S26.E04: Finale

[boyznkatz]

17 hours ago, crowceilidh said:

Trust me, disliking Jenna has nothing to do with this season in particular and everything to do with Jenna in general - if you read the boards the many reasons boil down to 1) she is terrible at choreo that features anyone but her 2) she mugs for the camera so constantly and obviously that it's hard to see and soemtimes hear anything else when she is on screen 3) the pity is because Val.

I agree she can be annoying, but she did do a good job with Adam with the exception of the horrible freestyle, which was offensive. How many times have Mark and Derek done that, though? I still cringe thinking about Mark's horrible "afro-jazz" with Ally Reisman, or Derek's god-awful "bhangra" with Shawn Johnson. Jenna made a mistake, but she's young and has talent, so hopefully she learns something from the (deserved) backlash.

[spanana]

15 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

P.S. Donald wasn't near as pimped as Katharine and William that season, but Peta somehow managed to pull off the win. 

This is all so apples and oranges though because even if Donald wasn't as pimped, he wasn't up against anyone else that was super famous or that was a lock to win from day one.  Neither William nor Katherine were ever going to be the kind of celebs that were going to be unbeatable and so Donald always had a chance to win, even if he wasn't getting the regular tongue baths from the judges (I honestly don't remember what sort of critiques he got).   That is not the same as anyone this season going up against an Adam Rippon (in a 4 week season) or Charlie being sacrificed at the alter of Meryl or James Hinchcliffe having to face an Olympic darling FRESH off a gold medal win.  It's apples and oranges.

Yes, there are pros that have clearly lost due to the freestyle.  Gilles/Cheryl are the prime example of that.  In this case Jenna could have lost due to the freestyle if this was a normal season where people had a legitimate chance to actually vote based on what happened in the finale.  But it wasn't so she was spared that potential humiliation because nobody else ever really had a chance and people didn't really get a chance to vote on the freestyles (barely).

But you can do a killer freestyle and still lose if you are going up against an anointed one, as long as said anointed one does't totally balk the freestyle.  If somebody is going to do a Marie Osmond freestyle then okay maybe, but there is still only so much these pros can do in certain cases.

Also with no due disrespect to Peta, I actually find Sharna a better overall pro.  I find most of Peta's dances boring as all get out, including her freestyles.  Donald Driver not withstanding.  That I enjoyed.

[spanana]

12 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

I agree she can be annoying, but she did do a good job with Adam with the exception of the horrible freestyle, which was offensive. How many times have Mark and Derek done that, though? I still cringe thinking about Mark's horrible "afro-jazz" with Ally Reisman, or Derek's god-awful "bhangra" with Shawn Johnson. Jenna made a mistake, but she's young and has talent, so hopefully she learns something from the (deserved) backlash.

I hope so too, but my issue with Jenna in the past is she hasn't shown much willingness to listen and learn.  Maybe this time will be different but she's been heavily influenced by the Val "I'm always right" line of thinking so she takes any valid critique from fans (such as cultural appropriation) as bullying and blocks people and labels everyone not up her ass haters.  I don't know if she's seen these critiques yet since she's probably still on a high from winning and maybe hasn't had a chance to read what people are saying yet, but I've seen it before.  People tried to talk to her about evoking Native American imagery when she got a bad fake tan was pretending to be Pocahontas, and she ignored it and blocked everyone.  She's pretended to be ghetto and hood, because apparently wearing basketball hats makes one ghetto and uses hood imagery/slang and when fans tried to clue her in that it was vaguely appropriative and racist, she shut down and blocked blocked blocked.  I'd have more respect for her if she would have a true reflective moment here and there, but I think it's unlikely to happen as long as Val is behind her since he is the king of the never apologize or admit any wrong doing school of thinking.  Any time he has said something remotely offensive, he has doubled down in the face of fan reaction, and Jenna pretty clearly takes her cues from mr. permanent chip on the shoulder.

