S06.E07: Harvest

[hellmouse]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

14 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

She is halfheartedly (subconsciously?) trying to get Philip to stop her from dying by telling him about the cyanide pill. She doesn't really want to die but she wants someone else to stop her. She's putting the burden of saving her onto Philip, whether she realizes it or not. 

IMO he realizes it.

I don't think that.  She really wanted to save the "Chicago Philip" and she was simply honest with him about how this operation might not work.  In her way, she was saying goodbye.  Did she (at least in her heart of hearts) want him there, because with him there was a better chance of living and getting Harvest out?  Of course.

Interesting! That makes a lot of sense. She knows that if this operation goes bad, she might die because she can't be arrested. So simply by telling him and showing him the cyanide pill, she is saying goodbye. I think you're right. 

I do still think there is a part of her that doesn't want to die and knows that telling Philip will mean that he'll try to stop her. Or maybe I just want that to be true! 

[Cardie]

45 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

IMO they've treated Paige like an asset rather than an agent.

Good point. I also think the intense interest in Paige here--I never thought about her very much until rejoining the forum--may have come about because we previously had well drawn, potentially tragic assets like Nina and Martha to comment on. With the lack of compelling secondary characters for the last two seasons, Paige is getting scrutiny she doesn't perhaps deserve.
 

[Umbelina]

Paige is in training to be an Intelligence OFFICER, she isn't (wasn't?) destined to be a mere asset or agent, she was destined to recruit and run people like Martha and Marilyn.  That's part of the reason she needed that kind of training, you can't very well direct others to do things you don't know how to do.

By the way, quoting myself here, since I kind of loved this description of Paige's mind, but it was buried in a long post full of quotes.  This was in answer to one about what's going on in Paige's mind.

  It's all anime with Paige in super cute spy clothes taking down the bad guys, efficiently and while looking amazingly cute.  She's the heroine, and ugly, stupid, clueless dweebs watch her in awe, while she single handedly saves the world.  Sometimes her cool mother applauds from the side lines, so proud and impressed she is.

That's how "deep Paige is.  The idea that she is smart, or has done any research, bugs me, because no, those two things to not add up.  Either she's smart and she has, or she's an idiot who has not. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

45 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

 

I do still think there is a part of her that doesn't want to die and knows that telling Philip will mean that he'll try to stop her. Or maybe I just want that to be true! 

I think conciously she probably was saying goodbye and telling him some of the stress she was under. But I also think Philip was onto something when he asked why she told him since of course he'd tell her to get rid of it. He would tell her to fight for her life.

And in this case I think she can have some doubts because this mission is unauthorized.  If she could talk to Philip about it she'd be able to think it through. I think she does always associate him with hope even if it seems hopeless. The window drawing also seems like a ray of hope. Last week when did she start drawing?

I don't think she's aware of why she told him completely.  She just knew she wanted him to know. And knew she could tell that part. But he knows the real reason she can't talk about the mission. 

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Paige is in training to be an Intelligence OFFICER, she isn't (wasn't?) destined to be a mere asset or agent, she was destined to recruit and run people like Martha and Marilyn.  That's part of the reason she needed that kind of training, you can't very well direct others to do things you don't know how to do.

And yet she so clearly being treated as an assr it's hard to even pretend to refer to her otherwise.  It does start to seem like a "wasn't" rather than "isn't". Not only is she being lied to and drawn in with dreams of not being alone she's shown no ability to even understand a mission much less plan one. And not just because she doesn't know that yet. She can't plan stuff if she can't even know what they do right in front of her.

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

And yet she so clearly being treated as an assr it's hard to even pretend to refer to her otherwise.  It does start to seem like a "wasn't" rather than "isn't". Not only is she being lied to and drawn in with dreams of not being alone she's shown no ability to even understand a mission much less plan one. And not just because she doesn't know that yet. She can't plan stuff if she can't even know what they do right in front of her.

True, but in the beginning, that's how ALL spies are trained.  Just like she was training Hans really.  Memorization of faces, names, license plates, shoes, how someone walks and how to follow and detect being followed?  Tradecraft 101.  Along with disguises, taking photos, equipment, all the rest.  If you can't do what that FBI guy did?  Know every single vehicle in the vicinity and reel them all off quickly and accurately?  You can't be a spy.  At all.

That's why Paige staring directly at that sailor's name tag for several minutes and getting it WRONG was so concerning to Elizabeth.

If you are cut out for spying?  There is not a chance in hell you would get that wrong.  That was a gimme, if she can't get that right, what are the chances of her noticing a specific car, or someone following her on a busy street?  Zip.

(Sorry, I'm in the middle of some great spy books right now, most written by former long-term spies, and that specific aspect of early training is make-or-break for potential spies.  If they can't do it, accurately and well?  They go to analyst or desk jobs.) 

As Elizabeth told Philip, she didn't make those kind of mistakes, she caught on fast when she was being trained.  THAT is what trainers are supposed to look for, incredible memory, fast recall, being able to observe and watch almost like a computer or camera would, without looking like you are doing that.  That's part of the reason Elizabeth (and Philip) and all operations spies are chosen.  A HUGE, MASSIVE part of it.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Umbelina

[MisterBluxom]

5 hours ago, calpurnia99 said:

Everyone says that Elizabeth was trying to talk Paige out of spying, but then why does she not tell Paige any of the bad things?  She certainly didn't tell her that they had to cut the body up and throw it in the river. She never told her about all the people she had to kill and all the bodies she had to get rid of.  All she said was, they died, it doesn't happen a lot but it happens sometimes.  She has completely sugar coated the truth to Paige. Paige knows nothing about what her parents actually do. If she did, she would not commit to it for life, she get the fuck away right now.

One reason may be that she's afraid if Paige is ever questioned by the FBI or any other American Law Enforcement Agency, Paige will tell them anything that she tells Paige. So maybe she wants to protect herself and Phil and Henry by ensuring Paige doesn't know any of the stuff that would cause them great harm.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

The mission that he got suckered into joining ended horribly.  Marilyn's fingerprints are all over that van, I seriously doubt that someone is going to come back to get the van with dead Harvest inside it, and headless/hand-less Marilyn bleeding out on the parking garage floor.

Given that in the end of the episode Stan and Aderholt were looking at the pictures of and unrecognizable Marilyn, and Harvest, you are certainly right.

[hellmouse]

47 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Paige is in training to be an Intelligence OFFICER, she isn't (wasn't?) destined to be a mere asset or agent, she was destined to recruit and run people like Martha and Marilyn.  That's part of the reason she needed that kind of training, you can't very well direct others to do things you don't know how to do.

And yet she so clearly being treated as an assr it's hard to even pretend to refer to her otherwise.  It does start to seem like a "wasn't" rather than "isn't". Not only is she being lied to and drawn in with dreams of not being alone she's shown no ability to even understand a mission much less plan one. And not just because she doesn't know that yet. She can't plan stuff if she can't even know what they do right in front of her.

I'm not an expert on the difference between asset - agent - officer and I know that others are, so please forgive me if I get it wrong!

What I mean by asset is that Paige is an asset to the KGB because she is an American citizen. They are training her in tradecraft and also trying to indoctrinate her into believing the USSR is the best and the USA is bad. They will expect to take part in operations, to develop sources and obtain information. But she won't be developing those operations on her own. She's not going to be Elizabeth. She's not going to be Nina or Tatiana. AFAIK, she is not an employee of the USSR intelligence services. She is an American citizen who will be acting on behalf of the USSR. Does that make her an agent or an asset? I don't know, but to me, she requires far more hand-holding than I'd expect from an intelligence officer. (And again, I am not an expert so I may be wrong!!)

[Umbelina]

22 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I'm not an expert on the difference between asset - agent - officer and I know that others are, so please forgive me if I get it wrong!

What I mean by asset is that Paige is an asset to the KGB because she is an American citizen. They are training her in tradecraft and also trying to indoctrinate her into believing the USSR is the best and the USA is bad. They will expect to take part in operations, to develop sources and obtain information. But she won't be developing those operations on her own. She's not going to be Elizabeth. She's not going to be Nina or Tatiana. AFAIK, she is not an employee of the USSR intelligence services. She is an American citizen who will be acting on behalf of the USSR. Does that make her an agent or an asset? I don't know, but to me, she requires far more hand-holding than I'd expect from an intelligence officer. (And again, I am not an expert so I may be wrong!!)

Intelligence OFFICER's are what we think of as spies.  KGB, FBI, CIA etc.

