Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[BkWurm1]

I personally hope that DD had RP captive because RP betrayed him. I want the reason DD set his sights on SC was because RP got in bed with the wrong guy. It could be a similar story to QL. DD seemed like a caring benefactor and RP clung onto him. Maybe that's why he signed his company over to FS in case of his demise. Because really what other reason makes sense? Once he realized how deep he was in with DD, he knew ths only way out was likely death at DDs hand.

He said in the video it was all his fault. Don't disappoint me show! Let Shrinkage get some shine off his morally superior suit. We all know the LoT needs reasons to be recruited. RP joining to repair the bad he helped cause sounds like good rationale to me.

I keep remembering a comment made about the cast of LoT, something to the effect of by the time they leave for the spin off, it will make sense as the only place they can go after having left such a mess behind them.  It works for Sara and Cap Cold and who knows with the Hawks and while Firestorm (the pair) has only been positive, there's time for them to blow something up.  Ray has always puzzled me.  It could be something like he'd made a deal with Dahrk but I tend to think it's more that he's divested himself of all his distractions and now needs a new purpose.  He has no purpose except to try and help. 

 

That main reason I doubt he'd have a deal with DD is that Ray was too stinking rich.  He didn't need to make any deals to get resources. 

 

As an aside, the first time Wade and Zoe did the deed on Hart of Dixie is one of my favorite network love scenes, ever.  Shockingly hot.

 

Appreciation for the character makes such a difference.  I hated Wade as a love interest.  Dumb  never works for me.  That scene is what ultimately made me quit the show and it was worse than me getting into a huff and walking away.  I wasn't thrilled but fully intended to keep watching for all the other fun stuff.  It's just I became so meh to the places the show might go from there that I let the episodes pile up on my DVR for TWO years.  I finally hit delete mid way through the third, realizing that I was never getting over my ick factor. 

Edited November 8, 2015 by BkWurm1

[AyChihuahua]

Appreciation for the character makes such a difference.  I hated Wade as a love interest.  Dumb  never works for me.  That scene is what ultimately made me quit the show and it was worse than me getting into a huff and walking away.  I wasn't thrilled but fully intended to keep watching for all the other fun stuff.  It's just I became so meh to the places the show might go from there that I let the episodes pile up on my DVR for TWO years.  I finally hit delete mid way through the third, realizing that I was never getting over my ick factor. 

Then how could you continue liking Oliver in S3?!?

 

Kidding.  Mostly.  I hate dumb, so I guess I just didn't think Wade was dumb.  

[BkWurm1]

Then how could you continue liking Oliver in S3?!?

 

Kidding.  Mostly.  I hate dumb, so I guess I just didn't think Wade was dumb.  

Wade reminds me too much of " Ollie".  Deliberate Dumbass, not true IQ stuff. 

 

On a shallow note, he was too short and skinny and young looking for my taste, lol. 

Edited November 8, 2015 by BkWurm1

[AyChihuahua]

Wade reminds me too much of " Ollie".  Deliberate Dumbass, not true IQ stuff. 

 

On a shallow note, he was too short and skinny and young looking for my taste, lol. 

He's six feet tall!

[BkWurm1]

He's six feet tall!

Ha! 

 

Then they stuck Rachel Bilson on some really tall apple crates.  She's only 5'2" and they always seemed to make him look not much taller than her. 

 

I

[kismet]

I keep remembering a comment made about the cast of LoT, something to the effect of by the time they leave for the spin off, it will make sense as the only place they can go after having left such a mess behind them. It works for Sara and Cap Cold and who knows with the Hawks and while Firestorm (the pair) has only been positive, there's time for them to blow something up. Ray has always puzzled me. It could be something like he'd made a deal with Dahrk but I tend to think it's more that he's divested himself of all his distractions and now needs a new purpose. He has no purpose except to try and help.

That main reason I doubt he'd have a deal with DD is that Ray was too stinking rich. He didn't need to make any deals to get resources.