[Toonces464]

41 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

I never said Sharna was a sleaze, and I didn't trash her. I just don't like her dancing.

Cheryl had a horrible freestyle with Gilles, and Maks's freestyle with Mel B was no picnic either. They could have won if they had better freestyles. No one but themselves to blame for those. Peta has delivered some pretty good freestyles, like Donald Driver's and Nyle's. That's why she won so many times.

P.S. Donald wasn't near as pimped as Katharine and William that season, but Peta somehow managed to pull off the win. 

That's kind of my point. If you say Sharna can't win with a contender then you can say that about pretty much every pro, whether it's been due to a bad freestyle, a competitor with a huge fan base, or just fan voting for favorites. I just keep seeing Charlie's name being brought up over and over as some kind of "proof" that Sharna can't win and I think that's a silly example.

Those two freestyles of Peta's were not done by her. Talia Favia choreographed Nyle's and believe it or not, it was Karina who did Donald's. And yes, William was definitely pimped but I never saw even the tiniest bit of Katherine being pimped. 

[boyznkatz]

20 minutes ago, spanana said:

But you can do a killer freestyle and still lose if you are going up against an anointed one, as long as said anointed one does't totally balk the freestyle.  If somebody is going to do a Marie Osmond freestyle then okay maybe, but there is still only so much these pros can do in certain cases.

Has anyone ever done an awesome freestyle and lost? I honestly don't remember, because most of the freestyles have been blah since they started doing contemporary and jazz and broadway numbers on the regular season. A few I do remember, like Cheryl and Drew's, and Peta's with Donald. Shawn Johnson's was also good (the first time she was on) and so was Alfonso's with Witney. 

[Toonces464]

4 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

Has anyone ever done an awesome freestyle and lost? I honestly don't remember, because most of the freestyles have been blah since they started doing contemporary and jazz and broadway numbers on the regular season. A few I do remember, like Cheryl and Drew's, and Peta's with Donald. Shawn Johnson's was also good (the first time she was on) and so was Alfonso's with Witney. 

Two of the non-winning freestyles I loved, which many probably either didn't like or don't remember LOL, were Erin/Maks and Jason/Edyta. I also loved the one JR/Karina won with.

Bit of trivia - Season 10 (Nicole/Derek, Evan/Anna, Erin/Maks) is the only season where not one 10 was given in any of the freestyles.

[boyznkatz]

4 minutes ago, Toonces464 said:

Two of the non-winning freestyles I loved, which many probably either didn't like or don't remember LOL, were Erin/Maks and Jason/Edyta. I also loved the one JR/Karina won with.

Bit of trivia - Season 10 (Nicole/Derek, Evan/Anna, Erin/Maks) is the only season where not one 10 was given in any of the freestyles.

I wish Edyta and Karina came back :-(

If I remember correctly, Evan's freestyle sucked. Nicole didn't get all 10s? Derek had some pretty good ones.

[LexieLily]

8 hours ago, PBGamer89 said:

ABC Publicity confirmed Tonya finished 3rd and Josh 2nd.

I ended why that wasn't announced. It couldn't have been to protect poor victimized Tonya's ego because goodness knows she has enough of one, and it wouldn't be the first time the propped one got third once they got to the finale (Chelsea Kane of the 15-point cha-cha, Normani)

[tessaforever]

1 hour ago, LexieLily said:

I ended why that wasn't announced. It couldn't have been to protect poor victimized Tonya's ego because goodness knows she has enough of one, and it wouldn't be the first time the propped one got third once they got to the finale (Chelsea Kane of the 15-point cha-cha, Normani)

Interesting theory. I thought they maybe just didn't have time because it was only an hour finale. (I think the most propped contestant who ever got third is Ginger Zee! But those others are pretty good too). I think TPTB loved being part of Tonya's redemption arc, but I don't think they wanted or expected her to win. 

