S06.E09: Jennings, Elizabeth

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, Plums said:

So in my rewatch, when I got to part where Philip is running, it occurred to me that of course, this was always going to happen. They planned for Philip to run away from the FBI in his endgame scenario from the start. Why else would we keep getting periodic reminders that Philip maintains an ability to run over the course of the series? Even the racquetball is a cardio workout. Just another blessing in disguise that he took the meeting with Father Andrei instead of Elizabeth. I can't see her having the endurance to outrun a couple of FBI agents, especially now with all her smoking. We don't even really see her exercise at all outside of training Paige. 

 

Philip had many reasons to stay in shape, so I don't think seeing him running is a huge "so when he needs to run" thing. 

About the running though, and I meant to comment on this before so I'm glad your post reminded me of that.

When spies suspect or see that they are being followed?  The number run rule is to NOT RUN.  They are trained and trained and trained on evading followers, and also on following people.  Duck into a building slowly, all kinds of things.

The only reason a spy would break into a run is to flush out surveillance.  I think Philip just needed to KNOW for sure they were on to him/them, so he wasn't panicking at all there, he deliberately did that to make sure they were blown. 

Anyway, that's my take on that.  He's a very good spy, trained to remain calm and not panic no matter what.  The run was deliberate.  I hope we find out if I'm right about that!

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

You’re not required to do anything. You don’t have to pay dues or tithe. You’re encouraged to, but it is not required. You don’t have to do anything at all as a church member. 

It depends on the church.  To be a member in good standing in the Mormon church, be able to marry in the temple, or even visit it, for example?  You have to pay tithing.  You are required to submit to bishop's questioning, etc.

[Erin9]

@Umbelina 

I mean a Christian church, which is what Paige attended. A Mormon church is not Christian. 

[Umbelina]

53 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

@Umbelina 

I mean a Christian church, which is what Paige attended. A Mormon church is not Christian. 

Mormons are certainly Christians.  "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"  (LDS)  They follow teachings, revere him as the son of God, and pray in his name.  They also believe in the Bible, and the father/son/holy ghost.

I agree that Pastor Tim's church wouldn't require tithing to be a member, they would just keep asking for money for projects, and pass the plate around.  They would require baptism I think, as liberal as he is, I think that would be a requirement.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Erin9 said:

You’re not required to do anything. You don’t have to pay dues or tithe. You’re encouraged to, but it is not required. You don’t have to do anything at all as a church member. 

I don't know exactly what impression Stan had of him, but his relationship with them really was closer than it sounded on the phone where he sounded as if he barely interacted with them and only could say they loved their daughter. Philip arranged mission trips, Elizabeth was a regular for a while, made food for sales and pot lucks and stuffed envelopes, the Tims came to dinner at the house twice, Paige encouraged them to come to Tim's going away party because it would seem weird if they didn't. If Stan had time to check with other people at the church it would probably seem even more suspicious that he'd had no contact with them.

5 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

If they end up in a car together, it's going to be one epic "so how was your day?" 

LOL!

3 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

This is brilliant! It works perfectly for thier cover because starting in the 1970s there was a health/fitness craze that extended into the 1980s. Philip jogging around the neighborhood would not have seemed odd or out of place in the late 1970s the way it might have in the early 1960s. I'm starting a thread devoted to call backs, foreshadowing, and similiar things. 

A friend of mine asked after the ep if they'd shown Philip keeping up his dad jogging and I immediately remembered yes, not only did he always keep it up but they specifically showed him coming in from a run at Thanksgiving. The Paige scene shows that he's still fight-capable too, even if of course she wasn't a real opponent. He also was still looking for the emergency signal when Oleg first came calling. There was a reason Elizabeth was right to think they had a better chance with Philip there in Harvest.

In general, we know he's a physical guy. He also plays hockey, although we've never seen him do it, and he's a mean line-dancer!

9 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

There wasn't enough yellow and blue for it to be a Blockbuster, plus he was renting a foreign movie and they were playing a classic movie in the store. It had to be an indie type of video store. 

I noticed this at the time and really liked that attention to detail. That is, that the movie playing in the store was right for a place that would have a good foreign film selection, which is where Philip would go. Blockbuster had a foreign film section, but most people probably went there looking for more mainstream releases. Philip went to a store where plenty of customers would be renting foreign films, including Russian ones. The guy he looked like wouldn't stand out at all.

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The only reason a spy would break into a run is to flush out surveillance.  I think Philip just needed to KNOW for sure they were on to him/them, so he wasn't panicking at all there, he deliberately did that to make sure they were blown. 

Anyway, that's my take on that.  He's a very good spy, trained to remain calm and not panic no matter what.  The run was deliberate.  I hope we find out if I'm right about that!

That's how I took it at the time. He very clearly chose his time to run--I would assume he had his route planned out in advance as well. There was nothing panicked about it. He's focused. He hadn't spotted a specific person who seemed to be FBI. If there was no surveillance he would have just run, not been followed, and stopped. Flushing out surveillance was exactly what he was doing. And that was a risk that made very good sense because he needed to know if he'd just been watched and probably photographed. That was the priority. He did everything right, unlike Father Andrei!

In the context of the season that's another reason to pay close attention to the many times Paige loses her head. Of course she doesn't have Philip's experience, but it's more extreme than that. Even when not spying he's got the mindset of a spy behind enemy lines, which he is.

[Erin9]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Mormons are certainly Christians.  "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"  (LDS)

I agree that Pastor Tim's church wouldn't require tithing to be a member, they would just keep asking for money for projects, and pass the plate around.  They would require baptism I think, as liberal as he is, I think that would be a requirement.

We will have to agree to disagree. It is not. At all. I would no sooner step into a Mormon church for worship than I would a synagogue or a mosque. As a Protestant, while I may not be catholic, Episcopal, or orthodox Christian, I would walk into the church even though that is not my worship style. 

