Dancing On The Grassy Knoll: Conspiracy Theories

[RedFiat]

13 minutes ago, RedFiat said:

Wait a second. What was so scandalous with Brooke Burke?  or Jennifer Grey... I recall whatever issues they had were dealt with and they remain good friends.  This isn't even in the realm of Hope Solo or Leila Ali or Janel Parrish who aren't even friends with their celebrity partner anymore.  This is a lot of a nothingburger that's trying to be as bad as those, and that's what I find amusing.

Moreover, Marilu had a horrible Charleston, and I was stunned because I saw some really sophisticated Fosse movement from her in rehearsal.  Then when I learned only from his blog that she had significant feet issues and that she could hardly walk,  that's when I thought yeah, the show is more than downplaying the issue, they didn't even mention it in the week that it mattered to the outcome.  Then they mentioned it in passing this week of the AT when her feet were on the mend.  Not really what I call honest editing, particularly when you get pros injured and it's the story of the week.      

[vibeology]

With Brooke Burke he told her she had a "lazy mind" and she stormed out of rehearsal. I can't find a video of that package anymore and they bounced back but Brooke was still mentioning it every so often when she was hosting. Jennifer and Derek had a big fight too where she told him to control his temper and she eventually walked out of a rehearsal. This isn't something new for Derek, unlike his claim.

He's not getting into the big fights that Maks used to get into but my point was just that Derek wasn't telling the truth in his blog because it's a promotional tool for him and he's going to present his version of a story and paint himself in the best light. They all do it. I'm just pointing out Derek doing it here and saying that whatever is happening between him and Marilu lies somewhere between the big fight the show suggests and the "everything's rosy" that Derek suggests.

[truthaboutluv]

YMMV but I think when he says he's not known for drama he's referring to major issues on the show with his celebrities that get talked about, e.g. see someone like Maks. And the fact is that is sort of true with regard to Derek. Yes, you can go through every season he's been on and find at least one rehearsal package that had some tension with his celebrity, which is likely the case for most Pros. But typically these weren't things that got really blown up and for the most part, his partnership with these women were good. So in that respect he's not the drama guy. 

[gohawks]

Derek should stop. He forgets how he jumped on board when Brandy started getting the "too needy" edit.  

[Alapaki]

Quote

My question is this:  Do you think the judges are encouraged to give higher or lower scores than they would have if they were left to their own devices?  They make the girls work harder for their scores and praise and give the boys a pass?   That is also the argument.  And the editing packages only capture the tenseness that a couple is having because that makes for good TV?  So really Calvin and Lindsay, James and Sharna are going at in the rehearsal room but they are just not showing their tense moments?  I honestly can't tell.

Back in the latter-TWoP Days, I ran the numbers each week.  Ultimately I concluded that it's extremely difficult for the Judges to conclusively decide the outcome with their scores.  Once you convert the raw points to "percentage of total points awarded", the spread between teams shrinks considerably.

The one caveat there is that, to the extent that prior viewer-voting patterns are predictive (and unlike us, I'm assuming the Judges are privy to that information), theoretically they could issue scores that could make a difference if that week's viewer-voting followed past patterns.  But that's requires some pretty scalpel-sharp precision, and still wouldn't be a lock.

I do think the Judges have much more influence in terms of how they contribute to the narrative.  Although, frankly, I think Len is the only one who has viewer-credibility sufficient to move votes (the way Simon Cowell did when he was at the top of his American Idol game).  Carrie Ann is a joke, Julianne comes across as a lightweight, and Bruno is Bruno.

If you want to find skullduggery, the place to look is in the gimmick dances (i.e. group dances, dance-offs, etc.) because these act as point-multipliers that enhance the effect of the Judges' scores.

And, of course, this week, when the Judges know that whomever they give the highest score in Round 1 gets Immunity this week, and the Judges know (and you'll never convince me they don't) who got the lowest scores last week (and would thus be eliminated this week), it's entirely possible that the Round One scoring was directed towards overruling the elimination decision that was based on last week's dances.

[RedFiat]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

YMMV but I think when he says he's not known for drama he's referring to major issues on the show with his celebrities that get talked about, e.g. see someone like Maks. And the fact is that is sort of true with regard to Derek. Yes, you can go through every season he's been on and find at least one rehearsal package that had some tension with his celebrity, which is likely the case for most Pros. But typically these weren't things that got really blown up and for the most part, his partnership with these women were good. So in that respect he's not the drama guy. 

