Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[insubordination]

 

Thanks BkWurm1. I was having such a lovely ending to my day. now i'm depressed.

I'm just gonna go to the corner and cry.

Ditto. I didn't need that traumatic reminder of Smallville. The 'Arrow' writers have shown themselves to be just as incompetent and stubborn. Smallville lasted 10 seasons, but I didn't as a viewer. I never did warm to Lois Lane or Lana Lang, but even they are better than Laurel Lance.

[Ceylon5]

Ditto. I didn't need that traumatic reminder of Smallville. The 'Arrow' writers have shown themselves to be just as incompetent and stubborn. Smallville lasted 10 seasons, but I didn't as a viewer. I never did warm to Lois Lane or Lana Lang, but even they are better than Laurel Lance.

 

I'm noticing a pattern here - it seems writers should really stay away from characters with the initials LL...

 

And yeah, that post was a real buzzkill, BkWurm1, and I've never even watched Smallville!

[Happy Harpy]

As long as Felicity stays true to her character and remains an intimate partner and friend at the core of Team Arrow, her mere existence would make any attempt at going back to the tainted well of Laurel and Oliver laughable.  If they ever want to try and survive that poison, they have erase Oliver and Felicity's emotional connection.  They could NEVER do full on romantic Olicity and still as long as she is clearly Oliver's touchstone, they know they can't sell Laurel as THE ONE! 

And, if you replace "Felicity" with "Sara" and "romantic connection" with "Black Canary", you get exactly what many of us have been saying since the jacket moment. "No way the audience will accept Laurel as the BC as long as Sara is around".

 

What did the EPs do? They killed Sara.

 

Hence my fear for Felicity, and Felicity/Oliver/Diggle as the core of the show.

 

For me, this move killed way more than a character and goes beyond even the importance of Sara as a character. It meant that no one "threatening" Laurel's status on the show is safe, imo. It's hard to be hopeful and optimistic about the future when you feel that if anything Laurel doesn't work, instead of dealing with it, the writers will cancel (Nikita style) what outshines it. 

[Ceylon5]

For me, this move killed way more than a character and goes beyond even the importance of Sara as a character. It meant that no one "threatening" Laurel's status on the show is safe, imo. It's hard to be hopeful and optimistic about the future when you feel that if anything Laurel doesn't work, instead of dealing with it, the writers will cancel (Nikita style) what outshines it. 

 

Yes, I think this is the exact crux of everyone's anxiety over Sara's death.  It's not just about Sara herself, though that's bad enough, it's about everyone losing faith that the writers will go with what's best over what was originally planned (despite detours along the way).

 

The way I see it, there are really three options at play here.  Either:

1) Everyone's fears are justified and Laurel is end-game in every respect and all other better, original characters and story-lines will ultimately be killed to service her story-line because of her name and therefore comic destiny.

2) This was a trade-off.  Laurel gets something (Black Canary) and the rest of us get to keep the remainder of the better, original characters currently still standing (Oliver/Felicity, Team Arrow, Det. Lance).

3) This is all a giant fake-out.  Sara, with her gift for never staying dead despite all appearances to the contrary, will actually somehow come back.  While this is wildly unlikely, given the lengths they went to to kill her as thoroughly as possible, you never know (TV has taught me that death is one of the least final things that can happen to a person).  If she had some type of drug (Mirakuru-like) in her system when she died, she could theoretically not be as dead as she appeared (it's not like anyone took her to a doctor or anything!), and as everyone pointed out, her grave was not as deeply dug as it should have been and her parents haven't been told about her death.  So, keeping an open mind here.  Never say die, as the saying goes.

 

So, I'd say at this point (2) is the most likely to be true, though I would be delighted if the unlikely (3) happens.  Normally I don't like it when characters don't stay dead, but I'd suspend disbelief and make an exception for Sara because, as we all know, she represents far more than just a good character in and of herself, and killing her off was just an awful, awful idea on so many levels.  I will certainly not keep watching if it becomes apparent that (1) is happening.

[Nagevs]

Ceylon 5, I’m really beginning to think option one is in play right now, I think MG and AK are just biding their time before they kill off Felicity.

 

I think if Laurel’s story is popular and most viewers like her new dynamic with Oliver, the writers will think twice about putting Oliver back with Felicity, and will want to try again with Laurel, with their egos they won’t be able to help themselves.

