Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[Genki]

Now that Oliver is Interim Mayor [and I assume legit Mayor by 5.01] I really like the idea of Quentin being his deputy mayor (someone suggested it somewhere over the last few days). For me it could work for so many reasons. 

• Since LL was outed as the BC, QL can be the "Official Liaison" to the  Team Arrow for the city
• He could still be the Law enforcement connection as well, also the precinct set can be re-purposed to the mayors office
• He could cover for Oliver when he needs to go Arrowing
• Good way to keep him tied to the plot and to Team Arrow, beyond just Donna

For Felicity, I found it strange that they didn't indicate where she was professionally when the season ended, even though I loved her final words. Hope she continues to work to effectively give people to affordable access to the bio-stimulant, over the summer, in offscreenville, with CH. Also if she is starting her own company, she can set up shop in Oliver's old campaign headquarters. 

I would like Thea to get her own thing to do away from the mayor's office, I wish that they had let her keep Verdant, but I assume the set got repurposed and also the with lair moved, maybe the campaign office could be turned into a bar that she runs?

As for Diggle, I'm just in wait-and-see mode to find out how he ends up back in SC. Also I'm curious about his new mask.

[Morrigan2575]

Didn't they kind of hint at it in this episode or the previous one? Something about "they'll give you the company back"? 

[lemotomato]

She's not starting her own company, at least not as far as EBR knows. I think someone asked her about Smoak Technologies at COH2 and she said she doesn't think it'll happen within the realm of the show.

[Genki]

It wasn't definitive enough for me. I just assumed because the PT sets were going to SG (is this definite?)Felicity may not get the CEO position back.

[Happy Harpy]

I want S5x01 to be about Diggle gone MIA and Oliver, Felicity and Lyla getting him back, while Donna and Lance (who acts as liaison) babysit baby Sara.

I know that it was probably eveybody's first  thought as soon as we saw Diggle in his uniform (after "holy shit, he reenlisted?!") but I want it so, so bad. After those two years of Because Comics parasiting my OTA, I want the Fab Three to find their way back to each other and I want it to be grand. I want pay-off. And what better pay-off than having a trope scenario taking life onscreen and be ten thousand times better than you imagine? Because OTA scenes are always ten thousand times better than I imagined.

Donna babysitting Sara would be pure fanservice because cuteness. Maybe it will be as cute as a Trixie scene on Lucifer (er...OK, almost as cute. Trixie being the avatar of cuteness and all).

Also, Thea needs her own team. I will not stop saying it, she's Moira and Malcolm's (yeah, I know...) daughter and she needs to realize her full potential, she deserves better than being mere additional brawn to OTA. I dig the sibling love between her and Oliver but she works better on a parallel track for me. I want the Thea who hated lies and hypocrisy back. She would be on OTA's side, but with a different approach and it could make for complex situations; for example with Oliver having to take more factors into account since he's the mayor while she'd be all kickass-kickass-kickass. And she needs Roy. She's at her best with him and they're my babies. Plus, Roy could be the "floater" between Thea's team and OTA.

And since it's that time of the year, I have to ask for WALTER. Please get him back. Felicity building her own business with Walter's help is my fangirl dream.

I'll be willing to forget about the rage-quitting level BDM if  Oliver/Felicity getting back together is as good as Oliver/Felicity getting together from 2x01 to 3x01 (minus the exterior elements like the swapping sisters thing). I want "there was no choice to make" 2x07 level of romantic scenes. The chemistry is here, the feelings are here, there's not a chance she's leaving...use that! They say that Oliver/Felicity eats the show anyway, so as well make it true and enjoyable for those who love those two. I'm just saying!

[Morrigan2575]

11 minutes ago, Genki said:

It wasn't definitive enough for me. I just assumed because the PT sets were going to SG (is this definite?)Felicity may not get the CEO position back.

AFAIK that's just pure fan spec. So far there's nothing that indicates SG is getting the PT sets or really any Arrow sets. Not that they won't I just haven't seen anyone related to the shows/network saying it.

[nksarmi]

I like Mayor Oliver because one of the biggest things I personally miss from seasons one and two is something going on for Oliver outside of Team Arrow. Season one had the best balance of this is Oliver Queen and this is the Hood (and I didn't think that guy was so bad to be honest). Season two was kind of ok with him trying to be CEO and failing miserably - I did like the fun bits of Thea running the club and having no idea the lair was under it.

I think the show lost a lot of enjoyment for me in season three when Oliver's entire life became all about being the Arrow. No wonder he was so happy if freaking Ivy Town - he needed something besides the lair in his life. And I needed something besides the lair in the show.

This season has been slightly better because at least Oliver was running for mayor and he had the whole idea that he could be someone who goes out in the daylight too. If season four has been all about how he is at war with himself - then maybe season five can be all about finding balance.