Agree.  I can't believe I'm defending Derek, but in truth the guy has not been the one who is overly dramatic, and I do think he's being pretty honest about that.  In recalling the Brooke Burke story, when she had an issue with him the show actually sat them down on camera to talk about it and he apologized on camera.  I don't recall some of the other celebrities getting that kind of respect after they said words out of frustration in rehearsal. Maybe they did, but getting an apology from the pro on camera is rare.  So of course there will be incidents, Jen Grey in particular had a lot of health problems, a foot injury and very fragile spinal cord and that certainly played into her frustration.

But when the show is trying to make a story out of Marilu falling to insinuate that he actually pushed her is wrong and should be called out.   This is not Maks manhandling Hope Solo in rehearsal because she wasn't listening to him.   This was clearly an accident, otherwise Derek would not have attended to her as soon as it happened.  

[gohawks]

43 minutes ago, RedFiat said:

Agree.  I can't believe I'm defending Derek, but in truth the guy has not been the one who is overly dramatic, and I do think he's being pretty honest about that.  In recalling the Brooke Burke story, when she had an issue with him the show actually sat them down on camera to talk about it and he apologized on camera.  I don't recall some of the other celebrities getting that kind of respect after they said words out of frustration in rehearsal. Maybe they did, but getting an apology from the pro on camera is rare.  So of course there will be incidents, Jen Grey in particular had a lot of health problems, a foot injury and very fragile spinal cord and that certainly played into her frustration.

But when the show is trying to make a story out of Marilu falling to insinuate that he actually pushed her is wrong and should be called out.   This is not Maks manhandling Hope Solo in rehearsal because she wasn't listening to him.   This was clearly an accident, otherwise Derek would not have attended to her as soon as it happened.  

Marilu said she felt she was pushed. She said that. TPTB did not insinuate anything. Is there really an expectation that TPTB were going to walk away from that? 

[vibeology]

And I don't think my position is really that far apart from everyone else's. I don't think Derek deliberately pushed Marilu. That's ridiculous. It doesn't benefit him in any way to do that. It makes him look bad that his partner fell and it cost the team points. I do think Derek probably completed his arm motion which did mean guiding her away and Marilu (dancing on injured feet) lost her balance and fell. It was an accident and no one is to blame. I have no problem with Derek asserting that in his blog. Where I rolled my eyes was in his claim that he and Marilu are very connected and that he doesn't have any history with trouble with a partner so obviously this must all be manufactured.

And maybe he meant "drama" differently than I do. But for the most part on this show (save Maks/Hope and Jaleel/Kym and probably a few others I'm forgetting) the worst thing that can happen is one partner storm out on the other during rehearsal. The show has always framed that as a big deal and Derek has been involved with several of those events. So when he starts his blog saying something that I don't agree with, I look at his other claims with enough awareness to know that the blog is just as edited and manufactured as the packages and Derek is using it to tell his side of the story. It isn't any more true or representative than the video of what happened with Derek and Marilu last week.

And for the larger issue of is the show trying to doom the couple with an unfair package? I doubt it. The show goes where they can find drama and Marilu saying she felt pushed it too good to pass up. It generates interest and discussion in the show (like us, how meta) and keeps people watching. I can't imagine anyone currently on the cast falling, making the statement that they felt pushed and it not showing up in the next week's package no matter who they were or how long the show wanted them to stick around. I don't think it's any more unfair than any other practice this show engages in to keep people watching. And I don't think its about Derek and Marilu. It that had happened to Val and Laurie and she said she felt pushed, the show would have ran with it too.

[boyznkatz]

I don't think Derek is a saint either, but I don't think he pushed her on purpose.

[RedFiat]

2 hours ago, gohawks said:

Marilu said she felt she was pushed. She said that. TPTB did not insinuate anything. Is there really an expectation that TPTB were going to walk away from that? 

Of course they did. That's an irresponsible edit by TPTB,  it was obviously parced and not fully explained.  

[ElectricCityy]

I don't think Derek pushed her intentionally but the fact that she may have took it as intentional tells me everything I need to know about how this partnership going.

[boyznkatz]

52 minutes ago, ElectricCityy said:

I don't think Derek pushed her intentionally but the fact that she may have took it as intentional tells me everything I need to know about how this partnership going.

Yes, they are pretty painful to watch.