They recruit and run AGENTS whether or not the agent knows they are betraying their country.  Martha for example, or with Stan, Nina, who flipped it and Stan became her Agent. 

Assets can be anyone depending on whom is speaking.  If center is speaking, they may refer to "assets" as Officers, or if an Officer is speaking, they may refer to Marilyns as an asset.  That guy Elizabeth seduced to get Larrick's file was both asset and agent.

Paige WILL be Elizabeth.  She will run assets of her own, she will have to.  Sitting in an office somewhere will never tell her all she needs to know.  She will have to follow up on leads, plant cameras, communicate with Center, all of it.  She will recruit agents as well, in order to get access to areas she doesn't have.  She will run assets to help her in the same way Marilyn and Hans helped Elizabeth and Philip.

For example, Paige may learn something by overhearing a conversation in her 9-5 job.  That information will still need follow up, she may have to steal files herself, or copy them, or if the necessary information is in some other office or agency, either recruit someone there to do it, or do a break in herself in some fashion (not optimal.)  She's not going to sit at a desk and have top secret complete files dropped in her lap whenever she needs them.  Even the CIA or FBI is compartmentalized, it's "need to know" on most/many/all cases.  So let's say she's a junior FBI/CIA agent or analyst or secretary, whatever.  She may catch on to a top secret op that's going on, maybe the guy she's sleeping with mentions something, or she glimpses a computer screen, or a bug she's planted picks up something curious.  She will still need to investigate, track down, find out all the rest.  She WILL be Elizabeth.

Paige is being groomed to be an Officer, she won't always have mommy or granny around, she will follow orders from Center, the same way Elizabeth does.  The problem is?  Paige isn't even good at being a low-level asset, like a Marilyn. 

"Secret Agent Man" really screwed up the lingo.  ;~)

Edited May 15, 2018 by Umbelina

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Intelligence OFFICER's are what we think of as spies.  KGB, FBI, CIA etc.

They recruit and run AGENTS whether of not the agent knows they are betraying their country or not.  Martha for example, or with Stan, Nina, who flipped it and Stan became her Agent.

Assets can be anyone depending on whom is speaking.  If center is speaking, they may refer to "assets" as Officers, or if an Officer is speaking, they may refer to Marilyns as an asset.

Now my brain hurts.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Clanstarling said:

Now my brain hurts.

Ha! 

The only important part is the Intelligence OFFICERS are the ones who receiver orders from Center (or whatever, their bosses in DC or France or Moscow) and are responsible for accomplishing those orders, in whatever way needed.  Often that involves people they are "running" as agents/assets doing something they need done.

The KGB wants Paige to be an Officer ideally.  They can recruit Martha's, but placing an embedded Officer is much more valuable.  Right now though?  Paige couldn't even manage to be an asset, she's not cut out for this.  Would they settle for her being a "Martha" only more willing and aware?  Probably, but that's not the goal.  It would make her by far less valuable, and require an actual officer to plan everything and hold her hand forever.

Embedded intelligence officers are by far the most valuable, since they are so hidden and seem to be from whatever country they are in.

For example, imagine the KGB gets a walk in defector (volunteer.)  It can be very problematic for someone at the Residentura to meet with them, since they are usually followed.  However, an embedded, invisible agent like Philip could much more easily meet with that person and assess them, since Philip isn't followed.  He would still be wearing a disguise of course, and might even use cut-outs (generally unwitting accomplices) to protect himself.  If the defector is on the up and up, the embedded spy could meet with them regularly, after ensuring the defector followed protocols to not be followed themselves.  (That guy who bought toys for the kid that murdered is parents is an example.)

Basically though?  Philip and Elizabeth style spies are top of any heap, by far the most valuable.  That, ideally, is what the KGB eventually wants for Paige.

[magemaud]

Unless the van had been wiped clean, Marilyn’s prints were probably only one of dozens that they’d find. And even if they ran all the prints they found, not everyone has been fingerprinted so there might not be records to match. I was only fingerprinted twenty years ago when I wanted to volunteer at my childrens’ school and they ran a background check. But, getting rid of her head was a good idea because everyone has some form of photo ID, dental records, etc. 

[Umbelina]

10 minutes ago, magemaud said:

Unless the van had been wiped clean, Marilyn’s prints were probably only one of dozens that they’d find. And even if they ran all the prints they found, not everyone has been fingerprinted so there might not be records to match. I was only fingerprinted twenty years ago when I wanted to volunteer at my childrens’ school and they ran a background check. But, getting rid of her head was a good idea because everyone has some form of photo ID, dental records, etc. 

True.

Bottom line is Marilyn's prints are useless without something to match them to.  Also, Philip and Elizabeth have ALWAYS wiped down cars they leave behind, them not showing that particular drudgery doesn't mean it didn't happen.  On the contrary, since it always happens, I feel pretty confident that it happened this time as well.

However her prints and description would be useful, someone knows her.  Without a head, she'll be a Jane Doe forever. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Umbelina

[hellmouse]

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Paige is being groomed to be an Officer, she won't always have mommy or granny around, she will follow orders from Center, the same way Elizabeth does.  The problem is?  Paige isn't even good at being a low-level asset, like a Marilyn. 

Your post was all very helpful - thank you! I think I am reacting to exactly what you said here. I can't envision Paige as an Officer because she just shows no aptitude for it. If she were a Soviet citizen there's no way they'd be investing so much time in her. But maybe they are willing to invest the time because an American citizen is that valuable to them. 

[Umbelina]

That's exactly why they are, that, and the fact that Elizabeth is flat out lying to them about her progress, she's even lying to Granny.  If she'd told Granny that after 3 years of intensive one-on-one training Paige can't even get a name tag right?

It would be over for Paige and a new plan made, or at least Paige would have a better trainer, one that wasn't emotionally invested, but even that would create issues since Paige's only motivation seems to be pleasing her mommy.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

True, but in the beginning, that's how ALL spies are trained.  Just like she was training Hans really.  Memorization of faces, names, license plates, shoes, how someone walks and how to follow and detect being followed?  Tradecraft 101.  Along with disguises, taking photos, equipment, all the rest.  If you can't do what that FBI guy did?  Know every single vehicle in the vicinity and reel them all off quickly and accurately?  You can't be a spy.  At all.

That's why Paige staring directly at that sailor's name tag for several minutes and getting it WRONG was so concerning to Elizabeth.

If you are cut out for spying?  There is not a chance in hell you would get that wrong.  That was a gimme, if she can't get that right, what are the chances of her noticing a specific car, or someone following her on a busy street?  Zip.

(Sorry, I'm in the middle of some great spy books right now, most written by former long-term spies, and that specific aspect of early training is make-or-break for potential spies.  If they can't do it, accurately and well?  They go to analyst or desk jobs.) 

As Elizabeth told Philip, she didn't make those kind of mistakes, she caught on fast when she was being trained.  THAT is what trainers are supposed to look for, incredible memory, fast recall, being able to observe and watch almost like a computer or camera would, without looking like you are doing that.  That's part of the reason Elizabeth (and Philip) and all operations spies are chosen.  A HUGE, MASSIVE part of it.

 

Wow. I knew that was important but I never knew that was such an early way of sorting people. The nametag seemed important to me but even I didn't realize how important. What a great thing for them to drop right away--assuming they knew this background which they obviously should. It seems small. It is small for a civilian. But it's something that would have gotten her put on a different track from her parents right away. (And her parents also had to master a second language, another skill most spies have but is not required of Paige.) There was no reason to put something that blatant in in that ep since Paige was already failing to keep hold of her ID. Then Elizabeth never even told Paige she did it, much less put her through more memory training drills.

When Elizabeth told Philip that Paige got a name wrong she didn't give him any context. Of course he'd come to Paige's defense--he always thinks she's brilliant. He'd be able to come up with times when they made a mistake on a name where it wasn't so bad. Hell, for all we know Philip might have imagined Paige reeling off a list of 28 people and their birthdays what they were wearing and getting one name slightly off. But there's no way it was something like this, where they had a nametag in front of their eyes for several minutes and then got the first initial and last name wrong when it came time to repeat it. In the second season when they go after Baklanov Philip positions himself across the hall from him as he makes a phone call, gets the number from watching him dial and walks away with the number.

One of the fundamental false assumptions behind Paige's whole training and the 2nd gen program is that these kids are somehow Russian because their parents are. Not only would Paige never be getting this kind of attention as a Soviet citizen, she'd never be given so much trust as an American one. Especially not right away. (The fact that she can't speak Russian would always make them an outsider to them as well--this ep even underlined that with Harvest and Philip.)