I will appreciate Oliver having to ditch his security team to go be the Arrow. Oh I just thought of the best use for Quentin in season five - he should be the head of Oliver's security team!!!! He can so help cover his ass! (I know people will say Diggle, but I think they are going to have to assign Diggle to Argus to get him out of the Army in any kind of believable way so I'm sure he can work with Oliver but not as a civilian - because seriously, you don't re-enlist for five months unless he joined the reserves and then I don't know why that would have bothered Lyla so much but I digress....). Anyway, I have images of Oliver running into the back of a building in a GA suit while Quentin hands him a tux and says come on, you're supposed to be giving a toast in five minutes! Anyway, that stuff makes Arrow more fun for me.

[lemotomato]

28 minutes ago, Genki said:

It wasn't definitive enough for me. I just assumed because the PT sets were going to SG (is this definite?)Felicity may not get the CEO position back.

Sorry, I think I brought that spec here. Not substantiated by anything at all, just my own worries about resources and space on the lot. 

[BkWurm1]

Part of why I so enjoyed Oliver and Felicity being a couple were the scenes of them being at home, away from the action.  They had a few of Diggle and Lyla but I think the only one with Laurel and Thea was when Laurel was going to take her to the "spa" and then when Thea was sick.  Once with Quentin but that was actually just set up for Oliver's confrontation with him.  Sometimes we just need normal to counter balance the action. 

I think the show usually manages to have a balance in the first half but forgets about it after the winter hiatus. 

[KirkB]

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think the show usually manages to have a balance in the first half but forgets about it after the winter hiatus

 

That's the problem with the whole winter hiatus thing. Stopping in the middle of the story kills any momentum they might have built up to that point and tends to make the whole production lose focus. It happens to almost every show nowadays but Arrow seems to suffer particularly for some reason. Which is why the first half of the season tends to be set well and the second half comes unglued.

Edited May 28, 2016 by KirkB

[Morrigan2575]

i kind of wish Arrow would follow Once Upon A Time's model. Basically divide the season in half and tell a self contained stories in each season.  I think that might be easier for the Arrow Writers to handle.   As it is, these guys pretty much only write for 3 episodes, premiere, MSF and finale.  Everything else is either filler or setup for those episodes. 

Edited May 28, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

i kind of wish Arrow would follow Once Upon A Time's model. Basically divide the season in half and tell 2 self contained stories in each season.  I think that might be easier for the Arrow Writers to handle.   As it is, these guys pretty much only write for 3 episodes, premiere, MSF and finale.  Everything else is either filler or setup for those episodes. 

When you think about it, they are already dividing up the season, but just in a much more choppy way.  The first 7 episodes are mostly set up and establishing episodes. Filler with direction. Then we hit number 8 for the crossover and that could be just about anything.  The ninth episode is the one that goes into the hiatus and usually gives us some kind of pay off of one or more aspects of the story while also setting up a cliff hanger for us to angst over for the long winter hiatus.

The next 10 episodes (10-19) are often all over the place in story and quality.  They deal with the aftermath of the cliffhanger but also really get moving toward the "bad thing" (culminating usually around episode 15 ) followed by the "goodbye" (18-19) before trying to actually focus and get back on track for the final 4 episodes (20-23).  

It's 11-19 where they get so lost.  1-9 aren't perfect but they are usually cohesive and of course set up is easier than payoff.  The episodes in the middle are always hit or miss and almost always full of nebulous dread of various degrees.  Stuff happens, sometimes really good stuff but so often it's dreary and depressing or at least surrounded by the dreary and depressing.  And worse yet, we start treading water and stalling while in this nebulous dread/depressing section.  We marinate in it and wallow in the very part of the story I'd want to be over.  It's all the drama and angst and it's never any fun.

Which is ironic because the parts of the show at the end that I want to spend more time on exploring, they usually zoom right through. There really should have been a whole episode dealing with the fallout of not stopping the nuke.  In season three they admit they should have spent more time exploring Oliver being turned by the LoA.  They had the time but they squander it. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by BkWurm1

[dtissagirl]

They do divide the season in 3 parts in the writers room, at least wrt how they break the story, and how they pitch arcs to the network: 1-9, 10-15, and 16-23.

The problem is what @Morrigan2575 is talking about -- they decide on story beats that need to arbitrarily happen at specific points in the season, and then they spend the episodes in between writing plot driven shit towards those beats.

And sometimes NOT WRITING anything, which is also plot-driven, like with the lunacy of the baby mama drama being completely not written into the show for five episodes [409 to 413], until it was time to bring it back, because they had already decided this particular shit pie needed to be served in 415.

Edited May 28, 2016 by dtissagirl

[KirkB]

35 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

And sometimes NOT WRITING anything, which is also plot-driven, like with the lunacy of the baby mama drama being completely not written into the show for five episodes [409 to 413], until it was time to bring it back, because they had already decided this particular shit pie needed to be served in 415.

Yeah, but the larger problem there was hardly anyone (I won't say no one because I don't know if that's true) wanted the baby mama drama to begin with, so if it had been written into more of the episodes it still wouldn't have gone over well.

[dtissagirl]

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

Yeah, but the larger problem there was hardly anyone (I won't say no one because I don't know if that's true) wanted the baby mama drama to begin with, so if it had been written into more of the episodes it still wouldn't have gone over well.