[boyznkatz]

7 minutes ago, tessaforever said:

Interesting theory. I thought they maybe just didn't have time because it was only an hour finale. (I think the most propped contestant who ever got third is Ginger Zee! But those others are pretty good too). I think TPTB loved being part of Tonya's redemption arc, but I don't think they wanted or expected her to win. 

They claimed it was because they didn't have enough time, but they didn't have 5 minutes? It seems weird to me. I'm guessing Tonya was a distant third place.

I'm always pissed that they don't have enough time to interview the winners at the end, but this was ridiculous.

[realdancemom]

19 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

They claimed it was because they didn't have enough time, but they didn't have 5 minutes? It seems weird to me. I'm guessing Tonya was a distant third place.

I'm always pissed that they don't have enough time to interview the winners at the end, but this was ridiculous.

I can believe that they didn't have time.  One hour is so short.  They barely have time to interview the 1st and 2nd place finishers during a regular season with all the filler that they have.  One good thing about this finale was that there wasn't as much filler.  The whole season just felt rushed though.  We did get a great quote from Tom though comparing the time for the voting window of Monday's show with the time for the whole season.

[vdw84]

4 hours ago, ChrisMcGraan said:

I would have more respect for her if she didn't center her world around Val and actually tried to build her own identity

I hate to say this and may end up biting my words but I feel Val is going to hurt Jenna again and this time I dont know what she is going to do because she has her whole life revolved around him. I think deep down she knows V isnt good for her. Val likes the look of love but he doesnt know how to give love to the ones he is involved with. 

[realdancemom]

Sharna's time will come.  It's better if she wins a regular season.

One thing that I noticed is IMHO, Sharna's freestyle looked the most professional out of the three.  It's most likely because she does have experience creating them while this was Sasha's and Jenna's first one.  I liked Josh's freestyle the best because of it.  I'm talking about execution, lighting, camera work, etc.  I also liked the football theme because it matched Josh.  I did notice a bobble at the end which is unfortunate since that is the ending pose.

I know that not many people liked Adam's freestyle but it was my second favorite.  I do like Mark's and Jenna's K-Pop routine on SYTYCD.  It reminded me of that but I don't think the whole concept was completely thought out.  The music did not match the geisha theme.  Honestly, to avoid being accused of being culturally insensitive, they didn't even need to go there.  It could have just been a high tech fashion show.  The background dancers already looked like that instead of geishas.  Then Adam and Jenna could have dressed in colorful edgy costumes and the music would have matched too.  The lighting was too dark especially since they didn't highlight Adam and Jenna.  I could find Adam since he was usually front and center but I know that others commented that they sometimes lost him.  This dance was more stylized than technical.  They needed to be synchronized and they weren't.  As I previously posted, if viewers could have voted overnight, they might have lost because of this freestyle.  It's fine for SYTYCD and a showcase.  I think DWTS viewers want to see Wow/flashy moments in the freestyle and I don't think this dance provided that.   It was creative but also risky because judging from the response, there are a lot of people that hated it.

I thought the execution of Tanya's freestyle was amateurish.  She was beautiful and elegant in the V. Waltz.  She was energetic in this routine but clunky.  Her tumbling was nice if she was doing them in her backyard.  It bugged me that her knees were bent and her feet were flexed.  Her beginning solo where she  went across the floor was a series of poorly executed turns and leaps.  The turns that she did would look nice on the ice skating rink but looked clunky on a dance floor.  After she did a disco section, she started going in the wrong direction.  So if Tonya was somebody's mom or grandma, you would be proud to see her in an amateur show.  However, the execution was lacking for national TV. 

