Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[SmallScreenDiva]

Oh, not just you, apinknightmare! If Oliver and Felicity get together right at the end of the season, I'm going to be so pissed off about not seeing another 5 months' worth of relationship development. I'm still waiting for the damned thing to be tackled in the comics. That's why, as cliched as it may seem, I actually would prefer Felicity getting kidnapped. My hope, though, is that Oliver comes back, tells her he wants to be with her, she's wary but they work things out over several episodes and actually get together 5 eps before finale.

Edited January 9, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[statsgirl]

And then she gets kidnapped so Oliver can beat himself up over thinking they could have a relationship.

[jay741982]

Smallscreendiva we think alike about Olicity I want them to hook up before May sweeps so us Olicity can get them having sexytimes THEN the build-up to the Finale

Statsgirl hush your mouth LOL!! But yes that's why I don't want Felicity getting kidnapped

[Chaser]

I was watching Law & Order: Criminal Intent and it was an episode with Goren's nemesis Nicole Wallace. That woman is brilliant and twisted and evil. I would love if they had a female Big Bad. Waller could have stepped into that role but I find the actress lacking.

[DrSpaceman10]

I'm fine with Oliver coming back and Felicity being the one to decide she doesn't want to get into a relationship with him (I wouldn't blame her with everything that's happened). However, I'm not okay with the show pushing Felicity and Ray into some sort of temporary love-triangle nonsense relationship. 

[jay741982]

Ill be fine with it if Oliver still gives the I can't be with anyone crap but I don't know I really really don't want to see her with Ray it would skeeve me out cause he looks creepy. But if Oliver wants her when he gets back and she rejects him and then hooks up with Ray I'm gonna throw things cause it would make no sense

[NumberCruncher]

Ill be fine with it if Oliver still gives the I can't be with anyone crap but I don't know I really really don't want to see her with Ray it would skeeve me out cause he looks creepy. But if Oliver wants her when he gets back and she rejects him and then hooks up with Ray I'm gonna throw things cause it would make no sense

Especially if Ray turns into a big superhero fighting danger because he would basically be just as susceptible to the pitfalls of that life as Oliver is (as if he isn't Oliver-lite enough already).

Edited January 9, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[jay741982]

Exactly Numbercruncher if Felicity rejects Oliver when he gets back she should refuse to get involved with Ray as well

[apinknightmare]

Especially if Ray turns into a big superhero fighting danger because he would basically be just as susceptible to the pitfalls of that life as Oliver is (as if he isn't Oliver-lite enough already).

Except Ray (as far as we know) is completely devoid of the self-loathing and guilt that Oliver's 5 years away left him with, not to mention the past relationship issues and playboy reputation that Oliver has. Felicity never expressed any issues with being in a relationship with a hero/vigilante. She's not the one worried about that-Oliver is.

[statsgirl]

But Ray's lack of self-loathing, for all that it makes him a better partner in a relationship, also makes him less interesting and less worth working for.  He is the blue pill.

[jay741982]

Ray is a Pill that's for sure and Oliver is way more interesting though I wish he would stop with so much self loathing. In the End Felicity deeply truly loves Oliver IMO Ray can't compare and it's why they wouldn't last and why Raylicity should not happen. Of course Oliver needs to get over it he already deeply loves her act on it you bozo lol

[apinknightmare]

But Ray's lack of self-loathing, for all that it makes him a better partner in a relationship, also makes him less interesting and less worth working for.  He is the blue pill.

I didn't say he was a good or better choice, just that Felicity being wary of entering into a relationship with Oliver once he comes around doesn't preclude her from getting into one with Ray. It's Oliver's way of dealing with his past and his feelings for her that would give her pause, not the fact the he's a hero (it was being suggested that it would be nonsensical for Felicity to deny Oliver but date Ray, since Ray would be out A.T.O.M.ing - but superheroing isn't Felicity's issue).

[statsgirl]

I agree, it's not the being a hero that puts her off, she'd be all in for whatever stuff he has to deal with.  The problem for me is that Ray really is Oliver-lite, the billionaire, the sad backstory, the ATOM suit compared to Oliver's amazing physical abilities.  Now that she knows he loves her, why would she settle for the imitation when the real thing is right in front of her, in love with her, and she just has to make him realize he can have it all?

 

That's why I hope Felicity doesn't start a relationship with Ray, because I would think the worse of her for it.