So to review, in 3 years time and enough training that Paige is actually working in the field on dangerous operations Paige:

Reacts to someone walking away with her fake KGB-issued picture ID by apologizing to her mom. Can't accurately reproduce a last name and first initial after a prolonged look at it. Can't stay in her position if she hears something scary, like gunshots. Forgets a cover identity in a moment of stress. Let's part of her cover slip in front of an audience when spooked in a bar. Comes upon a scene of a struggle where one person was murdered and sees nothing to conflict a cover story of suicide even when someone asks her to think about that. Believes that spies only kill in literal defense of their lives. Believes spies rarely die on the job. Doesn't have a realistic idea of how honeytrapping is used.

Her successes include: Ability to walk down a hall and work a hidden camera by squeezing her purse. Doing surveillance where nothing goes wrong. Driving away when receiving a signal to drive away.

Might also add that while she gets annoyed at her mother not being grateful for her offer to gather information from a random congressional intern, it does not occur to her to help out by hanging around at Thanksgiving and keeping her brother distracted from her mom's (and later Dad's) absence. Maybe driving him to his friend's house so Stan doesn't. In fact, she wanted to go to Chicago herself, obviously giving no thought at all to the family cover.

These are a lot of red flags in a 2 month period. Yet at the end of it Elizabeth tells her to move forward. And the whole conversation is about Paige's commitment and how she feels. It seems she's never had to prove she's actually learned those lessons of the past. Elizabeth and Paige are both only focused on whether or not she really wants this.

 

3 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

One reason may be that she's afraid if Paige is ever questioned by the FBI or any other American Law Enforcement Agency, Paige will tell them anything that she tells Paige. So maybe she wants to protect herself and Phil and Henry by ensuring Paige doesn't know any of the stuff that would cause them great harm.

If Elizabeth is thinking along those lines then she's admitted Paige isn't a spy, hasn't she? What's the point of her if she can't know stuff. She already does. For instance, Paige might not know that Elizabeth killed several security guards in that warehouse but she knows they broke in there. She doesn't know Elizabeth murdered the general but she knows Elizabeth was the one who tried to "stop him from committing suicide." The only thing Elizabeth's really shielding is herself.

Edited May 15, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Wow. I knew that was important but I never knew that was such an early way of sorting people. The nametag seemed important to me but even I didn't realize how important. What a great thing for them to drop right away--assuming they knew this background which they obviously should. it seems small. It is small for a civilian. But it's something that would have gotten her put on a different track from her parents right away. There was no reason to put something that blatant in in that ep since Paige was already failing to keep hold of her ID. Then Elizabeth never even told Paige she did it, much less put her through more memory training drills.

 

 

 

If Elizabeth is thinking along those lines then she's admitted Paige isn't a spy, hasn't she? What's the point of her if she can't know stuff. She already does. For instance, Paige might not know that Elizabeth killed several security guards in that warehouse but she knows they broke in there. She doesn't know Elizabeth murdered the general but she knows Elizabeth was the one who tried to "stop him from committing suicide." The only thing Elizabeth's really shielding is herself.

Honestly, at the time I didn't get it that clearly either.  I went on line and searched for "best spy novels ever written" and just ordered a ton of them from betterworldbooks.com.  One that I just finished was great, one of the best for me, because it focused on KGB and CIA.  It's the sequel to Red Sparrow (which now I really want to read as well!)  It's called Palace of Treason and quite a bit of the book turned out to be about just this topic.  They needed an agent to help coordinate and communicate with a KGB Officer who is spying for the CIA now, because she's so completely disgusted with Putin and what's happening in Russia.  So, anyway, they end up with a recruit who excels at both spotting tails and being one, and throughout the book, those skills are used by nearly all of the characters, including an inept Chief of Station in Moscow who nearly blows everything.  I highly recommend that book, Jason Mathews, CIA for 30 years wrote it.

--

Elizabeth has to know Paige is unsuited for this work, I honestly don't know what she's thinking, other than maybe her, or Granny's tough love will eventually somehow train into her the instincts she was not born with.  The mother in her would have pulled the plug by now.  The best spy in her would have too.  Instead, she's letting it go on, maybe as a legacy because she thinks she's going to die soon?  Someone to carry on the work she's given her life for?  Elizabeth isn't thinking clearly, so perhaps exhaustion and knowing she's screwed either way here with her coup job is also playing into her poor decision making.

ETA @sistermagpie

Exactly right about the keeping her cool when the General was shot being critical as well.  Screaming out "mom" and failing to stay with the vehicle?  HUGE errors!  

Spies, in training, usually wash out during the final test (according to Bob Baer) after being thrown into the swamp and trying to survive on nothing for days at a time.  If they call for rescue (hit the panic button) they are out immediately, even if wounded.  Those that make it out, leeches and all, soaking wet with no sleep, very little food or water?  Are immediately told to type up a minute report about every single detail of the past 3-4 days, while exhausted and without food/water/bath/dry clothes.  Those reports are then thrown in the trash and the Officer handling them berates them, screaming in their faces what losers they are (individually, they are separated) and to do it again.  Around the 4th report later, usually at least a day later, the report is accepted.  It's pretty much the final step, and it's all about operating under stress, do you lose it, or do you remain calm and do your job? 

So yeah, Paige is failing on all levels, and Elizabeth is failing as well, she's much to soft with Paige, even if Paige might be capable?  She's being coddled, probably much too much.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Umbelina

[smartymarty]

On 5/10/2018 at 3:09 PM, sistermagpie said:

They got rid of her head and her hands so it was impossible to identify her.

Of course, this means that if authorities find the head and hands, they'll know what body they came from, whereas if P&E had dumped the whole body, the authorities might not be able to connect it to this caper.

[qtpye]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

When Elizabeth told Philip that Paige got a name wrong she didn't give him any context. Of course he'd come to Paige's defense--he always thinks she's brilliant. He'd be able to come up with times when they made a mistake on a name where it wasn't so bad. Hell, for all we know Philip might have imagined Paige reeling off a list of 28 people and their birthdays what they were wearing and getting one name slightly off. But there's no way it was something like this, where they had a nametag in front of their eyes for several minutes and then got the first initial and last name wrong when it came time to repeat it. In the second season when they go after Baklanov Philip positions himself across the hall from him as he makes a phone call, gets the number from watching him dial and walks away with the number.

Phillip puts Paige on quite a pedestal. I think it is because he thinks Paige is like Elizabeth without the hard life and therefore a more innocent sweet version of Elizabeth. I think it was right before the fight scene with her that he began to realize that she did not have her mom's quick thinking or savvy and could be quite the dopey when it came to logical thinking under stressful situations.

[Ina123]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Honestly, at the time I didn't get it that clearly either.  I went on line and searched for "best spy novels ever written" and just ordered a ton of them from betterworldbooks.com.  One that I just finished was great, one of the best for me, because it focused on KGB and CIA.  It's the sequel to Red Sparrow (which now I really want to read as well!)  It's called Palace of Treason and quite a bit of the book turned out to be about just this topic.  They needed an agent to help coordinate and communicate with a KGB Officer who is spying for the CIA now, because she's so completely disgusted with Putin and what's happening in Russia.  So, anyway, they end up with a recruit who excels at both spotting tails and being one, and throughout the book, those skills are used by nearly all of the characters, including an inept Chief of Station in Moscow who nearly blows everything.  I highly recommend that book, Jason Mathews, CIA for 30 years wrote it.

--

Those are from the Red Sparrow Trilogy. The third in the trilogy, The Kremlin's Candidate, came out in February. I'm in the middle of listening to that one.

If you like really true spy books you should check out anything about the most successful spy ever, Kim Philby. Look up the spy ring "Cambridge Five". It's fascinating.

[Ina123]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

So yeah, Paige is failing on all levels, and Elizabeth is failing as well, she's much to soft with Paige, even if Paige might be capable?  She's being coddled, probably much too much.

 

Remember, Elizabeth was training Hans. Hans came down off a building too soon and was possibly seen (at a distance). Elizabeth told Hans he was out because he was seen. Hans wanted it so badly he went out and killed the guy who possibly could ID him. He went back to Elizabeth and told her he solved the problem. Hans was back in.

