S06.E07: Harvest

[magemaud]

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

We never see any neighbors in the other parts of the buildings. I think we are meant to believe that they are single family homes.

Thanks for clarifying this, but now I’m supposed to believe travel agents and FBI agents can afford such big houses in the DC suburbs? 

[Sarah 103]

36 minutes ago, magemaud said:

Thanks for clarifying this, but now I’m supposed to believe travel agents and FBI agents can afford such big houses in the DC suburbs? 

My understanding (and someone older can feel free to correct me if necessary) is that the suburb they are in is good but that it was not nearly as expensive in the 1980s as the neighborhood would be today. 

[magemaud]

My husband was astounded when he heard Matthew Rhys on a talk show speaking with a Welsh accent. 

[duVerre]

On 5/11/2018 at 7:45 PM, AllyB said:

... have we seen P&E in a disguise that shows them to be a completely different age before? I can't really remember it if they have. So I have the feeling that in some way, the disguises that they wore on the plane home from Chicago were the writers way of showing a glimpse of a future that will never be. Philip and Elizabeth are never going to be that retired couple, so for just a few minutes we got to see what those golden years could have looked like. 

This is a beautiful thought and it makes the wigs work for poetic reasons.

They didn't work for me on a logical level, because disguises with grey hair suggest that the wearers are in their 50s or 60s. And those decades involve changes to the skin--not just in the face, but hands and necks. I was immediately struck, for instance, by the contrast between Elizabeth's all-over layer of grey (not a single shock, which women can get even in their 20s) and her hands (seen in close-up while she's drawing). Her hands are twenty years too young. And even though Elizabeth is haggard these days, her face is much too young as well.

Or was that not grey but a nightmare job of peroxide streaks (failed rocker chick) or the frosted look?

Edited May 13, 2018 by duVerre
clarity, as usual

[AllyB]

3 hours ago, duVerre said:

And even though Elizabeth is haggard these days, her face is much too young as well.

Elizabeth's face was aged up in those scenes. Her Nasolabial folds and vertical chin creases were much more pronounced. It wasn't so noticeable in the shots of her face from the aisle but when she said 'Someone is making me learn,' you could see it. Her hands definitely looked too young though and I'm not sure but her neck and décolletage probably hadn't been aged up much either.

[dubbel zout]

For the purposes of the airplane flight, aging just their faces and hair is sufficient, IMO. No one is going to look at an older couple too closely to make sure everything else matches.

[duVerre]

8 hours ago, AllyB said:

Elizabeth's face was aged up in those scenes. Her Nasolabial folds and vertical chin creases were much more pronounced. It wasn't so noticeable in the shots of her face from the aisle but when she said 'Someone is making me learn,' you could see it. 

I agree that you could see folds and creases in her face, but I don't think that is because E made up her face to emphasize them. If there's a way to create those lines and folds that is also undetectable at close range, I've never heard of it. (Over footlights, or in some fanciful situation with a professional make-up artist and personal lighting technician following you around is another matter.) Instead, I think it is simply the cruelty of the light from an airplane window on a woman of Elizabeth's age. It's the very definition of unfiltered light, and it finds a hundred more lines in any face than anyone knew were there. So my point is the same--for the grey wig to work, the light from the window would have had to find many more lines to match it. 

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

For the purposes of the airplane flight, aging just their faces and hair is sufficient, IMO. No one is going to look at an older couple too closely to make sure everything else matches.

Even if I accept that E aged her face (and I don't think she did), you'd think that at least the flight attendant might notice--taking her ticket, walking up and down the aisle, glancing up and down when s/he checks that the trays are up and all that stuff. It seems to be a careless and an unnecessary risk. Why not just wear an age-appropriate wig and be done with it?

I like your point, though, that people don't look at old people very closely. Like most seniors, I endure this daily. Depending on the day, it's depressing or freeing.

Edited May 13, 2018 by duVerre
had an extra thought

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, magemaud said:

My husband was astounded when he heard Matthew Rhys on a talk show speaking with a Welsh accent. 

Until recently, I'd only ever seen Rhys on shows in which he played an American (Brothers and Sisters, and this show), so it was a delightful shock to me. I think Welsh is my favorite accent from the British Isles.

51 minutes ago, duVerre said:

I agree that you could see folds and creases in her face, but I don't think that is because E made up her face to emphasize them. If there's a way to create those lines and folds that is also undetectable at close range, I've never heard of it. (Over footlights, or in some fanciful situation with a professional making-up artist and personal lighting technician following you around is another matter.) Instead, I think it is simply the cruelty of the light from an airplane window on a woman of Elizabeth's age. It's the very definition of unfiltered light, and it finds a hundred more lines in any face than anyone knew were there. So my point is the same--for the grey wig to work, the light from the window would have had to find many more lines to match it. 

