy. Also a lot of the statements and interviews from the new cast and crew regarding the OG read condescending at best and "God, we know you like that stupid old shit, but we're gonna do it better, waaaaaatch uuuuuus" at worst. 

[Esmeralda]

On 5/30/2018 at 3:33 AM, nosleepforme said:

Yeah, isn't the theme song even so expensive that they dropped it from the DVD/Streaming?

 

I think part of people reacting so strongly to the idea of this reboot is also that we're now starting to get shows redone that haven't been off the air for so long and since revivals with the original stars have become a real possibility in recent years with Gilmore Girls, Will & Grace, Roseanne and soon Murphy Brown.

 

But reboots have been a long staple of television, from Charlie's Angels to Hawaii 5-0 to MacGyver; so it's not exactly surprising for them to reboot something that was successful in the past.

The difference is all of those shows were from the 70's and 80's.  If it was the 2030s, when there's been a generation between the ones who originally watched it and the ones who are watching it now, that would be one thing.  But Charmed's PREMIERE is 20 years old this year and it was on the air for 8 years!  It's much too soon for a reboot, just like them talking about rebooting Buffy.  Hollywood is just trying to use shows with female leads to take advantage of the MeToo movement.   This should be an Afternoon Special, not a weekly show.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Esmeralda

[Esmeralda]

On 5/21/2018 at 8:51 PM, Lost said:

I'm calling it now.... the eldest was given up as a baby because her father is a demon. Season 1 finale reveal. ;)

I'm calling it now.  Her father wasn't a demon - her father was Harry their whitelighter.  He's the one who kept her away from her half-sisters and now brought her back so they could become Charmed.

Although it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Harry isn't really a whitelighter but is a demon like Chris should've been.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Esmeralda

[Guest]

On 24/07/2018 at 11:44 PM, Esmeralda said:

I'm calling it now.  Her father wasn't a demon - her father was Harry their whitelighter.  He's the one who kept her away from her half-sisters and now brought her back so they could become Charmed.

Although it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Harry isn't really a whitelighter but is a demon like Chris should've been.

 

Unless said Whitelighter is in to cougars, the age gap is quite large for that to be a possibility.  

The sisters are 22, 28 and 34 so I imagine their mother is at least mid 50s. 

Unless the 28 and 34 year olds are playing much younger than themselves, which wouldn't work IMO. 

 

Edit - Actually, I just discovered the "new sister" is actually 28 so the middle child. BUT she's the tallest and has been given the power of telekinesis so in TV terms she's the oldest. Lmao. 

 

I know the girls from the original didn't play their roles in their true birth order, but their real ages were quite close together so it was redundant. 6 years between each sister and 14 between the oldest and youngest is too large for it not to be noticeable on screen. 

 

Given this is the CW, how likely is it they will allow one of the sisters to be *gasps in horror* 34?? Lol. 

 

Edit 2 - Although no sign of the... elders yet in this version so a good sign. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Lost

[Scarlett45]

On 7/25/2018 at 7:03 PM, Lost said:

Unless said Whitelighter is in to cougars, the age gap is quite large for that to be a possibility.  

The sisters are 22, 28 and 34 so I imagine their mother is at least mid 50s. 

Unless the 28 and 34 year olds are playing much younger than themselves, which wouldn't work IMO. 

 

Edit - Actually, I just discovered the "new sister" is actually 28 so the middle child. BUT she's the tallest and has been given the power of telekinesis so in TV terms she's the oldest. Lmao. 

 

I know the girls from the original didn't play their roles in their true birth order, but their real ages were quite close together so it was redundant. 6 years between each sister and 14 between the oldest and youngest is too large for it not to be noticeable on screen. 

 

Given this is the CW, how likely is it they will allow one of the sisters to be *gasps in horror* 34?? Lol. 

 

Edit 2 - Although no sign of the... elders yet in this version so a good sign. 

I think all the actresses are playing younger than their years. Isn’t the youngest still in college (and she went right out of HS), so maybe they are 28, 25, 21 in show. 

[Esmeralda]

Here's what was originally posted regarding the sisters.  Although first names and last names have changed, I haven't seen anything that says the ages have changed:

 

Quote

MACY | A witty, intense science nerd, Macy — who is in her late 20s — is a Ph.D. in quantum physics who’s moving with her boyfriend Galvin to Hilltowne, Michigan, to work in the university lab. Macy has reason to believe that she is the sister of Mel and Madison. Her power is telekinesis.

