Season 1: Dick Wolf Gives Us NYPD's Finest

[DXD526]

I'm a much bigger fan of the later seasons, but caught "Life Choice" the other day and had forgotten the ending. Stone remarks that only a few years ago, abortion was not the law of the land. If the law hadn't changed, the abortionist would be the one on trial for murder. Robinette counters with: "If the law hadn't changed, I'd be a slave."

Mic drop.

[Spartan Girl]

Oh Paul. You were so awesome. I will never forgive them for replacing you with Pod!Paul.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Spartan Girl

[andromeda331]

Last night they played one of my favorite episodes The Troubles, even though they've been playing the earlier seasons lately on WE I keep missing this episode. The whole episode is really good but I love the end when Ben calls and questions his rebuttal witness.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Last night they played one of my favorite episodes The Troubles, even though they've been playing the earlier seasons lately on WE I keep missing this episode. The whole episode is really good but I love the end when Ben calls and questions his rebuttal witness.

Ben: "There's your human error."

Me: Oh SNAP!

I really loved how Ben held her hands as she described how her family was murdered. I don't think he's ever done in hat before or since.

Sigh...I ❤️ Ben Stone so so much!

Why'd Michael Moriarty have to go Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs??

[Spartan Girl]

If only Moriarty hadn't lost his damn mind....It's incredible to think how differently the show might have progressed with Ben instead of Jack.  Not that I don't like Jack, but still...

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Ben: "There's your human error."

Me: Oh SNAP!

I really loved how Ben held her hands as she described how her family was murdered. I don't think he's ever done in hat before or since.

Sigh...I ❤️ Ben Stone so so much!

Why'd Michael Moriarty have to go Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs??

So do I. He was really gentle with her.  

[topanga]

On 4/20/2016 at 2:35 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

 

Thing is, for me that just makes it even worse. Like Indifference, there are so many people who were reponsible by proxy for what happened in Mushrooms that it would have been impossible to cast a net wide enough to catch them all. Whether you blame the developer's greed, the dealer's willingness to get a child to do his dirty work, the kid's parents for not monitoring the boy much more closely, the schools for not teaching him to read, or society in general, the kid was the one who cost a baby the chance to grow up and put another kid in a wheelchair for life, and they still had to charge him as a juvenile because of his age. And all because he wanted some street cred or something equally stupid.

The early seasons did a great job of addressing the social issues that are at the heart of many crimes. Whether it's an episode like this one or one I recently watched about an officer who shoots and kills an unarmed black suspect (the episode title escapes me). But how timely is that?

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, topanga said:

The early seasons did a great job of addressing the social issues that are at the heart of many crimes. Whether it's an episode like this one or one I recently watched about an officer who shoots and kills an unarmed black suspect (the episode title escapes me). But how timely is that?

"Poison Ivy."

[topanga]

I've been watching a lot of Season 1 episodes lately, and while I enjoy that these early episodes delve into the social and political stories that underlie  crimes, most of the acting (on the part of the day players) is atrocious. I've found that the witnesses/suspects/beat cops/defense lawyers to be dramatic and theatrical, almost comical. It definitely sounds like someone in the director's chair told everyone to "play it big." In later seasons, the actors were more subtle and realistic. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

@topanga, I read this and immediately thought of the arraignment where Ben is talking about the moral fiber of the law or society and you have that hooker in the gallery, telling her pimp how either she or he needs FIBER! I admit, it's cheesy, but it still makes me laugh.

Yes, I'm 12.

[wknt3]

4 hours ago, topanga said:

I've been watching a lot of Season 1 episodes lately, and while I enjoy that these early episodes delve into the social and political stories that underlie  crimes, most of the acting (on the part of the day players) is atrocious. I've found that the witnesses/suspects/beat cops/defense lawyers to be dramatic and theatrical, almost comical. It definitely sounds like someone in the director's chair told everyone to "play it big." In later seasons, the actors were more subtle and realistic. 

Not sure I'd agree about "atrocious" but there were definitely some stylistic differences. I think that part of it was that those early scripts seemed to be very inspired by the Golden Age of Television i.e. televised radio plays that were very stagy and not particularly subtle. I'd bet that many of those day players had a background in theater and not a lot of on camera experience since my understanding was that when L&O started production in NYC was at a low point. So there would be even more tendency to "play it big."