Even if I accept that E aged her face (and I don't think she did), you'd think that at least the flight attendant might notice--taking her ticket, walking up and down the aisle, glancing up and down when s/he checks that the trays are up and all that stuff. It seems to be a careless and an unnecessary risk. Why not just wear an age-appropriate wig and be done with it?

I wouldn't think the attendant would notice anything at all. The attendant a people mover, busy getting people on, getting them settled, and making sure everything is in place. They scan for things that could cause problems for the plane. Nice hands isn't one of them.

[magemaud]

Adding several years to their ages by wigs and make up seems to be a pretty elaborate disguise for just a two hour plane ride. 

[duVerre]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I wouldn't think the attendant would notice anything at all. The attendant a people mover, busy getting people on, getting them settled, and making sure everything is in place. They scan for things that could cause problems for the plane. Nice hands isn't one of them.

That's a good point. But I think that no one notices until they do. I remember when I had a job working cash in Montreal. I noticed hands only because they were holding money (not many credit cards in those days). Hundreds of hands a day, and I didn't necessarily connect them with faces...until the day I saw a young, harried mother in what looked like Salvation Amy clothes. On her hand was a very impressive, expensive-looking ring. I don't know why but I just happened to notice, and then I thought about her a long time, wondering about the contrast and what her story was.  Now let's suppose that woman was going about trying to convince people she was poor and she actually was not. Would it have been smart to take the ring off?  By the same token, is wearing a wig that ages you up about 20 years, when you don't have time to age yourself up in other ways, running an unnecessary risk? To me, it is. 

A lot of us notice when a woman has had a face-lift and her neck and hands don't match her face. By the same token, I think there would be a risk of people noticing a the mismatch in the opposite direction. Anyone. Not just a flight attendant.

 

15 minutes ago, magemaud said:

Adding several years to their ages by wigs and make up seems to be a pretty elaborate disguise for just a two hour plane ride. 

I agree. An age-appropriate wig is the choice two expert spies would make. A gifted spy would  choose a wig that would not present a problem, as opposed to a wig that has a chance, however remote, of doing just that. Why make a confident guess of "oh, no one who sees us will notice that!" when you can nail things down so there is nothing to notice?

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Until recently, I'd only ever seen Rhys on shows in which he played an American (Brothers and Sisters, and this show), so it was a delightful shock to me. I think Welsh is my favorite accent from the British Isles.

 

I was astounded to hear his real accent. His American accent is one of the most convincing I've heard from the British Isles. (Damian Lewis is another.)

[Clanstarling]

19 minutes ago, duVerre said:

That's a good point. But I think that no one notices until they do. I remember when I had a job working cash in Montreal. I noticed hands only because they were holding money (not many credit cards in those days). Hundreds of hands a day, and I didn't necessarily connect them with faces...until the day I saw a young, harried mother in what looked like Salvation Amy clothes. On her hand was a very impressive, expensive-looking ring. I don't know why but I just happened to notice, and then I thought about her a long time, wondering about the contrast and what her story was.  Now let's suppose that woman was going about trying to convince people she was poor and she actually was not. Would it have been smart to take the ring off?  By the same token, is wearing a wig that ages you up about 20 years, when you don't have time to age yourself up in other ways, running an unnecessary risk? To me, it is. 

A lot of us notice when a woman has had a face-lift and her neck and hands don't match her face. By the same token, I think there would be a risk of people noticing a the mismatch in the opposite direction. Anyone. Not just a flight attendant.

Good points as well. In fact, I was thinking (as I wrote) that at least she didn't wear a big honking ring that would draw attention to her hands.

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, magemaud said:

Adding several years to their ages by wigs and make up seems to be a pretty elaborate disguise for just a two hour plane ride. 

 

2 hours ago, duVerre said:

 

A lot of us notice when a woman has had a face-lift and her neck and hands don't match her face. By the same token, I think there would be a risk of people noticing a the mismatch in the opposite direction. Anyone. Not just a flight attendant.

 

I agree. An age-appropriate wig is the choice two expert spies would make. A gifted spy would  choose a wig that would not present a problem, as opposed to a wig that has a chance, however remote, of doing just that. Why make a confident guess of "oh, no one who sees us will notice that!" when you can nail things down so there is nothing to notice?

 

It's exactly the kind of thing a spy would do.  Especially spies who just tried to save a Russian illegal and killed two FBI agents in the process.  Not to mention that Philip knows his FBI neighbor is getting suspicious.

They were on a flight from a city they weren't supposed to be in.  Descriptions of them were out from the day laborers they hired.  They escaped, airports, trains, and bus stations would have additional surveillance.

I'm reading a couple of books written by former CIA station chiefs right now, and in one, they describe a disguise much like this, saying "it wouldn't hold up for long term close range recruiting, but it was perfect to fool distance or casual surveillance at the airport."  Elizabeth may not just have lines on her face, she could also have silicone devices to change facial shape, as well as clever make up.

In other words, spies would not use something like that for a situation like Martha or the Artist, but most definitely would use those kinds of disguises to travel, or while following others, things like that.  For close up work, other methods were better.