MEL PRUITT | A strong-willed feminist, she feels deeply and is a bit controlling. Mel — who is in her mid 20s and a lesbian — is the sister of Madison. In the wake of a tragic accident, the grieving Mel becomes angry, defiantly unkempt, even violent, pushing away those who might help her, including her girlfriend, Detective Soo Jin. Mel’s power is time-freezing.

MADISON PRUITT | Mel’s younger sister (she’s 18-ish), an athletic (pilates, cheerleading) college student pledging a sorority, Madison is the opposite of her feminist sister with a desire to fit in. Madison is horrified to learn she is a witch. Her power is hearing people’s thoughts.
 

Given those ages, I wouldn't count the mother as a cougar at all.  Besides, if you think of both Piper & Leo and Cole & Phoebe, their age differences (both were around 80-90 now even if they looked 20s-30s), you can see this really wouldn't matter.  It's why I'm pretty sure Harry is Macy's father.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Esmeralda

[Guest]

On 02/08/2018 at 12:36 AM, Esmeralda said:

Here's what was originally posted regarding the sisters.  Although first names and last names have changed, I haven't seen anything that says the ages have changed:

 

Given those ages, I wouldn't count the mother as a cougar at all.  Besides, if you think of both Piper & Leo and Cole & Phoebe, their age differences (both were around 80-90 now even if they looked 20s-30s), you can see this really wouldn't matter.  It's why I'm pretty sure Harry is Macy's father.

 

I wasn't really thinking of the ages of the characters but the actors. 

The lady playing their mother looks like she could be Harry's mother too age wise. 

100 year old Cole and 25 year old Phoebe wasn't really the same when depicted by 27 year old Alyssa Milano and 32 year old Julian McMahon. 

EDIT: Actually, I just read TV Guide which states ALL three sisters have different fathers. A very modern family. Lol. The "different fathers to explore different heritages and cultures of magic" makes me think it will be Harry even less. 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Lost

[Adira]

I've been rewatching the original and I'm starting to get anxious about this reboot.  At first, I was kind of excited, because, even though it's a remake, I was looking forward to seeing witches, white lighters, demons, etc back on my TV every week.  But now I'm wondering if they can possibly do it any justice.  The original Charmed was so amazing...

Here's some of my hopes for the new series:

• An epic love story, like Piper and Leo, except hopefully without as much of the angst this couple had to endure
• Overarching and complex story lines, like the ones involving The Source, Cole's redemption/The Source/coming back from the dead, etc.
• A slow development of their powers - from fairly clueless in episode one to a mastery of their powers, mixing potions, creating spells, etc after many seasons
• Sisterly bonds!  There's nothing more Charmed than the bond between the three (four) sisters!

[Keywestclubkid]

Looks like Melinda will be a part of this show

[Scarlett45]

On 9/24/2018 at 4:09 PM, Keywestclubkid said:

Looks like Melinda will be a part of this show

Would be nice if they were also descendants of Melinda. 

[K42]

I'm happy Charmed is getting a reboot. I'm even happier than Shannen Doherty seems to on board with it. I hope they bring Prue back and a mentor or something. I love her on screen presence and frankly, all the shows she left end up sucking after she let go. I hate what's become of HMC, Alyssa Milano and Rose. They constantly sound so ungrateful towards the show, not to mention how off putting they've been towards each other. This makes the old show kinda difficult to watch and enjoy. The only issue I have with this is that the creator is the same person who did Jane The Virgin which was an awful show. I also can't tell the sisters apart. They all look way too similar.

[HunterHunted]

On 10/4/2018 at 3:32 AM, K42 said:

The only issue I have with this is that the creator is the same person who did Jane The Virgin which was an awful show.

Really? Because it's received a Peabody Award, an American Film Institute Award, nominated for Emmy Awards, and a couple of Golden Globes, which is something that the original Charmed couldn't dream of. If we assume that nominations for certain industry awards is a semi-objective measure of quality, which I'm not saying it is, then Jane the Virgin is semi-objectively good and better than original Charmed could ever hope to be. The original Charmed wasn't even nominated for any of these awards.