 

They've readily acknowledged the chemistry between Oliver and Felicity and so they will want to kill her off to make way for Laurel, just like they did with Sara.

 

For them it’s always been about the comics and staying true to the comics, and which fan base is predominantly happy about the show right now?

 

I so want to be wrong but I just don’t trust the writers with characters if they’re not in ‘Comics’ or part of their original 'vision'.

[apinknightmare]

For them it’s always been about the comics and staying true to the comics, and which fan base is predominantly happy about the show right now?

 

But by and large, from what I can tell, they aren't staying true to the comics, are they? I mean, the characters are the same (some of them anyway), but the relationships are different. Black Canary is huge in the comics, and in quite a few iterations she is Dinah Laurel Lance. The showrunners have to manage a balance between the expectations of comics fans and the expectations of their general audience, a large amount of who probably know jack about the comics. Sara worked as the Canary, and a lot of fans liked her, but a lot of fans were waiting for Laurel to take up the mantle. That would've been a huge deviation from comics, and one it so far seems like they were unwilling to make. Yeah, they could've had Sara's middle name be Dinah or some other kind of trick, but the comic audience's expectations were already set with Laurel.

 

To me it seems like they are going with what works for the general audience with Team Arrow and Olicity and such, and trying to go with what will keep some of the comics fans happy, by having Laurel become BC. I think, and have thought since we got the spoilers about Oliver meaning the "I love you" and him asking Felicity on a date that this is all #2, like Ceylon5 wrote - it's a compromise between the OG Green Arrow canon and what is happening organically on the show. As always, I'm not saying Felicity's safe, because who knows what these people will come up with, but they're not killing her off any time soon. I don't think they'll kill her off at all.

[dtissagirl]

There is one thing that gives me a teeny tiny bit of hope about the EPs being all about honoring comic canon: they have just inserted Felicity INTO the comic canon, via the Green Arrow book Kreisberg is currently writing. This was obviously a business decision more than anything, but I can't help but think that it's also an attempt to go against the claims that Felicity doesn't belong in Arrow because comics.

[Nagevs]

they have just inserted Felicity INTO the comic canon, via the Green Arrow book Kreisberg is currently writing

 

Thanks, that's really good to know, as you might of guessed I don't read the comics!

Edited October 26, 2014 by nagevs85

[Carrie Ann]

3) This is all a giant fake-out.  Sara, with her gift for never staying dead despite all appearances to the contrary, will actually somehow come back.  While this is wildly unlikely, given the lengths they went to to kill her as thoroughly as possible, you never know (TV has taught me that death is one of the least final things that can happen to a person).  If she had some type of drug (Mirakuru-like) in her system when she died, she could theoretically not be as dead as she appeared (it's not like anyone took her to a doctor or anything!), and as everyone pointed out, her grave was not as deeply dug as it should have been and her parents haven't been told about her death.  So, keeping an open mind here.  Never say die, as the saying goes.

 

So, I'd say at this point (2) is the most likely to be true, though I would be delighted if the unlikely (3) happens.  Normally I don't like it when characters don't stay dead, but I'd suspend disbelief and make an exception for Sara because, as we all know, she represents far more than just a good character in and of herself, and killing her off was just an awful, awful idea on so many levels.

 

Since this is the Hopes and Fears thread, I'm going to throw in with you and say that I've been harboring a tiny glimmer of a hope about your option 3 as well. I'd give it about a .05% chance, but that's better than none! I've been mentally gathering bits of supporting "evidence," despite my best efforts to let it go for my own happiness. Man, I would love it so much.

 

Also, I'm still harboring some hope that Laurel will go through all this "training" and decide in the end that she doesn't want to do this. And then if necessary, Thea can take up the Black Canary mantle. She was using a bo staff like Sara's when she was sparring with those dudes, right?

[BkWurm1]

Oh, it was ever so unkind to unleash all my darkest worries on you guys, sorry for that.  I did stick around pretty much for all ten years of Smallville (never warming up to either Lana or Lois) and as you can see, it's left me with deep trust issues and insecurities.  Fool me once and all that but I knew the risks of watching Arrow from the start and something about Oliver and Felicity made me willing to risk jumping back in the deep end.  In many ways, I'm counting on Arrow to be my vindication that Smallville should have gone the way other way. 