Spies are very very good with disguises of all kinds, it's a huge part of their training, they know what works.  Inserts for jowls, teeth changes, cheek changes, moles, lifts in shoes to create limps, wigs, facial marks (like Elizabeth's in Chicago) and even facial appliances to fool facial recognition tech today. 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[duVerre]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

 

It's exactly the kind of thing a spy would do.  Especially spies who just tried to save a Russian illegal and killed two FBI agents in the process.  Not to mention that Philip knows his FBI neighbor is getting suspicious.

They were on a flight from a city they weren't supposed to be in.  Descriptions of them were out from the day laborers they hired.  They escaped, airports, trains, and bus stations would have additional surveillance.

I'm reading a couple of books written by former CIA station chiefs right now, and in one, they describe a disguise much like this, saying "it wouldn't hole up for long term close range recruiting, but it was perfect to fool distance or casual surveillance at the airport." 

In other words, spies would not use something like that for a situation like Martha or the Artist, but most definitely would use those kinds of disguises to travel, or while following others, things like that.  For close up work, other methods were better.

Spies are very very good with disguises of all kinds, it's a huge part of their training, they know what works.  Inserts for jowls, teeth changes, cheek changes, moles, lifts in shoes to create limps, wigs, facial marks (like Elizabeth's in Chicago) and even facial appliances to fool facial recognition tech today. 

 

I obviously wouldn’t deny what has actually been done by spies in the past. I know that spies are brilliant at what they do, and that elaborate disguise is part of that. I’m also not arguing that P and E didn’t need to drastically change their look. And fast.

So maybe the problem is that, as a loyal viewer, I have a hard time understanding why, in the universe of this show, spies who always seem to have as many wigs as they need available to them round the clock would--this time--wear something more slapdash, something that will pass at a distance, but no more. I mean, why choose a wig that raises a question (lack of aged skin) that it can’t answer? P and E seem to have every kind of wig in the world available to them (I'm reflecting the spy life in The Americans here, not actual, nonfiction spy life) so why settle for something that involves a risk? Though circumstances conspire against it, there is always a risk that someone, for some reason, will take a good, hard look at you.

It confuses me because, especially in this "wig case," I feel like the imaginative world of the show--the show that takes reality and pushes the boundaries with it--has given me two characters who do what spies really do, but at a genius level in the hair department....so much so that AV Club (or Vulture? Can't remember) features a "wig report" with every recap. 

Umbelina, did the disguise you’re referring to (“much like this”) involve creating the illusion of old age? (Just if you happen to remember …. Don’t research back in the book for my sake.) Do you remember the decade? (Wigs have gotten more convincing as the decades go on.)

Edited May 13, 2018 by duVerre
because there's always something

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, duVerre said:

I obviously wouldn’t deny what has actually been done by spies in the past. I know that spies are brilliant at what they do, and that elaborate disguise is part of that. I’m also not arguing that P and E didn’t need to drastically change their look. And fast.

So maybe the problem is that, as a loyal viewer, I have a hard time understanding why, in the universe of this show, spies who always seem to have as many wigs as they need available to them round the clock would--this time--wear something more slapdash, something that will pass at a distance, but no more. I mean, why choose a wig that raises a question (lack of aged skin) that it can’t answer? P and E seem to have every kind of wig in the world available to them (I'm reflecting the spy life in The Americans here, not actual, nonfiction spy life) so why settle for something that involves a risk? Though circumstances conspire against it, there is always a risk that someone, for some reason, will take a good, hard look at you.

It confuses me because, especially in this "wig case," I feel like the imaginative world of the show--the show that takes reality and pushes the boundaries with it--has given me two characters who do what spies really do, but at a genius level in the hair department....so much so that AV Club (or Vulture? Can't remember) features a "wig report" with every recap. 

Umbelina, did the disguise you’re referring to (“much like this”) involve creating the illusion of old age? (Just if you happen to remember …. Don’t research back in the book for my sake.) Do you remember the decade? (Wigs have gotten more convincing as the decades go on.)

Yes, changing age appearance is obviously useful.  They weren't trying to look OLD, they were trying to looker OLDER, late fifties instead of late forties.

They had all kinds of things to use, as I said, things to make jowls, and make up shading can do a lot as well, increasing undereye shadows and bags, whatever.  I just posted a video in the real spy thread.  They were capable of doing much more, including applying silicone faces.  One spy was changed from a white man to an African tribal leader in South Africa around this same time. 

They would have access to all of that stuff, not just wigs and mustaches.  Port wine marks could be made with a solution on the face or hands that would bring out that look.  The KGB would have given their embedded spies every possible tool they would need, just as the CIA does.

[Ellaria]

Editing because this posted in error

Edited May 13, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[MisterBluxom]

When it comes to real spies attempting to alter their appearances, I once read that one spy admitted one of the most effective techniques they had was to put a small stone in one of their shoes.