It shouldn't be written into more episodes. The whole of it took 3 episodes: 408, then 414-415. There was the thing about Malcolm knowing whatever episode that was too, but that was a 10 sec moment in a scene anyway. They should have done it in consecutive episodes. 

[TimetravellingBW]

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

i kind of wish Arrow would follow Once Upon A Time's model. Basically divide the season in half and tell a self contained stories in each season.  I think that might be easier for the Arrow Writers to handle.   As it is, these guys pretty much only write for 3 episodes, premiere, MSF and finale.  Everything else is either filler or setup for those episodes. 

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

When you think about it, they are already dividing up the season, but just in a much more choppy way.  The first 7 episodes are mostly set up and establishing episodes. Filler with direction. Then we hit number 8 for the crossover and that could be just about anything.  The ninth episode is the one that goes into the hiatus and usually gives us some kind of pay off of one or more aspects of the story while also setting up a cliff hanger for us to angst over for the long winter hiatus.

The next 9 episodes (11-19) are often all over the place in story and quality.  They deal with the aftermath of the cliffhanger but also really get moving toward the "bad thing" (culminating usually around episode 15 ) followed by the "goodbye" (18-19) before trying to actually focus and get back on track for the final 4 episodes (20-23).  

It's 11-19 where they get so lost.  1-9 aren't perfect but they are usually cohesive and of course set up is easier than payoff.  The episodes in the middle are always hit or miss and almost always full of nebulous dread of various degrees.  Stuff happens, sometimes really good stuff but so often it's dreary and depressing or at least surrounded by the dreary and depressing. 

3 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

They do divide the season in 3 parts in the writers room, at least wrt how they break the story, and how they pitch arcs to the network: 1-9, 10-15, and 16-23.
 

It's definitely in the episodes 10-15 part of the season that they get lost and usually default to filler or pointless drama that could be removed from the overall story without much impact. In Season 2, it was Lance Family Drama, in Season 3 it was the Black Canary arc, in Season 4 it was Baby Mama Drama. Imo none of those things impacted the overall story or were enjoyable. It's like they put off all the stuff they don't care about, realize they have to deal with it so shove it in that five-episode arc and try to forget about it by the end of the season. 

I'd be interested to see how Arrow would go if they split the season into two distinct arcs, 11/12 episodes long each. I'm originally from the U.K and TV series are much shorter over there, and imo shorter seasons often mean the writing is more efficient, story arcs are more tightly plotted, and there's less room for pointless drama. (Not that there isn't terrible writing over there too, but pacing problems aren't as prominent.) In the U.S where networks still go for 23 episode seasons, splitting it in half basically means two seasons for the price of one. Obviously writing can still be poor, but I feel with Arrow if they had to write towards a conclusion mid-way through the season, and then start a new story in the second half that would force them to get rid of superfluous aspects in the mid-season section.  

Edited May 28, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[BkWurm1]

Since I feel like the first 9 episodes usually are ok, I'm not sure if just splitting the season in two would fix the issues.  And of course one of the bigger issue it the show's absurd need to have a "bad thing" each year.  It's not that there shouldn't be problems, but why do the problems have to be interpersonal?  Why can't the bad thing be an external force?  Why does it have to be emotional melodrama?   

[Thundercatmary]

For me I think the biggest problem is they seem so plot drive. I mean look at what they all do, being vigilantes is dangerous and dramatic all on it's own. I think that's why 4a worked so much better for me, sure issues should and would come up with O/F coming back, but they had to make almost everyone act OOC to make the BMD happen, and that's because it was plot driven and not character driven. 

[dtissagirl]

The problem is, I have absolutely no hope Arrow will ever stop being plot-driven. First because Guggenheim really seems into ~gotchas and ~twists and ~PSYCH! as the way to drive storytelling. And the thing is, these are staples of comic book stories [which are soap-operas for boys], but the problem is this writers room is not really that good at connecting the dots between the gotchas. Which is kinda hilarious when there are a bunch of ACTUAL prime time soaps on TV doing the exact same thing right now, and they manage to not fuck up the set up for their OH MY GOD WHAT moments.

But the main thing is that this kind of plot-driven action show is "in" right now. Hollywood has a term to sell this kind of crap to advertisers: they call it "high-octane dramas". And they are currently super hot, and one of the culprits is actually Berlanti produced Blindspot. And, you know, stuff like Quantico, and The Blacklist. Look at the amount of high-octane stuff was picked up for next season. Timeless. Time After Time. Designated Survivor. The 24 revival. The Prison Break revival. The Blacklist spinoff. It's always the same shit: amidst the stunts and explosions and running against the clock, someone is not who they really seem to be. Someone else has a ~secret that can ~omg ruuuuin everythiiiiiing~. Yet another someone is put into an ~impossible situation that might ~chaaange everythiiiiiing~. It's hot right now. And Arrow is the one superhero show that Berlanti Co decided would fit that mold.