She treated Hans that way over just a possibility of ID. She pampers Paige with her overwhelming mistakes.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Ina123

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

Phillip puts Paige on quite a pedestal. I think it is because he thinks Paige is like Elizabeth without the hard life and therefore a more innocent sweet version of Elizabeth. I think it was right before the fight scene with her that he began to realize that she did not have her mom's quick thinking or savvy and could be quite the dopey when it came to logical thinking under stressful situations.

I think he saw it before then- when he clearly realized she couldn’t see the truth about the General’s suicide. Even with him basically handing her the answer. He was not impressed with her. At all. Or Elizabeth for that matter. 

I’ve never really thought Philip put Paige on a pedestal. I think he admired that she pursued her interest in the church contrary to what she knew her parents wanted- because he hoped it meant she could think for herself. Other than that- offhand- I don’t see it. Paige has mostly caused him a lot of headaches- telling the truth to Pastor Tim, Matthew, etc. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Erin9

[Erin9]

11 hours ago, hellmouse said:

Your post was all very helpful - thank you! I think I am reacting to exactly what you said here. I can't envision Paige as an Officer because she just shows no aptitude for it. If she were a Soviet citizen there's no way they'd be investing so much time in her. But maybe they are willing to invest the time because an American citizen is that valuable to them. 

That’s all I can come up with- being American means too much to them that they’re overlooking the huge liabilities she clearly brings with her. If Gabriel could guess Paige should’ve been left out of this, my guess is Claudia can too. Reading people is in their job description. 

Truth is- it was highly unlikely Paige would be a brilliant spy. It’s not genetic. Most kids are not brilliant at the same things their parents are in- be it job skills, sports, etc. It was always a long shot imo. 

[dubbel zout]

1 minute ago, Erin9 said:

Truth is- it was highly unlikely Paige would be a brilliant spy. It’s not genetic. Most kids are not brilliant at the same things their parents are in- be it job skills, sports, etc. It was always a long shot imo. 

Paige simply doesn't have the temperament to be a spy. All the desire in the world on her part won't change that.

[Erin9]

3 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Paige simply doesn't have the temperament to be a spy. All the desire in the world on her part won't change that.

She doesn’t. You either have it or you don’t.  Not that she strikes me as passionate. Interested, perhaps. Maybe desperate judging from her conversation with her mom.  She had more passion for the church than this imo. 

Paige does want to make the world better,  but I wonder if she feels like spying is all there is for her. The only place she fits. Even though she really doesn’t. 

I’m not sure why I’m thinking of this, but I remember in S2 her talking about her “crazy” life to that girl on the bus. I didn’t see it. It seemed so over the top. I guess it could be chalked up to her being a teen, but still. Her parents worked weird hours. They didn’t have family. (You don’t have to be spies to not have much in the way of family.) That was about it. It really wasn’t crazy imo. Says a lot about Paige though if that’s all it takes. 

[SunnyBeBe]

It seems that Elizabeth might feel that she doesn't have to give Paige all the gory details of what the job entails, because if Paige is committed enough, hardcore enough and totally devoted to the cause, then, doing whatever she has to do, will be something that Paige accepts when the time comes.  Crazy reasoning to me, but, that's all I got on why she's handling it the way she is.(Although, maybe E thinks that working in a white collar sort of spy job will insulate her from the stickier side of the job.)  It leaves a lot up to chance.  Plus, does Paige have any firearms training or is she going to kill the guy with her bare hands? lol 

Edited May 15, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Pink-n-Green]

@Umbelina, I recommend Nelson DeMille's "The Charm School" if you are interested in spy fiction.  It fits in with The Americans in a way because it is about a secret location in the Soviet Union where Red Army officers are trained to "be American".  It's a little outdated since it takes place during the cold war but it is really, really good.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Pink-n-Green

[hellmouse]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

One of the fundamental false assumptions behind Paige's whole training and the 2nd gen program is that these kids are somehow Russian because their parents are. Not only would Paige never be getting this kind of attention as a Soviet citizen, she'd never be given so much trust as an American one. Especially not right away. (The fact that she can't speak Russian would always make them an outsider to them as well--this ep even underlined that with Harvest and Philip.)

 

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

That’s all I can come up with- being American means too much to them that they’re overlooking the huge liabilities she clearly brings with her. If Gabriel could guess Paige should’ve been left out of this, my guess is Claudia can too. Reading people is in their job description. 

Truth is- it was highly unlikely Paige would be a brilliant spy. It’s not genetic. Most kids are not brilliant at the same things their parents are in- be it job skills, sports, etc. It was always a long shot imo. 

These two points are the major flaw in the KGB's 2nd gen system. These children are not Russian. They will not have the same loyalty to the USSR or to communist ideology that their parents do. And spying is not genetic. Even Philip's brother (don't get me started!) said that Philip was much smarter than him and we can assume that's why the brother is not in the KGB but Philip is. Even though their father was a guard at a KGB family, they weren't both recruited. 

Gabriel knew Paige shouldn't do it. Philip knew Paige shouldn't do it. Elizabeth sees that Paige can't do it. Heck, Marilyn (RIP) saw that Paige couldn't do it. But Elizabeth is lying to Paige and Claudia and Philip about Paige's abilities. She's setting Paige up for a massive failure, and by extension, setting herself up for a massive heartbreak when something terrible inevitably happens to her daughter down the line. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by hellmouse

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

 

These two points are the major flaw in the KGB's 2nd gen system. These children are not Russian. They will not have the same loyalty to the USSR or to communist ideology that their parents do. And spying is not genetic. Even Philip's brother (don't get me started!) said that Philip was much smarter than him and we can assume that's why the brother is not in the KGB but Philip is. Even though their father was a guard at a KGB family, they weren't both recruited. 

Gabriel knew Paige shouldn't do it. Philip knew Paige shouldn't do it. Elizabeth sees that Paige can't do it. Heck, Marilyn (RIP) saw that Paige couldn't do it. But Elizabeth is lying to Paige and Claudia and Philip about Paige's abilities. She's setting Paige up for a massive failure, and by extension, setting herself up for a massive heartbreak when something terrible inevitably happens to her daughter down the line. 

 

So, this week or next?

Edited May 15, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Ina123]

17 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

@Umbelina, I recommend Nelson DeMille's "The Charm School" if you are interested in spy fiction.  It fits in with The Americans in a way because it is about a secret location in the Soviet Union where Red Army officers are trained to "be American".  It's a little outdated since it takes place during the cold war but it is really, really good.

Agreed.

[hellmouse]

14 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

So, this week or next?

Oh gosh, I wasn't even thinking of it happening that soon. But for dramatic purposes, it should be seen in the show. It might be in the final episode when Paige can't successfully execute a plan to get herself out of the country (or even out of DC) to elude the FBI. I picture Elizabeth and Philip waiting for her somewhere and finally deciding they have to leave without her. And then they see a news bulletin on TV and Paige has been arrested. But I don't know if that would be heartbreaking, though. I think that would make Elizabeth angry. 

So I guess it will be next week or the week after!

[Erin9]

37 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

@Umbelina, I recommend Nelson DeMille's "The Charm School" if you are interested in spy fiction.  It fits in with The Americans in a way because it is about a secret location in the Soviet Union where Red Army officers are trained to "be American".  It's a little outdated since it takes place during the cold war but it is really, really good.

I just found the e-book in my library. Thanks! 

[SunnyBeBe]

I can't envision Paige getting killed, because imo P and E would just dissolve.  In that case, they may as well just fold, because their life would be so pointless. I'm not sure that even E would have the strength to continue with that happening. 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Remember, Elizabeth was training Hans. Hans came down off a building too soon and was possibly seen (at a distance). Elizabeth told Hans he was out because he was seen. Hans wanted it so badly he went out and killed the guy who possibly could ID him. He went back to Elizabeth and told her he solved the problem. Hans was back in.

She treated Hans that way over just a possibility of ID. She pampers Paige with her overwhelming mistakes.

Yes, now it seems like Hans was maybe there in part to provide a contrast eventually. He didn't get all the attention Paige gets, didn't get long talks in the kitchen to discuss how well he slept after a mission, didn't get cozy afternoons watching movies and evenings making dinner. He was self-motivated and knew what he was doing and why, could be counted on as the main lookout. And still when he made a mistake and was seen he was blown until he took care of it himself. And still got killed.

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I think he saw it before then- when he clearly realized she couldn’t see the truth about the General’s suicide. Even with him basically handing her the answer. He was not impressed with her. At all. Or Elizabeth for that matter. 

I’ve never really thought Philip put Paige on a pedestal. I think he admired that she pursued her interest in the church contrary to what she knew her parents wanted- because he hoped it meant she could think for herself. Other than that- offhand- I don’t see it. Paige has mostly caused him a lot of headaches- telling the truth to Pastor Tim, Matthew, etc. 