[Plums]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Philip had many reasons to stay in shape, so I don't think seeing him running is a huge "so when he needs to run" thing. 

Well, there's a lot of ways to stay in shape that don't emphasize an ability to run. We didn't see Philip lifting weights or doing pushups or anything. 

 

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The only reason a spy would break into a run is to flush out surveillance.  I think Philip just needed to KNOW for sure they were on to him/them, so he wasn't panicking at all there, he deliberately did that to make sure they were blown. 

 

That's really interesting, and it makes complete sense. If he thought he was being surveilled at all by the FBI, there's no point at all in just shaking them subtly and going about his business. In Philip's case, if they're surveilling them, then they have pictures, and if they have pictures, the jig is up. So obviously he had to get away in such a way where he'd know they were there, rather than just losing them by ducking into a building and disappearing. It's interesting that the FBI isn't trained not to give chase to counter that tactic. If they have surveillance photos of someone, better to not let a suspect know that. 

[jjj]

36 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

When spies suspect or see that they are being followed?  The number run rule is to NOT RUN.  They are trained and trained and trained on evading followers, and also on following people.  Duck into a building slowly, all kinds of things.

The only reason a spy would break into a run is to flush out surveillance.  I think Philip just needed to KNOW for sure they were on to him/them, so he wasn't panicking at all there, he deliberately did that to make sure they were blown. 

I said something like this early in the thread -- that Philip suspected Andrei was under surveillance, and the only way to find out if he also was being followed was to run and see what happened.  He looked back when he got to the corner, and then tossed his hat.  Thanks for pointing out that they would assume that all other points of contact were contaminated. 

They must have always had a plan for GTFO with Henry and Paige when they were little -- and like a will, I would assume they would update the plan(s) as their circumstances changed.  I would have thought the biggest objection to Henry going to boarding school is that they would not be able to extract him quickly.  

I said a week or two ago that the film "Running on Empty" is a great example of a family living with the constant threat of needing to leave on a moment's notice and start all over again (because of fugitive status).  Great film, and makes us see the impact on children to be uprooted without any possessions -- or dog.  :(  

[jjj]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh yeah, I definitely thought he was making that us vs. them distinction. There's probably a lot of meanings to it. On one hand he's being smart to distance himself and the church from them. They're not members of the church. He didn't work with him. His church isn't working with them. He wouldn't know about them being spies. It was just their kid who came to his church without her parents. 

What Pastor Tim did is what clever students do when they do not know the answer to a question:  they answer a different question.  ("What were the taxes that led to so much friction between the colonies and Britain?"  "The imperialistic impulse and conflict with Native Americans was a key factor in the colonial period, and let me tell you why...")  "Is there anything I should know, as an FBI agent, about the Jennings family?"  "Philip and Elizabeth weren't members of the church, but I know they loved Paige."  Because you are asking about how Paige interacted with them, right, Stan?  (boldface via Stan!)

Edited May 27, 2018 by jjj

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

pretty sure that's not a thing any church would do. The only thing official membership requirements as far as I'm aware, is paying dues/tithing. 

 

So in my rewatch, when I got to part where Philip is running, it occurred to me that of course, this was always going to happen. They planned for Philip to run away from the FBI in his endgame scenario from the start. Why else would we keep getting periodic reminders that Philip maintains an ability to run over the course of the series? Even the racquetball is a cardio workout. Just another blessing in disguise that he took the meeting with Father Andrei instead of Elizabeth. I can't see her having the endurance to outrun a couple of FBI agents, especially now with all her smoking. We don't even really see her exercise at all outside of training Paige. 

Now I'm trying to think of all the other seemingly innocuous, series long foreshadowing I may have missed but will make whatever happens in the finale seem obvious in hindsight. 

Maybe, it's a regional thing or certain denominations, but, many churches do have their members vetted. I recently looked into it for the United Methodist Church. I thought they were liberal, but, they have a lot of requirements.  The pastor inquires about the potential member, looks into their background, Baptism history. (you will need to produce certificate if you claim to already by baptized), need letter from previous church or a statement from you as to your faith, personal testimony and intentions. It's not just rubber stamped.  And, I know that LDS and Catholic Church require classes. I've had friends join both as adults. 

But, my point was that Pastor Tim seemed to be distancing himself from a duty to know more.  Of course, as a minister, it's hard to argue that he was right in doing nothing when he thought that Paige was suffering so emotionally. 

[hellmouse]

44 minutes ago, jjj said:

They must have always had a plan for GTFO with Henry and Paige when they were little -- and like a will, I would assume they would update the plan(s) as their circumstances changed.  I would have thought the biggest objection to Henry going to boarding school is that they would not be able to extract him quickly.  

I said a week or two ago that the film "Running on Empty" is a great example of a family living with the constant threat of needing to leave on a moment's notice and start all over again (because of fugitive status).  Great film, and makes us see the impact on children to be uprooted without any possessions -- or dog.  :(  

That is such a good movie. So moving. I've been thinking about that one a lot - the last scene in particular - as to how it might compare to the end of The Americans. But the one thing advantage they had in the movie is that it was only the FBI after them. The Jenningses have the KGB too. Yikes.

[jjj]

13 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

But the one thing advantage they had in the movie is that it was only the FBI after them. The Jenningses have the KGB too. Yikes.

Indeed, the Jennings have only what Elizabeth stuffed into the gym bag and themselves.  That is not much of a support system with two super-agencies on their trail.  

[JennyMominFL]

9 hours ago, GussieK said:

Ditto. I'm the one who purchased episode 8 on iTunes and watched on my phone so I could see it while in London last week. I was annoyed that I had to wait until after it aired in the Pacific time zone!  I actually considered face timing with my friend in NYC so she could aim the phone at the TV. LOL. I swear I am really not this crazy about any other show!  