[RedFiat]

4 hours ago, ElectricCityy said:

I don't think Derek pushed her intentionally but the fact that she may have took it as intentional tells me everything I need to know about how this partnership going.

The operative word is "may have" we don't even know what was said in context, she could have said something like" I can't believe I fell, on a simple turn, I lost my balance, I went down so hard it felt like a push" but all we get is "it felt like a push" thereby implicating the pro, when it could have been completely misconstrued. Because we get nothing else, no explanation nada.  But certainly the show wants us to believe that the partnership is going terribly.  I don't believe the edit., especially on this show.  I want more information before I would formulate an opinion

Edited November 5, 2016 by RedFiat

[RedFiat]

19 hours ago, vibeology said:

And maybe he meant "drama" differently than I do. But for the most part on this show (save Maks/Hope and Jaleel/Kym and probably a few others I'm forgettin

Oh yeah, there has been lots of drama, when Tony was accused  of having an affair with Sara Edwards, she leaves the show abruptly because her husband was suing for divorce, or how about Joey Lawrence telling everyone that he walked in on his brother Chris' girlfriend Cheryl Burke giving married man Drew Lachey a blow job. Then there's Maks /Hope/and Len, Jaleel and Kym, Etc. So yeah, I think Derek wasn't referring to studio spats because everybody has them. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by RedFiat

[Uke]

Just read this on Kristyn Burtt's blog:

http://thebarretender.tv/blog/2016/11/11-juicy-notes-inside-dancing-stars-studio

"10. Rob Wade: I am sure this isn’t a new phenomenon, but it’s one I noticed the most because of where I was sitting this time around. The executive producer visits the judges’ table at every commercial break. I wasn’t close enough to eavesdrop on the conversation, but it sure looked odd from my vantage point. Why do they need coaching at every break?"

Why indeed?

[katha]

Because it's a reality show with dance content, it's never been a true dance contest in any way, shape or form. People watch to see celebs learn to dance (that's why All Stars was a bit of a bust, frankly. The quest/challenge aspect makes it interesting for the audience, seeing people be out of their element and try new things, All Stars did away with all of that), to get to know them, to be entertained by sparkly dances, to get a bit riled up when they disagree with scores. It's fun and fluffy. If the best dancer in any given season wins, that's accidental. You need to be decent and entertaining to win and make people connect with you, that's it. It's not a "real" competition with clear rules and "objective" scoring or whatever, it can't be. When you have 70 year olds competing against young athletes etc., that's not possible.

[Alapaki]

Quote

 

 Why do they need coaching at every break?"

Why indeed?

 

Have you seen those three?  I think they need coaching to tie their own shoes!

I don't think there's any knollery there.  To the extent that the producers influence the outcome, it's done prior to the show ever going live.

[Uke]

13 hours ago, katha said:

Because it's a reality show with dance content, it's never been a true dance contest in any way, shape or form. People watch to see celebs learn to dance (that's why All Stars was a bit of a bust, frankly. The quest/challenge aspect makes it interesting for the audience, seeing people be out of their element and try new things, All Stars did away with all of that), to get to know them, to be entertained by sparkly dances, to get a bit riled up when they disagree with scores. It's fun and fluffy. If the best dancer in any given season wins, that's accidental. You need to be decent and entertaining to win and make people connect with you, that's it. It's not a "real" competition with clear rules and "objective" scoring or whatever, it can't be. When you have 70 year olds competing against young athletes etc., that's not possible.

Yes of course. I think it's clear to all by now that it's not a real dance competition and that the progression each week and the final results are manipulated (though I don't think it started out like this).  But if the "judges'" scores and/or comments are being micro-managed commercial by commercial, stop wasting everyone's time telling us to vote and telling us the outcome is up to us.  The show has succeeded all these years, in part, by getting the audience invested in, what they call, a competition. 

[Alapaki]

Quote

You need to be decent and entertaining to win and make people connect with you, that's it. It's not a "real" competition with clear rules and "objective" scoring or whatever, it can't be. When you have 70 year olds competing against young athletes etc., that's not possible.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the portion I highlighted above.  I don't think there's ever been any serious pretense that this show is a formal dance competition with strictly enforced technical and artistic rules.  Yes, I know the Judges like to pepper their commentary with terms and figures of speech that sound like formal scoring criteria, it's not like we're watching the Olympics of dance.