[jay741982]

I wouldn't think the worse of Felicity I'd be pissed at the writing lol. Statsgirl that is why she shouldn't date Ray and she should fight for Oliver to see how great they would be together BUT I do like that she doesn't want to be that woman who pines for the man she loves but hes a butthead lol but I don't want these writers having her date Ray and making it seem like she's trying to make Oliver Jealous

[Password]

Nah I'd be really happy if Felicity said she doesn't want to date him because she is having a few issues. Problem is, if she handles said issues by dating Ray it would make me want to throw things at my tablet screen.

I'm just thinking of my tech over here. Felicity would agree.

[tv echo]

If Felicity has sex with Ray, not only will it be OOC for her (in my opinion), but it will really cause the Felicity haters to come out of the woodwork!  Remember all the crap flying around when Felicity only kissed Barry and Ray?  It's that old double standard.

Edited January 9, 2015 by tv echo

[Ariah]

If Felicity has sex with Ray, not only will it be OOC for her (in my opinion), but it will really cause the Felicity haters to come out of the woodwork!  Remember all the crap flying around when Felicity only kissed Barry and Ray?  It's that old double standard.

 

For me it's far from a double standard: I'd be equally furious if Oliver jumped Laurel after professing his love to Felicity (if their living-dead situation was reversed, that is if it was Felicity who is presumed dead or just plain dead-dead, like Rachel Dewes in Dark Knight dead).

 

It's decency and consequence, and it's against a moral code I live by.

 

The same moral code has no problems if a woman choses to broaden her horizons and date around, so there you go.

[Password]

Well frankly I'm preparing myself for a second "lunge" because this show is unafraid of throwing its characters under the bus. If Ray is Felicity's Sara, brace yourselves.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Well frankly I'm preparing myself for a second "lunge" because this show is unafraid of throwing its characters under the bus. If Ray is Felicity's Sara, brace yourselves.

 

I hope the writers remember how well that worked out for Sara.  People lost their shit when the lunge happened.  Ray is already on sketchy ground with a lot of people because of his highly questionable creeptastic behavior.  If they want to keep him as a regular or spin him off into his own show, they'd be best not to turn any more people against him by making him an obstacle to Olicity happening. 

[apinknightmare]

For me it's far from a double standard: I'd be equally furious if Oliver jumped Laurel after professing his love to Felicity (if their living-dead situation was reversed, that is if it was Felicity who is presumed dead or just plain dead-dead, like Rachel Dewes in Dark Knight dead).

It's decency and consequence, and it's against a moral code I live by.

The same moral code has no problems if a woman choses to broaden her horizons and date around, so there you go.

The only thing is that Felicity hasn't ever told Oliver how she feels about him one way or the other. So, it is a little different IMO. I don't necessarily WANT her sleeping with Ray, but I won't cry foul If she does as things are. If she expresses her feelings for Oliver and then does it, yeah, I'd have a problem. And if/when something romantic happens between her and Ray, please for the love of God PLEASE let it happen after Oliver comes back.

[Password]

The only thing is that Felicity hasn't ever told Oliver how she feels about him one way or the other.

I'm pretty sure that's what they're going for tbh. I've thought about that, and in Arrow land that is a perfectly good reason for her and Ray to get together without backlash. Good luck.

[apinknightmare]

I'm pretty sure that's what they're going for tbh. I've thought about that, and in Arrow land that is a perfectly good reason for her and Ray to get together without backlash. Good luck.

I'm still holding out foolish hope that they'll surprise me, and things won't ever get that far. I want her to be happy, and I'm not one of those people who wants her with Oliver and Oliver only, I just wanted...basically anything other than what they've given me so far between Felicity and Ray.

[Carrie Ann]

I don't have any moral qualms with her dating Ray. I have character-based qualms, I guess. Or logic-based qualms. Or good-storytelling-based qualms.

 

The only thing is that Felicity hasn't ever told Oliver how she feels about him one way or the other. So, it is a little different IMO. I don't necessarily WANT her sleeping with Ray, but I won't cry foul If she does as things are. If she expresses her feelings for Oliver and then does it, yeah, I'd have a problem. And if/when something romantic happens between her and Ray, please for the love of God PLEASE let it happen after Oliver comes back.

 

Here's the way I see it: yes, she's never told Oliver how she feels. She's never told anyone, so as the audience, we're just guessing. But assuming her response to Oliver's death actually is "epic," I would hope we'd get a little more concrete insight into her real feelings for him. And unless she directs all of her grief into rage, including rage at Oliver for dying, then I won't find it at all believable that she would get into any kind of relationship with anyone else. Not for a long time; more time than the show is going to give in the hiatus and BC arc. So I expect to find this entire storyline really hard to swallow.