Edited July 18, 2016 by wknt3

[topanga]

1 hour ago, wknt3 said:

Not sure I'd agree about "atrocious" but there were definitely some stylistic differences. I think that part of it was that those early scripts seemed to be very inspired by the Golden Age of Television i.e. televised radio plays that where very stagy and not particularly subtle. I'd bet that many of those day players had a background in theater and not a lot of on camera experience since my understanding was that when L&O started production in NYC was at a low point. So there would be even more tendency to "play it big."

Atrocious was perhaps the wrong word. But it was certainly more theatrical than in later seasons. 

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Not sure I'd agree about "atrocious" but there were definitely some stylistic differences. I think that part of it was that those early scripts seemed to be very inspired by the Golden Age of Television i.e. televised radio plays that were very stagy and not particularly subtle. I'd bet that many of those day players had a background in theater and not a lot of on camera experience since my understanding was that when L&O started production in NYC was at a low point. So there would be even more tendency to "play it big."

Not just that, but remember, L&O began in '90 and, as said here, a lot of the early shows still seemed like '80s holdover stuff (the titles in episodes, the music being much more present, etc.), and that may have included the acting techniques. Look at '80s cop shows and the acting was more "out there", probably because those had a lot of explosions, etc., so the acting followed suit.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't know.  Wolf himself said they used 16 mm cameras and the first season was more like docu-drama, which explains the grainy look of the show. And not so much the 80s, since the cop shows I watched weren't like that.

[WendyCR72]

43 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don't know.  Wolf himself said they used 16 mm cameras and the first season was more like docu-drama, which explains the grainy look of the show. And not so much the 80s, since the cop shows I watched weren't like that.

Yeah, but docu-drama or not, the acting was a bit more overstated than in later seasons. That is what some are saying. And that was played up in other '80s cop fare.

[wknt3]

6 hours ago, topanga said:

Atrocious was perhaps the wrong word. But it was certainly more theatrical than in later seasons. 

Agreed about it being more theatrical. It's just a pet peeve of mine that so many people consider restrained or naturalistic to be automatically superior no matter what. Just look at how many terribly unfunny comedies are on TV these days because of that pernicious prejudice. Sometimes a more stylized or "bigger" approach is a better artistic choice.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I must have taken some stupid pills, because I don't understand what you mean by more theatrical with respect to the first season.  

Other than the shaky camera work at times and the grainy look- I found the first season more...realistic and not as...stylish as succeeding seasons.  The latter had a sheen to them. Plus, I just found Ben's small, cramped office more realistic than Jack's larger, more plush office!?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I must have taken some stupid pills, because I don't understand what you mean by more theatrical with respect to the first season.  

Theater actors, the ones who stick to plays instead of TV work, have to project a lot more in order to be heard in the cheap seats, basically, and since L & O used a lot of people who were on As The World Turns in the first few years (Benjamin Hendrickson, Kathleen Widdoes, Kathryn Hays, etc) they had a lot of people who had been on and off Broadway. As the show progressed, they got more 'name' actors who were accustomed to not playing to the rafters in order to be seen.

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Theater actors, the ones who stick to plays instead of TV work, have to project a lot more in order to be heard in the cheap seats, basically, and since L & O used a lot of people who were on As The World Turns in the first few years (Benjamin Hendrickson, Kathleen Widdoes, Kathryn Hays, etc) they had a lot of people who had been on and off Broadway. As the show progressed, they got more 'name' actors who were accustomed to not playing to the rafters in order to be seen.

No, I get that the show used a lot of theatre actors-my confusion lies with the description of season one, I guess, to the others because I didn't notice the difference. Maybe I'm just a peasant. I did recognize the soap and theatre actors. Hell, I even gave Jane Elliott a shout out in the GH thread, mentioning how she played an AUSA, I think, or DOJ attorney. Let's just say this show used a LOT of actors based/living in New York.

[FormerMod-a1]

I don't see a difference in the acting either, but I do see a difference in camera angles, and score, and things like that.  Season 1 does have a different feel to it, but it's more in the production side for me, than the actors.