And I don't necessary have a problem with someone who shows effort, improvement, and even enjoyment with the process being rewarded for that with viewer votes.  (as I've mentioned before, it's very tough for the Judges' points to really make a difference, with a few exceptions and until the very end).

I think things get a little more problematic when it comes to their more recent desire to cast "stars" with physical challenges that make it literally impossible for them to perform the assigned dances (even given a loose definition of the parameters of the dance style).  

It doesn't seem fair for the Judges to nit pick on the performances of "stars" who don't have physical challenges, but when confronted with "stars" who just. can't. physically. do. the. dance., to say "¯\_(ツ)_/¯, here's your 10's!"

[PBGamer89]

Looking back now, Laurie had the typical" frontrunner gets low scores/criticism for a couple weeks".

I do wonder if that has to do with her getting the highest votes nearly every week and they had to do a narrative to make it seem like others had a shot or she didn't have it sewn up so easily.

Since Halloween week, she's got 10's for every single dance. That makes 5 in a row now, in addition to her Jazz makes 6 perfect 30's now. The only other person to get more 30's has been Bindi Irwin at 8.

I think Laurie will win, with James a solid 2nd, but 3rd and 4th could go either way with Calvin and Jana. 

Edited November 15, 2016 by PBGamer89

[jjjmoss]

I think even non-watchers of the show before the season started kinda assumed the girl with the amazing floor routine fresh off the winning Olympic team, with a personality that made her America's Sweetheart during the Games, would win.

I wonder if TPTB will try to avoid having an Obvious Female Celebrity Frontrunner, so that Sharna can finally win after being 3rd, 2nd, 4th, and 2nd in her last 4 seasons.

[gimmeegimmeegim]

Show folks say that people want to keep yapping dogs in back seats of little cars out of certain dancing places next season. Because the dogs are waaaay too noisy and bothersome. All in favor say woof.

Ooos, another yapping dog added today, say folks. That one has to go, too, whisper those who are tired.

Edited November 25, 2016 by gimmeegimmeegim

[crossover]

On 11/23/2016 at 0:36 AM, jjjmoss said:

I wonder if TPTB will try to avoid having an Obvious Female Celebrity Frontrunner, so that Sharna can finally win after being 3rd, 2nd, 4th, and 2nd in her last 4 seasons.

Hopefully they will move on and give Emma a try with one of the best male celebs.  ETA:  I guess I can't get over her finishing 5th with Charlie.

Edited November 25, 2016 by movement

[McManda]

51 minutes ago, movement said:

guess I can't get over her finishing 5th with Charlie

I think that outcome was inevitable, mostly because going in he was going to split votes with Meryl. Added to the constant underscoring from the judges and having to compete against Any Purdy's inspirational story ... imo he was facing an uphill battle from the beginning, despite his personality and dance ability.

If we're going to give pros a chance ... and we give Artem someone good?

Edited November 25, 2016 by McManda

[crossover]

28 minutes ago, McManda said:

I think that outcome was inevitable, mostly because going in he was going to split votes with Meryl. Added to the constant underscoring from the judges and having to compete against Any Purdy's inspirational story ... imo he was facing an uphill battle from the beginning, despite his personality and dance ability.

If we're going to give pros a chance ... and we give Artem someone good?

I agree that it was inevitable that either Meryl or Charlie would win during their season.  Obviously Maks showcased Meryl better.  That's when the judges start adjusting their scores.  After they see which way the votes are going, they adjust their rhetoric and scores pro or con depending on the show's narrative.  Plus I agree with most that the fix was in to give Maks a win.  But still 5th is almost like not trying (I know she was trying).  If Cheryl can make it with Rob and Lindsay with Alek, Charlie should've been a shoe-in for semis or final week regardless of the judges.  He was that gifted, handsome with name recognition.  More voters should've been drawn to him.

Doesn't Artem already have a win on Strictly?

[truthaboutluv]

21 minutes ago, movement said:

I agree that it was inevitable that either Meryl or Charlie would win during their season.  Obviously Maks showcased Meryl better.  That's when the judges start adjusting their scores.  After they see which way the votes are going, they adjust their rhetoric and scores pro or con depending on the show's narrative.  Plus I agree with most that the fix was in to give Maks a win.  But still 5th is almost like not trying (I know she was trying).  If Cheryl can make it with Rob and Lindsay with Alek, Charlie should've been a shoe-in for semis or final week regardless of the judges.  He was that gifted, handsome with name recognition.  More voters should've been drawn to him.