There have been times when I think they've shown Philip putting her on a pedestal. They're little things, but when he talked about her as a kid he said she was always graceful and Elizabeth had to remind him that she was a klutz. Also when they were talking about Jared being dropped into some foreign country and Elizabeth worried that their own kids would be dead in a few hours in that case Philip said that Paige could "outthink" anyone. (Henry he just said was a kid but in a few years...who knows?) Even here when Elizabeth tried to put the "she's not cut out for this" opinion on him he jumped to her defense and said he never said she couldn't do it, just that she shouldn't. He also told Gabriel that Paige was "strong, like her mother."

I think he does see her as having Elizabeth's basic skills, though he doesn't seem completely blind to her flaws. He was annoyed with her about the general and her attitude about fighting. The great thing about how much he often thinks she's great is that when he shows contempt for her it's so genuine. But I don't think he thinks she's a washout either at this point. He seems more worried about Paige having to suffer the soul death that he's suffered. He winced at the story about the bar but neither he nor Elizabeth had a talk about how they've got an incompetent on the job. That's the conversation they need to have.

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

She doesn’t. You either have it or you don’t.  Not that she strikes me as passionate. Interested, perhaps. Maybe desperate judging from her conversation with her mom.  She had more passion for the church than this imo. 

Paige does want to make the world better,  but I wonder if she feels like spying is all there is for her. The only place she fits. Even though she really doesn’t. 

I’m not sure why I’m thinking of this, but I remember in S2 her talking about her “crazy” life to that girl on the bus. I didn’t see it. It seemed so over the top. I guess it could be chalked up to her being a teen, but still. Her parents worked weird hours. They didn’t have family. (You don’t have to be spies to not have much in the way of family.) That was about it. It really wasn’t crazy imo. Says a lot about Paige though if that’s all it takes. 

I remember that conversation well because a lot of people wondered what on earth she meant. It seemed like she was just saying life itself was too crazy for her to handle and so she needed this leader and framework to "put it all" into and make sense of it. She couldn't handle a suburban middle class adolescence with parents who worked crazy hours without throwing herself completely into the church.

But you're also right that she really doesn't seem passionate about spying at all and that just can't be a mistake of the writing. If they wanted Paige to be passionate they'd write her like Elizabeth. They wouldn't have her just say she's "into it" like she's said a couple of times or be so completely blase about major mistakes. This conversation with Elizabeth is the one time she's really said where she was coming from and there was nothing passionate about it at all. Nobody dealing with a recruit objectively would have walked away feeling like they'd committed. Hans was more committed in any one of his scenes even when he wasn't talking about it. His whole demeanor was different. The only time Paige even seemed anything like that was when she was telling her mother about the sailor and that seemed imo to be more about Paige playing the part of the seasoned vet who'd encountered an unforseen problem that she was distancing herself from than her being actually worried about the ID being lost.

It's amazing to compare her to Henry confronted with a problem his father hasn't been able to fix. He goes away and comes back with a whole practical plan he's outlined and already put into motion. He's really effortlessly shown more basic spy skills in his few scenes just this season than Paige has--although he wasn't infallible since he sang like a bird to Stan without realizing it.

[Erin9]

I’m not sure what else there is to say about Martha. We saw her getting her long wanted child. Seems like enough. 

But I was content with never seeing her in Russia at all. It added a little bit, but it never seemed necessary to me. Mostly I liked knowing she understood the reality of things with Clark. But- again- not needed. 

[Erin9]

@sistermagpie 

I see your point, but I still have difficulty thinking of Philip putting her on  a pedestal. Those were, as you say, little things. And he certainly sees her flaws as a person. I think he’d be much more blind to her faults if he really put her on a pedestal. But- he’s not. He’s never gone way over the top in terms of praise. 

I can’t make too much out of  his comment that he told Elizabeth that she shouldn’t spy- not that she couldn’t do it. I say that because that was always his central argument. And it’s clear to me that he sees some of her weaknesses in his recent conversations about the General, how she’s into it (spying) and not like him, her sparring skills, etc. He’s not blind to her. Also, he is not as aware as Elizabeth is of how poorly she’s doing as a spy anyway. 

From the POV that Paige is cause oriented to a fault, like her mom, she is strong. If you consider that strong. I think Philip is seeing that differently now per Oleg and how loyalty can be used. 

But- I don’t think Philip really has E on a pedestal either. He admired her for her dedication. (I think he admires that about her less now.) But he disagreed with her too much for me to think he really had her on a pedestal. He saw her pretty clearly. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Erin9

[dubbel zout]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But I don't think he thinks she's a washout either at this point. He seems more worried about Paige having to suffer the soul death that he's suffered. He winced at the story about the bar but neither he nor Elizabeth had a talk about how they've got an incompetent on the job. That's the conversation they need to have.

I don't think Elizabeth has been honest with Philip about how unsuited to spying Paige is, so it's not surprising he doesn't think Paige is a washout. Maybe Elizabeth thinks Philip will be too angry with her for continuing to try to train Paige, or she's too embarrassed to admit to anyone Paige is hopeless. Whatever the reason, the crux is Elizabeth doesn't want to have to admit she was wrong about Paige. And maybe she's afraid of what will happen to Paige if Paige isn't a spy. 

[Door County Cherry]

Unless your Paige thoughts directly relate to events this episode, please take the general Paige discussion (i.e. whether she's an asset or an agent) to her thread.

Thank you!

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

@Umbelina, I recommend Nelson DeMille's "The Charm School" if you are interested in spy fiction.  It fits in with The Americans in a way because it is about a secret location in the Soviet Union where Red Army officers are trained to "be American".  It's a little outdated since it takes place during the cold war but it is really, really good.

 

I read it when it first came out.  I loved it.  At the time, spies were saying, or TPTB were saying, "nah, all fiction, didn't happen" but lately many have admitted that Charm Schools certainly did exist in the USSR, and probably still exist in Russia, complete with bowling alley, and defected Americans helping them with American English skills.

4 hours ago, hellmouse said:

 

These two points are the major flaw in the KGB's 2nd gen system. These children are not Russian. They will not have the same loyalty to the USSR or to communist ideology that their parents do. And spying is not genetic. Even Philip's brother (don't get me started!) said that Philip was much smarter than him and we can assume that's why the brother is not in the KGB but Philip is. Even though their father was a guard at a KGB family, they weren't both recruited. 

Gabriel knew Paige shouldn't do it. Philip knew Paige shouldn't do it. Elizabeth sees that Paige can't do it. Heck, Marilyn (RIP) saw that Paige couldn't do it. But Elizabeth is lying to Paige and Claudia and Philip about Paige's abilities. She's setting Paige up for a massive failure, and by extension, setting herself up for a massive heartbreak when something terrible inevitably happens to her daughter down the line. 

 

This episode is all about why Paige can't do it, and Elizabeth making the decision in that final conversation that "it's up to Paige" and kinda-sorta being more honest with her about it.  They showed this dangerous mission, which went all kinds of wrong, which they knew would probably go wrong, and they also knew they would do it anyway, because those were Center's orders, and for Elizabeth, also because that guy was not only "one of them" but also, in her secret Coup plan.

Basically it was a heavy reminder to Elizabeth just WHAT life she was giving Paige here, and giving it to Paige knowing that she isn't GOOD at basic spying trade-craft, hell, forget good, she's completely inadequate.

My main question from the way they have set this table about Paige's skills, and Elizabeth's choices here?  WHY in that final scene did Elizabeth (the outstanding professional) or Elizabeth (the mother) not be honest with Paige, which is essentially going to send Paige to her death, and to horrors she's not only completely unprepared for emotionally, but also completely unskilled to carry out?

In other words, is Elizabeth so desperate to leave Paige as her legacy, that she's willing to let her first child be eaten up from the system and probably die from stupid errors? 

Apparently, that answer is yes.

 

 

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I just found the e-book in my library. Thanks! 

It's very good.  If they show wasn't ending I'd suggest a book thread.  I have read many spy novels over the years, but not lately, so just decided to google and ordered many of those I've missed over the years.    https://www.npr.org/2005/02/02/4474061/librarians-picks-the-best-in-spy-fiction   

http://www.oregonlive.com/books/index.ssf/2015/04/best_spy_novels_by_real-life_s.html

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I can't envision Paige getting killed, because imo P and E would just dissolve.  In that case, they may as well just fold, because their life would be so pointless. I'm not sure that even E would have the strength to continue with that happening. 