[boyznkatz]

3 hours ago, spanana said:

I hope so too, but my issue with Jenna in the past is she hasn't shown much willingness to listen and learn.  Maybe this time will be different but she's been heavily influenced by the Val "I'm always right" line of thinking so she takes any valid critique from fans (such as cultural appropriation) as bullying and blocks people and labels everyone not up her ass haters.  I don't know if she's seen these critiques yet since she's probably still on a high from winning and maybe hasn't had a chance to read what people are saying yet, but I've seen it before.  People tried to talk to her about evoking Native American imagery when she got a bad fake tan was pretending to be Pocahontas, and she ignored it and blocked everyone.  She's pretended to be ghetto and hood, because apparently wearing basketball hats makes one ghetto and uses hood imagery/slang and when fans tried to clue her in that it was vaguely appropriative and racist, she shut down and blocked blocked blocked.  I'd have more respect for her if she would have a true reflective moment here and there, but I think it's unlikely to happen as long as Val is behind her since he is the king of the never apologize or admit any wrong doing school of thinking.  Any time he has said something remotely offensive, he has doubled down in the face of fan reaction, and Jenna pretty clearly takes her cues from mr. permanent chip on the shoulder.

Yikes! It sounds like she needs to get away from Val, pronto. Who knows if she will, though. Hasn't he dated and dumped her several times already?

I remember when he fat-shamed a little girl, and when he got called out, he got defensive instead of apologizing. Who would want to date that?

[boyznkatz]

10 minutes ago, realdancemom said:

Sharna's time will come.  It's better if she wins a regular season.

One thing that I noticed is IMHO, Sharna's freestyle looked the most professional out of the three.  It's most likely because she does have experience creating them while this was Sasha's and Jenna's first one.  I liked Josh's freestyle the best because of it.  I'm talking about execution, lighting, camera work, etc.  I also liked the football theme because it matched Josh.  I did notice a bobble at the end which is unfortunate since that is the ending pose.

I know that not many people liked Adam's freestyle but it was my second favorite.  I do like Mark's and Jenna's K-Pop routine on SYTYCD.  It reminded me of that but I don't think the whole concept was completely thought out.  The music did not match the geisha theme.  Honestly, to avoid being accused of being culturally insensitive, they didn't even need to go there.  It could have just been a high tech fashion show.  The background dancers already looked like that instead of geishas.  Then Adam and Jenna could have dressed in colorful edgy costumes and the music would have matched too.  The lighting was too dark especially since they didn't highlight Adam and Jenna.  I could find Adam since he was usually front and center but I know that others commented that they sometimes lost him.  This dance was more stylized than technical.  They needed to be synchronized and they weren't.  As I previously posted, if viewers could have voted overnight, they might have lost because of this freestyle.  It's fine for SYTYCD and a showcase.  I think DWTS viewers want to see Wow/flashy moments in the freestyle and I don't think this dance provided that.   It was creative but also risky because judging from the response, there are a lot of people that hated it.

I thought the execution of Tanya's freestyle was amateurish.  She was beautiful and elegant in the V. Waltz.  She was energetic in this routine but clunky.  Her tumbling was nice if she was doing them in her backyard.  It bugged me that her knees were bent and her feet were flexed.  Her beginning solo where she  went across the floor was a series of poorly executed turns and leaps.  The turns that she did would look nice on the ice skating rink but looked clunky on a dance floor.  After she did a disco section, she started going in the wrong direction.  So if Tonya was somebody's mom or grandma, you would be proud to see her in an amateur show.  However, the execution was lacking for national TV. 

I'm Tonya's age and can do cartwheels in a clunky manner like she did. It really isn't that amazing. Still, hers was probably the best out of the three. Josh's was weird, and Adam's was just, no.

Josh's song was cool, though. I didn't realize that was Thirty Seconds to Mars. All my fantasies would come true if Jared Leto was on this show. LOL

[realdancemom]

11 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

I'm Tonya's age and can do cartwheels in a clunky manner like she did. It really isn't that amazing. Still, hers was probably the best out of the three. Josh's was weird, and Adam's was just, no.

Josh's song was cool, though. I didn't realize that was Thirty Seconds to Mars. All my fantasies would come true if Jared Leto was on this show. LOL

I really liked Josh's song which is another reason why his was my favorite.