 

But at the same time, if she doesn't get with Ray until after Oliver gets back, then it's equally irritating to me. Why would she mourn Oliver, and then when he miraculously comes back to life, reject him and run to someone else? I'm not even saying she needs to just immediately be with him, but dating Ray when her feelings for him are obviously going to be a pale shadow of what she feels for Oliver is not believable once Oliver is back, to me. It reminds me of how ridiculous it was for Laurel's primary emotion to be anger when Sara came back to life. That's not how humans behave.

 

And if it's Oliver STILL pushing her away, then as I've said before, what was the point of any of this? We just pick up the Oliver/Felicity storyline exactly where it left off in 307, with no growth, no change, as a result of his death? It just feels like the writers want to put Felicity in this other relationship because they wanna so that Oliver can be forced to see what he's giving up, and they're going to force it to happen no matter what.

 

I'm just...there are some roads they could travel here that would actually be ship-killers for me, and that's a bummer. I would never have believed it, pre-S3.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[SonofaBiscuit]

If the writers won't put Oliver and Felicity together as soon as he returns, I think that the best bet for me would be for Oliver to pursue Felicity and want to be with her, but Felicity would be hesitant about losing him again since she was utterly destroyed by his most recent "death."  Then we could get back to the shoulder touches, hugs, eye sex, etc.  Maybe Oliver can even show up to Felicity's apartment to comfort her when needed.  Really ramp things up until they decide to make a go of it for real like 5 or 6 episodes before the finale.  Because as everyone else has mentioned, if the EPs put them together right before the summer hiatus, I will have to cut a bitch.

[tv echo]

I agree.  It's possible that Felicity could be so emotionally devastated by Oliver's 'death' that in order to function, she compartmentalizes that loss and shuts it away in her mind.  She must force herself to detach those feelings from herself.  So when Oliver returns, she's still in detached mode.  (I'm not a psychologist, so I'm just spinning thoughts.)

 

The only two men in her life before Oliver that she's loved deeply were both lost to her.  Her father abandoned her.  Cooper first 'died' and then betrayed her.  Oliver would be the third.  So she might consciously or unconsciously protect herself by distancing herself emotionally from Oliver when he returns.

Edited January 9, 2015 by tv echo

[calliope1975]

The only two men in her life before Oliver that she's loved deeply were both lost to her.  Her father abandoned her.  Cooper first 'died' and then betrayed her.  Oliver would be the third.  So she might consciously or unconsciously protect herself by distancing herself emotionally from Oliver when he returns.

 

This makes total sense character wise. I would have no problem with Felicity being a bit wary of entering a relationship with Oliver. He's very much push/pull which is confusing for a girl who shoots pretty straight. He should have to show that he's not going to fall on his manpain sword and push her away again. But like many others, I will be way pissed if they get together in 3.23 and have their relationship build over the summer. Fuck that. If I have to watch (or fast forward) Laurel's evolution into BC, you can at least reward me with watching Oliver and Felicity's relationship develop.

 

And a big fat NO to any romantic notions with Ray. 

[apinknightmare]

I agree. It's possible that Felicity could be so emotionally devastated by Oliver's 'death' that in order to function, she compartmentalizes that loss and shuts it away in her mind. She must force herself to detach those feelings from herself. So when Oliver returns, she's still in detached mode. (I'm not a psychologist, so I'm just spinning thoughts.)

The only two men in her life before Oliver that she's loved deeply were both lost to her. Her father abandoned her. Cooper first 'died' and then betrayed her. Oliver would be the third. So she might consciously or unconsciously protect herself by distancing herself emotionally from Oliver when he returns.

Yeah, I'm not expecting Oliver and Felicity to get into a relationship upon his return nor will I think it's strange or OOC if they don't get into one. I hope that Oliver's experience leads him to actively seek out a life with her, and because he's (not maliciously) jerked her around a bit (with the "fake" I love you but not taking it back, the 'don't ask me to say I don't love you' I love you after he told her he couldn't be with her, the 'and you know how I feel about her' after STILL refusing to be with her, refusing to be with her AGAIN while he's talking to her and then finally being honest with her about his feelings right before he goes off to his death), I absolutely expect her to be wary of him.