Edited May 29, 2016 by dtissagirl

[tv echo]

Regarding the suggestion that the show divide each season into two mini-arcs (one before and one after the mid-winter break), I can see that happening maybe only after S5 ends. They've tied the flashbacks to the present day in terms of themes and so far, they've had a general theme for each season.  The EPs have said that they've always had a 5-year plan for the flashbacks.

So, beginning with S6 (assuming the show is renewed), I agree that the EPs should consider the two mini-arcs per season approach, with only occasional episodic flashbacks for a particular character and only if the flashback fits within and enhances a particular episode.

But even that will require the EPs to change their seasonal approach on a fundamental level.  They've said that they plot out each season with a beginning, a middle and an end.  And SA recently said in an interview: "Every year really is like a new film. If you think of it that way, in that you got a new villain, you have to add new elements - you add new characters, you take things away, characters change, characters mature, you have a different slot of directors. And so a season can really pop. A season can be a little bit lackluster. But you never know."  So instead of making "one film" each season, they would have to develop two mini-"films" each season. (Video of this SA interview was posted on page 404 of the Social Media thread)

Edited May 30, 2016 by tv echo

[looptab]

I think that depends on the network, though. Once and the other shows on ABC are able to do that because the network schedules the season that way - a longer winter hiatus, and no breaks between episodes. If the CW still keeps the wild scheduling, it won't matter that they divide the season in two arcs, they will always lose momentum at the wrong time.

[kismet]

I think I was the one that suggested QL as deputy mayor. I actually would like QL as Mayor and find some other job for OQ to do. But that's just a random hope of mine. Since I can't imagine writing 23 episodes of OQ as Mayor is going to be entertaining.

As for the split seasons, I can see it working in later seasons. But I think s5 is going to have to stick with the whole season arc thing because of the flashbacks. I actually wonder if s6a, we will get some flashbacks of OQ growing out his beard and returning to the island for redemption.

I honestly think the writers just need to plot out their plots better. Or maybe fill out their plotlines better. I've also said it multiple times, they need to get someone outside of the writers room to read it and tell them when they are moving too far from the target. I know there are networks and other bigwigs that read it, but they all have an agenda with the show. The writers need a non-biased but still emotionally invested person reviewing their plans. Someone could have pointed out there were flaws with how the BMD was playing out. It's not a coincidence that so many people find issues with the same plot devices.

I actually think how they approach the big mystery or the big bad is the key to a season's success. In s1, they unfolded the mystery gradually. In s2, they unfolded Slade and his plan, until they hit you in the face with it. S4, faltered because they introduced a good villain, let him twirl his mustache and then did nothing with him. I also think they need to maintain a balance between all the elements. S1&2 had a balance between real life & Arrow life. S4 did better at trying to find balance, but lost it at times from episode to episode. S3 never had balance.

I have more faith in s5 because I think Arrow does not have to spin-off anything and everyone seems on board with making it Arrow again. Arrow is best when its trying to be itself not a knock-off of Batman or the Flash.

[way2interested]

Kind of a random hope, but I hope s5's theme is about motivation to kind of tie-in with the idea of going back to basics or with "everything that's old is new again." Like, every character can go through their own introspection about why they want to be heroes and what makes being on Team Arrow worth it for them.

• Oliver, after doing good as Oliver Queen the mayor and slowly eradicating crime as GA hypothetically over the summer, can go through an arc of deciding if continuing being the GA for the rest of his life is something that he wants/plans to do or if he ultimately wants to retire and just do good as Oliver Queen. Not a balancing issue like s3 or s4, more like a where is this going question for Oliver, where Oliver has to figure out his own goals for the future. 
• Diggle, after ultimately losing the initial reason of joining Team Arrow in the first place, can go through an arc of figuring out why he would want to go back to fighting crime or to Team Arrow especially considering the context of losing his initial motivation for joining Team Arrow
• Felicity, after having time to mull over Havenrock, can go through an arc similar to Oliver's in trying to figure out if being on Team for an indeterminable future is something she wants, given that working on the team has brought a lot of harm despite good intentions countering with some possible other lifestyles (working at Palmer Tech or some other business) might bring more good without casualties
• Thea can finally try to figure out some motivation for being Speedy, using everything that has happened to her and try to channel that into bettering the city rather than for adrenaline/blood lust, with perhaps
  Spoiler

  Roy's appearance in s5 being used to parallel Roy's initial motivation for joining Team Arrow with Thea's new need for motivation

•  Lance can figure out if Star City and helping the team is even something he wants to do, given that pretty much everything that ties him to the city is gone, with perhaps
  Spoiler

  Sara's and Lady Cop's reappearance having something to do with Lance's motivation to stay

• Curtis can decide if helping Team Arrow in secret from his husband is worth the risk/stress/secrecy, and if his desire to give hope to his city and really help it is really enough
• Along the way they could be developing motivations/reasons for Oliver and Felicity to get back together in a romantic light

Then, whoever the villain of s5 is can work on destroying the team's motivation one-by-one, kind of like Slade's monologue in 209, to leave the team and Oliver scattered so that he/she/they can do the evil plan. To parallel, the flashbacks would be about Oliver trying to find purpose/motivation in his life after leaving the island once again, fulfilling the promise to Poppy, and getting tied up with the Bratva (ending with him deciding to go back to the island to get rescued to go back to right his father's wrongs). 