Doesn't Artem already have a win on Strictly?

Except Rob and Alek were the type of contestants that screwed someone like Charlie - the underdog. As noted above, Charlie was not only splitting votes with Meryl, he then had to contend with Amy, who had an inspirational backstory and Derek as her Pro and then there was Candace. Do people think DJ Tanner didn't come with her fanbase? And Candace was the perfect contestant for "the show is about people who can't dance and get better" crowd. Many people liked that she wasn't the best dancer but kept working hard. And then James was hot (did nothing for me but I acknowledge I usually have the unpopular opinion in these matters) and some were shipping him and Peta. Then there was Charlie - nice guy, good dancer but with a lot of lukewarm praise and comments from the judges. Charlie being 5th was not surprising. 

[crossover]

7 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

 Charlie being 5th was not surprising. 

Even with all your excuses, I think 5th was surprising.  There are underdogs and inspirational celebs during seasons.  If you are gifted enough and showcased well enough, you make semis or finals.  I know he probably split votes with Meryl but as the season moved on, he should've been able to amass his own group.  This never happened.  I think the "nice guy" image is a plus kind of like Corbin.

[crowceilidh]

As a Charlie fan, I just don't understand what happened there.  I loved their dances and don't understand how he failed to capture the votes necessary.  I don't blame Sharna -- I think he just didn't have a story.  I think a lot of people expected Charlie to be more popular than Meryl, but then she and Maks were so delightful together that we were surprised to find we liked her too.  The way Maks behaved with her became a story, but Sharna and Charlie just didn't have a story.  That doesn't affect my choices, but the way people hunger for narrative draped over all of their facts/opinions/new reports/advertising etc suggests to me that it's possible that was the problem.  If they could have manufactured something about his fiance being worried about Sharna...?  But of course she's from such a similar world that she would just look cray cray if that story had been put forward.

[McManda]

I think Charlie was also at a disadvantage in that people tend to assume the female dancers have a harder job than the male dancers. We saw that excuse pop up even between James and Laurie this season. True or not, that was also something Charlie had to overcome. Maks could give Meryl harder choreo, more challenging choreography, and she'd get praise because she could pull it off. There's only so much Sharna could give Charlie, or drill over and over until it was beyond perfect, and even then his perfect frame or sharp kicks still wouldn't be as visually appealing as Meryl or Amy tricks or spins. I don't think it's shocking that with all the complaining about ringers, in the end female ringers tend to do better than male ringers. Charlie struggled for an audience, Mario Lopez came in 2nd, and so did Evan Lysacek.

So Charlie's splitting votes with Meryl, fighting against Amy's story and partnership with anointed Derek, lukewarm praise from the judges, and the idea that because he's a male his part is easier AND he's got less of a growth curve because he's an ice dancer ... it didn't surprise me in the slightest that he was the shocking elimination of that season. (It did make me sad, though. I liked Charlie.) I don't think Sharna had a lot to do with that. She was fighting an uphill battle, too.

Quote

Doesn't Artem already have a win on Strictly?

Yeah. I don't necessarily need Artem to win, I just want to see what he does with a partner that isn't older, disinterested, or neurotic. I find myself liking his choreography a lot, especially his standard choreography, and I'd like to see what he does with something that might be able to make it to the finals.

Edited November 26, 2016 by McManda
autocorrect fails

[katha]

With Charlie White I do think Sharna fell a bit into "pro gets over-ambitious with ringer" syndrome, she was still pretty inexperienced then as a pro. Some of his dances seemed overchoreographed for me (tango was meh, cha-cha had too much stuff going on, paso was try-hard, the samba was cringe) and they were just too quiet in a season where other pairs had bigger narratives. Danica had the same problem. Charlie also reads as "boyish" IMO, which isn't necessarily what the "charming male" crowd goes for, nor would they have gone for the fact that Sharna and Charlie came a bit across as older sister and younger brother. To be fair to Sharna, Charlie was also a contestant who was actively resisting storyboarding, I've heard somewhere that Sharna tried to make him propose to Tanith on the show like she later did with Noah, but Charlie resisted that as well.  They're always super hard on male ringers, the only exception is Fons who managed to win, and they were pretty tough on him some weeks as well. Though I would argue the week they were so nasty to him about the paso and put him in jeopardy? That was a last ditch effort by the producers to shore up votes for him to get him to the finals, after that they gave up on him and he became the "shocking elimination". Ultimately, that was a good dramatic storyline for them as well, that's all they care about at the end of the day.