However, I do agree with you about the roiling animosity and sourness in the original cast. It does make it a little harder to watch the show. These women would build Spite Houses if they could. And frankly, a Charmed Spite House Tour would be as good a money maker as anything else they've ever done.

Edited October 7, 2018 by HunterHunted

[Primal Slayer]

Buffy was a 10x better show then JTV but never nominated like it should've been. 

The original cast didnt start out bitter towards a reboot, it was after they were constantly put down by the media, some of the new cast, and the internet is what made them bitter towards the reboot. And they all have a history so of course it wont always be puppy dogs and rainbows but it is something that they get over eventually. Shannen/Alyssa made up, Holly/Alyssa made up, Rose is kind of on her own little island.

[DeathQuaker]

While I'll warrant Jane the Virgin's telenovela-inspired melodramedy definitely isn't for everyone, the show is nonetheless a tightly paced and written, complex show, critically acclaimed for its delicate-yet-firm handling of various social issues, balancing real romance with excellent satire, having a well-put-together cast of characters including POCs and LGBTQ persons, and most of all being at its core a story about a family of three, very different, strong women who support and love (and struggle with and still love) one another. With that record, I cannot think of a better show runner for Charmed than Jennie Snyder Urman. (And if you haven't seen the show or only a small portion of it, I strongly recommend giving it the four episode treatment; I can't guarantee you'll like it but I can guarantee it is probably not what you are expecting.) I'd have little hope for this reboot except that she's involved.

Edited October 9, 2018 by DeathQuaker

[HunterHunted]

On 10/7/2018 at 8:09 PM, Primal Slayer said:

Buffy was a 10x better show then JTV but never nominated like it should've been.

I'm going to disagree that Buffy is a better show than Jane the Virgin and I own all of Buffy and do a series rewatch almost every year. When Buffy was good, it was beyond compare. But when it was bad, it was absolutely dreadful. Beer Bad? I think Buffy is great and indelible. Many shows, including Jane, owe a lot to Buffy, but it's got some aspects that are really not great. Including that Joss' surrogate, Xander, is an entitled "nice guy" douchebag who almost never suffers any permanent setbacks for his fucked treatment of women. Also Buffy was nominated for some Emmys (for Hush), Golden Globes, and an American Film Institute Award.

Also while I LOVED Angel the show, Boreanaz had no business booking Buffy because his ass could not fucking act. He was abysmal in season 1.

Buffy was good; Jane is good. They are just good in different ways.

Quote

The original cast didnt start out bitter towards a reboot, it was after they were constantly put down by the media, some of the new cast, and the internet is what made them bitter towards the reboot. And they all have a history so of course it wont always be puppy dogs and rainbows but it is something that they get over eventually. Shannen/Alyssa made up, Holly/Alyssa made up, Rose is kind of on her own little island.

Holly was always negative about the reboot. Shannen and Alyssa were a little bit more diplomatic, but Holly has always been sour about it. I was really speaking more towards their relationships with each other. It's the 20th Anniversary and they can't even do an EW reunion because Rose hates all of them, but especially Alyssa, Holly and Shannen might still have issues, and almost everyone seems to have less than fond memories of that set.

Edited October 10, 2018 by HunterHunted

[Primal Slayer]

They cant do an EW reunion if they are never invited to do an EW reunion. Holly, Brian, even Shannen at one time do Charmed conventions so there have to be plenty of fond memories. Not to mnetion that Holly/Alyssa have talked about how great it was, Shannen wanted to a do a reunion with everyone. Shannen/Alyssa have no issues with one another, Holly/Alyssa have no issues with one another, Shannen/Holly can probably be cordial. Rose is Rose...but I am fure if EW called the original 3 would get together. But every cast has issues during their run, Charmed was no different. 

Holly doesnt have to be excited for the show to be rebooted but she never spoke negatively (that I can even remember) until the current reboot came about and stones were thrown.

[HunterHunted]

On 10/9/2018 at 7:30 PM, Primal Slayer said:

Holly doesnt have to be excited for the show to be rebooted but she never spoke negatively (that I can even remember) until the current reboot came about and stones were thrown.