I’m sorry for going off topic. I travel a lot and will be in the UK for a month this fall. .. so you are saying you can buy the shows on iTunes as soon as they air?

Edited May 27, 2018 by JennyMominFL

[JennyMominFL]

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

@Umbelina 

I mean a Christian church, which is what Paige attended. A Mormon church is not Christian. 

Wow. I’m just going to keep my mouth shut right now as this is the wrong place 

Edited May 27, 2018 by JennyMominFL

[lazylou]

17 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

That is such a good movie. So moving. I've been thinking about that one a lot - the last scene in particular - as to how it might compare to the end of The Americans. But the one thing advantage they had in the movie is that it was only the FBI after them. The Jenningses have the KGB too. Yikes.

One big difference between the two stories is that in "Running On Empty" the kids know the family is on the run and why. The Jennings' waited too long to tell Henry the truth.  I think Henry will not want to leave the country if his parents get to him before the Feds.  He may go because he is smart enough to see the life he had planned is impossible. Paige may well be looking forward to seeing Russia after Claudia's film festival.  River Phoenix's character in "Running on Empty" left his family in order to follow his own dreams, and he does so, finally, with the collusion of his mother.  Maybe Henry will stay in the US  with his parents permission and Stan's collusion.

[EtheltoTillie]

14 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

I’m sorry for going off topic. I travel a lot and will be in the USA for a month this fall. .. so you are saying you can buy the shows on iTunes as soon as they air?

It's not as soon as they air.  As best as I can understand, it's after they air in all US time zones.   I have only done this three times, all three times I was OUT of the US, where intellectual property restrictions kept me from accessing my home cable network.  If you are in the US and want to watch US shows, you should be able to find other ways to watch them, including hotel TVs. 

[JennyMominFL]

1 minute ago, GussieK said:

It's not as soon as they air.  As best as I can understand, it's after they air in all US time zones.   I have only done this three times, all three times I was OUT of the US, where intellectual property restrictions kept me from accessing my home cable network.  If you are in the US and want to watch US shows, you should be able to find other ways to watch them, including hotel TVs. 

Sorry, my predictive text changed UK to USA. I’ll be in London and other parts of the Uk and maybe Portugal. I have come up with several ways to watch USA shows while away, but this is a new one, I’m not sure why I tunes didn’t occur to me

[Cardie]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

How do you detect all those places when they are rented from private citizens?

The explanation Aderholt gave was that rent payments tended to be in cash and one person would rent a number of houses in this way. So they cross-referenced cash payments and renters of multiple properties and started the process of elimination from there.

[Dev F]

On 5/25/2018 at 12:57 PM, sistermagpie said:

I just don't see any story where Claudia is doing one thing and Elizabeth is undoing it.

It's not that Elizabeth was undoing anything. She just wasn't doing enough to reinforce Claudia's efforts. She's happy for Claudia to talk about Tchaikovsky's tragic childhood or the Soviet war dead, and she'll just shift uncomfortably when Claudia talks about selling her body for food, but when Paige comes to her basically begging for the same kind of frankness about their actual espionage work, she spreads dismissive lies instead.

I understand that my read on this is not totally intuitive. But I'm confident that the writers would not have named the second episode "Tchaikovsky" if it's just a reference to some nice music and a benign history lesson; ever since the series transitioned from procedural stories to more thematic stories after season 1, its episode titles have always been more meaningful than that. I also don't think the writers would've continued the Tchaikovsky record over the Liz/Paige honeytrap conversation if those two scenes were not supposed to be either in parallel or counterpoint. And, again, I don't think it's meaningless that when Paige finally blows up at Elizabeth about her honeytrapping lies, Elizabeth herself argues that the reason Paige wouldn't understand the truth is because she doesn't appreciate the Soviets' background of suffering and tragedy that Claudia was trying to impress on her all along.

Quote

There's no scene where Claudia expresses any particular faith in Paige as a trainee that I remember. She never says anything to Elizabeth about Paige needing a clearer view even when asking what she wants to do for the next meeting.

Because she never doubted that Elizabeth would ultimately get there with Paige. "You'll be fine, Elizabeth. Both of you will." It's not until Liz betrays the Nesterenko mission that it even occurs to her that Elizabeth won't ultimately come through. And it's only then that she sneers about how their time with Paige will be for nothing. To me the implication is pretty clear -- until that point, she didn't think they were tilting at windmills with Paige, and only Elizabeth's "betrayal" has doomed her to life as a hopeless American child.

 

But changing subjects now to another potential reading that's not totally intuitive . . . I mentioned in the episode thread for "The Summit" that I was wondering whether the painting Elizabeth fixated on was meant to represent something more specific than "older maternal figure." I'm wondering now if the reason why I couldn't identify a specific reference is because we hadn't been introduced to it yet:

It may not be an intentional reference; perhaps the connection is simply because both the painting and the instructor were supposed to evoke Elizabeth's mother. But it's also quite possible that while Elizabeth was murdering people left and right and running herself ragged for the sake of a shady secret mission, she found herself haunted by the image of the disapproving instructor who insisted that you can't blindly follow orders if it means losing sight of who you are.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Dev F

[SunnyBeBe]

1 minute ago, Cardie said:

The explanation Aderholt gave was that rent payments tended to be in cash and one person would rent a number of houses in this way. So they cross-referenced cash payments and renters of multiple properties and started the process of elimination from there.

Right.  That is what he said, but, it makes no sense to me.  What kind of city-wide data base would there have to be to see the bank accounts of all landlords of garages? I'm buying it, because we have no choice, but, it makes no sense to me, as they would be examining bank records that they would have to get from bank personnel at multiple banks and need search warrants, based on what? Plus, these landlords would know if they are asked to see their bank records and so there are bank personnel, landlords, secretaries, accountants, etc.  who know what is being explored.....but, yet no one knows...  IDK....I guess it sounded good on paper. 