Edited November 26, 2016 by katha

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

To be fair to Sharna, Charlie was also a contestant who was actively resisting storyboarding, I've heard somewhere that Sharna tried to make him propose to Tanith on the show like she later did with Noah, but Charlie resisted that as well. 

And that just made me love and respect Charlie even more. While I was mostly indifferent to Noah, I lost a lot of respect for him with that move, which was only solidified when barely six months later, the engagement was off. Like I get that people get competitive, but seriously, to go to that length for a cheesy mirrorball trophy?

[realdancemom]

8 hours ago, katha said:

With Charlie White I do think Sharna fell a bit into "pro gets over-ambitious with ringer" syndrome, she was still pretty inexperienced then as a pro. Some of his dances seemed overchoreographed for me (tango was meh, cha-cha had too much stuff going on, paso was try-hard, the samba was cringe) and they were just too quiet in a season where other pairs had bigger narratives. Danica had the same problem. Charlie also reads as "boyish" IMO, which isn't necessarily what the "charming male" crowd goes for, nor would they have gone for the fact that Sharna and Charlie came a bit across as older sister and younger brother. To be fair to Sharna, Charlie was also a contestant who was actively resisting storyboarding, I've heard somewhere that Sharna tried to make him propose to Tanith on the show like she later did with Noah, but Charlie resisted that as well.  They're always super hard on male ringers, the only exception is Fons who managed to win, and they were pretty tough on him some weeks as well. Though I would argue the week they were so nasty to him about the paso and put him in jeopardy? That was a last ditch effort by the producers to shore up votes for him to get him to the finals, after that they gave up on him and he became the "shocking elimination". Ultimately, that was a good dramatic storyline for them as well, that's all they care about at the end of the day.

ITA.  I was going to say the same thing.  Sharna got too ambitious with a ringer.  I also like that Charllie was not into drama and didn't give in to proposing just to get into the finals.

[Barbara Manatee]

9 hours ago, katha said:

Though I would argue the week they were so nasty to him about the paso and put him in jeopardy? That was a last ditch effort by the producers to shore up votes for him to get him to the finals, after that they gave up on him and he became the "shocking elimination". Ultimately, that was a good dramatic storyline for them as well, that's all they care about at the end of the day.

I think the producers did what they did to keep Charlie OUT of the finals as soon as they realized he and Meryl weren't going to give them any rivalry drama. They only needed one of them in it to keep the skating/Olympics viewers watching, and it was better for the ratings to spread the other three spots around to different demographics.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Barbara Manatee

[katha]

I rewatched all of Charlie's dances and some other things stood out as well: IMO Sharna didn't dress him well, sorta reinforcing that he comes across as younger than he is. It stood out in jive, cha-cha, quickstep and samba. Having him in more classical, streamlined costumes might have done a world of good for his overall impression. And in several dances Charlie is clearly overwhelmed with the content, tries to do it, but does it not quite cleanly and with hesitation. That stood out in paso and samba the most, but was kinda a running theme throughout his season. And nearly every dance is busy with concepts and change of location. I think jive and cha-cha in particular would have been even better without the gimmicks. Also, Charlie dropped all his props in the jazz and foxtrot. Perhaps just go without props, or at least don't do things that complicated with them?

I loved his contemporary, jazz and quickstep and liked jive and cha-cha. But some of his other dances honestly don't seem all that enjoyable to me, and I do think that ties into Sharna's decision making. But it's not like she's the only one to do it, or even the worst offender with ringers, and she was really inexperienced at the time.

Interesting sidenote about the paso, I've now noticed this happening with at least three different pros: Creating a paso routine that overwhelms the celeb. Sharna did it with Charlie, Mark has done it a few times, Val did it this season with Laurie's first paso. Is it something specific about that dance that lends itself to miscalculations like that?

[tessaforever]

2 hours ago, katha said:

I rewatched all of Charlie's dances and some other things stood out as well: IMO Sharna didn't dress him well, sorta reinforcing that he comes across as younger than he is. It stood out in jive, cha-cha, quickstep and samba. Having him in more classical, streamlined costumes might have done a world of good for his overall impression. And in several dances Charlie is clearly overwhelmed with the content, tries to do it, but does it not quite cleanly and with hesitation. That stood out in paso and samba the most, but was kinda a running theme throughout his season. And nearly every dance is busy with concepts and change of location. I think jive and cha-cha in particular would have been even better without the gimmicks. Also, Charlie dropped all his props in the jazz and foxtrot. Perhaps just go without props, or at least don't do things that complicated with them?