It's whatever, but I do wonder where we're going from here thematically, since even before SDCC last year I saw dozens of predictions about one of the themes being "family," which s4 did partially follow.    

[kismet]

Part of me hopes they ditch the themes in s5. I feel like being beholden to the themes in s3 & s4 is how we are stuck with MM as a family figure. I also feel like its why we had no OQ/FS scenes in s3 because the writers had to show OQ deciding between the 2 sides of himself. I also think its why they kept on harping on blood being so important throughout s4, when really other things are more important and the show never got around to telling us that because we had to learn that light can defeat darhk and OQ is only a skirt away from being the next Tinkerbell.

So while I encourage them to think what it old is good/new again, I think they should focus more on developing their characters and their stories instead of developing their themes. That being said, I actually wonder if next year's theme is going to be HOME. Every member of TA somehow finds their way home. Dig comes back to TA & his family. TQ finds herself and chooses her new path. RH comes home to SC. MM finds his way into a new power sect. And FS/OQ find home in each other.

[kismet]

Was reading on the LoT forum and people were talking about how SL has more years of actual physical training with LoA and OQ spent a lot of s3 running around HK. Let's face it he wasn't getting a whole lot of training running around the island in s4. When he came back in s1, he was a fine tuned weapon, I do wonder how they are going to get that to happen in s5 FB. S4 was heavy on the guns and not so much on the hand to hand combat. So it is a valid complaint that OQ does have so unaccounted training to make up for. I would have thought ARGUS would have trained him up, but they just threw him out of a plan in s4.

I wonder if there is going to be an underground Fight Club in Bratva which is how OQ learns more hands on skills. I can't imagine the Bratva has formalized training for its operatives like the LoA, but perhaps maybe they do. Or maybe will just get references to OQ offscreensville training with ARGUS before they drop him in Russia.

Personally, I would like to see less guns, missiles and bombs in s5.

[Password]

I feel like S5 flashbacks will be HEAVY on the training montages and fights because at this point there's no way Oliver's the fine tuned weapon he was in the pilot. Probably an assassin of some sort for the Bratva.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I hope next season's big bad will be tied in some way to Oliver and have a plan that for once didn't involve destroying the city/the world for no apparent reason but more along the lines of taking away what Oliver has, especially now that he is sort of in a good place. I think it would be more intriguing.

I also hope that they won't introduce him right away like they did with Darhk so that when he appears he can feel like a real threat from his first scene until they take him down.

I'd like a first part of the season with a villain of the week formula while the characters also have time to rebuild their lives and the team and when they seem to have finally achieved that a big threat that they can face together.

[kismet]

I was actually thinking about this on the commute home, I don't remember a lot of s1 FB today - but I do not believe they were intricately linked to stopping the Undertaking. They linked backed and connected, but more just told us about OQ. However, I do not think it was like s3 or s4, where they set-up how to take down the Big Bad's plan in the FB. S2 is an exception, because the Mirakuru was both something that needed the set-up and the cure had failed in the FB, so it wasn't a redo in the present day finale. Plus Slade turning on him, was just poetic and well-acted.

Part of the reasons, I think FBs became tedious is because we know they are simply stalling until the last episodes to actually introduce anything important. You can Ffwd through them, because there is nothing important until the last 3rd of the season. They need to somehow use the flashbacks to do more than just introduce the Big Bad's plan or how to take it down. S1 & S2 worked because it gave us an actual storyline and character development/introduction. They need to somehow make the s5 Bratva FB relevant, but not by making it paint-by-the-number this is how we solve the Big Bad Finale problem. 

[Genki]

If there must be flash-backs, non-linear flash-backs might be best. Just something to contrast with the present day and not every episode and not always Oliver's story. But I doubt it would happen until after S5. I was disappointed he didn't go with Argus because various mission for Amanda Waller could have easily incorporated this.

[TimetravellingBW]

Even though the S1 flashbacks didn't connect to the Undertaking, they still felt really effective and needed because there was such a contrast between present day Oliver and past Ollie. Present day Oliver was this stoic, ruthless killing machine, while past Ollie was the biggest wimp to walk to earth. Given S1  mostly focused on Oliver's relationships with people who knew him in the past and were trying to understand how he'd changed so much - Thea, Moira, Tommy, Laurel - the flashbacks felt important in connecting to Oliver's character development, even if they didn't connect directly to the plot. You cared because you realized how much he'd changed and how much that impacted the people around him. 