Regardless of the above, it also seemed more real to me, with Ben standing at the witness stand and reading from his notes, less dramatics/histrionics from the lawyers.  Later seasons had big speeches, and loud rants, followed with objections and being stricken from the record and so on.  Don't get me wrong, I loved them all and still watch them all to this day.  But there is a difference.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just now, aquarian1 said:

I don't see a difference in the acting either, but I do see a difference in camera angles, and score, and things like that.  Season 1 does have a different feel to it, but it's more in the production side for me, than the actors.

Yes! This exactly! Is what I was trying to say in the most confusing matter!

[Maherjunkie]

And the synthesizer.  Don't forget the synthesizer.

[wknt3]

On 7/19/2016 at 7:55 AM, aquarian1 said:

I don't see a difference in the acting either, but I do see a difference in camera angles, and score, and things like that.  Season 1 does have a different feel to it, but it's more in the production side for me, than the actors.

Regardless of the above, it also seemed more real to me, with Ben standing at the witness stand and reading from his notes, less dramatics/histrionics from the lawyers.  Later seasons had big speeches, and loud rants, followed with objections and being stricken from the record and so on.  Don't get me wrong, I loved them all and still watch them all to this day.  But there is a difference.

There certainly was a difference. Regarding realism and speechifying I would say it was inversely proportional - courtroom dramatics increased as police histrionics decreased. It was obvious that they spent far more time observing lawyers and courtrooms and far less time with the police in preparing the initial scripts. I don't see as much contrast in acting styles as some do and think some of it on the police side might just be differences in the leads - Florek and Dzundza are a bit more bombastic than their replacements. And there are all sorts of factors at play of course - I've been told by someone who worked on L&O in it's later years that one of the reasons the courtroom dramatics was that as they wanted to explore legal issues more they deliberately had to be less realistic since nobody wanted to watch all the pre-trial hearings, appeals, reading briefs, etc. where they would have actually argued those points in real life.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Indifference. Six PM Eastern time on Sundance. Mike Logan rules.

[Maherjunkie]

'Word!  "Then she'd turn around, and whack me.

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Indifference. Six PM Eastern time on Sundance. Mike Logan rules.

"She was like this...bottomless PIT."

[Maherjunkie]

With a hint of chest hair exposed!

 

There are some women that provoke it.  "What do ya think of that line?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

With a hint of chest hair exposed!

There are some women that provoke it.  "What do ya think of that line?

From Mike's point of view, I can see the validity of it. Mike was a tense, bristly guy with a temper, but he was also an abuse victim. Twice over, if you count what Father Joe did to him, and that affected his feelings towards the church even more, since he told either Max or Phil "My mother beat me with one hand while holding a rosary in the other. The next time I'm in church, it'll be in a pine box carried by six of my closest friends." I don't think he hated women by the stretch of anyone's imagination, or at least not all women, but I do think the Lowenstein broad pressed down really hard on his nerves. It's not a PC sentiment by any means, and in a more modern show the Greevey side of the conversation would probably have been a lot more censorious of the turn Mike's thoughts were taking,

[Maherjunkie]

I am so glad this show was written before that scourge hit America.

 

I love you saying "broad"!  Somehow it fits with her.

[FozzyBear]

On August 5, 2016 at 8:37 PM, Maherjunkie said:

With a hint of chest hair exposed!

 

There are some women that provoke it.  "What do ya think of that line?

I think there is some twisted nugget of truth, especially from a kid's point of view, and it's still not an excuse to hit someone.  Abusive realationships, especially long term ones, can be complicated. Victims will often start behaving to the roles, playing into the dynamic. Plus abusive relationships aren't lifetime movies and victims aren't perfect subjects. Nasty individuals can be victims just as much as nice ones. So say Mrs Logan was just a bitchy piece of work who's way of dealing with an abusive marriage was to decide the teo things in her life she could control were provoking when she got hit and finding someone smaller to take her frustrations out on. It's actually not that unusual a reaction, lots of victims will talk about doing things they knew would result in physical abuse because then they knew when it was coming. So she plays into the dynamic by instigating a fight and then hits the kids when it's over. I could see how a 10 year old would place more blame on the mother hitting him then the father that hit the mother.

[Maherjunkie]

Yes, but I got the impression the "old man" was the sympathetic one.

[FozzyBear]

8 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

Yes, but I got the impression the "old man" was the sympathetic one.