Appreciation for the character makes such a difference. I hated Wade as a love interest. Dumb never works for me. That scene is what ultimately made me quit the show and it was worse than me getting into a huff and walking away. I wasn't thrilled but fully intended to keep watching for all the other fun stuff. It's just I became so meh to the places the show might go from there that I let the episodes pile up on my DVR for TWO years. I finally hit delete mid way through the third, realizing that I was never getting over my ick factor.

RP didn't need money. But who knows what resources he may have needed for his gadgets. He bribed FS into that dinner to help him coerce that man out of his minefield. So who knows what DD may have offered? DD seems to have some pretty unique resources.

Shame about you & HoD, it really became an adorable show and the supporting cast was such an asset. The town had such a heartwarming & funny vibe to it. Wade started the show dumb, but really felt he had a quality evolution as a character and was not dumb by the end. Also the actor was on Astronauts wives club & felt he excelled there. I would love to see him on another show of mine. Not sure he would have been a good RP though. But better LI than BR, absolutely.

Agree with @aychihuahua wade & zoes sex scenes were hot!

[BkWurm1]

Shame about you & HoD, it really became an adorable show and the supporting cast was such an asset. The town had such a heartwarming & funny vibe to it. Wade started the show dumb, but really felt he had a quality evolution as a character and was not dumb by the end. Also the actor was on Astronauts wives club & felt he excelled there. I would love to see him on another show of mine. Not sure he would have been a good RP though. But better LI than BR, absolutely.

 

Ok, now that's hilarious.  I watched and enjoyed Astronauts Wives Club and I never recognized him.  (Had to check Google)  Didn't bother me on that show.  Maybe it was the accent, lol.  I really was reluctant to delete my back stash of HoD because of all the other characters.  It was the closest to wacky townies I could get after Gilmore Girls. (Plus I liked seeing Stars Hallow  pretend to be Blue Bell) Still, Wade was like nails on  chalkboard to me.  I can't even say I hated him. He just bugged me and I could get past my initial ick feeling. I think when I stopped watching  I had already figure out that Zoe's ending would be tied with his an suddenly I just didn't care anymore. 

 

DD seems to have some pretty unique resources.

 

At this point I think Ray could be wooed with some doll house furniture. 

Edited November 8, 2015 by BkWurm1

[AyChihuahua]

I really was reluctant to delete my back stash of HoD because of all the other characters.  It was the closest to wacky townies I could get after Gilmore Girls. (Plus I liked seeing Stars Hallow  pretend to be Blue Bell) Still, Wade was like nails on  chalkboard to me.  I can't even say I hated him. He just bugged me and I could get past my initial ick feeling. I think when I stopped watching  I had already figure out that Zoe's ending would be tied with his an suddenly I just didn't care anymore. 

Wade was definitely emotionally stupid, but I didn't think he was actually stupid.  He was pretty good at various skills that require brains, e.g., plumbing, fixing cars, electrical work.  They had a similar problem on that show that they had on Arrow, that not a lot of the audience was into George and Zoe, which I'm pretty sure was the way it was supposed to go.  I always thought George looked like a squat fireman's plug and was pretty charmless, so I put myself into the G/Z NOPE category.

 

I don't think RP is going to have done anything bad with DD.  I'd be fine if they did, but I think the writers consider the Cane Toad to be totally heroic and fabulous.  For whatever reason they are pretty blind to his fairly grotesque faults. 

[apinknightmare]

I liked Wade, except for

when he cheated (with a character who was played by SA's wife, coincidentally). 

 

 

 

For whatever reason they are pretty blind to his fairly grotesque faults

 

Most definitely.

[nksarmi]

Ok let's face it - they aren't blind to Ray's faults - they just aren't going to admit that they wrote him that way.  Because while I understand if someone doesn't like Brandon Routh as an actor (I think he is ok - not great - sure as hell not Robert Downey Jr. great - but ok), none of the faults of Ray are really BR's doing (well accept whatever he had going on with his eye for a couple of episodes).