[EtheltoTillie]

9 minutes ago, Cardie said:

The explanation Aderholt gave was that rent payments tended to be in cash and one person would rent a number of houses in this way. So they cross-referenced cash payments and renters of multiple properties and started the process of elimination from there.

There would be no way to track these rentals, however.  I think they had to do a laborious search of advertisements for rentals and the like. 

[Cardie]

1 minute ago, GussieK said:

I think they had to do a laborious search of advertisements for rentals and the like.

From the boxes of papers the agents were going through, it was clear how laboriousthis methodology would be. That's why they haven't scooped up Claudia days ago. Because the FBI also obtains safe houses, they may have pretty good instincts for spotting one.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Paige was not really a person who can handle certain information. 

Paige is the person who asks questions she doesn't really want to know the answers to. Another reason she's a terrible spy.

[Dev F]

25 minutes ago, Cardie said:

From the boxes of papers the agents were going through, it was clear how laboriousthis methodology would be. That's why they haven't scooped up Claudia days ago. Because the FBI also obtains safe houses, they may have pretty good instincts for spotting one.

Yep. Plus, I think some of the FBI methods are getting mixed together:

1. They identified garages by finding sites "that match the kind of places we tracked Harvest to in Chicago." They then "cleared" most of them through unspecified means -- presumably by determining that they were rented by legitimate entities -- and are keeping an eye on the rest of them. We know that they secured FISA warrants for eleven of them, so presumably they obtained some additional evidence that they were espionage-related.

2. They sought to identify safehouses by checking utility records for accounts paid in advance. We're not updated on the progress, but by this episode, they had a number of "suspected safehouses" that they were also keeping an eye on.

3. They planned to identify cars by tracking down used vehicles purchased with cash. This would be done by looking up the registration of every vehicle in the area advertised in the classified ads and similar sources over the past ten years and flagging any suspicious names. Last we heard, these efforts had not yet produced any hits.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Dev F

[SunnyBeBe]

So with the safe houses, they would have to obtain copies of leases in order to know when the money is due and how much is paid.  A private renter may pay the landlord $5000. in January, but, that could be for one month, 3 months or a year.  So,. basically, they would have to ask every landlord in the city how their rentals were paid for their houses, offices or apartments, then get copies of leases, checks, .....it's beyond monumental in hours, regardless of how many staff members they have and with all the people that would be involved, questioned, etc.  it would not be a well kept secret. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[EtheltoTillie]

10 minutes ago, Dev F said:

 

2. They sought to identify safehouses by checking utility records for accounts paid in cash. We're not updated on the progress, but by this episode, they had a number of "suspected safehouses" that they were also keeping an eye on.

 

This one is a real needle in a haystack.  Many people pay their utility bills in cash.  It's quite typical of people who don't have lots of money and don't have checking accounts.  Especially in the eighties.  They'd go the utility company and stand in line and pay after cashing their paychecks.  I happen to live right near the office of our cable company.  I still see people standing in line to pay their bill in cash. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by GussieK

[Dev F]

1 minute ago, GussieK said:

This one is a real needle in a haystack.  Many people pay their utility bills in cash.  It's quite typical of people who don't have lots of money and don't have checking accounts.  Especially in the eighties.  They'd go the utility company and stand in line and pay.  I happen to live right near the office of our cable company.  I still see people standing in line to pay their bill in cash. 

My mistake; I'm getting everything mixed up too! The utility bills were paid in advance, not in cash, which presumably would be a more unusual practice.

[JennyMominFL]

2 minutes ago, GussieK said:

This one is a real needle in a haystack.  Many people pay their utility bills in cash.  It's quite typical of people who don't have lots of money and don't have checking accounts.  Especially in the eighties.  They'd go the utility company and stand in line and pay.  I happen to live right near the office of our cable company.  I still see people standing in line to pay their bill in cash. 

I remember in the 90s , when I was young and poor paying my utilities in the grocery store. They had a counter for it. Check cashing places also had utility paying options. Yeah, that will be difficult for the FBI to trace

[EtheltoTillie]

Calling @Bannon!  This FBI sequence is a writing failure.

Edited May 28, 2018 by GussieK
I figured out how to tag someone.

[SunnyBeBe]

Okay.  Paying utility bills in advance in cash would be easier to obtain.  I can accept that one  Still, a huge undertaking. It would seem that the illegals would know that that kind of thing would make them stand out though and so they wouldn't do it.  ???

The thing is that they had to have some way to have the FBI zoom in on the illegals and cut them off at every turn.  So, I guess someone got that assignment and that's the best they could do.  

But, I'm not sure they really had to discover the garages and safe houses.  P has hit the panic button to run, just assuming that all is blown. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Dowel Jones]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Whoosh! Right over my head! LOL As my kids say, I don't know much about sportskaball.

I wasn't poking fun at you, by the way.  For explanation, a no-hitter is extremely difficult to pitch at the professional level.  It's an unwritten rule in baseball that you don't mention it to the pitcher in the late stages of the game, because he will then blow it.  It was also a reference to Philip and Elizabeth's career, in that they've made it this far, almost to the end, and now they (or some of their team) have blown it.  Just having fun with the discussion.

[jjj]

Research -- the many houses and garages and cars -- is often a needle-in-the-haystack situation.  But the reason we do it is because if we are on the right track, there will be a needle.  It takes a nose, and then takes relentless grueling work to find it.  And you toss out 100,000 strands of hay to get to the one needle you hope is there.  And they are on the right track, just have to hit the right haystack, then the needle in it.  They have more manpower, so are saving some years of work to get there more quickly with more workers.   (I do other research, not government work!) 

Edited May 28, 2018 by jjj

[JennyMominFL]

5 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

But only if the opposing pitcher has a no-hitter going in the 8th inning...