 

I haven't given up hope that Arrow will make good on it's promises at least on Oliver and Felicity since anything it made with Sara was clearly ripped away in the season two finale when they let Sara skip off to Assassin camp to Laurel's manically gleaming grins.  I lived in denial all through the summer.  I told myself that a season's worth of characterization can't be wiped out in a two minute exchange but apparently she was a dead bird flying even then. (Caity Lotz knew then Sara wasn't long for this world). 

 

It's true, losing Sara really shook me up.  It was done in such a reckless manner.  They went all in on Laurel as BC and that level of fanaticism kind of scared the crap out of me.  I will continue to wish for a number 3 solution, fear a number 1 solution but hope and cling to the number 2 trade off. 

 

I mentioned one of the big things that was shaking my faith was Arrow not doing subtle and the lack of big overt commentary on the state of Olicity, well what apinknightmare wrote over in the Relationships thread was very comforting to me.   

 

Just in The Calm alone though they had Diggle telling Oliver he was fooling himself if he tried to pretend he didn't love Felicity, they had him flat-out tell her that meeting her got him on the road back to being human again, they had her cradling a freaking sunflower in the aftermath of the explosion, they had him tell her that he couldn't tell her that he doesn't love her, and then they had that damn light saturation after the kiss. This show is like anvils to the head every five minutes, but they can do subtlety - they just choose to bat you over the head with heavy things most of the time.

 

I should probably prescribe a rewatch of The Calm to myself (minus the last part of course, my poor Sara) every time I start wigging out. 

 

Again, sorry about inducing fits dark corner weeping.   

[statsgirl]

Ceylon 5, I’m really beginning to think option one is in play right now, I think MG and AK are just biding their time before they kill off Felicity.

 

I think if Laurel’s story is popular and most viewers like her new dynamic with Oliver, the writers will think twice about putting Oliver back with Felicity, and will want to try again with Laurel, with their egos they won’t be able to help themselves.

Even if AK and MG are biding their time, I think the executives at CW and WB might have something to say about it.  

 

As Alan Sepinwall wrote, the show changed fundamentally when they inserted Felicity into it.  The primary force in the show became Team Arrow rather than various characters plus Oliver/Diggle.  Television is a business, and I really believe that if the show hadn't been Team Arrow centered, it wouldn't have been picked up for a second season. Even with the show almost certain for a s4 pick-up (because then it could be syndicated), I doubt Laurel will ever be as popular as Felicity is and it's stupid to kill the golden goose.  Network execs are more likely to kill a show but refusing to change or develop it than by messing with what is working.

 

I'm leaning toward it being #2 right now, that they are trading off making Laurel the BC in exchange for O/F as the main love interest, and really hoping it's #3. But if it is, we won't see even a hint of Sara until Laurel is established as the Black Canary.  However, I don't trust AK and MG one bit.  Logically, they should keep Felicity but that's no certainty.  They may kill her for maximum Oliver angst next season (in which case I hope EBR goes on to a major show).

 

My other bit of hope is that David Ramsey has been pushing the Diggle/Lyla and Oliver/Felicity parallels this season.  True,  he's only an actor and doesn't know beyond the next bit of time but it seems daft to have O/F be the hallmark relationship for Oliver if they're planning to put him with Laurel in the end?

[Orion]

Bringing this over from the Felicity thread.

 

What I fear for Felicity is what I fear for Diggle -- as the only two main characters who aren't now and probably won't be superheroes, I'm afraid they will be considered lesser beings because they're just smart, loyal, grounded and complex characters.

 

I think this is exactly what has me so annoyed with the direction they went with Sara. I've been having a hard time figuring out why I was so upset. I didn't love Sara but her death shook my faith in the show and I couldn't quite figure out why. I think this is exactly the reason.  When the show runners brought on both Felicity and Sara and made them fit perfectly it renewed my faith in them, that they were willing to use the comics as a starting point and expand their TV world to include what was working.  That the story would not be hamstrung by who has what name and what their comic destinies are. The story could flow organically and they would be willing to roll with it.  Killing off Sara in favor of the right name reversed all that. Now I'm looking at the story with less excitement because so much that could happen is off the table. I no longer feel like I have to tune in every week to see what will happen with the characters, will Thea turn evil, can Slade redeem himself, will Diggle finally get his own superhero identity, because it seems like name triumphs good story telling. If this is a show with predestined end points and the story just comes from how they will get there for all the characters then I'm not really invested in that. I'm not invested in how certain characters become their comic counter parts. I want the possibilities of the TV characters writing their own destines.