[Mrs. Hanson]

3 hours ago, boyznkatz said:

Has anyone ever done an awesome freestyle and lost? I honestly don't remember, because most of the freestyles have been blah since they started doing contemporary and jazz and broadway numbers on the regular season. A few I do remember, like Cheryl and Drew's, and Peta's with Donald. Shawn Johnson's was also good (the first time she was on) and so was Alfonso's with Witney. 

I remember watching Apolo Ohno TEAR. IT. UP. during his freestyle and said to myself:  "He just won the competition."  The man learned to breakdance in a week!!

[boyznkatz]

6 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

I remember watching Apolo Ohno TEAR. IT. UP. during his freestyle and said to myself:  "He just won the competition."  The man learned to breakdance in a week!!

Apolo was the best!!!

[Toonces464]

1 hour ago, vdw84 said:

I hate to say this and may end up biting my words but I feel Val is going to hurt Jenna again and this time I dont know what she is going to do because she has her whole life revolved around him. I think deep down she knows V isnt good for her. Val likes the look of love but he doesnt know how to give love to the ones he is involved with. 

If Jenna needs help with how to let a Chmerkovskiy humiliate and then settle for you when he can't find anyone better, all she has to do is ask her future sister-in-law for tips. ;)

[ChrisMcGraan]

1 hour ago, vdw84 said:

I hate to say this and may end up biting my words but I feel Val is going to hurt Jenna again and this time I dont know what she is going to do because she has her whole life revolved around him. I think deep down she knows V isnt good for her. Val likes the look of love but he doesnt know how to give love to the ones he is involved with. 

Part of me actually thinks Jenna might be the one to end it this time. Maybe this new attention/fame will go to her head and make her realize there is more out there for her. Like a lot of younger women in Hollywood who get into relationships with older men in the biz and idolize them, I could see her wanting to test the waters more. Keep in mind, she's only like 23 or 24. 

Another part of me thinks they will go through a farce of an engagement since everyone else connected to DWTS is getting married right now.

[boyznkatz]

39 minutes ago, Toonces464 said:

If Jenna needs help with how to let a Chmerkovskiy humiliate and then settle for you when he can't find anyone better, all she has to do is ask her future sister-in-law for tips. ;)

Do you think Val is ever going to get married? If he wanted to, he could have by now. If he does get married, it probably won't be Jenna he marries. She doesn't seem like his type.

Then again, Peta doesn't seem like Maks's type either, so who knows.

[Mu Shu]

1 hour ago, boyznkatz said:

I'm Tonya's age and can do cartwheels in a clunky manner like she did. It really isn't that amazing. Still, hers was probably the best out of the three. Josh's was weird, and Adam's was just, no.

Josh's song was cool, though. I didn't realize that was Thirty Seconds to Mars. All my fantasies would come true if Jared Leto was on this show. LOL

Yeah but Josh is hot.  

[spanana]

Val has been teasing the shippers posting things regarding putting a ring on it.  I bet he does propose soon enough, if only because at this point all of his friends are married, engaged and/or have kids.  Back when Val started his nonsense, most of his boys were also single so he was surrounded by single people to party with and etc.  I'm pretty sure just about every one of his friends has settled down or is in the process of doing so, so he's about the only one left.  I'm sure he's feeling the pressure to some degree and he also seems to be wanting to build the next stage of his career out of some joint partnership with Jenna where they make appearances, teach dance classes, etc. as a package deal.  Whether it lasts is another thing, but I suspect they will wind up engaged soon.

As for Val's type, Val's type is anyone that will gladly join up with the fam ventures re: their studios and etc. and continually build his ego.

Edited May 23, 2018 by spanana

[Sister Havana]

5 hours ago, boyznkatz said:

Has anyone ever done an awesome freestyle and lost? I honestly don't remember, because most of the freestyles have been blah since they started doing contemporary and jazz and broadway numbers on the regular season. A few I do remember, like Cheryl and Drew's, and Peta's with Donald. Shawn Johnson's was also good (the first time she was on) and so was Alfonso's with Witney. 