I'm not saying I agree with Logan, just that the dynamics of an abusive family are complicated and there is more then one way to react. Some people have adult relationships with abusive parents, some people cut them off, so on and so on. In the context of the case, I TOTALLY got where Mike was coming from because yeah, fuck her. I can't even muster any sympathy for crazy ass "where's Pookie?" That bitch was just as bad as the dad. And I totally see how she pushed Mike's "self absorbed, always a victim, nothing's ever her fault drama queen" button.

[Maherjunkie]

I'm with ya.  From what we know of Mike's father, I think I would normally like him.  Those dynamics do have deep roots.

[Spartan Girl]

So I'm watching "Poison Ivy" on WE. I know we give Max a lot of crap for his self-righteousness but this episode he gets a hell of a gold star. He smelled a rat right away with that cop shooting that kid who supposedly pulled a gun at him; it didn't take him long to figure out the gun was planted.

"Indifference" is on next!

[AnnieBananie]

A few days ago, I read this article on Slate. While I knew that "Indifference" was based on a real story, I'd never known the facts about it. 

It's also SUPER CREEPY how much Marcia Jean Kurtz resembles Hedda Nussbaum.  Watching it on Sunday night, I was affected all over again.

[shapeshifter]

Just noticed:

Season 1 starts airing today on the Escape channel M-F 12-2 / 1-3 CT.
 

And, the first aired episode, "Prescription for Death," has the kind of courtroom comments you don't hear anymore:
[Defense attorney] Isn't it possible that pneumonia killed Suzanne Morton?
[Witness/doctor] It's possible that death rays from Mars killed her but I don't think so.

Edited January 1, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Xeliou66]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Just noticed:

Season 1 starts airing today on the Escape channel M-F 12-2 / 1-3 CT.
 

And, the first aired episode, "Prescription for Death," has the kind of courtroom comments you don't hear anymore:
[Defense attorney] Isn't it possible that pneumonia killed Suzanne Morton?
[Witness/doctor] It's possible that death rays from Mars killed her but I don't think so.

I thought it was odd how in the first episode there were a lot of courtroom theatrics and noise and the judge didn’t do anything. Also the witnesses were called out of order, the defense called one and then the prosecution went back to calling them, very odd, that was quickly rectified. The first episode was still good but the show was still trying to figure out its format, which it quickly did, a lot of season 1 was quite good and season 2 was even better. 

[shapeshifter]

Yes, there was one point where one side's lawyer asked a question, and then immediately the the other side's lawyer asked the same witness another question, and I thought something like: This is not my daughter's Law & Order. Heh.

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 1/1/2019 at 10:00 AM, shapeshifter said:

[Defense attorney] Isn't it possible that pneumonia killed Suzanne Morton?
[Witness/doctor] It's possible that death rays from Mars killed her but I don't think so.

I was going to post this as it has to be my FAVORITE part of this episode-with Ron Rifkin’s SMUG Nevins question, and the coroner’s response-played by the AWESOME Daniel Benzali!* It was the emphasis and sarcasm that had me 😆😆😆😆🤣🤣

He slowly removes his glasses...

”It’s possible that Death Rays from Mars killed her, but I don’t think so.” And he replaces his glasses on his nose.

He would return many many seasons later to play a judge.

* Why no, I haven’t watched so many times that I know everyone’s names-actor and character!😆😆😆 Whatever gave you that idea?😆😆

[proserpina65]

On ‎07‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 2:20 AM, andromeda331 said:

Last night they played one of my favorite episodes The Troubles, even though they've been playing the earlier seasons lately on WE I keep missing this episode. The whole episode is really good but I love the end when Ben calls and questions his rebuttal witness.

I'm kinda fascinated by the fact that WE bleeps out "Mick" every time they run this episode.  I mean, I know it's an insult, but NBC never bothered to bleep it.  It's not exactly the N word.

[Xeliou66]

23 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I'm kinda fascinated by the fact that WE bleeps out "Mick" every time they run this episode.  I mean, I know it's an insult, but NBC never bothered to bleep it.  It's not exactly the N word.

It’s not the only case of ridiculous censorship, WE and Sundance bleep out some very minor stuff. It’s clearly a case of the packinging of episodes because WE has started showing the later episodes and they are never censored.

[DXD526]

Quote

He would return many many seasons later to play a judge.

I thought he played a judge on L&O. When his playing a coroner was mentioned, my first thought was, wasn't he a L&O judge? So he was both. I love the recycling! I remember Benzali best as a lawyer on that classic first season of Murder One. The Goldilocks Killer case. Good times. 