I don't know, that final scene pretty much was Elizabeth saying she was willing to accept Paige's death at some point, as long as Paige died for "the cause."  The rest kind of goes in the one of the ending threads.

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, now it seems like Hans was maybe there in part to provide a contrast eventually. He didn't get all the attention Paige gets, didn't get long talks in the kitchen to discuss how well he slept after a mission, didn't get cozy afternoons watching movies and evenings making dinner. He was self-motivated and knew what he was doing and why, could be counted on as the main lookout. And still when he made a mistake and was seen he was blown until he took care of it himself. And still got killed.

There have been times when I think they've shown Philip putting her on a pedestal. They're little things, but when he talked about her as a kid he said she was always graceful and Elizabeth had to remind him that she was a klutz. Also when they were talking about Jared being dropped into some foreign country and Elizabeth worried that their own kids would be dead in a few hours in that case Philip said that Paige could "outthink" anyone. (Henry he just said was a kid but in a few years...who knows?) Even here when Elizabeth tried to put the "she's not cut out for this" opinion on him he jumped to her defense and said he never said she couldn't do it, just that she shouldn't. He also told Gabriel that Paige was "strong, like her mother."

I think he does see her as having Elizabeth's basic skills, though he doesn't seem completely blind to her flaws. He was annoyed with her about the general and her attitude about fighting. The great thing about how much he often thinks she's great is that when he shows contempt for her it's so genuine. But I don't think he thinks she's a washout either at this point. He seems more worried about Paige having to suffer the soul death that he's suffered. He winced at the story about the bar but neither he nor Elizabeth had a talk about how they've got an incompetent on the job. That's the conversation they need to have.

I remember that conversation well because a lot of people wondered what on earth she meant. It seemed like she was just saying life itself was too crazy for her to handle and so she needed this leader and framework to "put it all" into and make sense of it. She couldn't handle a suburban middle class adolescence with parents who worked crazy hours without throwing herself completely into the church.

But you're also right that she really doesn't seem passionate about spying at all and that just can't be a mistake of the writing. If they wanted Paige to be passionate they'd write her like Elizabeth. They wouldn't have her just say she's "into it" like she's said a couple of times or be so completely blase about major mistakes. This conversation with Elizabeth is the one time she's really said where she was coming from and there was nothing passionate about it at all. Nobody dealing with a recruit objectively would have walked away feeling like they'd committed. Hans was more committed in any one of his scenes even when he wasn't talking about it. His whole demeanor was different. The only time Paige even seemed anything like that was when she was telling her mother about the sailor and that seemed imo to be more about Paige playing the part of the seasoned vet who'd encountered an unforseen problem that she was distancing herself from than her being actually worried about the ID being lost.

It's amazing to compare her to Henry confronted with a problem his father hasn't been able to fix. He goes away and comes back with a whole practical plan he's outlined and already put into motion. He's really effortlessly shown more basic spy skills in his few scenes just this season than Paige has--although he wasn't infallible since he sang like a bird to Stan without realizing it.

Yes, it certainly does explain all the time with Hans, contrasting Elizabeth's skills and attitude as a trainer. 

Philip doesn't know how bad Paige is, neither does Granny, Elizabeth has only told them carefully worded half truths, she's hiding that as much as she's hiding the Coup plan.

Yes, that final scene with Paige in this episode was so odd.  Seriously?  "I'm lonely" and "Spying is cool?"  WTF?  Elizabeth, where is your head?

Yes, lots of contrasts played out in the last few episodes, Henry competent, Paige in FAR over her head, both parents vastly different reactions to their children's plans for their futures, as well as their present lives.

(Sorry mods, this stuff did play out in a huge way in this episode, and is a season long theme, I tried to stick to this episode here, but I'd already quoted everyone before I got to your note.)

Will take the rest of the Paige-centric conversation to her thread.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I see your point, but I still have difficulty thinking of Philip putting her on  a pedestal. Those were, as you say, little things. And he certainly sees her flaws as a person. I think he’d be much more blind to her faults if he really put her on a pedestal. But- he’s not. He’s never gone way over the top in terms of praise. 

 

That phrase may be overselling it, really. It's more just that as her father he doesn't have a strictly objective view of her either, even if he's not as deep into denial as Elizabeth is. But, as was pointed out above, he also has more of an excuse if he imagines her as doing better than she is. Elizabeth is the one training her. She's the one reporting she's good at stuff. Hearing things second hand Philip might be able to imagine scenarios that make it better--and when he can't he does show it. Like with her story about the fight or with the general.

I can't help but wonder how Philip would have reacted if Paige told *him* that her biggest fear was being alone and that she told herself she'd meet somebody. Usually when she's expressed that fear to him he's just said he thinks she's lovable. But if he really thought she was doing this to find love I wonder what he'd do. Elizabeth didn't go into this looking for love. She actively wanted to substitute the Cause for relationships. She probably just doesn't see it as a big deal at this point if Paige never finds true love--plus she can imagine her finding a Gregory. At the same time I almost can't imagine Philip being able to just blatantly tell her that in this business being afraid of being alone just makes you easy to manipulate. Nobody knows that better than Philip. 

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

In other words, is Elizabeth so desperate to leave Paige as her legacy, that she's willing to let her first child be eaten up from the system and probably die from stupid errors? 

 

Yeah, that really is a question because I wonder if she even knows exactly why she's so desperate about it. She wasn't afraid to fire Hans. She let Lucia die when she put herself above the Cause even regarding her "own goddamned country." She just saw Philip being miserable. When they got the call for this job Paige demanded to know why she couldn't go to. Elizabeth said it wouldn't look good but she also knew it was too dangerous. If Paige needs to be protected from this stuff, how can she be a spy? 

With Philip it seems like she got to a place where she was able to work with him despite caring about him (a problem she laid out in S1) because she trusts his abilities. She'd be worried about Paige the whole time. Her plan now seems to be to try to keep her half protected and half in the dark for her whole life. If she can just get her that job in the State Department she can imagine she'll never see any bad parts of the job. Even though Paige just told her that, in fact, her worst fear is something that would be central to that quiet life at the State Department Elizabeth imagines. 

22 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Philip doesn't know how bad Paige is, neither does Granny, Elizabeth has only told them carefully worded half truths, she's hiding that as much as she's hiding the Coup plan.

Yes, that final scene with Paige in this episode was so odd.  Seriously?  "I'm lonely" and "Spying is cool?"  WTF?  Elizabeth, where is your head?

Yes, lots of contrasts played out in the last few episodes, Henry competent, Paige in FAR over her head, both parents vastly different reactions to their children's plans for their futures, as well as their present lives.

Henry's not only more competent here but more passionate about his immediate goal now that I think about it. When Paige showed some initiative it was when she met a guy she thought was cute and hoped to make that actually a job. She's been told for a while that she's supposed to eventually work in the State Department or whatever but seemed to show no interest in the idea until Elizabeth told her to apply for it. She wants to just be doing what Mom does now, she doesn't have an eye toward the future.

Henry, by contrast, might not have a super specific job in mind yet but he's thinking about the bigger picture already. He's self-motivated. He's thought out problems--he didn't just say "I'll get a summer job" like a child, he knew he had to make serious money for tuition, probably asked around or remembered something his friend said in the past etc. He's excited about his future but also not getting ahead of himself. 

I still can't completely put my finger on exactly why Elizabeth is so willing to cover up Paige's problems. Of course I can think of general reasons why one might do that but I don't feel like I completely feel where it's coming from--and maybe that hasn't been revealed yet. Not only is she rejecting a chance to keep her daughter safe because she's not cut out for this she must know she's risking her life even more than usual because of that. Her life and everyone else's. What of the Cause? How can she curse them with someone like Paige? She doesn't have a problem letting Henry be an American. It seems like there could be so many weird things swirling around there with the way she's acting about Paige. 

Speaking of contrasts, there's that really interesting speech of Harvest's to his parents. Philip is listening to it--will he be the parent where the kid knows what he did for him and loves him or the son of a bitch who deserves a terrible death? I assume Philip assumes the latter, particularly regarding Henry to whom he wasn't able to even really say good-bye when he abandoned him at Thanksgiving. (He'd have imagined Henry never seeing him again after that.) Yet when Henry is talking to Stan he actually touches on the same themes, albeit in a far lighter way. He talks about his friend's mother, describing her as practically the antithesis of Elizabeth and suggesting that's a good thing. Like she's the parent who *didn't* sacrifice for him. With Philip he seems unable to just dismiss him the same way since he can see he makes an effort.