Both Calvin & Lindsay and James & Sharna had great freestyles in Season 23. (I also loved Laurie's.)

Amy & Derek's freestyle in Season 18 was so good that I thought they might pull the upset over Meryl & Maks based on that alone.

[Toonces464]

3 hours ago, boyznkatz said:

Do you think Val is ever going to get married? If he wanted to, he could have by now. If he does get married, it probably won't be Jenna he marries. She doesn't seem like his type.

Then again, Peta doesn't seem like Maks's type either, so who knows.

Taking this to the General Gabbery thread.

[babyhouseman]

11 hours ago, boyznkatz said:

How many times have Mark and Derek done that, though? I still cringe thinking about Mark's horrible "afro-jazz" with Ally Reisman, or Derek's god-awful "bhangra" with Shawn Johnson. 

I think they were assigned those dances though. Jenna chose this. 

I have loved most of Mark's freestyles where he didn't win. To me, no other pro has his creativity.

[Zuleikha]

I know that not many people liked Adam's freestyle but it was my second favorite.  I do like Mark's and Jenna's K-Pop routine on SYTYCD.  It reminded me of that but I don't think the whole concept was completely thought out.  The music did not match the geisha theme.  Honestly, to avoid being accused of being culturally insensitive, they didn't even need to go there.  It could have just been a high tech fashion show.  The background dancers already looked like that instead of geishas.  Then Adam and Jenna could have dressed in colorful edgy costumes and the music would have matched too. 

I don't think they really did go there. "Fashion geisha" is just a shorthand phrase Jenna's choreographer used. IIRC, it was never used on the actual show. But the actual look was more futuristic sci-fi-BDSM-with-East Asian-influence. The only things that read as East Asian-inspired were the silhouettes of their robes/Adam's pants (but not the fabric) and the fans. There was nothing actually drawn from geisha tradition, which is very specific. In academic theory, cultural appropriation did not refer to this type of hybridity, which is more about cultural mixing. (Mark's afro-jazz would be a cleaner example of the academic use of cultural appropriation, but he was assigned it, so it's a bit more complicated in practice. But he was not assigned the pseudo-tribal makeup/costuming, and IMHO, should not have gone there.) Pop cultural appropriation is applied much more loosely, but personally, I think it's applied too loosely and the concept has become incoherent with some typically unacknowledged problematic implications of its own. 

The lighting was too dark especially since they didn't highlight Adam and Jenna.  I could find Adam since he was usually front and center but I know that others commented that they sometimes lost him.  This dance was more stylized than technical.  They needed to be synchronized and they weren't.

I thought the lighting was the biggest problem with the routine. I often lost Adam and Jenna, including when they were doing precise moves. I thought the dancing was well-connected to LGBTQ+ dance culture, so I got how it was meant to represent Adam. But I could barely see them. 

[realdancemom]

10 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I don't think they really did go there. "Fashion geisha" is just a shorthand phrase Jenna's choreographer used. IIRC, it was never used on the actual show. But the actual look was more futuristic sci-fi-BDSM-with-East Asian-influence. The only things that read as East Asian-inspired were the silhouettes of their robes/Adam's pants (but not the fabric) and the fans. There was nothing actually drawn from geisha tradition, which is very specific. In academic theory, cultural appropriation did not refer to this type of hybridity, which is more about cultural mixing. (Mark's afro-jazz would be a cleaner example of the academic use of cultural appropriation, but he was assigned it, so it's a bit more complicated in practice. But he was not assigned the pseudo-tribal makeup/costuming, and IMHO, should not have gone there.) Pop cultural appropriation is applied much more loosely, but personally, I think it's applied too loosely and the concept has become incoherent with some typically unacknowledged problematic implications of its own. 