 

I think overall the things the fans didn't like, they thought were funny or endearing or something else.  And as far as him electrocuting Roy goes (my biggest personal beef) - they have admitted that was a production screw up.  I'm sure Roy was supposed to pop up and be just fine and maybe even have a witty one-liner or something so we would know he was fine. 

 

Plus I think we have to give Ray a little bit of a break because he was being introduced to us in the hellish writing of Arrow season three where they couldn't understand why people thought Laurel looked bad for lying to her dad, where Diggle had some of his biggest WTF moments that I can remember (actually being the one to tell Oliver NOT to tell Thea the truth - what????), where Felicity was written strange at moments, Oliver was written as a total dumbass for most of the season, and where much of the plot failed to make any kind of sense even in hindsight. 

 

So I am going to just shrug my shoulders and hope that the new writing team for LoT can write Ray the way the Arrow team last year thought they were writing him.

Edited November 9, 2015 by nksarmi

[Sakura12]

Yeah, I'm hoping with a new writing team including some people from the show "Forever" (which was an amazing character driven show) can do some justice to these characters that Arrow writers have failed. 

 

I didn't watch the Season of Stupidity. They killed Sara in the first ep, that was big nope to me.  So I don't have a real opinion on Ray. Although the other things I've seen Routh in doesn't inspire confidence in his acting ability. And his stupid putting butter in coffee still grosses me out. But I will wait for LoT to pass judgement on his character on that show. 

[apinknightmare]

I think he'll be fine on a show where he doesn't exist for the sole purpose of being spun off into another show/being a ship block. They did fine with him in the later half of the season when the angsty romance/idiotic Arrow vendetta crap was set aside and he could just be himself. 

 

 

Ok let's face it - they aren't blind to Ray's faults - they just aren't going to admit that they wrote him that way.

 

I have to disagree with you about this, though. I truly believe that MG and co. didn't think there was anything wrong with the way he behaved when he was pursuing Felicity. Like, I would bet actual money that they dismissed all of those complaints as ship bias.

Edited November 9, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

I give the Cane Toad no break whatsoever, seeing as how he was a hideous human being from the moment he appeared, when he lied to and used Felicity for his own gain, all the way through signing the company over to her without so much as telling her.

 

And I don't care if Roy was supposed to pop up and be fine, because the Cane Toad still electrocuted him.  Roy is a genuinely kind and selfless person, who went there because of the Cane Toad's fake 911 call.  And for that he was electrocuted.  So no, the Cane Toad is a scummy misogynistic douchebag loser, and I do not give scummy misogynistic douchebag losers "breaks."

Edited November 9, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

Ok let's face it - they aren't blind to Ray's faults - they just aren't going to admit that they wrote him that way. 

 

Sorry, I disagree. The way they talked about Palmer before S3 premiered was going on and on and on about how Routh and EBR had the chemistry of Old Hollywood, and how they were writing their scenes with that '40s-'50s vibe. And the stalking thing was supposed to be cute and funny. They were writing Palmer as the lead in a '50s rom-com, probably because in their dudebro sexist heads that's cute and funny. I mean, they made stalking a joke wrt Felicity with in S2 with her offhand remark about the Lacrosse player just the same.

 

And then Routh didn't help because making stalking cute and funny actually requires an actor with an insane range. Not the case at all here.

 

 

Plus I think we have to give Ray a little bit of a break because he was being introduced to us in the hellish writing of Arrow season three

 

I can't give him a break because the shift in tone in his scenes were abysmal. It's not Palmer's fault as a character, it was just another terrible decision by the showrunners to write a sitcom inside a grimdark misery porn, twinkle music and all, but the result for me wasn't "oooh, Palmer is funny", it was WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON WHY IS THERE TWINKLE MUSIC AND CRAZY EYES amidst the misery porn.