No one threw stones at them. Holly was pissed when she saw the logline. Even in it's best seasons, Charmed was "feminist" in that very superficial late 90s Spice Girls way, meaning not very and superficially. Holly can be upset that her efforts and work didn't result in something that was well regarded and thought of as feminist, but she doesn't have the distance or maturity to accept that she tried and the effort fell short.*

But I can't get over her fucking petulance. In the past 30 years, we've had 6 different live action reboots of Batman, 3 different Spider Men, 5 different guys play Superman, 3 different actors play the Hulk, 3 different reboots of Catwoman, and an entire much younger cast reboot Star Trek, but somehow Charmed, the Piper character, and HMC are too good for this treatment. Charmed was entertaining, but not good. It's loved, but kind of sheepishly and ironically.

What makes her comments even more obnoxious is that not a single one of these new actresses is playing a Halliwell. So she's pissed because CBS decided to do to Charmed what Star Trek has been doing on TV for 30 fucking years with Next Generation, Deep Space 9, Voyager, Enterprise, and Discovery to great success and Norman Lear has done recently with One Day at a Time, but Charmed is too precious a jewel for that. She needs to get the fuck over herself.

And I would classify the discord in the Charmed cast as unusual. If it still makes headlines decades after the show is off the air, it was probably pretty significant. That the original Star Trek cast hated William Shatner still makes headlines because it was pretty significant. That Kate Mulgrew hated Jeri Ryan does not, even though it was ridiculous pettiness on Mulgrew's part, because it never bled into their performances and Mulgrew admits that she was being an asshole.

But Holly's behavior has managed to sour me completely on her. She's an asshole and not that talented.

*When you realize the other shows that were on the network at the same time Charmed was running, it will highlight just how poor the execution of Charmed was. Besides Buffy, there was Angel, Gilmore Girls, Felicity, Girlfriends, Veronica Mars, Everwood, Smallville (which was not great either, but had a slightly better grasp on it's world building), and Everybody Hates Chris.

Edited October 11, 2018 by HunterHunted

[HunterHunted]

I didn't know about the younger actresses' social media behavior. That's not ok or professional. Then Holly instagrams a picture of herself as Piper holding a knife saying "we wish them well." That's a weirdly antagonistic response. There were stones thrown on both sides. Even if the younger actresses went low first, she could have responded like Shannen and Alyssa, who were far more diplomatic. Instead she started responding like an immature asshole too. At least 2 of the actresses in the reboot are in their 20s, what's Holly's excuse.

Yes, Charmed was "feminist" for it's era and part of it's run. However, its peers including Ally McBeal, Sex and the City, and Buffy have had their versions of feminism reexamined and critiqued in recent years. Charmed is no less or more deserving of similar critiques. Holly is just too emotional and immature to notice that this something cultural critics are doing to lots of late 90s shows.

I agree with the younger actress that Charmed had no PoC because it functionally did not. Darryl and Sheila were there, but race almost never informed anything those two characters ever did. The show had 2 episodes that I can recall that focused on Chinese culture. They had the 1 episode about Dr. Ava/Eva her family's Romani magical practice. Considering how long the show ran, this basically amounts to no representation because it was so rare and usually incompetent that it's negligible. Buffy had similar issues as did Sex and the City. This is a perfectly valid criticism; it's not throwing stones. If Holly can't tell the difference, then she should get out of the business. And frankly if Charmed hadn't been viewed as mostly crap by TV critics in the 90s and early aughts, it would have received more contemporaneous criticism about diversity as Buffy and Sex and the City actually did.

[Primal Slayer]

When Charmed had Darryl as part of the main cast for majority of its run, it cant be claimed that they didn't have any POC in its cast. Sure it is no nowhere near what nuCharmed will have but it is still a hella lot more then say Buffy and a lot of shows in the 90s.

[HunterHunted]

Hooray! They're such freaking heroes for creating a near perfect example of a token Black character, never giving him agency, and treating the character disrespectfully. The episode where Darryl nearly gets executed is probably his best storyline because it was the first time the show acknowledged that the women transgressed in his life and on his autonomy and didn't really give two shits about how he dealt with it. It was always "ha ha we put a spell on Darryl" "ha ha we borrowed his soul without permission" "ha ha Darryl got beat up by a demon."

We're told that Darryl is a smart hardworking inspector, but a significant number of his appearances he ended up as a punchline or a joke. There is nothing laudable about the treatment of this character; it is shockingly close minstrelsy to make me comfortable. Even worse is that Darryl gets very few opportunities to subvert this. Buffy had very little diversity and treated Kendra terribly. But if they had a character as badly realized as Darryl they would have been excoriated. Furthermore, Charmed never pulled this same shit with Andy, Sheridan, Brody, or Agent Big Wolf on Campus.