No hitter.. No Hitter. No hitter

[duVerre]

1 hour ago, GussieK said:

It's not as soon as they air.  As best as I can understand, it's after they air in all US time zones.   I have only done this three times, all three times I was OUT of the US, where intellectual property restrictions kept me from accessing my home cable network.  If you are in the US and want to watch US shows, you should be able to find other ways to watch them, including hotel TVs. 

I watch on iTunes from Canada. The episode goes up Thursday mornings at 9 EST for  $3.49 (Canadian) an episode, which I reckon is $2 and change in U.S. dollars. Significant upside: no commercials. Just darkness for about three seconds, and you're back in action. And of course, you own the episode forever.  

Edited May 28, 2018 by duVerre
grammar queen

[SlovakPrincess]

12 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I agree that keeping secrets may be destructive, but, from what we have seen with E and Paige, it seems that E knew that Paige was not really a person who can handle certain information.  Paige claims that she is incensed over being lied to, but, to me, if the honey trapping was explained to her earlier, she would STILL have had a blowup and acted all righteous about how that isn't right. She's always seemed to be too sensitive and highly moralistic, imo. Demanding to know the truth, when she couldn't handle it.   So, sharing all is not likely to help her, but, upset and depress her, sending her back into a bad mind state. 

 

 

 

Paige is definitely someone who thinks she wants the truth and wants complete honesty.  But she wasn't equipped to hear the truth years ago (what teenager would be ok hearing that??), and she definitely doesn't want to hear the gritty, not-so-noble side of what she's trying to devote herself to now.   She's been tuning out Philip, who's been trying to get her to think (albeit in a passive aggressive kind of way), and accepting anything Elizabeth and Claudia tell her, even if it's probably too good to be true.  

It's not really the fact that Elizabeth lied to her -- it's the fact that she doesn't like what she's finally realizing.  She was never going to be okay with the idea of honey trapping.  She's never going to be ok with the fact that there's also a fair amount of murder involved here (which is obviously a much bigger moral problem than all the sex and ruining a young intern's career), if she ever figures that out.  Not that she should be ok with it, but she clearly wanted to believe that her spying wouldn't be so different from the high ideals of her missionary and political work with the church. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by SlovakPrincess

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Dowel Jones said:

I wasn't poking fun at you, by the way.  For explanation, a no-hitter is extremely difficult to pitch at the professional level.  It's an unwritten rule in baseball that you don't mention it to the pitcher in the late stages of the game, because he will then blow it.  It was also a reference to Philip and Elizabeth's career, in that they've made it this far, almost to the end, and now they (or some of their team) have blown it.  Just having fun with the discussion.

I was poking fun at myself too, so it would have been perfectly fine for you to poke fun at me. I was having fun too. :) Nice reference, btw. It did truly go over my head. :)

3 hours ago, jjj said:

What Pastor Tim did is what clever students do when they do not know the answer to a question:  they answer a different question.  ("What were the taxes that led to so much friction between the colonies and Britain?"  "The imperialistic impulse and conflict with Native Americans was a key factor in the colonial period, and let me tell you why...")  "Is there anything I should know, as an FBI agent, about the Jennings family?"  "Philip and Elizabeth weren't members of the church, but I know they loved Paige."  Because you are asking about how Paige interacted with them, right, Stan?  (boldface via Stan!)

 

Also...politicians.

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Maybe, it's a regional thing or certain denominations, but, many churches do have their members vetted. I recently looked into it for the United Methodist Church. I thought they were liberal, but, they have a lot of requirements.  The pastor inquires about the potential member, looks into their background, Baptism history. (you will need to produce certificate if you claim to already by baptized), need letter from previous church or a statement from you as to your faith, personal testimony and intentions. It's not just rubber stamped.  And, I know that LDS and Catholic Church require classes. I've had friends join both as adults. 

But, my point was that Pastor Tim seemed to be distancing himself from a duty to know more.  Of course, as a minister, it's hard to argue that he was right in doing nothing when he thought that Paige was suffering so emotionally. 

It must be regional. I joined the United Methodist Church here on the west coast with a minor interview (in which I actually said I was iffy on the divinity of Christ), and no baptismal papers or anything else. They had a class for new members to take, but it was a pretty high level overview of the origins of the church. Both of the churches I was a member of were pretty liberal. I do understand they are far more conservative in the South and maybe the North East(?) As I understand it (I'm no longer a member) the church is very divided and nearly broke apart a year or two ago.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

58 minutes ago, Dev F said:

It's not that Elizabeth was undoing anything. She just wasn't doing enough to reinforce Claudia's efforts. She's happy for Claudia to talk about Tchaikovsky's tragic childhood or the Soviet war dead, and she'll just shift uncomfortably when Claudia talks about selling her body for food, but when Paige comes to her basically begging for the same kind of frankness about their actual espionage work, she spreads dismissive lies instead.

I think you may actually be getting through to me on this subject--so bear with me while I try to work through it. It might take a while! (I do touch on a lot of past episodes but it still seems to belong in this thread because it all came to a head here.) Reading these posts I think I do see what you're seeing (and I didn't see it until reading your posts so thank you!).

I think the reason I didn't see it before was I don't quite see it as being about teaching about spying. It's more just who they are. They're slightly different things. So, for instance, when I think of who's tried to prepare Paige for the uglier parts of spying at least a little I think of neither Claudia nor Elizabeth--I think of Philip. He deals with that aspect so directly that it's hard to think of anyone else more committed to it (not that he's that committed himself). He's the one who tries to talk to her about seeing horrible things, tries to lead her to the obvious fact that the General was murdered and warns her against thinking her fighting techniques make her invincible.

But here's where I think I am getting the truth of what you're saying, I just see it slightly differently.

 

58 minutes ago, Dev F said:

And, again, I don't think it's meaningless that when Paige finally blows up at Elizabeth about her honeytrapping lies, Elizabeth herself argues that the reason Paige wouldn't understand the truth is because she doesn't appreciate the Soviets' background of suffering and tragedy that Claudia was trying to impress on her all along.