 

And it's not even what it did to Palmer that bugs me -- it's how it royally fucked up Felicity's storyline.

[tv echo]

BR was a miscast for Arrow - he just didn't belong on that show.  He would've worked better on Flash.  Some actors can play characters that would fit on both shows (GG, EBR), but some can't.

Edited November 9, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

And I don't care if Roy was supposed to pop up and be fine, because the Cane Toad still electrocuted him.  

 

 

Yeah, I thought the issue wasn't so much about Roy in that scenario (apart from the fact that Oliver just left him there), but that Ray was going after the Arrow for hurting/killing people, and then Ray went ahead and outright electrocuted Roy, while still claiming some kind of moral high ground.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I thought the issue wasn't so much about Roy in that scenario (apart from the fact that Oliver just left him there), but that Ray was going after the Arrow for hurting/killing people, and then Ray went ahead and outright electrocuted Roy, while still claiming some kind of moral high ground.

For me it's both.  Don't claim to be a better "hero" and then electrocute one of the only truly good human beings on the show, who is only there because he is trying to help people.  RP is utterly loathsome.

[nksarmi]

I think he'll be fine on a show where he doesn't exist for the sole purpose of being spun off into another show/being a ship block. They did fine with him in the later half of the season when the angsty romance/idiotic Arrow vendetta crap was set aside and he could just be himself. 

 

 

I have to disagree with you about this, though. I truly believe that MG and co. didn't think there was anything wrong with the way he behaved when he was pursuing Felicity. Like, I would bet actual money that they dismissed all of those complaints as ship bias.

That's kind what I meant - like to me - being blind to a characters faults means they write the faults on purpose and then later act like they aren't there - like Malcolm Merlyn.

 

But I guess another way to look at it is being blind to the fact that you wrote the faults to begin with - which to me is what they are doing with Ray. 

 

And I think that scene with Ray electrocuting Roy is the epitome of not realizing you are writing a character in a craptastic manner.  Because I can't blame anyone who hates Ray for that.  I mean, I can accept that the stalking was supposed to be akin to the same kind of stuff Felicity does (hacking phones, etc....) and they don't understand why the initial Oliver/Felicity vibe was SO different than the Ray/Felicity vibe (since at one point Oliver becomes her boss and they have a bit of a power inbalance as well).  Ok they actually made a lot of worse character mistakes in season three so whatever.....

 

But Ray electrocuted one of the good guys (Roy) while acting like Oliver was the bad guy and it seems like he did it because he got jealous that Felicity knew and supported Oliver.  The fact that they didn't realize just how BAD that made Ray look is equal to them not understanding why Laurel looks bad for lying to her dad about Sara and why Diggle - of all people - would NOT have told Oliver to keep lying to Thea about being the Arrow.

 

I mean it's like the writing staff had a lobotomy last season or something. So I certainly don't expect them to address faults they never seemed to realize they were writing to begin with. 

 

***Which is a little different this season with Laurel who they seem to be at least admitting (via other characters critiquing her) that some of the stuff she does is wrong and stupid even if it does all work out and there are no consequences.

Edited November 9, 2015 by nksarmi

[theacostov]

Sorry, I disagree. The way they talked about Palmer before S3 premiered was going on and on and on about how Routh and EBR had the chemistry of Old Hollywood, and how they were writing their scenes with that '40s-'50s vibe. And the stalking thing was supposed to be cute and funny. They were writing Palmer as the lead in a '50s rom-com, probably because in their dudebro sexist heads that's cute and funny. I mean, they made stalking a joke wrt Felicity with in S2 with her offhand remark about the Lacrosse player just the same.

Yup I vaguely remember a tumblr ask (or it might have been Twitter) where someone questioned him about either the stalking, buying the company she worked at or getting felicity a dress and his response was, "have you never watched a romantic comedy?" SMH

They wrote RP as a huge douche and didn't even see it.