I keep hoping that even though we missed all the relationship development over the hiatus, we're going to get to see them grow closer over the course of the rest of the season and then HOPEFULLY finally get together without a time jump making me miss the beginning of their relationship because if I miss that too, SO HELP ME...

[Chiny11]

Well frankly I'm preparing myself for a second "lunge" because this show is unafraid of throwing its characters under the bus. If Ray is Felicity's Sara, brace yourselves.

:( :( :-(

I think I just threw up.

[statsgirl]

The only thing is that Felicity hasn't ever told Oliver how she feels about him one way or the other. 

But we the audience know how she feels, so to me it's pretty much the same thing.

 

When Oliver lunged at Sara, he knew he cared about Felicity in some way but it wasn't clear to him how, and she'd never told him she loved him, nor had they ever entertained the idea of a relationship with each other.  But now, Felicity not only knows clearly how she feels about him, she knows he loves her and that they both had wanted a relationship with each other.

 

After all that, I don't see how Felicity could start a relationship with Ray unless Oliver does something horrible when he gets back.

 

I agree.  It's possible that Felicity could be so emotionally devastated by Oliver's 'death' that in order to function, she compartmentalizes that loss and shuts it away in her mind.  She must force herself to detach those feelings from herself.  So when Oliver returns, she's still in detached mode.  (I'm not a psychologist, so I'm just spinning thoughts.)

 

The only two men in her life before Oliver that she's loved deeply were both lost to her.  Her father abandoned her.  Cooper first 'died' and then betrayed her.  Oliver would be the third.  So she might consciously or unconsciously protect herself by distancing herself emotionally from Oliver when he returns.

This makes a lot of sense to me, and if the EPs are smart and they still want to keep Oliver and Felicity apart, this is how they would do it.

 

Corollary:  it would also mean keeping Felicity apart from dating Ray now that he's building a suit to enter the superhero business. 

[apinknightmare]

But we the audience know how she feels, so to me it's pretty much the same thing.

 

When Oliver lunged at Sara, he knew he cared about Felicity in some way but it wasn't clear to him how, and she'd never told him she loved him, nor had they ever entertained the idea of a relationship with each other.  But now, Felicity not only knows clearly how she feels about him, she knows he loves her and that they both had wanted a relationship with each other.

 

After all that, I don't see how Felicity could start a relationship with Ray unless Oliver does something horrible when he gets back.

 

She knows that he loves her but is unwilling to do anything about it. That's what matters.

 

By my count, he's jerked her around (albeit, like I wrote before, not maliciously) five times, at least. He told her he loved her in the mansion - refused to do anything about it AND refused to take it back. He told her he could maybe be with her on their date, then took it back in the hallway. Then in that very hallway told her he loved her by asking her not to ask him to say he didn't. He tried that "and you know how I feel about her" mess after the Cooper situation - wanted to put his feelings out there and AGAIN not do anything about it, told her AGAIN he wanted her but couldn't be with her when he was talking to Carrie Cutter, then finally told her outright he loved her right as he went off and died. 

 

She can love him all she wants, but is she supposed to wait around for him to want to be with her? Even if he comes back and immediately tells her he wants to be with her, why should she believe him? He's given her every indication that he'll back off when it matters. He has her heart - he just needs to earn her trust with it. That's going to take some time. Am I going to fault her for trying to find happiness with someone else in the meantime? Nah. Am I going to hold it against her for trying to be happy when the man she loves is unwilling/unavailable/unreliable? Nope. Do I wish it was with almost anyone but Ray? Absolutely.  

 

I just can't get behind the notion that Felicity only truly loves Oliver if she's willing to jump into a relationship with him the second he says okay despite the fact that he's (repeatedly) given her every single reason to believe that's probably not a very good idea. 

Edited January 9, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

We're partially agreeing.  Felicity has all sorts of reasons for not jumping into a relationship with Oliver and I can completely understand if she doesn't.

 

But I can't buy that she loves him if she jumps into a relationship with Ray right now.  And if she does it because Ray is so much like Oliver but not as messed up, then that's messed up too.

[apinknightmare]

We're partially agreeing.  Felicity has all sorts of reasons for not jumping into a relationship with Oliver and I can completely understand if she doesn't.

 

But I can't buy that she loves him if she jumps into a relationship with Ray right now.  And if she does it because Ray is so much like Oliver but not as messed up, then that's messed up too.