I loved his contemporary, jazz and quickstep and liked jive and cha-cha. But some of his other dances honestly don't seem all that enjoyable to me, and I do think that ties into Sharna's decision making. But it's not like she's the only one to do it, or even the worst offender with ringers, and she was really inexperienced at the time.

Interesting sidenote about the paso, I've now noticed this happening with at least three different pros: Creating a paso routine that overwhelms the celeb. Sharna did it with Charlie, Mark has done it a few times, Val did it this season with Laurie's first paso. Is it something specific about that dance that lends itself to miscalculations like that?

You are absolutely right, something was off about Sharna's choreography, staging, and costuming for Charlie and it didn't showcase him to his best advantage. Props seem to almost always go wrong, so I cringe every time I see a dance start with them. 

I think there's a LOT of pressure to make the paso a super intense, dramatic dance, so I think that's why they come off as heavy-handed. 

[crossover]

On 11/26/2016 at 1:03 AM, katha said:

With Charlie White I do think Sharna fell a bit into "pro gets over-ambitious with ringer" syndrome,

This reminded me of something Witney said.  She was basically afraid that her choreography and staging would hurt Alfonso's chances of going far in the competition.  Is it just the female pros who try so hard when they get a ringer?  I remember the male pros being scolded about their simplistic routines when the celeb could handle more.

[katha]

I think it depends on the pro and isn't gender-specific. I've seen Maks be accused of giving his celeb not enough content, and also of being too ambitious (frankly, with him it's probably mostly just that he's an inconsistent pro who can do great and produce real knockout routines and also total blah ones). Louis was always the worst offender about going way overboard when he thought a celeb is capable, even as recently as in the switch-up with Tamar. I think no one else comes even close to him in that regard. Karina tends towards the ambitious as well, I'd say. I would also argue that when Mark has erred, it's rather been on the "giving celeb too much" side. Val more often than not goes for a lot of content and IMO pushes it as far as he thinks a celeb can handle it, without falling over the cliff like Louis with it.

It is probably a fine line to walk: You have a capable partner and want to challenge them to get better, so you need to take some risks. But if you push it too far, they'll look sloppy and overwhelmed and it will cost you.

[realdancemom]

Another thing that has happened is that traditional ballroom pros have had to learn choreography outside of ballroom.  As much as I love Karina as a Latin dancer,  I remember how she hated having Hip-hop during the All Star Season.   It was Apolo that had to carry that dance and was the calm one.   She was sometimes too ambitious with Corbin but that was supposedly her dream partner.  I don't think Tony, Maks, or Tristan do well outside of ballroom either.  Val had to learn and adapt.   Pros from Utah are cross-trained so they can choreograph other styles.  If there is a negative, sometimes Witney fuses too much hip-hop in her dances especially since she tends to get stars that can do that style, e.g. Cody, Alfonso, Vanilla Ice, and Carlos.  Then there's Alison who didn't grow up doing ballroom since the Dance Club does not do that style.  I do believe she's been taking some classes since appearing in SYTYCD but she dances/choreographs too frantically.

Also, some pros don't do well with big production numbers like freestyles.  That's why I was worried about Val's freestyles.  I didn't know if he could deliver a good one for Laurie.  Even though, he previously won with Rumer, it was a scaled back freestyle.  Fortunately, he didn't mess up with Laurie's freestyle like he did with Zendaya's.

[boyznkatz]

Aren't the pros allowed to use outside choreographers for their freestyles, though? I seem to remember Peta using one for her freestyle with Nyle.  Val probably should have gone that route for Zendaya, but I guess he chose not to.

[realdancemom]

11 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

Aren't the pros allowed to use outside choreographers for their freestyles, though? I seem to remember Peta using one for her freestyle with Nyle.  Val probably should have gone that route for Zendaya, but I guess he chose not to.

That's true.  Pros might be able to use outside choreographers during regular dances too like when Derek had somebody teach Bhangra.  I don't know if they could do that for styles that are in the normal rotation.  I think Gleb should have hired a jazz choreographer for their jazz dance and used a contemporary choreographer for their freestyle.