[dtissagirl]

The hilarious part to me is I can see what they were trying to do, but how it turned out to be a terrible idea. Beucase it's not even that it can't be done -- you can write a rom-com in which your protagonist is a stalkery douche, and make it cute and funny. But you need Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan. And writers that are basically THE OPPOSITE of Marc Guggenheim.

[apinknightmare]

That's kind what I meant - like to me - being blind to a characters faults means they write the faults on purpose and then later act like they aren't there - like Malcolm Merlyn.

 

But I guess another way to look at it is being blind to the fact that you wrote the faults to begin with - which to me is what they are doing with Ray. 

 

Yeah, I don't think they intended to write Ray as creepy, I think they intended for him to be incredibly charming. And I think they believe he's incredibly charming, and dismiss anyone who thinks otherwise as not liking him just because he's not Oliver. 

[AyChihuahua]

That's kind what I meant - like to me - being blind to a characters faults means they write the faults on purpose and then later act like they aren't there - like Malcolm Merlyn.

That is the opposite of what that phrase means.

[Morrigan2575]

BR was a miscast for Arrow - he just didn't belong on that show.  He would've worked better on Flash.  Some actors can play characters that would fit on both shows (GG, EBR), but some can't.

I don't think that BR was miscast on Arrow and that being Ray on Flash would have worked better.  I think BR was miscast in the role of Ray, the way the wrote him in early S3.  I like BR but I think his acting range is limited, he was good in 319 and all of his scenes with Cisco and he's good when he's allowed to play hyperactive, geeky, fanboy and when he gets to play dumb.  Unfortunately, that's not the character they were writing for early S3 Arrow so it fell flat (IMO).  What they needed was someone that could be charming while still being a bit of a dick.  Actors that come to mind, the dude that played Luke on Tomorrow People, Justin Hartley and Michael Rosebaum. 

 

Personally, I think a different actor could have rocked the roll in early S3 and made Ray and Raylicity work as required by the show.  However, I do think that once they stopped writing Ray to fit the angsty, relationship road block and started writing him as the character he'll most likely play on LoT, BR and Ray were much better off.  I'm pretty sure that casting BR had everything to do with the planned ATOM spin-off which was pitched to the network very early on.  

[kismet]

Ok let's face it - they aren't blind to Ray's faults - they just aren't going to admit that they wrote him that way.  Because while I understand if someone doesn't like Brandon Routh as an actor (I think he is ok - not great - sure as hell not Robert Downey Jr. great - but ok), none of the faults of Ray are really BR's doing (well accept whatever he had going on with his eye for a couple of episodes).

 

I think overall the things the fans didn't like, they thought were funny or endearing or something else.  And as far as him electrocuting Roy goes (my biggest personal beef) - they have admitted that was a production screw up.  I'm sure Roy was supposed to pop up and be just fine and maybe even have a witty one-liner or something so we would know he was fine. 

 

Plus I think we have to give Ray a little bit of a break because he was being introduced to us in the hellish writing of Arrow season three where they couldn't understand why people thought Laurel looked bad for lying to her dad, where Diggle had some of his biggest WTF moments that I can remember (actually being the one to tell Oliver NOT to tell Thea the truth - what????), where Felicity was written strange at moments, Oliver was written as a total dumbass for most of the season, and where much of the plot failed to make any kind of sense even in hindsight. 

 

So I am going to just shrug my shoulders and hope that the new writing team for LoT can write Ray the way the Arrow team last year thought they were writing him.

 

I will give him a shot in LoT, but I can loathe every second he takes up on ARROW. Frankly, I don't feel the need to find him so soon. So he better have a good DD plot going on. Because I will be pissed if we wasted as much time as we already have trying to play Honey I shrunk the kids, creepy edition.

Yeah, I don't think they intended to write Ray as creepy, I think they intended for him to be incredibly charming. And I think they believe he's incredibly charming, and dismiss anyone who thinks otherwise as not liking him just because he's not Oliver. 