 

And that leads me to be very fearful for Diggle and Felciity, these are the only two with out name agency in the story, they have no predestined characters to become. As long as Sara was alive I could believe that their names didn't matter, that the awesome characters they are would be enough to for them to discover their destiny, now I'm concerned that it gives the writers an excuse to sideline them in favor of their superhero action figures. Apparently without the right names there is no value in a character, no matter how well that character works.

 

I actually read a fans blog all excited about how Laurel talked to Felicity because somewhere in the future Oliver and Laurel will be out kicking butt while a pregnant Felicity runs the coms back at ops while Diggle watches over her and if that's where they are going by giving over the love interest title to Felicity could they let me know because I want to not rage watch that.

[Happy Harpy]

I wish it was option 3, but I'm afraid that part of the reason Sara was killed so graphically and callously is a statement from the writers that she's dead-dead-dead and buried six, seven, eight feet under. The character died twice already, but this time there's a body -a body which was, again, exposed graphically and callously to those who watched 3x02. Imo, the viewers who preferred her as the Black Canary would never had let go of any remote possibility that she was still alive, had the show let the slightest ambiguity exist. Hence, no leeway was left.

 

I believe that option 2 is the official word this season. Official, only. Because let's see the facts:

-the character of Laurel was indeed cleared the path to the BC, literally over Sara's dead body.

-Oliver loves Felicity. Yet 1) they broke up before they even got started 2) they now barely interact 3) when they do it denies their closeness 4) Felicity spends most of her airtime with a character who is defined as a love interest for her.

What a great trade off for non-Laurel fans, or O/F fans (Sara fans got the short end of the stick anyway)...oops, sorry, was there too much sarcasm dripping?

 

So yeah, I believe that no-so-secret option number 1 is still on the table, and they're trying to re-establish Laurel as the "leading lady" this season; before trying to re-establish her as Oliver's soulmaaate. But there's one silver lining. If it fails again -I will take that to the Laurel thread- then maybe, just maybe, I can hope to be definitely rid of her.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[BkWurm1]

I hated clicking on the like button cause I hate what your post is saying, Happy Harpy, even if I can't help but see it as a real possibility.

 

I don't think Felicity is going to ever get killed off, she is too popular for that but they don't have to kill her off if they kill off the relationship.  It's kind of a semantics thing but it's always bothered me that the show runners have phrased what they are doing with Olicity as honoring what the fan have seen on screen, like they are paying lip service to it before moving on and you have to admit, it's kind of diabolically clever to end a ship by embracing it but as long as they left Felicity and Oliver in status quo all those little emotional beats would just grow and grow.  By acknowledging it and stopping it, they give themselves in story reasons to take away all those wonderful emotional beats.

 

I'm not sold on them actually pushing though option 1, but they currently have the framework in place so they COULD try that if they wanted and it even being an option is horrific. 

Edited October 26, 2014 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

I actually read a fans blog all excited about how Laurel talked to Felicity because somewhere in the future Oliver and Laurel will be out kicking butt while a pregnant Felicity runs the coms back at ops while Diggle watches over her and if that's where they are going by giving over the love interest title to Felicity could they let me know because I want to not rage watch that.

If it were a choice between that and Felicity killed off, I think I'd actually prefer Felicity dying because then I could stop watching this show.  

Watching Laurel in the field with Oliver while Diggle and Felicity are benched -- just no.  Already one of the comments that came up more than once after Corto Maltese was of  course Laurel is going to call Felicity to find the abusive boyfriend, that's Felicity's job, to provide that kind of information and tech support to Team Arrow, which Laurel is now a part of.

 

I don't think Felicity is going to ever get killed off, she is too popular for that but they don't have to kill her off if they kill off the relationship.

I don't think she would work nearly as well as a character if they end her relationship with Oliver.  She's funny speaking to other people but it's the contrast with Oliver's stoicness that elevates both characters.

Edited October 26, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

 

I believe that option 2 is the official word this season. Official, only. Because let's see the facts:

-the character of Laurel was indeed cleared the path to the BC, literally over Sara's dead body.

-Oliver loves Felicity. Yet 1) they broke up before they even got started 2) they now barely interact 3) when they do it denies their closeness 4) Felicity spends most of her airtime with a character who is defined as a love interest for her.