Sex and the City is still criticized for the fucked up episode where Samantha dated a Black music producer because it's sketchy as fuq.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/06/sex-and-the-city-sundra-oakley

[Matt K]

4 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Yes, Charmed was "feminist" for it's era and part of it's run. However, its peers including Ally McBeal, Sex and the City, and Buffy have had their versions of feminism reexamined and critiqued in recent years. Charmed is no less or more deserving of similar critiques. Holly is just too emotional and immature to notice that this something cultural critics are doing to lots of late 90s shows.

I agree with the younger actress that Charmed had no PoC because it functionally did not. Darryl and Sheila were there, but race almost never informed anything those two characters ever did. The show had 2 episodes that I can recall that focused on Chinese culture. They had the 1 episode about Dr. Ava/Eva her family's Romani magical practice. Considering how long the show ran, this basically amounts to no representation because it was so rare and usually incompetent that it's negligible. Buffy had similar issues as did Sex and the City. This is a perfectly valid criticism; it's not throwing stones. If Holly can't tell the difference, then she should get out of the business. And frankly if Charmed hadn't been viewed as mostly crap by TV critics in the 90s and early aughts, it would have received more contemporaneous criticism about diversity as Buffy and Sex and the City actually did.

I not sure you can really even call the show feminist in any real way.  It's not feminist to just have a show starting women.  I could see argument that the first few seasons may have been (its been a while since I saw them) but after Shannon and Constance left that quickly got left behind.  

 

I agree Darryl doesn't really count much.  He was mostly there to be used as the plot demanded (and the sisters really did a lot of crappy things to him).  Even counting Darryl that what one character (who's effectively a background character if we're being generous).  That's something I really like about the new show's set up, they're actually embracing diversity.  I'm not sure if you counted it but first season had the episode with John Cho which involved a Chinese spirit.  If that was included then its even sadder since for 7 more seasons they had 1 more episode that dealt with any sort of Asian culture.  I would love it if the new show brought in mythology from all over, not just the mainly European and Christian mythology.  

 

I am a fan of the original.  But the show had a ton of issues (like how it treated Darryl or Cole for that matter, had little idea what to do with Phoebe or Paige) and once Shannon and Constance left it became a very different show from those first few seasons.   So I'm hoping that the new show can take what worked from the original and avoid what didn't.  

[HunterHunted]

18 minutes ago, Matt K said:

I'm not sure if you counted it but first season had the episode with John Cho which involved a Chinese spirit.  If that was included then its even sadder since for 7 more seasons they had 1 more episode that dealt with any sort of Asian culture.  I would love it if the new show brought in mythology from all over, not just the mainly European and Christian mythology.  

I AM counting the John Cho episode. I realized that I forgot "Enter the Demon" with Daniel Dae Kim and James Hong guesting. "12 Angry Zen" is the other one; it's the one with the Chinese Zodiac. Maybe there's another one featuring any type of Asian culture, but I don't think so. So the total for an 8 season show is 3 episodes for a show set in SAN FRANCISCO!

That's not even counting half the idiotic things out of Phoebe's mouth when she's living with Jason in Hong Kong. She always shows up in a cheongsam and starts babbling about spending her time on her origami, learning Chinese fortune cookie proverbs, numerology, and Chinese Zodiac. It's like everything they knew about Hong Kong and Chinese culture came from the Chinese restaurant down the street and Saturday afternoon kung fu movies. Season 6 aired in 2003 and 2004, so not only did the internet exist, but it was widely used by everyone. The writers were too lazy to Google, Ask Jeeves, or use internet explorer to find anything about Hong Kong.

That's also episode about Grams' enchanted boots that gets nearly every detail about Grams' life wrong. It's filled with a massive number of contradictions to the prior 5 and a half seasons of canon. Witchstock is such an peculiar recap and episode to revisit. Demian, who recapped the show for TWoP, hated it. However he had a better grasp on what was canon and what was not because he had to watch it super closely. The writers on the show clearly didn't give a flying fig.