 

I won't buy that she loves him if she jumps into a relationship with Ray while Oliver's gone, but once he comes back, why not? Even if Oliver comes back and is ready to get into a relationship on day 1, why should Felicity risk her heart? I mean, she can date Ray a bit to see how that feels while Oliver works out his business and proves to her that he's ready to get his shit together. I don't see the problem with it, and I don't think that means she loves Oliver any less. I think it just means she doesn't trust him to commit to her the way she wants, but she's going to try to be happy in the meantime.

Edited January 9, 2015 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I don't have any moral qualms with her dating Ray. I have character-based qualms, I guess. Or logic-based qualms. Or good-storytelling-based qualms.

 

ITA. I just needed to quote this because it bears repeating.

 

Because I'm a cynic, I kinda think the writers might also want Felicity to have a present-time relationship with someone other than Oliver to balance out the amount of times Oliver was dating someone else in front of her. It's pretty stupid storytelling -- ESPECIALLY with the way Crazy Eyes is written and acted -- but I can see that reasoning going on in a writers room that had to be told by Stephen Amell that the fact that Oliver had sex with every woman ever in S1-S2 was kinda awful. So now Oliver's a one-woman monk, and Felicity is superhero catnip.

 

This is fairly common, btw. JK Rowling had Ron in a relationship with Lavender because she didn't want his first relationship to be with Hermione, who had more experience in dating than he did at that point. She wanted them to have balanced romance baggage. It works better for teenagers, obviously, but then again, the romance in Arrow is 100% high school, so.

Edited January 9, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

But Felicity's already had an adult-type relationship with Cooper; she's had experience.  And isn't the judgement always that it's okay for the guy to have lots of previous sexual relationships but not the gal so much?

 

I won't buy that she loves him if she jumps into a relationship with Ray while Oliver's gone, but once he comes back, why not? Even if Oliver comes back and is ready to get into a relationship on day 1, why should Felicity risk her heart? I mean, she can date Ray a bit to see how that feels while Oliver works out his business and proves to her that he's ready to get his shit together. I don't see the problem with it, and I don't think that means she loves Oliver any less. I think it just means she doesn't trust him to commit to her the way she wants, but she's going to try to be happy in the meantime.

 

I think Felicity's heart is either involved or it's not.  If it's not, sure, she should date Ray to see what it feels like if she wants.  But if her heart is involved, if it's already lost to Oliver (and I think it is) even though she doesn't trust him enough to be in a relationship with him right now, I don't see why she would date Ray much less sleep with him.  And she must know that her dating Ray would hurt Oliver  and feel like punishing him for not committing to her earlier.  I don't see Felicity as that kind of lacking empathy, vindictive person.  (Someone else, yes, but not her.)

 

Felicity is not the kind of person who needs a man to make herself feel worthwhile.  As she said she's "chronically single", and she turned down a relationship with Barry, presumably because of her feelings for Oliver.  So if her heart is tied up with Oliver, why would she be dating Ray?  AK said that they wanted to give Felicity a choice so that Oliver wouldn't be her default relationship but given what happened in the last episode, to paraphrase Oliver, there is no choice right now.

 

Hopefully this will all be moot in a couple of months.

Edited January 9, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

But Felicity's already had an adult-type relationship with Cooper; she's had experience.  And isn't the judgement always that it's okay for the guy to have lots of previous sexual relationships but not the gal so much?

 

 

I think Felicity's heart is either involved or it's not.  If it's not, sure, she should date Ray to see what it feels like if she wants.  But if her heart is involved, if it's already lost to Oliver (and I think it is) even though she doesn't trust him enough to be in a relationship with him right now, I don't see why she would date Ray much less sleep with him.  And she must know that her dating Ray would hurt Oliver  and feel like punishing him for not committing to her earlier.  I don't see Felicity as that kind of lacking empathy, vindictive person.  (Someone else, yes, but not her.)

 

Felicity is not the kind of person who needs a man to make herself feel worthwhile.  As she said she's "chronically single", and she turned down a relationship with Barry, presumably because of her feelings for Oliver.  So if her heart is tied up with Oliver, why would she be dating Ray?  AK said that they wanted to give Felicity a choice so that Oliver wouldn't be her default relationship but given what happened in the last episode, to paraphrase Oliver, there is no choice right now.

 

Hopefully this will all be moot in a couple of months.