 

But they've interacted once since Felicity told him she wasn't going to wait around for him. She went to work for Ray Palmer, and Oliver took off for Corto Maltese. Oliver comes back and Felicity takes off for Central City. They've had one episode of this new normal and they're not going to be together for 95% of the next episode from the looks of it (but she won't be around Ray Palmer, either). Like...give it some time. We have almost nothing to judge post-date Oliver and Felicity on. If it's still like this in 3-4 episodes, then start to worry.

[BkWurm1]

My problem is that the writers are the ones that have set them up not to interact.  That's a deliberate choice. 

 

It is too soon to give up hope that everything is going to be fine, but is it ever too soon to panic??  ;)

Edited October 26, 2014 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

I think we have to wait till 3x05 to see what the New Normal really is like.  02, 03 and probably 04 are really about dealing with the changes for Laurel and bringing Thea back,  I don't know how much the lack of Felicity in 04 is because they want to write her distant from Oliver or EBR was too busy filming the Flash episode.

 

By 3x05, she'll be back in Starling City and Oliver will be back in his usual mission mode.  Hopefully that will let us know how they're going to be after the bomb and Oliver deciding not to hide out in the lair.

[DrSpaceman10]

  I don't know how much the lack of Felicity in 04 is because they want to write her distant from Oliver or EBR was too busy filming the Flash episode.

 

The Flash is almost an episode ahead of Arrow in terms of shooting schedule (so The Flash was filming 1x04 while Arrow was filming 3x03). So EBR wasn't too busy filming The Flash to be in 3x04. I think The Flash episodes take place at the same time as Arrow episodes (ie: in the same week) so it wouldn't make sense for Felicity to be in Central City and Starling City at the same time.

[BkWurm1]

Ok, point taken about why she would be light in episode four.  Put that on their pre-premier concern that they would need Felicity's popularity to bring in some viewers to The Flash.  I think it's clear already that it CAN stand on it's own but I'm good with tying up some loose ends.  I am looking forward the crossovers as well and I'll have to remind myself not to judge the interaction too harshly during those episodes either since there will be so many players in the room. 

 

So yeah, episode five, six and seven have a lot to prove.  I'm crossing my fingers that five might force Oliver and Felicity to smooth things over and at least put a patch on their torn relationship. 

 

I'm also crossing my fingers that there isn't too much in episode 4 that props up my worries about option one.  The timing of Laurel's "rise" is bad for my sanity. 

Edited October 26, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Happy Harpy]

 

But they've interacted once since Felicity told him she wasn't going to wait around for him.

The break-up I was talking about is the one in 3x01, and this scene where she tells him she won't wait in the Arrowcave is 3x02, right? The one I'm so happy I didn't see (argh! not thinking about it!). I stopped watching after 3x01, so I don't remember as well from the reviews/comments as when I've seen it, and I didn't realize there were so few interactions  (it makes the grand number of 2, then?!) between them since, but...

 

 

My problem is that the writers are the ones that have set them up not to interact.  That's a deliberate choice.

Yeah, that's another source of my fears. It wouldn't have been so jarring if nothing important had happened to them but for me, Oliver and Felicity not finding solace in each other, after the events of the season finale where it was clear that they were part of each other's support system, is a simple nonsense in my eyes.

Having Felicity share with Ray instead of Oliver was as deliberate, imo.

All those signs make me think that I might not like the plan they have for S3.

 

I really hope that the EPs were just testing the waters and that it revealed unconclusive; so that I can soon watch again and have my weekly dose of Team Arrow greatness and smile at Felicity/Oliver scenes.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[apinknightmare]

My problem is that the writers are the ones that have set them up not to interact.  That's a deliberate choice. 

 

Right, but it's not as if there isn't a good narrative reason for things to be weird between them. Twice now Oliver's told Felicity he loved her while not being able to (for what ever reason) commit to her, Felicity told him that she wasn't going to wait around for him to die and then made good on that, and Sara died and Oliver vowed to find her killer - a mission which it seems Oliver is throwing himself into at the moment. So, their distance to me is warranted and normal and IMO necessary if they're going to come out of these first few episodes in a good place - a LOT has happened. Now, if the writers start making them have stupid little tiffs that result in the cold shoulder for eps on end, then I'd worry.

Edited October 26, 2014 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Right, but it's not as if there isn't a good narrative reason for things to be weird between them. 

I'm waiting to see what happens up till the Christmas break but while there is a good narrative reason for things to be weird between them, it's also true that AK and MG provided said narrative reason at exactly the time Sara died and they really needed to be there for each other.  Oliver especially needs Felicity since his once again SO just died.