TBH, I feel like they started the season unawares if RP was going to be bad or good (similar to Isabel & Sara in s2). So they laid the groundwork for both in script & how scenes were shot. Perhaps they also forgot to give BR the memo, because a lot of his scenes had potential "I'm evil" undertones. By the time they decided to go with good, it was too late the damage & seeds were planted. Then they doubled down on MG's version of a RomCom (or as I like to call it Lifetime Movie Prequel). And they got uber defensive and rejected any & all critiques of the character. Par for the course of S3 journey through bad writing.

Edited November 9, 2015 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

TBH, I feel like they started the season unawares if RP was going to be bad or good (similar to Isabel & Sara in s2). So they laid the groundwork for both in script & how scenes were shot. Perhaps they also forgot to give BR the memo, because a lot of his scenes had potential "I'm evil" undertones. By the time they decided to go with good, it was too late the damage & seeds were planted. Then they doubled down on MG's version of a RomCom (or as I like to call it Lifetime Movie Prequel). And they got uber defensive and rejected any & all critiques of the character. Par for the course of S3 journey through bad writing.

I think they wanted the audience to pick up on some ambiguity, but I don't think they ever actually intended to make him evil.  You can't really set up a spinoff around a villain, and they planned/hoped for an ATOM show I am willing to bet from the moment they cast BR.

[Sakura12]

I think Ray was always meant to be good, they were trying to set up spin off. 

 

Sara being bad was in the very early stages, before they even starting casting. Caity was told she was playing the Canary before they stated filming. Sara on the show was written to be just what she was a closed off assassin that wanted to protect women. 

Edited November 9, 2015 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

And I think that scene with Ray electrocuting Roy is the epitome of not realizing you are writing a character in a craptastic manner.  Because I can't blame anyone who hates Ray for that.  I mean, I can accept that the stalking was supposed to be akin to the same kind of stuff Felicity does (hacking phones, etc....) and they don't understand why the initial Oliver/Felicity vibe was SO different than the Ray/Felicity vibe (since at one point Oliver becomes her boss and they have a bit of a power inbalance as well).  Ok they actually made a lot of worse character mistakes in season three so whatever.....

 

But Ray electrocuted one of the good guys (Roy) while acting like Oliver was the bad guy and it seems like he did it because he got jealous that Felicity knew and supported Oliver.  The fact that they didn't realize just how BAD that made Ray look is equal to them not understanding why Laurel looks bad for lying to her dad about Sara and why Diggle - of all people - would NOT have told Oliver to keep lying to Thea about being the Arrow.

 

The thing is, I'm pretty sure that wasn't a writing problem at all. It was a production problem. I really doubt the script says something like "and then Palmer electrocutes Roy, who falls down in a puddle and dies". This wasn't the writing at all. This was a stunt that went too far, and then a massive editing room snafu, that either didn't realize what they were doing, OR, that did realize that they had a problem, but for some reason there wasn't any Roy footage available post this scene that put Roy back into the episode, you know, alive.

Edited November 9, 2015 by dtissagirl

[AyChihuahua]

They also made the electrocution look really, really severe.  IRL Roy would be very dead before he even hit the puddle and drowned in it.

[kismet]

I think they wanted the audience to pick up on some ambiguity, but I don't think they ever actually intended to make him evil.  You can't really set up a spinoff around a villain, and they planned/hoped for an ATOM show I am willing to bet from the moment they cast BR.

They wrote & acted ambiguity. I agree with you that they hoped/planned a s/off, which is why the ambiguity was such a bizarre choice.  Which perhaps was part of the problem. If they had just written him as the goofy dork they had in very late 3b from the beginning, it might have been different. For me BR has 2 acting modes - Dork & Untrustworthy Good guy turned Bad. If you have someone that can play good guy gone bad as easily as BR does, the ambiguity is not the best approach, esp if you have spin-off in your sights. This is why I hope he did something stupidity to get him self involved with DD, because I had to endure weeks of ambiguity and if it just amounts to poor writing & acting choices, I will be greatly disappointed.