[kitcloudkicker]

3 minutes ago, realdancemom said:

That's true.  Pros might be able to use outside choreographers during regular dances too like when Derek had somebody teach Bhangra.  I don't know if they could do that for styles that are in the normal rotation.  I think Gleb should have hired a jazz choreographer for their jazz dance and used a contemporary choreographer for their freestyle.

I think I remember Sharna answering this once. They are allowed outside choreographers at any time, the only thing they can't do is offload the actual teaching of the dance.

[crowceilidh]

Watching the opening number tonight, I felt that Sasha and Emma traded their onstage wedding proposal for contenders (Hope I still feel that way after watching them dance) consciously or subconsciously.

[gimmeegimmeegim]

She said dogs in the back seat and always blasé but will be gone soon. Thank goodness!

[surreysmum]

Not really a conspiracy theory, just a whine - Canadians are shut out from the voting again this year.  Grr.  

I'm thinking we may not have enough in the way of Canada-specific D-list celeb culture to support a local version, even though we had a reasonably successful spin-off of SYTYCD, and in other areas, the Canadian versions of Masterchef and Amazing Race are actually (IMHO) superior products.

Feels like someone is saying to us, "Just shut up, watch our commercials, and buy our products. Your opinions don't matter." Not that that's anything new in the Canadian relationship to US TV.

[RedFiat]

I don't think that voting will change much this season.  It did matter last season when there was a Canadian contender who should have won.    

[gimmeegimmeegim]

omg. dog's still here. yapping's toned down but a couple of her friends have shown up to complain about everything and everyone--even us viewers. Sooo old.

[crossover]

This week, Len scoring Bonner higher than Nick makes me think Nick is pulling in more votes.  Nick is so much smoother in his movements which is what Len normally prefers.  So I'm GUESSING he wants Nick to outlast Bonner.  Thus, he must be pulling in more votes than Bonner.  His votes will cancel out the one point difference.  
I think he's just supporting David as "feel good" scoring.  TPTB are probably getting encouraging texts/tweets about him.  Hopefully, it won't backfire and he outlasts one of the top five.  
Either Normani is pulling in more votes and Len wants to bring her back to the pack, or, she's bringing in more votes and Len wants to convince people that she's not that good?  Just confused as to why Len would give MrT, Nick and Erika the same score as Normani. And he scored David and Bonner higher.  Could they really not want Normani to make the finals?  I THINK Nancy is Len's favorite but I FEEL she's not bringing in the votes.  One of the top women will have to be brought down a peg or two if Nancy's going to get a shot.  Rashad's just doesn't execute as cleanly as the dance-trained women.  So he probably won't make the finale.  Even if he does, he'll be the male rep which would be a plus.

[Beatrice]

4 hours ago, crossover said:

This week, Len scoring Bonner higher than Nick makes me think Nick is pulling in more votes.  Nick is so much smoother in his movements which is what Len normally prefers.  So I'm GUESSING he wants Nick to outlast Bonner.  Thus, he must be pulling in more votes than Bonner.  His votes will cancel out the one point difference.  
I think he's just supporting David as "feel good" scoring.  TPTB are probably getting encouraging texts/tweets about him.  Hopefully, it won't backfire and he outlasts one of the top five.  
Either Normani is pulling in more votes and Len wants to bring her back to the pack, or, she's bringing in more votes and Len wants to convince people that she's not that good?  Just confused as to why Len would give MrT, Nick and Erika the same score as Normani. And he scored David and Bonner higher.  Could they really not want Normani to make the finals?  I THINK Nancy is Len's favorite but I FEEL she's not bringing in the votes.  One of the top women will have to be brought down a peg or two if Nancy's going to get a shot.  Rashad's just doesn't execute as cleanly as the dance-trained women.  So he probably won't make the finale.  Even if he does, he'll be the male rep which would be a plus.

Normani will be fine with votes the entire show, so her scores really don't mean anything. They are propping Rashad every week so far so I think he will be the male in the finale. If it's a three person finale that leaves one place for either Simone, Heather or Nancy.   Leaning toward Simone because they have given Heather crappy dance placement every week and underscoring. So they must not be concerned with her lasting long since I'm not sure on her votes being enough to get her there. I think Nancy will be about 5th. 

[Princt1]

Nothing but charm, charm, charm from now on. Won't be beat!

[heartsaperkin]

Still charm and niceness--not mor, it's dr less.