One of the things that seem central to Claudia and Elizabeth after this ep is that they're not from the same generation and ultimately they have different lives and povs. Claudia says in this ep that Elizabeth reminded her of women she fought with in the war. From S1 on Claudia was trying to create in Elizabeth the women she fought with in the war--a war Elizabeth did not live through as an adult. Claudia's life has left her estranged from her family and without a husband. She's a genuine hardliner who puts the past above all else. Elizabeth, ultimately, is not. She often feels she should be, but her true instinct is toward her husband and family in ways Claudia's isn't.

So thinking that way, if we look at the Tchaikovsky scene again, Claudia is relating his loneliness to beautiful music and also associating him with healing after the war--the dominating traits of her life. Claudia has fully embraced loneliness and defines herself and the USSR by the war.  It's true that Claudia is glorifying a life of isolation and suffering and I think she's doing it because she's being given an opportunity to talk about her country and her Cause and this is her doing it. To understand Claudia you have to understand Tchaikovsky.

Likewise, when Claudia tells Paige about sex for food I don't thinks it's primarily because she thinks it's important for understanding spy life. She's saying it because this is the time of her life and the behavior she's most defined by and proud of. Likewise I think Elizabeth instinctively choosing a sex story that shields Paige from the uglier side of her life without consciously realizing she's doing that. She chose the story Paige would relate to most easily. (Claudia's story is harsher, but Paige takes it as a joke.)

If Paige had more of Claudia's attitude she would absolutely be more suited to spying, but looking back I think the whole idea that these scenes are about teaching was an illusion. They're more about three different women from three different generations expressing themselves and mistakenly assuming they all get it. Claudia celebrates Tchaikovsky's loneliness and Elizabeth celebrates constant fighting to combat fear. Paige's perspective is nothing like either.

It's in later eps like Harvest and now Jennings, Elizabeth that we see just how central loneliness is to *Paige*. But far from being something she's embraced via Claudia, it's her biggest fear--and I don't think there's anything Elizabeth could have done about that because Paige will never look at her mother and see a life of suffering and loneliness. Her mother has Philip.

As I said before, looking back at the series now that's always been the thing Paige seems most fascinated with: her parents' marriage. She wants that intimacy, just as she admitted to Elizabeth in Harvest. She doesn't want to be Tchaikovsky (who I believe was gay so specifically denied a happy love life). On the contrary, she's gotten it into her head that this life is the ticket to true love because that's the example she grew up with. Nothing Claudia could say could destroy that idea.

That even puts Paige's comments on Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears in a different context. The main character reminds her of her mother because she's so strong, but she has problems with love interest. Perhaps not, as it first seemed, because she thinks it's better for the woman to just run the factory as a feminist, but because he wasn't Paige's idea of a dream partner. If Elizabeth is like the MC, the man is not like Philip because Philip never puts Elizabeth in her place.

Really, if you look back, so much of the stuff Paige is interested in in S6 is about romance: Brian the intern, the guy in the bar, the sex talk with Claudia and Elizabeth, the questions about the book about honeytrapping, the convo in Harvest, the confrontation here. When Paige herself raises an issue it's almost always about romance or sex.

I don't think either Claudia or Elizabeth understood how central this was to Paige enough to be specifically warning her against it. How could they be when both of them have always put other things above romance? (Or at least tried to in Elizabeth's case.) Faced with Paige's intern, Claudia might have been more open about the benefits of honeytrapping, but I'm honestly not sure that would have been a good thing. It seems like Paige was turned off by how open her mother actually was about it after all. She was angry that Elizabeth lied about it, but also offended that Elizabeth thought she slept with Brian to get info. Iow, when Paige said, "Why would I sleep with him if I didn't like him?" she seriously thought the idea was insulting. It's the thing that both fascinates her and scares her. She thought it was *weird* that her mother acted like honeypotting was an issue even after reading the book. Like it freaked Paige out, maybe.

So I guess ultimately the only place I differ is I think it's less about Claudia having a different strategy or teaching style and more just Claudia being different role model than Elizabeth. She doesn't have Elizabeth's sensitivity about shielding Paige from the ugly sides of the work. She's fulfilled by work alone and turns any pain or loneliness or suffering into a good thing. She's dedicated to a USSR and a world that is completely foreign to Paige. And one that Elizabeth doesn't see the way she does.

But she's also totally different from Paige and was never going to influence her in this way. She just had very little to offer when it came to Paige's own interests.

I agree she didn't ever think they were tilting at windmills with Paige. She was an American willing to work for the USSR so she was already a success. Elizabeth did doom her to a life as a hopeless American child by her betrayal--but I still don't get the impression that this meant Claudia had a true vision of a Russian Paige in her head. Just a person who would have been worth something because she was helping the Cause. I think "American" here didn't mean as opposed to Russian but as an embodiment of a pointless life so common in the west.

[Colleenna]

On 5/25/2018 at 7:02 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, that's funny about that wig slip.  It must be that P and E are professionals.  Tatianna just didn't know what she was doing. lol

Wig adhesive. P&E would know this;  Tatiana, because she is not field, would not. 

[kokapetl]

10 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Okay.  Paying utility bills in advance in cash would be easier to obtain.  I can accept that one  Still, a huge undertaking. It would seem that the illegals would know that that kind of thing would make them stand out though and so they wouldn't do it.  ???

The thing is that they had to have some way to have the FBI zoom in on the illegals and cut them off at every turn.  So, I guess someone got that assignment and that's the best they could do.  

But, I'm not sure they really had to discover the garages and safe houses.  P has hit the panic button to run, just assuming that all is blown. 

All of the needle in a haystack stuff is basically impossible, and some of it is so pointless I don’t know why the FBI would waste time on it. The cars bought with cash were done so using fake/stolen names and addresses. They aren’t going to be where they’re supposed to be. 