I thought the lighting was the biggest problem with the routine. I often lost Adam and Jenna, including when they were doing precise moves. I thought the dancing was well-connected to LGBTQ+ dance culture, so I got how it was meant to represent Adam. But I could barely see them. 

I want to clarify that my comment on possible cultural appropriation and lighting was based on comments I've read on this forum and other social media.  I thought the lighting was a little dark but as I mentioned I could always find Adam and Jenna.  I also thought the routine represented Adam especially the death drop ending pose.   I still think the music didn't match the routine.  I'm glad that Adam and Jenna didn't do yellow face because then I would have had a problem with cultural appropriation.

[boyznkatz]

What was with their makeup and wigs, though? They were definitely going for something. What, I'm not sure.

I don't think they meant to be offensive. I just think they should have been more careful with millions of people watching the show. It's fine to be innovative, but there is a fine line between cultural appreciation and appropriation, and the pros surely know not to do anything that might be taken as offensive.

[Zuleikha]

What was with their makeup and wigs, though?

Their makeup was standard stage makeup. Their wigs were black bobs, which is not uniquely East Asian and is not at all geisha. Adam looked like a Beatle. Jenna's outfit, actually, may not have any East Asian influence at all. I rewatched, and I'm no longer sure their robes do have any East Asian influences in their shaping. Adam's pants do--the high waist is inspired by hakama, but the pants themselves are not hakama. 

[vdw84]

On 5/23/2018 at 10:40 AM, Toonces464 said:

hose two freestyles of Peta's were not done by her. Talia Favia choreographed Nyle's and believe it or not, it was Karina who did Donald's. And yes, William was definitely pimped but I never saw even the tiniest bit of Katherine being pimped. 

Damn, Im getting a feeling that most of the pros dont choreograph most of the time in their routines esp. if its outside their specialty realm ballroom but even that may be subjective. Did Lindsay choreograph any of that with Jordan her season? I know for sure their contemporary wasnt hers.

[BeeBop88]

Hello. A newbie here. I saw where you all were talking about choreography and how much the pro dancers contribute to it. This has always kinda bothered me a bit.  It doesn't bother me if they get outside help, or have someone else choreograph the dance entirely. What bothers me is how they are kinda dishonest about it and don't give credit where credit is due. Not too long ago, I remember there being a kind of dustup when Witney was nominated for an emmy for the choreography work of one of the dances that she did with Alphonso. Some dance pros were upset the real choreographer for that dance did not get a nomination along with Witney or rather than Witney. Witney remained silent until this was brought up, and then I think she did say something about another choreographer having something to do with that dance. I think that Sharna for the the most part, does her own choreography. Mark and Derek, most definitely. Even Maks and Val do their own, but I suspect they have had outside help now and then. With Witney, I have always suspected that a lot of her dances are not choreographed by her. Even though I don't care for Jenna, I do think she does choreograph and was pleased to see she did thank Talia for that bird cage dance. I think that Artem and Alan and Sasha do their own choreography, again for the most part. Emma seems like a lot of her dances are her own. And with Lindsay, while I think she is a real sweetheart and a great dancer, I am 50/50 on how much of a choreographer she really is.  I guess the outside choreographers must get paid some good money to keep their mouths shut and not say, "Hey, I choreographed that dance!" when on occasion the judges praise the pro dancers for their choreography talent. It may not mean anything, but on SYTYCD, I think it is interesting on who shows up from DWTS that choreographs a dance there and who does not.  So far, I have seen Sasha and Emma and Val and Jenna. Definitely no Witney...LOL!

And with all the above being said, I still enjoy watching DWTS and realize that not every good dancer is gonna be a good choreographer. I would just like more transparency on who choreographs what.

Edited May 27, 2018 by BeeBop88

[kitcloudkicker]

2 hours ago, BeeBop88 said:

And with all the above being said, I still enjoy watching DWTS and realize that not every good dancer is gonna be a good choreographer. I would just like more transparency on who choreographs what.