[Morrigan2575]

TBH, I feel like they started the season unawares if RP was going to be bad or good (similar to Isabel & Sara in s2). So they laid the groundwork for both in script & how scenes were shot. Perhaps they also forgot to give BR the memo, because a lot of his scenes had potential "I'm evil" undertones. By the time they decided to go with good, it was too late the damage & seeds were planted. Then they doubled down on MG's version of a RomCom (or as I like to call it Lifetime Movie Prequel). And they got uber defensive and rejected any & all critiques of the character. Par for the course of S3 journey through bad writing.

Oh no, no no, there was NEVER any intention of making Ray a bad guy.  They were pitching that spin-off very early in the process, and they hired BR (An actor with comics/DC street cred...tainted as it may be) for the role of Ray/ATOM.  They were building a show around Ray, that was their intent from the beginning, the only question is what would have been done different if the CW jumped at the ATOM spinoff instead of going "meh". 

[nksarmi]

The thing is, I'm pretty sure that wasn't a writing problem at all. It was a production problem. I really doubt the script says something like "and then Palmer electrocutes Roy, who falls down in a puddle and dies". This wasn't the writing at all. This was a stunt that went too far, and then a massive editing room snafu, that either didn't realize what they were doing, OR, that did realize that they had a problem, but for some reason there wasn't any Roy footage available post this scene that put Roy back into the episode, you know, alive.

I agree that it was mostly production, but part of me wonders why there was no planned dialogue or scripted scene to remind the director - hey you need to show the audience that the hero wannabee didn't just KILL the junior hero of the show.

 

Of course it didn't help that MG was floating "someone will die" spoilers about the same time this episode aired. 

[dtissagirl]

I agree that it was mostly production, but part of me wonders why there was no planned dialogue or scripted scene to remind the director - hey you need to show the audience that the hero wannabee didn't just KILL the junior hero of the show.

Of course it didn't help that MG was floating "someone will die" spoilers about the same time this episode aired.

Most likely because what the stunt would be exactly wasn't scripted, and then on top of that, most likely having the unit 2 director shoot the electrocution part of the scene, instead of the credited director. Hence the snafu. The script didn't intend for Roy to be massively hurt/killed, so it didn't have to address the issue. Edited November 9, 2015 by dtissagirl

[statsgirl]

Sorry, I disagree. The way they talked about Palmer before S3 premiered was going on and on and on about how Routh and EBR had the chemistry of Old Hollywood, and how they were writing their scenes with that '40s-'50s vibe. And the stalking thing was supposed to be cute and funny. They were writing Palmer as the lead in a '50s rom-com, probably because in their dudebro sexist heads that's cute and funny. I mean, they made stalking a joke wrt Felicity with in S2 with her offhand remark about the Lacrosse player just the same.

I think the problem is that they were writing a '50s rom-com, while thinking they were writing a 30's one with Cary Grant and Katherine Hepburn.  They even said that Ray was like Cary Grant while Oliver was Clark Gable (?).

 

The problem is that while the 30s movies like Bringing Up Baby sparkled because the characters were equal, the 50's and 60's one were full of sexism and ridiculous tropes like That Touch of Mink Doris Day spending the entire movie romanced by millionaire Cary Grant and going on trips with him while keeping her virginity, or The Thrill Of It All where she suddenly starts earning her own money as a spokeswoman and husband James Garner can't deal with it.

 

Setting aside Brandon Routh's abilities, they thought they were writing Felicity as Katherine Hepburn and turned her into Doris Day instead.

[Genki]

I hate the way they changed Felicity's character to fit Ray, on both Arrow and the Flash

 

I hate the way Felicity and Diggle barely got to have scenes together, so Ray could find Felicity crying in her office

 

I hate they way they forced Ray into Diggle's Wedding

 

I hate BR's Crazy eyes

 

I hate the way they tried to legitimise Ray by having him "do" the Salmon Ladder but not have SA do it ALL Season

 

I hate the jarring change of tone they introduced every-time Ray scenes came on

 

I hate the insta-hero's journey given to Ray when Oliver struggled for years and was still struggling

 

I hate the fact they change the name of the City to Star City in memory of RP who had been there like a year as a citizen, nothing when the Queens go missing??