But all of the scrutinizing of cash sales is irrelevant, because the Jennings have been exposed due to a tiff between two egotistical priests. 

[calpurnia99]

When I was a freshman in college in 1979, I was fortunate enough to be one of only 10 students selected to take a Public Speaking course with 10 Russian students and 10 American students. These Russian students were so great. My dad, very seriously, told me to get all their names and addresses, in case something ever happened, it could prove useful to us, to have friends in Russia. I thought it was a little crazy at the time but really he was nervous about us getting into a war with the Russians.  But I kept going around telling everyone, that the Russians were people just like us! I would say: I don't understand the Cold War, the Russians I know well now are very wonderful people! Why are we supposed to hate them? I just wanted to add a personal anecdote about the scary atmosphere exemplified by my dad's request, as well as how in my youth I understood that all people of the world wanted the same things.  I got that. Now come on Stan!

Also this show reminded me of when I was a member of CISPES, which the Pastor Tim (I lamost wrote tim tom) had a pamphlet in his desk when Paige was snooping around: Citizens in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador. This was a huge thing on our campus in 1980-1982.

[SunnyBeBe]

10 hours ago, Colleenna said:

Wig adhesive. P&E would know this;  Tatiana, because she is not field, would not. 

Plus, the directors must have wanted the viewers to be able to recognize Tatiana when she hit the ground.  If her wig stayed on, many might not.  In fact, I wasn't quite sure who she was until I read it here.  lol I knew that I recognized her, but, couldn't believe my eyes. 

[duVerre]

10 hours ago, Colleenna said:

Wig adhesive. P&E would know this;  Tatiana, because she is not field, would not. 

Re Tatiana's wig falling off: I also doubt that the Center had enough notice to get her a well-fitted one.

In addition, no one would be interacting with her at close range, so a well-fitted and thoroughly convincing wig wouldn't be necessary.

[Erin9]

24 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Plus, the directors must have wanted the viewers to be able to recognize Tatiana when she hit the ground.  If her wig stayed on, many might not.  In fact, I wasn't quite sure who she was until I read it here.  lol I knew that I recognized her, but, couldn't believe my eyes. 

Exactly. I laughed when the wig just came off because they seem to be super glued to Philip and Elizabeth. I think the main purpose of it sliding off was to make sure we knew who was dead. And it still took me a few seconds for it to click in. I was so surprised.

I’m not sure the fact the wig slid off has as much to do with Tatiana’s lack of field work, the time crunch, or the fact that it was supposed to be one short mission as it did them wanting us to know who was dead. 

I think the preview showed Tatiana ranting to and/or about Oleg. So I guess I should have been more prepared to see her. But- I thought those scenes had been more about him than her. Instead it was more a preparation for where they were taking her character. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Erin9

[SunnyBeBe]

What was Tatiana's current position/job?  I mean, besides assassin? lol

[kokapetl]

32 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

What was Tatiana's current position/job?  I mean, besides assassin? lol

Wasn’t it the “same job she had five years ago”? I think she was Directorate S boss at the Washington Rezidentura five years earlier. Actually not a bad job, but she was an ambitious Soviet yuppie.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Kokapetl

[Erin9]

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

What was Tatiana's current position/job?  I mean, besides assassin? lol

Lol- Arkady’s old job, I think. The Rezident. She runs the Rezidentura in the US. 

I know she didn’t get that job in Africa, I think. But this seems to be a pretty nice position. Probably one of the prized ones.

[SunnyBeBe]

Yes.  I found this helpful. 

http://theamericans.wikia.com/wiki/Tatiana_Vyazemtseva

Edited May 28, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Plums]

From the implication of that one scene with her in the Rezidentura, I assumed the guy she was ranting about Oleg to, who said they needed evidence and commiserated with her over people in the organization who got there by some sort of privilege were ruining it, was the new Rezident after Arkady was PNGed, and that he shared her hardliner sympathies. She may have been Deputy Rezident, which is what Arkady was early season 1 under Vasili. She told Oleg she was in the same position she had been in when he was there, but she may have been lying to him because that whole confrontation was her trying to manipulate him into admitting he committed treason. 

[kokapetl]

29 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Lol- Arkady’s old job, I think. The Rezident. She runs the Rezidentura in the US. 

I know she didn’t get that job in Africa, I think. But this seems to be a pretty nice position. Probably one of the prized ones.

I think all the western country posts were nice. 

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think you may actually be getting through to me on this subject--so bear with me while I try to work through it. It might take a while! (I do touch on a lot of past episodes but it still seems to belong in this thread because it all came to a head here.) Reading these posts I think I do see what you're seeing (and I didn't see it until reading your posts so thank you!).

I think the reason I didn't see it before was I don't quite see it as being about teaching about spying. It's more just who they are. They're slightly different things. So, for instance, when I think of who's tried to prepare Paige for the uglier parts of spying at least a little I think of neither Claudia nor Elizabeth--I think of Philip. He deals with that aspect so directly that it's hard to think of anyone else more committed to it (not that he's that committed himself). He's the one who tries to talk to her about seeing horrible things, tries to lead her to the obvious fact that the General was murdered and warns her against thinking her fighting techniques make her invincible.

But here's where I think I am getting the truth of what you're saying, I just see it slightly differently.

 

One of the things that seem central to Claudia and Elizabeth after this ep is that they're not from the same generation and ultimately they have different lives and povs. Claudia says in this ep that Elizabeth reminded her of women she fought with in the war. From S1 on Claudia was trying to create in Elizabeth the women she fought with in the war--a war Elizabeth did not live through as an adult. Claudia's life has left her estranged from her family and without a husband. She's a genuine hardliner who puts the past above all else. Elizabeth, ultimately, is not. She often feels she should be, but her true instinct is toward her husband and family in ways Claudia's isn't.