 

Oliver may not be 'in' to Laurel, but she is the one he is hugging and supporting each other.

[apinknightmare]

Oliver may not be 'in' to Laurel, but she is the one he is hugging and supporting each other.

 

Well, to be fair Oliver and Laurel were only hugging in the episode after Sara died, and Oliver was supporting her - he didn't allow anyone to support him (Felicity did try, and while he was very candid and emotionally open with her, I think at that point in time, being only a day or two after Oliver broke things off, it's understandable why they didn't touch each other, even at a time like that). And since they're stupidly keeping Sara's death a secret, Oliver was the only one around who even knows Laurel well enough to be able to offer her comfort in that way.

 

I'm not sure how much comforting he'll be doing for her now that she's decided she wants to go vigilante.

Edited October 26, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

Not to mention that in at least one of those Oliver comforting Laurel scenes, he's staring at Felicity. Then there's also the "I don't want to die down here" which is a direct emotional connection to Felicity, not Laurel.

[olicityfan25]

Why I liked Felicity and Sara together was because they worked at it. The actors did. It just doesn't feel right (iykwim) between Laurel and Felicity.

[Guest]

I have the same fears as everyone else about Oliver and Felicity but I'm willing to give it a chance because we've only had three episodes, one of which they barely interacted. There was no time to have any meaningful moment between them. If we reach episode 7 or 8 and they are still behaving like nothing has happened, then we might have cause to worry. Until then I'm trying to be patient.

 

Because I can't forget what they set up at the beginning of the season. They've taken Oliver and Felicity's undefined relationship and given it more weight. Oliver was honest with Felicity, willingly. He gazed at her longingly when she was with Lyla and the baby. He remembered small details about their first meeting and tied this - her - to his humanity. These are all huge things that you can't easily dismiss with the introduction of a love interest or a few awkward hugs with Laurel.

 

One of the EP's said that Felicity represents a whole other life to Oliver and this is exactly what was established in 301. A relationship with Felicity is what he truly yearns for. So right now things are off track and the characters are distant but I wouldn't really expect anything else after everything that happened. They came so close to being happy together and then everything was blown apart. When they went on that date they opened that door between them - that possibility for something more - and it's not going to close and go back to normal so easily. So the awkwardness and distance feels wrong right now because we're not used to Oliver and Felicity behaving that way but it's still a human reaction tbh.

[KirkB]

I think some people may be overreacting a bit to the distance between Oliver and Felicity right now. First Oliver had just openly admitted his feelings for Felicity when someone tried to blow him up for being the Arrow. Felicity nearly got killed literally because she was with him, so of course in his single minded reasoning he decides to push her away. While still trying to deal with all this (plus the fact someone is stealing his company out from under him) he comes back to his supposed safe place (the lair) to find out Sara is dead. His grief is compounded. He's angry and scared and unable to let Felicity near him even though she's just trying to help him grieve. Then he learns his sister is not where she said she was and his growing fear of losing more of the people he loves he needs to go find her. That's a lot for him to deal with in the span of, what, a couple of days? As has been said by others, if this is still going on near the end of the season those of you who are Olicity fans will have more to worry about.

Edited October 27, 2014 by KirkB

[BkWurm1]

Right, but it's not as if there isn't a good narrative reason for things to be weird between them. [ snip]. So, their distance to me is warranted and normal and IMO necessary if they're going to come out of these first few episodes in a good place - a LOT has happened.

 

I have the same fears as everyone else about Oliver and Felicity but I'm willing to give it a chance because we've only had three episodes, one of which they barely interacted. There was no time to have any meaningful moment between them

 

 

.I'm still watching and waiting and I completely agree the narrative supports how they are acting.  Maybe the extra distance (literally with her going to Star City for a few days) is partly being pushed so they can try to slip in some actual romance between Felicity and Ray.  And if that is what happens, I'll still be here hoping that it remains a temporary situation because the story being told basically demands that what was ripped apart is put back together.  Jennifer Crusie called it a kind of a contract between the viewer (or in her cast the reader) and the writer.  Promises have been made to the audience and if they are not honored, well, it would be jarring to say the least. 

 

My ongoing problem is that TPTB might be entertaining the idea that promises were made just by introducing Dinah Laurel Lance.  I think what happens in the show should hold more weight than what sometimes in certain comics in the past in other continuities that Arrow clearly isn't following have once upon a time indicated. 