[Primal Slayer]

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Hooray! They're such freaking heroes for creating a near perfect example of a token Black character, never giving him agency, and treating the character disrespectfully. The episode where Darryl nearly gets executed is probably his best storyline because it was the first time the show acknowledged that the women transgressed in his life and on his autonomy and didn't really give two shits about how he dealt with it. It was always "ha ha we put a spell on Darryl" "ha ha we borrowed his soul without permission" "ha ha Darryl got beat up by a demon."

We're told that Darryl is a smart hardworking inspector, but a significant number of his appearances he ended up as a punchline or a joke. There is nothing laudable about the treatment of this character; it is shockingly close minstrelsy to make me comfortable. Even worse is that Darryl gets very few opportunities to subvert this. Buffy had very little diversity and treated Kendra terribly. But if they had a character as badly realized as Darryl they would have been excoriated. Furthermore, Charmed never pulled this same shit with Andy, Sheridan, Brody, or Agent Big Wolf on Campus.

Sex and the City is still criticized for the fucked up episode where Samantha dated a Black music producer because it's sketchy as fuq.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/06/sex-and-the-city-sundra-oakley

If you want to call them heroes you are more then welcomed to. Males in general on Charmed were all treated the same up until Phoebe became obsessed with them in the later seasons. Cole probably had the most to do (and he still ended up becoming a joke) but even Leo didn't get stellar writing. I know Charmed aint a ground breaking, super well written, ahead of its time show! No one is trying to claim it as so but Darryl was still a very enjoyable character and to he was around for 6 seasons so when one of the actors try to say "they didn't have any POC" um they did, thats a fact jack. It's a role that Dorian was happy with and he still continues to go to Charmed related functions off and on and as a POC myself, I am not going to just forget his role on the show.

Sheridan, Brody were around for 10 episodes, Darryl was around for 78, Andy 22. He had a totally different relationship with the girls then any of those characters did (not to say taking his soul without his permission is ok but when you are around longer, the more that is going to be happen to you then someone who is around for 10 episodes). Not to mention that all the characters were becoming shit in S6 But there was nothing close to minstrel about Darryl imo. 

Charmed was a really enjoyable show up until Charmed and Dangerous then it just started to spiral for everyone.

[GaT]

On 10/9/2018 at 5:18 PM, HunterHunted said:

I'm going to disagree that Buffy is a better show than Jane the Virgin and I own all of Buffy and do a series rewatch almost every year. When Buffy was good, it was beyond compare. But when it was bad, it was absolutely dreadful. Beer Bad?

One of my favorite episodes, foamy!

[Lady Calypso]

Ah, so the pilot has aired and I'm hoping that I won't have these upcoming long posts for very long, but it's bound to happen for this pilot.

Some things about this pilot in comparison to the original:

1. Harry's Whitelighter powers are basically not like Leo's Whitelighter powers at all. I get it's a reboot and all, but he doesn't even ORB. They're called WHITELIGHTERS for a reason, show! At least Harry can heal, and I guess Harry can teleport faster than Leo ever did (it took him forever to get from one place to another) but goddamn, I wish they kept his teleportation method. It looked cooler for me. 
2. The Book of Shadows is completely different. It does look nice, but the front of the book looks shiny and new while the pages look old, so it's a disconnect.
3. The eldest sister turned middle sister, Mel, has the power to freeze time but unlike Piper, she's actually excited to be a witch, essentially a little more like Phoebe.
4. Maggie is the youngest still so her role in the family has not changed. She's young like Phoebe and doesn't have an active power, but she is totally reluctant to accept her powers. I do like her having mind-reading instead of premonitions...HOWEVER, Phoebe's powers were always helpful in some way while I'm not quite sure how helpful Maggie's powers will be. I guess it could be more useful during a fight, but that's only if demons start thinking a lot. 
5. Macy has telekinesis, much like Prue, and is the eldest. That's all I really got on the comparisons.
6. The activation of their powers was...dull, to say the least. It didn't help that it was a flash of lightning and then it suddenly cut to commercial. And then nothing magical actually happened and the next scene, they were displaying their powers. 
7. No surprise Brian's a demon, much like the Jeremy/Piper reveal in the original's pilot. But demons here possess people, much like the Supernatural demons, instead of demons legit being demons. Well, at least this type of demon. 
8. The main villain of the week was different than any of the monsters on the original, but it is because the CGI here is better than it was back in the late 90s/early 2000s. So I guess it was cool to see here. I will somewhat miss the cheesy spells from the original, but I think I enjoyed the spells with this reboot. I'm not sure how much, though.
9. I feel like I got to know the relationship of the Halliwell sisters better in their pilot than here. Of course, all three Halliwells were already sisters right off the bat and Macy isn't, but I feel like they didn't develop it well enough before their powers were activated. They did a better job by the end of this reboot pilot but I still didn't get a good feel of all three's relationships. Charmed's writing could be iffy here and there but the one great thing about the original's pilot is how they utilized their first scene with all three sisters and establishing their bond and the different relationships with each other right off the bat. We knew Phoebe/Prue didn't get along, Piper was the mediator, and we knew what each sister was like individually. In this reboot pilot, we got very little on all three sisters, not enough for me to know what each of them are like individually.
10. The appeal of Charmed was that there was no Leo initially so the Halliwells had to figure stuff out on their own. The reboot pilot had Harry creeping around and telling them what to do so often that it really started to piss me off. 