I need to get out more...

[shapeshifter]

I happened to catch "Everybody's Favorite Bagman" the other day, which aired in 1990 as 1.6, but was actually shot in 1988, when Chris Noth was just 34. 
The opening title screen Cha-Chung sound effect reminded me of the hammer striking metal at the end of Dragnet. I wonder if that was an influence.

[GHScorpiosRule]

26 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I happened to catch "Everybody's Favorite Bagman" the other day, which aired in 1990 as 1.6, but was actually shot in 1988, when Chris Noth was just 34. 
The opening title screen Cha-Chung sound effect reminded me of the hammer striking metal at the end of Dragnet. I wonder if that was an influence.

Yes. That's the unofficial pilot. And it took Wolf two years before he could get one of the networks to pick up the series. I think we discussed this up thread and in the now locked general talk thread that we were using when the forum was vaulted.

Max was considerably thinner and had more hair, too!

[Spartan Girl]

I do love when WE goes back to the first season. ”Poison Ivy” was on yesterday, one of my favorites. One of Max’s best episodes: this time being sanctimonious for the right reasons.

And then the great (and heart wrenching) “Indifference.” I love how Mike went from “Told ya!” to Max after the nosy neighbor when he saw Karla hit Didi after Jacob hit her from total horror when they found out that the whole family had been released with the little boy. The way they just hauled ass to the apartment…whew.

[wknt3]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I happened to catch "Everybody's Favorite Bagman" the other day, which aired in 1990 as 1.6, but was actually shot in 1988, when Chris Noth was just 34. 
The opening title screen Cha-Chung sound effect reminded me of the hammer striking metal at the end of Dragnet. I wonder if that was an influence.

Maybe. It was actually created my legendary composed Mike Post (so it is considered music and he gets a royalty every time it is used!) and from what he says about the process for creating the show's music in general I would say Dragnet was quite possibly a subconscious influence given Dick Wolf's description of what he wanted (very story focused, not emotional) or maybe it was just a matter of thematic convergence. He doesn't mention any direct inspiration though,

Here is Mike Post talking about developing the show's music (the "chung chung" in particular starts at 19:12) -

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I do love when WE goes back to the first season. ”Poison Ivy” was on yesterday, one of my favorites. One of Max’s best episodes: this time being sanctimonious for the right reasons.

And then the great (and heart wrenching) “Indifference.” I love how Mike went from “Told ya!” to Max after the nosy neighbor when he saw Karla hit Didi after Jacob hit her from total horror when they found out that the whole family had been released with the little boy. The way they just hauled ass to the apartment…whew.

“A Death in the Family” is also a good Max episode-in that he’s not a sanctimonious asshole. Plus it introduced me to a phrase I’d never heard of before! Uttered by Mike after he learns Max had a partner who had been killed:

”This really frosts my cookies!”

Me: 😂😂😂
 

OOPS! That was from “Everybody’s Favorite Bagman”

Edited November 16, 2021 by GHScorpiosRule

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I do love when WE goes back to the first season. ”Poison Ivy” was on yesterday, one of my favorites. One of Max’s best episodes: this time being sanctimonious for the right reasons.

And then the great (and heart wrenching) “Indifference.” I love how Mike went from “Told ya!” to Max after the nosy neighbor when he saw Karla hit Didi after Jacob hit her from total horror when they found out that the whole family had been released with the little boy. The way they just hauled ass to the apartment…whew.

Indifference was a chilling episode - it was noteworthy how enraged Stone was over the crime, Stone was usually very stoic and rarely showed his emotions but in this one you could tell how furious he was at the defendants and their heinous conduct. 

[balmz]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Indifference was a chilling episode - it was noteworthy how enraged Stone was over the crime, Stone was usually very stoic and rarely showed his emotions but in this one you could tell how furious he was at the defendants and their heinous conduct. 

i wonder how he would have handled fixed if he was still on the show

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, balmz said:

i wonder how he would have handled fixed if he was still on the show

I think he would’ve handled it the same as Jack did - Jack was more visibly passionate about everything, including his stance against vigilante justice, but Ben was dedicated to the rule of law as well, and he would’ve prosecuted Lowenstein’s killer like he prosecuted anyone else.