Turns out that forced them to walk with a slight limp. But that simple device and that simple limp turned out to be the single most memorable thing about them whenever the authorities would ask people what they remembered about that person. Invariably, the very first thing they said was, "They had a limp. So you should be on the lookout for an older person with a limp."

The benefit was actually twofold. Not only did the limp tend to throw the authorities off the scent of the real spy. But it also made them seem highly inoffensive. Not dangerous. Not someone to be feared. Someone to just let pass through any checkpoints. This spy said that any time they encountered some authorities and they were limping, the authorities tried to let them pass as quickly as possible so they could move on to someone who was a serious suspect.

That has always amazed me. It really says something about human nature. A simple stone. A simple limp. And you are judged to be non-threatening.

Pretty neat. Pretty neat. Pretty good. Pretty good.  (my little tribute to Jim Morrison).

Edited May 13, 2018 by MissBluxom

[sistermagpie]

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They had all kinds of things to use, as I said, things to make jowls, and make up shading can do a lot as well, increasing undereye shadows and bags, whatever.  I just posted a video in the real spy thread.  They were capable of doing much more, including applying silicone faces.  One spy was changed from a white man to an African tribal leader in South Africa around this same time. 

It's funny you said this because reading the exchange I was thinking we should probably just be really grateful they didn't go for blackface because...yipes.

Though of course, that would not have the double meaning that this disguise had with looking like a glimpse into the future. It also kind of hints at Philip's choice in the episode. Like this is the choice that's always going to be made by him.

[duVerre]

8 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

When it comes to real spies attempting to alter their appearances, I once read that one spy admitted one of the most effective techniques they had was to put a small stone in one of their shoes.

Turns out that forced them to walk with a slight limp. But that simple device and that simple limp turned out to be the single most memorable thing about them whenever the authorities would ask people what they remembered about that person. Invariably, the very first thing they said was, "They had a limp. So you should be on the lookout for an older person with a limp."

The benefit was actually twofold. Not only did the limp tend to throw the authorities off the scent of the real spy. But it also made them seem highly inoffensive. Not dangerous. Not someone to be feared. Someone to just let pass through any checkpoints. This spy said that any time they encountered some authorities and they were limping, the authorities tried to let them pass as quickly as possible so they could move on to someone who was a serious suspect.

That has always amazed me. It really says something about human nature. A simple stone. A simple limp. And you are judged to be non-threatening.

Pretty neat. Pretty neat. Pretty good. Pretty good.  (my little tribute to Jim Morrison).

 

This is an actors' trick as well. Or at least with some actors. My ex used a stone in the show to create a limp in some production ... I've forgotten which one ... and a friend of mine who is Method-trained got into a huge argument with him, saying he should have applied a sense memory of what it was like to have hurt his leg in a football game years before , how the pain had felt and how it had affected the way he held himself, muscle by muscle.  She really got very passionate about how much more truthful and real this was. My ex listened, smiling and nodding, and went out there the next night, limping perfectly with the stone still safely in his shoe. 

Edited May 13, 2018 by duVerre

[Pink-n-Green]

58 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

23456543yhhy7890-09i890-=[-po/l..

';';l;'

 

'ybtrewqAq]']='

Hey, don't be posting your secret spy code stuff on here! :D

[Ellaria]

3 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Hey, don't be posting your secret spy code stuff on here! :D

Thanks. Don’t know what happened err. I just edited it.

[Umbelina]

39 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's funny you said this because reading the exchange I was thinking we should probably just be really grateful they didn't go for blackface because...yipes.

Though of course, that would not have the double meaning that this disguise had with looking like a glimpse into the future. It also kind of hints at Philip's choice in the episode. Like this is the choice that's always going to be made by him.

It was far more than that, complete silicone mask, new nose, chin, cheeks, forehead, with of course, contact lenses and body paint used elsewhere, he had to look as if he was from that tribe in order to meet with his agent.  It's one of several funny stories Bob Baer tells in the commentary on RED, the first one, which I highly recommend not just because it's a fun movie, but to listen to the CIA commentary.

[magemaud]

Even though Elizabeth didn't know Philip was going to show up to help in Chicago, wasn't it fortunate they BOTH packed matching age progression wigs? Philip just had a small duffel bag but it must have been chock full of disguises. Nowadays he'd probably be stopped by TSA when they x-rayed his bag. 

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, magemaud said:

Even though Elizabeth didn't know Philip was going to show up to help in Chicago, wasn't it fortunate they BOTH packed matching age progression wigs? Philip just had a small duffel bag but it must have been chock full of disguises. Nowadays he'd probably be stopped by TSA when they x-rayed his bag. 

They would have access to a similar "garage" in Chicago, where disguises would be made available.  Aside from that, we didn't necessarily see their entire conversation.  Philip could have easily asked her what her operational and  get away costume was as well, then or later.

I know it looks like they have no support or help sometimes, but they do, they aren't the only KGB people around, though they may be among a small number of embedded spies posing as Americans.