So thinking that way, if we look at the Tchaikovsky scene again, Claudia is relating his loneliness to beautiful music and also associating him with healing after the war--the dominating traits of her life. Claudia has fully embraced loneliness and defines herself and the USSR by the war.  It's true that Claudia is glorifying a life of isolation and suffering and I think she's doing it because she's being given an opportunity to talk about her country and her Cause and this is her doing it. To understand Claudia you have to understand Tchaikovsky.

Likewise, when Claudia tells Paige about sex for food I don't thinks it's primarily because she thinks it's important for understanding spy life. She's saying it because this is the time of her life and the behavior she's most defined by and proud of. Likewise I think Elizabeth instinctively choosing a sex story that shields Paige from the uglier side of her life without consciously realizing she's doing that. She chose the story Paige would relate to most easily. (Claudia's story is harsher, but Paige takes it as a joke.)

If Paige had more of Claudia's attitude she would absolutely be more suited to spying, but looking back I think the whole idea that these scenes are about teaching was an illusion. They're more about three different women from three different generations expressing themselves and mistakenly assuming they all get it. Claudia celebrates Tchaikovsky's loneliness and Elizabeth celebrates constant fighting to combat fear. Paige's perspective is nothing like either.

It's in later eps like Harvest and now Jennings, Elizabeth that we see just how central loneliness is to *Paige*. But far from being something she's embraced via Claudia, it's her biggest fear--and I don't think there's anything Elizabeth could have done about that because Paige will never look at her mother and see a life of suffering and loneliness. Her mother has Philip.

As I said before, looking back at the series now that's always been the thing Paige seems most fascinated with: her parents' marriage. She wants that intimacy, just as she admitted to Elizabeth in Harvest. She doesn't want to be Tchaikovsky (who I believe was gay so specifically denied a happy love life). On the contrary, she's gotten it into her head that this life is the ticket to true love because that's the example she grew up with. Nothing Claudia could say could destroy that idea.

That even puts Paige's comments on Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears in a different context. The main character reminds her of her mother because she's so strong, but she has problems with love interest. Perhaps not, as it first seemed, because she thinks it's better for the woman to just run the factory as a feminist, but because he wasn't Paige's idea of a dream partner. If Elizabeth is like the MC, the man is not like Philip because Philip never puts Elizabeth in her place.

Really, if you look back, so much of the stuff Paige is interested in in S6 is about romance: Brian the intern, the guy in the bar, the sex talk with Claudia and Elizabeth, the questions about the book about honeytrapping, the convo in Harvest, the confrontation here. When Paige herself raises an issue it's almost always about romance or sex.

I don't think either Claudia or Elizabeth understood how central this was to Paige enough to be specifically warning her against it. How could they be when both of them have always put other things above romance? (Or at least tried to in Elizabeth's case.) Faced with Paige's intern, Claudia might have been more open about the benefits of honeytrapping, but I'm honestly not sure that would have been a good thing. It seems like Paige was turned off by how open her mother actually was about it after all. She was angry that Elizabeth lied about it, but also offended that Elizabeth thought she slept with Brian to get info. Iow, when Paige said, "Why would I sleep with him if I didn't like him?" she seriously thought the idea was insulting. It's the thing that both fascinates her and scares her. She thought it was *weird* that her mother acted like honeypotting was an issue even after reading the book. Like it freaked Paige out, maybe.

So I guess ultimately the only place I differ is I think it's less about Claudia having a different strategy or teaching style and more just Claudia being different role model than Elizabeth. She doesn't have Elizabeth's sensitivity about shielding Paige from the ugly sides of the work. She's fulfilled by work alone and turns any pain or loneliness or suffering into a good thing. She's dedicated to a USSR and a world that is completely foreign to Paige. And one that Elizabeth doesn't see the way she does.

But she's also totally different from Paige and was never going to influence her in this way. She just had very little to offer when it came to Paige's own interests.

I agree she didn't ever think they were tilting at windmills with Paige. She was an American willing to work for the USSR so she was already a success. Elizabeth did doom her to a life as a hopeless American child by her betrayal--but I still don't get the impression that this meant Claudia had a true vision of a Russian Paige in her head. Just a person who would have been worth something because she was helping the Cause. I think "American" here didn't mean as opposed to Russian but as an embodiment of a pointless life so common in the west.

Loved every bit of this post, and made me think of Paige and her reactions in a totally different way.

I've been thinking about generational perspectives a lot lately, not just in terms of this show. So I loved the bolded paragraph. It makes a lot of sense to me. And really, is something we all experience in our lives.

5 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

I think all the western country posts were nice. 

I'm sure they all were. But given that at the time the US and Soviet Union were basically THE superpowers - I'd assume the US post would be the pinnacle posting for anyone doing embassy work, regardless of position. I'd think they'd only send their best (I expect we did the same). Sometimes, of course, connections entered into it - as it did with Oleg - for which we are thankful.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Clanstarling

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Plus, the directors must have wanted the viewers to be able to recognize Tatiana when she hit the ground.  If her wig stayed on, many might not.  In fact, I wasn't quite sure who she was until I read it here.  lol I knew that I recognized her, but, couldn't believe my eyes. 

It was also a good parallel to Marilyn lying on the ground in the parking garage with her wig half off after being shot and killed.

35 minutes ago, Plums said:

From the implication of that one scene with her in the Rezidentura, I assumed the guy she was ranting about Oleg to, who said they needed evidence and commiserated with her over people in the organization who got there by some sort of privilege were ruining it, was the new Rezident after Arkady was PNGed, and that he shared her hardliner sympathies. She may have been Deputy Rezident, which is what Arkady was early season 1 under Vasili. She told Oleg she was in the same position she had been in when he was there, but she may have been lying to him because that whole confrontation was her trying to manipulate him into admitting he committed treason. 

I agree - she was not the new Rezident. But it seemed like her opinion was respected by the current Rezident, so she wasn't banished to some unimportant role either.