 

But Sara is dead.  :(  I feel so bipolar.  Even within the same post I'm wavering back and forth between hope and despair.  I probably should just stop thinking about this for a while, either that or just assume everything will be fine.  Worrying it won't isn't going to change anything.  I'm not going anywhere unless there is absolute proof they are sticking to option one. I've dumped all my darkest fears, maybe next time I can be the one unloading all the reasons why we have nothing to worry about.   

 

I need chocolate. 

[Password]

I think it's OK to freak out somewhat at the interaction between Oliver and Felicity because it's very different to what we're used to. But as much as I hate on Oliver I have to give the dude a chance to handle his business. Yes it's odd seeing them not comfort one another but it's more odd seeing Laurel give Felicity orders in the foundry (I'm sorry I had to).

 

For now, things will be fairly uncomfortable to watch I'd wager, and even more uncomfortable to see

Ray Bans flirt with Felicity (YMMV) or worse see her flirt back!

(although I think I'd be far more intrigued by that tbh). But I hope this really bad period will rise and make them even closer (if not what's the point). Right now I think I need to sit back and grimace through this somewhat unpleasant time, but hope there's light at the end of the tunnel, because

DR compares Oliver and Felicity to Dyla.

Heeeey.

[statsgirl]

This show has too many tunnels.  There was that mess in 2b, and only 3 1/2 episodes (1/2 being The Calm) to enjoy before the next tunnel hit again.  It's like a ride in a fun house, but not so much fun.

[Password]

I think it's because we don't feel we can trust the writers and EPs. I've seen people say they hated that Carter was killed in Person of Interest but they still trusted where the story was going. I'm not sure the same can be said for Arrow because the show repeatedly does things that shake our trust. Case in point: killing Sara in the episode after everyone thought she'd die in such a graphic manner.

[KirkB]

Sara's death was worse because of HOW they did it. A lot of us expected it to happen, and even the reasons it would happen, but most of us thought it would be later in the season and probably the result of a bigger arc that would, of course, bolster Laurel. Instead, they brought her in as a surprise for the last five minutes of the season premiere, apparently for the express purpose of killing her in just about the most humiliating way possible.

[Password]

Exactly, I was surprised she died so early and in such a graphic manner. I thought there'd be more of her before she eventually died. 3 arrows in the stomach was one thing. It was the falling off a building, smashing into a trash can and into the floor that was so graphic. The timing of her death was surprising, to me.

[Ceylon5]

I wonder where the storyline with Oliver and QC is headed, once Oliver gets back to a place where he decides he wants to fully embrace his Oliver Queen-ness once more?  I hope that he doesn't ever become CEO again, partly because he's neither qualified nor sufficiently interested to do the job justice and partly because I never, ever want him to be Felicity's boss again.  Also, I think part of the reason he didn't mind not winning the bid for QC was because it's never really been his thing.  He ran QC because he felt obligated, but I think that now that his parents are gone, he's free to redefine who he is more in line with his real self rather than what his birth-right dictated he should be, do and have.

[apinknightmare]

I wonder where the storyline with Oliver and QC is headed, once Oliver gets back to a place where he decides he wants to fully embrace his Oliver Queen-ness once more?  I hope that he doesn't ever become CEO again, partly because he's neither qualified nor sufficiently interested to do the job justice and partly because I never, ever want him to be Felicity's boss again.  Also, I think part of the reason he didn't mind not winning the bid for QC was because it's never really been his thing.  He ran QC because he felt obligated, but I think that now that his parents are gone, he's free to redefine who he is more in line with his real self rather than what his birth-right dictated he should be, do and have.

 

I'd like Oliver to have a controlling interest in QC again, but to realize that he has absolutely no business running that company. If he wanted to get involved in it, it'd be nice if he recognized that he needed to learn a lot and maybe started an internship of sorts to learn the business on his own and sort of work his way up. If he wants to commit himself to crime-fighting 100% I'd be okay with that for now, but I'd like to see him plan out the rest of his life and start think about what that looks like when he's no longer able to suit up.

[KenyaJ]

I'd like Oliver to have a controlling interest in QC again, but to realize that he has absolutely no business running that company.

 

Agreed. I actually don't mind him being CEO, but the writers would have to put in the work to get him to that place, and I'm not sure they're interested in that or that there's anything to mined narratively from him being at QC again. But I want him to still have an interest in the company so he can get his money back and move into a big boy home. Living in the foundry is more than a little bit pathetic.