[jjj]

51 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They would have access to a similar "garage" in Chicago, where disguises would be made available.  Aside from that, we didn't necessarily see their entire conversation.  Philip could have easily asked her what her operational and  get away costume was as well, then or later.

I know it looks like they have no support or help sometimes, but they do, they aren't the only KGB people around, though they may be among a small number of embedded spies posing as Americans.

If they had gone to the Chicago garage'o'wigs, the FBI would have nabbed them -- it was already under surveillance.  Aderholt said this in the preceding episode.  

Edited May 14, 2018 by jjj

[Umbelina]

True.

There would have been other safe houses he hadn't visited though, and the KGB could leave supplies there.  Alternately, when Philip stopped by his own garage to pick things up, he either called Elizabeth or could see which disguises she took with her.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Umbelina said:

There would have been other safe houses he hadn't visited though, and the KGB could leave supplies there.  Alternately, when Philip stopped by his own garage to pick things up, he either called Elizabeth or could see which disguises she took with her.

Although it is funny to imagine him saying, "Just hang on. I'm on my way."

Twenty minutes later.

"Hi, it's me again. So I was going to go with a blonde wig and a goatee. What are you thinking for the ride home?"

I guess that actually didn't happen since she was surprised to see him. Possibly he himself just brought matching outfits knowing that whatever Elizabeth brought wouldn't have one for him.

[jjj]

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

True.

There would have been other safe houses he hadn't visited though, and the KGB could leave supplies there.  Alternately, when Philip stopped by his own garage to pick things up, he either called Elizabeth or could see which disguises she took with her.

I think we just have to fanwink this -- we know Philip did not call her to say he was coming (they said that several times when he arrived), and she said there were moving and stationary agents posted to keep track of him --- and she said  there might be more than they knew about, because "they are all over him."  They would not go near any place he might have been.  And they had not been in contact with him, just observing him and trying to identify the FBI surveillance, which was so extensive that she knew there could be more than they knew. 

[MisterBluxom]

36 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Although it is funny to imagine him saying, "Just hang on. I'm on my way."

Twenty minutes later.

"Hi, it's me again. So I was going to go with a blonde wig and a goatee. What are you thinking for the ride home?"

I guess that actually didn't happen since she was surprised to see him. Possibly he himself just brought matching outfits knowing that whatever Elizabeth brought wouldn't have one for him.

I enjoyed this post. Thanks for the chuckle.

[jjj]

When Elizabeth approached the hotel room door and peered through the peephole  ? -- it would have been amusing if Philip's disguise were good enough to make her wonder.  It would not be that particular disguise that would deceive her, but some more transforming one.  (Graphics added by my device)

[kikaha]

In theory Paige's 'out' could simply be surviving till the USSR falls.  It's already 1987 (?) in The Americans.  So Paige wouldn't have to hold on much longer.   It wouldn't surprise me if in reality some Soviet spies did exactly that, and are living here now. 

I don't find Paige's character so unrealistic.  She is a young idealist, who desperately needs to attach herself to a cause, a movement, that gives her life meaning.  First there was Father Tim's brand of Christianity.  After she got disillusioned with that, communism and the USSR filled the gap.  The sense of family she gets from both is like gold to her.  A perfect dupe for Claudia and Elizabeth, who need all the assets they can get in their holy war against the west.  

Paige's lack of curiosity about the atrocities taking place around her also doesn't seem unrealistic to me.  That mirrors quite well the attitudes of fellow travelers from the time of the Russian Revolution.  They turned a blind eye to the genocide that went on in Russia under Lenin and Stalin, or rationalized it as collateral damage for the workers' utopia the Soviets were supposedly building.  These people included some of America's leading journalists, educators and intellectuals.   Even if Lenin never uttered the words 'useful idiots,' his writing makes it clear that is exactly how he considered them.

[rhys]

I've always thought the Jennings's house & Stan's were mirror images of each other so I got pretty worried when Stan got to feeling around the breaker box in the laundry room. I figured he'd notice a space that was off by a few inches.

I've always thought the Jennings's house & Stan's were mirror images of each other so I got pretty worried when Stan got to feeling around the breaker box in the laundry room. I figured he'd notice a space that was off by a few inches.

[Umbelina]

The space may not be off, but Stan doesn't know which breakers to flip and in which order to open that door.

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, kikaha said:

In theory Paige's 'out' could simply be surviving till the USSR falls.  It's already 1987 (?) in The Americans.  So Paige wouldn't have to hold on much longer.   It wouldn't surprise me if in reality some Soviet spies did exactly that, and are living here now. 

I don't find Paige's character so unrealistic.  She is a young idealist, who desperately needs to attach herself to a cause, a movement, that gives her life meaning.  First there was Father Tim's brand of Christianity.  After she got disillusioned with that, communism and the USSR filled the gap.  The sense of family she gets from both is like gold to her.  A perfect dupe for Claudia and Elizabeth, who need all the assets they can get in their holy war against the west.  