Overall, I was way too focused on comparing the reboot pilot to the original, and I don't think I can do it to stay sane, since the two are vastly different. 

[Primal Slayer]

Maybe it was because I to happened to have OG Charmed in the back of my mind while watching the pilot but I feel like they didn't do a good job of matching the powers with the personalities? In the original they made sure to kind of mold each sister into a way that made their powers suit them so well. Maybe apart from Maggie who is concerned with other peoples thoughts about her since shes rushing.

[Primal Slayer]

16 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Ah, so the pilot has aired and I'm hoping that I won't have these upcoming long posts for very long, but it's bound to happen for this pilot.

Some things about this pilot in comparison to the original:

I agree with everything basically.

Dont call him a whitelighter if he doesnt have any orbs attached to him!

While the demon looked cooler then any of the demons we got in Charmed (S1 they tried to make them look like demons), I think again, Something Wicca THis Way Come beat them with having Jeremy already be a major part of Pipers life and to an extent the sisters since he was dating her in anticipation of her getting her powers and they gave us a mystery of a mass murderer.

Having Harry be so important is such a huge mistake. Leo became important later on but he never had this much to do with the sisters. These new girls on the block dont have to work at figuring thigns out since Harry is here to lay it all for them. And giving them 24hrs to make up their mind on being a witch? The Halliwells just had to accept it and they couldnt turn their backs. That should've carried over to this.

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, Primal Slayer said:

While the demon looked cooler then any of the demons we got in Charmed (S1 they tried to make them look like demons), I think again, Something Wicca THis Way Come beat them with having Jeremy already be a major part of Pipers life and to an extent the sisters since he was dating her in anticipation of her getting her powers and they gave us a mystery of a mass murderer.

The issue is they tried to emulate that through Maggie's ex Brian, but because they seem to want to make him Maggie's long term love interest and didn't want to kill him right off the bat, they chickened out and had him merely possessed by a demon. 

2 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Having Harry be so important is such a huge mistake. Leo became important later on but he never had this much to do with the sisters. These new girls on the block dont have to work at figuring thigns out since Harry is here to lay it all for them. And giving them 24hrs to make up their mind on being a witch? The Halliwells just had to accept it and they couldnt turn their backs. That should've carried over to this.

Even when they retconned that in season 3 during their flashback episode with Piper/Leo meeting pre-series, he still kept his distance and wasn't an annoying tool like Harry is. He still let the girls learn on their own and only started intervening once they got a handle of their powers.

Again, the whole "you get 24 hours to choose" seems to be a callback to season 4 and Paige having a short window to become a witch, but that was more about her either being a good witch or an evil witch, rather than choosing to be a witch or not, so it was dumb. Plus, NOTHING came out of it here. I actually forgot that it was a choice until after the episode ended because they tried to do too much in the pilot and seemed to forget about this window the scene after the option was presented.

[Primal Slayer]

I can already feel that having all the sisters be based on campus is going to be a bad thing. In the original, the main connection for the sisters was the Halliwell Manor, outside of that, they all had very different jobs in different places living their lives while here the Veras will be able to interact with each other 24/7.

[Lady Calypso]

4 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I can already feel that having all the sisters be based on campus is going to be a bad thing. In the original, the main connection for the sisters was the Halliwell Manor, outside of that, they all had very different jobs in different places living their lives while here the Veras will be able to interact with each other 24/7.