Kristyn Burtt has written a fair amount on this. It boils down to: it's not really the pro's fault, it's a problem in how the industry is set up and how DWTS works. 

https://www.dancenetwork.tv/Catalog/Post/261/its-time-to-reframe-the-choreography-question-on-dancing-with-the-stars

Usually, it seems like it works like this. 

1. Pros/dancers like to help each other out. Creatively, it gives you new ideas, and it's nice to collaborate with people you trust to keep you fresh, bounce things off of each other. It's a collaborative medium, people LIKE to work this way. Witney and Alan Salazar (the one who helped choreograph for Alphonso) have a good working relationship like this - they are friends, he taught her for a long time, he likes to help her (and Lindsey, and Mark, and Val, among others) out with choreography or co-choreography. 

2. Emmy rules state that unless this collaboration is PAID FOR BY THE SHOW, you can't put their name on the nomination.

 

3. DWTS doesn't like to pay outside choreographers for the weekly dances apparently - putting pros (and outside choreographers) that want to collaborate, in a bind. This is what happened to Witney and Alan - she tried to get him a credit, it wasn't allowed. 

 

So it's an industry-wide problem, everyone seems to be doing the best they can. Alan was interviewed on Kristyn's show, and he's well aware of the limitations, as much as he was bummed to miss out on an Emmy nom. There is also, allegedly, work going on behind the scenes for dancers and choreographers to unionize, to start to argue for more rights. 

For now, what you'll see usually is shoutouts on Instagram if you want to hunt down full credits. Alan Salazar tends to post all the dances he helps with, that's where Jenna thanked Talia and Talia posted about helping. It seems to be all they can do at the moment. 

[BeeBop88]

4 hours ago, kitcloudkicker said:

Kristyn Burtt has written a fair amount on this. It boils down to: it's not really the pro's fault, it's a problem in how the industry is set up and how DWTS works. 

https://www.dancenetwork.tv/Catalog/Post/261/its-time-to-reframe-the-choreography-question-on-dancing-with-the-stars

Usually, it seems like it works like this. 

1. Pros/dancers like to help each other out. Creatively, it gives you new ideas, and it's nice to collaborate with people you trust to keep you fresh, bounce things off of each other. It's a collaborative medium, people LIKE to work this way. Witney and Alan Salazar (the one who helped choreograph for Alphonso) have a good working relationship like this - they are friends, he taught her for a long time, he likes to help her (and Lindsey, and Mark, and Val, among others) out with choreography or co-choreography. 

2. Emmy rules state that unless this collaboration is PAID FOR BY THE SHOW, you can't put their name on the nomination.

 

3. DWTS doesn't like to pay outside choreographers for the weekly dances apparently - putting pros (and outside choreographers) that want to collaborate, in a bind. This is what happened to Witney and Alan - she tried to get him a credit, it wasn't allowed. 

 

So it's an industry-wide problem, everyone seems to be doing the best they can. Alan was interviewed on Kristyn's show, and he's well aware of the limitations, as much as he was bummed to miss out on an Emmy nom. There is also, allegedly, work going on behind the scenes for dancers and choreographers to unionize, to start to argue for more rights. 

For now, what you'll see usually is shoutouts on Instagram if you want to hunt down full credits. Alan Salazar tends to post all the dances he helps with, that's where Jenna thanked Talia and Talia posted about helping. It seems to be all they can do at the moment. 

Thanks for the explanation. I do know that Mark and Sharna did choreograph the dance that Witney did with Frankie (that Argentine Tango Pirates of the Caribbean one.)  I will have to check my IG more often for the shout outs. I always wondered in the beginning why it seemed the people over at SYTYCD gets a lot of choreo emmy nods, while the DWTS pros not so much (Derek and Julianne Hough winning and Mark Ballas, nominated.) This kinda explains why.

Edited May 27, 2018 by BeeBop88