Paige's lack of curiosity about the atrocities taking place around her also doesn't seem unrealistic to me.  That mirrors quite well the attitudes of fellow travelers from the time of the Russian Revolution.  They turned a blind eye to the genocide that went on in Russia under Lenin and Stalin, or rationalized it as collateral damage for the workers' utopia the Soviets were supposedly building.  These people included some of America's leading journalists, educators and intellectuals.   Even if Lenin never uttered the words 'useful idiots,' his writing makes it clear that is exactly how he considered them.

Good points.

A lot of those fellow travelers were shaken by the Soviet non-agression pact with Hitler in 1939. I guess it's one thing to kill your own people, another to make a pact with a Fascist. (it was for ten years, and of course didn't last even a full year)

[stitcher73]

Ooohhh!!! Stan is onto them!   Asking for a sketch of the couple in the Chicago debacle....he is on to them now!!!!!!

[skippylou]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The space may not be off, but Stan doesn't know which breakers to flip and in which order to open that door.

The danger is that Stan realizes that this is not a real breaker box.  It doesn't (can't) turn anything on or off.

[jjj]

This is a really good point about the mirror-image house.  When you are in a unit with the same floor plan as your own, you really notice even minor differences.  Either they dug for a new room or boarded up some existing space to make the secret room.  I was surprised Stan went to the breaker box -- maybe he has a secret room also. ? 

11 hours ago, rhys said:

I've always thought the Jennings's house & Stan's were mirror images of each other so I got pretty worried when Stan got to feeling around the breaker box in the laundry room. I figured he'd notice a space that was off by a few inches.

Edited May 14, 2018 by jjj

[MaryWebGirl]

52 minutes ago, skippylou said:

The danger is that Stan realizes that this is not a real breaker box.  It doesn't (can't) turn anything on or off.

I never thought about this before, but that means there's a real breaker box somewhere else. Isn't it more suspicious to have two breaker boxes in your house than another way to hide your spy stuff? I'm sure the second one is hidden but if they had experts really combing over the house the wiring would give away its location. Or am I just the daughter of an electrical engineer who has an unusual interest in that sort of thing?

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, kikaha said:

Paige's lack of curiosity about the atrocities taking place around her also doesn't seem unrealistic to me.  That mirrors quite well the attitudes of fellow travelers from the time of the Russian Revolution.  They turned a blind eye to the genocide that went on in Russia under Lenin and Stalin, or rationalized it as collateral damage for the workers' utopia the Soviets were supposedly building.  These people included some of America's leading journalists, educators and intellectuals.   Even if Lenin never uttered the words 'useful idiots,' his writing makes it clear that is exactly how he considered them.

I think people are maybe frustrated because we don't even see her ignoring this stuff. Like to me it's clear that she's supposed to have just decided that she's a student of these people and they're giving her the real information. She's not ever been the kind of student who asks questions--she did the same thing with Pastor Tim, just listening to what he said and repeating it. But since it's such an unusual position in 1987 I think people expect to see her have to confront these things one way or another, even if it's to show just how she's learned to brush this stuff off.

But the way it seems to me it looks like Claudia and Elizabeth both have seen that Paige isn't really interested in politics or political theory so they don't have to explain stuff away. Instead pretty much every lesson we see Paige getting is more about family--Claudia and Elizabeth telling stories about themselves and their own lives. She's learning about them and trying to feel like she's part of this family of the Cause. Even when she asks about spying it's like "Is this what WE do? Do OUR PEOPLE do this and that?" 

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:31 PM, Sarah 103 said:

My understanding (and someone older can feel free to correct me if necessary) is that the suburb they are in is good but that it was not nearly as expensive in the 1980s as the neighborhood would be today. 

Do we know where E&P live relative to the travel agency?  I had assumed they were in a close suburb of DC, so that it would be easy to drive to all the places they'd need to access for their various assignments.  Now I'm wondering, because it seemed odd to me that "Harvest" would be living in Skokie but driving all the way to what sounds like Logan Square in the city for work (I heard references to Fullerton, Rockwell, and Milwaukee as streets in the area). 

 

ETA: I read that the Jennings family is supposed to live in Falls Church, VA, while the travel agency is in Dupont Circle.  Kind of a similar distance as the one between Skokie and Logan Square, but since I know Chicago much better, those landmarks still raise my eyebrows.

[calpurnia99]

Everyone says that Elizabeth was trying to talk Paige out of spying, but then why does she not tell Paige any of the bad things?  She certainly didn't tell her that they had to cut the body up and throw it in the river. She never told her about all the people she had to kill and all the bodies she had to get rid of.  All she said was, they died, it doesn't happen a lot but it happens sometimes.  She has completely sugar coated the truth to Paige. Paige knows nothing about what her parents actually do. If she did, she would not commit to it for life, she get the fuck away right now.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, calpurnia99 said:

Everyone says that Elizabeth was trying to talk Paige out of spying, but then why does she not tell Paige any of the bad things?  She certainly didn't tell her that they had to cut the body up and throw it in the river. She never told her about all the people she had to kill and all the bodies she had to get rid of.  All she said was, they died, it doesn't happen a lot but it happens sometimes.  She has completely sugar coated the truth to Paige. Paige knows nothing about what her parents actually do. If she did, she would not commit to it for life, she get the fuck away right now.