Actually, the one thing I wish happened more in the original was seeing the personal lives of each sister more outside of the Manor. I wish they weren't all working at the exact same campus, but having a different setting with each sister in a different world might help establish them more. They still need a base of operations and although I liked the Vera house, it doesn't have the personality that the Halliwell manor did. The Halliwell Manor practically opened itself to the supernatural world. I don't quite get that feel for the Vera House yet, but that's likely because the first vanquish for these sister was at the school, rather than in their home. 

[slf]

There's a white light whenever Harry heals so that they still call them whitelighters doesn't bother me. There were some effects from the original that I didn't care for. The ridiculously slow orbing, the chiming sound, etc.

I love the new house. It almost reminds of the one from Witches of East End, which is a compliment.

On 10/9/2018 at 7:30 PM, Primal Slayer said:

Shannen/Holly can probably be cordial.

We're they always friends? It was Shannen and Alyssa who couldn't stand each other.

[Primal Slayer]

6 minutes ago, slf said:

There's a white light whenever Harry heals so that they still call them whitelighters doesn't bother me. There were some effects from the original that I didn't care for. The ridiculously slow orbing, the chiming sound, etc.

I love the new house. It almost reminds of the one from Witches of East End, which is a compliment.

We're they always friends? It was Shannen and Alyssa who couldn't stand each other.

I am pretty sure it is the same house as Witches of East End lol.

Shannen/Holly were bffs for 20+ years up until she got cancer.

[Lady Calypso]

34 minutes ago, slf said:

There's a white light whenever Harry heals so that they still call them whitelighters doesn't bother me. There were some effects from the original that I didn't care for. The ridiculously slow orbing, the chiming sound, etc.

True, the orbing on the original WAS slow and yeah, the chime sound effect could get annoying. I just wish Harry disappeared into a white light. Plus, his healing was a little too quick for me. I know, I know, I'm nitpicking but it's going to take some time for me to stop comparing both. I guess I need to get this all out of my system.

I want to know what this reboot's whitelighters are. Are they still angels, of sorts? Since Harry was talking about "them" and "they", I guess the show has their own form of Elders. But do they live "Up There"? I guess so, since Harry was instructed to get around like humans would. I guess the one thing I liked about the Whitelighters' teleportation method is that it looked like they went up when they orbed. Here, Harry seems to just...vanish? I don't know the proper term, but it certainly doesn't seem like he goes up or down.

I know the reboot is trying to establish itself away from the original, and they've put in some decent Easter Eggs, but I guess my expectations were too high for this one. I know I need to readjust my expectations here.

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

True, the orbing on the original WAS slow and yeah, the chime sound effect could get annoying. I just wish Harry disappeared into a white light. Plus, his healing was a little too quick for me. I know, I know, I'm nitpicking but it's going to take some time for me to stop comparing both. I guess I need to get this all out of my system.

I want to know what this reboot's whitelighters are. Are they still angels, of sorts? Since Harry was talking about "them" and "they", I guess the show has their own form of Elders. But do they live "Up There"? I guess so, since Harry was instructed to get around like humans would. I guess the one thing I liked about the Whitelighters' teleportation method is that it looked like they went up when they orbed. Here, Harry seems to just...vanish? I don't know the proper term, but it certainly doesn't seem like he goes up or down.

I know the reboot is trying to establish itself away from the original, and they've put in some decent Easter Eggs, but I guess my expectations were too high for this one. I know I need to readjust my expectations here.

I believe what Harry does is Apparition stolen straight from Harry Potter. The healing was WAY quick, he flashed his hand and BAM! Back from the dead.

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I believe what Harry does is Apparition stolen straight from Harry Potter. The healing was WAY quick, he flashed his hand and BAM! Back from the dead.

Thanks for that. I knew it was from HP, but couldn't remember the damn name for it. 

As for the healing, yeah, it seemed to be used as comedic effect the second time, but I simply did not laugh. 

Also a good point made on the episode thread about the first spell the sisters used together: unlike the simple, and really lame, chant the sisters used to defeat Jeremy, this seemed to go in the opposite direction with the sisters using a more complicated spell...in another language! I mean, I know the Power of Three chant was lame for the pilot but having the girls magically know how to say the spell perfectly here by only glancing at it during that scene was really ridiculous. I wanted a balance with the spells since the spells on the original were cheesy, at best. But to go to straight up complicated is a bit too much, here.