[DrSpaceman10]

But I want him to still have an interest in the company so he can get his money back and move into a big boy home. Living in the foundry is more than a little bit pathetic.

 

Guggenheim said on twitter 

that Oliver would get his own place this season.

[Password]

We wonder with what money. Maybe he gets a day job. How fun.

[statsgirl]

If Ray does a good job at QC, Oliver will have money from the stocks he still holds.

 

But no more CEO of QC, please.  It's like 19 years olds with PhDs running a company on soap operas.  Felicity is better qualified to run QC than he is.  Even Thea is since she had some actual business experience with Verdant.

 

Isn't there a mayor position open in Starling City?

[apinknightmare]

If Ray does a good job at QC, Oliver will have money from the stocks he still holds.

 

Isn't there a mayor position open in Starling City?

 

Won't Oliver only get money from the rising stock prices if he sells his shares? I'd think he'd want to keep hold of however much of that he could. I also don't know why I'm trying to make sense of the financial aspects of this show.

 

I think there is a mayor - didn't MG say that we'd find out who it is in 3x05?

 

Also, I read somewhere that

Thea uses Merlyn's money to rent or buy an apartment and Oliver doesn't approve. I wonder if maybe he moves in with her? Although, that wouldn't be his own place, so...maybe not.

[statsgirl]

I don't think there is sense to be made of the financial aspects of the show.  But wouldn't Oliver get dividends from the stock going up?  Maybe only quarterly but it might be enough to live on if he's frugal.  On the other hand, probably not enough to pay for the Arrow toys.

 

I don't think Oliver would want to live with Thea, wherever she lives,  as long as she doesn't know about his night time activities.    It would be impossible to keep that a secret, especially given how nosy Thea is. 

[Velocity23]

Would Oliver really want to live somewhere that was bought with Merlyns blood money?

[apinknightmare]

Would Oliver really want to live somewhere that was bought with Merlyns blood money?

 

Well, he's never struggled with living off of QC money, and that company has been (and apparently still is) up to no good, so it's not as if all of his money was ever earned on the up and up. Although I'm sure he'll be all hypocritical about it and give Thea a hard time if the plot warrants it.

 

I don't think he'd want to live in a place where he'd be beholden to Merlyn, I was just throwing it out there as a possibility.

Edited October 27, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Velocity23]

Yeah but it didnt effect Oliver personally. But with how Merlyn was responsible for the Gambit sinking. Then Tommy dying. I dont think he would go anywhere near Merlyns money.

[ban1o]

Yeah but it didnt effect Oliver personally. But with how Merlyn was responsible for the Gambit sinking. Then Tommy dying. I dont think he would go anywhere near Merlyns money.

agreed. Oliver wouldn't go anywhere near Merlyn's money. BTW this should go in the spoiler section probably lol. 

[apinknightmare]

Yeah but it didnt effect Oliver personally. But with how Merlyn was responsible for the Gambit sinking. Then Tommy dying. I dont think he would go anywhere near Merlyns money.

 

Isn't the company that manufactured the earthquake machine (and the second one, and the one that Milo Armitage tried to get his hands on) still a QC subsidiary? So, yeah, it kinda did. But, that's not really the point here, haha.

 

I didn't think he would do it in a "Hey, that's great, let's be roomies!" kind of way, but like he wanted to be around to look out for her if she insisted on doing it kind of way. But yeah, that scenario is unlikely. I'd much prefer it if he got his own place like a big boy.

Edited October 27, 2014 by apinknightmare

[TanyaKay]

Agreed. I actually don't mind him being CEO, but the writers would have to put in the work to get him to that place, and I'm not sure they're interested in that or that there's anything to mined narratively from him being at QC again. But I want him to still have an interest in the company so he can get his money back and move into a big boy home. Living in the foundry is more than a little bit pathetic.

 

In case they decide to move Ray Palmer to Flash or some other spin off next season, they should totally make Felicity the CEO. I mean she looked delectable in that CEO chair and she is smart enough to know what to do and who to hire to do what is required.

[Starfish35]

That would really make her the Pepper Potts of this show. :)

[wonderwall]

I don't really want Felicity to be the CEO. She has zero qualifications for this position just as Laurel is unqualified to be a lawyer and a vigilante basically. Head of the tech division? Sure. But not CEO.

Edited October 27, 2014 by wonderwall