Of course, that could change when he learned the truth so I wouldn't say Harvest's speech predicts Henry one way or another. But then, even though Harvest loved his mother he apparently abandoned her too. 

[Umbelina]

During Harvest's goodbye to his parents, I honestly thought of Philip's OWN parents, rather than Philip AS a parent.

I'm hoping that means that next episode we will see Philip transmitting the messages or thinking about them, and that sends him into a flashback of his own parents, the mother he loved, and perhaps the asshole son of a bitch Gulag guard his dad?

Please please please show, finally resolve Philip's childhood! 

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

During Harvest's goodbye to his parents, I honestly thought of Philip's OWN parents, rather than Philip AS a parent.

I'm hoping that means that next episode we will see Philip transmitting the messages or thinking about them, and that sends him into a flashback of his own parents, the mother he loved, and perhaps the asshole son of a bitch Gulag guard his dad?

Oh man, I hope so. I definitely did think about his mother when Harvest said, "Sorry I left like that." Did Philip do that? Elizabeth said she wasn't supposed to tell anyone when she was recruited.

[skippylou]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's amazing to compare her to Henry confronted with a problem his father hasn't been able to fix. He goes away and comes back with a whole practical plan he's outlined and already put into motion. He's really effortlessly shown more basic spy skills in his few scenes just this season than Paige has--although he wasn't infallible since he sang like a bird to Stan without realizing it.

Henry trusts Stan.   Henry didn't trust the wierdo offering them a ride in season one but Paige did.  Ended up hitting him over the head with a beer bottle and this was 7 or 8 years ago.  Henry has good instincts.   Whatever else he might think, Henry has no real reason to suspect his parents are enemies of America.  

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

That phrase may be overselling it, really. It's more just that as her father he doesn't have a strictly objective view of her either, even if he's not as deep into denial as Elizabeth is. But, as was pointed out above, he also has more of an excuse if he imagines her as doing better than she is. Elizabeth is the one training her. She's the one reporting she's good at stuff. Hearing things second hand Philip might be able to imagine scenarios that make it better--and when he can't he does show it. Like with her story about the fight or with the general.

I can't help but wonder how Philip would have reacted if Paige told *him* that her biggest fear was being alone and that she told herself she'd meet somebody. Usually when she's expressed that fear to him he's just said he thinks she's lovable. But if he really thought she was doing this to find love I wonder what he'd do. Elizabeth didn't go into this looking for love. She actively wanted to substitute the Cause for relationships. She probably just doesn't see it as a big deal at this point if Paige never finds true love--plus she can imagine her finding a Gregory. At the same time I almost can't imagine Philip being able to just blatantly tell her that in this business being afraid of being alone just makes you easy to manipulate. Nobody knows that better than Philip. 

Yeah, that really is a question because I wonder if she even knows exactly why she's so desperate about it. She wasn't afraid to fire Hans. She let Lucia die when she put herself above the Cause even regarding her "own goddamned country." She just saw Philip being miserable. When they got the call for this job Paige demanded to know why she couldn't go to. Elizabeth said it wouldn't look good but she also knew it was too dangerous. If Paige needs to be protected from this stuff, how can she be a spy? 

With Philip it seems like she got to a place where she was able to work with him despite caring about him (a problem she laid out in S1) because she trusts his abilities. She'd be worried about Paige the whole time. Her plan now seems to be to try to keep her half protected and half in the dark for her whole life. If she can just get her that job in the State Department she can imagine she'll never see any bad parts of the job. Even though Paige just told her that, in fact, her worst fear is something that would be central to that quiet life at the State Department Elizabeth imagines. 

Henry's not only more competent here but more passionate about his immediate goal now that I think about it. When Paige showed some initiative it was when she met a guy she thought was cute and hoped to make that actually a job. She's been told for a while that she's supposed to eventually work in the State Department or whatever but seemed to show no interest in the idea until Elizabeth told her to apply for it. She wants to just be doing what Mom does now, she doesn't have an eye toward the future.

Henry, by contrast, might not have a super specific job in mind yet but he's thinking about the bigger picture already. He's self-motivated. He's thought out problems--he didn't just say "I'll get a summer job" like a child, he knew he had to make serious money for tuition, probably asked around or remembered something his friend said in the past etc. He's excited about his future but also not getting ahead of himself. 

I still can't completely put my finger on exactly why Elizabeth is so willing to cover up Paige's problems. Of course I can think of general reasons why one might do that but I don't feel like I completely feel where it's coming from--and maybe that hasn't been revealed yet. Not only is she rejecting a chance to keep her daughter safe because she's not cut out for this she must know she's risking her life even more than usual because of that. Her life and everyone else's. What of the Cause? How can she curse them with someone like Paige? She doesn't have a problem letting Henry be an American. It seems like there could be so many weird things swirling around there with the way she's acting about Paige. 

Speaking of contrasts, there's that really interesting speech of Harvest's to his parents. Philip is listening to it--will he be the parent where the kid knows what he did for him and loves him or the son of a bitch who deserves a terrible death? I assume Philip assumes the latter, particularly regarding Henry to whom he wasn't able to even really say good-bye when he abandoned him at Thanksgiving. (He'd have imagined Henry never seeing him again after that.) Yet when Henry is talking to Stan he actually touches on the same themes, albeit in a far lighter way. He talks about his friend's mother, describing her as practically the antithesis of Elizabeth and suggesting that's a good thing. Like she's the parent who *didn't* sacrifice for him. With Philip he seems unable to just dismiss him the same way since he can see he makes an effort.

Of course, that could change when he learned the truth so I wouldn't say Harvest's speech predicts Henry one way or another. But then, even though Harvest loved his mother he apparently abandoned her too. 

I hadn’t thought about that at all: what Philip might have said to Paige if she’d confessed that she was afraid of being alone. Eek! True. No one knows better than Philip how dangerous that can be, the things you’ll do to avoid being alone again. Martha! I’m not sure he could have been that blunt with her either, but I think he’d have something to say. And not just brush it aside. Philip has gotten more and more direct with her in words (the General conversation) and action (sparring) this season. He’d surely respond. 

I’m not sure I fully get where Elizabeth’s head is at with Paige either. She knows Paige doesn’t have the skills, she knows Paige doesn’t truly understand what she’s getting into, she knows she’s more of a liability than asset to the cause, she knows Paige is likely to get herself or someone else caught or killed quickly. She sorta tried to give her an out, but it was a lame attempt at best. Not sure I get it. Except she was ordered to train Paige and even a half hearted attempt to give her an out was probably big for her.

She’s lied about Paige’s skills, but has admitted to Philip that she may not be cut out for it- albeit without giving him all the details. But she hasn’t shared that opinion with Paige or Claudia. Interesting really. Not fully sure why that is. If she can admit it to herself and Philip why not anyone else? Of course, admitting that to them is a much bigger deal. But still. What is she thinking? 

I could see Philip thinking about both his mother and his kids in Harvest’s speech. I’m sure he thought worst case scenario in terms of the kids. No one really appreciates  Philip now sadly. Highly unlikely the full truth will improve his image in their eyes. At least from his POV. And that may well be how it plays out in reality. Wouldn’t surprise me. Philip always seems to get screwed. 

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

If there is another time jump, I would imagine it would involve Paige and Henry at their grownup jobs. 

I don't think Philip and Elizabeth survive.

I want to see how Martha is doing.  I am disappointed that we haven't seen Martha at all this season.

I have figured, pretty much from the get-go, that it will all end badly for everyone. Whether or not that means Philip and Elizabeth survive, or they reap what they sowed, while seeing how their handlers lied to them, I don't know.

As for Martha, I do have a certain interest in what happens to her after Glasnost, but I don't think we're going to get that far. And I was fine with her semi-happy ending (getting the child she always wanted, even if she's exiled and living a life she didn't want - she's a strong woman.)

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

There have been times when I think they've shown Philip putting her on a pedestal. They're little things, but when he talked about her as a kid he said she was always graceful and Elizabeth had to remind him that she was a klutz. Also when they were talking about Jared being dropped into some foreign country and Elizabeth worried that their own kids would be dead in a few hours in that case Philip said that Paige could "outthink" anyone. (Henry he just said was a kid but in a few years...who knows?) Even here when Elizabeth tried to put the "she's not cut out for this" opinion on him he jumped to her defense and said he never said she couldn't do it, just that she shouldn't. He also told Gabriel that Paige was "strong, like her mother."