I think it's more not that she's trying to talk her out of it but that she's hoping Paige will quit without her having to talk her out of it. Like she can't bring herself to actually reveal all the ugly things about it and herself to Paige, but she hopes that she can still talk about herself like a hero and give an idealized version of things and still feel like she gave Paige a chance to make an informed decision. 

It's really a poor attempt, iow. Elizabeth in this ep sees, it seems, how much Philip gave up for her, for instance, and she responds to it by going to see him and touching his face, but really she just accepts it. Her "you have to decide" scene with Paige seems like another weak gesture. One that's more about making Elizabeth soothe whatever little guilt she might be starting to feel than really decisively protecting anyone.

People tend to talk about Elizabeth having made a "sacrifice" for Philip by taking on "the whole burden" of spying but even there that's a weird definition of sacrifice. It's implying that she's entitled to somebody else doing a job they don't believe in so much that her allowing them retire is a sacrifice. But really she didn't want to retire and kept working because she needs to do it. And here we see the limits that were always obvious in that deal. As long as they were in the US of course she was going to wind up needing Philip again, or "the Cause" would need him again, and he could either be there for her or lose her. Which is pretty much what she's wordlessly telling Paige all the time too. Paige is clearly far less suited for spying than Philip is, but she thinks she can put the responsibility on 19-year-old Paige to know what 40-something Philip and Elizabeth know.

Edited May 14, 2018 by sistermagpie

[dubbel zout]

I think Elizabeth doesn't tell Paige all the bad stuff because Elizabeth is afraid it will change how Paige sees her. It's one thing to know violent/manipulative/sex stuff happens; it's another altogether to realize your mother has done it all. I can't see Paige hearing about honey pots and saying to Elizabeth, "Cool! So that's a really useful skill to have, right?" Or, "You folded a dead body into a suitcase? Can I see some schematics? I'm having a hard time picturing how to do it."

[sistermagpie]

These last  posts made me think about how both Elizabeth and Philip had goodbye moments before this trip. Elizabeth called Henry who noted the importance because she never talks to him. Philip hugged Stan who noticed because...hugging. And despair.

It just struck me that Philip basically knew what he was choosing here and what he wanted to say to Stan and Henry. Or if not actually say he knew how he felt. I'm sorry to Henry. Thanks for everything to Stan.

Where as Elizabeth is still lacking clarity.  I think she wasn't sure what she wanted or didn't in her phone call to Henry. She's trying to tell herself she's ready for death but is really conflicted and trying to have it both ways. So in this ep she's making more half gestures hoping someone will carry it through for her or something but everyone just gives her back what she asks for on the surface. Paige says she wants in. Philip says he's fine. Henry chats to her cheerfully. It's really her that needs to do something. 

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, MaryWebGirl said:

I never thought about this before, but that means there's a real breaker box somewhere else. Isn't it more suspicious to have two breaker boxes in your house than another way to hide your spy stuff? I'm sure the second one is hidden but if they had experts really combing over the house the wiring would give away its location. Or am I just the daughter of an electrical engineer who has an unusual interest in that sort of thing?

I think that's the real breaker box, it's just been modified. 

[jjj]

I agree; I always thought there was a switch or latch within the breaker box that opened the secret door.  

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think that's the real breaker box, it's just been modified. 

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, jjj said:

I agree; I always thought there was a switch or latch within the breaker box that opened the secret door.  

I'm pretty sure we've watched Philip open it.  He flips one "breaker" (obviously disconnected to any power in the house) and then the second (same deal.)  It's flipping them in order that opens the latch.

I'm not an electrician, but that would be fairly easy to do, disconnect those wires, reconnect them to a different breaker, etc.  What is interesting is apparently excavating and building a secret room behind the washroom.  Now, could the KGB do that for them in secret?  Of course, but it would be made exponentially more difficult doing that in a tri-plex rather than a single family house, which is probably why they ignore the fact that it's obviously a triplex.  I think in the beginning of the series they even showed the extra mailboxes.

If nothing else, if they were trying to hide that a bit, the Jennings would use the handy extra two garages, instead of the one car garage they do use, and parking the other on in the driveway (which would BLOCK their neighbors from using their own garages and always did drive me nuts.)

I just have to let the whole house thing go.  It was a non-network, non-premium channel show, that might or might not catch on.  They picked at house that looked like it could be in Falls Church, and went with it.  The floor-plan inside definitely doesn't match the house itself either, for example, their living room would be in the garage I think.