Since then S2 connected effectively with the plot and imo continued with Oliver's character development. S3 only connected to the present day plot near the end and briefly touched on some of Oliver's development (with Waller teaching him to torture and him deciding not to go home etc.) S4 you could skip everything except the final few episodes where the idol turned Poppy evil and that's it. No major plot connections and no development of Oliver's character. This is meant to be his journey into the one man army "the Hood" in S1, but S4 didn't contribute anything to that, personality or training wise. Which is a shame because they had a great chance to contrast an Oliver who is happier and more optimistic than he's been in years in present day versus him going darker and more cynical than ever in the flashbacks. The flashbacks need to connect either to Oliver's character development or to the present day plot itself *fingers crossed for Russia*

Edited June 1, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Angel12d]

Yeah, I really hope they fix the flashbacks in s5. I expected Oliver to go really dark the last couple of seasons but we haven't really seen any of that tbh. I think this season especially wasted the flashbacks a lot. Oliver should've had no qualms with killing and if they wanted him to really lose his trust in people, maybe he could have started to trust #Poppy but she betrayed him and had been evil/playing him all along. That could've been the last straw for Oliver and the start of the Oliver we saw in the Pilot. 

They have a lot of work to do in s5. I expect a few training montages and lots of killing. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Angel12d

[TimetravellingBW]

Exactly, if anything the darkest we saw flashback!Oliver was at the end of S2 when he stabbed Slade in the eye, blamed himself for Shado's death and lost Sara again. In S3 he took a gap year in Hong Kong and....learned how to do his own laundry? In S4 the most relevant thing he picked up was a magical tattoo.

#Poppy being evil and betraying him could have been more effective and interesting. If we had better writers, they could even have connected those past trust issues to why he hid William from Felicity/everyone in present day. (Of course if we had better writers they'd have skipped BMD altogether. But still).

Edited June 5, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[looptab]

Are you kidding? He said a couple times he was a monster. :D 

[TrueMyth]

We are supposed to view his torture of the general at the end of season 3 as a sign of how dark he has become.  They did make the torture a through line from Waller teaching him to that prisoner he tortures on the island.

The problem is, they can't be too graphic with torture for network and character reasons, and they dropped it after the island guy.  Plus, maybe I'm socially maladapted myself, or our Quantanimo Bay has me exercising too much tolerance for it already, but I don't see torture as THAT evil.

[bijoux]

I wouldn't say that it's a rating problem. Oliver got tortured plenty in S1 and S2 flashbacks and those hit me right in the center. He got whipped this season, which is NOT a small deal, and I felt nothing. The scenes lack spark, that's the issue, not a lack of gore IMO:

[kismet]

I think @TrueMyth brings up a valid point that they cannot be too graphic. It is network TV and it is the 8pm timeslot. There are times I wish it could get moved to 9pm because they could do a little more with all the scenes. But if I was the CW, I would not move them from their slot where they consistently get the same ratings. I just wanna move them for a better show that fits my desires and the CW does not have that as the top priority.

It's funny because Arrow loves to tell us rather than show us so many things... and yet fail at even telling us the bad things OQ has done. Perhaps thought that is why OQ keeps on saying he is a monster, maybe that's their solution. I honestly think they should have had us believe that he killed Poppy and not reveal until weeks/months later that he actually let her live. That way his charade of working with the bad guys could have been more believable that he was perhaps doing bad things with less coercion. That he was perhaps being tempted by the bad side.

There are many ways they could tell us that he did bad things. I think walking out of rooms covered in blood it pretty network benign, especially if you have people that go in after and shout in shock. It might be easier with the FB if they put him in a leadership role and he just signs off on mass tortures & killings. That way he is not stopping it but they also don't have to visually show them.

However, I think the biggest problem is that the writers really have a hard time writing OQ as a bad guy. They just can't commit to it. They try to do all these bad guy things in FB and with Al-Sha-Him, but they back track them the next scene or the next episode. Its ineffective storytelling. I want to see OQ conflicted about doing bad things, however that's not what the writers convey. What they convey is flip-flopping. One minute for plot he's bad, but then he's good for the other minutes. They really need to change their mindset and allow OQ to be bad. Their kneejerk reaction is to always reel him back when he starts to become too dark or evil. They need to stop that and just let the line go. Redeem him in the present day, but let him falter and wallow in the darkness in his past. We don't need two simultaneous hero journeys. He just needs to get to a place in the FB where he wants to change for the better.

In s1/s2 they used the FB to reflect how things in the present day occurred which made sense because the characters crossover from FB to PD. But in s3, there was no real connection between PD & FB, so they tried to create the connection via OQ which was a bad decision. So they started fumbling in s3 FB because OQ in FB seemed to reflect more where OQ was in PD. It was either a tactical error or unforeseen consequence of bad writing choices. He went from going down a dark path in s2 to walking down a light path in s3 trying to save Maseo's family. Also they should have had Maseo betray him in s3 to help support his PD trust issues. It only got worse in s4, when they introduced him in FB as a vigilante. It just was impractical & unrealistic. They should have shown him committing petty crime to survive, a little B&E. It really set a bad & awkward tone for the s4 FB. He was way too similar as a character in the FB & PD.