 

I hate that we had to put up with Ray for so many damn episodes in S3 for thespin-off and we still have more to come in S4

 

The only positive I to say for Ray, in Season 3, was that he made Laurel more likeable in that one scene

 

Ray gets no pass from me in Arrow...LOT may be able to change my mind, but more likely to be like Flash where I watch with no emotional investment

[Tangerine]

I'm really curious as to Sara's reaction to Laurel playing superhero. All I really want is for Sara to absolutely tear into Laurel for doing it, but I'm guessing that isn't going to happen and we're going to get more propping up of Laurel's character and validating her awful, awful choices.

[Primal Slayer]

There is no reason for Sara to rip into Laurel for doing it. She's been at it long enough now and it would be something that she would have to respect. Could she be concerned for her sister choosing this life style? Yeah. 

[tarotx]

I'm intrigue about Spartan. Diggle's helmet reminds me of a Spartans one already. I think it might stick.

https://www.google.com/search?q=spartan&oq=Soart&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0j5j0.2925j1j4&client=ms-android-att-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#q=spartan+helmet

Even if he's different than the comics, Some of it fits. And some if it makes me think about what might be happening with the Ghost.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Spartan

Edited November 12, 2015 by tarotx

[tv echo]

Felicity better not be the one in the grave because that would be too Legends of the Fall-ish (tragic hero, destined to be alone because "it was those who loved him most who died young... however much he tried to protect them").

[BkWurm1]

Felicity better not be the one in the grave because that would be too Legends of the Fall-ish (tragic hero, destined to be alone because "it was those who loved him most who died young... however much he tried to protect them").

Hated that movie so bad. 

[Morrigan2575]

Hated that movie so bad.

With a passion...horrible movie

[BkWurm1]

With a passion...horrible movie

I'm pretty sure that's why I kind of have grudge still against Brad Pitt.  Never forgave him the trauma. 

[Genki]

I'm pretty sure that's why I kind of have grudge still against Brad Pitt.  Never forgave him the trauma. 

 

I held a grudge against Julia Ormond for the longest time...took Witches of East End to cure.

 

I'm 97.5% certain it's not Felicity in the grave, but I'm 100% certain they will troll us with the possibility until the actual reveal.

[tv echo]

I hope the EPs see the Los  Angeles Times review (of 406) that said that Felicity Smoak "is often considered the crown jewel of this series, and with good reason" and that she is "the Jennifer Lawrence of comic book ladies" - and drop any thought they might have of killing her off.

Edited November 14, 2015 by tv echo

[Kymmi]

What do you all think that Damien Darkh meant when he told Lance that he could hurt him more than just ... I don't remember what he said but I assumed it had something to do with killing Laurel.  Dare I hope he meant turning Laurel into a Ghost?  How interesting would it be for her to go evil for a period of time?  I'm game!  Pure speculation and wishful thinking, I fear.

[Starfish35]

He said "believe it or not, the death of your daughter is not the most terrible thing I can threaten you with."

Yeah, I'm not sure what that might mean either, but I'm guessing it might have something to do with turning him or Laurel into Ghosts?

[Chaser]

nevermind

Edited November 20, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Morrigan2575]

That was my thought

[Chaser]

Im going with that threat was directed at Lance not Laurel.

[Morrigan2575]

Im going with that threat was directed at Lance not Laurel.

The threat was directed at lance.  However, I find it really hard to imagine how doing something TO Lance could be worse than killing his daughter, especially when DD knows and has seen exactly how much Lance loves his daughters.    

[Chaser]

I really don't want them to Ghost Laurel because I feel that saves her from the grave.