Oh well, again, the show was so good, I just let that part go.  Now, every little thing kind of bugs me more after the shoddy penultimate season.

[dubbel zout]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She's trying to tell herself she's ready for death but is really conflicted and trying to have it both ways.

I can't fault her for that. (I'm not saying you are.) Being actually faced with likely death is very different from thinking about it more abstractly.

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

These last  posts made me think about how both Elizabeth and Philip had goodbye moments before this trip. Elizabeth called Henry who noted the importance because she never talks to him. Philip hugged Stan who noticed because...hugging. And despair.

It just struck me that Philip basically knew what he was choosing here and what he wanted to say to Stan and Henry. Or if not actually say he knew how he felt. I'm sorry to Henry. Thanks for everything to Stan.

Where as Elizabeth is still lacking clarity.  I think she wasn't sure what she wanted or didn't in her phone call to Henry. She's trying to tell herself she's ready for death but is really conflicted and trying to have it both ways. So in this ep she's making more half gestures hoping someone will carry it through for her or something but everyone just gives her back what she asks for on the surface. Paige says she wants in. Philip says he's fine. Henry chats to her cheerfully. It's really her that needs to do something. 

She is halfheartedly (subconsciously?) trying to get Philip to stop her from dying by telling him about the cyanide pill. She doesn't really want to die but she wants someone else to stop her. She's putting the burden of saving her onto Philip, whether she realizes it or not. 

Philip realizes it. I think it's part of what he's reflecting on at the end of the episode. She's his wife. He wants to protect her. How can he protect her from herself?

 

17 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I am not one to cut Elizabeth any slack.  I don't think she has any redeeming qualities whatsoever.  IMO, everything she does is done for "the cause".  Even when she gave Philip the option to opt out, sure it benefited Philip, but a broken down Philip would hardly be useful on any  missions.

Bringing Paige into "the cause" was ill-conceived from the start.  Paige should have been brought all the way in or not brought in at all.

IMO they've treated Paige like an asset rather than an agent. They've handled her. So they never brought her all the way in - because if they knew if they did, she couldn't handle it. But the Centre forced them to bring her in. So they brought her in halfway. It's a problem.

Edited May 14, 2018 by hellmouse

[Anela]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think Elizabeth doesn't tell Paige all the bad stuff because Elizabeth is afraid it will change how Paige sees her. It's one thing to know violent/manipulative/sex stuff happens; it's another altogether to realize your mother has done it all. I can't see Paige hearing about honey pots and saying to Elizabeth, "Cool! So that's a really useful skill to have, right?" Or, "You folded a dead body into a suitcase? Can I see some schematics? I'm having a hard time picturing how to do it."

Yeah, that's what I thought of, too: "Your father was having sex with this woman, and she was killed, so we had to break her bones, and fold her up, burying her in a suitcase. That was one of the harder ones." 

"I forced an old woman to take pills, so that she would die at work, after fixing the mail robot."

"I killed two people in front of their child."

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

How?  Each breaker has its own set of wires running throughout the house, also the main wire coming into the house into that box.  There usually isn't that much slack in electrical wiring.

It's not that hard, even I know that, you just hook those wires up to a different breaker, or add a few.  Any qualified electrician or even a well trained spy could do that.   https://www.familyhandyman.com/electrical/breaker-box/breaker-box-safety-how-to-connect-a-new-circuit/view-all/

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

She is halfheartedly (subconsciously?) trying to get Philip to stop her from dying by telling him about the cyanide pill. She doesn't really want to die but she wants someone else to stop her. She's putting the burden of saving her onto Philip, whether she realizes it or not. 

IMO he realizes it.

I don't think that.  She really wanted to save the "Chicago Philip" and she was simply honest with him about how this operation might not work.  In her way, she was saying goodbye.  Did she (at least in her heart of hearts) want him there, because with him there was a better chance of living and getting Harvest out?  Of course.

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

I still think Elizabeth was trying to get to Philip through Henry, knowing that Henry would talk to Philip about the conversation he had with Elizabeth.  Elizabeth already honey-potted Philip, that wasn't going to work again.

Philip is about as vulnerable as it gets.  His business is failing and he has issues within the marriage.  Henry is Philips department and so is the travel business according to Elizabeth.   How much more can Philip be expected to take on?

The mission that he got suckered into joining ended horribly.  Marilyn's fingerprints are all over that van, I seriously doubt that someone is going to come back to get the van with dead Harvest inside it, and headless/hand-less Marilyn bleeding out on the parking garage floor.

I would like to know why Marilyn wasn't wearing gloves.

 

I really didn't feel that.  She was saying goodbye to the son she's realized she's been ignoring.  She doesn't even know Henry now, certainly didn't know he emotionally is very astute, and most certainly couldn't count on him even telling Philip about the call.

Lots of "goodbyes" in this episode.  Elizabeth to Henry, Elizabeth to Philip, Philip to Stan...

Edited May 15, 2018 by Umbelina