I honestly don't even know if they can right the path back to darkness. Nothing about s4 indicates to me that OQ has gone down a dark path that leads him to the man we meet in the pilot. They mishandled Poppy's role. He never should have been trying to save her. He should have been trying to use her or she should have been manipulating him. Not a mutual let's save the island and look at pictures. Even his kills in s4 FB were all self-defense or explainable by circumstance. I hope they fix it for s5, but I'm keeping my expectations very low. Because there is no realistic way I see OQ walking down any dark path at this point. I just hope he is surrounded by really horrible people and forced to do bad things to survive. So that I can explain his behavior in the pilot & s1/2 as PTSD. And people's obsession with OQ being "dark" and trying to find the "light", is their misguided attempt at fixing PTSD by watching too many Disney movies to solve the problem, rather then seeking professional help. Because after 4 seasons of FB, I'm having a really hard time understanding why OQ think he is so "dark" and a monster. He has lived through tragedy and witnessed/done some pretty awful things not by choice. It is not an internal darkness that he harbors - it just a lot of emotional scars and poor coping mechanisms/strategies.

[Sunshine]

I think the problem with the flashbacks is the keep trying to tie them into the present instead of just progressing his fall down the rabbit whole.  It worked well in S2 but that was because the Oliver/Slade relationship had been established in S1.  S3 the only real dark choice was torturing the general.  I am not sure there was even a dark choice in S4.  Killing Poppy was a version of "for the greater good."  He spent most of the time trying to save her and everyone else.  It seems like they have a lot of ground to cover in S5 to get him to pilot Oliver which seems like more time needs to be spent on flashbacks. :-( (Don't want!) 

[kismet]

If the flashbacks are well-casted and well-written, I wouldn't mind them taking up more time than they do presently. Leave the present day arcs for FS, Dig, TQ & QL. A quick few shots of OQ going to meetings is all we need to fulfill his PD. Well that and O/F, but that's a whole other can of worms right now. TA can fight in the present, but it doesn't have to be the focus every episode.

I really have no desire to watch OQ be mayor if its going to be like his mayoral campaign which was Sleepy Town w/ Tebow-light. There is no way they can make OQ running SC be entertaining. Unless they put the villain in there like Blood and do some double crossing & back stabbing. But even that gets old after a few episodes, especially if they devote too much time to it. It spoils the fun, if you have the double cross revealed too early or for too long. Or in the case of IR, if you waste a good actor on an underdeveloped role.

The s4 FB were horribly cast and the writing was even worse. But hopefully with s5 FB they can do better. I'd rather watch some evil twisted character manipulation in the FB with some intense 1 on 1 stunts, then watch another boring group stunt fight in the present - especially if they main villain group is anything like the ghosts again which were so formulaic & repetitive. 

Edited June 5, 2016 by kismet

[thegirlsleuth]

Even if they are perfectly cast and acted, I don't think I'm ever going to like the flashbacks.  They are always going to stop the forward momentum of the A plot and action and I will always find it dislocating.  I think having to send Oliver to a dark place will screw with viewers perception of him in the present and they are flinching--Oliver torturing the general at the end of season three was pretty dark, and it felt like they backed off from that. I also think that they have a problem with Oliver having romantic relationships because it has the feel of him cheating in his present committed relationship, although that might just be Stephen Amell. I have wondered if the lack of chemistry in this year's flashbacks was Amell noping out of the romantic relationship in the only way he could.  He hates womanizing Oliver, and while I think most viewers could make the distinction that this was old Oliver, a certain segment (which I suspect includes Amell) would find it emotionally unsatisfying.

[kismet]

After the frustration with the talk about BC/BS coming back the other day, it got me thinking I don't really care if she comes back or not. But I would be pissed if she did come back because I have a list of people I'd rather see come back before her.

Out of sheer curiosity, I was wondering if you could bring back any other "dead" Arrow character to the show on a recurring/regular basis who would it be? And to make it happen which current Arrow star would you sacrifice to make that resurrection happen?

For me ~

1. Moira -  I would sacrifice Thea or MM to get her. I would say Curtis, but I don't think he's a worthy enough exchange for MQ.
2. Tommy - I would sacrifice Curtis &/or Roy to get him. Can we just make Tommy alive, but like Roy living in another city? I would sacrifice Quentin for TM, but I do think it's important to have a regular parental figure & QL is all we have left.
3. Isabel - I'd actually sacrifice Curtis as well for her. Her story was cut off too soon. SO I feel like we could being her back & not sacrifice someone as well.

For the other Villains, I don't need most back right now. Although, I would take a lot of them back before I would every want LL back. I'd even want Ras back before LL.

When it boils down to it, the only people I would not sacrifice to get anyone back is Oliver, Felicity & Diggle. The Trio needs to remain intact & alive.

Lastly, They need to bring back Bad MM. But if they brought back Moira, I could deal with MM in any form they would like.

Edited June 9, 2016 by kismet

[apinknightmare]

I don't want anyone who's dead to come back. It's tired at this point. 

[dtissagirl]

I don't want anyone to come back, I just want Malcolm to die. Forever. Quickly. In the very first scene of 501. Yes, please.

[bijoux]

Co-sign. Dead should stay dead. I wish Moira hadn't died, but not that she comes back. If it wasn't for bad blood, I'd wish for her appearances in flashbacks, but that's it.