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Just because she doesn't need a man to feel worthwhile doesn't mean there's anything wrong with wanting to share her life with someone - we already know that she wants that. She tried it with Oliver and he pushed her away. And she didn't JUST turn down a relationship with Barry because of her feelings for Oliver, Barry turned one down with her because of his feelings for Iris. I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting to wait for someone who might never be ready and trying to move on with your life, and I don't think she should feel obligated to stay single just because it might hurt Oliver's feelings. He had his chances. Plural - more than one, and he squandered every one of them. She can love Oliver and still try to move on with her life because she thinks it might not happen with him. Just because she loves Oliver (and I honestly have no doubt that she really, truly does) doesn't mean that she should put him and his feelings above what she wants out of life. If she wants to share her life with someone and he repeatedly tells her he can't be that person, I'm glad she loves herself enough to see what else is out there for her, even if it doesn't work out.

 

But I'm with you in that I hope it's resolved in a couple of months. 

[statsgirl]

She did try with Oliver and he did push her away.  It made sense that she would be open to someone else at that point.

 

But if (when) he comes back and is no longer pushing her away, saying "Make it happen with me now", why shut away her feelings for him and start a relationship with Oliver-lite?  We will have to agree to disagree on this aspect. 

[Kordi]

I've really enjoyed reading the exchange between  statsgirl and apinknightmare about the question whether it is o.k. for Felicity to move on with another guy after Oliver returns "from the dead". And I feel so torn between taking the "pro" or the "contra" position. Before I try to sort out my contradicting feelings regarding this issue, let me bracket aside the fact that it is Ray who is the possible alternative love interest for Felicity. (IMO there are many good reasons for her not to get romantically involved with Mr. Crazy Eyes/ Fifty Shades/ Fony Stark...) To make things easier let's suppose there is a kind of "Mr. Perfect" waiting around the corner for Felicity. Furthermore, let's suppose that Oliver - on the very day of his return - sincerely afirms that he now wants to be with Felicity.

 

In such a situation, would it be o.k. for Felicity to decline Oliver's romantic offer and react by saying something that amounts to a statement like the following:

 

"Right now, you want to be with me. That's great. However, why should I believe that you will stick to your commitment when new problems (villains with bombs etc.) arise? Up until now, you've given me every reason to think that you'll back off when it matters. You've to earn my trust first, before we can start a love relationship with each other. It's your turn now to get your sh*t together and prove me that you are really going to be a reliable romantic partner. And until you get that done, I'm free to pursue my own happiness. Now, for me, happiness includes going out for dates and letting myself in for some romance if I consider the person in question and the circumstances appropriate. And since [insert the name of a good Ray ersatz] is nice and I like him, I will go out for dinner with him tonight. Let's see where this will lead". [O.K. this is a very blunt statement, and Felicity would never put it this way, but you get the idea, don't you?]

 

I'm not sure what to say about such an answer. My first spontaneous reaction is more like statsgirl's: I feel bad about such a response on Felicity's part, because she seems to be vindictive and lack empathy. But then, I realize that we as audience know many things about Oliver that Felicity doesn't know so far: We know that he doesn't want to die in the Foundry (see 3x02), that he needs Thea (see 3x03) and that him kissing Felicity is his last thought before dying (see 3x09). In short, Oliver has undergone a personal growth that was visible to us, but not to her. So, an assertion from Oliver's part - after coming back from death - that he really wants to be with Felicity seems much more credible from the audience's point of view than from Felicity's. Given her limited knowledge of what has been going on recently in Oliver's thoughts and feelings I cannot criticize Felicity for having doubts regarding Oliver's "romantic endurance". Therefore, upon reflection, I can understand apinknightmare's position better, and now I feel inclined to agree with her... But I still haven't made up my mind entirely, so maybe statsgirl - or somebody else - will convince me of the contrary again :-)

Edited January 10, 2015 by Kordi

[dtissagirl]

I have to admit, if it were Barry, I wouldn't blink an eye before being all GO GET IT, GURL. My main problem is not Felicity having a relationship with someone other than Oliver. She has legit reasons to NOT want to date him. My problem here is I want her to get a restraining order against Crazy Eyes, and never ever ever breathe the same air as he does again. EVER.

Edited January 10, 2015 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

I have to admit, if it were Barry, I wouldn't blink an eye before being all GO GET IT, GURL. My main problem is not Felicity having a relationship with someone other than Oliver. She has legit reasons to NOT want to date him. My problem here is I want her to get a restraining order against Crazy Eyes, and never ever ever breathe the same air as he does again. EVER.