See, now I never thought that Philip really thought she could do it, I took his swiftly added equivocal statement was more an appeasement of Elizabeth than his true belief.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

In other words, is Elizabeth so desperate to leave Paige as her legacy, that she's willing to let her first child be eaten up from the system and probably die from stupid errors? 

Apparently, that answer is yes.

I think we're being shown Elizabeth's rigidity due to her single-minded focus as an officer of the KGB. She's given her life to the cause, and willingly set her child on a similar path. She has her doubts, but has no clue how to deal with them. Her feelings as a mother conflict with her expertise as an operative, and she cannot reconcile them.

She is totally incapable of telling Paige to do something that is contrary to what Elizabeth's superiors expect of her. Perhaps she's even afraid that if she admits Paige is a bust, they'll harm Paige in some way. So she offers half-truths, hoping that they will be enough to dissuade Paige, and when they don't - she does what she knows how to do. She gives Paige a mission, her own emotions be damned. She makes the choice, I'm sure she knows subconsciously, that will lead to grief, but she can't see a way to a different path.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, skippylou said:

Henry trusts Stan.   Henry didn't trust the wierdo offering them a ride in season one but Paige did.  Ended up hitting him over the head with a beer bottle and this was 7 or 8 years ago.  Henry has good instincts.   Whatever else he might think, Henry has no real reason to suspect his parents are enemies of America.  

Oh, I agree. I was using that as an example just to say that it's not like Henry is cartoonishly good as a spy, suspicious of everyone. He's human, he trusts people he has reason to trust even as he's also shown really good instincts that would translate really well into fieldwork in where Paige doesn't shine.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I hadn’t thought about that at all: what Philip might have said to Paige if she’d confessed that she was afraid of being alone. Eek! True. No one knows better than Philip how dangerous that can be, the things you’ll do to avoid being alone again. Martha! I’m not sure he could have been that blunt with her either, but I think he’d have something to say. And not just brush it aside. Philip has gotten more and more direct with her in words (the General conversation) and action (sparring) this season. He’d surely respond. 

Yeah, if you look at Philip's sources loneliness is probably his number one thing he zeroes in on. It's also maybe the reason that his sources wind up still attached to him. (Elizabeth's sources are most attached to her when they're inspired by her, I guess, like Gregory.) He's often working with loners and the lonely. And clearly he understands them because he is one. He makes those choices too.

Though it's interesting that even if Paige shares that loneliness she doesn't seem like she's driven by the same things Philip is. When Henry hit the guy with the bottle to protect Paige he seemed like Philip. When he summed up the talk of Aunt Helen by saying when the chips were down you have to be there for your family it seemed like it called back to that, especially since Henry had just been somewhat complaining about his family.

Paige, by contrast, instinctively ratted her parents out to Pastor Tim because they posed a threat to the person she was trying to be. They maybe posed a threat to the person Paige was trying to be as a member of Pastor Tim's group. She didn't completely condemn them--she hoped to have it both ways. Then Elizabeth framed protecting the family into a higher duty for her and Paige basically let them (her parents and the Tims) battle it out.

Henry talked about his father's problems with Stan, but he knows Stan is his father's good friend. He had good reason to think he was talking to someone safe. He wasn't talking to Pastor Tim, he was talking to Uncle Stan.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

She’s lied about Paige’s skills, but has admitted to Philip that she may not be cut out for it- albeit without giving him all the details. But she hasn’t shared that opinion with Paige or Claudia. Interesting really. Not fully sure why that is. If she can admit it to herself and Philip why not anyone else? Of course, admitting that to them is a much bigger deal. But still. What is she thinking? 

It's a little like the necklace, maybe--why did she want him to know about the pill, exactly? (Had she not told him he probably would have demanded to know if she had one of those after Harvest died.)

For years the way P&E worked was they always tended to take the opposite side as the other to put them on an even keel. Then there's other things where they have a different view and came to rely on that other perspective. Without Philip Elizabeth seems unable to argue the opposite side for herself, either on Gorbachev or killing people or Paige. Maybe it was telling when she made Philip's argument about Paige being about her being incompetent. He started making those arguments long before she'd even tried and hasn't been part of her training anyway. But maybe that was a moment when Elizabeth would have been open to some arguments against Paige but unfortunately Philip didn't get the cue. She needed him to speak for the part of herself who knew Paige was a wash out. That's also the thing she tentatively told Philip about Paige getting the name wrong, contrasting it to herself.

I remember reading about a security camera in a store where there was a fire in the corner and shoppers just kept shopping even when they obviously looked at it. Finally one person happened to look at it at the same time as someone else. They then looked at each other as if to confirm what they were seeing. Then they freaked out and everyone ran out of the store. I would love a moment where Philip and Elizabeth had a fire moment with Paige where they were both in sync and saw each other see the garbage fire that was Paige is action. (Cue reactions like the end of To Serve Man on The Twilight Zone.)

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I could see Philip thinking about both his mother and his kids in Harvest’s speech. I’m sure he thought worst case scenario in terms of the kids. No one really appreciates  Philip now sadly. Highly unlikely the full truth will improve his image in their eyes. At least from his POV. And that may well be how it plays out in reality. Wouldn’t surprise me. Philip always seems to get screwed. 

Seriously. So far a lot of the stuff Elizabeth has done that fans thinks are terrible have gotten her nothing but rewards with Paige. Henry has identified her as a problem, but his opinion of Philip seems potentially more humiliating so it's not like Philip's winning there either. Plus a lot of viewers dismiss any thing Philip does with Henry anyway because Stan is his spiritual father! Stan is the only adult in the whole world who talks to him or cares about him at all!

45 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

See, now I never thought that Philip really thought she could do it, I took his swiftly added equivocal statement was more an appeasement of Elizabeth than his true belief.

Interesting! He did also say to Gabriel--maybe right after he said she was strong, like her mother, that Paige grew up in the US and therefore couldn't be expected to do this.

Maybe there is a shared thing going on there with them. I mean, let's think about this. Elizabeth and Philip are Directorate S. They were picked out of their provincial schools because of their personal excellence. They were put into a brutal training program most people don't make it through. But they did and went on to become incredibly successful agents in that elite group--they were even put in the top place geographically, right in DC.

Is it possible neither of them can accept they could produce a child who was inept at this? Especially Elizabeth since she so identifies with Paige?

[Pink-n-Green]

10 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I just found the e-book in my library. Thanks! 

Good!  You will love it!

[RedHawk]

21 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I can't envision Paige getting killed, because imo P and E would just dissolve.  In that case, they may as well just fold, because their life would be so pointless. I'm not sure that even E would have the strength to continue with that happening. 

That is exactly why I imagine Paige dying in front of Elizabeth, or Elizabeth and Phillip. 

[lazylou]

On May 13, 2018 at 4:47 PM, MissBluxom said:

When it comes to real spies attempting to alter their appearances, I once read that one spy admitted one of the most effective techniques they had was to put a small stone in one of their shoes.

Turns out that forced them to walk with a slight limp. But that simple device and that simple limp turned out to be the single most memorable thing about them whenever the authorities would ask people what they remembered about that person. Invariably, the very first thing they said was, "They had a limp. So you should be on the lookout for an older person with a limp."

The benefit was actually twofold. Not only did the limp tend to throw the authorities off the scent of the real spy. But it also made them seem highly inoffensive. Not dangerous. Not someone to be feared. Someone to just let pass through any checkpoints. This spy said that any time they encountered some authorities and they were limping, the authorities tried to let them pass as quickly as possible so they could move on to someone who was a serious suspect.

That has always amazed me. It really says something about human nature. A simple stone. A simple limp. And you are judged to be non-threatening.

Pretty neat. Pretty neat. Pretty good. Pretty good.  (my little tribute to Jim Morrison).

I have found that I recognize people I know fairly well from quite a distance by the way they move.  It has always bothered me that Stan saw Elizabeth moving down the street in one of the earlier seasons...just prior to her being shot...and did not think...wow!  Is that Elizabeth?  Or, maybe my memory misleads and he did not actually observe her but was in a distant car.  

[Ina123]

2 hours ago, lazylou said:

I have found that I recognize people I know fairly well from quite a distance by the way they move.  . .. 

I've found that is true also. We just pick up on their movements without even realizing it.

My sister once said after looking at CCTV of a robbery that she couldn't see faces so what's the point? Sometimes we can pick up a lot even without seeing a face.