I want a new Count, one who is a worthy heir to the original. And I want Anatoly. I want him so badly that I'm convinced I'm gonna jinx it, so he'll show up and it will be a let down.

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, no more coming back from the Dead. 

[kismet]

I didn't actually mean for the people to come back from the dead. I wasn't advocating for characters to come back from the dead. Especially since all of those actors have moved on. It was more just an exercise in who you wish could still be on the show. If you could go back in time and switch out a character for another.

Sorry for the confusion.

[TimetravellingBW]

3 hours ago, kismet said:

Out of sheer curiosity, I was wondering if you could bring back any other "dead" Arrow character to the show on a recurring/regular basis who would it be? And to make it happen which current Arrow star would you sacrifice to make that resurrection happen?

For me ~

1. Moira -  I would sacrifice Thea or MM to get her. I would say Curtis, but I don't think he's a worthy enough exchange for MQ.
2. Tommy - I would sacrifice Curtis &/or Roy to get him. Can we just make Tommy alive, but like Roy living in another city? I would sacrifice Quentin for TM, but I do think it's important to have a regular parental figure & QL is all we have left.
3. Isabel - I'd actually sacrifice Curtis as well for her. Her story was cut off too soon. SO I feel like we could being her back & not sacrifice someone as well.

Ooh, I like this game.

Well for a start I'd trade any dead character (apart from Laurel) for Malcolm. No questions asked. 

1. Moira - I'd trade quite a few characters for Moira: Curtis or Quentin or Roy or even Thea. (Though I'm not sure I could stand hurting Oliver like that again). And that's saying a lot because I really like all of those characters and would be sad to see them go. But Moira just brought something more to the show. She's also the only character I'd bring back for real, not just hypothetically. Yes resurrecting characters is tired and overdone, but I'd make an exception for the long-term benefits MQ would bring.(But if the show was going to resurrect her then it needed to be before Laurel died, as her death is all "death means something" again).

2. Tommy - I'm not sure I'd trade anyone to bring him back, much as I love him. His death still continues to mean something and I wonder if he'd run into the writing problems of where does he fit into Oliver's life. He couldn't/didn't want to join Team Arrow, doesn't have any useful skills, he's too wonderful and pure for this world to go evil or even shady, so aside from being the link to the elite in Starling and another friend for Oliver I'm not sure what his long-term role would be. (Unless he pops back having mysteriously gained some medical skills in Chicago....) He'd probably work in a recurring role, but then is a trade worth it? I'd consider trading him for Roy, but Roy had a defined role/skill set, and I'm still holding out for Thea/Roy. Hypothetically, if Moira was back and now we have Donna, I'd trade Quentin for Tommy, as then the show would be good on parental figures. And if Curtis and his hero story gets too much attention next season, I'll trade him for Tommy. 

3 - No one for Isabel. I never quite got her popularity (I didn't know of Summer Glau beforehand so wasn't all hyped up). She served her purpose as a one-season junior villain.

4 - Sin. She's not dead, but is definitely a character I'd love to bring back as a recurring/regular. I'd love to see her working with Thea (and Roy if possible) next season. Maybe she and Thea have just ended up hanging out, or maybe the trio have set up some community outreach thing (inspired by Laurel if you so wish show) which helps the downtrodden and gives them eyes on the streets, or maybe she and Thea are street fighting partners. I feel like that relationship would be a good route for Thea.

5 - Does this work for flashback characters too? Because I'd have traded #Poppy for Shado all season. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[bijoux]

@TimetravellingBW, I too didn't find Isabel all that engaging, although she was certainly more so than some villains. And it would be awesome to have Sin pop back in with commentary on the current events in SC.

[TimetravellingBW]

@bijoux Exactly. I thought Isabel was good as a one season villain, but wasn't too bothered apart from that. And I really liked Sin and her view on SC, she felt like a window into it's people and the issues on the ground that we lost after S2. Her returning I feel would be a reminder of why Team Arrow is fighting for the city. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[tv echo]

I asked the Magic 8 Ball the following questions and got the following responses...

Will Laurel return to Arrow?
"Most likely."

Will Katie Cassidy return to Arrow?
"My sources say no"

Edited June 10, 2016 by tv echo

[kismet]

I think Isabel being part of Slade's revengenda took away a lot of potential that she should have had. S2 had a the right amount of villains, but the fact that they were all connected in the end I think diminished them. It became all about Slade. Where Blood & Isabel could have reeked havoc for a little longer. I would have liked to see Isabel get more screentime and be more a force to be reckon with because I think Arrow needs to get more female villains. Making her a deputy of Slade just undercut how powerful she could have been. I don't think she could be a season's big bad. But I think she could have been more of ongoing force to reckon with like China White was for a few seasons.

I also think that the part of the reason DD got boring after awhile was because it was just him or the forgotten VOTW. Having an ongoing or recurring Villain that pops up erratically but unconnected to the Big Bad I think helps show feel more realistic and less paint by numbers. Otherwise its just a predictable countdown to episode 23.