 

Yeah, I'd rather her choose almost anyone but him. But he's the choice they're giving her and I've accepted it so as to keep my blood pressure at a reasonable level when they inevitably go for it.

[NumberCruncher]

I have to admit, if it were Barry, I wouldn't blink an eye before being all GO GET IT, GURL. My main problem is not Felicity having a relationship with someone other than Oliver. She has legit reasons to NOT want to date him. My problem here is I want her to get a restraining order against Crazy Eyes, and never ever ever breathe the same air as he does again. EVER.

This...because it needs to be repeated over and over again. Kiss all the men, Felicity, but run far, far away from the stalker man.

[jay741982]

Barry is the only guy that isn't Oliver that I would have no problem seeing Felicity date. Barry and her click unlike her and Ray. Don't get me wrong Felicity is a beautiful smart sweet funny badass of a woman and she deserves to have multiple men clamoring for her affections

Edited January 10, 2015 by jay741982

[statsgirl]

Even if Barry weren't hung up on Iris, I think he would take one look at Felicity and Oliver and run far, far away from asking Felicity out because he'd know he was bound to get  hurt.

 

I know Ray has Crazy Eyes and few boundaries and all, but is he really that bad?  (Taking the devil's advocate position here.)  Yes, it was a dirty trick to use Felicity's hacking skills to get QC from Oliver but like Oliver, he did it with the best motive, to make Starling City a good place again and save the city.  (And unlike Oliver, there have been no bodies piling up yet.)    He took Felicity out of her minimum wage retail job and her previous EA job and gave her a position in line with her abilities, a VP-ship and probably a large bump in pay.  He has a habit of pinging her phone when he wants to talk to her but Oliver also gets into a snit when he wants Felicity and she's not there for him.  He also gives her lots of time off whenever she wants it, and unlike Oliver actually notices when she's upset and listens to her.

 

Apart from the impulsivity and lack of boundaries (but he's got nothing on Sheldon Cooper in that regard), Ray is not a bad catch. The worst thing about him is that he's still in love with his dead fiance, which IMO beats being in love with your former girlfriend who is now with your best friend.

[BkWurm1]

I absolutely get why Felicity should be wary of Oliver and he should have to earn her trust but if she's already in love with him, why would she want to go out with Mr. Perfect on paper if her feelings are all tied up with someone else who she IS giving a chance to earn her trust? Is it fair to any of them?

I actually don't have a problem with the casual dating - sure go meet people, get to know them, have fun - but only if we go back a few decades and define casual dating as keeping sex off the table because frankly, as much as it would be nice if it didn't, sex always complicates things and I don't want either Oliver or Felicity or anyone that is seriously hoping to be in a serious relationship to be out there being intimate with someone else while still professing to be in love with the other person.

It IMO cheapens the bond and the professed feelings and is just plain not romantic and while real life might not be, I'm watching a show about a dude that runs around at night in tight leather jumping guys in dark alleys and he's the hero so obviously I'm not looking for gritty realism.

Let me have my swoon worthy romance. Don't make this ugly.

It would be a whole other story if Oliver again rejects Felicity (or she thinks he has) but if he's trying to win her back and she's letting him? No, I couldn't handle her seriously dating even Mr Perfect on Paper. The game changes again if the show does a time jump (please no) and shows Felicity falling for Mr. PoP. Then I could forgive her for not immediately dumping said dude on the off chance Oliver is serious this time.

Edited January 10, 2015 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

I guess the one other way I could handle Felicity dating a Mr. PoP would be if Oliver comes back and while he says he's going to prove himself, she rejects him, says no but he's out to win her over anyway. Then it would be about Felicity trying to move on and that she would have any right to if she's decided she doesn't want to be with Oliver. It remains a little sketchy because we don't believe her but I would believe she thinks she thinks that. I would hate it but I wouldn't hate her...though that still runs the risk of making it look like she's playing with Mr. Pop's feelings....though if that's still Ray maybe no one would care, lol.

[apinknightmare]

I absolutely get why Felicity should be wary of Oliver and he should have to earn her trust but if she's already in love with him, why would she want to go out with Mr. Perfect on paper if her feelings are all tied up with someone else who she IS giving a chance to earn her trust? Is it fair to any of them?

I actually don't have a problem with the casual dating - sure go meet people, get to know them, have fun - but only if we go back a few decades and define casual dating as keeping sex off the table because frankly, as much as it would be nice if it didn't, sex always complicates things and I don't want either Oliver or Felicity or anyone that is seriously hoping to be in a serious relationship to be out there being intimate with someone else while still professing to be in love with the other person.

It IMO cheapens the bond and the professed feelings and is just plain not romantic and while real life might not be, I'm watching a show about a dude that runs around at night in tight leather jumping guys in dark alleys and he's the hero so obviously I'm not looking for gritty realism.

Let me have my swoon worthy romance. Don't make this ugly.

It would be a whole other story if Oliver again rejects Felicity (or she thinks he has) but if he's trying to win her back and she's letting him? No, I couldn't handle her seriously dating even Mr Perfect on Paper. The game changes again if the show does a time jump (please no) and shows Felicity falling for Mr. PoP. Then I could forgive her for not immediately dumping said dude on the off chance Oliver is serious this time.

 

 

Well, in my mind it's not a scenario where Oliver says, "I'm going to make you trust me," and Felicity replies with, "Yes, I will give you the chance to earn my trust," it's going to be something that just sort of happens. Oliver already thinks that she's in a romantic relationship with Ray (MG said so on Twitter). Fighting for her doesn't have to be a verbal thing - Oliver doesn't have to tell her he's doing it. He's said he wants her to be happy, so I always thought he would just gradually show her that he's changed and is committed to her by just being himself - a man who loves her - and the more he does that, the more she'll realize that Ray? He ain't the guy. 

 

I mean, she's kissed Ray. She hasn't had sex with him, she hasn't done anything more than accept a kiss and some comfort from him, and she's offered him her comfort when he was talking about his dead fiancee. Nothing else. And, you know, she's already started the process of trying to move on - just the last episode we found out that she thinks Oliver regrets kissing her. She hasn't confessed her love to him, and maybe she's trying to push it down herself because his repeated rejection of her (and her belief that he regrets pursuing her at all) might just make her feel like in the end she'll just be hurt by her feelings for him. It's a scary, dangerous thing, so...knowing her history and having seen what she's been through with Oliver, it seems natural that she would go for someone safe. She loves Oliver, she just has to let herself do it. If/when she gets with Ray, she'll realize that perfect on paper isn't going to make her happy, that loving Oliver is a risk, and that in the end the risk of getting hurt will be worth loving him. IMO it doesn't cheapen anything at all.

Edited January 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[BkWurm1]

If/when she gets with Ray, she'll realize that perfect on paper isn't going to make her happy, that loving Oliver is a risk, and that in the end the risk of getting hurt will be worth loving him. IMO it doesn't cheapen anything at all.

Yeah your scenario fits with my very last one, where she's trying to move on or already dating PoP. I still would prefer if she could keep what she has with Ray on mission but you present a reasonable scenario, one similar to what I expected this season to be like when the spoilers about Ray first came out.

Edited January 10, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

Yeah your scenario fits with my very last one, where she's trying to move on or already dating PoP. I still would prefer if she could keep what she has with Ray on mission but you present a reasonable scenario, one similar to what I expected this season to be like when the spoilers about Ray first came out.

 

I'd prefer that too, but I'm just trying to prepare myself, if you can't tell, haha. I'll be okay if there's dating after Oliver comes back, but if it's before I'm gonna be...not so pleased. When the spoilers about Ray first came out I really wanted to be on the Ray train. Now? Not so much. 

[Password]

Eh they really went stupid with Oliver dying. Like sex, death complicates things. I agree with BkWurm1 and apinknightmare's assessment of what I thought would happen pre season 3, but the way the show has handled things just made it super complicated. I have very little time for Ray and Felicity in a relationship, but one of my hopes pre season was to see her in a romantic relationship. Just because I wanted to see her react and interact in one.

It'll be fun (hopefully) seeing Oliver gradually regaining her trust though. I hope it works out that way.

[DrSpaceman10]

I love Felicity, but if Ray is going to be anything other than a ship block, he has to have scenes with other characters occasionally. I think part of the problem with Ray is that he's only connected to Felicity as a rival love interest and giving him scenes with other characters would probably really improve his character. I like Brandon Routh, so I hope the show gives him more depth (if they plan on keeping him).

[KirkB]

Ray couldn't be more of an obvious Oliver alternative/ship block if they tried. A handsome billionaire suffering from a great loss who wants to wear a funny costume to fight crime and protect the city. The problem now is they are in a catch 22. In order for Ray to be anything more than that he needs to have screen time and character development but because of the way he's already been done a lot of people don't want to see more of him and could care less about his character development. He's a good idea, on paper, done badly.